V Force fatalities

[Tankertrashnav]

With the upcoming V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/index.html) on 28th/29th April there is a surge in interest in the history of these aircraft. I have been asked if there is any way to ascertain the total number of lives lost over the history of the three V bombers, including their subsequent reconnaissance and tanker versions. Asking around, lots of people can come up with well-known accidents, but is there an easily accessible source which lists all the major accidents involving fatalities?

Unfortunately, because of the lack of ejector seats for the rear crew a high proportion of accidents did involve fatalities, but so far I can only guess at the total lives lost. Can anyone help?

Mods please feel free to move this to Aviation History and Nostalgia if you think it belongs there

[Pontius Navigator]

Jaclson, Avro Vulcan, 1984, in his appendix lists the disposal details for the Vulcan. There is no summary, you would need to trawl through it viz:

VX770 - crew killed (no number)
XA891 - crew unhurt
XA897 - 3 crew plus 1 pax killed
XA908 - crew killed (no number)
XA909 - crew unhurt
XH477 - crew killed
XH497 - rear crew bailed out - nose u/c down but nosewheel fell off
XH535 - 4 rear crew killed
XH536 - 5 killed
XJ781 - crew unhurt
XL390 - crew killed (IIRC plotter was not on board)
XM576 - crew unhurt
XM600 - one hurt rest unhurt
XM601 - crew killed
XM604 - 4 killed
XM610 - 2 hurt rest unhurt
XM645 - 5 killed pilots survived

[Hipper]

For Valiants, Morgan's 'Vickers Valiant' has a six page summary of the histories of all the aircraft and these mention fatalities.

For Victors, Roger Brooks 'The Handley Page Victor' has a chapter in Vol 2 on accidents which mentions deaths. This is around 50 pages though.

In 'Vulcan Test Pilot' by Tony Blackman, he devotes a chapter to Vulcan accidents and mentions fatalities.

[Fareastdriver]

The subject of rear crew ejector seats came up about four years ago. I posted a comment then that no one in particular disagreed with so I will post it again before the arguments start about how many died because they were not provided.

When the V bombers were first designed rear crew escape by ejector seats was not even considered. The Victor was conceived with a jettisonable cockpit, the Vulcan with a seat for the one pilot, the Sperrin with one seat between the two pilots and the Valiant, the last of the design phases, a seat for each pilot.

The designs for the V bombers were the first time that the British aircraft industry had to design military aircraft for prolonged operation above 30,000 ft and the Comet disasters proved how much they knew about it. When the V force cockpits were stressed to 8.5 lbs/in pressure differential that was almost a step into the unknown. It follows that any alteration like cutting extra exit holes for the rear crew was structurally impossible. The only way you could do it was to have a small hole with enough room for ONE seat to exit. This was done with a Valiant as a one off in the early sixties. This proved it was possible to eject from the cabin of a Valiant though I believe the primary research was to study the effects of rear facing ejection.

To have any chance at all you would have to sequence the ejection. You could not eject simultaneously as the seats would all meet at a point above the cockpit. All those who fly with a rocket seat attached to their backsides would think that is easy. Not with a Mark 3A Ejector seat that was necessary to clear the tail of a V bomber. That had a three cartridge, eight foot telescopic gun that ensured the occupant left the end at 80 ft/sec. With a seat like that you have to be fully prepared to eject. Should you not be fully prepared you would be crippled, if unprepared, fatally crippled.

Three scenarios were considered.

Inclined ejector guns for the outer crew members. This would involve them accelerating from Zero to 80ft/sec eight feet vertically and three feet laterally. The sideways forces would be more than sufficient to break their necks.

Tilted Ejector seats. This would require the seat to flop from the vertical to about 25 degrees to aim at the hole in the roof. Put you hand against a convenient object, tilt you seat to twenty-five degrees laterally and consider whether you are in a suitable body configuration to be punched out through the ceiling at 80 ft/sec. No, I thought not.

Shuffle Ejection. The centre occupant would eject and then one of the others would move his seat to the centre position, eject and so on. What do you do with the first ejectee’s gun which is still going to be in the way? What happens if the primary ejectee is killed or wounded? It’s a combat aircraft, remember.

I never knew of a rear crew member who complained about it in a serious way. The history of multiple abandonment of V aircraft suggest that in the time available in most cases only one or two would have survived, ejection seats or not.

It never worried me. As a co-pilot I was required to eject first so as to tell the Board of Inquiry what went wrong.

[Green Flash]

I presume, given the nature of the V Force, that there were no foriegn exchange postings? At a pinch, I could imagine there might have been someone from SAC and if so did anyone go to Barksdale/Minot/wherever for some BUF action? Or maybe an ANZAC?

[Yellow Sun]

there were no foriegn exchange postings?

There was a USAF Major (pilot) as CGI on the Vulcan OCU in the late 60s - early 70s, but whether the post was continuous and when it ceased I do not know.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

YS, you may be correct however as with BCBS and Group, they were non-operational ie the Chief GROUND Instructor. When I was at Finningley it was Polly Pollington who volunteered for posts that others did not want but which necessitated commissioning or promotion. It stood him well, sgt pilot to Vulcan sqn cdr.

[John Farley]

You want to get a copy of Category Five by Colin Cummings, Nimbus Pulishing ISBN 978-0-9526619-7-9 as it lists all RAF losses 1954-2009 with names of crew
and with a good index by aircraft type.

[Lordflasheart]

TTN -

The Wolverhampton Aviation Group's excellent website includes a very comprehensive database of UK Military Aircraft Losses separately for each year between 1952 and 2011 – chronologically with brief details of each prang, which in general seems to include the number of fatalities - but without names.

UK Military Aircraft Losses (http://www.ukserials.com/losses_index.htm)

This is supported by a shy table named "Drone losses and x-ref by type and serial" which lists losses for each type - by serial and date. One would have to manually take the type/date/serial back to the annual list for the further details provided.

For starters - I added up the losses as -
Valiant - Ten, between May 56 and June 64.
Vulcan - Twenty-two, between Oct 56 and Nov 81
Victor – Seventeen, between Aug 59 and March 93.

HTH. LFH

[Pontius Navigator]

M'lud, that is less than half the number on the Vulcan that I listed.

[Trim Stab]

You could try looking through the "losses" page of the following website:

UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/)

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the help so far chaps, looks like I'm in for a bit of cross-checking and adding up.

Those figures surprise me, Lord Flasheart, that's a lot of aircraft.

P-N - maybe some confusion maybe? I'm assuming L-F's figures refer to aircraft losses, not crew casualties.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, could be though I listed 17 which were crashes as opposed to one's like the runway fire at Scampton or the undercarriage collapse at Finningley. I considered these to be in a different category to the crash landing of XJ781 in Iran.

I omitted XH561 that damaged its undercarriage at Finingley as I did not know if that was an actual crash. There was one, I can't remember more details that did an unintentional wheels up landing. The aircraft went into ground effect and suffered hardly any damage.

There was another, XM600, we flew her to St Athan for the first Major at St Athan. On take-off on return her undercarriage door shut then the main wheel retracted with predictable consequences. As the aircraft landed at Cottesmore it was declared a Bomber Command accident rather than a Maintenance Command one.

[Lordflasheart]

Oooooh yes - it was airframe losses from Her Maj's slop-chit (light-blue inventory) pov, that I was quoting. Fortunately not all of them involved fatalities. Sorry not to have made that clear. I didn't have much time for my post as I was trying to submit my tax return in the real world. As TTN observes, there's a lot of adding up to do. I think the final total will be another long depressing list, especially if names can be added. It all seemed quite fun at the time - didn't it ? Perhaps the final conclusions can be posted here please, as a respectful reminder ? LFH

[sisemen]

I've asked this before in these august pages - but does anyone have a copy of the BOI or pics of the Finningley wheels up on the pan? I was a witness to that one and, as far as I remember, it was a faulty 28vDC microswitch that was the cause.

[Barksdale Boy]

In my Vulcan time (67-73 and 78-82) there were no exchange postings on the squadrons. There were, however, plenty of people who were Australians or New Zealanders, but all were members of the Royal Air Force, most of them naturalised Brits.

There was during my time always a USAF major as Chief Ground Instructor on 230 OCU. In 1967 it was Sam McClure, in 1970 Bill Heckendorm, in 1978 a major Goranewsky and, in 1979 to the end, the amazing John Harrington, with whom and with Bill Dart I once shared a snow hole for a night on Cairngorm.

I know that PN has in the past alluded to a USAF exchange officer at BCBS, but I do not recall that.

[spectre150]

Sisemen

My father was one of the navs in the Vulcan that suffered the u/c collapse at Finningley and he has a couple of good photographs taken, presumably by an official photographer, shortly after it happened. Unfortunately I live abroad and do not have access to them but I could ask him to dig them out for me on my next trip home. I cant help with the BOI I am afraid.

[November4]

According to Colin Cummings in his book Category Five, there were 10 Valiants, 16 Victors and 20 Vulcans lost:

Valiant

WP222 29/07/1955
Sqn Ldr RE Chalk, Flt Lt A Allen, Fg Off T Corkin, Plt Off A Lyons

WP202 11/05/1956
Sqn Ldr K Orman, Flt Lt E Evans, Mr A Knight (Co ejected and survived)

WZ398 13/09/1957
Fire on ground

XD869 11/09/1959
Flt Lt T Watkins, Fg Off P Wormall, Flt Lt D Howard, Flt Lt M Hyslop, Fg Off C Candy, CT R Sewell

Valiant XD864 12/08/1960
Flt Lt B Wickham, Flt Lt W Howard, Flt Lt H Bullen, Flt Lt A Ireson, Sgt R Johnson

WP200 14/03/1961
Take off abandoned and ran through a metal fence AEO and Nav seriously injured.

WZ399 03/11/1961
Take off abandoned and overshot airfield onto a railway track. Crew survived.

WZ363 06/05/1964
Flt Lt F Welles. Flt LT G Mills, Flt Lt J Stringer, Flt Lt L Hawkins, Sgt R Noble

WZ396 23/05/1964
Landed on foam carpet when undercarriage stuck. No casualties reported.

WP217 06/08/1964
Lower part of rear spar fractured - not repaired

Victor

WB771 14/07/1954
Sqn Ldr Ecclestone DFC, Mr I Bennett, Mr B Heithersay, Mr A Cook

XH668 20/08/1959
Sqn Ldr R Morgan, Sqn Ldr G Stockman, Flt Lt L Williams, Flt Lt R Hannaford, Mr R Williams

XH617 19/07/1960
Fg Off M Wilkes, Flt Lt J Wilding, Flt Lt R Bristow (Pilot Flt Lt J Mudford, AEO Fg Off G Stewart survived)

XL159 23/03/1962
Mr M Evans, Mr P Elwood (Pilots Mr P Murphy and Mr J Tank ejected, AEO FLt Lt J Waterton baled out) 2 Civilians on the ground killed Mrs A Gibson, Miss C Gibson

XH613 14/06/1962
Wg Cdr J Matthews, Fg Off W Lowther, Flt Lt G Spencer, Flt Lt B Stubbs, Flt Lt Ansted all abandoned aircraft and survived

XA929 16/06/1962
Flt Lt G Goatham, Flt Lt D Brown, Flt Lt J Gray, Fg Off A Mitchell, Fg Off A Pace, MTech D Smith (Fg Off Brown ejected but killed as outside of design limits for the seat)

XA934 02/10/1962
Aircraft abandoned but Flt Lt N Cooke, Plt Off J Cottridge, Fg Off D Haynes killed (Co Flt Lt E Gwinnel survived)

XM714 20/03/1963
Flt Lt A Galbraith, Flt Lt E Vernon, Flt Lt J churchill, Fg Off T Sandford, MNav A Stringer (Co ejected)

XM716 29/06/1966
Sqn Ldr J Holland, Fg Off H walsh, Flt Lt R Norman, Flt Lt K Smith

XH646 19/08/1968
Sqn Ldr M Doyle, Flt Lt W Galliene, Flt Lt K Peacock, Flt Lt R Morton

XL230 10/05/1973
Flt Lt S Stevenson, Flt Lt J Philips, Flt Lt K Quinney, Sqn Ldr J Musson, Flt Lt R Swain, Flt Lt J Gibbs

XH618 25/03/1975
Flt Lt D Crowther, Flt P Slatter, Fg Off T Evans, Fg Off J Price (PilotFlt Lt K Handscomb ejected)

XL513 28/09/1976
Crashed into overshoot after birdstrike on take off

XL232 15/10/1982
Engine explosion on take off. No injuries

XL191 19/06/1986
Crashed into undershoot during approach - "breakdown in crew cooperation"

XH671 15/03/1993
Cabin door seals damaged in pressure test - not repaired

Any errors are down to my poor typing skills

[November4]

Vulcan

XA897 01/10/1956
Sqn Ldr J Stroud, Sqn Ldr Eames AFC, Sqn Ldr A Gamble, Mr F Basset (ACM Sir H Broadhurst and Sqn Ldt D Howard survived)

VX770 20/09/1958
Mr K Sturt, Mr R Ford, Mr W Howkins, Flt Lt R Parrott

XA908 24/10/1958
Flt Lt J Willoughby-Moore, Flt Lt B Peacock, Sqn Ldr H Scull, Flt Lt J Watson, Fg Off A Baker, CT E Evison

XA904 01/03/1961
Landed on grass and undercarriage collapsed

XH477 12/06/1963
Flt Lt D Blackmore. Fg D Faulke, Flt Lt Roper, Flt Lt J Ross, Flt Lt J Chapman

XH535 11/05/1964
Flt Lt J Dingly, Flt Lt F Young, Flt Lt Chilton, MSig Christian AFM (Pilots ejected and survived Co Flt Lt R Beeson)

XA909 16/07/1964
Rear crew abandoned at 3000 feet then pilots ejected.

XM601 07/10/1964
Wg Cdr K Baker (OC 12 Sqn) Fg Off P Busfield, Flt Lt C Burkard, Flt Lt G BinghamFg Off A Jones

XM576 25/05/1965
Loss of control on landing, minor injuries including an NCO on the ground.

XH536 11/02/1966
Flt Lt J MacDonald, Fg Off G Sutcliffe, Flt Lt B Waring, Flt Lt R Clare, Flt Lt G Fuller

XH556 18/04/1966
Undercarriage collapsed

XL385 06/04/1967
Engine fire - no casualties

XM604 30/01/1968
Flt Lt A Bennett, Flt Lt S Sumpter, Flt Lt B Goodman, Fg Off M Whelan (Pilots ejected believing rear crew to be out Flt Lt P Tait, Fg Off M Gillette)

XM610 08/01/1971
Caught fire in the air - crew abandoned and survived, Pilot FLt Lt G Alcock awarded AFC

XL384 12/08/1971
Heavy landing

XJ781 23/04/1973
Undercarriage failed to lower, belly landing

XM645 14/10/1975
Sqn Ldr D Beeden, Flt Lt E Lambert, Flt Lt G Pulman, CT T Barrow, Sgt J Atkins. Mrs V Zammit killed by falling wreckage. Pilots ejected Flt Lt G Alcock AFC (see XH646), Flt Lt E Alexander

XM600 17/01/1977
Abandoned following serious engine fire - Pilots Flt Lt R Aspinall, Flt A Ryder and 3 rear crew escaped safely

XL390 11/08/1978
Flt Lt C Edwards, Flt Lt S Farlow, Flt J Hamilton, Flt Lt N Thomas

XL361 13/11/1981
Damaged beyond repair


Any errors are down to my poor typing skills

[Tankertrashnav]

November 4 - Thank you much for that - that must have taken quite a while. No criticism of your typnig skills either ;)

We intend putting the list on the V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/index.html) website as a tribute to those who wont be there on the day so everyone's help is much appreciated. Also if anyone is aware of any that have slipped through the normal sources I would appreciate it if you would let me know.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have added notes to November 4's Vulcan list and also two more aircraft. XH497 didn't crash on its final landing but the rear crew bailed out after the first attempt and XA891 was an A&AEE aircraft so not listed as an RAF loss.

Vulcan

XA897 01/10/1956
Sqn Ldr J Stroud, Sqn Ldr Eames AFC, Sqn Ldr A Gamble, Mr F Basset (ACM Sir H Broadhurst and Sqn Ldt D Howard survived)
Heathrow

*XH497 03/07/1958 - rear crew bailed out - nose u/c down but nosewheel fell off - rear crew (nav) killed, see Goudie post below. 617 Sqn

*XA891 24/07/1959 A&AEE engine installation development crashed in Yorkshire crew unhurt

VX770 20/09/1958
Mr K Sturt, Mr R Ford, Mr W Howkins, Flt Lt R Parrott
Syerston high speed run

XA908 24/10/1958
Flt Lt J Willoughby-Moore, Flt Lt B Peacock, Sqn Ldr H Scull, Flt Lt J Watson, Fg Off A Baker, CT E Evison
Detroit - electrical failure - cascade generator failure 83 sqn

XA904 01/03/1961
Landed on grass and undercarriage collapsed
Waddington 44 sqn

XH477 12/06/1963
Flt Lt D Blackmore. Fg D Faulke, Flt Lt Roper, Flt Lt J Ross, Flt Lt J Chapman
Hills of St Coln (as titled in the Bomber Command FS Magazine) - they grazed the mist-shrouded saddle between two peaks 50 Sqn

XH535 11/05/1964
Flt Lt J Dingly, Flt Lt F Young, Flt Lt Chilton, MSig Christian AFM (Pilots ejected and survived Co Flt Lt R Beeson)
A&AEE Andover - super stall from FL400 IIRC

XA909 16/07/1964
Rear crew abandoned at 3000 feet then pilots ejected.
Five out over Valley (as titled in the Bomber Command FS Magazine) Over Wales after engine explosion 101 Sqn

XM601 07/10/1964
Wg Cdr K Baker (OC IX Sqn) Fg Off P Busfield, Flt Lt C Burkard, Flt Lt G Bingham, Fg Off A Jones
Coningsby on asymmetric overshot and aircraft span in - lack of rudder authority IX Sqn

XM576 25/05/1965
Loss of control on landing, minor injuries including an NCO on the ground.
Scampton 83 Sqn

XH536 11/02/1966
Flt Lt J MacDonald, Fg Off G Sutcliffe, Flt Lt B Waring, Flt Lt R Clare, Flt Lt G Fuller
Grazed high ground on low level in Wales. IX Sqn

XH556 18/04/1966
Undercarriage collapsed
Finningley 230 OCU

XL385 06/04/1967
Engine fire - no casualties
Scampton on take-off

XM604 30/01/1968
Flt Lt A Bennett, Flt Lt S Sumpter, Flt Lt B Goodman, Fg Off M Whelan (Pilots ejected believing rear crew to be out Flt Lt P Tait, Fg Off M Gillette)
I believe the captain knew the rear crew were still onboard and ejected technically too late. His chute caught on power cables and he survived. He had been advised to burn off fuel to normal max landing weight whereas he could have landed immediately. IX Sqn

XM610 08/01/1971
Caught fire in the air - crew abandoned and survived, Pilot FLt Lt G Alcock awarded AFC
Engine exploded over Northumberland 44 Sqn

XL384 12/08/1971
Heavy landing
Scampton 230 OCU

XJ781 23/05/1973
Undercarriage failed to lower, belly landing
Shiraz, port undercarriage, crew plus Iranian observer evacuated IX Sqn

XM645 14/10/1975
Sqn Ldr D Beeden, Flt Lt E Lambert, Flt Lt G Pulman, CT T Barrow, Sgt J Atkins. Mrs V Zammit killed by falling wreckage. Pilots ejected Flt Lt G Alcock AFC (see XH646), Flt Lt E Alexander
Malta IX Sqn

XM600 17/01/1977
Abandoned following serious engine fire - Pilots Flt Lt R Aspinall, Flt A Ryder and 3 rear crew escaped safely
Near Coningsby Giant Voice

XL390 11/08/1978
Flt Lt C Edwards, Flt Lt S Farlow, Flt J Hamilton, Flt Lt N Thomas
Glenview NAS display practice 617 Sqn

XL361 13/11/1981
Damaged beyond repair
Goose Bay, hangar floor collapsed as aircraft being towed out 35 Sqn

[Brian 48nav]

Excuse me guys butting in on this thread.

When I was at LHR as an ATCO we had a Thames Radar controller who was an exCanberra nav in Cyprus and then Vulcans. He took his 12 yr option about 1972. He shares a name with a famous dambuster.
Allegedly he had been thinking about joining the USAF, and while on a Lone Ranger which stopped at Guam, blagged his way on to a BUFF which did a raid on North Vietnam. All allegedly of course!

My Flt Cdr at S Cerney, (Dec65-Apr66), one Flt Lt Mike Smith, I believe was the first skipper to get the rear crew out of a Vulcan. Near Anglesey IIRC.

I remember Simon Farlow as a copilot on an Argosy Course in '67.Later killed in '78 in a VUlcan.

When I was at Nav School I think one of the students on a course ahead of me, 82 or 83?, was the son of the Victor captain killed at Cottesmore in '66.

[Pontius Navigator]

Brian, XA909 above would have been Mike Smith's aircraft and as you say the first clean bailout. There was an extraordinary amount of additional equipment and stores onboard. Rumour had that there was even a small two-door cabinet :}

Care to PM me with the name of the Canberra/Vulcan nav. I think he was also the relief nav rad on our op deployment to Gan when one of the nav rads broke both wrists. We were gobsmacked when he arrived with one arm in a sling. I think he then did a tour at Waddo as wpns trg officer. he had also been a nav on 85 Sqn but didn't get any flying that tour.

[Whopity]

Having lived near Wittering when the first V Bombers arrived, I had been aware of a number of accidents in the early days but did not realise the list was so extensive. A colleague of my father's who lived at Barnack just 2 miles from the end of the runway, had two V bombers crash very close to his house. XM714 the second of these aircraft was carrying a jump seat passenger, M Nav Stringer whose son was in my class at school at the time. I also recall Mike Smith at South Cerney and some years later my AEO's twin brother Pete Slatter perished in XH618. Two of my initial instructors also died in the XM645 and XL230 accidents. In terms of proportions I wonder how The V-force figures compare with the Star Fighter that was so maligned.

[814man]

Slight thread drift!
I recall an incident when I was but a young SAC acting Cpl (unpaid unloved etc) doing my time on the SSA at Waddington when a Vulcan ran off the end of the runway near to the A15. I recall from my viewpoint on top of a D Building seeing fire and smoke from the undercarriage and the crew made a hasty exit running smartly away from aircraft as fire crew arrived quickly to put out flames. I seem to recall that the aircraft ended up quite close to the boundary fence and caused a few second glances from passing motorists on the A15. I also seem to think it took a few days to move it. I’m sure there must be some photos somewhere.
This must have happened between late 79 and Feb 82 but I would guess late summer 81.
An added factor was that the incident occurred in the middle of the major annual security exercise, which may explain the very quick arrival of the fire crews as I think they, and most of the station resources, were massing on Bravo dispersal to come and rescue us in the SSA!
I don’t know if this happened at the end of a landing or at an aborted take off but sure someone will.
Just note that some of my memories of the above may have been adversely affected by levels of alcohol intake during subsequent 10 years in RAFG!

[HTB]

814

It may have been an enthusiastic co-pilot carrying out post-maintenance taxy runs - if memory serves, he got a bit fast on a couple of runs and warmed up the brakes to the point where their effectiveness was much reduced. If it is that incident, I think he also used the callsign "Roadrunner", but this may just be apocryphal embellishment.

Mister B

[goudie]

*XH497 03/07/1958


I, along with others, was standing outside the 'gin palace' when XH497 made a perfect landing, amid a shower of sparks from the nose oleo. The relief we all felt when it stopped safely, with the pilots making a sharp exit, was tempered by sadness, when we heard that the nav. had been killed.

[BEagle]

814man / HTB - it was indeed the 'Roadrunner One' incident.

As recounted to me by a colleague, it seems that a Vulcan had been snagged for nosewheel vibration / shimmy and had been duly rectified. The squadron gingerbeers asked for a taxy check....

An enthusiastic ICC-qualified co-piglet readily agreed and collared an unsuspecting AEO to assist. They started up and requested taxy as 'Roadrunner 1'. There was no duty aircrew officer in the tower as no Vulcans were within 100 miles of Waddington at the time and the rules only required a DAO to be present if there were.

The tower cleared them for their taxy check and they subsequently roared off down RW21 at a goodly pace. "Nosewheel's fine", announce our hero. But then he decided to do a second check 'just to be certain'. So back they came along RW03...downwind...with already pretty warm brakes....:uhoh:

Again no snag with the nosewheel, but braking from a second fast taxy run was too much for the brakes, which duly caught fire. The Vulcan trundled off the end of the RW, stopping just short of the A15.

Whilst the genuine enthusiasm of the co-piglet probably exceeded his experience level, there were lots of other factors which led to the incident and he wasn't wholly to be blamed. There were no real rules in place for 'taxy checks', no requirements for any authorisation or supervision and the absence of a DAO (who would have queried the crew's intention) was the final link in the chain.

Even though such maintenance requirements were later regulated properly, a number of events still occurred during the next 2 decades when crews who were not trained for air tests carried out some 'partial air check' or other - but in many fleets the decision was ultimately taken that only qualified air test pilots would conduct any form of air test. Which seems sensible to me.

Incidentally, PN, the VX770 accident was at Syerston, not Swinderby.

[Pontius Navigator]

TY BEagle, duly amended.

May be you can remind me, and everyone else, about brake checks. After a hot landing a crew member was often sent outside to do a hot brakes and tyre check. One problem having stopped with hot brakes was their potential for cooking. If the aircraft was instead kept taxiing without further braking they could actually cool more quickly (correct?).

Anyway, went sent out to do the check we had to approach the wheels with caution as there was a potential for explosion. Now I cannot remember near 40 years later whether we were to approach fore-aft in case the wheel blew out or port/starboard in case the tyre blew out.

So, which was it?

[Wander00]

My ancient brain says "fore and aft", but then I might be incorrect!

[The Oberon]

Definitely fore and aft, as the wheel castings would explode sideways. In addition, if the brakes do ignite, only use a dry powder extinguisher to prevent rapid cooling and even more chance of explosion.

[Pontius Navigator]

TY, that was my first thought and of course the blue extinguisher which of course would not have been to hand in the scenario I was thinking of.

[Pontius Navigator]

In terms of proportions I wonder how The V-force figures compare with the Star Fighter that was so maligned.

There were 135 Vulcans built including the two development aircraft. Not all entered RAF Service for instance XM596 was taken off the production line and used as a fatigue test vehicle.

Of the 134 aircraft the list above has 22 aircraft or a loss over the 30 years of 16.41%.

There were 6 accidents with no survivors and 5 where some of the crew escaped. There were 11 where there were no fatalities. This is 4.4%, 3.7% and 8.2%. If we discount loss of test bed aircraft the losses were 4, 5 and 10.

Looking at the 4 where there were no survivors, one was a technical cause, 2 were CFIT and one was pilot error. Of the other 5 part fatals, 2 were landing accidents, 2 were catastrophic technical causes and the 3rd was also technical.

Looking at the F104 it looks at first glance that the Vulcan fared much better. There was one quirk in the stats however 3 successive crashes were on IX sqn with a total of 5 out of 19 crashes.

[sisemen]

What was the number of the Vulcan of 230 OCU that landed wheels up at Finningley in 64-65?

............

Spectre 150 - pm on its way to you.

[Fareastdriver]

I was in a ‘Brake Check Incident’ when I was seven.

My father was a pilot on 202 Squadron flying Met. Rec. Halifaxs out of Aldergrove. Our family lived in a converted wooden building between the officer’s mess and the perimeter track; now a car park. One day my father had to do a brake bedding on a Halifax so he took me along. (Shock Horror from today’s Elfin Safety)
I was sat in the nose blister and my father, solo, started it up and we taxied onto the easterly runway. Up and down that one and then up the southerly runway. The final run was in the northerly direction and we passed the intersection still with a fair amount of speed on. This was, apparently, where the brakes went AWOL. There is not a lot of tarmac left so my father gunned both starboard engines and it swung off the runway towards the 202 Sqn dispersal in the north western corner. The spectacles were empty though I remember the odd fire extinguisher passing underneath my seat. All, including the engines, came to a halt and then what happened my father and I never agreed on for the rest of his life.
He said that he led me out through the exit and down to the ground. I remember sitting there and then this chap in an asbestos suit saw me and pulled me out.
Nobody seemed particularly worried about me being there. I certainly did it a couple of times again.

[Wander00]

Siseman - Was that the one when Eric Fell was the QFI. If so he was our QFI on 360 when it formed. Great guy - learned a lot from him.

[ACW418]

The fatal accident on 7/10/64 was captained by Wg Cdr Baker who was OC 9 Sqn (not 12 as stated). He took our aircraft as his had gone u/s as I recall.

The wheels up landing at Finningley was captained by John Stannard as he was posted to a Squadron after it and was on the same nuclear weapons course at Wittering as me. As he had been my instructor on the OCU this was a bit awkward. The co-pilot was from 9 Sqn on his ICC.

ACW

[Pontius Navigator]

ACW, good spot, I missed that. Of course Bob Tanner was OC 12 at the time but I was out in the Far East with him then. The Nav Rad on the crew had been with me on 41 Nav course. Almost all that course had been back-coursed to 42 as too many u/t navs were getting through to 1 ANS and they needed to relieve the pressure. He got to Coningsby a month ahead of me - there but for the grace of God . . .

[Tankertrashnav]

Whopity - as usual a V Force thread is turning into a Vulcan thread
(;)) so perhaps I'd better answer your question fully and include percentages for Valiant and Victor losses. As far as I can tell the figures are 9.35% and 13.75% respectively. The Valiant of course only had a service life of around ten years.

Difficult to compare with the F104 - a case of apples and pears really. Do you include combat losses in Vietnam? Do you concentrate on the F104G operated by the Germans - an aircraft not really suited to the role of low level flying in Northern European weather conditions? Whichever way you look at it, though, I'm pretty sure the Starfighter had a much higher percentage of losses than any of the V 's.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, not intentional just I happen to have both the facts and the time :)

[November4]

The fatal accident on 7/10/64 was captained by Wg Cdr Baker who was OC 9 Sqn (not 12 as stated). He took our aircraft as his had gone u/s as I recall.

Just checked Catergory Five and it seems that the book has a mistake.

XM601 Vulcan B2 9 Sqn RAF Coningsby

The squadron commander who was not particularly experienced on the Vulcan having come from a Valiant unit, was carrying out a check on a co-pilot who was handling pilot for the majority of the sortie. The captain advised that the aircraft would make an asymmetric approach for a roller and all appeared normal until the aircraft crossed the threshold. Power was applied and the aircraft was seen to bank to starboard and turn sharply away from the runway and when it was about 300 yards up the runway and some 175 yards to the right of the runway centreline, the starboard wing tip struck the ground and the aircraft broke up and caught fire. The two pilots attempted ejection but were unsuccessful because the angle at which the seats left the aircraft but the three men in the rear had no opportunity to abandon the aircraft at the height involved. The cause of the crash was a loss of control during the overshoot but the captain failed to take control from the co-pilot, who was relatively inexperienced.

Wg Cdr Kenneth John Lewis Baker 39 Captain (OC 12 Sqn) as already stated this should read 9 Sqn and according to the Armed Forces Roll of Honour (http://www.veterans-uk.info/afm2/roll-of-honour.php?SerialNo=R6750) A/Wg Cdr
Fg Off Paul Elliot Busfiled 23 Co-Pilot
Flt Lt Charles Vernon Burkard 23 Nav(Radar)
Flt Lt Geoffrey Bingham 34 Nav (Plotter)
Fg Off Alan Hubert Jones21 AEO


Think I see where the confusion has arisen, apart from Wg Cdr Baker, all are listed as serving at RAF Cottesmore (Baker RAF Coningsby) and are buried in Coningsby Cemetery, there is no cemetery listed for Wg Cdr Baker. Was 12 Sqn based at Cottesmore at the time and it was assumed that he was OC that Sqn?

[Ramshornvortex]

PN - just a couple of queries on two of your dates....

I think XA891 was 24/7/59 and XJ781 was 23/5/73.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Coninsgby Wing moved in toto to Cottesmore around that time. I think initially it had been planned as a Bolthole (not a term at the time) but the planned changed to a permanent move around August.

We had planned to go to the Far East around 24 Sep but instead deployed on the 9th. The Station Commander deployed as the task force commander but returned to UK around the 13th or 14th as he had a pressing engagement - the Summer Ball and to move the Wing.

It is unlikely that the whole wing moved in the space of a few days and Wg Cdr Baker may well have been on the posted strength of Cottesmore but still flying from Coningsby.

an asymmetric approach for a roller and all appeared normal until the aircraft crossed the threshold. Power was applied and the aircraft was seen to bank to starboard and turn sharply away from the runway

The aircraft had the more powerful 301 engines and possibly had take-off power selected. Take-off power could deliver up to 104% static thrust. If the throttles for all engines were advanced together the live engines would produce maximum power around 30 seconds ahead (IIRC) the idling engines. The relatively small rudder did not have enough authority to overcome the asymetric forces. A similar instance had occurred when Ron Dick, a highly experienced pilot, was put in the same situation. He said he had never seen the horizon move across the windscreen so rapidly. His recovery which was counter-intuitive was to throttle back all 4 engines and then advance the power on all 4.

Ramshorn, you're right but they were actually November 4's original dates. Jackson also shows 781 at May not Apr. I was at Akrotiri in Apr and had left by the time 781 went in so it must be May. Now corrected.

[November4]

Cumming in Category 5 lists XJ781 as 23/4/73 but Halley in Broken Wings gives the date as 23/5/73.

Halley says that XA891 was 24/7/59.

[Pontius Navigator]

Do you concentrate on the F104G operated by the Germans - an aircraft not really suited to the role of low level flying in Northern European weather conditions?

Remember that all the Vs were also operated differently from the role for which they were first designed. Two Vulcan crashes occurred at low level. The Victor tankers OTOH were operated in a more benign manner.

Think of the Nimrod too, around 46 or so were ordered and at least 5 crashed or were Cat 5 - ove 10%.

[4mastacker]

Does XH669 count as a loss? IIRC it had to land at Waddington due to a major electrical problem. Due to the cost of repair and the approaching end of the Victor's service life, it was not considered cost-effective to carry out repairs and the aircraft was subsequently declared Cat-5 and scrapped in-situ.

Wasn't XH671 in the ground display line-up for the RAF 75 celebrations - and wasn't that after the mishap with the door seals?

[Tankertrashnav]

Quite so P-N. I never much relished the thought of stooging around at low level without an ejector seat, so was quite happy with my posting to tankers after Lindholme.

The Vulcan accident you describe bears a remarkable similarity to the loss of Victor SR2 XL 230 on 10 May 73. I could never understand the point of practising rollers after an assymetric approach and landing and was very pleased when they were banned soon after these incidents. Two crews lost needlessly IMOH.

[Ron Cake]

PN - The accident to XM 576 at Scampton in May 1965 was another example of a roller from an asymmetric approach causing unexpectedly severe yaw. In this case the port wing tip touched the ground, the a/c slewed to port, the port u/c collapsed and the a/c came to rest in the Air Traffic Control car park.
A number of cars were demolished and one (a Mini Minor) even went missing. It was later found crushed in the Stbd u/c bay.

November 4 - Your quote concerning the Coningsby accident contains a minor error that may be worth mentioning.

Flt Lt Vernon Burchard was the AEO not the Nav Rad

[Pontius Navigator]

Ron, there was another accident at Cottesmore with my skipper. We knew nothing of it until the following morning when we overheard the words "runway marker board" and "hit".

We interrogated the driver who 'fessed up. We were relieved to find that it was while he was flying as IRE with another crew. The copilot was doing a roller at night and had clipped a marker board with the port wing.

Now we know where the boards are sited, we know how high they are, and the impact was 10 feet in from the tip. figure how close that was to the ground!

I am pleased to say the copilot was employed elsewhere after that tour.

[OvertHawk]

PN - to go back to your question about approaching hot wheels - in my previous incarnation in AFRS we were taught to approach from a 45 deg offset in order to avoid both the fore/aft risk of the tyre exploding and the lateral risk of the hub flying off.

OH

[Pontius Navigator]

OH, was that approach arrived at by logic or hard learnt experience? Reflecting on some of the crashes which have occurred at air displays:

The Victor, the Vulcan, the Nimrod, the F4, that B52. I believe each was a one-off for that type but too many altogether.

[sisemen]

Siseman - Was that the one when Eric Fell was the QFI

Wander - the very man. BCDU was my first posting out of training and that aircraft was under manufacturer's repair in No 1 Hangar at Finningley and I was detailed to don a civilian mackintosh and penetrate the security - if I could. I was in the cockpit chatting to some contractors before I was sussed.

Later on Eric's daughter married my best mate. And they are still together and attended my 3rd wedding in Vegas in 2007.

[November4]

November 4 - Your quote concerning the Coningsby accident contains a minor error that may be worth mentioning.

Flt Lt Vernon Burchard was the AEO not the Nav Rad

Cummings in Category 5 definitely says that Burkard (as spelt by Cummings) was the Nav Radar. From various comments on this thread, it would appear that the book is not 100% accurate....

[Pontius Navigator]

Looking at this site UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/) I see 25 Victor 2were cancelled.

Part of the aerospace industry rationalisation and a slap on the wrist for Sir Fred.

[Old-Duffer]

November 4

I believe that the correct spelling and full name is Charles Vernon BURKARD.

Old Duffer

[Wensleydale]

Anyone know which squadrons were flying the aircraft involved in the crash of XJ781 in Iran in May 73 and the crash of XL 385 at Scampton in Apr 67? I have the Wings but not the individual Sqns.

Thanks....

W

[Pontius Navigator]

Iran was IX Sqn, look at my post above.

As Ron points out below, the aircraft at this time were allocated to wings. In the case of 781 it was Akrotiri Bomber Wing but as you asked, it was IX flying it.

Also, pedantically, 385 did not crash as it failed to take-off and didn't even hit the runway.

[Old-Duffer]

November 4,

I can confirm that Burkard was an AEO and Cummings is wrong. The Nav Radar was Jones.

I contacted Cummings today and gave him a jolly good slap - he has promised to take more care in future!

He does however plead that the RAF had about 9400 aircraft written off through accident and occasional enemy action since VE-Day and these included something like 6500 fatal casualties. All these have been covered in his series of books. The inevitable incorrect designation he suggests is regretable but probably inevitable.

O-D

[November4]

Thanks O-D

I appreciate that errors and omissions do occur. Maybe time for an addendum to be added or like Chorley's Bomber Command Losses which has a website (http://www.rafinfo.org.uk/BCWW2Losses/) with updates and corrections.

[Ron Cake]

Wensleydale:

XL 385 was part of Scampton 'Wing' and, as such, was not allocated to any particular Sqn. But at the time, the aircraft was in the hands of a 617 Sqn crew (Bill Taylor's, I think). So, if you want to associate the demise of 385 to a particular squadron, then it has to be 617.

There was an ATC cadet on board when this dramatic and potentially life threatening incident occured. He must have wondered if he was aspiring to the right profession

[RVBurkard]

I was always led to believe my father, Flt Lt Burkard, was the AEO.

[BikerMark]

Strange co-incidence.

I'm just re-reading a book entitled "Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling" by Don Boreham and the book contains a dedication thus:

"This book is dedicated to the memory of Vernon Burkard (Flight-Lieut. C. V. Burkard, RAF) 1935-1964. Devoted narrow gauger, scenic wizard and best of friends."

The dedication is in the 2nd edition of the book published 1978. 1st edition was published in 1962.

Mark

[Treble one]

Green Flash, just seen your post on page 1, and an acquaintence of mine, who ended up as a Vulcan Sqd CO (and a station Cdr later as well) in his later career, had an exchange tour on the B-52. In fact he ended up as an instructor on the type before returning to the V Force.

I only had a brief chance to talk to him about it however, but he clearly enjoyed his tour on the BUFF.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fg Off Alan Hubert Jones 21

Not sure if I mentioned this before but it has just occured to me

there but for the grace of God

We were both on 41 Nav Course at 2ANS. The success of the instructors at 2ANS meant that rather more students were being passed on to 1ANS than they were established to cope with. They also had to accept basic navs from Cranwell as well.

A drastic measure was taken to address the issue and the whole of 41 course was recoursed to 42 course with the exception of about two navs of whom Jones was one. Navs from earlier courses were also recoursed to slim the system and back fill 41 course.

I passed out on 42 course and followed Jones to the V-force just one month behind him and thence to Coningsby which was still building up its sqns.