new recruiting grounds for CX

[Peak Tram Driver]

I heard CX are recruiting in Pakistan....why not India, read below some good candidates over there.

NEW DELHI: Imagine a person found misfit to drive a small car being allowed to get behind the wheels of a big truck. If that sounds scary, hear this. The aviation safety regulator has found that some trainees who failed to become co-pilots or qualify as commanders on single-aisle Boeing 737 on Air India's budget arm AI Express were taken by the parent company to fulfil their dream on the widebody Boeing 777 that flies long-haul routes.

All the pilots so favoured were sent on deputation from AI to AI Express. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) made this startling discovery when it audited the low-cost carrier (LCC) last September. "The records revealed that (two) captains failed (in AI Express)... during Instructor evaluation of DGCA (and were) recommended 200 hours of flying before the next attempt. These two were taken for a direct command on the widebodied Boeing-777 aircraft," the report says.

There are more shockers. "A P-2 (co-pilot) who failed in two attempts has now been taken up as P-2 (co-pilot) on Boeing-777, subsequently to be trained as commander on that type." And this one's scarier: "A pilot had a history of problems during landings (in AI Express) which were not addressed properly in training... it subsequently (led to) an incident with six bounces in a landing. This captain has also been taken up for command on Boeing-777 (in AI)."

If you wonder how such favouritism that compromises safety was allowed, here's the answer. AI Express was set as an LCC in 2004 under a separate licence but has over the years become a training ground aspiring pilots. (Insiders allege senior AI employees have used AI Express to fast-track the career of their pilot children.)

[jetjockey696]

Fake pilot licence alert in India ... The Independent.. 23rd March 2011


India is checking the licences of all its airline pilots after at least four were found to be flying using fake documents.

Two pilots were arrested last week for using fake certificates to gain licences, including a pilot with national carrier Air India who falsified his qualifications.

The other two pilots were being investigated for irregularities in their licences.

The licences and other documents of all 4,000 pilots flying commercial aircraft in the country will be scrutinised, said Bharat Bhushan, director general of civil aviation.

A second pilot was arrested last week after damaging an aircraft while landing and a scrutiny of her papers showed she had used fake documents to get a licence, Mr Bhushan said.

"Fake licences are very few so there is no need to panic," he said.

Opposition MPs accused the government of failing to check corruption in granting licences and endangering the lives of thousands of travellers.


Civil Aviation Minister Vyalar Ravi told parliament last week that authorities had taken action against 57 pilots who reported for duty drunk over the past two years.

Ten were fired and some others had their licences suspended or were taken off the flying roster for short periods.

[cxlineguy]

The Pakistani pilots turned CX down. Conditions not good enough. CX managers had a meeting with a bunch of SOs (rostered meeting), asking what needed to be done to attract more applicants. Answer: Better package. Rocket Science!

[Captain Dart]

Also heard most of the RAF chappies who were to save the day are not coming. Also Emirates poaching higher-time iCadets from Adelaide.

Boeing now wondering how CX will crew the 777's on order.

'To your bonus', Richard, :D (with apologies to The Management)!

[bm330]

bunch of RAF guys actually came for second interview (party). Missed sched appointments by several hours and generally blew off the official part of the tour. Informal accounts put the party count at 9+. Guess you can do that when your BA job is already in your pocket and the CX package is ....... the party was good.

[SMOC]

A TT cadet chucked it in only a month after arriving in HK from Adelaide, he was still in ground school. Shows how crap the package is and how worthless a P2X rating is.

[F_one]

Also heard a Canadian Icadet told CX to stuff it after a few months. They insisted he pay back all training costs( just shy of 400K), or they will not submit the necessary papers to HKIRD for him to clear out of HKG. (more scaremongering)

Last I heard he considered buying full fare on a different carrier and just leaving....

[Iron Skillet]

Seems like a very unlikely rumour, but if so:

Exactly what authority and capability does the company have to deny travel rights/detain someone?

And exactly how do they think they can ignore HKG laws by refusing to supply the IRD with whatever documentation they must provide?

Is this the same company that is in deep doodoo way over their heads after all these years of pretending that individual taxation issues are the individual's responsibility and they don't have to do anything ever?

[F_one]

Exactly what authority and capability does the company have to deny travel rights/detain someone?

As I said, Typical scaremongering from the company. They are bound by IRD rules and regulations, but that won't stop them from trying to strong arm a new Icadet into giving them more money

[sirhcttarp]

While GMA claims to have recruited 200+ pilots last year, there has been no notable gain in pilot numbers in the last 3 months.

2509 pilots in Jan 12

2509 pilots in Oct 11

Total of 11 new SOs joined... Total of 3 new SOs resigned (or retired)...

Total of 8 FOs/CNs left/retired...

[cxorcist]

As NR likes to say, "Watch this space!"

The only thing that has saved the company from a massive crewing problem already is/was the downturn of the Asian and EU economies in 2011/12, particularly in the cargo market. The FOP management is very day-to-day. It is only a matter of time before they get caught with their pants down. No one gets lucky all the time.

[SloppyJoe]

They are in a lot of trouble. I know many guys that have been awarded 0 leave. I do not know anyone that has been awarded all their leave. Everyone I come across is intending to take their leave at some time this year as if the company will not give it to us there is another way to take it. Sick rate for 2012 will be through the roof, I can see flights being cancelled during school holidays. 2013, lots of guys will have 12 weeks of leave. The wheels are wobbling.

[broadband circuit]

Why are people working G days?

I know why, it's because of short-sighted greed.

Sure, you can make $10,000 by helping out (just wait until later in the month when they mess with your roster to take away that overtime).

Sure you can work a G day to ditch that unwanted split duty or RUH flight by helping out.

The truth is, you're only being asked to help because you are the cheap option. If you don't help out, they will have to pay someone on reserve to do it. (OMG, using reserve coverage to crew open flights - what a revolutionary idea!)

OR, even if you do believe that you're the ONLY one available, ask yourself how much a cancellation of even a 12 hr delay will cost them. I'm talking aircraft parking, hotels, missed connections, passenger compensation for delays & missed connections etc etc. Sort of makes the measly $10,000 you'll get sound pretty small.

Simple fact: NOTHING will change while people are helping them out.

And don't give me that cop-out about the Union not telling us to go to contract compliance. Learn to think for yourself!

By helping out, you are telling them you're happy with their conduct. The next time you are asked to help out, ask yourself if you're happy with the conduct of our management. Ask yourself if you're happy with roster instability. And when you ask yourself these questions, do it whilst you're looking the mirror, and be honest with yourself.

[SloppyJoe]

What I find absolutely astonishing is when a local guy helps out on a g day, also amazed by the expats, but a local really is shooting himself in the foot.

We are short of crew. Flights would be getting cancelled now or very very soon if no one helped.

The racial discrimination laws means you can't discriminate.

To crew aircraft they need to hire many new pilots and retain the ones they have already.

They are discovering that to hire new pilots in the numbers they require they will need to up the package.

Expat terms and conditions will not go up to fix this so there is only one thing they can do!!!!!!!!

They are going to have to hugely increase the new joiner package which means they will have to hugely increase the local package also. By helping out you are delaying, or if a fall in business is just around the corner you may never get a huge increase to your pay.

And some think our management are short sighted. :ugh:

[ChinaBeached]

Personally I hope the guys who accepted the iCadet job and (shock horror!) discovered it really is a sh!t sandwich have to pay CX every cent, nickel and dime. They asked for it and are now paying the price for this "opportunity".

And if they can't find the numbers in Pakistan they'll go elsewhere to find the cheapest option.

What a legacy TT! Great going RH.

[CokeZero]

broadband circuit

there is no one on reserve, they have all been called out. i have been watching the cover for some time. 4 captains, 4 f/o per fleet. check their realtime rosters and they're on flights. even when called out on reserve you have the option of 10 flights per fleet. happened to me last week on reserve. had my choice of 9 flights, they are desperate!

cz

[Frogman1484]

Coke zero. You are sad! You have nothing better to do on a Sat night? You need a life mate!:{

[tipsy.skipsy]

The desperate need of pilots which was there in India between 2003-2008 that ended up getting a lot of experienced expats on the LHS and a lot of Newbies with 200 hrs on the RHS.

But a handful of them ended up committing fraud - now the entire pilot community in India has to pay for it.

Majority of Indian pilots have gone to countries like USA , AUS , CAN to get their CPL's and the standards of aviation training are good in these countries, and a Handful went to Philippines :ugh: as well.

But If CX did plan to recruit in India , they will surely end up with some keen , intelligent and skilled pilots.

And if they are really really desperate for Pilots they should reduce the "Application - to - Stage 1" Wait times from 6 months .. to maybe 1 Month.

[CokeZero]

Frogman

I am sad :( Can I have a cuddle ;)

[treboryelk]

It's not just pricks working G-days.....some can't even stay away today until the end of their leave!

[4 driver]

It's been a while but I believe CX has previously offered to pay people to give up their leave.
Anyone remember the details of that because it is one of the last cards FOPS has to play?

[Bob Hawke]

Well make it worthwhile, if that is going to happen. Funny how a few years ago it was SLS, and now it might be offers to buy our leave back. Who manages the management?

[boocs]

'The Management' ?? Haven't heard from him/her for a while...

b.

[tiger321]

Probably because he is flying his ar$e off like the rest of us.

[Clear_sky]

Just heard from the man on the ground in NY that Newark has been postponed till end of year/early next year due lack of crew.

Wheels are only just hanging on for sure...

[tipsy.skipsy]

SIA recruiting indians for their Cadet Pilot Programme why CX does not want to go to India ?

Im sure that there are a few thousand desperate, jobless, well trained Indian Pilot's who will be happy to join the Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme. :}

[Frogman1484]

Moscow flight has just been cut from 3 times a week to 2 times...due lack of crew!

[boxerpilot]

The trick that SIA uses is that a cadet can be placed into SIA Cargo, Silkair or even Scoot today only AFTER he has been through the interview. So whilst the cadet may have the BIG dream of flying the 'cracked' winged A-380s, he might end up in Scoot with the Star Trek uniforms on a significantly diff pay scale, similarly with Cargo. The reactions by the general public in Singapore was as expected, up in arms with the notion of giving jobs to outsiders and not to locals. But these days, parents put their 150K into a sure thing like a university education providing security in a degree as opposed to a flying license, so go figure...no disrespect to Indians or Pakistanis etc...

[Kalistan]

I have a relative in NUS doing research about the vocational aspirations of young Singaporeans. Apparently a lot of young Singaporeans do not really aspire to be pilots as they are well aware of the ****ty deals a pilot gets as well as poor career progression. They rather go to the universities and get tertiary qualifications which will allow them to become their " own bosses " later in life. They are savvy and they know a pilot's life sucks!

[Cumguzzler]

We had an Indian SO one time, but for some reason she is no longer with us...

[average-punter]

I know a guy my age in Singapore that has just done that exact thing!

[Cpt. Underpants]

We had an Indian SO one time, but for some reason she is no longer with us...

True, but she was terminated quite a few years back. I believe she's now flying for a LCC in India.

[geh065]

Heard EWR was delayed because the shaky economy, and Moscow loads have been so low some flights have less than 100 pax.

[uspilot]

Welcome to India...:D

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/475943-cx-so-i-v-india-2.html

[Harbour Dweller]

Confirmed during Fleet forum. CX Recruitment people off to India and Pakistan in the next two months.

[The Wraith]

Awesome! Can't wait to fly with Vish320 and CloudRipper!!
Those multi thousand hour DESOs of yesteryear had no prior experience so it's good to see RH etc have remedied the situation!:D

[Baywatcher]

Trouble with Yaw Dampers now

[stakeknife]

EK tried recruiting in those regions along with a large number of regional jet Capts from the States and it has bitten them badly as a few years down the line many have failed or are unsuitable for command according to EK! That is from a recruitment manager in EK but who knows how true!

The Ryanairsation of Pilots T+C's continues worldwide....

[Toruk Macto]

CX don't care if the guys and girls they recruit today have issues with commands in 10-15 yrs from now as they see the writing on the wall, that is Beijing will own the whole thing by then and it will their problem. CX need Pilots now but to keep profits up and help bonuses /sale price of airline , they just want to fill the seats at the lowest possible cost. Only my opinion .

[bm330]

Will create a new reality when the CN or RQ needs a break and mister "I brought 80 hrs of flying experience with me" gets to mind the store.

[broadband circuit]

Will create a new reality when the CN or RQ needs a break and mister "I brought 80 hrs of flying experience with me" gets to mind the store.

Simple solution: have one of the cabin crew sitting in there with them, and give her the crowbar, with instructions to give him a solid whack if he touches anything.

[crwjerk]

No, BBC, get a cabin crew into the cockpit and tell him/her, "YOU HAVE CONTROL"

[Frogman1484]

I like the way recruiting don't want them to
Use pprune! That way they can Controll the lies they are telling the new joiners.
I bet the are telling them command in 5 years, bases to Mumbai or Delhi. $10,000 housing will get you a mansion...curry on all meals!

[ron burgandy]

Actually Froggy, your whole post is probably not lies. If they opened a Mumbai or Dehli base, these guys probably would get a command in 5 years. CX would avoid paying BPP as the the slots would be offered but I doubt many non Indian natives would take them. I don't know about $10k, but the 24k for CN's would get you a pretty good place over there. And there's always a curry on board!:{:{

[Frogman1484]

They would have to fight me for the curry!:O 24 k for command will take many years to achieve in seniority. If you think Oz tax is complicated you ain't seen nothing yet. The red tape in India is beyond stupid!:ugh:

[ron burgandy]

"24 k for command will take many years to achieve in seniority":ugh:

That's my point. If they opened Indian bases, they wouldn't be in seniority. How many guys do you know that would go to India for a command? Not many now, but if they start actively recruiting in India, I suspect there'll be plenty at the bottom of the list that would happily go home, and get a command 10 years ahead of time.:D

[Frogman1484]

Yes I would say so! The Indians just made it more complicated...:ok:

[jetjockey696]

If i was Cathay Pacific.. I would be very careful hiring these guys and gals... In my company we have caught a few Indian pilots with false type ratings... PAID the Indian DCGA offical to stamp his license with a type rating.. but never even set foot in a sim..

there are a lot of these guys and gals out there...

Indian arrests reveal corruption in granting of pilot licenses - Washington Post... 18th April 2011...

An Indian pilot made news here in January when she landed an Airbus 320 passenger plane on its nose wheel. Investigators soon discovered several alarming things: Parminder Kaur Gulati had not only made that dangerous mistake before, she also had earned her senior pilot’s license through fake grades.

Worse still, she had plenty of company.

A government-ordered investigation has exposed a nationwide network of flight schools, aviation officials and others routinely forging grade sheets, fudging logbooks and accepting bribes. The revelation that some unqualified aspirants have made it into the cockpit is just one of a string of scandals that have roiled India in the past six months, but it is among the most serious, potentially endangering the lives of thousands.

“It is worrying that people could get away with it for so long,” said E.K. Bharat Bhushan, India’s director general of civil aviation, showing files of fraudulent grade sheets. “These look so real. It really shakes you.”

Bhushan said he would not describe India’s skies as unsafe, noting, “These are only a handful of our 8,000 certified pilots.” Still, 29 pilots — including Gulati — have lost their licenses and 14 people have been arrested in the wake of the January incident, as officials comb through files from the past five years, scrutinizing the grades of more than 1,700 pilots and auditing 40 flight schools.

India’s airline industry expanded rapidly during that period. From 2009 to 2010 alone, passenger traffic grew by 19 percent. There were more than 51 million domestic passengers last year, and many of them used the numerous low-fare airlines that have sprung up.

The boom also triggered a rush among India’s youths for lucrative jobs as pilots.

“So many flying schools opened in the boom time,” Bhushan said. “There was a lot of competition, but hardly any oversight.”

To graduate from an Indian aviation school, students must log 200 hours of flying time, then pass four written tests. That qualifies them for a commercial pilot’s license, which allows them to work as a co-pilot. To take command of an aircraft, they have to fly 1,500 hours and take additional written tests, which officials say 30 percent of candidates pass.

“The questions in the tests are theoretical, irrelevant and chosen by bureaucrats who have never touched the controls of the aircraft,” said a senior pilot who works for government-owned Air India and spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing his job. “This is why so many resort to faking their test results. It’s a well-oiled machinery. Flying hours cannot be fudged without the active connivance of aerodrome officials, aviation fuel suppliers, flying instructors and government officials. The rot affects the entire system — from top to the bottom.”

Pilots suspended in the past month worked for Air India and the private airlines SpiceJet and IndiGo, Gulati’s employer.

“We have busted two organized gangs from six cities that ran this racket of fudging test marks and booked them for cheating and forgery,” said Ashok Chand, deputy commissioner of police in New Delhi’s crime department. “The pilots’ licenses have been canceled, but the court has granted them bail.”

Chand said the average bribe paid by aspiring pilots for a forged grade sheet was about $15,000. In India, cheating carries a maximum sentence of seven years in prison.

The civil aviation minister, Vayalar Ravi, told the Parliament that a committee has been formed to develop tougher standards for verifying pilots’ test grades and licenses. He also said that online testing may soon be an option, as part of the effort to limit the opportunities for tampering. The committee’s report is expected by the end of the month.

Priya Subramanian, from the southern city of Chennai, wanted to be a pilot and spent the past year checking out flying schools nationwide.

“I visited six flying academies. It was so frightening because some of them are just operating out of one or two dilapidated, empty rooms. There is no runway, no aircraft most of the time,” she said. “I often wondered about how dangerous it can be to fly in India. When the scandal hit the headlines, I was not surprised at all.”

Subramanian, 33, said she has put her dream of flying on hold until the government addresses the corruption in the system.

In the past two years, the Civil Aviation Ministry also caught 57 pilots who reported drunk for work.

[cxorcist]

that the company is willing to go to places like India and Pakistan to fill cockpits? Especially when there are qualified guys 'n' gals out there right now willing to do the job for the right package on a base or in Hong Kong.

To put it another way, CX is willing to jeopardize our safety record so they do not have to pay a reasonable wage. They will lean ever more on us (current CNs and FOs) to compensate for the lack of experience (and perhaps English) in the cockpit.

When I joined CX, I thought I was joining a first-world airline in a second / third world country. I was wrong, CX is rapidly falling behind the world-class airlines of the world in their ardent attempts to cut costs. It won't be long before CX is considered no better than any other Asian airline with regards to safety.

The good news is that when this place devolves into nothing better than a contract job, it will be very easy to leave for contracts elsewhere.

[schweizer2]

It is quite an awful feeling to have failed the CX interview...more then once.... especially having grown up in HK, dreamt of CX then finding out they head to India for pilots :(

[cxorcist]

Interviews are like standardized tests. Just because one doesn't do well on them doesn't mean that person is unintelligent or wrong for the job. Many of the managers doing the interviews are in those positions because they were not well liked or very good at flying the line in the first place. In that regard, you could take your rejections as a backhanded compliment. Like Jeremy Lin, don't stop believing in yourself just because you have been kicked back a couple times.

[schweizer2]

Thank you for the words of encouragement,

Im am extremely determined at having my Aviation career out of HK and will do what it takes to achieve it.

I've been very fortunately to live in different countries recently but I still find it difficult to accept the fact that I may have to have a career outside HK.

[Fly747]

Shweizer, have you tried Dragon? They are recruiting 40 DEFOs and 35 cadets this year for their expansion.

[schweizer2]

Trying, need to get some extra flight training out of the way. Was told I would only be considered if I meet the pre-qualified cadets requirements as I already hold a CPL.

Knowing my luck, I'll probably just miss out on the recruitment period :ugh:

But I've got a licence and the glass is half full.

[Subwoofer]

From High flying aspirations - Express TravelWorld (http://www.expresstravelworld.com/201203/life01.shtml)

High flying aspirations

For the very first time Cathay Pacific has sent a recruitment team to India for hiring second officers. The airline that is recruiting 300 pilots annually promises long-term career development path to high potential candidates. By Sudipta Dev

To keep pace with its growth plans Cathay Pacific has a target of recruiting 300 pilots annually for the next two years. A high level recruitment team was in Mumbai recently to do the first phase of screening of 77 second officers from India. It is for the very first time that the airline is doing recruitment for flight crew in India.Till recently Cathay Pacific has been majorly hiring from the traditional markets, mostly Commonwealth countries like the UK, Australia and Canada, besides of course Hong Kong nationals. In fact 43 nationalities have been working as flight crew with the airline. “In India we see a great number of very well qualified candidates. Essentiallly we chose to come at this time as as we had many applications from Indian nationals. They have been writing to us constantly though we have never advertised for the positions. We have looked at the best applications and have called them,” says Captain Paul Gunnel, deputy chief pilot (Airbus), Cathay Pacific.

The airline has three streams for the recruitment of second officers – those with with no previous experience (this is only Hong Kong ID card holders); advanced entry (having commercial pilot license and 250 hours flying time); and transition training entry ( air transport pilot license and 1500 flying hours). From India this time recruitment is being done for the advanced entry stream. The recruitment team have been interviewing six people every day and those who pass the initial screening will be contacted for the second stage of selection. The first phase involves three aspects – technical paper, reasoning test and an interview. All the positions are Hong Kong based. “We will take as many proven suitable. It is important to stress that it is not a competition, those selected must meet our standards,” says Gunnel, pointing out that following the recruitment team's return to Hong Kong they will take a call on whom to call for the second stage. “We offer a package that is competitive for the candidates we seek and we offer a full career in aviation,” he adds.

Training and development

All pilots hired by Cathay Pacific go to Australia following their selection and depending on their experience there are three different training packages. The training programme in Australia is funded by the company. “After training they will get their Hong Kong pilot license and second officer training in Hong Kong. The second phase of the training is for two months,” mentions Gunnel.

The airline is committed to career development of all its personnel and therefore wants to hire only those second officers who possess command potential. The career path from a second officer to first officer and finally a Cathay Pacific captain is what the company envisages for them at the time of recruitment. For second officers who show excellence at work it takes about three to five years to become first officers and then another five to six years to reach the position of commander and captain.

While technical skill is a key criteria for selection the recruitment experts look at other important aspects as well. “We are looking at them to be commanders so we want candidates who are motivated to be with us. They should be disciplined professionals who have a passion for aviation. They should be willing to work hard to get where they want to be,” says Gunnel.

For an airline that has a flight crew from 43 different countries one of the most significant factors is the cosmopolitan mindset of candidates. “A cockpit is a claustrophobic environment and to work in close contact with people from so many different nationalities and cultures it is essential for them to have a cosmopolitan outlook to be able to work in that environment,” states Gunnel.

For an industry that constantly goes through ups and downs, Gunnel points out that Cathay has been good at weathering the storms and promises to meet long term career aspirations of its personnel.

[XFR8]

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/476610-cathay-pacific-second-officer-advanced-entry-initial-interview-3.html

[Sqwak7700]

I can't believe the HK press have not picked up on this. The airline which once attracted the most experienced from all over the world is now recruiting in a country with a fake-pilot epidemic that goes as deep as you want to take it.

But what do you expect when you pay peanuts. I guess they have given up, since they can't attract any pilots, they will recruit non-pilots? :roll eyes:

This is gonna be fun. :yuk:

[schweizer2]

darn! should have swapped my HKID card for Indian citizenship :ugh:

[Cpt. Underpants]

Schweizer2

Surely you meant to say

"Darn, I should have BOUGHT an Indian ID card"? I'm pretty sure that someone in The Department Of Citizenship Type Things would found extenuating circumstances and seen their way to a little bit of monetary induced greasing of wheels...

Well, goodness gracious me.

[treboryelk]

And why not fly them to hong kong for their second interview on the freighter.....it is a business class seat after all.

[broadband circuit]

And why not fly them to hong kong for their second interview on the freighter.....it is a business class seat after all.

The sad truth is that the day they travel to HK, there is likely to be a pilot PXd on the freighter, after being told "sorry, no passenger flight seats"

[schweizer2]

Cpt. Underpants,

You're right, I have done it all wrong.
Life would have been so much easier to just buy my licence and clearly more usefull aswell.

I hope the idea of not being able to fly for my "childhood" airline wont hunt me forever :ugh:

[Baywatcher]

Trouble is the maintenance costs will go up with yaw damper overhauls, due to head nodding!

[Jim-J]

:O hahahaha

[Steve the Pirate]

I find it somewhat ironic that there have been discussions on this forum regarding Indian cabin crew, most of whom are highly thought of by the cockpit crew community for being well-educated, engaging and able to have meaningful discussions without descending into innuendo (and understanding any innuendo!).

By contrast, here we are slagging off potential recruits without knowing anything about them. The fact that there have been a significant number of pilots flying without proper qualifications in their country is naturally of concern. However, it would be unfair to make assumptions based on the actions of some - it's a bit like saying all Australians are boorish, or all Americans are obese, or all Brits are toffee-nosed public schoolboys - you get my drift.

I would have thought that any recruit would go through the same process. Assuming any of these candidates from the sub-continent are successful at interview, don' t they then have to go to flight screening before they're offered a course? Assuming they're successful at flight screening, don't they have to sit the same exams as everyone else? Assuming they're successful with their exams, don't they have to pass the same flying tests as everyone else? Assuming they pass they course in Adelaide, don't they undergo the same conversion training as everyone else?

I seem to remember that one of the doctors who used to revalidate aircrew medicals was of Indian origin and most people seemed happy to work with him - or doesn't that count? Or is it a case of us being happy for Indian girls to make our tea but not happy for any of their brothers to fly with us. Bigotry is a word that springs to mind.

STP

[Glass Half Empty]

Should that not read brothers and sisters to fly with us?

[Steve the Pirate]

Good spot - just seeing if anyone would bother reading it, hence the deliberate omission! :)

[Sqwak7700]

You have a good point, Steve, one must not stereotype. But you must admit that the timing is very suspicious.

Remember when all that tainted milk was making the headlines in China? What would you think of your local supermarket if they decided to import a boatload of Chinese milk soon thereafter, instead of the usual, more expensive imported milk from countries with regulations to reduce the risk of such an occurrence?

You have to admit, there are LOADS of countries from which Cathay could recruit. There are many pilots living all over the world. If the package is competitive, as Cathay claim it to be, then recruiting pilots should not be a problem, regardless of location. But you and I both know what is going on here. Politically correct BS aside, do you honestly think they are in "Incredible India" because they welcome adding so much diversity to the CPA group?

Come on, I know you operate into India, it is hard to avoid no matter what fleet you are on. As a whole, how much respect do you have for Indian Aviation? I'm sure there are some sharp knives in the drawer, like you say, we can't generalize. But you can't shut your eyes and plug your ears and just pretend it ain't so. The mess that is flying in India can't be blamed on anyone else but India.

Keep in mind, not every country excels in everything they do. I can accept that the US is probably not leading the pack when it comes to nutrition or even education. And maybe China won't win any awards for the most clean and polite country to visit - Hong Kong is certainly no place to take a "deep breath". But really, India? Is that what it really comes down to? Is saving pennies on recruitment worth the millions it will cost in training and liability? :hmm:

[cxorcist]

Sqwak7700,

Excellent retort!

STP,

I notice you did not defend Pakistan in your missive. Why's that? Perhaps PC only extends so far before it starts to look ridiculous.

One only need look at our current cadets to see that it is difficult (not impossible) to obtain a Western caliber aviator from a non-Western country. It's not bigotry so much as reality. It has to do with culture and the aviation environment in which we grow up, not race.

CXorcist

PS - I like Indian cabin crew as well, but anyone who knows anything about India knows their women are much more refined than their men, by Western standards at least:)

[Steve the Pirate]

Sqwak7700, I like your analogy of the tainted milk. However, to continue your analogy, there is one fundamental difference in that the "produce" will have been tested at a number of different stages before "consumption". Both you and cxorcist either didn't read the questions I posed in my original post or simply chose to ignore them and I await anyone's reply with interest.

I agree that operating into India is challenging but I guess when there's been a goodness-knows-how-many percent increase in air traffic whilst trying to operate with ageing infrastructure (and hence procedures) then, on reflection, they (ATC) do a reasonable job.

Politically correct BS aside, do you honestly think they are in "Incredible India" because they welcome adding so much diversity to the CPA group?Not at all.

Keep in mind, not every country excels in everything they do.I agree but flying is a skill, much the same as cricket is a skill - some countries excel, England for instance, and others would suck if they played it. India plays a pretty mean game of cricket.. Going on from your point about a few sharp knives, in a country of 1 billion people I would hazard a guess that, statistically, there are one or two who might fit the bill - if they want to come to Hong Kong that is.

Is saving pennies on recruitment worth the millions it will cost in training and liability?What is the basis for this comment? Do you think that anyone from the sub-continent would not receive the same training (and checking) that our current pilots do? If they receive the same training and checking then surely that would be the deciding factor for underwriters, not the percentage breakdown of nationalities?

cxorcist - long time no debate, how are you?

I notice you did not defend Pakistan in your missive. Why's that? Perhaps PC only extends so far before it starts to look ridiculous. I didn't defend Pakistan but my comments apply equally to applicants from there or, for that matter, any country. Why should one's country of origin be an impediment to joining a company? I've heard it said that eyebrows were raised when the first Canadians were recruited, and look at how many excellent Canadian pilots we have now eh? Further, I'm not being PC - surely if someone is good enough then they should be offered a position rather than not if the only criterion for not offering the position is a perception that their employment will lower the standards of the airline.

It's not bigotry so much as reality.I disagree. The reality is that we are all making assumptions - yes, me too - with the vast majority of respondents on this thread assuming that all iCadets are going to be useless , especially those who are the subject of this particular thread. The reality is that that this perception is driven by the fact that because they are willing to accept a lower package then they are assumed to be sub-standard and I simply can't see how such an assertion can be made without personal (or corporate) experience. So I still think bigotry is involved here.

It has to do with culture and the aviation environment in which we grow up, not race. Presumably by this you mean something like the aviation environment in which many of our Hong Kong pilots grew up? I'm sure that some had a lifelong passion for flying but I also would hazard a guess that many of our current local pilots hadn't even thought about a career in aviation until they saw an advert in a newspaper.

So, I'll ask again, will these boys and girls have to go through the same selection, exams, flying tests and on-going checking as everyone else?

STP

[cxorcist]

STP-

I'm well. Thanks for asking.

You're correct. They will sit them same exams and checks we did, but does that mean they will perform to the same standard? I think not.

If the economics require a lower checking standard to put butts in seats, that is what we'll get. Does anyone really think that the standard hasn't been lowered over the last five years? Of course it has. Some of this was necessary and overdue as CX has a tendency to master the unnecessary. However, there are quite a few FOs and SOs here now that would have been terminated in the past.

The truth is that CX should not be anyone's first flying gig. My opinion is that this lends to a lack of perspective, but I suppose we don't need to argue that again.

[Steve the Pirate]

cxorcist,

but does that mean they will perform to the same standard? I think not. What's the basis for this statement?

If the economics require a lower checking standard to put butts in seats, that is what we'll get.So are you saying that all of our independent, CAD approved examiners have been allowing pilots to pass checks when, if fact, they should have failed? If so, what is your source to back up this assertion?

However, there are quite a few FOs and SOs here now that would have been terminated in the past.You know this as a fact or is it a perception you have from flying with those who you think aren't cutting the mustard? I must say, the vast majority of pilots I fly with are very, very good - maybe I'm either lucky or have no appreciation of what the standard should be.

The truth is that CX should not be anyone's first flying gig.I don't think that's the truth, merely your opinion and I respect that. It's a bit like saying, "Let's be honest" when a comparison is being made based on a biased point of view. As it happens, we have a significant number of locally employed pilots for whom CX is their "first gig", as you put it, and will probably be their only "gig". Do they lack perspective? Possibly. Would they have had a broader experience had they worked for other companies before coming here? Naturally. Does this lack of breadth of experience make them bad pilots? Probably not. That, of course, is my opinion.

STP

[cxorcist]

STP,

I think you are being a bit pedantic. This is a rumor forum, not a scientific journal. All the evidence is empirical. I cannot apply the scientific method to any of our statements. However, I don't think that makes the statement invalid, just debateable. Hence, we have a forum where guys disagree.

With regard to standards, I will agree that most CX pilots are sharp. However, several things have dulled the blade over the last few years. RA65 has not helped. Some guys into their 60s start to lose what they once had, but they can still pull off a LC or PC. On the other end, some of our new SOs are so inexperienced that I cannot stop thinking about it when I take an inflight slash. Several FOs hired onto bases have survived multiple chop checks. That would not have happened several years back. One guy even busted a chop check but managed to get another to pass. This is definitely a kinder and gentler CX. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but you have to wonder how far it will go with recruitment working its way onto the subcontinent and beyond.

An obvious tell will be the English standard. If it starts to drop, we will know CX is truly bottom feeding and not just looking for the best applicants from around the world at the cheapest price. Do you disagree?

CXorcist

[Frogman1484]

No matter where they are looking for new recruits, Cx is bottom feeding.
We have an SO from Canada, which is seriously bottom feeding stuff!:ugh:

He is the worst I have seen in over 15 years at CX. I think he makes a low timer from India look good!:D

[Steve the Pirate]

cxorcist

However, I don't think that makes the statement invalid, just debateable.I am being pedantic and, for that, I make no apologies. You're right, this is a rumour forum but when posters make statements that are nothing other than their opinions dressed up to be fact then that's when my pedanticometer goes off-scale. I also agree with your statement above but so often posters are reluctant to enter a debate when their posts have been ridiculed when all they're trying to do is offer an alternative point of view.

Some guys into their 60s start to lose what they once had, but they can still pull off a LC or PC.Perhaps you're right but unless there are facts to support this statement it is, once again, either your opinion or hearsay.

On the other end, some of our new SOs are so inexperienced that I cannot stop thinking about it when I take an inflight slash.So presumably you're saying that if something were to happen whilst you were away from the controls you are concerned that these inexperienced SOs would be incapable of making the correct decision and taking appropriate action? May I ask how you felt when you were flying with some of our locally employed cadets who are now STCs? The fact is that everyone starts off inexperienced and they learn their trade and gain experience on the job.

As far as the English standard goes, I thought all pilots had to achieve and maintain a certain level from an ICAO standpoint to be able to hold a licence - I'm not sure this has anything to do with CX. Out of the 2500+ pilots we have at the moment I'm not sure how many aren't Level 6 but I was under the impression that those who aren't are evaluated on a regular basis - anyone?

Clearly only time will tell if either of us are right or wrong. If it transpires that this tranche of recruits is below standard then some of the comments on this thread will turn out to have been justified. I still stand by my opinion that many of the posts have the word 'bigot' stamped across them - and I'm not being PC here.

Frogman1484

I sincerely hope that you have taken your concerns about this particular individual to the 3rd floor as to do otherwise is being irresponsible.

STP

[404 Titan]

Steve the Pirate
Frogman1484

I sincerely hope that you have taken your concerns about this particular individual to the 3rd floor as to do otherwise is being irresponsible.
If it is the person I think it is, the 3rd floor is very well aware of this problem child. His/her reputation precedes them from problems in ADL, conversion and LFUS training to line flights. If this person doesn’t wake up to themselves soon I’ll be very surprised if they make it to a JFO course let alone passing one.

[Steve the Pirate]

404 Titan

Thanks for the clarification. It would be interesting to know what, if any, additional training and/or counselling this particular individual is receiving. Bit of a thread drift - apologies.

STP

[broadband circuit]

This isn't an issue of race or nationality. It is an issue of experience.

We have had numerous zero hour pilots join CX over the years, (Cadet Entry Pilots formerly known as LEPs) who have worked hard & achieved great success. The thing that has helped them along is the opportunity to learn from the experience of pilots around them.

What would happen if CX were to announce that effective today, the only entry point is for zero hour HKID holding cadets? IMHO we would see, over time, a gross dissolution of the experience levels of the pilots company wide. I'm not just simply referring to hours in the log book, but more fundamental things, like flight deck & bar discussions about topics such as "how I nearly killed myself flying a light twin at night in icing conditions". In an airline, due to the normally benign nature of the operation, people learn more from war-stories than they do from seeing things go awry in the aircraft.

The point is that there is nothing wrong with having SOME low or zero hour guys, but they need to be balanced with experienced recruits.

Have another look at the link to the thread on the India forum and ask yourself who these applicants are. Are they highly experienced pilots, or do most seem to struggle to meet the bare-minimum requirements?

Ts & Cs in India might not sound as good as other places on paper, but consider them in the context of the cost of living. My take is that any pilot in India already with a job where he can gain the type of experience we need will be taking a big chop in his lifestyle to move to CX, and won't want to do it. Which is exactly what they found when they tried to recruit in Pakistan.

Let me re-state my first line:

This isn't an issue of race or nationality. It is an issue of experience.

[badairsucker]

We have an SO from Canada, which is seriously bottom feeding stuff!:ugh:

He is the worst I have seen in over 15 years at CX.


No No No No No,

I have flown with loads of Canadians and they all tell me they are great at flying.

You must be mistaken.:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Sqwak7700]

STP:

You speak of your posts as facts, what makes them any more fact than other's posts? Seems a bit pretentious to me buddy.

So presumably you're saying that if something were to happen whilst you were away from the controls you are concerned that these inexperienced SOs would be incapable of making the correct decision and taking appropriate action?

You want facts? Look at this link:

Panicking co-pilot put Air India Express jet into steep dive - The National (http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/panicking-co-pilot-put-air-india-express-jet-into-steep-dive)

I don't have a problem with Indian pilots. We have some now which are fine individuals. My problem is with Cathay going to recruit specifically in India BECAUSE they can't attract any other crew in the current scheme, regardless of nationality or race.

But you ignore the fact that the recruitment drive in India is brought on by the fact that no-one is accepting the current package. So, an airline like Cathay who used to have a pile of resumes from all over the world to choose from, is reduced to slithering off to a third world country with systemic, SERIOUS aviation safety problems in order to find people willing to accept this crap deal.

That was the point of my post. You decided to focus on the race itself, my problem is recruiting from an area which is known to be deficient in quality and devoid of any safety culture. I don't care if they are Indian, African, Asian, Caucasian, or Latino. We have all of these at Cathay. The problem is not having different races, the problem is focusing your recruitment in an area plagued by problems because you no longer attract the best candidate.

Do you see the difference? I'm with you on the race discrimination stuff, but I think we are talking about different things really.

[Frogman1484]

The 3rd floor knows about him...in fact just about every captain on the bus knows who he is.:ok:

How he made it through the training machine, I don't know. Maybe the standards are getting lowered to allow the cheap recruits in!

[Steve the Pirate]

Sqwak7700

You speak of your posts as facts, what makes them any more fact than other's posts? Seems a bit pretentious to me buddy.

With respect, I disagree. The only time I mentioned a fact in any of my posts on this thread is when I mentioned that everyone starts off inexperienced, something which is indisputable surely? Instead, I simply questioned others' blurring of opinion and fact.

We could all post links that highlight incidents that occurred for a variety of reasons but surely many would involve experienced aircrew?

But you ignore the fact that the recruitment drive in India is brought on by the fact that no-one is accepting the current package.

No I don't and I agree that this is definitely a departure from the more traditional recruiting grounds. My contention from the outset though has been that we shouldn't pre-judge these potential recruits, fundamentally because they might accept a lower package than what has traditionally been on offer - the race aspect is largely immaterial. However, you can't deny that some posters have been somewhat racist in their comments.

I'm with you on the dilution of experience - something that has been a factor for a number of years. I was under the impression though that some of the latest recruits are quite experienced - 3000+ hours. Whether recruiting from an area "plagued by problems" will worsen this dilution of experience is moot as many of those who might have joined from more traditional areas would be similarly inexperienced.

STP

[crwjerk]

That's because an experienced STC cocked one up.

[broadband circuit]

The 3rd floor knows about him...in fact just about every captain on the bus knows who he is.

Are there any plans to CHUCK him out of the company?

[cyrilroy21]

High flying aspirations

For the very first time Cathay Pacific has sent a recruitment team to India for hiring second officers. The airline that is recruiting 300 pilots annually promises long-term career development path to high potential candidates. By Sudipta Dev

To keep pace with its growth plans Cathay Pacific has a target of recruiting 300 pilots annually for the next two years. A high level recruitment team was in Mumbai recently to do the first phase of screening of 77 second officers from India. It is for the very first time that the airline is doing recruitment for flight crew in India.Till recently Cathay Pacific has been majorly hiring from the traditional markets, mostly Commonwealth countries like the UK, Australia and Canada, besides of course Hong Kong nationals. In fact 43 nationalities have been working as flight crew with the airline. “In India we see a great number of very well qualified candidates. Essentiallly we chose to come at this time as as we had many applications from Indian nationals. They have been writing to us constantly though we have never advertised for the positions. We have looked at the best applications and have called them,” says Captain Paul Gunnel, deputy chief pilot (Airbus), Cathay Pacific.

The airline has three streams for the recruitment of second officers – those with with no previous experience (this is only Hong Kong ID card holders); advanced entry (having commercial pilot license and 250 hours flying time); and transition training entry ( air transport pilot license and 1500 flying hours). From India this time recruitment is being done for the advanced entry stream. The recruitment team have been interviewing six people every day and those who pass the initial screening will be contacted for the second stage of selection. The first phase involves three aspects – technical paper, reasoning test and an interview. All the positions are Hong Kong based. “We will take as many proven suitable. It is important to stress that it is not a competition, those selected must meet our standards,” says Gunnel, pointing out that following the recruitment team's return to Hong Kong they will take a call on whom to call for the second stage. “We offer a package that is competitive for the candidates we seek and we offer a full career in aviation,” he adds.

Training and development

All pilots hired by Cathay Pacific go to Australia following their selection and depending on their experience there are three different training packages. The training programme in Australia is funded by the company. “After training they will get their Hong Kong pilot license and second officer training in Hong Kong. The second phase of the training is for two months,” mentions Gunnel.

The airline is committed to career development of all its personnel and therefore wants to hire only those second officers who possess command potential. The career path from a second officer to first officer and finally a Cathay Pacific captain is what the company envisages for them at the time of recruitment. For second officers who show excellence at work it takes about three to five years to become first officers and then another five to six years to reach the position of commander and captain.

While technical skill is a key criteria for selection the recruitment experts look at other important aspects as well. “We are looking at them to be commanders so we want candidates who are motivated to be with us. They should be disciplined professionals who have a passion for aviation. They should be willing to work hard to get where they want to be,” says Gunnel.

For an airline that has a flight crew from 43 different countries one of the most significant factors is the cosmopolitan mindset of candidates. “A cockpit is a claustrophobic environment and to work in close contact with people from so many different nationalities and cultures it is essential for them to have a cosmopolitan outlook to be able to work in that environment,” states Gunnel.

For an industry that constantly goes through ups and downs, Gunnel points out that Cathay has been good at weathering the storms and promises to meet long term career aspirations of its personnel.


High flying aspirations - Express TravelWorld (http://www.expresstravelworld.com/201203/life01.shtml)

[cyrilroy21]

@Squawk 7700

Please allow me to paint a slightly different picture about pilots in India .

There are close to 6000 of them unemployed .

About 80-85% learnt to fly and obtained their license outside India due to the lack of good flying schools and flying environment for general aviation
Majority of them going to the US , Canada , Europe , Australia and New Zealand

As you can see they passed the very same tests you did in order to obtain their licenses .

Once they are done with their flying they come back and convert their license to an Indian DGCA one .
They cannot remain in any of these countries due to residency restrictions and such issues ( although a few do )

Indian Aviation has a lot of problems and hence they all went outside to do their flying
All those applicants that Cathay interviews in India probably learnt to fly outside India . They probably received thousands of applications from unemployed 250 hour CPL holders which is why they must have come here to interview candidates .
However these applicants have nil idea on what the job actually is or what kind of lifestyle the salary on offer buys you in Hong Kong


I doubt any Indian pilot with experience employed with the airlines in India will apply to this positions if they find out the Terms and Conditions for this position .


As for Air India and its incidents......
Well the saying here is unless you have powerful connections inside there is no way you will be employed with them .
The above mentioned Co-Pilot probably was employed due to his connections rather than flying skills....
There are numerous threads regarding AI training being below standards....( goes by the username TopTup or something like that for more info )

If you connect the dots I think you can see bigger picture regarding AI

[Sqwak7700]

Cyrilroy21:

As you can see they passed the very same tests you did in order to obtain their licenses .

Really?

India may have 4000 'fake' pilots (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/delhi-air-india-pilot-arrested-for-forging-marks-for-licence-91398)

So that leaves 2000 pilots I guess? The problem is that the structure is simply not there to catch these problems. Sure, this happens in the modern world as well, but it is a matter of scale that makes it alarming in one scenario and a fluke in the other.

I'm sorry, but why bother trying to sift through the scraps at the bottom of our profession when they could offer what is needed to make the talent come on their own free-will? That is the big white elephant in the room. I would love to hear JS bullsh1t his way around trying to explain that to people who are paying some of the highest fares in the world to travel on an airplane.

[cyrilroy21]

Well if you read the article carefully



4000 Pilot Licenses are now under fresh scrutiny


There are close to 4500 Indian DGCA ATPL holders in India . What the article mentions is that all the ATPL licenses issued so far will be checked again

However if you read the headlines it gives the feeling that all the pilot licenses issued so far and i mean each every one of them are fake :hmm:

I am sure you understand how the media loves to blow things out of proportion especially when it comes to aviation .

This what happened . They get fed of trying to clear the ATPL written exams and oral exams . Yes there are oral exams for ATPL theory . If you dont pass the oral you are considered fail in the written even if you get 100% in the written exam .
So what they did was they bribed some guy in front of the DGCA office to get a fake mark sheet telling they passed .
Using this the DGCA issued them an ATPL .
The DGCA had an a very vague syllabus until June 2011 . They were forced to publish a detailed syllabus due to the above issue


I remember reading about a Captain who had forged his ATPL Meteorology paper . He got fed up of giving it again and again and then finally found someone to make him a fake mark sheet .
He converted his FAA ATP license to an Indian DGCA ATPL .

His FAA ATP license was original . His DGCA license was fake because of the forged mark sheet .

I dont agree or support him at all for what he did but... Does that make him a fake pilot ?
He passed all the FAA and Indian DGCA checkrides . But that one meteorology paper screwed up his whole career of 22 years .


Like I said earlier the media loves to overhype and sensationalise when to comes to scams and aviation .

The majority of them worked very hard to come this far .

However the 1% that wanted it the easy way gave us a bad name in the world of aviation :rolleyes:

[HotDog]

There have been several Indian, experienced applicants to CX in the past like Capt. Parashar who was rejected and finished up as head of AHK Air Hong Kong before Cathay bought out the company. Not just Indians but highly experienced European applicants that didn't fit the British and Australian (with reservations) mould, including Americans. How times have changed!

[smurf84]

Oh boy, India bashing again. I've been trying to explain this to everyone on other forums. It just doesn't seem to get into their heads for some reason. Either you don't want to share the cockpit with us or you simply think Indians (and people from the subcontinent) don't deserve to be flying with you. Nevertheless, we're still going for it.

Sqwak7700, please don't get me wrong. But I really don't think it was your birthright to earn the title of an airline pilot. I don't want to get to the 'root cause' of this animosity shown towards us by many pilots from English-speaking countries.

It is very obvious that pilots from the subcontinent have come under a barrage of criticism from the skippers/FOs (mainly the Poms/Yanks/Aussies) presently working with CX. Needless to say, there are incidents i.e. media reports associated with airlines and the regulator in India which provide substantial proof to your fancy theories. You derive some sort of pleasure when you see it coming. However, there may be many rotten eggs. But not all are.

During my training for a PPL in a flight school down under, before I got my first solo, I came across a Grade 2 flying instructor (No, he wasn't from the subcontinent) and I asked him the course of action that should be taken when the static source failed (in a C152 that had no alternate static source). He didn't know what to say and decided to conveniently walk away. Now, that's just one of them. Not all. Today, he would definitely want to get into Cathay's Second Officer programme (maybe he is in it already), and if I ever bumped into him, I wouldn't judge the guy based on that question that got him knocked out 2 years ago.

Many of you would right away put your bet on blokes from the subcontinent when it comes to poor standards in terms of flying and aeronautical knowledge. Again, you may get excited reading media reports and other incidents. But I wouldn't generalize this case study with all Indian pilots. Here's the bitter truth and as Cyril mentioned before - There are nearly 6000 commercial pilots with 200+ hours unemployed in India at the moment. I repeat, 'many' of them took it up just for the money and lifestyle overpowering their passion for flying which would directly affect their basic knowledge. I reckon two-thirds of them (including myself) were trained in UK, Australia, New Zealand, USA, South Africa and Canada. There isn't much of GA happening in India. Not too many flight schools either. Unfortunately, I assume only a third of that alarming figure of 6000 would be employed with the airlines in the next 10-15 years. And yes, there is always room for nepotism. The rest would take up other jobs/businesses and move on. But these are desperate times for Indian pilots, and I agree not every one of us would fit the bill. I'd be a moron if I said we wouldn't take any opportunity that comes our way.

Cathay Pacific came to India (owing to the huge number of applications received) this year for the first time. According to reports, 77 qualified pilots were called for the advanced entry initial interview. Now these 77 pilots have to go through the same selection process as is conducted for pilots in the UK, USA, Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand. There are some who fail and some who pass. The pilots who passed must have definitely met the standards set by Cathay Pacific (whether the standards of recruitment have gone down or not is not our headache). But the road doesn't end there. We still have to pass the written test and final interview. Wait, there's still flight grading and more checks (again, whether CX is not too strict about it is not our headache).

To some of you along with Sqwak7700, with all due respect, I understand your frustration on Cathay's recruitment drive in the subcontinent and our pilots falling prey to the terms and conditions of the airline (looting taxes, poor housing allowance, low salaries) which I assume have been affecting you. Yes, I've done a bit of reading on John Warham's 49ers. If you have a serious problem with the recruitment standards, the 250+ hours criteria and the nationality of the cadet pilot, I suggest you and your fellow skippers/officers should take it up with the management. Instead, you take the easy way out by discouraging aspiring pilots from joining the airline (especially in times when there are not too many jobs in the market). We have no fallback option but to apply for the Second Officer programme with some of the airlines. As for Cathay Pacific, we may not pass the test. But we are certainly hardworking and we will try again to earn that position. But don't write us off. This is a learning curve. I'm sure you followed it too with years of training and on-the-job experience. Agreed, we have only 250 odd hours, but if it takes 4 or 5 or 6 years for the SO to JFO transition, so be it.

[711]

Smurf,

no intelligent person doubts that Indians can be professional, skilled pilots. Racism has no place in aviation, period.

But don't forget, many of us fly to India frequently, and what you experience there is, please forgive me, simply terrible. We are not blinded by media, this is true first hand experience.The standard of ATC, by pilots and contollers, the lack of any organisation or system, horrendous runway conditions, multiple useless stamps while you pass an army of uniformed muppets in the terminal, the awful traffic disregarding any rules or even common sense,useless hotel staff, I could go on and on.
India today is clearly a dysfunctional society, with religious fatalism, out-of-control demographics, lethal pollution paired with corruption of epic dimensions.

If I would be asked for one word to describe India it would be chaos.

It is just sometimes hard to believe anything of higher standard can come out of this mess, but of course you are right that this is completely feasible.
Plus I can guarantee you that any applicant, no matter from which country, will have to work very hard to have a career in Cathay. Good luck.

[smurf84]

The standard of ATC, by pilots and contollers, the lack of any organisation or system, horrendous runway conditions, multiple useless stamps while you pass an army of uniformed muppets in the terminal, the awful traffic disregarding any rules or even common sense,useless hotel staff, I could go on and on.
India today is clearly a dysfunctional society, with religious fatalism, out-of-control demographics, lethal pollution paired with corruption of epic dimensions.


You are absolutely right. Many of those pilots and controllers have gone through the poorest of training one could ever think of.

All this comes down to two main reasons - corruption and population which has gone completely out of hand. Someone tries to change the system and the system crushes you. We take pride in facts such as the 2nd largest army in the world, one of the fastest growing economies, one of the biggest consumer markets....but we all know, there's a lot more than these facts. And frightening too.

We'll leave that aside for now and focus on the thread.

[Baywatcher]

BBC News - Singapore Airlines offers no-pay leave to pilots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17312501)

[Sqwak7700]

Sqwak7700, please don't get me wrong. But I really don't think it was your birthright to earn the title of an airline pilot. I don't want to get to the 'root cause' of this animosity shown towards us by many pilots from English-speaking countries.

I never claimed it was my birthright, regardless of nationality. Like any profession, it is what you make of it and how you treat it. You sound legit and probably are a true professional, but my point still stands. Cathay is recruiting in one of the worst places to recruit pilots, were these problems create unforeseen problems which will manifest themselves years on down the line.

You agree with many of the sentiments of my (and others) posts with the state of Indian aviation - as well as the state of many other things in India. Like yourself, I am sure there are many professionals that are fully competent and legitimate. My point is that the money that Cathay should be spending in trying to attract the best, is being wasted in sifting through the bottom of the pile.

Your feeling that all these "200hr" pilots are in need of major airline jobs is just down-right scary. 200hr pilots in the seats are what leads to FOs that don't know which way to pull to make the houses get smaller. I don't care how motivated or sharp you are, at 200 hours you still have lots to learn that should be learned with fewer witnesses and participants than those on a 773ER.

I do take your point that if we are not happy with the direction of the airline then we should bring it up with management. That is very true and an on-going, slow process.

[Captain Dart]

For decades Cathay Pacific paid good money to attract experienced, quality crew, later with a smattering of cadets which integrated well into the 'big picture', and did little to dilute the average experience level. This policy led to an enviable safety record and a highly efficient Flight Operations Department that was a credit to this private-enterprise airline, which operates in all environments on the planet and is based in a storm- and typhoon-prone part of Asia.

Now in the name of short term bonuses, certain managers are monkeying around with this policy. There are persistent rumors of friction in management regarding crew numbers and experience levels.

Applicants are being lied to about time to command and possibility of basings. They will be living in sub-standard accommodation if and when they join, flying a busy and tiring international roster. For some six years they will be 'bonded' to the company and hold a useless P2X rating.

They will also be seen by many current crew as a threat to their own conditions of service.

DON'T SAY THAT YOU WEREN'T WARNED.

[cxorcist]

Dart,

Good post! That says it all really.

CXorcist

[smurf84]

My point is that the money that Cathay should be spending in trying to attract the best, is being wasted in sifting through the bottom of the pile.

Good point. Cathay did come to India to attract only the best. We really don't care if it is the desperate money-saving tactics being played by the airline or the India-bashing campaign led by a group of pilots currently employed with CX. Consider this, out of thousands of applicants, they conducted interviews only for 77 pilots. Now there has to be something good about them. A brief reminder : not all are expected to go beyond the first stage. For the record, a few of them come with 500+ and 1000+ hours flying experience. If you doubt the credibility of those pilots throughout your flying career, I reckon there will be turbulent times ahead. I believe CX wouldn't compromise on safety and standards. That remains to be seen - Oops!

Former Australian cricketer Greg Chappell recently made a statement on the Indian culture : "The Poms (British) taught them really well to keep their head down. For if someone was deemed to be responsible, they'd get punished."

I don't want to talk too much about the colonial rule and there is no point bragging about it. The past is the past and we're working towards a better future. But for all those who aren't aware - India was the richest civilization in the world. That was until the Poms came. The rest as they say is history which is now only worth a school textbook.

This goes out to some of the chaps who despise India/Indians. You may or may not have heard a lot about our country. Let me remind you that India is a developing nation. Not under-developed, which is how you refer it to. And it isn't surprising to learn that foreigners tend to lean more towards the dirty picture. Agreed, on a priority basis, that needs to be taken care of first. It is only a matter of time. But you're not willing to see the bigger picture - the fact that India is one of the biggest manufacturing hubs in the world. Hundreds of Multi-national companies set up R&D labs in India. Why? Even some of the parts of the turbine engine (General Electric) are manufactured in India. We have a vast Information Technology and telecom industry. India is home to some of the best tourist spots in the world. Foreigners come to India looking for jobs cause they can't find any in their countries. We also have a vast pool of highly qualified engineers, lawyers, doctors contributing to our economy and more importantly, yours! The nuts and bolts of coexistence are important if we want to take this forward. Put it this way and this is the truth - you and I cannot be without each other, no matter how much you try to hate us.

Chris Pratt, John Slosar and the entire crew would know better.

P.S. - Did I just get carried away and drift the entire thread? Enough said then.

[Cpt. Underpants]

smurf

You may be interested to know that when CX recruit outside of HKG - YVR, NYC, LHR etc, there is normally an hour assigned to each candidate, 8 candidates per day, 5 days, 40 in a week. BTW, that's a tough schedule for the interviewers.

So they traipse off to India and do 77 in a week? Really? Are you SURE it's quality CX are after, not quantity?

Please, you seem intelligent. It appears to me that you're being duped by the CX PR machine already.

[nitpicker330]

Some of the best Captains I ever flew with in my past life were x Indian Airlines. Very good operators.

I don't think its a racist thing.

Most guys will be annoyed by any Indian Pilots accepting a lower COS and thus giving CX even more ammunition to screw us. This attitude would ( and does ) extend to more than Indian nationals.

However until we grow some balls as a group nothing will change.

Same thing is going on in Qantas. ( Jetstar getting all the work on worse COS )

[smurf84]

So they traipse off to India and do 77 in a week? Really? Are you SURE it's quality CX are after, not quantity?

Correction. 77 pilots interviewed over a period of 10 days.Tough job for the recruitment team, but what are they paid for. Now I'm not very sure about the decisive Q graph (Quantity versus Quality) considering they had 10 days. Again, CX hasn't inked an agreement to recruit all the 77 pilots. Only the meritorious deserve to go to the next stage, followed by the next stage and the next stage.

Please, you seem intelligent. It appears to me that you're being duped by the CX PR machine already.

No Sir, I haven't been duped yet. Keeping in mind the views and opinions shared by others, the writing is on the wall. If I ever make it all the way to the observer's seat, I'm prepared to take the risk (out of no choice). Of course I earned it due to my diligent efforts. But the ball is in your court. I'm just the mere spectator.

I don't think its a racist thing.

Maybe it isn't. Maybe it is. During my training days in Australia, I knew a bunch of Indian trainee pilots (above average) who bore the brunt of unfriendly attitude and excessive dual hours by a couple of flying instructors. I fail to understand the outcome of their boorish behaviour towards Indian students. Sadism perhaps. I thought discipline mattered the most when it came to being a commercial pilot. Some flight schools down there completely forgot about the fact that their survival was solely due to the existence of Indian students.

Most guys will be annoyed by any Indian Pilots accepting a lower COS and thus giving CX even more ammunition to screw us. This attitude would ( and does ) extend to more than Indian nationals.

It would be stupid of us to bow down to the scathing remarks (made out of frustration) by the current pilots of Cathay Pacific. Recipe for disaster, if one were to turn down an offer of employment when thousands of pilots are unemployed in India, and with the double-dip, you never know.

For now, Carpe diem !

[nitpicker330]

Whatever floats your boat, BUT have a think how you would feel if a bunch of other nationals decided to come to India accepting lower conditions than you were on.....:hmm:

Even though your anger should be directed at the company you might still feel some resentment toward the individuals.

Please bear in mind that over the last 20 years there have been multiple attacks on the CX COS package causing quite a lot of officers to suffer delays in promotion or a loss of income. Don't expect us to welcome ANYONE accepting the current COS with open arms. :ok:

[smurf84]

Whatever floats your boat, BUT have a think how you would feel if a bunch of other nationals decided to come to India accepting lower conditions than you were on....

I hope many of you are aware there are hundreds of expat skippers working in India at the moment. I certainly don't have a problem with them. Earlier, there were thousands. There was never a brouhaha involving this issue. If I'm not mistaken, it is the DGCA that instructs the airlines to phase them out. Plus, there is and there will be no room for expat FOs in India.

Moreover, with the current salaries (roughly 3000 USD p.m for the FO and 8000 USD p.m for the Skipper) one can live a pretty good life in India. It can't get any lower than those figures. I have no complaints. It is only unfortunate that there aren't too many jobs in the local market which directly results in the condition of being desperate.

"The final proof of greatness lies in being able to endure criticism without resentment."

Elbert Hubbard

I have not the slightest feeling of resentment towards the company and the individuals here. This is just a forum where our views are shared and there may be a difference of opinion here on what is worthwhile and value for awareness about the company and its employees. Finally, I wish you luck in your fight against the system. You could be an inspiration for many of us in the near future.

[Oval3Holer]

nitpicker330, you said


Please bear in mind that over the last 20 years there have been multiple attacks on the CX COS package causing quite a lot of officers to suffer delays in promotion or a loss of income. Don't expect us to welcome ANYONE accepting the current COS with open arms. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Cathay pilots have no one except themselves to blame for lower conditions. Blaming the other guy is typical, though. To ostracize a pilot for accepting a job at certain pay when there is not a picket line to cross is hypocrisy.

[nitpicker330]

1/ I did say "until we grow some balls...."

2/ Have the Aussie expats in India accepted a crap COS
package? Indeed a worse COS than the locals?? NO

Anyway, you claim CX Pilots don't like Indians, I say it's not the nationality of the individual that is the problem.

[404 Titan]

smurf84
I hope many of you are aware there are hundreds of expat skippers working in India at the moment.
Yes we are aware of that. The difference is that Indian carriers needed experienced pilots to crew their massive expansion plans and that experience had to come from outside India, hence direct entry captains. For that experience though they had to pay accordingly, which only drove up T&C’s, not the other way around.
Moreover, with the current salaries (roughly 3000 USD p.m for the FO and 8000 USD p.m for the Skipper) one can live a pretty good life in India. It can't get any lower than those figures.
I hate to burst your bubble but that comment proves your naivety regarding the aviation industry. Airlines around the world have only just started to realise how much they can drive down T&C’s with the overwhelming use of green behind the ears inexperienced crews that we are jumping up and down about here. This dilution of experience has a very serious safety implication which unfortunately the bean counters running the airlines have a difficult time quantifying in their little bean counter world but when an airframe spears in, it will become quantifiable very quickly.

By way of interest how comfortably well do you think you can live in Hong Kong on the package being offered? Do you think your quality of living will be higher or lower than that in India working for an Indian carrier?

[Steve the Pirate]

404 Titan

For that experience though they had to pay accordingly, which only drove up T&C’s, not the other way around. I don't mean to appear flippant or contentious but do you happen to know if this hiring of expat DECs drove up the T & Cs for locally employed pilots as well?

STP

[Sqwak7700]

I've said all I wanted to say, but I must comment on this:

India is home to some of the best tourist spots in the world.

Really! I mean come on, really? Surely you jest. You need to get out more buddy, it sounds like you haven't traveled much.

[smurf84]

By way of interest how comfortably well do you think you can live in Hong Kong on the package being offered? Do you think your quality of living will be higher or lower than that in India working for an Indian carrier?

I am not able to foresee the way of living in Hong Kong with the current package being offered. I do not wish to at the moment. Pardon me. It isn't the path of ignorance I chose to take, but it is simply an inevitable choice, which many of you find it difficult to understand, considering the horrid situation of unemployed pilots in India.

I don't expect anyone to empathize with us.

I hate to burst your bubble but that comment proves your naivety regarding the aviation industry.

My comment harbours only the Indian aviation industry (not global). The bubble still remains.

This dilution of experience has a very serious safety implication which unfortunately the bean counters running the airlines have a difficult time quantifying in their little bean counter world but when an airframe spears in, it will become quantifiable very quickly.

How has Cathay's safety record been till date (with the dilution of experience)? Just an honest question.

2/ Have the Aussie expats in India accepted a crap COS
package? Indeed a worse COS than the locals?? NO

Here comes the 'N' word yet again. There are plenty of young Aussie pilots who are currently applying for Cathay's Second Officer programme. Why is that? I know three guys who must be on those seats by now. You talk about Eastern Europeans, Asians taking up the offer (in these times) without looking into the future which would be a direct threat to your CoS. Who's to blame?

I'm very sure none of you would have turned it down when there are absolutely no jobs in the local market. Forget the airline industry, when 3 flying schools shut down in Sydney (due to poor management and misuse of funds), and I'm not joking, I remember a Chief Pilot who used to earn 8000 AUD per month was desperately looking for a job and he finally got into a school that paid him 3500 AUD per month. Wasn't that a decision made in unavoidable circumstances? The same applies to us. Infact, slightly better.

Let me say this again for one last time. If this needs to be sorted out, it's either your way (fight) or the highway (quit).

[smurf84]

Really! I mean come on, really? Surely you jest. You need to get out more buddy, it sounds like you haven't traveled much.

Yes, really. I may not have been to the Caribbean or Europe. I definitely know Australia is a beautiful country. But can you please tell me why millions of tourists from all over the world come to India every year? Mind you, people from US and UK top the list.

Since you're much into media reports and sources from the internet, why don't you go to this link and see for yourself. Like I said before, please try to get the bigger picture and quit complaining about our country. We, as international students, face a lot of problems in your country. We are always the victims of the dreaded 'R' word. But we tend to move on and look at the bigger picture.

Tourism in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_India)

P.S. - I'm sure Jimmy Wales and the team picked this up from reliable sources.

[tipsy.skipsy]

... everyone who wishes to accept the contract with CX as an SO .. will only do so after considering all whats involved.

there are exceptions ... some people might be ignorant or shortsighted about the future , living conditions on lantau etc ... but at the end of the day if they are not happy with what they have signed up for they are not chained to a big shiny jet ... they are free to quit ( subject to contract conditions )

and then the question remains .. of people who make an informed decision...
like me , personally

1) i am happy with the pay and conditions
2) i don't mind the average to poor lifestyle
3) i don't have a family to take care of at the moment
4) i don't want a family for the next 5 years
5) i love hong kong food
6) i don't mind if my lifespan is shortened because of pollution
7) matchbox living feels just like home.
8) i want to get into a career airline .. early in my life
9) Id rather be employed than sit at home and watch porn

above all

10) I love to fly ------ I love to fly in a big shiny jet even more :}

i really don't care of what you current cx employees think of people who are happy to accept the current deal.

[cxorcist]

Smurf,

If you get here and after a few years at CX, all these comments you are reading (and in some cases vigorously opposing) will make sense. We see this all the time with new joiners who seem to have it all figured out before they join only to realize that many of the "haters" on Pprune were right all along.

You are obviously an intelligent young man who may very well do a nice job here, but do you really think you have enough perspective at age 21 to refute what all these experienced guys are writing? I know if I could go back and be 21 again, I would do a lot more seeking good advice and listening with a lot less talking and thinking I could figure it all out on my own. Reference Prov 11:14.

Cxorcist

[flyhardmo]

I am not able to foresee the way of living in Hong Kong with the current package being offered.
Yes you are. Its called research. You brag about your technology advanced society so you should be proficient enough to find out exactly what your living conditions will be.

But can you please tell me why millions of tourists from all over the world come to India every year?
Because its cheap

I don't want to talk too much about the colonial rule and there is no point bragging about it. The past is the past and we're working towards a better future
You obviously haven't learnt anything from history because you are allowing the colonials to screw you over once again. You can suger coat it and justify your actions all you want and since you trust the words of John Slosar so much, the truth will always be the truth no matter what you believe or words to that effect.

10) I love to fly ------ I love to fly in a big shiny jet even more
I really don't care of what you current cx employees think of people who are happy to accept the current deal

You won't be flying anything as an S/O so don't even bring that bullsh!t into the equation. If you don't care that's fine but don't ever let me catch you whinging because you screwed yourself over.

To all prospective S/O's regardless of nationality (yes Aussies,canucks, Brits yanks, euro's, Africans etc). if you think you deserve to occupy a seat on jet why do you believe you deserve to get paid Alot less than everyone else? :=

[nitpicker330]

Shiny Jet syndrome is alive and well all over the world and don't Managers just love to exploit it!!!

p.s. The honeymoon phase is quite short in the Harbour city, be warned.:ok:

[smurf84]

flyhardmo

Yes you are. Its called research. You brag about your technology advanced society so you should be proficient enough to find out exactly what your living conditions will be.

I'm doing my fair bit of research on the way of living with the help of my sources in Hong Kong. Whether I like it or not, is my headache. FYI, I haven't got the offer, still have a long way to go. Yet again, if you are so bothered about this issue, why aren't you using your resources to go against the management? I know it is easy for me to say it from my home, but I'm sure all of you with so much experience can find your way out of this mess. It is unfair to tell us 'Not to join the airline, go live somewhere else'. I can't be a victim of pessimism (baseless or not).

Because its cheap (referring to tourism in India)

Of course it's cheap. Is that the only reason why tourists prefer to come to India? I'm sorry, you can do better than that. Dirt is cheap. Would you still eat it? If you're living in Hong Kong, you're still breathing it right now out of no choice (else you can ignore my comment).

You obviously haven't learnt anything from history because you are allowing the colonials to screw you over once again.

I have and I am ready to fight along with others against any system that puts our glorified profession at peril (rather than pummeling the aspirations of young pilots). Before you draw us into the picture, how does it feel that the very same colonials are screwing you over. I find it amusing.

To all prospective S/O's regardless of nationality (yes Aussies,canucks, Brits yanks, euro's, Africans etc). if you think you deserve to occupy a seat on jet why do you believe you deserve to get paid Alot less than everyone else?

To all the current skippers and F/Os regardless of nationality - If you think you deserve to remain on that big seat and deserve to get paid a lot more than everyone else - again, again and again....fight for your rights !

cxorcist

If you get here and after a few years at CX, all these comments you are reading (and in some cases vigorously opposing) will make sense. We see this all the time with new joiners who seem to have it all figured out before they join only to realize that many of the "haters" on Pprune were right all along.

I couldn't agree with you more. Make no mistake, I have never mentioned in any of my posts that all the criticism made by the current pilots on this thread and others not making sense at all. I am young and I get to learn a lot from the CX pilots in this interesting debate.

[nitpicker330]

Smurf84

Whilst not trying to drag Nationalities into the equation I cannot help but direct your attention to another Thread which does seem to have a recurring theme!!

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/479776-indian-airlines-tail-strike.html

Over stretched system perhaps? The holes in the Swiss Cheese seem to line up more over there!!

[smurf84]

Yes, I did follow the news on that incident.

An apparent miscalculation by the pilots led to the aircraft not touching down at the correct angle, leading to the tail strike.

And the news reporter was actually seated right next to the commander when a portion of the tail struck the ground?

We'll see what the report says.

You might want to be concerned about Jetstar pilots fumbling with incorrect flap settings, power calculation mistakes prior to take off.

I vaguely remember a Qantas flight (Sydney to Melbourne) having a tail strike in 2010 (may or may not be due to gusty conditions) and a few more incidents I've seen on Channel 9 and ABC during my stay in Australia. I'm just not willing to have a debate with regard to this matter.

Let's not get into all this now. We can go on forever. I've learned a lot from this thread.

[Captain Dart]

Jeeze Louise, how many long-winded and multitudinous posts from Smurf 84 do we have to endure :ugh:?

Is he really coming to Cathay Pacific? It's going to be a long night over the Pacific with this boy...(or is he a management stooge)?

[schweizer2]

I'll keep my sentences short if the contract was to be available for my signature :E

[smurf84]

Ha! You need not bear the brunt of my idle ramblings anymore. :)

[Spitfire88]

@nitpicker 330
Whatever floats your boat, BUT have a think how you would feel if a bunch of other nationals decided to come to India accepting lower conditions than you were on.....

Even though your anger should be directed at the company you might still feel some resentment toward the individuals.

This comming from a Australian whos working for a HK airline??

Please bear in mind that over the last 20 years there have been multiple attacks on the CX COS package causing quite a lot of officers to suffer delays in promotion or a loss of income. Don't expect us to welcome ANYONE accepting the current COS with open arms.
This has happened because of little or insignificant opposition from the unions and because of market conditions. To give this as a reason to hate new comers is wrong. Besides this is the first CX recruitment in India wt less than 100 pilots called for the initial. Hardly counts for indians stealing jobs or affecting salary trends...

[tipsy.skipsy]

today you hire 10 , next year there will be 100 , by the time you old fellas know it - the best and brightest of the indian skies will be hopping puddles in a cx jet and and the skies of hong kong will smell of curry fart. :}

but hey .. still safety is our number 1 priority ... so we at qantas believe .. racism and appalling customer service is the way forward. :}

[404 Titan]

Spitfire88
This comming from a Australian whos working for a HK airline??
There is a fundamental flaw in your argument here. India has copious amounts of unemployed pilots. Hong Kong doesn’t. Infact Hong Kong has a huge shortage of pilots.
This has happened because of little or insignificant opposition from the unions and because of market conditions.
Again another wet behind the ears wannabe who hasn’t a clue what he/she is talking about. How about you tell us what the unions here should do about the inferior T&C’s being offered to people like you. Before you answer that question I suggest you do some serious research into Hong Kong labour laws and the implication to union leaders and members for taking unprotected industrial action, i.e. not approved by your employer.

Do you know what the market conditions are that you speak of? CX have manipulated market forces by dramatically lowering the experience levels required to apply. They have deliberately compromised safety for the almighty dollar and people like you are accomplices to this degradation in safety levels. First they offered this pathetic deal to starry eyed wannabes from the UK, Aus, NZ, Can and the US. When it became obvious that there weren’t enough suitable suckers in these countries they are now praying on the suckers in India. Thank god all the successful applicants in Pakistan saw this package for what it really is, indentured slave labour and turned it down. :ugh::yuk:

[robin.pereira]

First they offered this pathetic deal to starry eyed wannabes from the UK, Aus, NZ, Can and the US.

are you one of them?

if yes (chuckles).

If not, why are you still working with CX?

like smurf84 mentioned, why don't you have the gall to walk out <assuming you are working with CX> when you're not able to help yourself. we are not here to make things easier for you by not taking up this offer.

[AQIS Boigu]

It looks like CX managers are in Pakistan this week...

[robin.pereira]

and the skies of hong kong will smell of curry fart.

tipsy.skipsy - that's fine as long as the very same skies don't smell of vegemite.

:)

[404 Titan]

robin.pereira
are you one of them?
No.
If not, why are you still working with CX?
You really are dopy idiot aren’t you? People like me are jumping up and down about the conditions being offered because, apart from safety implications of almost all the new recruits over the last several years having ˂250 hours, all we want is for you to have the same T&C’s we have.
like smurf84 mentioned, why don't you have the gall to walk out <assuming you are working with CX> when you're not able to help yourself. we are not here to make things easier for you by not taking up this offer.
Like I said to Spitfire88, I suggest you do some research into Hong Kong labour laws before you make such an uninformed comment about current CX pilots. So you are under no misconception or confusion, for any CX pilot to just walk as you have suggested, would be a breach of contract and leave them open to law suites.

What your comments and others of your like are really alluding to is that you want us to do all the work and take all the risk so you can have a job here.

[robin.pereira]

You really are dopy idiot aren’t you?

you should be asking yourself whether you're one. you people keep mentioning the same thing again and again. you are also kind enough to say that you want us to get the same T&Cs.

okay so what do you suggest we do? i can only imagine if CX would place the offer letter right in front of me - and I say " hang on, I'm turning this down, since there aren't any jobs in India for low-timers and also because i'm not happy with the T&Cs, and so are the pilots currently in CX who aren't happy with the current T&Cs either and i want to sgo back home, watch Tv all day, warm up my couch"?????? boom! there goes my job in thin air. maybe i'll be doing you a favour. but what do i lose - an airline job i've been waiting for the past 1-2 years.

I suggest you do some research into Hong Kong labour laws before you make such an uninformed comment about current CX pilots. So you are under no misconception or confusion, for any CX pilot to just walk as you have suggested, would be a breach of contract and leave them open to law suites.

so that is your problem? fear of breach of contract and strict labour laws. what happened? u didn't see that coming, did you?. may i ask what were you doing your research on all this while - how to stop indian pilots from joining CX? with all due respect Sir, you are totally helpless, running out of options and trying to pull us into your blame game and telling us what to do and what not to do. it isn't going to work that way, if you thought we were vulnerable to your opinions. definitely not a good idea.

[boxjockey]

Robin,

Pure AWESOMENESS!!! You are the FUTURE!!!! ...........

box (snoring)

[3rd Floor]

@Robin

you should be asking yourself whether you're one.You are the dopy fool robin :ugh:

you people keep mentioning the same thing again and again.I wonder why that is? Maybe because YOU don't listen!! :ugh:

but what do i lose - an airline job i've been waiting for the past 1-2 years. Typical SJS response. Go fly for Spice Jet first and hopefully you'll change your mind about CX. Who knows, you might join CX under better terms and conditions

you are totally helpless, running out of options and trying to pull us into your blame game and telling us what to do and what not to do.Pull your head in fool!!! We all don't want to be listening to you whining in the future about your terms and conditions that you signed to.

The only reason CX is interviewing in India is because they are desperate!! It's as simple as that. :=

[broadband circuit]

As previously posted by myself, the argument is not about your nationality, it's about your experience. All this stuff about giving Indian pilots a hard time is just smoke & mirrors.

The reality is that in terms of experience, they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Here's a few gems to prove my point:

First they offered this pathetic deal to starry eyed wannabes from the UK, Aus, NZ, Can and the US

Sorry, India isn't Robinson Crusoe when it comes to starry eyed, ultra low experience pilots. They have them everywhere. Put simply, in the past, they didn't meet the min requirements for an interview at CX. It's about experience, not nationality.

an airline job i've been waiting for the past 1-2 years

Most pilots at CX now, and in the past, waited a hell of a lot longer than 1-2 years for their airline job, either serving in a military uniform, or scraping their way through GA into a commuter airline, in a bid to meet the min requirements. That took an absolute minimum of 7 years, usually 10. Once again, it's about experience, not nationality.

They havent called any1 from India with less than 250 hrs

In the past, 250 hrs would not have got you an interview, regardless of nationality. The fact that they are even considering bare minimum 250 hr guys demonstrates that anyone with experience sees the new contract for what it is. Bare minimum experience is the same whether you're Indian, Aussie or Canadian. You're still bare minimum, and in the past would not have been considered for an interview at CX.

So stop this "you're an ignorant bunch of Indian bashers" rubbish. It's not about your nationality, it's about your experience (or lack thereof)

[flyhardmo]

Also u forget cx is a business, If u cant get similar skilled or better for a cheaper amount, theyd be stupid not to.

And you would be stupid to encourage it. You are basically saying its ok to be payed less and have a tougher life because cx is a business.

We would love better terms, but if not and manageable we'll settle.

the main reason cx are lowering T&C's is because of the undercutting the undercuttters attitude that you possess and justify. :ugh:

Once again this is aimed at anyone stupid enough to accept these conditions

[ckalli]

this has become quite a senseless argument ..

all the senior pilots posting.. you guys had better t&c because u earned it! im sure all of u joined with more than 250hrs. therefore better terms.

todays recruitment is for 250-1500hrs. you think a fresher at 250 hrs has options? that too in india? people have been waiting for 3-4yrs for a job. and cx is capitalizing on that.

what ever bull**** offer they hand out.. guys have no choice. its no longer about terms and conditions.. its about flying! its about surviving.

im sure no cadet with 200hrs offered a job with cx will even worry about the terms. all he/she sees is a break! an opportunity to start their career; with a good airline, flying wide body jets! sounds like a pretty good deal to me!

maybe like you all said later on it might not seem as good. but then again... at that time there were no other options.

its take whats offered. or do nothing.

[slowjet]

Ooooooh, love all this. And to think, good mate of mine , FAILED to get into Cx way back in 1978, because they thought he was an I N D I A N !!!
.........................er, and the same guy, told a really black looking Massai Warior type that he would not get into CX...ER, beacause he was..BLACK, and the Massai failed the initial interview............... Luv it." On behalf of Captain Ranjit Banjit& the crew!"..........................Turn in your grave Laurie !!.................It IS going to happen !
& the

[uspilot]

flying wide body jets! sounds like a pretty good deal to me

you get more action flying flight simulator at home on your PC than being a SO...YOU ARE NOT A PILOT....:ugh:

But really...who promised you guys a job when you signed up to become a pilot...you guys are starting to sound like it's owed to you...:=

[Cpt. Underpants]

slowjet

You are the twisted racist. Leave the race card at home. There are many people of color in Cathay already, you're not breaking any mould.

They didn't come with the baggage you clearly have.

Oh, AND I suspect they're a lot more capable than you'll ever be.

[404 Titan]

Spitfire88

Let me put it in simpler terms so your winnie little pea brain can understand. You think you’re hard done by because you can’t get a job in India with 250 hours where there are allegedly 6000 unemployed pilots. India isn’t alone here my friend. Europe reportedly has about 8000 unemployed pilots and the USA 20000+. It would be very interesting to see India open its aviation labour market for any foreign pilot with ≥250 hours. That would put the cat amongst the pigeons with you bunch of spoilt Indian brats who thinks the world owes them a living. My guess is you’re probably from a well off middle to upper class Indian family, your parents sent you to Australia, New Zealand or the USA and paid for your flying training. You probably haven’t worked a real job in your life and like your buddy robin.pereira, who claims that he sits on the couch watching TV all day if he can’t fly, my guess is you do the same. You probably still live at home with mummy and daddy. It is clear from your posts though that you have a severely inflated opinion of your own self importance. Get over yourself buddy. The world owes you nothing and if you were stupid enough to be fooled by the Indian Aviation bubble over the last 5-10 years, that is your fault. If, god forbid you actually make it to CX and you come here with the attitude you have, i.e. self importance and racial intolerance, you’re in for a very rude shock.

[boxjockey]

Very well said 404. It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with experience. There has been a consistent decline in experience levels entering this airline for many, many years. I can include myself in that equation, as I'm sure I had less experience that some of my predecessors. The thing is, there needs to be a minimum level of experience in order to do this job safely, and efficiently. I am a big believer in experience. I think it is what you draw on when things turn pear-shaped. I don't believe we are enhancing our safety culture if ALL of our current recruits are of the same experience levels that are being described in this thread. Eventually all of the holes in the swiss cheese will line up, and then what is the inexperienced crew going to rely on? Simply my opinion, but one I believe is shared by many of my colleagues, as well as the flying public, I would imagine.

box

[Oval3Holer]

boxjockey:

I am a big believer in experience. I think it is what you draw on when things turn pear-shaped.

Pear-shaped? Your username shows you to be in the U.S. Are you a transplant or have you been brainwashed into talking like THEM?

[crewsunite]

Flight Ops, meanwhile, has been sounding out potential pilot recruits in India and Pakistan and will launch recruitment ads soon in countries such as Singapore and Malaysia.

:eek:

CX have finally reached a dead-end!

I hope those that those whom actually carry out the interviews have there heads on straight!

A Bowl of "juicy ripe fruit" is easily spoilt by one bad apple!

I know that's exactly the point of the guys at the top " I.e Changing the culture of the work force yet again"

But Recruiters & then T&C etc that are pilots - Should be proud to filter out the bad ones please, otherwise we're heading slowly downhill with gathering speed!
:ugh:

[boxjockey]

Oval,

Please tell me who THEY are? And yes, I am a transplant. :eek:

box

[flyingkiwi]

you will be pleased to hear that all the line pilots that were involved in recruitment have been replaced by managment and ground interviewers apparently the pilots were demanding too high a standard.

[Forward CofG]

At least we won't have to go to Nathan Rd to find a fake Rolex watch or a cheap suit.
Maybe the new recruits will also know where to get a good curry. I hate getting harassed when going into Chungking mansion.

[crewsunite]

Oh - dear no I did not realize.
whats next STC have there hands tied by management and they cannot fail their line check or an PC either!

:\

[cxorcist]

I think I'm going to be sick! Must have had a bad curry. Off to throw up... ("if at all required")

[nitpicker330]

So how do you Indians feel knowing CX went to Pakistan first!!

Doh:D

[404 Titan]

shivamjoshi

Firstly there are close to 30000 unemployed pilots in Europe and the US combined. Secondly 250 hours isn’t experienced. It is, to put it bluntly extremely inexperienced. Indian applicants may be desperate, but desperation won’t get you the job here sunshine, even with management pilots doing the interviews.

CX never has spent limitless amounts on wages. They have always been as tight as a fishes ar*e. Now they are compromising safety to be even tighter.

As for the rest of your dribble, if you can list for me, a generic airlines total operating costs and break it down in percentage order, then I will have a discussion regarding why some airlines operate on wafer thin margins.

Anyway your whole post is a bit rich for someone who aspires to become an expat pilot but hates expat pilots in India. As limited as your previous posts are you are clearly a racist idiot. If you come here with that attitude sunshine, I can assure you , you will be ripped a new ar*ehole.:yuk:

Recently i went to get my class 1 med done and i was shocked to count 19 people besides me who had come for the same purpose as i had. I was expecting people to abandon their CPL plans in a big way. But i am disappointed. Lets hope the government acts tough and throws out expats.

[Harbour Dweller]

Why India is not a superpower

Amrit Dhillon

March 15, 2012



http://images.smh.com.au/2012/03/14/3130547/ipad-art-wide-india-slums-420x0.jpg


'It hurts the pride of Indians to be reminded of the country's poverty. But the existence of poverty itself does not hurt their pride.'


Rich Indians have forgotten the country cannot meet the basic needs of poor people.

Rich Indians hallucinating about India becoming a superpower have had delivered a much-needed thump on the head courtesy of a study by the London School of Economics, which found that it's doubtful if the country can ever become a superpower.


The whole notion that India is an ''emerging superpower'' has always been ridiculous and whoever first mooted the idea - Bill Clinton or George Bush - during the excess of goodwill that invariably accompanies a state visit, should have been bundled off to a laboratory to have his brain dissected to locate the precise site of the raving lunacy.


Even more preposterous has been the uncritical alacrity with which rich Indians embraced the notion when all they have to do is drive a few kilometres outside the big cities to rural India for a flashback to the 18th century or, even closer to home, to a nearby slum to see disease, hunger and misery that beggars belief.


The LSE study by nine India experts concludes that, despite ''impressive'' achievements, India is unlikely to become a superpower for many reasons including "the increasing gap between the rich and the poor; the trivialisation of the media; the unsustainability, in an environmental sense, of present patterns of resource consumption; the instability and policy incoherence caused by multi-party coalition governments''.


The study adds: "India still faces major developmental challenges. The still-entrenched divisions of caste structure are being compounded by the emergence of new inequalities of wealth stemming from India's economic success.''


These inequalities take your breath away. While the rich consume luxury goods and the middle class buys fancy cars and gadgets and holidays in Bangkok, they blind themselves to the reality for 700 million or so immiserated Indians.



In their vainglorious dinner-table talk about ''superpower'' status, they forget that a country that cannot meet a poor person's most basic needs - enough food, clean drinking water, and electricity - has no business aspiring to superpower status.


One has always heard that Indians have traditionally lacked a certain respect for the facts but this wilful disregard of reality is disturbing. Affluent Indians have bought the superpower fantasy not just because of a contempt for the facts, but from pride and vanity and a tendency to get all puffed up the moment the country manages any achievement.


So an obscure international award for some Indian film, a bronze medal in a sport that no one watches, an Indian company's takeover of a foreign company, or an Indian kid topping a maths exam in the US, are all trumpeted as evidence that India has conquered the world.


This is the reality: about 400 million Indians have no electricity; India has more mobile phones than toilets; millions of children are not in school; most cities have no sewage treatment systems; no major city has a continuous water supply; disease is rampant; infrastructure is pitiful; and a UNICEF report released this month says there is acute malnutrition and hunger among the urban poor, with 54 per cent more infants dying from among the urban poor than from the urban non-poor. Another UNICEF report found that 93 million Indians live in urban slums, on pavements and construction sites.


Yet should anyone plead that the poor have been left behind they will be subject to heated criticism. It hurts the pride of Indians to be reminded of the country's poverty. But the existence of poverty itself does not hurt their pride.
Economic growth rates of about 8-9 per cent over the past few years have been justifiably praiseworthy. But the benefits of this growth have been confined to the middle class and the rich.


The poor still do not have homes, basic sanitation, decent schools or nutritious food. As a young girl in American author Katherine Boo's much-acclaimed new book Behind the Beautiful Forevers, about life in a Mumbai slum, says: "We try so many things but the world doesn't move in our favour."


Middle-class Indians need to read Boo's book about life in a rat-infested hovel, near a sewage lake, with rampant dengue fever, malaria and tuberculosis, with scraps for meals, a single toilet for 100 families and then try claiming that India is becoming a superpower. There are many criteria for defining a superpower, but for India an extra one should be added. Let no one utter the world ''superpower'' till every Indian family has a toilet in their home.


Amrit Dhillon is a freelance journalist based in New Delhi.


Whilst the article itself is a little off the topic it clearly points out the attitude of some our Indian iCadet applicants who come from a rather well off background.


Shivamjoshi is described perfectly by the author, one of his own countrymen.



"One has always heard that Indians have traditionally lacked a certain respect for the facts but this wilful disregard of reality is disturbing. Affluent Indians have bought the superpower fantasy not just because of a contempt for the facts, but from pride and vanity and a tendency to get all puffed up the moment the country manages any achievement."

[Primed]

Lack of experience can be overcome by high IQ and hard work. All these so called experts that had only flown small planes before going to Cathay just got lucky that they had the necessary hours to apply at the time. Now that all can apply there will be a larger pool to choose from and they can get candidates with higher IQ which is most important.

[SloppyJoe]

I hate to break it to you, although as you both have such high IQ's I am surprised you don't know this, a high IQ is not the most important thing. Experience is number one when it comes to being a safe pilot.

Lack of experience can be overcome by high IQ and hard work. All these so called experts that had only flown small planes before going to Cathay

Are you serious or is this a wind up.

[sarge75]

Anyone with a high IQ wouldn't consider this offer.

Where as those that think they have a high IQ......

[Primed]

It should be considered that possibly the company is looking to increase the general IQ level amongst the pilot group by hiring more Indian educated pilots. Do not be too surprised if we are able to bring many more fresh new ideas to to the cockpit!

[Kenny]

So let me get this straight......

You wannabe muppets are proud that Indians will work for less than everyone else and because CX is offering less, that it's a perfectly justifiable proposition?

Unbelievable!!

Gents, we are all farked in the expat world.


BTW, All you wannabe's talk about how a high IQ is a requirement to be an able pilot. Actually it's common sense and the two don't necessarily go hand in hand; I've come across some extremely intelligent individuals, who thought because they were book smart, they would make able pilots. They weren't.

[3rd Floor]

@ Primed

Lack of experience can be overcome by high IQ and hard work. All these so called experts that had only flown small planes before going to Cathay just got lucky that they had the necessary hours to apply at the time. Now that all can apply there will be a larger pool to choose from and they can get candidates with higher IQ which is most important. How is your statement possible when real line pilots were taken off the interview selection panel as they weren't recommending any of the applicants?!! IE: the inexperienced (low hour) iCadets didn't meet the requirements. Experience is not something you can rote learn from a book!!

Yet again... this is someone from CX recruitment or management :ugh:

A total windup!! :=


@shivamjoshi

First of all, my apologies for that hateful comment that i had posted on another forum. It is hard to hold back when people attack your country. I was unable to ignore the provocations on that forum.Your apology is not accepted. You have already 'burnt your bridges'... you hypocrite!!

[Primed]

3rd floor and sloppy Joe,

Surely you will want to defend your position and pride however you must learn to look truth in the eye!

[Primed]

It is well known that flying the big airliners is all about flying the numbers as they say. Coming from a population where mathematics is a strength is no coincidence!

[Kenny]

It is well known that flying the big airliners is all about flying the numbers as they say

It is, is it? And you know this to be true because you've been flying for how long?

Exactly what are you going to do when you have to think on your feet because the numbers don't fit a particular situation?

This like listening to Gen Y'ers on steroids, who've overdosed on SJS!

[Primed]

Kenny,

Please do not be insulted by my comments. To answer your question however, high IQ and strength in mathematics show that person could indeed think on their feet. The ability to fly the numbers well should preclude getting into that situation in the first place LOL!!

[sarge75]

Funny, when I taught Math in India, the pass mark was 30% :}

Surely you jokers are not serious about your points about IQs.

Surely you are not that stupid

[Kenny]

To answer your question however, high IQ and strength in mathematics show that person could indeed think on their feet. The ability to fly the numbers well should preclude getting into that situation in the first place LOL!!

You really believe that don't you? Boy, are you lot in for a rude awakening.

What I can't work out is if this comes from an overwhelming sense of arrogance, immaturity, naivety or just plain stupidity........

[Primed]

Sarge,

Why not go and work for Quantas air?

[sarge75]

Quantas air?

Tell us about that high IQ of yours....

As for me, I fly in country Australia building my hours and experience, have about 1800 hours and only now starting of thinking of applying for airlines, though feel I need another 700 hours of experience till I'd be ready.

I don't have a sense of entitlement and am working hard to get where I would like to be.

[Kasompe]

Oh god, is THIS what our esteemed Directors have reduced Cathay Pacific Airways to? And they dare walk through the Street behaving as though any of us owed them any respect? And then the one day PS..... Wow, these guys plumb new depths every day....:yuk:

[raven11]

Everyone in aviation knows that the most dangerous pilot is the one with 500 hours. Five hundred hours is a point where, too often, a combination of arrogance and stupidity outweigh good judgement....and bad decisions are made.

Speaking from 40 years of flying, with an accumulated 25,000 flying hours, here's what I think makes a great pilot:

EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE!!!

You can't become a Doctor, a Lawyer, or even a formula-one driver with only a high IQ, and you can't become a pilot either. Intelligence is the starting point.....

An intelligent young wannabe should then attend and graduate from an excellent flying school (air force or recognized aviation college preferred).

A job is then attained where skills are honed and experience is gained. Then the better and more experienced one becomes, the more responsibility he/she takes on, flying bigger and bigger airplanes, carrying more and more passengers. An ATPL license from a first world country is then attained.

At this point if the young wannabe should end up upside down on a dark and dirty night he/she would have a clue on how to recover.

This prevents the rest of us in the industry from having to go into the simulator and practice stall recoveries (STALL RECOVERIES) because on several occasions an "intelligent" young wannabe, with poor training and no experience, couldn't recognize a stall and couldn't recover from it before disaster struck.....

A good pilot becomes a good pilot after years of poling around the sky making decisions and judgements, and then observing the outcome. Most times, things will work out nicely and soft touchdowns will ensue. But there will be other times when a decision will be regretted. Over the years, yes YEARS, as one hones their piloting skills, experience and understanding expand, and decisions become better and better.

Only then is one qualified to apply to an airline as an experienced pilot. Until that time he/she remains anything but qualified.

The accident statistics are there for all to study and observe. They speak for themselves.

[cxorcist]

Good post Raven!

To put it another way, you don't know what you don't know. Most cannot appreciate experience until they have some for themselves such that they have witnessed the difference it makes. It takes proper and unusual parental upbringing to accept this principle on blind faith.

I sense that most of our Indian commentators come from the upper wrung of the caste system which lends itself towards a sense of entitlement and looking down upon others. Both seem relevant to the general attitude we are reading in these posts. They disparage the system which produced decades of exceptional safety at CX while simultaneously believing themselves worthy of joining it without proper experience.

Make no mistake! Today's iCadets are nothing other than a byproduct of corporate greed which is willing to leverage flight safety for the smallest increases in profit margins. This error will manifest itself for decades to come, eventually contributing to a worst case scenario.

I really hope our C&Ters do their job properly before signing these guys to the line. Every new SO should be safe with the worst RFO in the company. Every JFO should be safe with the weakest captain on the fleet. That should be the standard. Is it???

[IFB]

First off I need to say that I have no time for racism and some of the comments on this thread have been at best unpleasant. That said this thread, as has been stated, is about experience or rather the lack of it with the majority of replies reflecting that.

Primed

Your comments about IQ and maths would suggest you do pretty well in both areas. Sadly though in my opinion your analysis that these attributes will make for a good pilot are fundamentally wrong. The RAF would also agree with me. I was an instructor with the RAF and I remember one of my students who was chopped happened to be a maths grad with a Mensa IQ. One of the reasons for his departure was over confidence! High IQ and great maths ability does not = good pilot material just as having no degree and an average IQ does not = poor pilot material. Your comments on the subject combined with your lack of experience would suggest that you also are quite possibly over confident. That makes for a lethal mix and thus the fact that you feel somehow ready and deserving of a seat on the flt deck of any size pax jet fills me with real concern.


shivamjoshi

[QUOTEIndians have the propensity to work for lesser wages[/QUOTE]

If you think that is acceptable then you betray yourself and other indians.

Would you put your family on a pax jet if the CN said on his welcoming address “All the other pilots in this airline get paid more than me but as an Indian I do not feel that I am worth what they are being paid”? By the way we do have Indians on the flt deck in CX already do you think they should take a pay cut because they are Indian?

The difference between you and those that have already joined on the icadet scheme is that you believe you deserve less than your British/Aussie/NZ/HK/etc counterparts. They on the other hand have accepted their lower conditions of service, but when talking to them it is obvious they do not believe they are worth less.

They like you are being exploited by CX. Unlike the vast majority of them however, you seem to believe that is fair.

[IFB]

shivamjoshi


[QUOTE]And since you are not jumping types, your learning is more specific to a single set of systems. In fact freshers becoming SO(s) is not nearly as bad as them becoming FO(s)/QUOTE]

That quote alone proves that you have not done any research into what your career progression would be.

So, you are not prepared to research the job you are going for, but you are prepared to lecture very experienced crews who cut their teeth in some of the most dangerous flying jobs this industry has to offer as to why you are deserving of a seat on a pax flt deck. Statistics say that with 250hrs there is a very good chance that even in a minor crisis you are likely to be a liability rather than an asset. You need to address your overconfidence and quickly. By the way CX never has let and for the sake of our pax I hope never will allow “Freshers to become FO’s"

God help us all if it really is true that the regular interviewers have been replaced. Some of the arrogance shown here is truly scary.

[CokeZero]

Off to Nigeria next and then Ivory Coast for some more recruiting. Cat E scales coming it. No housing, no schooling, you pay the company and even then the company will say that it's too much for them to afford.

[climbout]

More than 12 year with CX: My apologies for most of the comments made here - racialistic and not acceptable at all - it's a shame!! What's the issue if young pilots from abroad - from whatever country and background, send an application to CX? And, btw, not all the 25 000 hours pilots here are great aviatiors - sometimes far away.. experience is one parameter of many when it comes to select the 'right' people. And again: CX sets the standards and it's there responsibilty to identify the skilled ones and offer them a contract.This thread shows quite clearly the IQ level of some participants..

[Flap10]

For you guys to think that these low time Indian pilots will make the airline unsafe.... get over your arrogant selves. Same was being said of the cadet program when it started, but how many cadet captains do we now have flying your families around. What makes you think that these Indian pilots aren't capable of being good pilots? You post as though they are joining DEC with 250 hours :ugh::ugh:.... They will rise through the ranks same way as a cadet did, and by the time they get the left seat they will be more than ready with plenty of experience under their belt.

[Primed]

Cathay management may also be looking for candidates who are financially capable to make the current package work in hong kong. It is quite apparent that western candidates are from countries that teach the type of financial advice that caused the recent economic crisis. Why not look to a country that is well known for its ability to create new opportunities where others cannot see them. :ok:

[cxorcist]

Well Primed, that is a very creative way of putting lipstick on a pig! Put another way CX might be saying, "Only come work here if you already have money because we are not going to pay you much." Isn't that what non-profits say? The only difference being that this company makes billions of Hong Kong Dollars every year. Inexcusable! Unless of course a bunch of idiots actually take the deal. Pull your heads out young men...

[Cpt. Underpants]

The major aspect of this whole issue - Pakistanis, Indians or Côte Ivöirians aside - is that at very time the FAA, the most experienced (and innovative) regulating authority worldwide is RAISING experience levels for airline pilot entrants, Cathay, in it's infinite wisdom, is LOWERING them.

Make no mistake, these muppets that CX is successfully luring into these seats with vague promises of accelerated upgrade times and shiny new jets, are only a dodgy meal or a faulty valve away from making life altering decisions.

This is going to end badly, and we're allowing all the pieces of this impending tragedy to fall into place. Our pleas for sanity are being drowned out by the ring of the cash register. Time to blow the whistle, gents, and make the public aware of what's about to happen. It's a real shame the media in HKG is owned by our masters.

We are all collectively responsible when the day comes to explain to 300 grieving families why good men chose to do nothing...

[sony]

The FAA is also implementing rest rules that are far better for reducing fatigue problems, while "some other" authorities are doing just about the opposite.

[IFB]

Primed

Of course CX management are looking for candidates who think they can make the package work. Unlike you, they are not totally devoid of common sense. (I don’t care how big your IQ is you seem to have no common sense whatsoever) Why do you think the majority of new candidates are young and single? CX know that to live in HK you guys will rent together and thus for a few years the illusion that the deal is OK will just about hold. The problem will come when you want a family only then will the penny drop and will you realise just how poorly placed you are. Of course as you have said you think you will see opportunity where others don’t so perhaps you will find a way where everybody else has failed. Please let us know how you plan to have your kids educated without having to spend thousands of HKD per month. Then again perhaps your solution will be to not bother granting your children an education. At least that way you may all be able to eat something.

Perhaps you could ask the company if you could pay your own way to HK plus any hotel expenses for the interview. Maybe you could even pay them for giving you such a great opportunity flying big shiny jets should you be offered a position. I am sure they would jump at that chance.

I cannot believe you are a pilot because your posts get more farcical every day. At least the cadets already in CX know just how bad the deal is when projecting into the future hence the fact that many are already planning for when they are free of the forgivable loan.

[crwjerk]

This experienced Pilot bashing has to stop!!!!!
:ugh:

[crwjerk]

In the rookie world, a wide-body commander enjoys rock-star status
That's GOLD....!
In Hong Kong, Rock Stars enjoy Pilot status...........

[broadband circuit]

In Hong Kong, Rock Stars enjoy Pilot status...........

There's a few pilots that consider themselves rock stars.

Now, whatever happened to Captain Toss Parker? I miss his enlightened posts.

Come back Toss, we love you

[Captain Dart]

This thread is turning into 'bizarro world'.

If some of these posters here and on the Wannabes forum really are applicants, and not bored adolescents, wind-up merchants or management stooges, many of us, including the travelling public, need to be afraid. Very afraid.

Judging from these posts I would have serious doubts about the technical, practical and inter-personal skills of many of these individuals. The length and frequency of some of these missives would indicate a problem with priorities in life, and some of the posters display serious persecution complexes. How will these individuals will react to criticism, training and the unexpected, especially in the Cathay Pacific culture and global flying environment?

It may take at best, an incident, or at worst a tragedy for the company to revert to its previous very successful policy of paying 'good money for quality crew'.

[ixg888]

What is the cx culture and environment in flight operations?.. How do they critique, correct and train line entry pilots (second officers)? Is race a factor? Do they get physical in the cockpit especially at the controls? Are people inside nosy and gossips a lot?

[Cpt. Underpants]

This thread is turning into 'bizarro world'.

Agreed. Read the post just above this one...

How do we train S/Os? Beatings, mostly.
Is race a factor? Absolutely no Klingons allowed.
Do we get physical at he controls? You mean, like beatings? Yes, yes, we do.

[crwjerk]

Pardon me, but weren't you the one hinting at someone else to WIND UP earlier?An ability to understand the English language is a prerequisite for applying to the iCadet scheme. A sense of humour is also a must.

[Captain Dart]

Prospective Cathay Pacific pilots' English lesson for the day:

'Wind-up' (pronounced 'wynde up', and note the hyphen), in the context of my previous posts: to stir, to cause trouble, to act as an internet 'troll'. A 'wind-up merchant', a colloquial term, is one who does this, often to achieve an agenda, such as recruiters and management 'moles' on a 'wannabe' thread. 'Wind up' (no hyphen) means to close or finish, as this dreadful 'iCadet' scheme should be.

'Getting the wind up' ('wind' pronounced with a short 'i') is a slightly vulgar term for being afraid, as I will if the system allows some of these applicants to operate wide-bodied airliners without rigorous standards of English, technical and flying ability, and interpersonal skills being maintained.

'Fresher': an excruciating term used mainly by aspiring pilots from the sub-continent, often in conjunction with 'gen y text speak'. In Western countries this term is normally used in the context of adolescents just out of college or high school, who are entering their first year of university.

I won't explain the terms undercut, 'Parker pen' hours, Hong Kong Accommodation, Forgiveable Loan, English language standard, competence and experience.

That will be your homework for today :8.

[nitpicker330]

Forget about it Dart.

The new generation ( Y ? ) don't give a hoot for experience. It doesn't matter whether they are Indian, Australian, American etc. they think anyone can do the job no experience required. Our experience is falling on deaf Ears. :(

[ixg888]

Peace yo!......

[Kenny]

Haha! That explains your attitude. Oh well what can we do your the one with the experience the one with the right to fly with cx as for us we are just wannabees who will never be good enough to fly with cx.

Your awesomeness is a great indication that getting in at cx is not even half the battle, dealing with people like you are the one's we have to look out for

Crack a beer, grab some popcorn and put feet up.........this will be entertaining.

Ixg888, i hate to break it to you but the other half of the battle, for someone like you, is getting your Taj Mahal sized ego through the L1 door.

[Ohm Sweet Ohm]

Do they get physical in the cockpit especially at the controls?

Did you watch the news/see the pics not so long ago? That would answer your question :)

[Cpt. Underpants]

And another thing...

CX are actively recruiting in countries where:

Society is fundamentally corrupt and no culture of accountability exists...

Licencing authorities are rotten and licenses, exam results and jobs are bought and sold...

Recruitment is being farmed out to a third party where, again, an interview (or a spot on the roster) is sold to the highest bidder...

Fundamentalism - Muslim, sikh and national - is epidemic...

No background checks are mandated by the Hong Kong immigration or aviation authority (and therefore, not done)...

These Indian, Pakistani and Malaysian wannabes are being treated (in the name of political correctness) like any candidate from a developed society...

We are headed for disaster. I can see it already, a Cathay 747 heading at the Eiffel tower, some ash hole screaming "Allah uAhkbar" at the top of his misguided, demented voice.

Have Cathay well and truly lost their minds?

[robin.pereira]

Fundamentalism - Muslim, sikh and national - is epidemic...


These Indian, Pakistani and Malaysian wannabes are being treated (in the name of political correctness) like any candidate from a developed society...

We are headed for disaster. I can see it already, a Cathay 747 heading at the Eiffel tower, some ash hole screaming "Allah uAhkbar" at the top of his misguided, demented voice.



holy cow! Listen to yourself, you wuss! you talk about fundamentalism and all that rubbish. your people are bringing racism into the picture. so cut it out.

again. like the sensible guy 'smurf84' mentioned, don't generalise the entire issue here..."these indians, pakistanis, malaysians" are being treated like any candidate from a developed country??? Get a grip. there is nothing special about you. do you get that? absolutely nothing.

look at you people crying out loud like a bunch of :mad: when you suddenly see indians taking over your jobs. you tell us not to whine...but take a look at yourselves whining about hong kong labour laws, poor CoS and what not.....you just don't seem to get it all....we are not here to listen to your BS, if you thought it was working for you, rather than getting your balls together and fighting against the CX management. To hell with you cpt. underpants. look at your attitude??? and you actually put hundreds of lives in your hands when you fly???? i'm flabbergasted !! cx should know more about you. hong kong immigration should have done a proper background check on you and your friends here/

[robin.pereira]

count your days ye anti-indian morons !!! :E

[Cpt. Underpants]

Yeah! My first fatwa!

Are you a Mufti?

[captain.weird]

We are headed for disaster. I can see it already, a Cathay 747 heading at the Eiffel tower, some ash hole screaming "Allah uAhkbar" at the top of his misguided, demented voice.I'm not an Indian, nor an Asian. But yes, I'm a muslim and I'm proud of it. But why this amateur anti muslim sentence? Not every muslim is going to crash his airplane in a building, tower or what the **** it is. Those who do this are the people who are raised up in the 'danger areas' like places in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and a few others. I know some great people of those places, but it is just your destiny. They don't choose where they are born, raised up and who there carers are. I went to the mosque for lessons about my religion, to learn to read the Quran (I still don't understand it) and a lot of other things. But the best part of it is: I have learnt to be a good man which respects other religions, choices from others and what the most important things are in life. Those guys who are flying the airplanes in the buildings/towers did the same but they learnt something else: no respect for other religions and choices from others. They are drilled in their brains by those Anwar's and Osama's. It isn't their choice, it is their destiny again. Understanding this will be very hard for you, maybe your disrepect, maybe your choices in your own life. But remember this: people will threat you like you threat them. Stay positive, and see the good things in the negativities. CW

[superfrozo]

Sorry Silverfox, but as a professional pedant I have to point out that your quote: ...the Philippines! (which is the worlds largest Catholic nation) is incorrect. It's actually Brazil, by a looong shot.

This service brought to you by "Pedants Anonymous - highlighting unimportant facts or over 150 years!" :}

Now, back to the show!

[ByAirMail]

Capt Weird...Those who do this are the people who are raised up in the 'danger areas' like places in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and a few others

and the shooter in France this morning?? Muhammed, a French national, the Madrid bombers, the London underground....

[captain.weird]

Those guys who are flying the airplanes in the buildings/towers did the same but they learnt something else: no respect for other religions and choices from others. They are drilled in their brains by those Anwar's and Osama's. It isn't their choice, it is their destiny again.

You missed that I think.

It's not going about the nationalities..

[claire40]

I wondered when someone would bring that up.
The real question here is how is it possible that our illustrious airline has been persuaded that recruiting in these countries is a good idea.
The amount of effort and money required to bring them up to Cathay standard would be better off used in pitching salaries and conditions to candidates with much more suitable experience and culturally specific abilities.
Or is it that our standards will be lowered in order to achieve the required numbers of bums on seats

[flyhardmo]

It's not about religion as we have plenty of Muslim pilots and cabin crew in cx who are brilliant. It's not about being Indian/ Pakistani or any other particular race. it's about CX being cheap, taking pilots who are not very experienced and paying them less with false promises.

The kids on this forum (I don't care where you are from) need to realise that selling yourself short now will affect you for the rest of your career. Don't be so short sighted and listen to what the more experienced have to say.

The guys bringing up race and religion, you are not helping the situation so let's stick to the topic at hand to try and get the message across. I have no sympathy for any icadets that come to CX and complain about the living standard or pay, you have been warned of the true facts not the management hype.

[Harbour Dweller]

The real question here is how is it possible that our illustrious airline has been persuaded that recruiting in these countries is a good idea.

Because CX is struggling to find candidates from "Traditional Regions of Recruitment" willing to accept the lowly iCadet package. These candidates see the iCadet package as so bad they don't even bother to turn up for interviews.

This is unprecedented in the history of CX.

Word on the street is the GMA (Swire, non pilot manager) is behind the push to explore "Non Traditional Regions".

[slowjet]

And there you have it. Underpants (Capt. I don't think so. Unlikely even to be a SPO.for you , Underpants, that means"System Panel Operator"). CX used to have a "Selection Procedure", apart from the racist stuff that was rampant in the early 70's, there was a continuous degree of careful selection. "Underpants", displaying very disjointed thinking, inarticulate presentations & very worrying outlooks would not have got past the very basic application screening. If this guy really is a CX pilot, we ALL need to be extremely concerned. Most likely another dysfunctional Troll. What really worries me, is, reading through this CX stuff, a dreadful image is being portrayed on a public forum. Oh, & if I need to justify myself : 40 years in the industry, 22000 hours, All jet, all heavy. Currently Head of the Selection Board. We are really good at weeding out twerps like you. For other readers; This truly cannot be CX.........can it ? Dismal.

[SloppyJoe]

Slowjet,

Capt. I don't think so. Unlikely even to be a SPO.for you

Are you implying that a flight engineer is somehow inferior? Having so much flight experience, 40 years all heavy jet, I am surprised you look down on your previous colleagues in such a way. Much better to work with 250 hour wonder boys/girls.

This truly cannot be the views of a 40 year, 22,000 hour, all jet, all heavy experienced head of selection board maverick.........can it ? Dismal.

[ixg888]

Finally someone stood up and kept our hopes alive.

[climbout]

Slowjet: Well said! - nothing to add.

[jetjockey696]

Good luck CX.. and the instructors.. :} remember guys run your LEFT PACKS on HIGH:ok: (I hope BOEING guys get my drift:p) on accepting on these guys..

i got information yesterday that an Indonesian airline, have stopped taking Indian pilots even though they are desperately in of need pilots... they found of these indian pilots where of poor standards, and found a few with fake typeratings and Indian licenses..Meaning, they paid a official to endorse a typerating without any training on that type.. the airline found it troublesome to validate the Indian DGCA licence, it took ages,:ugh: even longer than SE Asian time..for doing things... :p

[crwjerk]

The pilot being referred to in the news article, the link for which has been provided above, was an Air India management pilot. No other set of pilots has more influence over DGCA than them. If THEY cannot get away with reporting drunk for duty, I can quite confidently say, nobody else can.


How does it work in other countries? Do you have to take breath tests before every flight? How does it work in other countries? This guy wouldn't have been able to bribe his way out of being FIRED, that's how it works in other countries.

[robin.pereira]

spot on. the current prime minister of india is just a puppet. he is answerable to certain other people who are running the country. we are helpless and can't do anything about it. revolutions and protests are on the streets, but they fade away in no time. media is controlled by the government. so they try to bring down the issue if it goes out of hand. the rich and the upper-middle class couldn't be happier living a great life in india. there's plenty and plenty of money there. it is obviously the lower middle class and the poor that are suffering which is shown to all of you watching BBC/CNN. it will take decades for things to get better.

as for the recruiters at CX, I don't think they would even bother looking at the indian licence, when the prsopective cadet holds an Australian/NZ CPL. those pilots will have an added advantage over the others. there are many indian pilots who were trained in australia and some of them have been selected for the 2nd stage in hong kong. I'm sure they're as good as some of the pilots in australia, considering they went through the same training standards.

by the way, is the simulator check ride done during stage 2? what is the pilot checked on? NDB, VOR intercepts? ILS?

[ixg888]

HSI and RMI would be key...Intercept for one is very important, I think for advance entry cadets holding procedures like parallel , direct and teardrop entry would be key.

Localizer, ILS and glideslope check should be fun..

[crwjerk]

NDB approaches no longer allowed at CX so why bother studying it?

[pasa001]

BYE BYE shivamjoshi

[ixg888]

Sensitivity sometimes reaches a point of boredom.. Further elongates insubstantial infos..

Anyhow..

I think flight grading will be composed of nav flights and maneuvers.. Just wondering how to land a grob low wing compared to a cessna... Ground effect must be a diff feel .. Anyone who have tried to fly a grob?

[j3pipercub]

Yes, flare and then take both hands off the controls, put them above your head and yell AUTOLAND!!!

[ixg888]

Hahaha.. :D i wonder why your still alive.. Flying that way.

[Sqwak7700]

Just wondering how to land a grob low wing compared to a cessna... Ground effect must be a diff feel .. Anyone who have tried to fly a grob

Must be terribly hard, I'm sure some magical human being has tried... and succeeded! Surely, if you can land a grob, or any low wing light trainer, there will be several major airlines beating on your front door so that you may bring these magical skills to their training departments. :roll eyes:

[Sqwak7700]

Crashes continue to plague Indian air force (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/crashes-continue-to-plague-indian-air-force-369682/)

Maybe CX can start a training program for the air-force. 33 crashes in 3 years. Wow, lets get some of these guys on board, only the best for Hong Kong's premier carrier.

:ok:

[robin.pereira]

haha. look at you guys. a bunch of jobless nitwits digging up articles and reports on india. i'm very glad that all of you are taking keen interest in my country and its issues. if you have so much time in life (rather than flying for CX), I think you should just quit, come here and sort things out.

how come you don't want to take some time off in posting news reports on the crimes, scandals in your country and the airplane crashes (GA or not) and criticize the crappy pilots from there, and some of them even ending up at CX.

you have no clue about the pilots who cleared the CX stage 1 interview in india. if you choose to be ignorant about our skills, you're in deep trouble. but we are as good as some of you. you just go by the reports of the local newspaper and boom - there comes the verdict. do some in-depth analysis and research. you start bashing and whining when the news of fake pilots was out and started talking crap about us. but you forgot that not all 12,000 pilots had fake licences. you forgot to mention that the dgca did a good job by taking stern action against those who had fake licences.

what is your point in putting up all these reports here? people awareness. you're doing it to the wrong people then. let me give you a good tip to that not-so-smart brain of yours - why don't you make a presentation to chris pratt, john slosar and richard hall about your worries regarding indian pilots instead? they will definitely listen to you, won't they? i thought all of you were sensible enough to realize that the very same indian pilots who got selected for stage 2 are not going to listen to your BS. how are you even going to work in a multi-cultural organization? you wouldn't even tolerate it I reckon. CX made a big mistake by hiring you. are you guys actually working for CX? you don't even have the gall to reveal your names. what are you scared of?

[Cumguzzler]

I thought we already tried Indian S/O's... BTW, she's no longer with us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6C8Z9aBa2Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[robin.pereira]

oh yes, now we come back to the same old story...she (an indian S/O) was terminated. :ugh:

all the brits/aussies/canadians/americans are happy and clapping together rejoicing that moment.

[Gligg]

It's not about skills, or which country produces better pilots (i havent seen a correlation between nationality and flying skill personally) It's about crewing aircraft at the lowest cost. To buy experience from developed countries is relatively expensive - they have to provide for an equivalent standard of living or nobody with experience will bite (as was demonstrated when C scale was initially offered to the B scale holding pool)
Offering C scale to Ab initio is a different story - many are willing to take a lowball offer in exchange for the 'security' of going to a legacy carrier from day one, thus eliminating/minimising the risks, teethgrinding and headaches of 'climbing the ladder' to the big jets.

Going to developing countries on the other hand opens up an opportunity to crew at a cheaper rate, not just for ab initio, but to bring in experienced Jet drivers on lower rates as well. One man's lowball deal is another's way to a better life.

It's a shame that CX is taking this route, but hey, I'd probably do it too if I were the one filling out the ledger books.

[Sqwak7700]

you forgot to mention that the dgca did a good job by taking stern action against those who had fake licences.

Honestly, I would like to nominate you for the most ignorant statement award. The same organization that allowed all these fake licenses ruled that the reason was "rapid expansion". Yeah, that is to blame. Not the incompetence and corruption on their shoulders. If only there was an agency whose purpose was to uphold safety in the face of commercial pressure... :rolleyes:

I'm gonna enjoy flying with you. You seem to have a good sense of humor. :}

[robin.pereira]

I'm gonna enjoy flying with you. You seem to have a good sense of humor.

Of course I do. You might get lucky to see it one day. But I don't know who you are, cause you haven't revealed your name yet.

I wish CX would read this entire thread and many more on all your troubles and worries regarding the airline. not one of you is able to address this issue to the company. instead, you will always log onto PPRuNe and do all the bashing which is very very unprofessional. you folks keep telling us 'you have been warned' or 'don't tell me you weren't warned' and all that nonsense.

it isn't we who degraded this glorified profession. it is your company that did so. blame it on them, not us you imbeciles !! don't question our standards. many of us (not all of us) have done the same training in your country as you did.

[SloppyJoe]

I wish CX would read this entire thread and many more on all your troubles and worries regarding the airline. not one of you is able to address this issue to the company.

How do you know that? There have been many senior pilots, training captains, management pilots voicing their concerns about the new path CX is taking with recruiting. Its one of the reasons many who used to are no longer conducting interviews. This is constantly brought up as being a bad idea, not only on pprune but also in the management offices at Cathay City. Once again it is not about race it is about hiring the lowest qualified guys on the lowest package, the ratio of competent pilots in CX will fall. Yes some will be good, some outstanding but the ones who should probably not be in a cockpit will increase. It just so happens that Indias track record with aviation is a bit of a joke and that is where CX is focusing some resources for recruitment. It just shocks those who remember the standards that used to be imposed on new joiners.

[robin.pereira]

It just so happens that Indias track record with aviation is a bit of a joke and that is where CX is focusing some resources for recruitment.

You are right. but isn't cathay going to pick the best among the indian pilots and not all??????? do not underestimate us. whether you like it or not, have faith that only the best will get through. don't judge us on the basis of our past records. you are again criticizing the entire indian pilot community.

[broadband circuit]

whether you like it or not, have faith that only the best will get through.

You, kind sir, are a naive fool!

Commercial pressures have been brought to bear. The bean counters merely see a necessity to get bums on seats, regardless of who you are and where you're from.

Why are they pitching so hard for guys with a CPL & 250 hours?

Well, CX thought they could get anyone world wide with zero hours to join a cadet course, and then sponsor their residency in HK. Thankfully the HKID have (correctly) identified that plan as a breach of the concept of "labour is imported only when said skills are not available locally", and put a lid on it. Hence, you need to meet a minimum experience & qualification level to be sponsored - and guess what! That threshold is a CPL & 250 hrs.

Put more simply, CX are pitching at the absolute minimum standard which they can legally offer. They tried lower, and were stopped by the government. Now, the real tragedy is that this "legal" minimum has, in effect, always been there, but they have never even gone close to it. Until they started to offer only the local package, even to expats, anyone with just a CPL & 250 hrs would not have even been considered.

Why the big change? Easy - no one with higher experience levels wants to touch this contract. Not only that, most of the absolute minimum qualification guys from "traditional recruiting markets" realise that this contract is a joke.

The bottom line is that the mere fact that they're pitching at this level shows a sheer desperation on the part of the bean counters to put bums in seats. It's nothing to do with nationality, it's about experience levels.

[robin.pereira]

A million times....a million times we've been trying to tell you...you still don't get it??? what does it take to feed just a bit of information into all your brains??? Agreed it is about experience. what are we to do about it? we don't fancy this contract. the low-time pilots from traditional recruiting markets (TRM) will obviously find this contract as a joke and decline it, but they have other options (GA). Yet again, there are low-time pilots from Australia taking up this offer.

there are not enough jobs for 6000 unemployed pilots in india. they can't go to europe or usa or africa or australia looking for work. what were you thinking when CX came to India? all of the 77 indian pilots wouldn't show up for the interviews??? Wrong! We are desperately looking for a job. now only half of them may have made it to the next stage. get this straight all you cynics - WE didn't degrade your working and living conditions. Please be more smart enough to realize that it is your dear company that did so. they knocked on our doors and we opened it. You have no right to lock us in. don't give the ''you were warned'' nonsense again.

Some of you may say it isn't about nationality, it is about experience. but there are quite a few (presently flying for CX) who are disturbed more about the nationality factor than the experience levels. please don't deny that. it is very evident from some of the posts in this thread and other forums.

Like smurf (from India) mentioned, the dreaded 'R' word definitely exists in some working CX pilots and cadets from the so-called TRM. Don't deny that either. these very same people think that there is only one colour in this entire world, and that is WHITE. how much ever you try to hide that thought, it is there deep inside you - the hatred towards us. it will never end. mind you, i'm talking about only a few people. not all. it disgusts me and i don't understand what makes them feel this way, but it just isn't going to work inside a cockpit and in a profession with utmost discipline. if you thought it is, that would certainly be a recipe for disaster. so much for CRM.

[j3pipercub]

Robin,

After your performance on here on a now closed thread, you are the LAST person who should be lecturing anyone about racism. What you wrote was beyond belief. You have lost credibility on this site with those words.

j3

[PNM]

The manner in which some of the potential recruits are conducting themselves in this forum speaks volumes about what kind of pilots we are soon to be sharing our cockpits with. To be completely fair, I feel that posts from our boys could be more restrained as well.

However, I'm getting a real sense of entitlement and cockiness from some of the individual posters here. The "system" will take care of that if indeed they (the cocky ones) are hired.

I have a few Indian friends and I think very highly of them - so race is not a motivator in my (reluctant) decision to make a post.

Acknowledge (as some posters have) that the real issue here is the sub-standard contract being offered - and all that means for the future of existing contracts. Jeez... I'm starting to sound like an old A-scaler!

[kenfoggo]

Robin.

I am surprised that you seem so keen to join a club that so obviously does not want you? If we are all WHITE supremacists as you seem to imagine, then surely, for you, this is not the working environment to join?

Please do try not to lecture me on my personal qualities or my CRM ability until at the very least we have met. It is insulting.

[robin.pereira]

what makes you not wanting me is the provocation caused due to the comments/scathing remarks made by some of the pilots (CX or not) against Indians and indian pilots. i will not tolerate it, sit and read all the rubbish some of you write about us. it may not be in this thread. those certain other threads have been deleted cause things went out of hand, because of the racist remarks being made against us. such is the nature of a few pilots who despise us. and you couldn't have said it better - this would certainly not be the perfect working environment for me if i had a captain and a F/O who have issues against indians.

Please keep in mind, my previous post was referring to only a few people, NOT ALL. I am NOT insulting YOU. But I will insult the personal/CRM abilities of pilots who doubt our strengths and glorify our weaknesses, which CX has to take note of such elements at some point of time !!!

PNM - you are absolutely right. the system will take care of the cocky ones.

[kenfoggo]

Robin.

Again you are insulting.
Please stop.
You are not doing your cause any good.

[fire wall]

Robin, I got the previous thread shutdown as a result of racial vilification from numerous parties, you included. Whilst I do not condone the comments from previous posters, your reaction to such is unacceptable. If this is how you respond under "pressure" then I suggest you may be better suited to another profession.

[smurf84]

Robin,

I chose to stay away from this thread as the debate was going nowhere. :)
Initially, we keep blaming each other and eventually the airline. I suggest you keep your emotions in control and refrain from aggressive comments. This is for your benefit. I think you went overboard in another thread (with an Australian pilot who also got carried away) which was deleted for good.

The show must go on.

[Cumguzzler]

Robin sounds a lot like an ex-indian SO that used to work for us...

[sirhcttarp]

In 2012, cx hired about 100 new so's.

of that 100, only 1 had the guts to tell cx to shove it.

[pasa001]

The latest recruiting dive in Japan was a complete flop ,no suitable canidates
Cheers

[Steve the Pirate]

The latest recruiting dive in JapanWas that pun intentional? :)

STP

[jacobus]

sorry to burst your bubble pasa, however I wonder who all those japanese young men in black in the medical section and in the CX City street were the other day then...a shinto buddhist convention..? The word apparently is that they are to a very high standard academically and professionally, standard of english something to be concerned about, and of course there is something of a cultural divide...to put it mildly...:ok:

[pilotchute]

New hunting grounds for SO's? Myself and a few other aviatiors I know have applications in with CX and not heard boo. We all have over 500 hours TT and we also have a good mix of multi piston and S/E Turbine command. I cant think of any reason why none of us have had a call. If only a couple out of us got called I would understand but there are five of us an no one has been contacted in the 12 months since we applied.

Are the people recruited from "new grounds" being paid any less than current SO's? Does this mean no one from the traditional recruiting grounds will be called anymore?

[jacobus]

Ah. Now youve got it::}

[Sqwak7700]

If only a couple out of us got called I would understand but there are five of us an no one has been contacted in the 12 months since we applied.


That is because they are looking for "compliant and weak" candidates that can be intimidated and controlled. They realize that certain country's candidates are likely to leave when ever they want, and are less likely to be intimidated.

Take Australia, they thought they would just push some IP pilots around a bit, and they ended up being pushed back. Like a bully, they don't like getting a taste of their own medicine.

The countries from which they are recruiting now will not give them any problem in this regard and they lack any fair justice systems or have such a compliant culture that conflict is avoided at all costs, even personal sacrifice.

[pasa001]

Yes STP it was a complete DIVE;)

[daniel747]

Why aren't the current pilots not calling the shots then? Hong Kong labour law constraints? Are there plenty of SO's from 'other' countries in the cockpit at the moment?

I'm having my doubts regarding this programme. I have been invited for Stage 2. There seem to be many pilots who are happy flying for CX (I know a few of them, South Africans and Brits). The troubled ones are likely to be on Pprune. :)

[AQIS Boigu]

Daniel747,

HKG's labour laws are very pro employer so we can't "call the shots" as you might expect from BA or LH crews.

Current SO's from "other" countries are in the minority (we are talking single digits) - I presume "other" means the "new" target countries for recruiting.

The issue here is (which has been discussed to death) that YOU will be on 50% less than WE are on and this is due to the fact that CX has scrapped the housing allowance for new recruits. The package is - plain and simple - just not enough to live with a family; I got mates with a wife and two kids and on full housing and they burn every dollar - this might not be an issue for you now but maybe in a few years (you are 28 now and you are not a kid anymore).

I am actually quite surprised they invited your for an interview - it was my understanding that CX was looking for young and naive kids in their early 20's - not for mature pilots.

But for the time being I am happy to work for CX but if there was no housing allowance I wouldn't have joined.

AB

[wanchi girl]

Im with Aquis on his comments.

If your a first officer xpat in this town with wife and kids, there is nothing left at the end of the month.

THe locals, are a lot younger on average, so a lot of them live with their parents and single. Those that are married with kids can send their kids to local schools, albeit they would love the choice to send them to better schools.
The housing that they end up buying is suitable if thats how you were bought up, but if you want a big apartment the "special allowance" will get you sweet FA.

I came here for the Capts salary diff from the FO's and the Housing purchase.
Even with the USD were it is (hkd pegged), I'd be having second thoughts, considering the lifestyle sacrifice and moving away from clean air.

This below has just been posted on the union website:

MUST KNOW FOR PROSPECTIVE DRAGONAIR PILOTS - the Standard Contract


Effective as of 1 April 2012, all pilots recruited by Dragonair will be employed on
the Standard Conditions of Service (CoS) regardless of background or experience.
The Standard COS was unilaterally introduced by the Company, without input and
consultation with the Dragonair Pilots Association (DPA). The DPA has attempted to
rectify this without success thus far.

The Standard CoS is an inferior contract compared to the Expatriate B Scale that all
previous pilots recruited from overseas were offered. Cadet entry and local
citizens are employed on a 'Local' CoS, which is at a lower total remuneration than
the Standard CoS and Expatriate CoS.

Standard CoS Details

The Standard CoS is made up of three parts;

1. Part 1 - contains Contractual Agreements that affect your condition of service
and will only be changed with your consent,

2. Part 2 - contains Company Policies that are written for your information only.
It does not confer contractual rights to you and may be unilaterally amended or
removed by the Company at it's sole discretion, and

3. Part 3 - Agreed Policies which are agreements between the DPA and Dragonair.
Agreed policies may only be amended after mutual agreement between the DPA and Dragonair.

Unfortunately, benefits and provisions that may affect your decision to join
Dragonair, such as Credit Hour Provisions, Child Education Allowance Policy and
Medical Benefits are now Part 2, which means they can be amended or removed
unilaterally if and when the company sees fit.

Importantly, your credit hours could be amended from 75 per month (as currently set)
to a higher level without your approval, or a salary increase. Housing and Education are very
expensive in Hong Kong, and the medical benefits have not been adequately increased
for over 15 years.

Spaces for International schools are limited and require up front debentures typically between HKD $100,000 and $400,000 . Some of these debentures are non refundable. This is in additon to annual fees of approximately HKD $100,000. per child.

Conclusion

All currently employed pilots were given the opportunity to sign over to the
Standard CoS.

However due to the 'open to change' nature of the Standard CoS, the overwhelming
majority of the pilots employed on the Local CoS did not switch over to this
Standard CoS. This despite it providing provision for SUBSTANTIAL increases to
Child Education Allowance and Special Allowance compared to the current Local CoS of
around HKD 20k to 30 k per month.

The Standard CoS is about 40% below the Expatriate CoS.

The DPA advises all prospective new joiners to study and evaluate the Standard CoS
prior to accepting employment with Dragonair and consider the impact it could
have on your career and lifestyle in Hong Kong.

[fly123456]

it is time the hkaoa does something about this sub-standard contract!

Else you can see what will happen: all new joiners get in without a proper expat package, next thing: all expats are to sign the new package or get fired (not now, as we're still short of crew, but in a few years?)

Man, these are the important things! c scale, 25 years housing, bases, double tax...
AOA, please focus on this, and not how your federation is (not) working!

When are the next GC election due?

[MrClaus]

I've said this before and I will keep saying it.

1. Have a plan B.

2. Have the equivalent of 6mths salary in a liquid asset: ready to go.

I am not saying to give up, but when this crewing issue solves itself I see hard times ahead.:sad:

[larrikan larry]

I see a bad moon arisin'.

I see troubles on the way

[SMOC]

Under its ambitious growth plans, Cathay Pacific – the Hong Kong based private airline – is in the process of hiring Pakistani pilots.

We (http://tribune.com.pk/story/362574/were-hiring-cathay-pacific-drives-to-recruit-pakistani-aviators/)

[MrClaus]

I think they will have much more luck in Pakistan than in India. Pakistan is basically a failed State and I think you will get pilots applying just so they can get the Permanent HK ID after 7yrs and thus get their families out of the country.

[Oval3Holer]

...applicants with sufficient experience and impressive credentials may skip the training process and be invited directly to Hong Kong, Hodges explains.

We're hiring: Cathay Pacific drives to recruit Pakistani aviators (http://tribune.com.pk/story/362574/were-hiring-cathay-pacific-drives-to-recruit-pakistani-aviators/)

[Captain Dart]

Is this in fact an old story, of which the upshot was that four Pakistani pilots were offered positions but the deal CX offered was so bad even they turned it down?

If not, how will Pakistani pilots get on with our relatively large numbers of Indian cabin crew?

Will they be able to operate to BOM, DEL and Chennai?

How will these pilots get on with CX cockpit crew of Indian extraction?

Will there be adequate background and security checks on these individuals?

How will the company check the professional credentials of these pilots, from one of the most corrupt countries on the planet, very close to a 'failed state'? And if no flight grading for some at ADL is correct, will some of them slip through the wicket keeper?

Is the Parker pen company setting up an outlet (specialising in refills) in Karachi?

What will happen if the Captain takes the chicken leaving only the pork as a meal choice?

So many questions...

[crwjerk]

it is time the hkaoa does something about this sub-standard contract!

Else you can see what will happen: all new joiners get in without a proper expat package, next thing: all expats are to sign the new package or get fired (not now, as we're still short of crew, but in a few years?)

Man, these are the important things! c scale, 25 years housing, bases, double tax...
AOA, please focus on this, and not how your federation is (not) working!
Back to " signing sh1t contracts 101 lesson".......... DON"T SIGN IT THEN!!!!

There is no way a new hire with no hours is ever going to get full expat allowances, and why should they? In the past it was a reward for your experience and hard work in your previous life. If you all expect to be spoon fed for your whole life, NEWSFLASH!!!!!
Shoot me I don't give a f@ck, just understand that if none of you had taken the package then yes, it would have been better in the long run. :D

[uspilot]

LMAO...wow..

I assume Cathay is inviting more applicants for the AE-SO programme. The HR dept. may have accidentally sent emails to the candidates who sat for/passed the Stage 1 interview in Mumbai. I'll get that confirmed tomorrow.

I really don't think there is an issue with the 250 hours requirement at the moment. Pilots from Cathay's traditional recruiting grounds may be declining the offer which could be the reason they're coming back to India again. This is just an assumption and it will be good news for the pilot community in India.:yuk: bond - We did the Stage 1 interview. Cathay sent us the email 3 weeks ago clearly mentioning that we have been shortlisted for the Stage 2 interview in Hong Kong. Why do you think this could be the end of the line?