777F comparison

[Alcione]

Hello all,

I would like to ask to those who fly the 777f the following items;

- Which is the max payload that you can carry, with normal empty weight and with extended (if this possibility exists)?

- How much fuel you would need to make, with full payload, a five to six hours sector?

- With full payload and, let's say a low CI, Can you make Hong Kong Frankfurt, in winter time? With which speed?

- The last one; Anybody nows the operative costs of the 747-400, 777f and the 747-8?.assuming equal crew costs in each scenario.

Please no bull****ting, only data and facts.:ok:

[Charlie_Fox]

Max payload is around 106700 kgs. (empty weight 141400, max zfw 248110).
You mean trip fuel or block fuel?
You won't make HKG/FRA non-stop with a payload of more than about 95000 kgs.

[Alcione]

I mean both, trip fuel and block fuel.
Any hint of the remaining questions ?

[3pointlanding]

The 777 can make HKG-FRA under ETOPS.
The 777 also goes MEM-DXB, MEM-HKG, and MEM-KIX at MZFW

[Earl_Grey]

This was our yesterdays flight.

Payload: 106.550
ZFW: 248.000
TOW: 326.184
LW: 256.660

Flight Time : 8:02h
TripF : 69.524kg
Min Block: 78.800kg

CI: 170 around .84

Greetings!

[SMT Member]

Max payload is around 106.5 tons. She's good for 10.5 hours plus reserves at MZFW, not quite enough for HKG-FRA.

DOC is roughly 70% of a 747-400F.

[3pointlanding]

Weight to pounds burned is the magic number. Use that and the -400, or -800 for tha matter, cannot compete with 777. FedEx flies Memphis Dubai and Memphis Guangzouh non-stop at max zer fuel weight.

[Alcione]

The next question, then, arrises;

Korean air has received today the 747-8f and the 777f. Upon which fleet size is mandatory to have both fleets?

What are the complexity costs of having both airplanes?

In other wording, Why and when is desirable to have such combination?

:confused:

[711]

Volume and nose door would be my guess

I am not sure if the -800 really burns more on a payload/ tripfuel comparison, but I might be wrong. If anyone has the numbers..?

[SMT Member]

It's not a question of fleetsize, but rather one of commercial requirements and profits. Unless your business demands the availability of a nose-door, chances are the 777F will make you more money, as the cost vs revenue delta is very much in favour of the twin.

[3pointlanding]

Using Boeing numbers the 777 burns 25% less/pound than the -800, depending on the operator's procedures of course. There is no doubt the -800 has the advantage when only volume is considered but the 777 is cheaper by far. FedEx flies HKG-CDG, MEM-HKG, MEM-KIX, and MEM-DBX max loads.

[Leatherman]

I think a loadmaster should contribute to this as I believe the B777F is probably perfect for Fed Ex packets and such. But there seems to be some restrictions when it comes to heavy and bulky loads. For example engines in stands, pipelines etc.:=

[Flightmech]

The 777F doesn't have any problems taking engines in stands. Ok, it couldn't take a GE90-110 built up but it can be shippped in fan and propulsor modules. We were also told on training that a 744/748 couldn't take a built-up GE90 nose cowl for transportation also but he aslo came out with some other stuff that we later found out to be "non-factual":E

Like you say, pipelines etc are best left to the true nose-loaders like the 744F/748F due to restrictions loading through the side door on others.

[Leatherman]

But I think that the engines in stands, such as CF6, RRTRENTS, PW4000 ETC have to be on the center line. Unlike B747 where you can have them side by side.
The GENX GE90 can have a special rotating stand which is heavy and costs a fortune, but enables them to go through the side cargo doors.
You can't beat a nose job for special loads and quick turn around.

[SMT Member]

The MCD on a 777F is actually the largest in the business, making it quite a bit easier to rotate long/wide objects in and out. The cargo-loading system is computerised, allowing you to place a 16 or 20 footer at a given position, pull a couple of handles and it'll rotate in or out automatically. This goes a long way to reduce interior damage. When it comes to long/thin objects, the CLS can rotate anything up to 9 meters in length in and out of the door.

Here's a picture of a GE90-115 (sans fan) inside a 777F.

http://i41.tinypic.com/23sir81.jpg

[G&T ice n slice]

Computers turning your pallets for you??

Ha!

used to work it all out with squared graph-paper & a ruler & pencil.

Then stand in the driving rain & sleet & man-handle the built pallet around & over the in-door ball-mat ( 25% of the balls missing, 25% permanently jammed and 25% damn near rectangular). extra points if you manage to get the pallet run over your foot.

wet & cold, but were we miserable?

yes, of course we flaming were!

[Leatherman]

Ah you see. On the center line.
3 engines on the center line and your plane is full!:rolleyes::ok::ugh:

[SMT Member]

Apart from the 14 twin-track and one centre-line positions remaining on the main-deck, as well as lower-decks able to hold around 50 tons, yes, it's quite full.

There's also the not unimportant matter of the 777F main-deck door being 5 centimeters higher and 41 centimeters wider than that of a 747F to take into consideration. I have my doubts a 747F can take a GE90-115, whereas the picture above clearly shows a 777F can. Even if you can get a -115B through the door of a 747, you would have to load it centre-line anyway.

[grounded27]

The core engine would not be a problem (as seen in the pic), the fan case of a ge90-115 may be.

[stilton]

Impressive, how heavy is that GE-90 engine ?

[Flightmech]

18,260 lb (8,283 kg) I believe thats the entire engine though not just the propulsor/core section shown in the picture above.

[sled dog]

Dry weight 16644 lbs ( core section ).

[Flytiger]

Such a nice jet. Carbon fiber and it carries all that weight.

Imagine a future with graphite fiber air freighters.

[grounded27]

18,260 lb (8,283 kg) I believe thats the entire engine though not just the propulsor/core section shown in the picture above.


Trust me, just the propulsor, the fan is huge for the -115. They are normally transported separately. We truck ours to GE. The Fan rarely needs repair that we can not do in house, the propulsor being the major overhaul component.

May be the shipping stand for the added weight.

[grounded27]

You can also see the large fan case support bar in the lwr rt corner of the pic, I am surprised it is not bubblewrapped, supposedly not much tolerance for damage to this thing.

[stilton]

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Out of a Suitcase
Posts: 13

'Such a nice jet. Carbon fiber and it carries all that weight'


Don't think so, the 777 is pretty much all conventional Aluminium construction.

[SMT Member]

Here's a picture of the fan, loaded on a 16ft pallet laterally.

http://i42.tinypic.com/x0w85y.jpg

[Flightmech]

SMT Member,

Thanks for the pictures of the propulsor and fan sections loaded. Our MX instructor told us that the GE90-115B Nose Cowl Assy couldn't be transported as one lump on a 744F/777F. Obviously you have the knowledge. Ever transported one or know if it will fit? The said instructor was a little wide of the mark on some other facts so was just wondering if this was correct?

[SMT Member]

Flightmech

I don't know if it's possible, but given the size of the thing I have my doubts since it's almost the same diameter as a 737 fuselage (give or take). Never heard of anybody trying.

[cedgz]

Training Information Point
You can separate the upper and the lower halves of the inlet
cowl to move it. The upper and the lower halves are matched
sets. They are not interchangeable with other inlet cowl halves.

ref mm

TASK 71-11-01-000-801-H01
2. Inlet Cowl Disassembly
(Figure 201, Figure 202, Figure 203, Figure 204, Figure 205, Figure 206, and Figure 207)
A. General
(1) This task is the disassembly procedure for the upper and lower inlet cowl halves. You use this
task when it is necessary to separate the upper and lower inlet cowl halves for storage or
transport.

looks like that our instructor was right flightmech

also the only airplanes that can transport the whole inlet cowl without being separated in 2 are the AN124 and SHORT BELFAST, ref 777 Engine Ground Handling, GE90

[CAO]

I believe we (Atlas) have moved some GE90 and the new 787 GEnx engines without removing the cowls...but on the B744-LCF (Large Cargo Freighter).

Photos: Boeing 747-409(LCF) Dreamlifter Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing-%28Atlas-Air%29/Boeing-747-409%28LCF%29-Dreamlifter/1824642/&sid=9f27920ff0eed328ca3f9879d34e95ef)

[cedgz]

lol

big toy also this one:ok:

[ray cosmic]

The LCF is insane! I suppose it all depends whether you're packing weight, volume or outsize freight. The -8 (not -800!!) is a great machine, which can be great in case you don't need the range.. Apples and pears really,,

[Flightmech]

Cedgz,

Theres never a Shorts Belfast around when you need one! You couldn't blame me for asking. He did mention it could be transported and assembled on arrival. You know the instructor I'm talking about! You NEVER fix this airplane by pulling c/bs. Yeah right:E

[cedgz]

Flightmech,

exactly the same instructor, "when i was at U....."
he's right, it can be assembled at arrival, but for sure the plane will not leave the same day

[Flightmech]

Thats the guy:ok:. Don't know why he ever left there. I hope you still remember the name of his dogs!!:E

[cedgz]

I forgot the names of his dogs. I think he left because he was way too good, and so he could share his absolut knowledge to the others. And also, the stories were so nice:ok:

[grounded27]

Flightmech,

exactly the same instructor, "when i was at U....."
he's right, it can be assembled at arrival, but for sure the plane will not leave the same day

The instructor who could consistently fix aircraft by following procedure that the previous shift had ignored resulting aircraft grounded for several days needlessly. If he were just there for every turnaround U would not have any delays. The 777 expert who had 16 years experience with the aircraft and 15 of them were in training.

[Flightmech]

You know him then?:E

[cedgz]

very well:E

[grounded27]

I believe so, I show up for work just across the street from him on a very large airfield with very few passengers. We had a classroom of strong personalities and about 3 days in he had his manager come in and give a conduct speech. It was funny, W. interrupted the speech and was promptly told to shut up and sit back down at his podium. I do not think he has left a good impression of himself on any of his students. I think it is Hilarius that W is known globally for being a poor instructor. Sorry for the thread drift for those who have no freaking clue what we are talking about.

[triple7x]

To catch up the discussion again; I am interested to figure out more about fuel burn, take off and landing distances (max load, long range, standard wx condition). Figures about DOC are more than welcome as well. Thank you!