How to mount a fast jet ;)

[spamcanner]

Does anyone know the reason that tandem fast jets are always designed so that the crew enter from the port side? Perhaps it harks back to the days of the cavalry? Any thoughts? The question has this team of aircraft engineers stumped! :ugh:

[Bob Viking]

Is it because that's the side with the opening? It'd be much harder to have to climb over the canopy.
BV;)

[Rossian]

I seem to remember I got out of a Bucc on the stbd side. So I presume that I got in on that side.

The Ancient Mariner

[Courtney Mil]

Haven't you noticed? You enter an airliner from the left too. And, yes, your surmise is correct. Royal Flying Corps and all that. "Always treat your woman like you treat your kite!"

[L J R]

I find that the Left side is the correct term......Port is where ships go.....

[orca]

The Sea Harrier steps were on the starboard side, as were the built in ones on the mud variant.

Cue no end of 'That wasn't a fast jet' banter.

[BEagle]

Gnat - right
Hunter - left
Buccaneer - right
Hawk - left
Phantom - left
Vulcan - underneath
VC10C1K and VC10K4 - left
VC10K2 and VC10K3 - right

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Picked up a jet from Boscombe once that had just had a mod flight tested. They put they steps up the starboard side. Very strange. Doesn't matter which really, but you learn the external checks from a particular start point, so it makes sense to stick with one side for the entire outfit.
Tiger Moth, Lightning, Jaguar, Harrier GR3, Tornado, LEFT
Jet Provost, Bulldog, Lightning T-bird, BOTH

I guess from BEagle's post that maybe Boscombe thought a Tornado was like a Bucc.

[Rigga]

the steps for the Bucc fitted on both sides!

[Airborne Aircrew]

(http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/475437-how-mount-fast-jet.html#post6982748)How to mount a fast jet

Pretty much the same as you mount it's pilot? :}

[alisoncc]

Remember from my days at Leconfield, we used to lower the jockeys into our Lightnings from the top using a sky hook.

[BBadanov]

AA: Pretty much the same as you mount it's pilot?

Hmmm... "...the same as you mount it is (or, it has) pilot"? Doesn't make sense. Oh, do you mean the possessive of "it" - that's "its".
No worry - it still doesn't make sense. :confused:

Pedant hat off, end of English lesson to a Pom/Yank. :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Pedant hat off, end of English lesson to a Pom/Yank.

Touched a nerve then poofter? :E

[JT Eagle]

Saab Lansen - right
Viggen - left (clamshell canopy but ladder seems always to have been on the left)
Gripen - right

I know the Swedes changed the side of the road they drive on, but they seem a bit undecided about their jets.

JT

[DBTW]

The term "convention" springs to mind. The same question as to why captains generally sit on the left in multi-seat aeroplanes. Having come home to Oz where everything is strictly regulated, I have searched extensively on the latter to find that an aircraft captain can clearly sit wherever he likes because there is no rule that says anything else.

I guess the same applies to pilots mounting? They can choose which side is most convenient.

Other than that's where the ladder fits (making a right hand mounting most convenient), I am not sure why the SHAR and other RN jets came up the right hand side. Given aeroplanes were usually ranged along the starboard side of the ship, one reason could be that when manning up with a big wind over the deck it felt better to be forced onto the ladder and into the cockpit rather than the other way around.

I suppose that's also a possible reason why, when we had all the crab jets on board as well, they often used to be ranged along the port-side?

[Lima Juliet]

Tornado with "hot pit refuelling" and an "engine running crew change" was always get in/out on the right - all other times on the left.

LJ :ok:

[Pontius]

You ever notice, DBTW, that nobody ever climbed up the starboard wing when there was no ladder available? Biggest pain in the arse was the T4 with no ladder and having to clamber over the inter-cockpit paraphernalia.

The Yanks had the right idea, with a nice little ladder that plonks out when you open the canopy but, enough of that, I can't be seen to be commenting positively about the seppos :)

[orca]

My hypothesis is that people used the port wing when there was no ladder on the SHAR because they got in the habit of doing it when the probe was fitted. That gave you a bit of a shelf to 'jump' from. (Or to leave your sandwiches while you stowed the F700.)

[TBM-Legend]

F-104 was right side. Most USN early aircraft like the TBF Avenger/Corsair/Hellcat etc were right sided. The reason I was told was that is effectively the "inboard" side on carriers ops.

[orca]

Pontius. The GR7/9/ AV-8B steps seemed to be set up (incredibly precisely) to ensure that when you were wearing your goon suit and thermal clobber you could get your right boot up to, but not over, the canopy rail. I seem to remember having to use your right hand to assist in the whole caper.

[Arm out the window]

I reckon the predominance of port-side aeroplane entry would stem from cavalry days, seeing as I have it on good authority (remember reading it somewhere...) that being a good horseman augured well for your chances of success as a pilot in the early days.

While on the subject, I'd like to put a complaint into the chief film horse-inclusion officer of Hollywood about the way those seppo cowboys get off their horses - they take their right foot out of the stirrup, swing the leg back over the horse and step down with the left foot still in the stirrup, a good recipe for getting dragged, as any fule kno.

The right way, at least as my old Dad taught me, is to remove both feet from the stirrups, slide the right leg over the horse's bum and slide down the left side with both feet thus well clear of the stirrups.

[Pontius]

Orca,

That's why Ronald McDonald fitted those intake thingies. Rumour has it they were useful for engines but I reckon they were giant steps on which to stand before making the final ascent. Very pleased to say that my 'B' time was spent in warmer climes and didn't need to worry about goonsuits :ok:

[dmussen]

BEagle.
I have never mounted a Gnat from the starboard (right)side.
Consider being taught to ride a horse. Have you ever mounted a steed from the right? I have not.
Wasn't the Vulcan frightening? Big oleo leg right behind that bloody hatch.
The Victor was port side infront of the the Armstrong Whitworth noisy things. Did anyone ever successfully jump out of a Victor?
I had a bang seat up front but did not like the odds for the chaps down the back.

[Cows getting bigger]

I always thought it was done that way because the vast majority of pilots 'dress' to the left. Have you ever tried getting your unfeasibly large tackle over the edge from the wrong side?

[sitigeltfel]

Perhaps it harks back to the days of the cavalry?

Probably correct. Cavalry=horses - Royal Flying Corps=still horsey era - then RAF. Easier for a right handed chap to swing his right leg over the side to get in. Old habits die hard.

Just a thought. Don't the brown jobs clamber into their Apaches from the Starboard side? Must be an American affectation.

[BOAC]

I think we should leave the rotating palm trees out of this discussion with their strange predilection for Captain's seating (some silly argument about torque, I recall)!

You basically 'mount' where the access is (makes 'three in a bed' a challenge.....). If Mr XXX put footsteps on the left, that is normally where you get in. If groundcrew put steps on the right ditto. If a side-by-side, one normally uses both.

With 'walk-rounds', the main thing is to remember where you started and finish up there again.

[A2QFI]

Consultation with a colleague, with whom I instructed at Valley for 2 years, reveals that we got in from the left hand side, in the opinion of our joint but old memories!

[BEagle]

To be honest, it was such a long time ago that I'm not actually sure from which side one climbed into the Gnat back in 1975.

Perhaps I'm confusing opening the canopy to do the initial checks before the walkround? Because the canopy handle was certainly on the right.

This photo would seem to indicate that right hand side entry was the norm at one point though:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Gnats.jpg

[Halton Brat]

Some casual observations on various points raised:

1. My beloved Gnat had the Canopy Lock/Unlock handle (internal & external) on the Starboard side; access steps were normally positioned on the Larboard side.

2. The custom of mounting a horse from the left side originates in the fact that a right-handed sword-wearer will find this best, ie sword/scabbard hanging from left hip.

3. Some horses, particularly those operating in mountainous areas, will be trained to accept being mounted from either side, due to the problems posed when mounting on a precarious narrow trail.

4. Arm Out the Window: having been an 'English/Classic' rider from my youth, I learned to ride 'Western' style some years ago (much better IMHO). I got yelled at for dismounting in my customary way, ie feet out of the stirrups first. The 'Western' dismount is indeed as you describe, keeping the foot in the stirrup until the other foot is on the ground. This may originate in the often large bundles which can be secured to the rear of the saddle; one needs to swing the leg up & over same by standing up in the saddle, using the still-stirruped leg. 'Western' horses (often Quarter Horses) are generally smaller than a typical 'English/Classic' mount, where the height of the horse will make keeping a foot in the stirrup during dismount difficult & dangerous; this is not so with the smaller mount. I have never had a problem with the 'Western' dismount.

5. I did, however, have a massive problem when mounting a feisty half-Arabian 'Western' horse; as I threw my spur-equipped right foot over his back, unbeknown to me, he flicked his tail up & my spur became tangled in it. I was looking forward (to ensure correct orientation in the saddle, one should see a pair of ears in the 12 o'clock), & could not understand why I could not get my leg over (a perennial problem....).

As I jerked my right foot about (still attached to his tail), he grew bored with this & took off like a Grand National favourite. So, I have my left foot in the stirrup, my right foot tangled in his tail, and the reins clamped in my left hand against the front of the saddle, which my posterior has yet to be installed in. As he galloped up the paddock at Vne+, I was worried that if I ejected myself, I may end up being dragged under his pounding rear hooves, so I stayed with it. A looming steel fence athwart our path posed a problem which he solved by making a 90' max-rate turn left; I did not participate in this & instead flew over his neck, impacting said fence with some gusto & panache. Hospital food is awful, isn't it?

6. Profound apologies for the most outrageous thread drift; perhaps though, the above may serve as a salutory warning of the dangers of getting one's spurs caught in the rudder whilst mounting one's fast jet from the wrong side?

HB

[A2QFI]

Good Morning Beagle! I see in the background of your excellent photograph the sort of wheeled platform which I sort of recall as being the normal mode of entry on the left side. In the end it isn't going to matter one way or the other! I survived 800 hours in the back seat without incident, whichever side I got in!

[BEagle]

Not my photo - it's one I found on the Internet.

Hope you enjoyed your 800 hours in the jet!

[Halton Brat]

I seem to recall that the Gnat had a fold-out step in the left Intake outer skin for ease of access to the rear cockpit? Also, was the rear cockpit Blast Screen slightly 'cut away' on the left side for the same reason?

HB

[Ken Scott]

Spamcanner, the original poster, and others are correct in that you mount your aircraft from the left because that's the side you mount a horse - although as with every rule there are exceptions. Civil aircraft still have entrance doors on the left (that connect with the bridges at airports) and the right side doors are service doors.

As has been said the ability to ride a horse was seen in the early days of aviation as an indicator of flying ability and thus it was seen as normal to enter your aircraft from the left hand side. As aircraft became more sophisticated it made sense to standardize on entry/ exit on the left & refueling & other services on the right so that they didn't interfere with each other.

But as I said, there are always exceptions - Lancaster, Mosquito, B17 amongst others. A number of light aircraft also have the door on the right so as to allow entry/exit without interfering with the person in the pilot-in-command seat.

[A2QFI]

Thanks Beagle. It was great when the weather was good and a bit of a x-wind to assist the view for back-seat landings! Sometimes it was challenging but where would we be without challenges? In the course of looking for pictures of the "mounting" arrangements I came across this link to aircraft losses and deaths which brought back some less happy memories - Tim Mermagen, Bill Forse and many others

Folland_Gnat (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/Folland_Gnat.htm)

[NutLoose]

I thought it always went back to Captains sitting on the left so they put the door on that side so he could see people approaching the aircraft door... the VC10 Tanker still had the left door, just had the failed escape slide in it....

[Rocket2]

Ok Navy folks - are there any aircraft carriers out there with the Island on the left? If not why not?

[SASless]

Fighter pilots talking about "mounting" something.....and not one mention of the patently obvious method!

http://www.fspilotshop.com/images/F-105_6.jpg

[CatchThePigeon]

Not Navy folk, just a PPL/Spotter/Aviation History Enthusiast (i.e I've seen TORA TORA TORA, BoB and Dambusters at least 20 times and the childhood home was about three miles from St Athan) but I believe the Japanese experimented with carriers with the island on the LEFT in WWII. I have a vague memory that two carriers ,one lefty and one righty, were supposed to steam side by side and respective aircraft would take up left or right hand patterns according to their ship's configuration so as not to be a-conflictin' with each other. Or something. I don't know which side one hopped in a Zero though.

[Memphis_bell]

I personally prefer mounting her from behind ;-)

[orca]

I suppose that given the default circuit direction is left it makes sense that the island is on the starboard side, so that flyco can be on the inboard face of the superstructure from where Wings can criticise everyone in the entire circuit.

If previous posters are correct then carrier lay out is due to circuit direction, which is due to captain's seat position, which is due to cavalry SOP, which is due to scabbard position, which is due to left handers being 'under represented'.

And with the island on the starboard side you can leave rotary traffic in the starboard wait so VIPs in Flyco don't have to see them, because they came to see jets.;)

[cornish-stormrider]

IIRC a hot fuel and spin on a tonka would be over the right as the fuel goes in the right side so you leave the LH turning.

I pity the fool trying to climb in and out of the other side........
schloopp....

[Lima Juliet]

Re: Mounting from behind - the USN's C-9 is configured exactly for that! With the door at the front is it known as a "spit roast"?! :}

http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/C-9%20passenger%20loading.jpg

[airpolice]

Mounting from behind.....


Of course they do, the clue is in the name painted on the side of the aircraft.

[tartare]

...much amusement reading this.
Informative, juvenile and not one chance for a double entendre missed!
All in the best proon tradition. :)

[Tiger_mate]

90% of the worlds population of motorcyclists mount their stead from the left - the remainder are all left handed devil children.

One would assume that there is something in our makeup that makes cocking a right foot over the side first to be an easier or more natural (for right handed normal folk) task.

[LowObservable]

I wonder if people are right-footed as they are right-handed. Surely even kids with their first bike will get from the left, right-foot first. That also means that you right hand is the first on the controls.

Also, for car-dwelling Americans, getting into something you intend to drive from the left side is automatic.

I recall that the Swedes had a reason for left-hand hinge, right-side entry on the Gripen. I think that it was because the whole cockpit was small, and it meant that you would not get tangled up with the throttle.

Where and how the left-hand entrance (and right-hand service and support) convention for commercial aircraft got established, I have no idea, but it was universal very early on.

[ACW599]

I remember reading somewhere that most pilots instinctively prefer rolling and spinning left (and left-hand circuits) but right-hand barrel rolls.

[Mach Two]

...and formating on the right wing and having the AAR probe on the left. That's mainly because of cockpit layout and (in side-by-side, non-helo) the controlling pilot sitting on the left.

[Lima Juliet]

Re: Motorcycles

Which came first? The side stand or the leg? That's the reason I always mount my Trumpy from the left...