SAS Bashing

[Mr moto]

Its a thread that is never far from the surface but once in a while an individual needs bringing down a peg or two.
SAS is the largest airline in the this corner of the world but on a european/global scale quite average. Still its nice to be a big fish, no matter how small the pond.
SAS pride themselves on their service and professionalism and this is how they are perceived by the public. This benefits every-one otherwize there would be no well connected partners or competition.
The other side of the coin is, however, that they are often taken to be ******s and any thing else as sub-standard.
They are of course experts in their field; but no more so than Maersk or any other airline.

Regarding the failing of entry tests.
You may have forgotten that passing the tests and being selected for employment are two quite different states of affairs. It is not a right to be employed by any company which you are clever enough to work for. There are no guaruntees in this business!
There are, of course, other criteria. Having passed the tests the question is that of your suitability to the company and the company does take itself very seriously. It is not important how good a pilot may be, if you're not a company man you don't get in. Its not about flying skills anymore.

It has been my experience that many people who are not selected for employment take this rejection too personally, as do some people who are selected!

MD90jockey. Your arrogance, haste to put others down and inability to take a corporate joke is one of the reasons SAS bashing is such a popular sport! For the sake of the company, control your comments.

A fool who says nothing is a wise man.


[This message has been edited by Mr moto (edited 09 April 2001).]

[Juliet November]

Hear hear,

Under normal circumstances I'm a big favourite of some friendly SAS bashing, but that is a part of my Danish heritage to put down everyone and everything who sticks thier heads up and cry "Damn we're / I'm good". If nothing else, then for the pure hell of it.

In my line of work (dispatcher) there is no way I will ever even contemplate applying for a job with SAS. It has, from what I know, a very rigid company policy from which it will not deviate. Should I have had a similar job with SAS and like to advance to the next level, it would be necessary to complete several evening courses in commercial schools. Not that they would be necessary for the successfull command of the job, that's just the way it is. However, that is not the case with my company. Here you are judged by ability and willingness more than anything else. Schooling comes second and is not seen as an advantage if not needed for the job.
Each to his or hers liking, but rigid systems has never been my cup of tea. Especially when they are run by Swedes out of Stockholm :)

Secondly, and on this you may pick at me all you like, they are by and large a flock of geasers who are under the firm belief that SAS is the best, biggest and most beautifull company in the world. I have witnessed this several times, especially with new hires, and there is no way on earth you can reason with them.

As a flightcrew.dk friend would have put it "Hardhat deployed"

DT

my spelling s*cks

[This message has been edited by Juliet November (edited 09 April 2001).]

[MD90jockey]

Allright, MR moto, thanks for your post - and point taken ! I´ll admit that my comment on the passing of entry-test or not was inappropriate and disrespecttful to those unfortunate enough not to make it, and for those insulted - you have my appollogies...
I´m afraid I was provoked by the post from the upstairsdriver, but that doesn´t justify my reply, sorry.
Having said that I still think that his initial post on the topic was stupid and unnecessary !!!
And for the discussion on max.XWC for the new regional jets (e.g. Bombardier CRJ-200 or Embraer 135/145) please correct me if my information is inaccurate - do we have any typerated pilots, who can throw some light over this, pls ???

[liftdump]

Is SAS a great company - of course it is, I would call it job security. It is exactly the same with other large airlines.

I applied a few years back and did not get in, at that time I was not to happy however today I'm glad I failed due to the fact I'm now working for a better company with better equipment and most important, the social interaction at work is superior.

Beeing evaluated for a job and rejected is always hard, alot of questions always rise, why did I fail and so on.
But all of us know that different companies have different profiles and requirements.

The funny thing is that none of us would go to a test without studing and prepairing for months. It would be fun to se how much you can improve your testscores by doing so.

As a conclution, the sas bashing has nothing to do with their pilots, but in this job it is kind of important to be humble, otherwise people will notice, right MDpilot???

"Keep the dirty side down" (This can be hard for SAS) ;)

Sincerely,

[Scando]

A lot of you guys "know", because you've "heard", and once you even talked to one who... It seems you have one thing in common, you've never been there yourselves.
SAS demands you have the proper edjucation for the job, what a surprise, huh JN?
Are you guys surprised we (most of us) have a professional and personal loyalty towards our company? Why? How do you behave towards your own employers?

[Juliet November]

Scando,

You've missed my point, or I wasn't clear.

I've got absolutely no problem undertaking any tuition with relevance to my present or future job. However, having scripture written to me which has no immediate, future or even foreseable relevance with anything that I am even remotely attached to does not suit me. It is just waste of time, and hence money.

No this is not hearsay and please note that I am not talking about a flying position here.

DT

[TowerDog]

Since SAS bashing is in vogue these days, let me jump in with my 5 cents and perhaps get an honest answer:

The new SAS paint job sure rubs this cowboy the wrong way. It is close to one of the ugliest airplane exteriors I have laid my eyes on in a long time.

Who is behind the colors/design?
(Is it the work of a commitee, or is the bosses wife a wannabe and color blind artist?..... :))

Does it grow on the guys and girls that are exposed to it every day?
You guys like it?

Did anybody ever consider re-inventing the old dragon head paintjobs from the 50s/60s?
(That was a classic one that would look good today as well)

Take a vote?




------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[dick badcock]

JN says:

"...they [SAS employees] are by and large a flock of geasers who are under the firm belief that SAS is the best, biggest and most beautifull company in the world. I have witnessed this several times, especially with new hires, and there is no way on earth you can reason with them."

Bit of a generalisation, but I tend to agree. Isn't it ironic that when you are at the SAS interviews they want you to act humble and timid, then as you get the job you can be as hot headed and arrogant as you like!


Interestingly, I have heard that SAS has founded a committee that is looking to change their pilot profile (do not to which direction though!)

[viking146]

I think there are some pretty valid arguments here, but please allow me to add:

The point that Sk is a big-fish in a small pond is quite valid. With that honor comes the envy of others, thus the big fish will often be precived as "arrogant" purely due to his size.

In my opinon they do a great job, an airline that has made a place for itself, not only in scandiland but around the glode, and please lets not forget many of the regionals up here, would not be where they are today without SK. In general:
1, The in-flight service (take it from a regular commuter) is exceptional in most cases
2, The uniform is a fashion statement of epic dimenssion - I hope other airlines have picked up some tips
3, You can say alot about the paint job, but its sticks out, and isn't that what its all about?

dick badcock:
In answer to your remark about the average new-hire. I think that arrogance is a character trait that can be found in all corners of the SK world, but the majority of their staff is a friendly and cooperative bunch of professionals. I am sure that arrogance also blooms amoung some of you co-workers!

Sorry folks - I do not drive for SK, but the competition

[Juliet November]

TowerDog,

Quite agree, it's butt ugly. Funny thing is, the bigger the aircraft the better it actually works. A 767 acutally looks half-way decent. Or perhaps excessive exposure to the new livery has made me colour blind too ?
But them 737-600's should not be allowed in daylight hours !

Viking,

And you may take it from me too, that SAS does indeed provide excellent service, at least on Business Class, both on the ground and in the air. It would also seem that they've hired a whole lot of new Air Hostesses recently. Average age has gone down considerably, and it is not uncommon to be served by a babe these days. That counts for a lot, for me anyway.

Dick,

Yes it is a generalisation, and mainly applies to new hires in the lower echelons of the company. I know a few guys who drive for SAS and they're a great bunch.

Dolpin Trainer

[PiperChauffeur]

V146, you're right. The paint job is just a question of beeing noticed. I don't like it much either, but it works. Even FI has changed to same paint job (other coulors, but same style).

About SAS-bashing, it happenes everywhere: Just look at the Rumourspage. EZY, BAW and EK are in the line of fire everyday. I think the reason that we notoce the SAS-bashing here in Scandinavia is that it is the only airline with a big enough profile, for everyone to know. As an airline, SAS is not any worse than any other, in many ways probably a bit better (now that they are hiring new CA's, anyway).
PC

[This message has been edited by PiperChauffeur (edited 13 April 2001).]

[Hung start]

Bash SAS all you want guys and gals, as long as it´s not just hear say. Have something concrete to tie your opinions on SAS to, then go right ahead with all you´ve got. Hey, this would be a boring place to spend time, if we were all just padding eachothers (companies) backs.
What disappoints me (and tells more of the author than anything else) is the "I met a SAS pilot, he was a d***head, now all SAS people are arrogant a**holes"". Simply just too childish.

Towerdog´s opinions are valid, as they are not insulting to people that he doesn´t know, and therefore should not insult. (More than I can say of a few of the other posts that I´ve seen here)

Yes, I liked the old paintjob better too. I´m gettin´ used to the new one, but it´ll never get anywhere near the old dragonhead one. But really, I don´t give a damn. Most of my day at work is spent inside the airplane, looking out at all the other beautiful paintjobs passing by (BA tails, Air 2000, and what have ya´ :) )

The uniform; Never liked it. I look like an East German borderguard. And the quality stinks too, although they are making up for this now. But hey, I ain´t a model, and the first thing that I do, when entering my house after work, is changing clothes anyway.

Now, to more important things.

I make a comfortable living, but I want to make more. Not because I´m ever in the red, but because I´ve (we´ve) come to realise that we are lagging behind our colleagues in Europe, and because the market tells us that more money is up for grasp, if we go for it. Watch this space in the coming months, as negotiations carry on about our conditions. By now, it´s already looking interesting I might add..

The comment from Flathatter, that we in the SAS cockpits engage in "nonstop SAS bashing when in the crewroom and on the flightdecks" is another post from him, that has me wondering what planet this guy is living on!!! Let´s just leave it at that :rolleyes:

upstairs; grow up, and produce some constructive critisism. I agree, that SAS should have (in my opinion) bought RJ´s, but I have no knowledge of operational limitations on either RJ´s or Q400, so can´t comment much on what was behind the decision to buy Q400, other than it was more or less purely a question of pricetags..

JN, I hope I belong amongst the latter group, and not the former :)

As some have said; being the big fish in a small pond bears a price tag. And especially in Scandinavia, where the "jantelov" rules. (Can anyone come up with an english word for that??
But that´s OK with me. I´m very happy with my job, but there´l always be things that can get better. And there are many such things in SAS. But in our neck of the woods, I still believe, that it is by far the best place to be, considering the whole package.(Hard hat deployed :) )
Now, had I just wanted to have a zillion in my bank account every month, No, Scandinavia and SAS would not be the place to be. But I´ve chosen to stay, because of all the other, non-work related, things that I would miss in Lalala land, flying for Fantasy Airlines. Loved that post bu the way, whoever it was... :)

Reading all the ad´s, I find myself (or at least my logbook, I should say) qualified for most of the flying jobs available. And some of them look good too. But after all the adding and subtracting, I´m still choosing to stay. My choice! Gettit?

Then why, as somebody else pointed out, does it seem so important for some of you guys outside of SAS, to try to convince us that our company is as bad as they come, and that the grass is much greener where you are.. Could it be, that if I followed your advice and left.... then you could get the job. Naehhh, I choose to believe that most of us are fortunate to be where we like to be, and if not, then those affected should do something about it.

Last note to upstairson our service and cabin crew: I just got back today from a wonderful vacation in the Orlando area. Flew Continental Airlines domestic, and I tell ya´ : a company that just picked up five major awards from AOG should do better. Both flights had (compared to SAS) bad inflight service (sector time 2:45) . A cold burger was served with ONE round of (soft)drinks. A beer would set me back $4.00 http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
Cabin crew average age, well I don´t want to insult anybody as you do, but let´s just say that they were at LEAST as mature as our CA´s have been known to be. Friendly service?? Well depends, smiles I didn´t see many of!!
How service is with your company, I don´t know (who you fly for) but I sure wasn´t impressed by BA on two seperate long haul flights!!!


Rgds, and happy easter everybody.

Hung start

[Hung start]

Sorry, after a good nights sleep, I realise that I mixed two threads into one reply. My comments to Flathatter and upstairsdriver were intended for the other thread on "SAS voted no.1"

Dick Badcock; have you worked at SAS since you know all about how your fellow pilots act at the tests, and later on, during normal line flying?? And, sorry JN, have you???

Even after sleeping 12 hours straight, I can not comprehend how anybody can caracterize SAS pilots as a group as being arrogant jerks. It is a pilot group of 2500 my friends. In any group of 2500, you´ll find idiots. Also at DHL!!! I know that upstairs said that he didn´t mean to generalise, but that´s exactly what he (and others excel in doing)

viking146, <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In answer to your remark about the average new-hire. I think that arrogance is a character trait that can be found in all corners of the SK world, but the majority of their staff is a friendly and cooperative bunch of professionals. I am sure that arrogance also blooms amoung some of you co-workers!</font>

Wise words!!! Wish that more people would learn to look objectively at things the way you do.
Incidentally, I´ve flown on Premiair several times, and although my knees are located next to my ears for the duration of the flight, the servive and friendliness that I´ve encountered on those flights, beats many "scheduled carriers" business class!!

Edited for spelling errors!

[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 15 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 15 April 2001).]

[dick badcock]

Hung start

Good post, I think you clarified a lot in it. Of course you are entitled to your own opinons, and they are certainly very valid ones. I think the bashing is aimed at cooling down some of the few 'hot' heads out there who haven't opened their eyes completely. People who claim that SAS pilots are earning more than average major airlines in Europe, have great working conditions etc. Not normal people like yourself who enjoy your life- and workstyle.

As far as knowing people in SAS, I'd say I personally know about 50-60 pilots, mix FO & CMD and most of them are cool guys. And yes, I have also worked for SAS. The problem is the few rotten apples in the barrel that are spoiling it for the rest of you. And it's people like that that are remembered unfortuneately...

God paaske

[This message has been edited by dick badcock (edited 15 April 2001).]

[Hung start]

Hey Dick. I agree with ya´ and didn´t take offence at your post, especially after you now clarified it..
Yep, and those rotten apples sure stand out don´t they, since people here take so much offence, so that it turns into a bashing of the entire company and it´s 2500 pilots/29000 employees. My point is that I´m sure that the same amount of rotten apples are to be found in Premiair, Maersk, Sterling, Cimber etc etc. and of course the other countries in Scandiland. Why don´t we hear about them then. Never any bashing of the other companies. Are the employees of those companies that much more company loyal, that nothing gets out from behind those walls. Is that the very "keeping up the appearences" that Flathatter and others accuse SAS employees of being guilty of???

Not that I want to hear this kind of BS from other companies since it is, in my opinion, utterly noninteresting and irrelevant to these pages, just wandering what all these people have against SAS folks that they don´t know!!! Funny, they are all people who don´t or haven´t worked there, except you as far as I understand, and Flathatter who is a very bitter man!!!

[dick badcock]

Guess the problem is that all other companies have only a fraction of the pilots SAS has, and therefore are not as 'visible'. SAS is the big fish in the Scandinavian pond, just like UA is in the US.

But one must also remember the management people that show very poor attitudes with statements regarding recruitment (referring to infamous Hans Jorgen Jensen) who complains and complains about how the Scandinavian market is completely dry of pilots, 'where am I going to find 200 pilots a year....' blah, blah blah. We all know that there are plenty of QUALIFIED pilots out there, but SAS' policy of once a no, always a no is [in my view] a very arrogant one and is probably one reason why a lot of people are upset with SAS. Sure, maybe they failed their SAS interview when they came from the US or wherever with 800 hours or so, but by now might have 2-3000 hours of experience, maybe even command in jets and turboprops. Who is [HJJ] to say that these people NEVER can become pilots in SAS...? And we've all heard the stories of people getting in the second, third or fourth try. Just doesn't seem to be any consistency...

Also, I heard a report from a meeting in Norway, where all the head recruiters were present, and SAS stood up [not HJJ this time!] and claimed they would have no problems recruiting new pilots from the likes of Wideroe & Braathens [since SAS was a much more attractive airline to work for]. Was this guy not aware of the fact that a lot of these pilots he thinks will be 'easy' to recruit already have applied with SAS, gotten their NO and therefore cannot apply again...?

All this reminds me of the Linjeflyg story where a lot of 'nonqualified'*) [already gotten NO once from SAS] pilots became SAS employees overnight. These pilots are today the backbone of swedish pilots and are doing very well for SAS! Who is to say others, given the chance, cannot perform equally as well...?

Just my thoughts...

*) Just to clarify, I am NOT saying that the Linjeflyg pilots had poor qualifications, purely that a lot of them had applied for SAS initially and gotten no, further disqualifying them from applying to SAS again.

[This message has been edited by dick badcock (edited 17 April 2001).]

[Hung start]

Dick,


The problems and stupidities that you outline are things that SAS ought to have changed a long time ago.

A guy I consider one of my very best friends made the mistake of doing the tests a little early. He got (which is not std. procedure) some debriefing. All tests, except the sim. ride, were very good according to psycho´s and company rep´s, but he was rusty on his flying and got the boot. 3 years and 1800 B737 hours he tried to call SAS and was told no... :mad: CRAZY :mad:

And I´m sure that you know similar stories..

The reason I respect your post contrary to certain others, is that you do tie critique up to some real problems and stupidities in SAS and, I´ve said this before, of which there are many.



[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 25 April 2001).]

[Mr moto]

Dick.

A major foreign air force found that applicants IQ's changed very little with age but accepted re-applications. You go through the whole procedure of course and you get a little debrief. People mature. So I think your points about HJJ very interesting.

Incidentally, I read a quote in a commercial aviation magazine, "Accident-prone people usually don't stay at the sharp end for very long....Often they are promoted to management!"

I don't know if that is relevant to the above.

[Juliet November]

Hung,

I do belive you know that my feelings towards SAS is mixed. On one side they do provide excellent service when I am flying, and the majority of their employees are true professionals. However, there are quite a few rotten apples, who tend to belive that whatever they do is right because they are SAS. If you try to revers the favour they go ballastic, because they are SAS. Again, it is a minority, but they never the less succede very well in p*ssing me off quite often. And as said earlier, mainly in the lower echelons of the company. I don't really deal of lot with your management staff, but from what I have dealt with them they came across as friendly, cooperative, imaginative and helpful.

No, I've never been employed SAS, nor would I like to so in my present line of work. However, I do know 2 guys who's been working in CPHOW (Operations) for several years and just can't have a shot at a job on the next level for lack of totally meaningless tuition. I'm specifically talking about a HA or HD in economics, organisation, marketing or whatever. Doesn't really matter, as long as you complete either a HA or HD education.

In my mind, that would be tantamount to asking a FO upgrading to CAPT to complete a MBA in corporate strategy making, way over the hill. Trust you get my point.

And with that, I think I'll end the SAS bashing for and make my way to the gate here in CPH. Seat 1A on a MD80 going towards BRU has by name on it. SAS, of course.

DT

[Hung start]

JN,

I follow you 100% for most of your post, the only thing that I opiniate against was this one (and you said I could pick on you all I wanted):

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Secondly, and on this you may pick at me all you like, they are by and large a flock of geasers who are under the firm belief that SAS is the best, biggest and most beautifull company in the world</font>

By and large, to me means "in general" doesn´t it?? If I´m wrong, then I apologise..!
It´s the generalisation that I don´t like.. I know the idiots are out there!! :)

See ya´ mate, no hard feelings!!

[SlowAndSilly]

Re Dick Badcock's post,

I must agree with you that these people (SAS) have serious problems.

A friend of mine was rejected during the recruitment process. After having discussions with one of the officials at recruitment he was told that instead of lowering their requirements they would instead cut back on their flights!!!

And for the record; I've never applied for SAS/SC nor will I. There's better airlines!

Many nice people there though.

And DB! Have we met over a couple of beers at Dublin Apt last May?

[This message has been edited by SlowAndSilly (edited 24 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by SlowAndSilly (edited 25 April 2001).]

[SlowAndSilly]

TC!

Yes I think this is a negative thing. I think their recruitment process is quite silly as it is.

I know a bunch of great people who were refused during different stages of the process which fly for other "majors" around Scandinavia/Europe.

The whole process is disrespectful. And the episode with Linjeflyg proves my point.

At last, I don't think the guys at the top in SAS would cut back on their flights instead of changing(*) their rec process. There's no way that SAS can afford that.

*) When I say change I meen change and not lowering their limits!

[TowerDog]

Hmm, this testing and profiling and all that stuff required to get a job with SAS must be a big deal then if they are talking about canceling flights instead of modifying the process?

Uh, what about the folks that busted the tests, got a job with Linjeflyg and SC, then later they are indeed SAS pilots.
Does that mean SAS does not take their test's that seriously anymore?
(If ya pass 'em fine, if not we may merge with yer future company later and ya can still fly for us with no further testing)
Hello??

What is the big deal with the test if even SAS ignores 'em later?

(Perhaps I missed something here, can anybody
please set me straigth?)

Also one would think that such extensive testing would be in the name of flight safety and to prevent future accidents by recruiting only pilots most un-likely to screw up, yet SAS's accident record is far from clean and many high profile SAS mishaps are indeed labeled pilot error.

(Perhaps caused by pilots hired before these tests were introduced?)

Just for the record, I have never applied to SAS, failed an SAS interview or any SAS tests, just curious as to what the big deal is all about?



------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[vmommo]

The only way I would ever consider working for SAS is if they paid for my conversion, paid me full salary while I was converting and then paid me a descent salary - which will never happen.

One thing is for sure, life is great in the US. It might take a while to get where you want, but persistence will pay off!

[B-744]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't SAS forced to take over the staff of Linjeflyg. From what I understand Swedish law says that when a company takes over another then the employees have to go with it.

Regarding the SC guys hired pre-97 then I heard that they actually have to do a simple interview before getting accepted into SAS Airline. You might say, "why shouldn't they do the full thing?" Well, because the company already knows who they are from several years of employment.

I have done the SAS tests a few years ago and I found them very fair and generally relevant. I know that there are good pilots out there who are just as good as any SAS pilot even though they weren't accepted. We all have less fortunate days but when you go for an interview they only look at how you perform that particular day. I'm sure everybody could pass the SAS tests if given 10 chances but it is understandable that the company doesn't want to waste it's time again and again hoping that you will have your lucky day.

I don't think, though, that a NO is necessarily a NO. I have heard of at least one guy who didn't do too well on the A300 sim. SAS felt it was lack of experience and told him to re-apply after gaining some jet hours.

BTW, SAS is not the only airline with strict interview procedures. The same goes for BA, KLM, Lufthansa and most other major European airlines.

[TowerDog]

B-744:

Who do ya fly 744s for? (If ya do?)

I know Cargolux borrows SAS's shrinks for their own interviews, never heard much talk about the other European carriers having similar tests.

I interviewed with American Airlines last fall and had to take a bunch of tests on a computer that sounds similar to what SAS give their candidates: Move 2 pins (One for left and one for rignt hand) forward and back while ya concentrate on something else, such as adding numbers and solving other problems.

Also bunch of other situations presented, spatial orientation, IQ mumbo jumbo, etc.
For each problem ya have 3 minuttes.
Not very pleasant, but I must have passed.

In addition there was a 200 question written test about your personality. Each question had 5 choices.
Rumor from other guys was to never answer 1 or 5. (Yes, I did love my mother. No, I don't want to live on a deserted island with no people around.)

(Actually I would love to: Just fish, sail, dive and make love to my harem... :) )

A sim check in an old B-707.
Enough medical testing and blood samples for an astrounaut selection.

(All of the above should be un-neccesary if a guy has a bunch of time, say lots of international heavy time. Lots of PIC time.
Never had a problem, accident, incident, violation. Clean man, clean...Thats me.)

Other US companies I have worked for had different tests. It all depends how bad they need ya.
United Airlines for instance, quit giving applicants a sim ride.
Just a talk, a medical and a heavy back ground check.
(UA turned me down, did not talk well enough that day and a couple of the questions caught me off-balance: Come back in a year.)

Yes, whoever said: Ya win some, ya lose some was indeed right.




------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[Temp Hi]

Extremely interesting, Towerdog - but what´s your point http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

Your comment on SK safety marks a record low on this forum...

[TowerDog]

Hi temp:

If ya missed the connection between testing and screening pilot candidates and flying safety, uh, try to read it again without moving your lips.

Good luck.... :)

------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[B-744]

Tower Dog,

Yeah, I do - for Cathay.

I am not saying that the tests in the other major airlines are exactly the same as SAS but in principle they are. Ever heard of the group excercise in BA?

Regarding SAS' safety record, I saw a list the other day of incidents (or maybe it was fatalities) per million sectors and SAS was number two in the world! Number one was Southwest, I think.

Your comment about having a lot of hours and then interviews and tests shouldn't be necessary doesn't hold. 5 years ago CX made their cargo department a separate unit and started recruiting cheap captains and F/Os. The salaries were so low that they took anyone they could get hold of without the same screening as the mainline guys. Guess what, the first year they kicked out half because they weren't up to standards. They all had 1000s of hours. A friend of mine (local guy with 250 hours) was in the sim with one guy who used to fly MD80s in the US. Despite his lack of experience, my buddy had to run the show every time.
I know that experience counts for a lot but not everything. Being switched on helps a lot too.

BTW Towerdog, er du lige begyndt hos AA på 727? Kender du min gamle kammerat, Atif? Han er fransk og sort som natten. Han er også på 727 i Miami.

PS: Why are we speaking English? I thought this was a scandinavian forum!

[TowerDog]

Well, I guess we are speaking English for the benefit of the rest of the Nordic countries. (Iceland and Finland)

Roger on the cheap crews in Cathay.
Although it sure sounds like an extreme example that yer 250 hour bud was running the sim as the MD 80 guy was behind.
On the other hand, one gets what one pays for... :)

As for flying safety and screening:
Well, Southwest has an impressive safety record considering the number of sectors they
fly. To qualify for a pilots job there ya just tell a few stories about your past and how ya helped little old ladies across the street...No advanced aptitude testing and such. And ya also need to hold a B-737 capts type-rating. And 1000 hours pic on turbine equipment.

As for SAS's accident record, glad to hear they are up around the top. Especially considering the winter weather up and down the Norwegain coast.

As far as I remember, the only 2 airlines in the world that never had an accident was Quantas and Southwest. That changed a year or 2 ago when both companies ran of the runway.
It is just a matter of time, it will happen to everybody as long as there is the human element involved.

No, don't know yer French buddy over at AA.

As for IQ testing and such in the US.
The actual IQ tests were out-lawed in 1978 so nobody would be discriminated against if they were not, uh, the brightest.

Instead of IQ tests, the various corporations
started asking for college degrees, as it was known that college graduates usually had a higher IQ and made better and more productive employees.

Now it seems that the official word on the kind of aptitude/IQ tests companies like AA gives the applicants is that it can see the future and predict if you will have a mental disease later in life. (Stroke or seizure I guess.)
Perhaps a way to circumwent the law??

So how is life in Cathay? The new airport working out okay?




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Men, this is no drill...

[B-744]

Without wanting to discredit the Southwest guys, but they do mostly fly around the south-western part of the US which, as you indicate yourself, is not Northern Norway. I have no doubt, though, that the Southwest guys are great but I guess perhaps the company also has a good check & training machine which means a lot, too.
Cathay would have been way up on the list, too, but was only 23rd, if it wasn't for a bomb which exploded onboard in the 60's.

Mht. cx så må jeg hellere skrive på dansk af frygt for at blive hevet ind på kontoret mandag morgen. Man kan jo læse det meste på fragrant harbour forum og det er jo stort set kun negativt. Der er rigtig mange ting som jeg ikke er enig med firmaet i. De prøver hele tiden små tricks for går den så går den. Vores pilotforening er heldigvis blevet stærkere men desværre har vi ikke helt samme arbejdslovgivning som i skandinavien eller US. De sidste mange år har de kun snakket om industry standard og market forces hver gang de skulle have os til noget. Således fik de vores A-skala piloter til at gå 20-30% ned i løn for to år siden. Nu har I så i USA fået kæmpe lønstigninger og derfor vil vi naturligvis også have noget mere, men firmaet vil selvfølgelig ikke snakke "industry standard" mere. Vores styrmandsløn ligger egentlig meget tæt på USA men som kaptajn er cx noget lavere, ligesom vores pension heller ikke er ligeså god.
Det skal dog siges at det hele ikke er noget lort. Jeg takkede nej til SAS for et par år siden og har trods alt ikke fortrudt. Lønnen kommer stadig hver måned, skatten er et "symbolsk" beløb på 15%, vi flyver gode fly med gode og flinke kollegaer som alle er dygtige piloter og efter 8-10 år er man kaptajn på en wide-body. :)
Cx er et godt firma at begynde i hvis man er under 30, ugift og ikke har noget imod at bo i HK, fordi man således kan spare en masse op som kan kompensere for den knapt så gode pension. Jeg var 26 da jeg sagde nej til SAS, havde jeg været over 30 og med familie var der nok ikke nogen tvivl om at jeg havde fløjet MD80 nu. :)


[This message has been edited by B-744 (edited 26 April 2001).]

[TowerDog]

Roger on CX.

Joda, det er nok sikkert at CX er et bra selskap. Jeg har fløyet som pax der mange ganger og hadde lite å klage på... :)

Har ikke søkt der selv, trodde kanskje det var vanskelig med arbeidstilattels hvis man ikke var fra et av "Commonwealth" landene?

har hørt at man må gå gjennom et coctail selskap med sjefene som endel av screening processen. Stemmer det??

Kjenner dog noen som dro over ifjor. Var det da på den "B" lønnskalaen du nevnte? Eller
ble det slutt på den?

Kjente du den CX skipperen som fikk sparken etter at kastet peanøtter på sjefen..?.. :)

Ah, må legge på nå, har fridager og skal på seiltur. Livet er ikke værst her i USA, spesielt i Florida.

Fly safe.



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Men, this is no drill...

[Mr moto]

I don't think the point is actually about the tests themselves. Its the 'No means Never' principle. That candidates once rejected may not reapply.
IQ's remain fairly constant and all the practice you can do won't make much difference to this part of the procedure but the rest is totally flexible.
I don't know any other company which has the stated policy of not accepting reapplications.
BA do-See Wannabees.

[B-744]

Mr. Moto,
As you said, peoples intelligence probably doesn't change much and I am sure that for most, the same goes for personality. Therefore, isn't it fair enough that they don't give a second chance on the psychology tests? If someone didn't pass the first time, what is the chance that he/she will make it second time around?

Towerdog,
It is true that CX used to only hire pilots from Commonwealth countries, but that changed 5 years ago when they started taking Americans and continental Europeans.
Regarding pay scales, then everyone hired before 04/93 are on A-scale, everyone after are on B-scale. I think the difference is 25-30%, but we are working on A-scale for everybody. The guys flying the freighter are on about half the salary of B-scale, but as it is now they get a number on the CX seniority list and can move over to the passenger fleet after 3 years.

[AirbornRanger]

Now this is an interesting topic....SAS Bashing!!

I myself has been spent most of my life in Sweden, and I both like and dislike the country for many reasons.....Taxes being one of the negative aspects....
Well now to SAS, I realy do not care much about it as I don´t work there myself, but I must reflect on some facts.

Swedes are generally well balanced people who normally thinks before they speek....exeptions do exist.
In the old days forigners, -be it Europeans or anything else than Scandinavians, could have only dreamed of ever getting a job with SAS....no so long ago though.....say 15 years ago. I think, and hope all that has changed now, and so has those in the selection team one would hope.

I myself was axed in the selection some 15 years ago, and how differcult that may have been at the time, I´m now sure it was for the best. At the time I was rather young and realy didnt care much about company-politics....I just wanted to fly! Now however I realise that I would not have been happy there for many reasons....mostly social.

Thanks to this "failure" I now work for one of the largest most respected European airlines with a much faster career development than I could ever have had with SAS. But most importantly: I´m very happy here, with everything from salary to social climate.

I must conclude that the Swedes who where scrambling me in that selection did their job well....they did not waste mine nor SAS time.
I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with me or SAS, we where just not made for eachother....and the selection team had the professionalism to pick it up. However it was for me to figure out what the reason was, as SAS has the somewhat non professional idea of not letting you now why you have been rejected.

I wish to let everyone know that as professional as they may be at SAS this is a point where they simply fail, as they will never tell you that maybe things in there organisation are not good enough for you. This leaves many to believe the failure is yours as a candidate....that is simply not so. How good SAS may be I know many many pilots who work for larger and "better" airlines than SAS, even though they where once rejected at SAS.

It is simply for everyone to belive in themselfs and realise that SAS is simply one Airline of all in the world, with conditions far below many other potential future employers.....also don´t forget that SAS is mainly a commuter airline to the more global European carriers.

Good Luck to all of you be it at SAS or anywhere else.

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Born to fly, taxed out of the sky.....