Spring Airlines

[radarvector320]

Anyone know anything about this place? Heard they just roasted a foreign pilot for a minor altitude bust. He lost his whole safety bonus for the year of $12,000 US. Unbelievable. Pretty good money but it's all end-loaded bonuses. I think there are better options with more time off and the pay is paid up front...

[USMCProbe]

I Don't know any pilots personally, but know some that know some. They said it is a good outfit. So far they have been paying everything, although I don't believe any pilots have been there long enough to get the "big bonus" at the end. It is a 3 year contract and I have only seen it advertised for a little over 2 years. I could be wrong.

Several of us looked at it and decided against it for the same reason. Too much bonus at the end.

[radarvector320]

It's nice to see that other companies in China are paying more monthly rather than dangling the proverbial carrot at the end of the contract. I think people are happier this way and while some Chinese airlines feel that end loading the bonus at the end of the contract is the way to keep pilots I feel it has the opposite effect... I think Spring will have a tougher time recruiting new pilots now that other airlines have seen the light....

[USMCProbe]

Yeah, I will take my money up front as well. Most of the new contracts that I have seen written in China have more money monthly, with a small annual bonus, and maybe some of the other things paid every 6 months.

All of us doing this are on our own separate contracts. If someone really wanted to fly for Spring, but didn't like the big bonus at the end (me), they can attempt to negotiate something different. That would be my choice, and if Spring wanted you, they would probably bend.

[radarvector320]

Good stuff. They may have to bend or lose guys to better contracts. The "here fishy fishy" might not work anymore....

[nearsight]

The bonuses are having the opposite effect the Chinese hope for. They hoped to breed loyalty. In reality people only see the 13.5k they get monthly. The rest is on a wish and a prayer given the Chinese attitude towards written contracts. Dont expect to see any of it. An effort to have the bonuses monthly was rejected.

As stated above a foreign pilot here was just fined 12,000USD for an altitude bust. Fines for being 5 minutes late. Fines for missing jeppesen plates. Fines for "heavy" landings. Fines for rate of descent. Fines for taxiing fast. QAR's are for salary rebates to the company. Fines for just about anything they can think of, and you need not have been PF for the event. Safety has very little to do with it.

Outrageous medicals. Perfectly fit pilots will fail medicals regularly. Both at initial and again at renewals. Little recourse when you do. You will be breathylised regularly at check-in and possibly have your blood pressure checked too.

Training flights. You will spend the first 6-8 months at least in training (100-400hrs Pilot Flying). This consists of regular 4-sector 16hr+ days (3 pilots) with you in the jumpseat for half of it (doesnt count for hours). They use foreign captains as safety pilots for new f/o's. There is no training. A Chinese captain often with little english will just conduct the flight completely as he sees fit with you sitting in the left. When you're in the jumpseat all operations are conducted in Chinese. You are still liable to be fined for cockpit mess-ups when sitting in the jumpseat.

Simulator sessions are conducted many times a year (on days off, not duty days - and in Zhuhai). Each time any Chinese airline (or high-speed Train)has an incident, all pilots in China are sent for retraining. These are in addition to your recurrent training. Each one is full-jeopardy, even the training days. If you fail (and many will do) you will be removed from flying and have to retake the simulator in a months time without pay. Disregard what you think you know, they will find fault. Same goes for check flights.

Leave. Flexibility is difficult. If you need to change your leave they wont let you unless the 2 week period crosses a month-end. This gives them 3 weeks to fly you to FTL limits in each month. Anything else will be rejected.

Kennels for hotels. They use no-star hotels. Most are free or almost free for the airline. Better described as nameless guesthouses in industrial carparks with shocking dirt, stifling heat (or baltic cold)unbearable noise and no facilities whatsoever. You will spend up to 4 days in these at a time. It is illegal to make your own arrangements and the management are indifferent. Locals also complain to no effect and in fact local co-pilots are now being asked to share rooms. A recent foreigner boycott resulted in a mere change of carpet at one "hotel"..! Bear in mind many foreign pilot contracts stipulate 3-star or better - again to management indifference.

Food. Almost all food onboard is prepared by a no-star Chinese hotel owned by Spring. Saying it's sub-standard is an understatement. On overnights expect similar.

Flying itself: There is a complete lack of English all-round. Most company documents are only in Chinese. No cabin crew will understand any briefing or evacuation command. Pushback is in Chinese. ATC will give clearances in Chinese, at times refusing to speak english (see the fines above and Juneyao incident elsewhere).

Flight plans offer zero extra fuel. Contingency is zero percent. More than 200kg extra will be argued by dispatch. ATC will randomly, but regularly keep flights at ~FL250 for hours when planned at ~FL 350 because of unnamed and unpredictable restrictions. You see the dilemma. Despite this your f/o will question strongly any extra fuel as his paycheck depends on it. Monthly fuel bonuses are arbitrary, not based on formula, and far below what was advertised. A bad idea to start with.

In short you are here to fill a seat. Given that most Chinese pilots are on lifetime contracts, the management havent quite grasped the fact that foreign pilots have other options. I think they might learn that soon.
For now they are scratching their heads at why nobody new is coming here...

[JotaJota]

Daaam! I went thru a few of these "scenarios or events" in my few years in China, but Spring better get their shiat together if they want to attract and retain.

$12k fine for alt bust? C ya... We had a few over 15 kts taxi/turns, high sink rate and other BS, but the fines were less than a thousand per event.

And the worst, short on FUEL? We (at BCA/Deer) complained that we had WAY too much fuel, and always landed with what, 4000-5000 kilos.

Interesting!!!

[On Final]

Hello,

Be careful with this airline I know of a pilot that was cooked up there. Stick with the more reliable outfits.

Good Luck,

On Final

[Transformer_Man]

Not unique!

QAR busts, adversarial training, bad food and hotels are common. Xiamen was putting crews in a hotel in Hangzhou with prostitution and drug activity. They also used a kennel in Fuzhou for the crews, and even the Chinese didn't like it.

It is not always so bad - sometimes you get a good hotel and decent crew meals.

Briefings are often like talking to the wall. You say it in English, and the copilot translates. You say a short sentence, and he delivers a long lecture until you stop him and insist on a strict translation of your instructions.

There are Communist Party zealots in each company who want operations done their way, and they don't want foreigners contaminating the brew.

$12K for an altitude bust? Par for Confucian flying in the metric system.

[Burningavgas]

Nearsight, you did an awesome job describing the work envirorment in China, but you left out one BIG detail......SMOKING!!!!

I am not that familiar with what kind of policies the airlines have here in China in regards to smoking in the airplane, but I can tell you, on the bizjet at my contract company its a major major problem. I just finished my two jump seat observation trips and completed my touch and go's in the actual airplane, and on every single observation leg, the pilots were smoking in the airplane. And not only the pilots smoke in the airplane, but you have an engineer who also smokes in the cabin. I actually thought I could escape the smoke, but then you have this engineer lighting up in the lavatory.

My advice to any foreigner who is about to make the jump to China...buy yourself a good pair of shower shoes because the hotels are the nastiest you will ever stay in. They're filled with smoke and freezing arse cold. If you go to dinner with the Chinese crew, they eat with a cig in their mouth, so its always.....smoke smoke smoke!!!


Ching Ching!!!

[springaviator]

Ladies and Gents,

I can confirm the initial thread statement is true and correct.

A very sad situation that has little logic to it. The gent involved is a foreign A320 captain that was involved in an altitude bust, no TA/RA's were recorded. There is no need to take fault away from the pilot itself, but so as to give a better understanding of what happened on that day I suggest more current Spring pilots add their bit to this thread.
The gent involved was never taken off flying following this event, thus implying he is in no way a threat, there was a minimal investigation by the airline and the results (mainly the radio transmission recordings) have not been made available to this pilot despite his insistence and repetitive requests.
To the best of my knowledge this is a situation that has occurred in the past, in similar circumstances with local pilots. The main issue here is the disproportionate "fine" imposed by the airline to this individual, $12,000USD, versus RMB2,000 for the similar incident were a local pilot was PIC.
This is an abuse of the contractual agreement and is set to be a strong message from the airline to their foreign pilots, mainly and very possibly under pressure from the CAAC.
The set up, non adherence to SOP's, HIGHLY non standard ATC instructions/read backs and overall lack of english proficiency on the part of the latter makes this type of events very frequent. I personally witness several on a daily basis and for the most part I had only "close calls", but I can see this same event repeating it self over and over again.
Most of the guys recruited into this operator have strong to very strong aviation back grounds, most of them with several thousand PIC hours having served in flag carriers and we are all very skeptical about bonuses being paid in the manner they are advertised when recruited. If you are even thinking on joining an expat contract gig do so with both eyes wide open.

In short, Flying in China is no walk in the park. Your license, career and overall sanity can take a beating before you know it. Be warned...

I will be happy to answer any questions relating to this operation in the public forum.

[radarvector320]

Good post Nearsight.

You have to wonder about the integrity of an airline that end-loads all of their bonuses. Evidently they are ready to pounce at the first opportunity to withold your bonus (re:12,000$ safety bonus).

One failed medical, one failed sim check, one failed line check and bye bye bonus. Spring Airlines is obviously unwilling to share the risk with their foreign pilots (that they so desperately need) as evidenced by the low monthly pay/bonus based salary structure. If I move myself and family to China it will be for money up front not a promise to pay "If, if, if..." Get with the program Spring. You are falling behind...

[springaviator]

Hotel accomodation provided by Spring during overnights....
This has been going on forever!! a few of the guys finally refused to fly to some of these dumps. To date, the hotels are the same, no changes, other than a scrub down and a new carpet.
Issues during over nights range from no hot water to take a shower, incredible noise levels (you can hear everything that goes on in your neighbouring room, from coughing to bathroom visits), no temperature control and in some places no heating.
What gives??
a $12,000 USD fine just to put all the pilots in place... that'll learn 'em!


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[goodinchina]

Heard of a guy going through a medical recently, failed the medical and passed it again one month later. Outcome of medicals seem to be a game of black jack. End result was no pay during the "down time", no bonus either for the lack of productivity. Is this true?
Also, several guys fired during their initial training for failing sims and others getting a hard time to receive a clearance letter so that they could go work elsewhere.
Hotels, sims, fines for actions outside the control of the crew, contracts as a base to renegotiate conditions of service...What is going on?
Insiders with more and better details?

[boocs]

"What is going on?"

Welcome to China.....

b.

[flyingguyforjob]

For anyone considering China and certain airlines with end loaded bonuses....Think twice. Maybe the Middle east is a better bet. Or Malaysia, Singapore, Korea, ..many options. In Spring air, you simply dont know if you will ever see that money and with the recent 12k they took from one guy, I think this speaks loud and clear...

[airbusdriver2]

Guys this is all true unfortunately. Nearsight has done a fantastic job of describing work life here in spring airlines. That about sums it up. Up to now you could almost put up with the daily struggle of working here because of the money but after this ridiculous totally disproportionate fine quite frankly most of us believe we will lose at least one of our safety bonuses possibly all of them if a simple altitude bust is all it takes. As for the long term bonuses based on what has happened we are all very suspicious now if we will ever see them, they promise a lot but clearly are working out ways to get out of paying. For anyone thinking of coming to work for spring airlines think long and hard about it. There are much better and more secure contracts out there in china not to mention the rest of the world. I fear that spring will learn thus the hard way over the next few years if they don't adapt their thinking. If things don't change I predict a continual exodus over the next few years with little if no contract renewals! This is honestly what it is like guys we have no reason to give false info be careful if you want to join spring there is a lot better out there!

[flyingguyforjob]

Good information.
Seems most agree. They are out to find ways to not pay. And it seems to fit their Strategy. Offer the big bonus and look for reasons not to pay it. I will pass this on to my colleagues for sure. This place seem to be indifferent to the impct their actions have on their reputation !

[On Final]

Hello,

Yes it is true, I would stay away from this Airline. It is not just one pilot roasted, it is the company attitude in gerneral. Remember, if you go to any Chinese airline for work and fail your CAAC checkride you are DONE in China forever. Pilots should be very careful with the first airline they pick in China.

Good Luck,

On Final

[StandbyFlowControl]

My current contract's coming to an end and I was thinking of Spring Airlines (China's Ryanair) but I read from a Bloomberg article recently :

Spring Air’s Shen:
“The boom in foreign pilots coming to China may only last a few years,” he said. “When we have more choice in the future, I will prefer our own pilots.”

At least the guy's honest ;) I'm looking for a more stable job and with this statement , and the lottery medicals , and $12000 punishment fines there, it's all far too uncertain and risky for me. The end loading of bonuses is CRAZY. and puts all the risk on the Pilot and not the Airline.

Better to get on into a more secure environment....EK DEC application is in.......;)

[Twin2040]

Nearsight - Thanks for a great post - was tempted to try China, but think I stay - on less pay - in Europe

[rollingscissors]

Do not be tempted by China. Many pilots look at the high pay and want it just as hungry dogs want meat baiting a bear trap. It is a very backward place to work and live. Not just Spring Airlines, but the whole thing.

Sure, you get beaucoup yuan and new planes. You also get a wildly reactionary and tempermental aviation authority that thinks nothing of destroying your career. You get a political / economic / social system that will amaze in its capacity to ruin.

Hungry dogs at a bear trap.

[Falcon0001]

Nearsight,

What an aptly chosen name. Your description of what is going on at Spring Airlines is well, pretty nearsighted indeed.

And yes, I know personally. I work for an agency dealing with airlines around the World, including China and Spring. If you think the following is biased, this is your privilege.

I was in Shanghai four weeks ago and had a couple of beers with a dozen or so of our Spring expat pilots at the Big Bamboo on Hongmei Lu. What I heard there does quite not match what you and others are saying on this thread about Spring.

In general terms, our pilots told me they are happy at Spring and in Shanghai with the occasional beefs here and there. Yes, people are p....d off with layover hotels. Some of them are downright not acceptable. To say the least, this is still an ongoing campaign. More work in this regard is needed for sure. We are trying.

On the whole, most agreed that Spring has improved a lot since the first arrivals of expats there by Spring 2010. But it has certainly been a learning experience on both sides of the fence.

You are right, airline medicals are a lot more thorough in China than in the West. But I have attended medical exam sessions in China with our pilots and I always have seen an airline appointed doctor present to assist candidates. The idea is not to screw candidates. If there is a small problem, everybody, the airline's doctor, our agency (always present at the medicals) will be there to try and sort out the problem. I have even seen remedial medical procedures undertaken to clear a problem, with subsequent medical acceptance.

Chinese medicals are no worse than Japanese, Middle East medicals or are certainly more lenient than the newly required Air Force medicals in India. We always advise our candidates to prepare for the medical by exercising, cutting down on cigarettes or booze for a couple of weeks before the screening. This seems to help. The major medical deal breakers are mostly related to potential heart conditions, i.e. high blood pressure, high cholesterol count, etc…

But let me tell you, I believe that if you flunk a Chinese medical, my advice is to have a long conversation with your personal physician. You more than likely need that chat.

Training delays are an issue. Line checks take a long time to happen. But once you are checked out, you are OK. People do their flights and go home and, in this case, enjoy Shanghai. Do not go on an expat job with the idea of telling everybody how to do things, whether you are right or not. Do your job than relax.

Pilots who started with Spring in May 2010 have received all their full salary and end of year bonuses in full and on time. Nobody I know there has been docked with a penalty (as of late March when I was there). The biggest gripe is with the layover hotels.

When people accept to work in a foreign country, they accept to live and work by the local culture and local rules. And, yes, there are major cultural differences between Chinese culture (including social mores, business culture, employee/employer relations, etc...) and Western culture. Sometimes the cultural shock can be, well... a shocker. But you will find the same reality in other parts of Asia (Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc...), the Middle East, Africa, etc...

One fact to be taken into consideration is that Asian and Middle East people are more conservative when it comes to making decisions. When people make mistakes, there are consequences. Those can be much more dramatic then in the West. This creates an environment where day-to-day decision-making is much more cautious and conservative. If a major flight test (a CAAC one) is failed, in most circumstances, few people at the airline are likely to take a chance with the unsuccessful candidate. Nor people at other airlines.

Does this means that there no dynamism in Asian societies. Not by a long shot. Just look at the commercial and financial achievements we see today in Asia. But thousands of years old cultures and societies do not change in a few years. Nevertheless, see the China of today and compare with the China of fifty years ago. As the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding.

A lot has been said about Chinese employment contracts. So I will not repeat here all the inanities said in the past about them. But first, one needs to understand the basics underlying the way Chinese employment contracts are written. As previously said in one of the posts in this thread, Chinese are employed for life.

It is thus very hard for Chinese employers to fire employees, Chinese or not. The way around this is to write employment contracts that will encompass and describe as broadly as possible a series of circumstances giving employers the leeway to let go a really unwanted employee. This is why many Chinese expat employment contracts have these long lists of minor and major mistakes.

The major problem with Chinese expat employment contracts is that, in many cases, the English version and the Chinese version of the contract do not match. Most of the times, contracts are translated in Chinese using translation software. This approach leaves a lot to be desired. This is why in many instances, we found that we (nor even Chinese employers) could understand what some of the clauses meant. This is why the airlines and expat pilots are, very often, not in the same page and end up having different interpretations of their contracts. Both are reading a different version of the contract. Most agencies do not care about this.

The agency I work for spent close to 25,000 US$ in independent Chinese translation and legal advice to ensure both the Chinese and the Chinese versions of the employment were as close as possible to each other. Also, we send a blank version of the contract to all the candidates applying for positions with our customers whether in China or not. Candidates know forehand what the employment terms are. No last minute surprise.

In general terms, Spring is no worse, and actually better, than many other Chinese and non-Chinese airlines. Within the constraints of cultural heritage, they have tried and have succeeded in improving themselves. Yes, more improvement possible, indeed. This is a work in progress.

In conclusion, I do not subscribe to your (and others in this thread) general condemnation of all Chinese airlines and specifically Spring Airlines. Most are trying to do better and, yes, will need to get better. Agencies have to educate them on to how to better manage their expat pilots. They will succeed with the help of their agencies.

I know by experience that this is a delicate exercise, a tight balancing act. But, if this done with tact and diplomacy, I know it can work. I have seen it happen numerous times with our customers.

If you want to talk to some of our pilots at Spring, Let me know

I am looking forward to your comments.

[theexpat]

Dear Falcon 0001,

I will try to be short and to the point in my answer, people don't read long essays... But I have read yours entirely.
It is quite obvious you are in the business of recruiting pilots and you make a living from it. And I would bet anything, Spring is one of your potential clients, or maybe an actual client... Therefore, you have to defend at any cost your potential source of revenue. That is fair game...

One should not confuse culture and basic rules and regulations pertaining to the aviation world, and to name only one, crew rest facilities for pilots. Don't lose sight of the big picture, they are the ones looking for pilots and if they need us they will have to show they are able to adapt to the situation. Differences in culture does not give them permission to be exempt from following the basic rules. The Chinese are the greatest at making fake products, and aviation is no exception, ''smoke and mirrors'' rings a bell?...
On your last visit to Shanghai, you said you were having beers with the boys, did you stay at the Homeyo hotel, which is the standard 1-1/2 stars? By the way this is the standard for the crew on the road. Or should I bluntly accept it, based on the differences in culture? It is nice to be Zen when you are not in one's shoe.
The pilots are not home every night any more. With the new schedule as of November 2011, they spend half their working days in hotel like the Homeyo or worse in fact...
If you are working for a recruiting agency and represent some pilots at Spring, what have you done to educate the Airline ?
I stand by my comment I made before on pprune. Let's agree to disagree on the subject.

One last comment about the great Asia's success story, don't be fooled, part of it is due to the way they control their currency via the central bank, their very low wages and having no opposition in their governing structure. But this is a different subject.
Keep on working on the cultural differences...

[radarvector320]

Falcon0001,

It's pretty obvious who you are and who butters your bread. "Proof is in the pudding"? China's economy is fostered on the backs of it's people. Low wages and no labour rules. I would say Nearsight (based on my research and chats with those in the Chinese aviation community) has done a marvelous job of describing the work enviornment in China. You on the other hand would suffer financially should the truth actually be exposed. Fair enough.

You're obviously an agent. What have you done to improve the situation for the pilots that you've placed there over the last couple of years? Are pilots actually paying for their hotel rooms? Yes they are. What are you doing about that? My understanding is that this issue has been dragging on for months now. These are the little things that you could be more proactive with in terms of improving the quality of life for those that have chosen to work in China. It's things like this that keep me out of China.

Don't use cultural differences as an excuse for the airlines inability to provide better rest conditions while on crew rest or anything else in the name of culture for that matter. To say the Chinese are more conservative in their decisions is the biggest overstatement of the year and frankly points to the fact of how "nearsighted" you are. Their only fear is the QAR. If their "decision" won't be recorded electronically then anything is fair game for them. While parts of your post are somewhat insightful and not as biased as could be given your occupation it does need deeper insight. Perhaps you should get to the bottom of how your pilots really feel...

[nearsight]

I could go on an offensive and revisit his post point-by point, but instead I ask readers to read these posts with the knowledge that I am a pilot in this airline offering advice and insight, whilst Falcon is from a very small "finders-fee" only contract agency with little interest in pilot welfare once they are signed up.

In his post, as in practice, you can see he offers only excuses, not solutions or support.


Further to my post above and given the shortage of pilots in Spring Airlines;
I advise any prospective pilots to negotiate their contract such that all bonuses are to be paid monthly, not annually or on completion. I also highly advise on stipulating a minimum acceptable hotel standard.
Pilots have been asking for these changes (amongst many) from the very start, but only now is the airline is beginning to listen.

Make sure it is in writing, and (with hindsight I may add) make sure you sign with a real pilot agency.


Nearsight
(with hindsight)

[springaviator]

You would be out of your depth in a parking lot puddle. You wouldn't know a clue if it walked up to you, bit you on the ass, and announced 'I AM A CLUE'. However, I'll consider letting you have the last word if you guarantee it will be your last. To quote Thomas Brackett Reed:"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge."

Calling you dull is a gross underestimation of just how tedious you are. You have the personality of a damp sponge and the appeal of a moldy sweat sock. Looking at you, Darwin would NOT be pleased to see how inefficiently evolution sometimes works. Maybe you wouldn't be such a Jerk-In-The-Box if you weren't so dense that light bends around you; if your weren't so fat that when you stand on the Speaking Scale, it screams, or if you didn't have a face like a bulldog chewing a stinging nettle while taking a constipated dump in a heat wave. Who am I kidding? You would.

In future, wake up the dozy peglegged hamster operating that wheel-powered brain of yours before you start typing.

TAKE A LOOK AROUND: FINES, HOTELS, SIMS, MEDICALS AND GENERAL ATTITUDE. They have not changed. And by the way, near sighted does have a point, be it in the sarcastic title elected or in the points made for the general benefit of pilots considering such contract. This should put you at ease... or does it not?

[de facto]

My airline seems like heaven:cool:

[flyingguyforjob]

If you ask me, i would consider a carrier in the middle East. Seems that China is behind the times with their penalty culture. A friend told me they took 12k from a guy for an altitude bust which was due primarily to communication problems. Also, they apparently put the pilots in horrible hotels. A recent contract has a lot of alterations which penalize, for example they have to pay for re-training if they fail any check ride!

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Stay in Atlanta Bob, you won't like it over here, it is horrible!!!!!

[de facto]

yeah it's terrible:E

[stinkyfish]

Hang on guys - progress is being made! My buddy tells me they just gave a foreign pilot a month off for improper dress code while on duty AND a financial penalty. Unfortunately another altitude bust by a foreigner recently. Waiting for the verdict on that one. Standby for new atis message. And they wonder why they can't get pilots :ugh:

[defaultspeed]

Seems like the Middle East is the place to be. I have not heard of thesehuge penalties in other parts of the world. I considered leaving the sandbox,but I think I will stay right here. Job security, travel benefits, medicalcoverage, no crazy penalties. Concerning the guy who received the huge penaltyfor an altitude bust..., $12k I believe?... My friend knows him. Apparently theoriginal contract he signed with Spring did not even contain language whichwould legally allow Spring to penalize him that amount of cash!. I agree,Legally, Spring is on shaky ground even trying to enforce this insane type ofpunishment. Even more insane is there apparent inability to see how theseactions are seriously impairing their ability to crew their airplanes. Otherissues which have impacted my decision;

The apparently horrible hotels. I have seen unbelievable pics of some ofthese places and would almost imagine them to be photoshopped, they look so****y.

The end-loaded bonuses.

The contract terms which allow Spring to charge the pilot for RE-TRAINING ifhe fails and sim or training event!?

Best of luck to you there.

[flyingguyforjob]

Are you kidding me?!
A fine and a month off for a dress code violation? Was he walking around the plane in cruise flight naked! What dress code violation would possible give them the right to penalize a guy for a month’s pay!? I also heard another altitude bust happened. Any idea what they finned that pilot? Should be interesting to see how they handle this one. What was the previous altitude violation?....$12k!? Does anyone know if that pilot is going to challenge or has challenged that punishment/fine?

Well, I have elected to go to Middle East. The non-sense you all are dealing with there is beyond common sense. How do theyt hink they are going to retain new pilots let alone recruit new pilots. I heard from another source that a bunch of Spanish guys were scared off during the interview process. Good thing they learned the truth before accepting the position! :D

[FAC1fault]

I am the pilot whom received the 12k penalty for the altitude bust at Spring Air. I have avoided posting for obvious reasons, as you might imagine.
However, a few weeks ago, I was asked to post aresponse to “Clear up” the rumors. So, Iwill simply state; There is a provision in the current contract for this type ofpunishment. There is not a provision in my first year contract which wouldcause them to unequivocally penalize me to this extent. The difficulties they are having recruiting new pilots could be easily solved with a repeal of this heavy fine. I hope this clears things up a bit.

[USMCProbe]

My contract at my Chinese carrier ended over 3 weeks ago. I was just informed that I had an "absence" from my scheduled simulator that I was scheduled to be in yesterday. I wonder if they will try to fine me for this?
You gotta love working in China. Or not.

[JotaJota]

FAC1 that's total BS. $12k for an altitude bust. With the 50 mile lateral and 2k feet+ vertical separation they use in China... What a joke!

USMC, now that's funny... You missed your sim session... LOL! Where are you hdg now? Back to the states?

[climbhappy]

funny how perception is reality.

i like flying in china...once i got pass the culture shock..
the people are overall friendly...yes i know about the caac and the crazyness. but it is not entirely overall.....

i like the country...have many chinese friends and hope to stay many years. have been 2 years...

for me it is about attitude and thankful i have a good job. it seems to work for me..

all the best!
happy landings

[Bolshevik]

:= That was funny as hell :D

[climbhappy]

laughter is good for the soul...im doin just fine...got to go..my chinese girlfriend needs servicing again..geez it's only 1122..

[USMCProbe]

Getting fined for mistakes is part of their aviation culture. Every single expat knows that when they come here. I don't remember anything allowing a 12k fine, however. But complaining about the fines? We are all volunteers.
Some of the other stuff, however, is not as advertised. Every couple of months the CAAC comes up with some new requirement, medical, or check ride. The latest a few months ago was an MRI, CT scan, and carodit aertery ultrasound. We lost one so far, and almost lost a couple more, and not everyone is complete.
Out of maybe 20 pilots or so that were at BCA, online, for more than a year, I can only think of 2 or 3 that didn't fail a medical, at least once.

[springaviator]

funny how perception is reality.

I do not understand sir... what part of "perception is reality" ?


i like flying in china...once i got pass the culture shock..
the people are overall friendly...yes i know about the caac and the crazyness. but it is not entirely overall.....


Stockholm syndrome 101. A bit of counseling and a brew or two with fellow aviators will do wonders for you.
Referring to craziness and the CAAC in the same phrase makes me wonder what part of flying in China do you really like. Do you enjoy seeing your co-workers abused and fined at the drop of a hat? Do you enjoy the wisdom of QAR used against you on every flight? How about the constant +2 hour "flow control delays" with rioting passengers locked up in the cabin? No support from ground staff or airport police? How about the guys failing medical checks, how do you explain that to your next insurance company when applying for coverage? List goes on, these are some of the most extravagant ops I have ever heard of. Let alone witness.



i like the country...have many chinese friends and hope to stay many years. have been 2 years...

This is a thread on and about Spring Airlines. Please stick to it. Your personal warm and fuzzy feelings are touching, but ill suited at this time.


for me it is about attitude and thankful i have a good job. it seems to work for me..

So, did you also get a "suggestion" (as the gent that got fined for the altitude bust…), or did you just felt the urge to come and spread peace among anonymous posters? Do you too have any incidents as of late and been given a chance to redeem by giving you a “chance” to prove their good will? Give me a break buster! They have already shown their cards with the fines. Anything else is an after thought.
It's not all about attitude; it's about professionalism, first. These guys started the game with the fines, with their politics and their games. This thread began to alert fellow pilots of the situation. No one is making up anything here. Not even you!

With regards to your happy stance of holding a job… As long as there is a need for a service that you are able to deliver, you will have a job. Here or anywhere else for that matter. If that's all you aspire too!

Got it? then get it...

[thepotato232]

You can't accuse the man of Stockholm Syndrome for daring to speak well of aspects of the country, do a point-by-point teardown of working with the CAAC, and then turn right back around and say "this is a thread about Spring Airlines". You are not up to your own standard.

Another perspective has been offered. It seems there are people enjoying the Chinese experience, provided they are not working for Spring. This strengthens the point of the thread, as you have defined it. Don't be a toad about it.

[CaptainHindsight]

Again I may be a bit nearsighted but Springaviator can speak of Stockholm Syndrome openly if he suspects the poster has been given a "suggestion" by management to post here as the fined pilot was.

There are those who grovel and kowtow to every perceived minor local authority figure in a company's flight operations. They do so in the mistaken belief that they will be rewarded. These spineless grey men are the weak underbelly of our industry and should be ostracized as such.

To apologise for the CAAC and Spring in such a flippant manner ("the craziness") when a group of professional peers are airing legitimate and serious concerns for their livelihoods smacks of either climbhappy being a hired troll or somewhat retarded.

In any case I believe this link might be of help:
Submissive Behavior (http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Behavior/Modification/Submissive.aspx)

[climbhappy]

spring aviator,
your views are so extreme..yes there are cases of fines and going to the sim for hard landings..but you impress me as a guy who isn't laid back and quite stressed out.

my perception of my life and flying in china is my "reality" i love it

you got me pal? don't piss on my parade!

i can't help my coworkers and i like my coworkers. we're just contract pilots. or r u one of these guys that is plotting to unionize? and fight the chinese? a guy always making dissent in calm waters and stirring $hit everywhere you go?

i made a comment mr. thread police and it got a laugh from one guy...try humor sometime dude.. or go back to the usa and swing gear for 35,000 (i assume u r american ..just go back to your home country)

i don't need ur advice.. my God watches over me
life is good...jack....have a beer and loosen the F up.

[springaviator]

Potato, I don’t think so much about perspectives, but since climb happy knows what is going on at Spring (it is safe to assume he works there) and says that it’s all about attitudes I need to add my 2 cents.
There is nothing in my post that suggests anything wrong with China or its nationals per se. I am not in to promote personal opinions and believe they have little place here. There are plenty of forums discussing the pros and cons when living in any country. Some families and individuals adapt, others don’t and there is nothing more to that. If you must know, and in order to clear the air, I find more positives than negatives.
When a pilot in at Spring is fined USD $12,000 for busting an altitude and his local colleague gets fined a mere 3% of that amount for the same mistake it begs an argument. Shortly thereafter, another pilot gets suspended for a month with no paycheck (USD$13.500) for wearing sleepers in the flight deck, on a 16 hr duty day, while some others have done much worse and get away with it. I do feel for those guys as we can all make a mistake, be it of judgment or operational. But 2 wrongs do not make one right. The severity of the penalties imposed are out of any contract let alone comprehension. This is what got the thread started.
On a different subject now, guys have failed medicals and are sent back home only to regain full medicals at their home turf. I can imagine their frustration trying to explain this to a future employer and insurance company when looking for coverage. Nothing there to enjoy, no good attitude will restore the damage that is already done. There are plenty more examples that are not even mentioned. A good attitude has little to do with it all, and as we all had, it will be quick to turn around when confronted by such abuse and lack of reasoning. Since I am here for the long haul (flying that is) I will protect my interest and will look after the well being of my license. No good attitude will preserve such.
I therefore disagree with the initial post, it is not about attitudes. There are plenty of traps never mentioned in the Spring brochure that may have catastrophic consequences to a pilots career, and that needs to be brought up to anyone willing to part with their surroundings when looking to do a contract.
Let’s stay focused, Spring Airlines only. What are the problems, how to fix them and how to make the best out if all. This should benefit all. Thanks.

[climbhappy]

OK>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[driver320]

I've been looking for a while now at different contracts and agencies and deduct the following:
Parc Aviation is the only agency I will consider and Spring Airlines would be the last airline I would apply for. And only if their were no other choices.
Thanks for all your input everybody!

[Chaff n Flare]

Hello Everyone,
I can see this thread goes back quite far but have been contacted several times in the last couple of weeks by agencies recruiting for Spring and was wondering if there have been any changes at the company since people last posted?

Also as to whether these bonus schemes that the agencies keep throwing out and the people on here keep bashing have been seen in action yet by anyone who has been working at there?

I fit the requirements and don't really have much lined up at the moment but obviously wouldn't mind some updated gen.

[USMCProbe]

i know a couple Spring pilots and it is currently a good Jub plus you get to live in Shanghai which is a great deal.BUT!!!!!!!
Most of the guys I work with had the choice to apply to them or BCA. To a man, we all chose BCA, not because we thought it was better, but we didn't want to be held prisoner to a gigantic bonus at the end. At the time Spring paid 10% more, but not until the end with all the bonus money.
Fast forward 2 years. so far Spring has met their comitments. But working in China is a month to month gig. you never know when you will fail something, even for no reason and no fault. I would make the same choice again, even though I would prefer to live in Shanghai. I simply don't trust the locals to keep their promises,
The last I heard Spring is still a decent place to work, but having a 74,000 dollar rope wrapped around my neck for 3 years isn't worth it.
Everybody gets to make their own choice.
My humble opinion.
Other opinions may differ.

[JumpX3]

Either way if your going to China I'd focus on the company with the Best monthly salary rather than these empty promises and Spring has one of the lowest salaries going for that area as you would expect from the Ryanair of China.

[Chaff n Flare]

I'd focus on the company with the Best monthly salary

It's not just about the money for me and your talking about a difference of a couple of thousand per month I would rather go without and work for a solid and reliable company than to go somewhere like chingbongdabingzow in the middle of nowhere to count grains of rice once I've finished counting my cash.

$73,000 rope isn't ideal but then Shanghai sounds ok, Have you spent any time there USMC?

[JumpX3]

chingbongdabingzow is actually quite nice this time of year I'll have you know :ok:

[USMCProbe]

The number 1 thing in China, if that is what you want to do, is does the combination of airline and agency have the ability to successfully recruit and get you through the process to get online. The best ones have a very low success rate from interview to passing a line check. The bad ones. - you don't want to know. Chose a worthless agency like Smile or Unic and they will probably screw up some small detail and you won't make it for some idiotic reason. in China you are probably going to get only 1 shot.
After that? Well we are all different with different priorities. Some want every last dime, some want lifestyle, etc. Some are more "culturally sensitive" than others.
Choose carefully and good luck.

[JumpX3]

Just Heard from a new friend that recently sat the medical in Shanghai that they get real up close and personal with a rubber glove while you squat in the middle of the room naked.

[USMCProbe]

JumpX3;
That is a new one but it doesn't surprise me. Nothing on the medical surprises me. I cant wait till next week for my next medical.

My favorite one that most of us know about is the Blood Pressure cuff that is too small, or has worn out velcro. Either they have two locals "hold it in place", or tell you too, with your left hand.

Almost everybody fails that one, unless the young girl that is giving it to you likes you, or is just having a good day. Or maybe she doesn't like you, or everybody that day, in which case EVERYONE fails.

Then you get to wear a 24 hour blood pressure tester that logs your pressure over 24 hours. And maybe that cuff also is too small or worn out. Or the batteries die after 2 hours.

Getting the finger in China? I can't wait

We have had failures for fat liver, and sludgey gall bladder. I wonder what they will call failing "the finger". Stinky finger? Finger too brown? Too loose?

I cant wait for this one.

BTW, someone has to fail the new test. That is why there is a new test.

[cameltoad]

Yup, I can attest to all of these, too small cuff, you hold it to your arm, 24hr monitor that doesn't work. I have personally done them all. All of this done to chase a nonexistent problem for no reason whatsoever. I even went to Hong Kong to see a real doc. just to make sure, did every test under the sun, when I told him why he just smiled and made a casual joke that "my mainland cousins haven't figured out that a fork and knife and a toilet are better, so what do you expect"
BTY probe, what did you decide to do, did you re-sign or are you heading back to the states?

[StandbyFlowControl]

Yes. The Spring medical check involves the rubber glove treatment, stood in a room with 10 chinese guys while the Doc squats down and spreads your ass cheeks as you bend over, gets a real good look.:{

Talking to my Spanish interview buddy on Skype, he says the hotels are going from bad to worse, they're now moving out to an airport no star which is in a building site, he's just spent 4 days alone in Shenyang, (no cabin crew or FO around), zero english spoken , nowhere to eat, freezing cold, says its the worst job he's ever had in 25 years.

Also said recently an Expat been fined for a heavy landing, name up on the company "hall of lost face shame" website, and will lose some of his bonuses, they have a fining system there based on the QAR, altitude busts are a $12,000 thank you please.

I decided not to join this Ryanair type outfit, I wanted my cash monthly thanks:}

[springaviator]

4 of the latest additions to the expat department “failed” on their last sim check. Back to back. Fired. Several other expat veterans dropped for dead on regular line checks. Months of “jumpseat retraining” to make up for the performance. Public internet shaming on the scheduling page to top it all off.

Humiliating and patronizing does not even begin to describe it, and this in a country that takes “saving face” very seriously.

Reasons for such failures are varied but very far from aptitude, performance, professionalism or personality clashes. Changes to SOP’s and OM’s are regular and NEVER made available to pilots. No emails, notices to crews or postings notifying such modifications to the operation. Reminiscence of a medieval HBO show.

When you see your colleagues getting slaughtered in such a ridiculous and public shows, pondering options is the only way to go. This system seems out of control.

Growth has slowed to a halt. No more airplanes. CAAC leadership is a “transitional” period, hence no more friendly handshakes. New hires are no longer wanted, needed nor required, as the CAAC demands pilots must be on payroll in order to apply for aircraft. Flight and sim checks are now beyond belief. Forget the multiple unrelated emergencies while single pilot. What was then a nightmare is now considered a child’s game. Personal phone calls are still taken during sims and the occasional snooze on the back has too!

If there was not enough grief with the previous simulator circus, schedules, astronaut medicals conducted in appalling conditions, extreme heavy handed fines, a city that charges primary through high school children’s fees over $1,500 per month per kid, inflation that is mind boggling and air pollution that brakes the 500 PI scale on a “hazy” day, it now seems that a heavy dozen of the local and older drivers are also departing on their initiative to other local companies with better human skills. Makes anyone wonder how did it all get to this point if not even the locals can take it anymore.

The sand pit is looking greener every day …

[StandbyFlowControl]

Yeah I heard about the 4 Spanish guys who were failed in the sim :ugh:

Foreigners bad, local hero Pilots good ......

[boocs]

So what about the Hong Kong base for Spring??

b.

[USMCProbe]

Has anyone finished their contract, and received the full bonus money? I believe it should be about now that the first expats started the recruitment at Spring. Just interested.

[goodinchina]

Cancelled after CAAC shut down expansion. Try Jet Star HKG....

[calemans]

Thank you for all the info.
But.. It´s Spring different from the others chinese companies?

Which one has the best human skills if any?

[springaviator]

Hi Cale,

This is a difficult question to answer non subjectively.
Personally I would do a top down assessment, as in, the airline with the least negative comments both public and private is the most likely to have the best approach to dealing with their employees and service providers.

A little back ground on the ops: Spring Airlines seems to be in a different operational league to their competitors as it was formed by very savvy China only tourism industry insiders. This is the only true private airline in the Middle Kingdom and has been challenging the state funded airlines since inception. Equipment and real estate is leased.
Spring Airlines has poached drivers from better funded competitors by paying exorbitant transfer fees for drivers and opted for foreign crews to cover the once needed growth issues.
Needless to say it has created certain animosity in higher circles.
Since, it has formed a huge pool of cadet recruits, trained in the USA with an acceptable English proficiency that makes such poaching of local talent obsolete. The hiring of temporary expat help is now winding down and will be terminated once the momentum created in the lower ranks is acceptable for command. A cadet can move from zero to hero in as little as 2,000 hours cruise time. Until now, expat help provided for some stability in the growth potential while at the same time certain mentorship to the cadets.
The recent growth collapse in the airline expansion has created a huge impact on expectations. Mostly, the until recently pending IPO, now defunct, will determine forward looking challenges. No way to sell shares with no growth and expanding operating costs. Certain routes are being squeezed, others are operating at a loss.
Spring is looking to reinvent itself once again. This is, without a doubt, a great entrepreneurial story. Top management is so, lower is that at best... doing business in China can be anything but business as usual.
Assuming a clean operational and safety record, the next 12-36 months will be very interesting indeed... Spring is boxed. Ribbon placed on top.

Stay tuned!

[zumzum]

How is it going Spring airlines nowadays? Still terrible hotels and much fines for QARs?
i have big interest for Bangkok base. how is it?


Hi,
BKK so far is just a rumor to attract foreign pilots. If it happens there would be a long que Starting from those already in Spring. You need at least 1 year in the company as for Osaka and conditions will not be the same as the chinese contract I assume (Osaka diktat again)
Still same old rules (punishments) for QAR's etc. Hotels still not the best.....

Best of luck,

[Oscar84]

Springa may you explain this??

"At the moment if you sign with the company you make the equivalent of 16000 USD, but you cannot change all foreign currency"

Thanks

[Oscar84]

I don't understand what are you saying.

They pay you in two parts, one 13000 basic salary, and 3500 for the allowance.
And the thing is that you are only able to convert the 13000, and, what happen with the allowance?

They pay you the allowance in CNY? Or, the banks in Sha are only allowed to convert only the basic salary?

May you go to another bank and convert the CNY to $??

Thanks

[Oscar84]

Really??

Only able to convert the basic salary... Incredible

And what you have to do with the other money in CNY?

Last question, what about the Bonusses...??? The same as allowance? Or you can convert it?

[Oscar84]

Really?

No fuel bonus?
No safety bonus?
No loyalty bonus?
No annual bonus?

That's around 40000$/year...

[safelife]

With another Chinese airline but similar situation, we change all our salary on the "black market" (which is more like a usual office downtown), no fee and very reasonable rates.
No problems at all, at least for USD and EUR.
We never even bothered with the official way, even though we get the tax certificates.
Plus you can use your UnionPay card abroad at many ATMs.

[Oscar84]

For me, it is so easy, let's see

Safety bonus 12.000/year
Travel (reimbursement) 10000/year
Annual Bonus 6000/year
Fuel bonus Aprox 600/month = 7200/year

The amount is 35200/year

Plus
New renewal bonus after 3 years
36000$

That's after three years... around 36000+35000+35000+35000 = 140.000$....

[Oscar84]

I believe 16.000 every time may be no, but the limit is 11.000$

May be you can send the money with a transfer from Shanghai to your bank anywhere, and take the rest in your pocket

[safelife]

Springa, yes we do, however on our contract our company transfers half our salary in USD to our home country, and only half is paid in RMB.
So we don't bust the 10.000 $/€/£ import declaration limit in our places. We do probably bust the limit for undeclared currency export in China, but no one ever seems to check on that.

[Oscar84]

In what company are you working Safelife?

[joe falchetto 64]

Hello guys.
IMHO would be better to stop asking questions about money, change, supposedly breaching tax bank and custom rules and so on. China is a big country, every problem has a solution. That's it. What to know more? Apply, join and ask.
Happy landings.
Joe

[Oscar84]

Good answer men.

We are here to help each other, not only to complain about everything!!


Happy landings!

Hey Joe, The purpose of a forum is to ask and answer questions. If you are not agree with that just leave the forum !

[joe falchetto 64]

Spring ,
I apologize if anyone has found my post disturbing . That said, I can spare your advice about how to use this forum. Maybe you need some.
It isn't wise to write about supposedly illegal acts against the law, be that the PRC law or the country of origin's law. It is also not wise to ask the people about the company they are employed.
This forum is closely watched not only by the good human resource guys that offer nice money for flying shiny A320: it is closely watched also from other kind of good guys.
Anyway, again : there are many options that can solve many problems. In my opinion, nobody is going to explain that to people that are actually outside the middle empire and that haven't started a recruiting process yet.
Just my 2 pennies.
Forgive me if it seems I am not helping on this forum (or maybe I am helping a lot, who knows...)
Happy landings.
Joe

[joe falchetto 64]

yes I am agree with you Joe. We should not talk about Airlines and pilots job on this forum.

Today it is sunny, maybe I should go to swimming pool... 😉😜

Exactly. We should talk about pilots and airlines, not about custom and other activities that may be found interesting by someone that maybe want to know about taxes and duties, payments, bank transfer and so on.
Enjoy the pool. 😉

[Giovanni123]

I am working for Spring now.
For those who would like to join Spring because it is based in shanghai : prepare yourself to stay in Shijiazhuang 4 days then back to base and wear your uniform for another equivalent pattern.

The salary was good ( at least if you are not European , since you will be payed in dollars ) but promised salary increment for pilots who have joined the company 3 - 6 years ago : not happening ; leaves request and flexibility for rosters or personal requests , also in case of very serious problems : zero ( my have been rejected multiple times, more than 10 .... I have given up in the end ) ,

Chinese captains are flying from honquiao and foreign from pudong only , which means an extra “duty” spent in the bus of at least 2 hours per pattern, communication with the company : very poor : either you are on training or released line captain they do not answer your questions ( I tried with foreign office , chief pilot , training ..... they do not know the regulations, often you get different answers and non coherent ) , during the summer prepare yourself to 18 hours duty with delays or more : you fly 2 captains and one first officer with very few landings, often they are unable or not allowed to make even ATC communications but the company uses them to increase the duty, the captain extension of the duty is REQUIRED. instructors professional level and judgement is very poor,

they are very rude and they do not apply even basic procedures , I have been told that nowadays with modern instrumentation it is better to fly with newspaper on the windshields so that you are more fresh at landing. the simulator check is a lottery , mostly foreign pilots do not pass the sim check.


pilots meetings are all about what kind of punishment you will get if you make a mistake , the English level is generally very poor, Chinese captains smoke and sleep in the cockpit , they will touch the FCU even as PM.

Hotels are being improved but still you will find yourself imprisoned with no chance to eat western food in dirty hotel rooms.

So guys : I was working in a professional environment before Spring , and I have to say : for those who like to make some money ( at least in dolllars) at the cost of their professional dignity this can be the right place , but prepare yourself and give me some feedback once you have joined ;)

[CaptainProp]

That’s very interesting to read. I have heard almost only good things from people who are or have been in Spring before. I’ll ask around and get update from some other guys.

CP

[Slarberg]

From four friends I have working there right now.

Expect around 18/20 nights outside Shanghai. Love Zbsj/Zgsz/Zggg hotels are lower than 2 stars

Expect only 36 hours in Shanghai every 7 days according CAAC minimum rest.

Expect lots of China layovers.

Good flights are for Chinesse pilot. Allways flights from/to Pudong. That means 1 hours os bus going and back every time (1 going another coming back)

No salary increase last 3 years.

People leaving to other carriers (BCA/LOONGAIR/HNA...)

No choice to change Leaves...

Expect lots of calls to make them a favour... But they dont help you.

[Sixten_Dozen]

Very interesting reading guys/gals.

ive been told recently that the basic pay check is about 20000 a month full time and nearly 15000 for 4/4 and a BKK-base are most probably a reality after some 8 months of route training in Shanghai which will be conducted on your preferred roster, 6/2 6/3 4/4 etc.
When I now read the most recent posts here from this month I fear this is not the whole story.
Since I have a son, 6years old, this facts it’s of outmost importance for me to get verified.
I can stand the route training with 16h+ days and pretend I’m on backpacking trip SE Asia like 20years ago for a while when overnight 4 days in a row, freezing my arse of or whatever, no problem.
Just want to know they live up to roster, for example 6/3 strictly or to expect changes on that?
( plan is to bring family to Thailand forever so Shanghai time is just a parantese in the context)
After reading this thread I have my doubts to make an understatement. And you’re also welcome to laugh the hell out of you but I really had to raise my doubts in print and would appreciate a very quick answer from someone consider himself capable, since I’m about to book my ticket for screening ( which they will refund but I don’t know where, when or how or even why)

pls spare a minute for quick reply, I’m on the bookingsite right now.

best regards, Mike , naive, w/ Thai family and new dreams

[Sixten_Dozen]

[email protected]
by the way
and can’t quote on my iPad evidently

[Slarberg]

From inside the company

You never will get Bangkok base, either after release.

Already more than +60 captains already requested BKK base.

Actually 3 planes based there, 15 CPT based, and thats it.

A lot of crews from Shanghai goes every night to BKK and spend some days there.

Then, even the agency is telling you that you will get BKK base after release (now people more than 1 year under training because there are no enough instructors to release them) base are based on seniority....


Roster is a mess.
Doesnt matter with roster you are, 6/2,6/3,4/4.
Expect 4/5 days lines, with 3/4 nights outside Shanghai. Allways.
No round trips for foreigners.
You will start at 6 am first day, go somewhere like ZBSJ; ZGOW; ZSNB, and you will stay there around 4 or 5 days (the longest one is ZSYA wich is 5 days with 4 nights there and 1 day off in between)
then the las day go back Shanghai around midnight

36 hours rest time, and then Start again with the loop.

People is spending around 6/7 FULL days in Shanghai only.
People on 4/4 use to pay only for 8/10 hotel nights at Shanghai.

You are not going to be base in Shanghai, you spend 6 days a month in Shanghai. You are going to be moving around Spring bases all month, and more and more, because there is no space in Hongqiao or Pudong to put more planes there, also Spring is low cost, then they DONT pay the enough money to local people to have good flights, stands, parking lots in Shanghai for more planes, then, more and more planes are coming, to ZGOW; ZBSJ; ZSNB, ZYSA; new Beijing soon, but not to Bangkok. A lot of people waiting that dream

Now people are leaving....
Pay is lowest in Chinese market (even for same roster is 4000$ less a month compared to BCA; 2500$ than Loong Air, HNA group...), roster is the worst one, leaves now CANNOT be changed. You must work in Christmas, Chinese new Year, now company wants you to Work also ALL summer with NO leaves, but they don't give you any leave you want....

That is now Spring...

Have a look in other companies before come here.
As people tell you here, is the WORST one at the moment, and you WILL NEVER get BKK base....

[Slarberg]

Asked my friends today.

40 CPTs leaving in the incoming months....

And again, BKK base never will happen...

[CaptainProp]

This really is a massive change from the information I got from guys there about 3-4 years ago. Good to see that this type of information is shared here on pprune though.

CP

[Sixten_Dozen]

Asked my friends today.

40 CPTs leaving in the incoming months....

And again, BKK base never will happen...

Thanx Slarberg. I really appreciate it.

[Slarberg]

This really is a massive change from the information I got from guys there about 3-4 years ago. Good to see that this type of information is shared here on pprune though.

CP


Yes.

There is a massive change on that company

4/5 years ago, people used to work 3/4 days, and had 2/3/4 days OFF.

Now the rule is 4/5 days working then 36 hours minimum rest, then again 4/5 days working 36 hours again,

Before used to be 1 to 2 nights outside Shanghai a MONTH.

Now is around 18/20 nights outside, in places like ZBSJ, ZSYA, ZGGG, ZGSZ, with dirty hotel, below minimums standard, with s.... food, nobody is eating in that hotels.

Before, ALL foreigners used to have Christmas leave.
NOW NO, you MUST work in Christmas, Chinese New Year, and also they are trying to keep you ALL summer with NO leave, and they don't allow to make any change, if you request something they say NO.

Before was a "good company", now they are the LOWEST pay is China, WORST schedule, WORST hotels, WORST conditions and seems to be no improvement in near future....

STAY AWAY FROM THAT COMPANY

[Royce911]

Good day,

I'm looking for inside informations about Spring Japan.
Most of the recent posts on this thread is about China.
I'm in very interested with a non commuting position with Parc Aviation in Japan.

Kind Regards

[RUMBEAR]

Might not be much info on Spring Japan here as they only have a couple of aircraft. Non commuting is just a roster choice. This would be available at IBEX, Peach and Jetstar Japan. Ar Japan is probably the only expat position in Japan that requires commuting.

[zumzum]

hi,

just wanted to give my 2 cents from the inside:

BKK is not an option. Many Captains are waiting for it but there is no expansion whatsoever. Also, even if the base sounds great, flying schedule is almost unsustainable with only night flying: report time around 7/8PM with landing back at around 4/5AM. There are no flights operated during the day...so fatigue concerns are the biggest threat.

The Company realised they are losing too many pilots so they came up with revised T&C which are actually less attractive for new joiners as 4/4 and 5/4 patterns are not available anymore...as a new entrant you can therefore only opt for full time, 6/2 or 6/3. These patterns, under the current schedule, are very hard as time spent away from base and general rostering make pilots life a living hell (no joke): hotels are terrible...especially Shenzhen, Guangzhou while others are simply in the middle of nowhere...crew food has doubtful origins and is eatable only by the locals.

worth mentioning are also First Officers: very bad english in 80% of the cases with poor CRM and sub standard flying skills.

In general, I would stay away as competitors offer at least better working conditions and money...

good luck,

zz

[thirstyhorse]

I guess Mr. Slarberg is happy with the new T&C. He must be on 6/3. Yes, forget about any bases and 4/4, 5/4. Company wants to eliminate 4/4, 5/4 altogether, so don't join thinking you will get 4/4 on your renewal.

[Slarberg]

I am with you men.

Now; the dont allow us to be anymore on the 5/4 or 4/4 contract.
That means you can join now on Full time; 6/2 or 6/3....
They increased the salary now; but hey men; You are not based in Shanghai!!!!!
On my previous months I've been 4 full days in Shanghai a month.
I spent my fully month in ZBSJ bad hotel; worst food; nothing to do. ZGOW; ZGSZ; ZGGG. I got one Jeju pattern but..... If you are not int the "mafia" you will not het any Singapur flight; even Thailand... People spend days off moving around office giving them presents in order to get good flights; fxxk.

We are a lot of people leaving company in next months. My contract finish and I am.not going to stay in that **** anymore.
As he said; competitors.are giving me more.money; good hotels; and now good Caac license holder bonus when joining.

I heard they make some agreement with an Airline... I think they didnt tell them the TRUTH!!!

Working patterns like 5on 3 off; 4 On 2 off... Is a BIG LIE. 5 days down the road and then you have 36 hours rest; but men; starting from Pudong; that means you have to remove at least 3 to 4 hours rest due to lovely suttle bus from office till Pvg that they dont take into account!!!

[Slarberg]

I am not happy with my 4/4 roster. I got no salary increase; these inprovement are a lie and a joke

[thirstyhorse]

Mr. Slarberg is correct. Their plan to replace the guys leaving is to make the remaining pilots more productive. Eliminate 4/4,5/4 or make it so repugnant that they think your only choice is to switch 6/3,6/2. No salary increase on 4/4,5/4. They even want to make the remaining guys on 4/4, 5/4 baseless; spend entire 28/35 day rotation on the road with your 36 hours rest wherever you happen to be on day 5. Their way to force you 6/3. As Mr. Slarberg pointed out there is also another option.

Kudos to you Mr. S to broach the topic of "Mafia". This is culturally correct in view of who most of these individuals are. So sad when these guys do this thing when they know full well that every improvement in there roster makes another foreign colleagues roster worst to the same degree it makes theirs better. Shame on these guys.

[Sixten_Dozen]

I would really appreciate to hear about present situation at Spring now. I now a lot of things was bad before but I also expect they had to improve for you expats.

I met some guys when doing the medical and was confirmed that many of you guys were about to leave soon after first contract was finished.

I just have the CAAC checkride to pass now and would really appreciate an update about “My life with Spring”. As a Scandinavian I know all about The life at Spring, after the long dark winter. Short skirts and so on....
Also if anyone have something useful to share with me for the upcoming last and final sim check would be of great value for me.

Are the Chinese examiners generally ok? English spoken and can stand a white face like me or can you end up with an old fart just hating foreigners?
I have heard the worst stories from Korea.
My Springcheck were outstanding good.
very relevant cases in Sim and a great guy checking us. Communication was spotless (cause his English was better than mine)
Anyway. All news about and from inside Spring is highly valued.

With my outmost best regards, Sixten, Swedish Sixten😉

[Slarberg]

Did you ask your Scandy fellows?

I just finished my contract two months ago...

Same story..... NO CHANGES

They promissed a stable working pattern. Work 5 on 3 off, 4 on 2 off, but we were doing 5 days 36 hours....

They only try to get people. They dont care about people when they are inside. They think the Iberian pilots are going to be the solution, but when they check the Hotels 1 star we have in China... they will complain.

Spring is a No Go airline inChina, beause of roster

II finally managed to finish my contract, but still waiting my release pappers.... they allways do the same, they wont give you the pappers just in order to "block" you with them....
As you said, I know few Cpts they are waiting the end of their contracts just in order to leave without any penalty....

Now, they are putting some Non standar CAAC SIM for new people, just for the Xiamen accident, and also the BCA.... people is being failed.....

The roster is the same, the promissed a lot last summer, but NOTHING happened and wont happen till next year with the new regulation, when they will work 5 days On 2 days Off...... instead of 36 hours like now...

You must speak with your Scandy colleges there....

There are greeners pastures out of China.... (dont think this will be like your SAS....)

[zumzum]

Hello SixTen,

I will try to give you the most unbiased info possible as you are looking to make a big step in your career.Let me try to help.
Last year many pilots left because of bad working conditions. This pushed Spring to act. They tried to improve and promised many changes: from pay-rise to better roster patterns.
This eventually stopped the bleeding as people, I assume, were waiting to see the promised changes happening.
Unfortunately this was not the case: yes they increased salaries but only for some contracts (6/3; 6/2 and full time) and decided to stop accepting any other contract option (5/4 and 4/4). At the moment you can only join spring on what they consider mid productivity contracts (6/3 and up).
Roster is not good: expect to fly mainly to Chinese destinations and to stay away from base 5/6 days out of 7. (36 hours are the norm but you should expect 48 hours rest by January 2020). A lot of operation is from Shijiazhuang (North-East of China). Probably the worst place I have ever seen. If not Shijiazhuang then Guangzhou and Shenzhen (both also not good) are also the main places you will spend most of your lonely days. Layover Hotels are well below western standards (Guangzhou however has been upgraded recently in the hope to attract some pilots to be based permanently there)

The vast majority of Instructors and local pilots (including many FOs) have very poor english levels. Those that speak good enough english are employed by the Foreign Division. Speaking of Foreign Division, your Leader (Andy) will never be there, so do not bother to contact him or count on him (he has been appointed for political reasons). Everything is run pretty much by a Taiwanese guy (Henry) which is a puppet of other leaders. He lacks any leadership and decisional skills. Please do not trust him as he is a double-faced guy. He pretends to sell you the idea that he understand westerners because he is from Taiwan and that you can talk to him. Not true, stay away. Also the same Taiwanese community distrust him.

Cultural shock will be there and it took me a while to adjust (you will never fully adjust to be honest) and to start tolerate them.
In terms of pressure well, its off the scale, but that's common to all Chinese carriers.

Regarding Sims, thats a lottery: there is a lot of stress associated with it but you should be ok unless some guy doesn't like you or you are too noisy. In fact, I believe that yes, they need some foreign pilots but they are not desperate either. So this allow them to kick people out if they want to with all the associated benefits (keep the others aligned). Sim checks work like a charm for that purpose...I hope you understand. I know of a few guys that failed a new random sim check (only for foreigners) and some of them were forced out after that. There is a new policy that will interrupt your contract immediately if you fail 2 sim checks within your 3 years contract. Keep this in mind.

Positive sides: money its ok, but as you can see, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch...

Good luck and enjoy the ride while it lasts...

zz

[Slarberg]

Yes.

You are right

A lot of us we were waiting for what They PROMISSED last July 2018...

Working patterns (5-3/4-2/3-2.....)
Better hotels....

ZBSJ/ZGGG/ZGSZ/ZGOW/ you know what I mean.....
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Finally we got to be out of there!!!

They think they can call you anytime...
They fail you when they want.... Because someone doesn't like you....

There are better places to work in China....

And also outside China!
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[Sixten_Dozen]

Thank you indeed for updated info ZZ. Makes it really hard to take a decision. I would really like to have a contract now when I’m so far in the process but obviously I didn’t do my homework when applying for these in particular. I was kind of blinded about the BKK-opportunity offered and now I really don’t know if I have the power to go through it all again with another airline.
SixTen

[Sixten_Dozen]

And thanks again Slarberg.

[Slarberg]

I am sorry to be so CLEAR....

When I was still flying for them they asked for people for BKK base.

We applied around 90 captains and only 5 were based there.... And no more aircrafts going to Thailand because of Chinesse corruption.....

I am sorry to tell you Spring is at this momment the WORST airline to work for in China....

You have higher salaries around (BCA;HNA; Long Air....) With better rosters and of course much higher standar hotels....

And also Spring is desperatr to quit people who is at 4/4 or 5/4 contract.... They didnt want us
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[FlightDetent]

... if I have the power to go through it all again with another airline. Sorry for bringing salt to your wound, but after you'd touched CAAC systems (medical, ATPL) you are locked with the airline. A release is usually possible only after finishing one's contract - if no bad luck is encountered. The CAAC themselves are apparently not too eager, local pilots get penalty points for transferring companies.

There's a number of things that could be pointed out to cheer you up.

[Slarberg]

Sorry for bringing salt to your wound, but after you'd touched CAAC systems (medical, ATPL) you are locked with the airline. A release is usually possible only after finishing one's contract - if no bad luck is encountered. The CAAC themselves are apparently not too eager, local pilots get penalty points for transferring companies.

There's a number of things that could be pointed out to cheer you up.


Even you finish your contract without any QAR; penalty or something they are not giving us the pappers .. .

Allready waiting the pappers from Spring 3 months!!!!!


And I am sure they wont do it until I call a lawyer...

[Slarberg]

And you can check it.

Ask ANY agency telling you bxxxxxxit about BKK base or any promise to write it down in your CONTRACT.

They will NEVER de that.

Any agency they will try to tell you that after being release; after one year; after.....

There was people allready on the company 7 years and they got 5 months ago BKK base and they were only 5 CPTs....

Is supossee to be a "seniority" at Spring...
1st Years of contract
2nd Type of contract (6/2 then 6/3 then 5/4.... But they removed 5/4 and 4/4)
3rd "Rank of Cpt" C;B;A.


Then... Any promisse is just that.... NEVER will happen

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[Gncy]

Hello,

I am revisiting this post, I thought about joining until I read it. Anyone flying there who could testify? Is it still that bad?