Firstofficer training

[offshoreman]

Er det noen som har noe innformasjon anngående Firstofficer programmer i Danish Air transport (DAT).

[viking146]

offshoremann!

You are entering very hot territory with your question. The subject was allready debated to death on www.flightcrew.dk (http://www.flightcrew.dk) (can't find the file anymore).

Do yourself a favour, stay away. JRs, lacky boys in STO will fill you with wonderful stories of how good the program is and how your career will take off - fact is - they have serious problems delivering the product they promised. There are too many people who want a piece of the cake, too quickly - result a half hearted program with delays that will cost YOU time, ergo money.

The sales team in STO, Steffan and Espen, pull in the troups without having any clue as to how much capacity the company can still cope. What happens, they have about a million first officer trainees on stand-by (some since last summer) who still do not have a rating on anything that looks like a DAT plane. But remember you have to pay up in advance so the make the intrest on your money from the day you join the program in STO.

What can I say, tough world out there. Money talks and JR knows that. You can do better at one of the other Scandinavian mini-carries, I have!

[offshoreman]

Finnes det andre selskaper i skandinavia som har slike pay for training program.

[viking146]

As far as I know DAT is the only one. I dont know how it works in Norway but in DK and SE if you get yourself a rating, eg. jetstream, you are pretty well off to beg for a job at one of the regionals. They might make you through bags for half a year. But what the hell at least they pay you minnimum wages, if you go to JR you have to pay yourself and still load planes.

The math is quite simple a jetstream or ATR ratig will go from anywhere between USD 10-15thou, add the cost of the MCC and your still cheaper off than at DAT. Sure there is not guarantee but the chances are good and with JR you´ll wind up waiting anyways.

Otherwise go to the US and buy a block there, just make sure the norwegian CAA accepts the time beforehand. There you can get yourself a rating and some time in better weather and an enviroment and company that respects pilots, not treating them as slaves, the lowest scum of the peking order. Or at least some companies do anyways. Try AMFLIGHT!

GOOD LUCK, just write if you have more questions!

[Mr moto]

Offshoreman.

The advice you have received from here so far has been a little one sided.

Truth is, there are alot of pilots in Denmark who have a lot to thank Mr Rungholm for, but they forget that very quickly.

I don't know what the situation at DAT is at the moment but you should consider how many hours you have and how long you anticipate working for a company. Also, try to get a 'permanent' contract and treat free-lance work with caution, you could get a bill if you don't fly sufficient hours or if you quit before the expiry date.

If you have less than 500 hrs, DAT is as good as any of the others and if you are on a full-time contract, 18-24 months should see you with enough hours that larger companies will begin to listen and that you won't owe the company any money.

I heard a rumour that you get an MCC course aswell, that's worth Kr35,000.
Also, you could get a captain's rating fairly quickly and there's a pay rise with that.

Talk it through thoroughly with any company so no-one gets any unpleasant surprises.

Good luck.

[viking146]

Ok fair enough! Mr. Moto has a good point. There is a risk that you can caught up in a free-lance contract clutter, or a bond issue, if you sign on at a carrier and awnt to leave them in undue time, coz. the big boys are calling. So be real careful there!

Mr. Moto

I do not quite agree with you - Maybe some pilots do have JR to thank for, for what i do not know. Fact is - yes he may pay good for his CDRs but they have no tangible benefits (zero pension, loss of license, sick-pay, roster, etc.). In many cases, if you are a foreigner, you have to pay for your own upgrading (no bond, only cash).

Further F/Os pay now to fly on the right seat, so in actual fact the F/O effectively becomes payload. But with the lowest priority. Its fine for an F/O to bay for his rating or have if payed by the company and held by a bond, but to have to pay to fly the A/C in operations and pay for you seat thats squeezing the lemon to its limit. In my opinion thats labor abuse of a group of people who have it hard enough making ends meet after flight schools have neglected to tell them that their CPL won't get them a seat in SK for the first couple of years.

Sure I would go for it if I could not get a paid job, for the hours. Have a friend who did! But I find it moraly wrong to exploit people in such a way. It in every airlines interest to bring in new recruits and train them, especially when times are getting more and more meager.

happy flying

[QAY]

iam currently flying as a captain on the King Air With DAT.
i started myself as a first officer trainee two months ago and last month got upgraded as a captain.My career was not moving in the right direction until i got on with the the program.I do not believe i could have become a captain in any country and i mean any company within two months of first officer experience.
Lots of pilots think once they have obtained their CPL and 22o hours they are ready for the right seat job on the 737.
And the question about people have been sitting standby since last summer is something you can justify yourself with me.
Iam willing to answer any questions regarding this matter.
The fact is some of our New FOTs wants to be off when pilots are required and when we need them some of our captains are flying single pilot operations (only cargo).
Guys if you want to get done it is matter of dedication and showing some kind of entisuasim.Working hard and getting that big job your are dreaming about is not something that happens overnight.
In my time in DAT and from other fellow pilots people who have worked good and hard have all advanced in their careers.
For me personally being a captain on the king air making 24-25000 a month is more than satisfying.
And a upgrade on the ATR within 6-9 months.
and where you make more money than flying in lots of other companies in Denmark.
Pilots with 220 hours what experience do they posses????????
And what do they expect?
This is aviation and people have the tendency to say things without specifying all the facts.
"i heard this about DAT and so forth"
Iam open for a discussion with everyone about this matter.
And try to be a professional and give your suggestions or comments in an open way.

[viking146]

OK QAY, here we go again - wanna start the discussion - try to justify the fact that JR has FOs flying for him that pay for their seat? The world where I come from you get paid for services rendered. Apparently that is not the case on planet DAT.

Anyways I'm happy for you that you make such a wonderfull sallery, was that before or after the taxman said knock, knock? And what are you gonna do the day the CAA decides that your health does not fit their just newly made up rules - NO LOSS OF LICENSE - I don't even know if you qualify for the dough if you get booted out for health reasons.

But hey your satisfied, so am I - I am mearly questioning the use of free labor - worse yet the use of labor for payment!!!!!!!

SQWAK - say again

[offshoreman]

QAY

I have some questions for you.

1. What is the cost of the DAT, first officer program, on King Air?

2. How many hours do you get?

3. Are you guaranteed a pilot position with DAT after finishing up this program?

4. Do DAT operate the king Air (cargo) as a single pilot operation, with captains who only have about two months of experience on type?

5. How long time will you need to finish up this program?

6. Where will you get your base? if you partisipate in the King Air program.

7. What is the schdule for DAT King Air pilots like?

8. What is the minimum time requirement to become a captian on King Air in DAT?

9. Are you able to provide me with contact details within DAT, to partisipate in this program?

10. Will DAT accept me into the program with only a norwegian CPL, IR, MEL and a written ATPL, not a JAR licence?

Thank you for answering these questions.
OFFSHOREMAN

[This message has been edited by offshoreman (edited 13 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreman (edited 13 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreman (edited 13 April 2001).]

[Duttelut]

Personally I find it a bit worrying that you have become captain with only two month of flying on type. How much experience does a 220 hrs 737 F/O have? I don't know, but I do know that there is a knowledgable captain in the LHS. How much experience do you have to justify the LHS of a King Air and on top of it flying single pilot?

Isn't it funny? Everytime somebody critizise DAT, someone pops outta nowhere with only one post and tell how wonderfull it is to be at DAT.

[Mr moto]

Folks , I never said I agreed with the policy, its just the way things are.

The old saying goes " You can make a small fortune in aviation. But you have to start with a big one!"

JR is a good businessman and must be credited for that. His company provides a flow of pilots to larger companies, thus no major benefits except keeping the bailiffs at bay and seeing your hours steadily increasing.
Its not his fault that there is no requirement for a FO on the King-Air. Why pay some-one to do a job which is not required? OK it may be a shot in the foot if JR runs out of qualified captains but I doubt that will happen.
Some people are not able to pay for the program(me included) and this makes it grossly unfair, but we all make it somehow.
Low time captains may raise a safety issue but thats for the JAA to consider but if you can pass a twin-I test, thats it! You build experience quicker flying a mail run than scrounging around for hours on Samsoe.
Neither do you have to spend months as a baggage handler.

Remember everyone, where we came from, where we are now and how we got here!

[dick badcock]

Offshoreman

Med dine norske sert kan det bli vanskelig aa faa danske JAA sert. Vent til etter 1. juli, saa vil du faa ut norske JAA sert. Da aapner hele Europa seg!

God paaske!

[PicMas]

Takin' a chance of sounding sarcastic...

I must be in the wrong business if conditions are as described in the above posts, that you invest $50,000 in an education only to pay for your job.

IF everybody chose to NOT pay for their training i.e paying for that right seat to burn a little Jet-A and log some turbinetime, the companies would all have to pay their employees.

then again, IF if's and but's were candy and nuts.......

[viking146]

Gentleman, lets keep some perspective here.

Mr. Moto, yes correct, why pay an F/O on a King-Air when not required. But the F/O program does not extend to the reigns of the King-Air only, JR makes you pay for your seat on all his A/C inc. the ATR.
As I have mentioned earlier I believe that pay for own type rating or bonds are necesarry for the survival of the smal regionals, but to pay to fly in line operations thats rape of the student pilot, be it on a King Air or ATR.

You may call JR a capable businessman, some call him a crook. I prefer to refer to him as a businessman that excerts resources beyond the moral limit. But than again maybe money is the only moral in this business.

[Mr moto]

OK Viking.

Let's not get cynical.

There are good opportunities in the 'smaller' companies and there's alot of grunt work to be done. But we can't throw all the blame at those doorsteps.

To illustrate. Take any semi-serious flying mag and see how many ads describe your career.
Mostly you see a big grin with 3 or 4 stripes carrying his flight case up the stairs of the aircraft or just the big airliner with '0-ATPL for under £30,000.'

Many american ads do offer the exact same 50 or 100 hour FO turbine time programs as this thread bemoans. Thus the americans are actually closer to the truth with this form of advertizing than the europeans. There's a first!

The question is 'Is it not the flying schools who are selling an unrealistic or rather a too idealistic image of becoming an airline pilot?'

Another issue is the youth of today, they don't know what hard work is!

As for morals, sold my soul years ago!!


[This message has been edited by Mr moto (edited 14 April 2001).]