EE Canberra book contributor request

[nazca_steve]

Hello all,

I'm working on a book, at present loosely entitled 'The Canberra Experience'. The book will focus on the experiences of people that either built, flew or serviced the aircraft in various air forces around the world. It will be told in an 'in their own words' format, so at this point I am building up contacts from various countries so to gather the necessary material. Once the planned book is published, a percentage of proceeds will be split between the RAF Benevolent Fund (http://www.rafbf.org/) and other Air Force charities abroad.

Therefore, my request to all good PPRuNe members is, if you had some experience with the old girl and are willing to share something of this in anecdotal form, I would love to have your contribution in the book. I understand it can be hard to instantly 'dredge up' something of interest to the wider public, and so the this is the format I am using to get the ball rolling:

Basic details:

1) Your rank upon leaving the service

2) Squadron(s)/MU/Station(s) served on

3) Dates of service

4) Types of Canberra flown/serviced


Your experiences with the Canberra:

- When did you first encounter the Canberra, and what was your reaction when you first saw the aircraft? Excitement? Disappointment? Just a job?

- After getting familiar with the type, what were you initial likes/dislikes with the aircraft?

- Do you have any interesting anecdotes about either yours or colleagues experiences with the Canberra? For example, an amusing (or sad) experience involving servicing or flying the type.

- Did any major or interesting changes occur to the type during your involvement with it? Such as refurbishment, fatigue problems, equipment introductions or modifications? Perhaps an idea or modification you were personally involved with.

- If you were involved with several variants during your career, what was your particular favourite or least-liked, and for what reasons?

If you have anything else you feel would be of interest that is not covered above, I’d love to hear about it. Similarly, if you have any Canberra or squadron-related photos you’d like to contribute to the book that would be fantastic. All material, whether it be written material or photos will be fully credited. This book is to be made up of related accounts, as told in your own words. The main point is, you don’t have to be an essay-writing genius to tell a good story.

If you have any other friends or colleagues who were involved with the Canberra and you think would be interested in contributing, please let them know.

Project background:

As a brief bit of background on myself, I grew up just outside of RAF Wyton in the 80s, at the end of the Canberra era. The impression of grubby 100 Sqn TT.18s and hemp-coloured PR.9s was to stick with me, and in recent years rediscovered my hobby (ok, obsession) with the Canberra. After a couple of casual talk with ex-Canberra crews, it led to the realisation that there were many good stories relating to her across the world - something that needed bringing together under one roof. Hence the start of this project over the last two years.

Thanks very much all for your time. And to prove I am not a phantom entity but a living breathing Cranberry nut, here's a shot or two of me:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/nazca_steve/steven_beeny_canberra.jpg

Steve Beeny

[ColdWarWimp]

Hi Steve

I enjoyed 11 years as an electrician on the Canberra, I worked on B2, T4, PR9, E15 and T19.

PM me your e mail or other contact details and I will knock something together over the next couple of weeks.

Cheers

CWW

[nazca_steve]

Hi CCW,

PM duly sent and cheers for the offer of help.

ATB,

Steve

[Bill Macgillivray]

Steve,flew the T4, PR3, B6, PR7 and PR9 in the early '60s. May have some tales and the odd picture which may be of interest to you. PM and I will see what I have.

[nazca_steve]

Cheers Bill, PM duly sent.

[Lukeafb1]

Steve,

Spent 14 years on them, including T4, B6, B15, B16 and occasionally the PR9.

PM me and I will get back to you in the next few weeks.

Regards,

Luke.

[nazca_steve]

Hello Luke,

Thanks for getting in touch, and PM duly sent.

[nazca_steve]

One thing I should probably mention to all current and potential contributors - don't be afraid of telling a story or anecdote that might appear trivial. Operational and technical stories are welcomed and relevant, but this book is planned to tell a 'human' side of the Canberra experience as much as possible.

For instance, the Canberra was well-known for its 'bake or freeze' cabin conditions, so if you have memories of that, please share them. Other such ergonomic trivialities might include the entry/exit ritual from the T.4, a nav moving between bomb aimer's couch and his seat in a hurry, or (less of a triviality) the experience of a B(I).8 nav not having a bang seat.

Hopefully this gives an idea of what I'm looking for in addition to the 'starter' details I gave above. These relate to aircrew of course; I am sure the riggers, armourers and electricians have their fair share of amusing stories (if they are perusing PPrune that is!)

Switching topics slightly, another purpose of the book is to tell this story from as international angle as possible. While I am gathering material from air forces outside the UK, if you had experience working with or training personnel from abroad on the Canberra, I would love to hear about that too.

ATB,

Steve

[scorpion63]

First trained on PR3, B2 in 1966 then through PR7, B6, B(I)8, PR9 as an engineer then in the back seat of TT18, B2/6(MOD) and B6(MOD) plus some T4 time. Apart from a foray into Vulcan, Pembroke and Nimrod, I make that 46 years almost unbroken Canberra'ing. PM me

[nazca_steve]

Cracking record there, thanks for getting in touch and PM sent.

[Lukeafb1]

Steve,

Tried replying to your PM email address, but I get a message each time, telling me that the email address is no longer valid????

Has anyone else had this problem?

Luke

Seems to be working now!:)

[nazca_steve]

Got your email thanks - glad it is not giving any more grief, and will be in touch soon.

[longer ron]

1972 -76 I was a rigger on 231 OCU and of course we had our share of comic,tragic and bizarre incidents.Anybody recall this incident...?

Probably a student crew of Pilot and Nav,night flying in a B2 (possibly WJ677?) on finals into Cottesmore and letting down through an icing layer - suffer a double flame out...pilot tries relight but no luck.
He then orders nav to eject (slow ejection sequence on canberras so don't leave it too late !),nav bangs out successfully but pilot then tries another relight and guess what - both engines light up and he lands successfully :)
Meanwhile nobody has told the line control about the ejection...ground crew marshals a/c into parking bay thinking WTF is that big pole sticking out of the fuselage ???
Also meanwhile navs SARBE fails to operate and he is missing,station call out for troops to try to locate said nav,all get very muddy LOL (I missed that bit - being out with a minidressed young lady ;) )...I believe the nav was eventually found safe and sound by a USAF chopper.
In the cold light of day - during the ejection sequence the leg restraints had pulled out a large portion of the nav compartment floor :) and I believe the a/c was catogarised as Cat 2(assist) although really it was probably effectively Cat 3!

All from memory and happy to be corrected in the likely event of mistakes etc

[longer ron]

Just recalled another little funny...
Canberra 240 gal tip tanks were attached by 3 explosive bolts and removing them was simply a case of ensuring that the tanks were empty ;) and then employing 4 'volunteers' to lift an ally cradle under the tank to support it whilst the 3 nuts attaching it to the wingtip were removed...what could possibly go wrong LOL???;)
Anyway cpl Stu was tasked with tip tank removal one sunny day and one of the 'volunteers' was our ENGO (engineer officer/ground crew flight commander) - the first nut was a little stiffer than usual - obvious question from us experienced ground crew ''is it definitely empty Stu ??'' ,''yes of course '' replies Stu.
Next nut is also fairly tight - again ''are you absolutely sure its empty ??'' , ''yes yes'' replies Stu...anyway and predictably the last nut is REALLY tight and we say ''dip the tank fer gods sake''.
He unscrews the filler cap and the tank is so full that fuel slops out LOL

''I'll see you in my office later corporal '' says the ENGO :) and stalks off LOL

The moral of the story is that one should not rely on tapping a tank to check its contents but to use the high tech broomstick instead :)

[nazca_steve]

Hi Longer Ron,

love those stories, and was definitely chuckling on that last one at the 'see you in my office' line. I can imagine the tension on the last nut was pretty damn tight holding that weight. Lucky it did not drop as I have heard from another good contributor on this thread.

Regarding the ejection story, if anyone here can provide rough dates for that incident or even crew names, I'd be grateful. Very interesting about the damage to the nav cabin floor. One question related to SARBE, can you give me a bit of a run down on this kit? Specifically where this was carried, i.e. on the seat itself, then detached to come down with the nav, or remains on the seat and is activated later. I am very curious to know about the range of these beacons and roughly when they were introduced into service.

I remember 231 OCU tail fins well from my days spotting as a kid (the 80s, after your days) from the crash gate at Wyton. Hanging on the fence with a pair of binos trying to make out what was in that little white circle on the fin, eventually seeing the leopard (cheetah?) on a chain.

No doubt I will have some more questions and am sending PM to you now with my address.

Steve

[longer ron]

Hi Steve
The Nav MAY have been Flt Lt 'Slim' Pocock and the a/c MAY have been B2 WJ677...looking on the ejection website gives a date of either 13/15 march 1973,I am on slow pc away from home...will email you on saturday if I get home.

Cannot remember any real problems with the T4 swing seat,sometimes it was tricky to get them to lock in the central position but as long as you had a 'Pig Sticker' to lock the stick fully forward it was reasonably easy.

A T4 story...late shift and dark,we are on our lower parking bays nearest the rwy threshold,our neighbours (360sqn) T4 touches down (WJ866 ?) and taxys clear for after landing checks,suddenly we hear a 'thump/bang' sort of noise closely followed by engine shutdown.
So we drive down in our landyrover to see if we can help (ie be nosy !!) as we arrive at the a/c - the crew door opens and instructor gets out in a cloud of smoke/dust and we also notice that the Navs hatch is looking a little crumpled around the edges :)
We ask the instructor ''what happened ?'' ---he just points at the nav compartment and says ''pressed the wrong fukcen switch''.
I believe that the Nav was an FAA observer (360 was ,as you know- RAF/RN) and his punishment may have been a shipboard posting.
But to be fair to the nav involved,I believe it was easy to make the wrong hatch selection in the dark and blow the ring of explosive bolts around the nav hatch .

rgds LR

[Tinribs]

I first flew the Canberra at Cottesmore in 1972 after a ground tour at Hereford. After the OCU at Cottesmore I went to 85 sqn at Binbrook and then 100 sqn at West Raynham. Then on to 360 at Cottesmore moving mid tour to Wyton followed by a tour as Maintenance test pilot at the overhaul facility, Aldergrove, in Northern Ireland. Then Back to 39 at Wyton for less than two years before off to Radar Research Squadron at RAE Bedford flying many canberra versions, Comet, Nimrod, varsity and Viscount.

Of the flying the PR9 at 39 and the SC9 at Bedford were the most exciting and the research work at Bedford was the most interesting and the Viscount the most valuable for career progression

PM me if I can help
Paddy

[Wander00]

Confusion over the "jettison" switch for the nav's hatch was the likely cause of Lt Norman Lake's sadly fatal acident in the T4 at Watton in 1967 or 68

[longer ron]

internet probs...just back online

Hi Steve...about the B2(T)

As far as I am aware the only B2(T) was WJ731 which I believe had a slightly different radio/avionic fit,from my point of view as a rigger the only difference I seem to recall is that the Battery master switch had been moved to the back of the switch console on the stbd side of the pilots seat (ie nav operated) - on the standard B2 it was on the forward face of the same console and thus pilot operated.

Just writing 'standard' B2 makes me giggle as they were all a little different anyway (not just B2...all canberras seemed to be 'non standard ' :)

rgds LR

[nazca_steve]

Longer Ron, I have to admit, I am a little confused myself as to why the Nav would have been pushing any switch himself to exit the aircraft, other than following the pilot/instructor out of the normal crew entrance door. Was it just a complete cock-up on the observer's part or am I mis-reading something here? Good story nonetheless and thanks for the B.2(T) details, I bet not that many folk know that!

Like your comment on the lack of 'standardisation' on any one variant's cockpit - shows how long the old girl had served for and the number of masters Cans served. You hear the anecdote that the second they left the manufacturer and got on a Sqn that they were no longer 'standard.' Makes them all that more fun in my opinion (easy to say never having had to work or fly on one).

Paddy, thanks for your offer, I will duly send PM shortly. I have some good questions for you then based off that brief list!

To all:

While any and all Canberra related stories are greatly welcomed, I am now looking for the following specific areas of background:

-Anyone with experience on the T.22, preferably flying, but servicing fine.

-As above, but with the interdictor versions - B(I).8/12 B(I).6 and the foreign export versions.

-Paddy (Tinribs) has mentioned RAE flying - we all know the famous 'Raspberry Ripple' Canberras and anyone who was there over these years I would love to hear from you.

-Again, anyone with time spent either training or doing detachments with a non-RAF Canberra operator.

[longer ron]

Hi Steve
As Wanderoo posted,it was the Hatch 'Jettison' switch that would blow the hatch bolts.
The switch had to be set 'safe' during after landing checks but after so many years I cannot remember exactly why it was so easy to set wrongly...for obvious reasons us groundcrew never played with the damn thing :)
I am sure one of the Canberra aircrew on here will explain it for us.

rgds baz

[nazca_steve]

Ahh, got it, thanks, Baz. It takes a civvie to ask a question like that. You'll all have to bear with me, I am learning, but not ashamed to ask. I'll look at the T.4 pilot's notes I have for the jettison switch - I only have a vague image of it my head but an inspection of it might make it clearer to me. And don't think for a second I am passing judgement here- just trying to understand the incident! :)

[longer ron]

Escape systems are alien territory unless you have worked round them !!
In the Canberra (metal nav hatch) a/c - the nav hatch could be blown either by operating one of the navs bang seat handles OR by using the jettison switch,in the link I sent you - one can clearly see that the nav hatch has been jettisoned before a wheels up landing was attempted.
We had the same case at Cottesmore,the crew could not get the wheels down and therefore blew the hatch before the wheels up landing

rgds LR

[nazca_steve]

I remember seeing that photo a couple of years ago and wondering why the hatch was blown as SOP for wheels up landings. It was only until someone rightly pointed out, that if the aircraft was lying at an angle upon standstill, there was a good chance the normal cabin hatch would be blocked. Made perfect sense then.

On a Canberra-related, but altogether different theme, not sure if any of you chaps are Flight Simmers, but if so, you might be interested in this:

Flying Stations - quality payware and freeware for FSX/FS2004/SFP1 -> EE Canberra W.I.P thread (http://z13.invisionfree.com/Flying_Stations/index.php?showtopic=51&st=135&#last)

I've been building a series of Cans for the last year and a bit, they are for FS2004, slightly older sim, but still a goodie.

Now back to our regular programme...

[scorpion63]

Pre take off check arm hatch, disarm during after land checks. The hatch switch box has two similar, side by side switches, one of which is guarded, the unguarded switch selects hatch arm and the guarded switch blows the hatch. With the hatch armed, when the seat ejection sequence is initiated the hatch explosive bolts fire and the hatch hopefully will disappear, once it has, the seat can travel up the rails and out into atmosphere. The hatch is also able to be blown without ejection being initiated for the reasons stated by others here, ie; wheels up landing or action requiring escape via the back of the cabin.
Low speed hatch blowing is not recommended as the hatch needs enough forward speed to carry it away, if stationary the hatch will lift a small amount and then very likely fall back into the hole it just left, it's very heavy with sharp edges!!!

[The Eternal JP]

Hiya. I was the last abbo! on the PR9 back in 2000. Spent alot of time flying them over the Balkans, and Afganistan in the final days. Happy to 'talk shop if you need' Cheers

[nazca_steve]

Scorpion, thanks for the clarification on hatch detonation Thinking about that has posed a theoretical question some of you here may be able to answer. Seeing as the hatch needed slipstream to help pull it up and away, what do you think the result of hatch detonation would have been in a flat spin for instance? Would it have cleared the aircraft? On a related note, did any of you ever get into a controlled (or uncontrolled) spin on the Canberra, and if so, what were the effects of centrifugal force on you that you remember?

JP, yes indeed, I would love to talk shop with someone from the 'end of the era'! This would be excellent for the book, to have crew on from the early 50s right through to '06. Will send PM now.

[longer ron]

Hmmm...this thread has dredged up a few semi forgotten things :)
The canberra and its large unpowered rudder had a wind limit for taxying (20knots ?) because it had a hand operated brake lever and used the rudder pedal movement for differential braking (no luxury like nosewheel steering !!) through the Brake Control Valve.
Before engine start the rudder lock was turned upside down - because on that side of the lock was a cut out to allow the rudder tab to move and hence allow rudder pedal movement but with the rudder locked neutral.

Then the 'volunteer' rudder lock party would follow the a/c to the (at Cottesmore) ORP where the a/c would park with engines running.
The 2 party members would then take a set of 'A' frame steps under an engine (aft of u/c leg) and - staying very close to the fuselage would take the steps to the tail and one of em would climb the steps to remove the rudder lock !
Then the rudder lock was carried forward and (after checking that the DV [direct vision] window was open) we would open the crew door and stow the lock in the cockpit,usually with a wave or grin from the pilot !
Just imagine the risk assessment on that nowadays LOL
Although I do not remember doing it that often...definitely not my fave job...Hot and smelly as invariably the a/c was parked crosswind :cool:

[scorpion63]

25 Knot crosswind limit, both take off and landing, 20 knot for banner towing runways over 150feet wide, 15Knots for less than 150feet. Maximum tailwind component 5 Knots.
PR9 may be different, don't have my FRC's to hand

[nazca_steve]

Thanks for the rudder lock story, Baz. Thinking about the cockpit has brought up another loosely related topic. Can anyone here describe the procedure of moving from the nav cabin down to the nose position in-flight. Such as what kind of drills you had for emergency movement, what kind of time it took to shift positions, whether a portable oxygen bottle was needed or if you simply hooked into a regulator down in the nose cone. Any hassles or good anecdotes related to this movement would be good for the book. I have done it myself a couple of times, but that was of course on the ground, normal temperature and with no flying kit on, and I found it hard enough! Would love to hear tales from those that did it for real.

ATB,

Steve

[longer ron]

The Bomb Aimers posn in the B2 nose definitely had an Oxy regulator.
I think there was also an oxy reg for the map readers fold down seat (Rumble Seat) but S63 will be able to confirm/deny !

rgds baz

P.S. hope you got my email ok,have been away since sunday !

[nazca_steve]

Yes, got it thanks, Baz, it was superb and has been duly added to the manuscript for editing. Excellent detail and thanks also for the photos, I will clean them up in Photoshop and send back for your records. It's just been a tad busy of late here at work and I have not had a chance to write a decent reply...same goes for Altercumulus on here, who sent me an excellent email.

In general, a big thanks for everyone who has emailed, PM'd and posted so far - I value everything and am sorting it all out steadily... I will keep 'feeding' questions so please keep it coming is all I ask!

Baz, very quickly back to the oxy reg, bit of a daft question this, but in moving from the nav seat to the prone position, how did you manage at high alt before you plugged into the nose cone reg? Portable bottle or 'hold your breath?' I know it's not far as the crow flies between the two positions, but I was curious regardless.

Steve

[longer ron]

Not sure Steve...managed to avoid flying in B2's :)...I was offered a few trips in em.
I am sure one of the aircrew will supply details for you,but it would probably depend on altitude,if the cabin is pressurised then the the 'Cabin Altitude' is lower than aircraft altitude,jet a/c have a cabin altimeter to confirm cabin altitude and hence to confirm if the pressurisation is working ok.
On the a/c I presently work on...I believe if the a/c is at 40,000' then the cabin altitude is approx 21,000'.
So I guess at lower altitudes one could move around easily as long as pressurisation is ok.
The stuff I emailed was mostly just for background info,sorry about the quality of the photos,I had more but cannot find them,but there are some nice pics on the net and will point them out to you soonish if you have not already seen them !

rgds baz

[Centaurus]

In 1962 I was responsible for the planning and organisation of equipping various RAAF aircraft with a special canopy breaker tool. This followed several fatal accidents with F80 Shooting Stars in the USAF where high speed aborts resulted in over-runs. Ejecting was not an option due old type ejection seat and when in a few cases the aircraft was on fire the unfortunate pilots were unable to open the canopy due damage. The USAF then designed specialised canopy breaker knives with which the pilot could bash his way through the canopy.

At my request the USAF kindly sent us the plans of the knife and after testing them on a Vampire and Sabre canopy we installed them in the cockpit of Sabres, CT4's and Macchi's. Soon afterwards, the canopy breaker saved the life of a Sabre pilot who hit birds on take off at Ubon, Thailand and forced landed. His canopy jammed partially open and the aircraft caught fire. He used the knife to break the canopy and got out safely.

When I proposed the canopy breaker knife should also be installed in the Canberra bomber, the idea was promptly scotched by a Wing Commander at RAAF Dept of Air, who said the knife was no needed as the canopy had explosive bolts to blow the canopy on the ground. But what if the explosive bolts failed to fire?

I wondered at the time if electrical power was needed to actuate the explosive bolts and if the crash landing damaged the electrical contacts or power was cut, the bolts could not be fired. So the canopy breaker knife never went into Canberra. I hope lives were not lost because of that short-sighted personal decision.

[scorpion63]

All electrical power for the ejection sequence comes from battery not aircraft power supply so in the event of a loss of electrical power the hatch and canopy bolts will still activate. There are of course three routes out of a Canberra, exit/entrance door, rear hatch and ejection seat. The double skin canopy on the Canberra would require an axe to break it, a knife would be useless, a crash axe is stowed inside next to the entrance door. The pilots canopy explosive bolts were deactivated many years ago as it was found on ejection the lower leading edge of the canopy could "fold under" decapitating the pilot so the seat now fires through the canopy.

[scorpion63]

"Baz, very quickly back to the oxy reg, bit of a daft question this, but in moving from the nav seat to the prone position, how did you manage at high alt before you plugged into the nose cone reg? Portable bottle or 'hold your breath?' I know it's not far as the crow flies between the two positions, but I was curious regardless."

If you are young and agile no problem! There is a long oxy pipe available for moving around and yes there is a regulator up front. Getting back to the rear cabin in an emergency and strapping back in can be a problem it depends how much time you have and how quickly you can do up enough straps to eject. There are 19 possible combinations of connections to be made, straps, plugs, dinghy etc but not all are needed to eject. The effects of violent aerodynamic forces however could make life very difficult indeed.

[nazca_steve]

Scorpion - that is extremely interesting about deactivation of the pilot's canopy explosive bolts. In all my reading I have never come across that, and I don't believe it is mentioned in the various Pilot's Notes I've read. I am not disputing you, but it is just an interesting and suprising revelation. So with that said, what would be the consequences of ejecting using the leg handle rather than the face blind handles? Would your bone dome offer enough protection punching through the glass? I am assuming the seat would make the initial 'hole', but perhaps you can clarify.

Thanks for the oxy reg/pipe detail, sounds like quite a process moving around the cabin, and I damn sure would not want to try this in a hurry.

[scorpion63]

The seat pan handle is the method of choice as it is quicker and easier to get too, the top of the seat will make a very big hole in the canopy and shatter it.
Not all Canberra's have the canopy cartridges removed and as is always the case with the Canberra no two are the same.

[Centaurus]

The double skin canopy on the Canberra would require an axe to break it, a knife would be useless,

The canopy of the Vampire Mk 31 was double skin as well. Saw a film of the canopy breaker knife testing on the Vampire and the pilot smashed through this canopy in around 20 seconds no problem.

[nazca_steve]

Centaurus,

many thanks for sharing those details about the canopy breaker knife and the decision not to adopt it. Seems very odd considering it had already proven its worth, as surely it would not have been such an expense to equip aircrew with it despite the explosive bolts. I wonder now if this knife is the same knife-looking object I have seen in photos of Argentine Canberra crews, as shown in the photo below. I always thought this possibly some kind of survival kit knife but does this look anything like the canopy breaker knife? My suspicion is that this may look a little small for the job...

(PM also coming your way)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/nazca_steve/Canberras/random002.jpg

[scorpion63]

What you see on the flying suit leg patch is the standard aircrew survival knife, primarily for cutting parachute rigging lines but also anything else a knife is useful for, the handle also has a very useful notch in it perfect for opening beer bottles! The canopy on a Canberra is considerably thicker than a Vampire as it needs to support a larger area of pressure differential so a knife is totally out of the question. It's hard enough to break with an axe as it bounces off when you hit it so the trick is to use the escape axe at the edge of the canopy where it meets the fuselage metalwork. This cutting area is marked in black with a "chop here" placard.

[BSweeper]

LR

You are right about WJ731, the Canberra B2T. I flew it a couple of times on the OCU in 1976. The nav fit was quite advanced compared to a normal B2. It had, IIRC, a Green Satin (or was it Violet Picture but I don't think so) doppler along with its associated GPI Mark 2. Twin VOR, TACAN and ADF.

BS

[BSweeper]

Scorp 63. Your memory is the same as mine. There was a long oxygen pipe used for getting around. Of course for non-bombing missions there was no need to be in the bomb aimers position at high level and I only ever did low level ones. I was lucky(?) to be small enough to stand next to the pilot for low level navigation (and I could see exactly what speed/heading he was actually flying). However we used (on 7 Sqn) to practise low level aborts (which the Nav Leader used to call whenever he got lost so he could get a fix!) which meant going to the spare back seat, doing up dinghy and lap straps as a min in prep for banging out. I am not sure we would have survived with that but what was the alternative?

On rangers, the rear cabin would eventually ice up and your carefully prepared chart (ready for marking by the Nav Leader) would get "rained" upon in the descent, ruining it. BTW, cabin pressurisation was standard fifties design. Half the altitude plus 2000 i.e. at 45K, 24,500. The max limit for decompression sickness was 25K (but it can start to set in after 18K)and after long flights, aching shoulders and elbows were common.

There were several incidents of the rear hatch being (inadvertantly) blown off. This led to the guarding of the firing switch which was inexplicably next to the arming switch (so much for design). I also seem to remember experiments with what was known as the "frangible" hatch but never flew with one.

BS

[nazca_steve]

This is all highly interesting stuff, thanks for sharing this everyone. Comments on 'real life' in the cabin show a side to the Canberra that you don't usually read in books. Regarding the 'freeze' side of the bake or freeze equation, what was usually worn on flights in the cooler climes? Did you try and dress for the occasion as it were, or just tough it out with regulation gear and the flying suit?

Scorpion, thanks also for clarifying the knife and use of. Centaurus, many thanks for the full (and brilliantly written) story of the canopy breaker knife trial. Entertaining and informative, cheers for sending it over.

BS Sweeper, I take it by 'rangers' you are referring to Lone Rangers down to Rhodesia before UDI - would love to hear some more about them if possible.

[BSweeper]

Steve,

We always wore standard "goon" (i.e. immersion) suits though you could get electrically heated socks. I never bothered as I never fancied anything electrical next to the skin - and you never knew if the ground crew were upset with you! To be honest, the max flight length was about 3.30 (see below) and I never really got cold and with the basic nav gear there was plenty of work to do.

Sorry by "rangers", I did mean Lone Rangers which was a catch all phrase for any long range overseas flight on your own (to anywhere).

I remember trying to brief the duty authoriser (actually the one I "tussled" with) about a particular flight and he just stopped me and said, "I don't care what you do - just stay airborne as long as possible - we need the hours". The pilot and I thought we would experiment with a cruise climb over the Scillies followed by an endurance descent at PLE (Prudent Limit of Endurance) back into SM.On landing, after getting to FL515 and 4.15 hrs, we received another bollowing since the (civilian) ground crew had to stay late to see us in and were getting double pay.

[HarvestReaper]

Steve, From my memory of testing the canopy jettison system, the Master s/w armed the system and Jettison s/w fired the canopy bolts. The operation of the rear hatch is a mirror of the canopy system.The operation of the control column explosive bolt was operated by a lever on the left hand consol. During my time on Canberras there was no initiation of the canopy or hatch systems by pulling the ejection seat handles. As stated in previous posts the jettison s/w was a guarded s/w in the control unit.
The tip tanks were also jettisoned by explosive bolts.

[nazca_steve]

Many thanks HarvestReaper for the insight. I was under the impression from Pilot's Notes, that provided that the canopy/column snatch master was armed, you could pull the seat handles to jettison the canopy and eject the seat in sequence without having to manually jettison the canopy first. You say this was never SOP during your time -was this because it was safer to blow the canopy off first to ensure proper clearance, then eject?

[FAN BLADE]

Served at Cottesmore between 1970 -1972 as an A Tech P, initially on 231 OCU and then 360 Sqn.

One funny story comes to mind after all these years, we had a rigger on the OCU who after meeting one of the local girls (Lay-By Lil from Oakham) at the Thursday night bob in the Flying Fox Club, he decided to take her for some horizontal entertainment in one of the B2’s. After driving out of the camp, he took the back road to the lay-by opposite Pan 20 where there happened to be a B2 parked. They both leap over the fence and he uses his aircraft key to unlock the cockpit door. Once inside, they are lying on the bomb aimer’s cushion in the nose and getting down to business and unknown to them, the snowdrops were doing their nightly drive around the airfield to ensure all was well when they noticed the nose of this aircraft bobbing up and down. The rigger and Lay-By Lil that night got the biggest almighty wake-up call when the snowdrops torch shone through the Perspex nose. A ride back to the guardroom in the Landrover for both of them and he was on a charge in front of the boss several days later and fined 10 Shilling’s. :D:D:D

Another event whilst on 360, was the time one of the aircraft lost its ECM tip tanks, I believe this was due to water dripping through the DV window and shorting out the tip tank jettison switch. The aircraft was in the hangar for ages after this event undergoing investigation.

One more event, two riggers were sent out one night to do a crew swap on a T4, they ended up marshalling one of 115 Sqn’s Argosys into the pan – OC 115 was not a happy bunny. They ended up on tea bar duties and oxy bottles changes for a month.

[HarvestReaper]

Steve, As an electrician I cannot tell you what the Sop for the ejection sequene was.See AP4326b pilots notes for B2 etc to clarify the point you mention, unless at the later stages of that mark a mod was brought out to enable jettison through the cockpit canopy, the sequence would have been jettison canopy first. I seem to remember that the rear hatch might have been frangible or at least some of them.
May be the Mk 8 & PR 9 systems were configured so that pulling the seat handle jettisoned the canopy.

[nazca_steve]

I took your advice, and dug out my T.4 Pilot's Notes, which read in Part 1, Chapter 10, page 5:

17. Jettisoning in conjunction with the ejection systems. Provided the CANOPY/SNATCH MASTER switch is on, the canopy is automatically jettisoned when either firing handle on either pilot's seat is operated.

The nav cabin hatch was the same according to the notes.

My guess is the other variants are similiar...I have a B.2 and B(I).12 PN somewhere I will double check with.

**UPDATE:

So, after digging out the B.2 PN, firstly it is somewhat less descriptive on ejecting, but the main difference is it indeed does state the canopy jettison/snatch switch should be pressed first "and then the pilot's seat ejected." It is also stated the navigator must double-fold his table first before following the same procedure (I'd like to hear from some of the former navs on here about that drill). So there does seem to have been a change in notes between the B.2 and the T.4 - I do not have the PR.3 to verify when this happened. Another point worth noting is that my T.4 notes are 4th edition compared to the B.2 2nd edition I have.

On a somewhat related, but morbid note, in the research I have been doing on Argentine usage of the Canberra, it is possible that the navigator of B.62 serial B-108 may have attempted a 'manual' bale out when shot down on the night of the 13th June 1982. When hit by a Sea Dart fired from HMS Cardiff, the impact struck behind the pressurised bulkhead, somewhere below the No.1 fuel tank. The resultant damage apparently caused the failure of the nav's ejection seat, of which he informed his pilot. Cutting this tragic story short for this post, in the end the pilot was forced to eject alone, and the nav seemingly went in with the aircraft. It has recently come to light however from an eyewitness on the UK side who saw it descending in a flat spin, that it appeared to be trailing something burning in the area of the cockpit. I have since wondered whether the poor nav blew the hatch and attempted to bale out but got caught up somehow. I would be interested to hear from those with flat spin experience whether it would have even been possible to extract yourself from the seat against centrifugal force and do this.

[longer ron]

I started a thread on the Military Aircrew forum about Slim Pocock's canberra ejection,to see if anybody had any more info/details of this unusual ejection,no luck so far but thought I would link it to here in case anybody on here can help.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/477593-flt-lt-slim-pococks-canberra-ejection.html

rgds LR

[longer ron]

Re ejection sequencing - this short paragraph copied from a T4 BOI report...

The Navigator decided to eject as the a/c yawed right and pulled his seat pan firing handle,he then saw the hatch bolts detonate and experienced a normal ejection sequence...

It was not unknown for an experienced canberra nav to 'bang out' without waiting to be ordered so.
The very dapper Max M was a staff navigator with 231 OCU - in B2 WJ674 on night assymetric training,on approach into cottesmore the student pilot lost control - and as he felt the a/c roll and buffet... Max told the pilot to eject and then ejected himself.
He landed near 'The Fox' on the A1 and popped in for a drink,he had seen the pilots 'chute stream and thought he was safe,however - sadly the pilot did not survive.

Would max have had time to manually blow the hatch and then eject ??
It was a relatively slow ejection sequence on the canberra,and I believe that the nav hatch was blown during certain emergencies for 2 reasons ... (1) [as already mentioned] to aid ground egress...and (2) to make any subsequent ejection faster !

rgds LR

[nazca_steve]

So we know on the T.4 at least you could pull eject via the seat pan handles alone - I would think this would have been implemented as the years went on to other marks but would like to hear from others on what they remember. Speaking of T.4 ejections, I was talking with a US Navy pilot recently who asked me the question if there was any kind of separating rod mechanism to prevent any accidental collision when the pilot and instructor banged out together. He told me on some of their side-by-side trainers that a rod would fire between the seat thus ensuring enough separation that they would not hit each other on ejection. Did the T.4 have that, or was there a delay built in for simultaneous ejections...I would think not as every second counts, right? Frankly I don't know how the front-seaters could ever eject at the same time in a T.4 as the arrangement is pretty damn cramped.

Thanks for posting that link LR, very interesting thread and I am glad you were able to confirm the details you needed.

[longer ron]

A little more info on T4 ejection,quoted from an older tragic thread on prune...
Originally posted by Ginseng

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/143459-canberra-unsafe-1950-still-unsafe.html


You appear to be rather out of date on your T4 tech exam. The hatch is not frangible, it is solid, and jettisoned by explosive bolts. This requires no separate action, provided that the hatch safety switch is made live; the hatch is then jettisoned by the intial handle pull. As it departs, it withdraws a restrictor from the seat, allowing the seat gun to fire in sequence as the pull is continued. The pilots canopy is indeed jettisoned, but again this is automatic once the canopy/snatch master switch is set to live (as is firing of the snatch unit to sever and withdraw the control columns).

None of this, of course, tells us anything about thursday's tragic events. However, it is evident from the photographs that:

The Navigator's hatch has jettisoned and the seat has fired (I know - talk about stating the bleedin' obvious).

The pilots' canopy has jettisoned.

Both pilots' seats have fired.

Can't vouch for the snatch unit, but the BoI will know by now.

There is no command ejection system, each takes his turn in sequence by his own actions. It is recommended that the pilots avoid, if possible, simultaneous ejection. Not that you have too much time to worry about the niceties.

Posted to head off more uninformed speculation. Forgive me, but as a former colleague of one of the guys and an acquaintance of the other two, I am finding it difficult to keep my temper. Yes, of course we all want to know - but we are achieving nothing useful here.


Ginseng

[nazca_steve]

There it is: 'There is no command ejection system, each takes his turn in sequence by his own actions. It is recommended that the pilots avoid, if possible, simultaneous ejection. Not that you have too much time to worry about the niceties.'

Cheers for that, LR.

[longer ron]

I thought you might like that sentence Steve !

The thing is - and getting back to the Navs Hatch,I do actually think that originally all the Canberra Nav Hatches had to be manually blown and then the seat handle could be pulled,so the poor nav would have his hands up to the hatch switches and then onto the seat handle.
So (like you) I believe that there was a modification carried out on at least some a/c marks to make it a one pull operation,but still able to blow the hatch manually if required.
I have not found any references so far but on post 114 of the above link Flown -it writes...


I was posted (appointed) to RAF Waton in late 1966 when we formed 360 out of separate RN and RAF ECM squadrons. We had to wait for the T17s to appear so flew the RAF's T4s and B2s while we waited. 3 RN crew got airborne on pilot training one evening and the pilots got the engine failure somewhat wrong. The nav ejected but it is thought tried to beat the system and was killed.
How and why?
Well, the canopy was ejected by a switch on the left side wall which was wire locked and gated. The cover had to lifted away from the switch before it could be moved up to fire the canopy. A TWO handed operation. Then you could fire the seat. When first introduced to the setup we tried to work out ways to do it one handed and it is thought that the nav (observer RN) may have tried to do just that. If so the canopy may not have fired (or cleared the plane I don't recall exactly) prior to his seat firing. His death I believe created a redesign of the system and the nav and others through the years may well owe their lives to someone loosing his.


Which is the only reference I have found so far to a possible mod on the nav escape system ! (for Canopy - read Hatch)

rgds LR

[longer ron]

Of course they also tried a 'Frangible' hatch as well ...this copied from 'Flight' 1956,but this also was not without problems and I do not think lasted very long (cannot remember why)...

Canberra Navigators' Ejection
To improve the emergency escape facilities of the English Elec-
tric Canberra B.2, a frangible Fibreglass hatch to replace the
metal unit now fitted over the navigator's compartment has been
designed by the Martin-Baker Aircraft Co., Ltd. At the same
time the company has developed from the existing Canberra seats
a new fully-automatic ejection seat fitted with a duplex drogue,
an 83ft/sec telescopic ejection-gun, arm-rests, and a secondary
firing handle on the front of the seat pan. Thus equipped, the
navigator should be able to fire himself through the frangible
hatch and descend safely from almost any altitude. Canberras at
present have the Mk 1 non-automatic seat, and parachutes carry
barometric rip-cord release devices.
It has been found by experience that, without the explosive
hood-jettisoning gear linked to the seat-ejection mechanism, it is
preferable to eject through a canopy rather than to jettison it
first. The crew member is thus protected from air blast while he is
reaching for the firing handle, and a number of pre-ejection actions,
with their associated delays, are eliminated. When g forces are
operating on the aircraft, as may well be the case in an emergency,,
any pre-ejection action may become excessively difficult andv
precious time be lost. It is not, in any case, necessary for a good
ejection that the canopy should come away cleanly.
Following a series of successful test ejections, on static rigs and
in the air, a demonstration in the presence of Service representatives
was given at Chalgrove airfield on January 19th. A
"standard dummy man," using the fully-automatic seat described
above, was ejected through the new frangible hatch from a Service
Canberra flying at about 300 kt at 400ft. The aircraft was piloted
by Capt. J. E. D. Scott, the company's chief test pilot. The test is
stated to have been successful in showing the practicability of
ejection through the new Fibreglass navigator's hatch, and also
in demonstrating the advantages of the procedure. Both the Fibreglass
hatch and the new ejection seat have been designed to be
easily and economically fitted as a retrospective modification

[nazca_steve]

This is extremely interesting, LR. I have seen photos of Rhodesian Canberras with a white-painted nav hatch, to which I think might have been one of these frangible hatches. Not sure however if this was the case, but will check with Mike Hamence on it. Again, as has been pointed out several times on here, this the beauty of the Can as such a long-serving old girl - no two are the same, and even if this mod was introduced as Flight points out in 1956, we don't know yet how standard this mod became. At least a lot of photos point to the hatch continuing to be blown clear off for the SOP reasons previously mentioned.

Blasting through a canopy mind you must be one hell of an experience...not necessarily one I would relish, but then again, the alternative would make you not think twice about it.

[Wander00]

Longer ron - can you check you PMs please - I think we may have been on 360 at the same time. Cheers

[longer ron]

Wanderoo
Longer ron - can you check you PMs please - I think we may have been on 360 at the same time. Cheers


And replied to Sir:)

[Wander00]

Longer Ron - thanks - we were around at different times

W

[HarvestReaper]

Steve, Some more info on the canopy ejection system, this is an extract from RAF Watton-info,Flying with 527 Sqdn by Ralph Swift.
The Watton Canberra‘s were B2’s and had ejection seats for the single pilot and both navigators but in both cases it was a requirement to get rid of an explosive canopy prior to ejection. In the case of the training Canberra, the T4, although the navigators had ejection seats the cramped cockpit for both pilots did not afford enough room for ejection seats and the only way out for the pilots was to slide the right hand seat backward, open the side door in the fuselage and bale out conventionally. In a situation that required the pilots to abandon the aircraft it was a very hit and miss affair and when the Canberra later had a problem with runaway tailplane actuators I think it proved impossible to get out in the time available.
Reference the tailplane trim actuators, the wiring for the actuator was unbroken i.e. one continuous length with no plug breaks from cockpit s/w's to actuators as part of the fix for the runaway trim. Changing this wiring was not fun as you can imagine.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon9.gif

[longer ron]

Just to clarify the above post,the comment about the pilots not having ejection seats of course only applies to the extremely early T4 a/c,The 'Swing' seat for the instructor overcame that particular problem fairly quickly and All RAF T birds were fitted with bang seats as standard,the early a/c being modified ASAP

rgds LR

[morton]

Firstly can I bring to everyone’s attention the fact that Steve has edited his opening post? In summary, half the proceeds of the book will go to the RAF Benevolent Fund. A good gesture Steve, thanks for that and I hope the book goes well!

A couple of stories.

This first one is not directly related but it might provoke others memories. In the late 70’s a T17 flat-spotted it’s belly at Coningsby. The MU spent about a Year / 18 Months replacing all the worn away bits and then came the job of putting all the boxes back in and checking systems that had lain dormant for a prolonged period. As such the guys from Wyton Canberra Servicing Flight went across during the last 4 to 6 weeks of the fix. In the latter stages I went across for a week to do some electrical bits.

I found that we were lodged at a B&B in Woodhall Spa – miles away from Coningsby and civilisation as I knew it. So, the first night there, I asked the others who had lodged there a few weeks where the nearest entertainment was. I was advised that there was a Pub at the other end of the village. I was also advised that the landlady was a bit stern and did not like late comings and goings. Anyway, a few of us sallied forth and my abiding recollection is of walking for ages along a long straight road to the Pub. It must have been a good evening because, when we eventually came back, I had a severe fit of the giggles and I insisted that others should share my good humour – even if they had been asleep for a couple of hours!

The next morning I came down to breakfast and was confronted by a stony faced landlady. She advised me that my presence was no longer wanted in her establishment and I must make other accommodation arrangements immediately.

Oh Dear! What to do?! Well, the upshot was that, for the rest of the week, I found myself billeted in a Pub opposite a chip shop and only five minutes from work! I never did write to thank her!

The second story is an object lesson in never volunteering. This is the condensed version. Rang at home at 22:30 on a Friday and asked if I and a couple of others could go and do a job on a Canberra stuck in Portugal. Foolishly I volunteered. So 01:00 Saturday we left Wyton for Lyneham where we jumped on a Herc. Flew to Oporto Airport in Portugal and spent three hours on the pan fixing the Aircraft and seeing it off. Surprised to find we were then going to Gibraltar and not Lyneham. Landed at Gibraltar where everything was shut for Siesta and we were left alone on the pan for three or more hours. Finally flew back to the UK. Arrived Wyton Sunday 02:30 having been to two Countries and saw two airfields. During that time we never had sight of a Bar or even any ‘Duty Frees’. To say it was a disappointing trip would be an understatement!

And lastly…
It was a Friday afternoon – isn’t it always a Friday afternoon?! 1979 and the Canberra Servicing Flight at Wyton has a Hangar full of T4, T17 and PR9 Canberra’s. The Chief is on Holiday for a fortnight, the Sergeant is going on holiday after cease work and I will be in charge of the Electrical section next week. Right, a cunning plan! Next week we will be short of Electricians so today I will try and get some of the niff-naff job cards done so that I can give myself more time to multi-task on whatever admin needs to be done next week as well as the normal Hangar jobs.

Trawling through all the out-standing job cards I managed to clear a few on the other Aircraft in the Hangar. I then came to the PR9 which was within a day or two of completion.

One of the jobs to be done during the latter part of a PR9 check was to see that the supply to the Engine start system (Avpin) was OK. This was done by removing one of the Hangar safety (dummy) fuses, refitting the proper fuse and pressing the start button. A test light in the disconnected start system plug would then come on. If all was OK then the fuse was removed and the dummy refitted. The plug was then connected, wire locked and the card could be signed off.

I noticed that the Starboard Engine start system card had been signed up but the Port Engine one had not. I asked if this job could be done and was told all the bits were back in and it could be tested

A slight digression to explain the pertinent details of a PR9. The fighter style canopy is off-set to the left. This leaves room for a large Fuel control and Engine start panel on the right hand console. The whole console is pivoted so it can swing outwards and downwards to reveal a pit that you can jump into with a little bit of jiggling about. A fuse panel is on the rear facing wall of this pit.

So off I go and get the test lamp and connect it up to the Port start system. I ask one of the riggers fitting some panels on the Starboard wing if he will look at the light to tell me if the system is OK. I then wiggle down into the pit and, looking aft, I fit the Port fuse (the Port & Starboard start fuses are adjacent to each other). Rather than wiggling out and looking to see what I am doing – and also to save a little bit of time - I half pull the panel up, reach up and round to blindly press the Port start switch.

A tremendous noise fills my world and reverberates round the Hangar! What on earth has happened? I am now acutely aware that the Starboard Engine start system worked successfully! I switch the Battery off and vacate the Aircraft. Luckily I had checked that the Fuel Cocks were shut and the other Hangar safety fuses were in place beforehand.

So what went wrong? With the benefit of hindsight the answer was easy. I was in a rush to get jobs done before people knocked off on the Friday afternoon. In my haste I made two wrongs that definitely did not make a right! Sitting in the pit looking aft I put the left hand fuse in. In my eyes it was the Port one but, as you have now gathered, it was the Starboard one. I tried to save a minute or two by not getting out of the pit to push the button and then have to get back in it to remove the live fuse and replace the dummy one and then wiggle back out again. So I remained in the Pit, still facing aft and reached up to press the start button furthest away. Again in my eyes this was the Port one.

For those who hadn’t heard the start cycle, which would have been no-one as the sound resonated really well inside the closed Hangar, the smell of spent Avpin would have also attracted people like moths to a flame. Avpin has a distinctive but not particularly nice smell so the Hangar doors were opened and a gathering of the curious ensued. Wingco Engineering happened to be in the area and asked what was going on. When told he apparently said two words “Charge him!”.

Meanwhile, back in the Hangar… As I knew what had happened, and had smelt enough spent Avpin from working on Lightnings, I did not need to stay with the gathering masses milling round the Aircraft. So I quietly walked away and over to the nearby ablutions. A fitting place to stand and ponder my career going down the toilet!

Nowadays there would be a Human Factors inquiry to see what lessons could be learnt and measures introduced to prevent it happening again. Obviously it would not have been my fault, it would have been the system or the procedures or the culture. Back then it was a slapped wrist and career limiting – or, more exactly in my case, career stagnation. And rightly so! I was a grown up doing a grown-ups job and I made a mistake. I was lucky that no one was hurt and it was only my pride and promotion that suffered. It could have been a lot worse!

[nazca_steve]

Hello Morton,

Many thanks for sharing your stories with the greater group and for the best wishes on the book. It's been a bit hectic of late, as I have been finishing off a series of virtual Canberras for Flight Sim 2004, of which are now complete and I can return to this worthy project!

For all those that have sent over photos, I will now have some time to devote to finishing up the clean-up and sending them back over to you. I have been adding your written contributions to the manuscript but will have to chase some of you down still for ranks, real names and locations!

LR and Harvest Reaper, cheers for all the details on ejection systems of late, and for filling me in on the early T.4. I had heard something about old leather seats in these, and some of the Aussies on the Canberra Crazy forum were mentioning their B.21s had them but I am not sure on this. Frankly it still seems amazing to me you can squeeze two bang seats in a Canberra pit let alone one, and that they even had inches to spare to shift the pupil pilot to the left. It blows my mind, yet I know it can be done as I had to 'make' this very modification when I made my virtual T.4. I wonder if Teddy Petter ever imagined this need would arise when I he laid out the A.1? Amazing foresight in his design.

Speaking of the T.4, we have heard several anecdotes about the bomb bay and even upper equipment bay being used for 'unorthodox' cargos- did anyone ever have experience of the T.4 nose cone ever being used for anything? From what I know, it seems it was always left essentially empty apart from the pitot head wiring and some box-looking objects.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/nazca_steve/Canberras/trainers_026.jpg

Ok, all for now, I will back on here soon with a new line of questioning no doubt. By the way, does anyone know any former armourers that I could get in touch with? I am light on the weapons and stores aspect of things and would love to do some digging there.

[Dave Vickery]

Hi Steve, It just so happens that I had recently started writing my RAF Life Story for my children when I came upon your posting here whilst doing some research.

After Boy Entrant training from 1952 to 1954 at RAF Yatesbury/Cosford I was posted to RAF Bassingbourn and the B2s in 1954. After that I spent most of my time on PR types, PR3 and T4 at RAF Merryfield and RAF Wyton. PR7 and PR9 on which I did the acceptance checks into service at RAF Wyton. At the same time I serviced Valiant B/K/PR1 of 543 Sqn and the Victor B/PR1s of Radar Recce Flight, later to become 51 Sqn. I was also on Christmas Island with 100 Sqn Canberra PR7s for Operation Grapple 'H' Bombs in 1957. At RAF Bruggen in Germany we had the PR7 and B(I)6, both of which I was involved with. I then left the Canberras after 13 years.

Upon returning from RAFG I went to RAF Marham TTF/232OCU on the Mk1 Victor Tankers for four years then on to RAF Kinloss as a Nimrod Crew Chief for six years. I was demobbed from there in 1977 on my 40th birthday.

I did my degree during those last few years, graduating in 1978. I worked for about a year at Marconi, Rochester on RAF/Naval Sonar systems, then lectured for the Aircraft Engineering Training Wing (REME) at Middle Wallop until promotion to the Royal School of Artillery, Air Defence Wing in 1981. There I remained until MOD forced my retirement in 1997.

In recent years I have read much about the USAAF 8th Air Force and RAF Bomber Command in general. My hobby is taking off in my caravan and visiting the old airfields of those two commands. To date, i have visited and photographed the memorials at 42 of the 69 8th Air Force airfields in UK. I visit RAF Bomber Command airfields when I see them but next year I hope to work through the various groups of the command as a whole. It is very interesting and I am sometimes amazed at what I find.

Well dear chap, my intention was to offer you full access to my life on Canberras but I seem to have moved into waffle mode. 'Once a lecturer always a lecturer' I suppose. Please feel free to contact me and I shall be happy to pass on any material you would like to have.

Take care all, Dave.

[nazca_steve]

Dear Dave,

many thanks for getting in touch. I will duly send you a PM shortly with my email address for further contact, or we can continue posting on here as you wish.

I would love to hear more about your time with the Canberra, and so hopefully the questions I posted on the first page can serve as starting point for you, if need be. Above all, could you let me know your rank, job title and sqns served on for crediting in the book (sounds dangerously like a wartime interrogation, I know!)

I will say I am particularly interested in hearing more about your memories from Operation Grapple (you are the first in this project with this experience) and the B(I).6 at Bruggen. I assume then that you were on 213 Sqn for this; I am currently in contact with another ex-213 electrician and I wonder if your paths crossed. You also mentioned 51 Sqn, of course this always perks my ears - were the B.6 (mods) on strength then or was that after your time with them? Of course any and all Canberra-related stories are very much welcomed, these are just some of the salient points that jumped out at me from your post.

Like you, I have a fascination with 'ghost' or abandoned airfields, having grown up in Cambs. and with the same interest in the USAAF 8th AF. I think if I had stayed in the UK, I would have gone the same route as you with the caravan and trodden many a field in similar pursuits. My life has now taken a very different turn in the very different world of southern California over the last 8 years, but it is hobbies and projects like this that keep me in touch with my roots. Needless to say I am suitably envious of your own hobby! Now you have my 'waffle mode' as well! Perhaps we can have a separate chat about that and the things you have found.

Best regards,

Steve

[nazca_steve]

Shifting topics a bit, I am a bit light for content in the following areas:

1) Did anyone here have experience with target tug flying (TT.18s, B.2s) or AI training with the T.11? I would love to hear something about these tasks, especially the latter, as it seems those with T.11/19 are hard to come by.

2) 51 Sqn ops with the B.6 (mod). I know, I know, the chances are slim of me getting anything on this, but I have to try.

3) Armourers. I have just been put in touch with a former 213 Sqn armourer, but would love to hear from any others lurking on this forum, particularly those that worked on the interdictor Canberras and the B.15/16.

4) Pilots who flew the interdictor Canberras and particularly any pilot that ever fired the 20mm gunpack.

5) Anyone who trained foreign aircrew on Canberras.

Ok, that will do for now, I have to list these areas as much for myself, so as to remember where I need to research next!

Steve

[options770]

Steve if you PM me I will let you have personal details and the odd story :O

Joe

[options770]

One Monday morning en-route to Kinloss from St Mawgan via the Hebrides range in a TT18... We were streaming the Rushton, in cloud, while flying north parallelling the coast.
Happily listening to radio 1 on the ADF I heard those ominous crackling sounds.
I saw the lightning coming straight at me and it struck about 6 inches in front of the canopy, ran through the aircraft, down the cable and blasted the target to pieces.
The sequence as I remember it was a loud 'Bang', I said 'SH*T' rather loudly, the aircraft lurched violently and the ensueing silence was broken by a voice from the back saying 'are you still there'.
That was Monday, on Tuesday I returned from the range with a bird strike on the starboard tip tank. Wednesday another lightning strike. Guess it wasn't my week so Thursday instead of flying we did a full compass swing on the aircraft!!!
Friday returned to St Mawgan via the range without a problem.:)

I suppose streaming 5 miles of lightning conductor was asking for trouble!:bored:

[nazca_steve]

Flipping heck, that is one cracking story, Joe! (excuse the pun). Yours is officially the first double lightning (and bird) strike anecdote of this project. Perhaps a dubious honour but exciting nonetheless to read about. You say you heard crackling sounds through the ADF - was this typical for entering electrical storms? Did you know there was a storm about when you entered the cloud? Whatever the case it must have been a sight seeing it coming at you. Was there any other damage to the electrical systems in the a/c as a result of either strike?

PM on its way now.

Steve

[options770]

To be honest had we had warning of electrical activity we wouldn't have streamed in cloud. There was no apparent damage from either strike apart from the small entry hole but we did the compass swing as a precaution. Kinloss did not have a suitable compass for the swing so we had to go to Lossiemouth to borrow one from 8 Sqn.

This involved a drive in the deployment vehicle (a Bedford CF) which had just been condemned as unroadworthy by the MT section and given back to us because there was no alternative. The instructions from the MTO were that we were authorised to use it, but if we got back without incident the paperwork was to be destroyed and the journey had never happened!

The trip up there was fine, we had a few beers with the Shackleton mates, went to the local chippy and drove back with several pints of beer in the back. Needless to say that because it was my fault I had to drive while the others did the drinking. The dip headlights failed on the way back and we drove on sidelights or full beam as appropriate. Beer got spilled in the back and there was a stink of fish and chips. When we reboarded it in the morning to go flying it was awful but the groundcrew (civilians from Airworks) cleaned it while we were flying and we were very grateful.

The compass swing was uneventful and none of the other instruments seemed to have suffered from the lightning, I suppose that is the advantage of mechanical aircraft rather than these modern electrical/computer beasts.

[options770]

While the lamp is still swinging :)

One Friday morning we were doing practice interceptions under the control of a Shackleton near Lundy Island when we got a message from 18 Group that a Russian submarine was being towed through the English Channel and they wanted photographs but couldn't locate it.

The Shackleton was retasked and repositioned to try and find it and the whole of 7 Sqn was tasked with getting photographs. We flew back to St Mawgan for lunch and refuel then launched to follow the others. Every aircraft we had was in the air, each equipped with any camera we could beg, borrow or steal and a pair of gyro stabilised binoculars. The sub was spotted and we all flew past taking our photos without compromising maritime distress signals by orbiting too many times.


On another occasion while having a few days in Gibraltar we were asked to stay on and shepherd 2 Hunters back to Brawdy, it was to be the end of the deployment for them. In the interim, four Russian Nanuchka fast patrol boats were transiting the straits and we were sent to find and photograph them. We launched seperately but met up with the Hunters and did a nice formation fly through the convoy. I got some good pictures of the Hunters up close and personal, I will have to see if I can find them.

For the transit to Brawdy there was a difference in our cruise speeds so the Hunters go airborne first and we chased them to Portugal, I flew at contrail level so they could see me and we joined and flew loose battle formation back to England using whichever Navigation equipment worked best for our location. We landed at Brawdy to drop off their luggage before returning to St Mawgan.


It seems that Gibraltar was different for me, on another occasion after a weekend on the rock we set off for home. As the Nav got a fix he asked me which way we were pointing and I read him the compass heading - which was as requested. After another 10 minutes he did another check and discovered that the compass was way out, I decided that we could not risk missing England on the way north using only the emergency compass. So we put out a Pan call, got no response, did it again and got an answer from a Hercules who relayed for me. Still no reponse so made a freecall warning all in the vicinity that I was turning south and descending to VFR below cloud. We didn't hit anything but when we did sight land it was Tunis airport in our 10 o'clock position, a quick left turn and a coastal crawl got us safely back to Gibraltar.

I spoke to the Sqn and they decided to send a shepherd aircraft out the next day, it arrived and was found to have a leaking nose oleo so a third aircraft was despatched with a spare oleo.
Now we had 3 aircraft I was in a TT18, there was a T4 and a T19.
The T19 didn't have tip tanks so was limited on fuel. There was low cloud at about 600 ft so we would leave as a 30 second stream with me sandwiched between the T19 in the lead and the T4 behind. I got airborne and had a noswheel red so kept the speed down and called the problem. The T19 said goodbye, he didn't have fuel to loiter, the T4 had overtaken me in cloud as I found out when we both burst into sunlight at 2000ft. We circled the rock while he checked if I was clean, which I was. We set off in trail of the T19 about 200 miles behind. Spanish air traffic would not accept that we were now 2 entities and insisted on giving clearances to the leader, we flew very carefully at intermediate levels throught he airways.
When we reached the UK the weather was poor with lots of cloud so the only way I could descend safely was in close formation with the T4. If I lost him I was in big trouble. We flew a pairs cloud penetration and he dropped me on short finals at St Mawgan, I was very grateful that the pilot in the T4 was one of the most experienced pilots on the Sqn. I didn't mention that I had never flown close formation in the Canberra before!!!

Now that reminds be about a trip to Cyprus...but maybe I'll save that for later.:)

[nazca_steve]

Hello Joe,

brilliant stuff as always. It's been a bit of a busy couple of days at work, but I did get your email and thanks very much for that. I will send a proper reply to it, and these posts in the next few days. Needless to say I found these accounts very interesting, especially the latter one with the group return from Gib and three different variants in this group at that. The Bedford story was a good one too, as you say, very good of the Airwork personnel to have cleaned it up.

Anyway, heading to bed shortly, will reply in detail when there's more daylight :)

[Steve Bond]

Hello Steve,

I have been following this thread with fascination; you are getting some great stuff, so perhaps I can pitch in. I agree that the Canberra story has not yet been told properly, so your aim is spot on.

My only personal connection (despite 22 years in the RAF) is as a cadet spending an Easter camp at 231 OCU Bassingbourn in 1960 and being staggered by the number of Canerras littering the airfield. More importantly for you, I have a huge number of photographs, plus a number of very good friends with Canberrra experience. These include; a USAF engineer who worked on most B-57 variants, including a Vietnam tour; a navigator in the early days with Bomber Command squadrons at Upwood; and a pilot on 216 Squadron in RAFG with some amusing/alarming stories about the B(I).6 variant and its tactical nuclear role.

If any of this is of interest, please send me a private message rather than clogging up this thread.

Good luck and best regards

Steve Bond

[Wander00]

Options 770 reminds me of two experiences. I was a(the on ly") first tourist on 360 when it formed, having been given a slightly truncated "Strike" course at Bassingbourn. About a year in with the T17s up and running we briefed for aan ECM sortie for 4 aircraft. End of the brief, "Any Questions" - Put my hand up and admitted that I had never flown the Canberra in formation. No problem came the reply - you fly in the slot. Interesting day.

Second one was a 6 ship airborne in the SWAPPS when we hera Shacks being diverted to Gibraltar or somweher, as the whole country was going out in fog. The exercise was cancelled and we were all recalled to St Mawgan, but I ended up at the top of the stack - only problem was that I was the only "whitecard" in the formation. By the time I started down the slope there was a cloudbase of 150'. By this time there were no diversions so it was "sh1t or bust". As a crew we agreed 100' on the radalt as the minimum; if we did not get in it would be 3 Martin Baker let-downs. Flew the best precision approach of my life, got the lights at 105', and shut down on the runway. I can still remember it like yesterday.

Only recently did I see the Det Cdr's name as one of the now deceased nuclear test veterans whose case for compensation was lost.

[BSweeper]

Hmm. The T17 was fitted with a radalt was it. I didn't know that!

[nazca_steve]

Steve, you are in no way clogging up this thread, indeed it sounds like you have some excellent contacts and a nice wide variety of roles and time periods that would be good for the book. I have yet to tap into the B-57 experience, so would love to hear from your friend in the USAF, along with the others. PM coming your way in a sec.

[options770]

I have checked in the log book I have with me in Brussels and have flown with both Dalek and BSweeper. Of interest is the fact that on the Gib to UK compass failure, Dalek was the Navigator!!!:D

[nazca_steve]

Small world eh? Quite funny actually, but I have to admit I was wondering when paths would start to overlap. It is starting to happen on the RAAF side of things, now we have it in the RAF side too. So let's hear your combined memories of these incidents!

[BSweeper]

Options. Check Pms. The Sweep.

[Quietplease]

Hi Steve
I have my Pilots Notes for PR7 T4 and B2 if they are of any interest. Might help with some of the erroneous memories
Still remember it as a great aircraft. Used to enjoy getting back to Cyprus from Aden or Nairobi at 50,000ft and having to descend to give the poor old Hunters a chance to play. Lots of photos of 13Sqn aircraft from 58-61.
An easy aircraft to fly if you had done the Worksop assymetric course on Meteors where one had to get an overcentre geometric lock on your knee for single engine work.
The long gap between unstick and safety speed particularly at Eastleigh (5280ASL) wasn't much fun but we were young and foolish then.

[nazca_steve]

Hello Quietplease,

I would very much like to hear more on your time on 13 Sqn. One of the questions I have been repeatedly asking PR crews is about their memories regarding usage of the 1.75" photoflash and para-flares. I have heard the latter were rarely used but have heard some good anecdotes on the photoflashes. Would love to hear your experiences with these pyrotechnics, along with anything else relating to the 'experience' as it were. The Hunter example being one of them...:)

Pilot's Notes on the PR.7 would be great, I have the B.2, T.4, B(I).12, T.13 and TT.18 but nothing on PR birds.

I will send you a PM now with my email for any photos.

Best regards,

Steve

[nazca_steve]

Just a quickie here: big thanks to everyone who has contributed so far and for all the other contacts that have arisen from your friends and colleagues not on here. I have been gathering lots of useful material and photos and very much appreciate your help on this book.

Steve

[options770]

I have been asked by Tangmere Aviation museum if I have Pilot's notes for the B2 to go with the cockpit I have loaned them.

Unfortunately I do not but would like to acquire a set, so if anyone has a spare set or can duplicate a set for me I would be willing to pay a reasonable amount.

Thanks

Joe

[options770]

It all started on a Thursday.

A simple transit from St Mawgan to Naples. The transit wasuneventful apart from falling out of the Airway and getting vectors from FrenchAir Traffic Control because the two Navigators couldn’t agree which way to turnto regain the centre line.

As we approached Napoli the visibility was given as 5km inhaze so we elected for radar control and descended below safety altitudeavoiding Vesuvius. As we were settled at 1500ft downwind the controller said ‘Welosing power, shutting down, you go away, goodbye’. Somewhat surprised Iinitiated a climb and turn away from the volcano while we looked at ouroptions. We elected to divert to Deccimomanou our specified alternate and somefurious calculations were carried out in the back.

At this point a voice said ‘hey we back you try again?’ sowe placed ourselves in their hands for radar vectors to an offset ILS approach.The airfield is in the middle of an industrial estate, visibility was poor andthe airfield lights were not on! At 500ft he said ‘you gonna land?’ to which Ireplied that I couldn’t see the runway, his response was ‘OK you carry on’ Atdecision height I saw the runway in my 10 o’clock and with a call of ‘landing’I did a dirty dart onto the ground.:bored:

We were handled by the US Navy and the following morning ourstarter crew was a 6’ 6” matelot, the start was uneventful but then it came toclosing the door. As you are aware the door is closed from the outside, thisaircraft was just back from a major and the door was a tight fit. In order tohelp, our jolly matelot put his shoulder into it and after 30 minutes we stillhadn’t closed. We finally worked out that because of his height, as he pushedhe straightened the door and prevented it engaging, once we got him to stoopall was well. We taxied just in time to stop them cancelling our clearance. Ismiled as I held for take-off as I saw an Italian aircraft coming in from thesame position as I had the day before and performing the same dive to land.

We took off straight into a flock of birds, we didn’t appearto have a strike and all indications were normal so we set off for Cyprus. Onlanding the ground crew pointed out a smear on the nose. We had two choices:spend several hours filling in paperwork or wash it off and go to the bar…wellthere didn’t appear to be any damage.:O



Monday morning, crew in start-up and off to Naples. As werounded the toe of Italy I got an update of Naples weather with 2km visibility.Given the situation on the previous Thursday I elected to divert to Rome whichhad much better weather. On the approach to Ciampino it says ’avoid overflyingthe Vatican’ but it doesn’t tell you where it is! After landing Tom and Irefuelled the aircraft while Bob contacted the Air Attache at the Embassy whoorganised a hotel for us. We then had difficulty leaving the airport, it wasjoint civil/military and we were not Italian Air Force so couldn’t leavethrough that side and we were neither airline passengers nor crew. After beingsent backwards and forwards several times it got too difficult and they threwus out.

Tuesday morning we returned to the airport, I should pointout that the airliners were parked in front of the small terminal and theItalian Air Force VIP transports were on a small pad near the bar. We wereparked in the middle of a 100 yard square pan on our own like a leper. Tom wasleft to load the luggage while Bob and I went to Air Traffic to check the Metand file the flight plan. After 20 minutes we returned to the pan to be met byan armoured car and armed troops at 3 foot intervals surrounding the wholearea. :eek: It was with some trepidation and a jaunty ‘buonjourno’ that we steppedthrough the cordon to our aircraft with hundreds of pairs of eyes watching us.Tom was sitting in the cockpit reading a book and had not seen the assembly. Wedecided to carry on as normal and agreed to meet in the bar for a coffee andround up some ground crew along the way. Tom set off for the bar while Bob andI went back to Air Traffic to complete the paperwork. Fifteen minutes later wewalked back out and the guard had gone, but sitting next to our dirty grey andgreen Canberra was a big shiny bird with ‘United States of America’ emblazonedon the side. It seems that Cyrus Vance, the Secretary of State was visiting andthe guards were for him not us. :ok:

In the bar, which served alcohol as well as coffee we founda crew chief who allocated a man for our starter crew. We explained that heneeded a fire extinguisher and how to close the door. He brought a big red fireengine, but we didn’t complain. He and Tom stood out the front while we did theengine starts, he obviously was not familiar with cartridge starts because whenthe smoke cleared he was legging it away into the distance. When he realisedthat this was normal he sheepishly ambled back to position. He successfullyclosed the door and we returned to St Mawgan via Manston due to fuel and windconstraints. :)

[nazca_steve]

Hi Joe,

you can download the B.2 Pilot's Notes from here if you can print them out but I can't help you with an original set I'm afraid:

(1953) A.P. 4326B-P.N. Pilots Notes Canberra B2 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/46069912/1953-A-P-4326B-P-N-Pilots-Notes-Canberra-B2)

[Quietplease]

I have my B2 notes and have contacted Tangmere to see if they are interested.
Update,they are and they will be in the post Saturday.

[Box Brownie]

Back in 1960/61 my father was stationed at the APS on the Island of Sylt in Northern Germany. At the time I was fourteen years old and those of us old enough went to boarding school at Wilhemshaven ( in the buildings of the old U-boat base, but that is another story) During the holidays we would spend much of our time in the station gym. On one occasion we saw an all black Canberra. Some years ago when a book came out about post war surveilance flights close to and over the USSR I mentioned it to dad and reminded him of the Canberra. His response was " Yes - what you didn't see because it was pushed into a hangar so quickly, were the row of bullet holes in the fin!.
I later played football for 88Sqdn, (B(I)8's) and have been working alongside the PR9 that is being made ready for flight at Kemble. If you are interest in including a bit on this restoration in your book do send a PM and I will put you in touch with the project leader

[nazca_steve]

Dear Box Brownie,

I would be very interested to talk with the project leader at Kemble and will send a PM to you now. I have been keeping what tabs I can on it (mostly following rumours) about the plans and would love to know more...especially what the condition is of that lovely old T.4 and if there are plans to get her up and running too.

Ref the all-black Canberra, this is very interesting. At first glance I thought this might have been one of the fabled Project Heart Throb RB-57A Canberras (Martin RB-57A Heart Throb (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/heart%20throb.htm)) but according to the site, these sorties ended in 1956, before you were at Wilhemshaven (sounds an interesting time by the way). They were also based at Rhein Main. Do you know if this all-black bird was RAF or USAF? Bullet holes implies it was up to something risky, which makes it all the more intriguing. From the reference I have, all-black RB-57As of the 1st Tactical Reconnaisance Sqn were stationed at Spangdahlem AB in the early 60s. A bit far from you, but then again if it had taken damage nearer northern borders it could well have diverted to you.

88 Sqn - very interested to hear more on them. I am a big B(I).8 fan and this is one of my fave Sqns with its snake markings on the fin. Don't let the guys from 213 Sqn hear me say that!

PM coming over now.

[Box Brownie]

Thanks Steve. Sadly dad is no longer with us so I can't elicit any more information. I was always under the impression that it was one of ours. I remember him saying that they were only cleared to land on certain airfields and Sylt wasn't one of them.

Re the T4, that is at Coventry with the Classic Flight and I believe will not fly again.

Work on the PR9 at Kemble is progressing well.
Somewhere in the loft is an air to air photo of an 88Sqdn Canberra. If I can find it a copy will get to you.

[options770]

:)Thanks Steve, downloaded :)

[Quietplease]

Where did these crosswind limits come from? PNs for PR7 & T4 say in paras 106 and 108 - "A crosswind landing presents no special difficulty, and the crab technique is recommended. If the crosswind is gusting strongly increase the threshold speed by 5 to 10 knots."
No point in having a limit when one usually had no alternate and barely fuel for a go-around.
The one really vital limitation was the pilot thigh length not to exceed 26.5"!
Kneecaps left on coaming.

[nazca_steve]

Box, this is very interesting if it was one of ours. There were only a couple of all-black Brit Canberras that I know of, so this makes for a very intriguing plot. A shame your Dad is not with us anymore, but perhaps we can do some collective digging on it, here and elsewhere.

The T.4, sorry I forgot it was with Classic Flight not Kemble. And a shame it may not take to the air again.

Would love to see that 88 Sqn Can...I have an old model kit of one on my desk and have a definite soft spot for it.

Options 770, glad to have been of service. If you ever need any others I have some on PDF and have a friend who has practically the entire Canberra AP library and could scan them for you.

[crabro]

Hi Steve,

I am replying to your request for B(I)6 tales which I saw on the 213Sqn website. I have a numbe rof anecdotes and a few photos if they would be of any use. I was a pilot on the Sqn in the late '60s

Crabro

[nazca_steve]

Hello Crabro,

thanks for getting in touch and I am glad my request on the 213 Sqn site is working. Between that and word of mouth referrals I am getting some good coverage from 213 now. I would love to hear your anecdotes and of course the photos too; I will send you a PM now with my email, but posting on here is fine as well for the stories - whatever you prefer.

Steve

[nazca_steve]

Options 770,

priceless story by the way on your Italian adventures. Funnily enough I was contacted recently by an ex-USAF Sgt would told me of a similar story involving the fire guard dumping a load of foam into the intake during a B-57A startup...as you may know, theirs made even more cart smoke than the Avon. From what I've read this was not uncommon in the early days of the US Canberra.

[Warmtoast]

Hi Steve

Not sure if these are of interest, but fairly unique as it shows the aircraft that did a survey mission and the resultant survey photos.


R.A.F. Gan— 58 Sqn Canberra PR7 WJ815 - 12 March 1958

In 1958 Iwas stationed at R.A.F. Gan and took a photo of the first jet to visit Gan (it didn’t land because it was on a on a photo-survey mission and the then crushed coral runway was too short for a landing.

As I recorded in my notes “On 12 March 1958 a 58 Sqn (RAF Wyton) Canberra PR7 temporarily based in Singapore and detached to RAF Negombo (Ceylon) took survey photos of Addu Atoll (Sortie 58A 604 of 12 March 1958, aircraft WJ815, pilot F/O Mudge, navigator F/O Lister). The survey runs were flown at 9,000ft and following the final survey run we asked the pilot to do a low fly-by, this photo records the event.”

It was low enough to see the oblique camera ports on the starboard side of the aircraft. The mission report stated that one camera was U/S.

In February 2004 in connection with the R.A.F. Gan Reunion that was held later that year at R.A.F. Odiham, and with the permission of the MOD I was supplied with prints of this sortie. In giving me prints of the survey the MOD stipulated that if they were to be posted or published anywhere they should be annotated “Source: © CrownCopyright/MoD” which I’ve done.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/58SqnCanberraPR7WJ815.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/FullIslandPhoto-Adjusted1.jpg
"© Crown Copyright/MOD"


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/OriginalTentedDomesticSite-Close-up-Adjusted1.jpg

Original Tented Domestic Site - Close-up
12 March 1958. The original tented site. Tents are visible (slightly right of centre). The original WW2 short jetty and the channel blasted through the coral reef can be seen. Concrete laying machines are in action and are visible on the right of the new hardstanding. "© Crown Copyright/MOD"

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/NewDomesticSiteLarge.jpg

RAF Gan - New Domestic Site
12 March 1958. On the left the beginnings of the new domestic site take shape. The new jetty extending to the edge of the reef is visible (left) as is (far right) the original very short WW2 jetty. "© Crown Copyright/MOD"

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/SignalsATCSite-Adjustedannotated2.jpg

Signals & ATC Close-up
12 March 1958. ATC, H/F radio vehicles (used by W/Ops) and cypher truck are bottom right. Aircraft parking area and four SASF/ Stores tents are at bottom centre. To the left and slightly above these are H/F and VHF transmitter vehicles and generator truck. The VHF D/F vehicle in which I worked is the white-roofed object towards the top of the track on the left. Power was supplied from the generator truck along a long mains lead. For use in emergencies (when no mains power was available) the VHF/DF vehicle had its own 4-channel VHF TR1143 transceiver (as used in aircraft) that ran off 24 volt batteries charged by a stand-by petrol generator. "© Crown Copyright/MOD"

[Quietplease]

We weren't equipped for night photo on 13Sqn in my time (58-61).
In late 60 we ferried our unmodded a/c back to Marshalls at Cambridge (where I learnt to fly gliders as a youth). They did the night photo mod. We would pick up a modded a/c, take to it Wildenrath and then take one of theirs back to Akrotiri.

[crabro]

Hi Steve, I would prefer to chat via email if you don't mind. I am new to PPrune and don't know exactly what a "PM" is - private message perhaps?? Anyway if you would send your email address to me I will respond.
Cheers
Crabro

[nazca_steve]

No probs, Crabro, and yes, 'PM' is indeed a Private Message. I have sent one to you so by now you should have my details for email chat.

Steve

[nazca_steve]

Hello all,

while the thread has gone a bit quiet, work has been proceeding nicely with lots of new contacts made. The project is really spanning the globe a lot more now, and on that note, I've recently been in touch with a former Chilean Air Force PR.9 pilot, Carlos Graneris.

He remembers training with 231 OCU at Wyton in 1983 with Peter Challis, Dave Humpreys-Evans, and Dave Horton in the T.4 and Dave Watson in No.1 PRU. Does anyone here remember these men by chance, or better yet have contact details for them? I would love to get in touch with them about this time.

Steve

[nazca_steve]

Thanks to those that have PM'd me with some details on Dave Watson; still looking for others if you have them. Does anyone here recognise any of the following 231 OCU personnel below?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/nazca_steve/Canberras/1983britishcrewsOCU231.jpg

[Ian Sturgess]

Hi, From left to right: Geoff Lamb(P) Dave Horton(P) Dave Humphrey-Evans (P)
Dave Ward(P) Terry Cairns(P) Pete Challis(P) Brian Angel(N) Tony Williams(N) Roy Smith(N) Max Murray(N).

If you Pm me I can probably fill in a few gaps on the Canberra world, from 1972 to 1987. Flew most types, ex recce and QFI on 13 Sqn, 100 Sqn and 231 OCU.

Cheers

Ian Sturgess

[nazca_steve]

Hello Ian,

thanks for getting touch and providing the names. I would love to hear more on your experiences and will send you a PM now.

Best,

Steve

PROJECT UPDATE:

Research continues to go well with lots of superb contributions for the former Rhodesian Air Force and some excellent new material from the RNZAF. Research into the Chilean training sessions at Wyton and Waterkloof in SA continue to go well.

I am always looking for more stories, anecdotes and photos from any Canberra background - the more the merrier at this point still.

[nazca_steve]

Hello all,

I'm going to do a bit of blatant thread bumping here and see if any new or existing members might be able to add something more. It's been a while and gone a bit cold. If anyone wants to drop me a PM that is equally fine.

I do occasionally post project updates here if anyone wants to get something of scoop on the nature of the book and where its going:

The Canberra Experience | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/TheCanberraExperience)

Cheers to all,

Steve

[Rerun 57]

I have just come across this thread, and I am fascinated by the information about the PR Canberra's. I hope you do not mind me barging in!

My only connection with the aircraft is that of watching them practice night flash photography over Castlemartin range in West Wales, UK. (Now D113). Overview from ONC E-1 (8-GSGS) here:

http://sdrv.ms/QRMyLu

The aircraft ran in from the east and popped their cartridges over the western part of the range (over land), and then did a left turn (usually) to clear the area. I'm not sure whether they came back round again.

Like you, it would be great to hear from any aircrew who flew these sorties from the 1960s to the 1980s. I am writing a history of the range, and would love to hear first hand accounts of such sorties, and a photo or two of the range would be a major treat! Do photographs exist of flashes being used?

I have had some info from RF-4C aircrew who might have used Castlemartin for the same purpose, but the more the merrier!

You could tell the difference (in the dark) between the Canberras and the RF-4s in two ways:

1. The nav/anticollision lights;

2. The position of the bursting cartridges. The Canberra's flashes were below the aircraft and those of the RF-4 were always at the same height as the aircraft.

The RF-4s often used to start in daylight! The Canberras never did - which seemed sensible to me!


Castlemartin was also used during Royal Flush Competitions, and any info about these sorties from anyone would be most welcome. Likewise if I can help you in any way, please ask.

MTIA

[Hipper]

On the subject of Pilot's Notes (PNs), you can buy them from this site on CD-Roms:

Flight Manuals: Aircraft and Helicopter Flight Manuals on CD (http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/)

If you look at 'Bombers', then scroll down to Jet Bombers and click on the Canberra, you'll find PNs for a whole range of variants.

I bought the Vickers Valiant CD from these people a few years ago and find it very handy.

[nazca_steve]

I spent a long time trying to figure out the details of how the photoflashes worked, i.e. time before flash, what kind of area could be lit with them for photography, altitude flown for release etc. So to hear from someone who saw this from the ground was very interesting.

I do have some 13 Sqn PR contributors onboard who did talk about flashes and para flares. The consensus was night photography was not popular because in a war situation it would have of course been fairly easy to plot the position of the offending aircraft from the ground and deal with it. Of course anyone here has had operational experience (perhaps any Indian AF pilots?) I would be very keen to hear how it performed during the real thing. PR pyrotechics are an interesting subject; similarly if anyone knows armourers who fitted them that would be useful too.

Hipper - good link, I have a lot of AP Manuals on PDF - they have been very useful in building Canberras for MS Flight Sim I can tell you!

Steve

[Hipper]

I nearly forgot. I posted this on here a while back:

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/434196-canberras-xv-squadron-honington-1956-a.html

If any of the photos interest you, please let me know. There are a couple of others, one a similar view of the 'Comete' visit, the other maybe a picnic of some of XV squadron and families.

[nazca_steve]

Hello Hipper,

thanks for posting these rare pics, and sharing them on here. Nice to see your your father with XV Sqn there, especially the two 'return from Suez' shots. What is especially interesting about them is WD980 is shown wearing the old Bomber Command 1 scheme with Suez stripes- this is the first time I've seen this for Suez - everything else was High Speed Silver or a few rare Bomber Command 2 jobs.

I have the Brian Cull book (superb) and it will be nice to match the Radio Cairo story to the photo of your father and Sqn Ldr Thompson. With your permission I'd like to include a few of these in the book. If you have larger versions of the two post Suez and the profile shot of WK122 (full body shot) I can PM you an email address.

In certain circumstances where a family member has clear memories of a late father's experience with the Canberra, I am including these accounts - if you are interested in relating some tales please do let me know.

Kind regards,

Steve

[pghoward]

Hi Steve,
Came accross your letter in 213 sqdn,s web site.I left the service as a corporal airframe fitter,served from 1964-1977 and served on 24SQDN (HASTINGS),213 SQDN CANBERRA B(I)6,71 M.U.---CRASH AND SALVAGE and the REPAIR FLIGHT (CAT 3,s /mod,s,28 SQDN-HELICOPTER HANDLING FLIGHT and finally 72 SQDN WESSEX.I have many memories of the CANBERRA from 213 SQDN at BRUGGEN 1967--1969 --DISBANDMENT.Some tales are on the funny/serious side to the sad with the loss of 213,s last CANBERRA a mid air collision with a VICTOR from MARHAM over the WASH/WAINFLEET RANGE.If I can help at all please get in touch.
BEST WISHES
PETER HOWARD
P.S.
I worked on the belly landed TT.18 AT ST.MAWGAN WJ 566 I think.

[nazca_steve]

Hello Peter,

Yes indeed, I would love to hear some of your stories. The response from that posting on the 213 Sqn web site was very fruitful shall we say and I have had some very good stories from former 213 men. I will send you a PM now with my email address and we can talk further.

Steve

[pghoward]

Hi Steve,
Not received your "E" Mail Address, or a P.M. yet so that I can get to you the types of stories you need.
See You Soon
peter

[nazca_steve]

Apologies, Peter, I thought I had sent it earlier - please check your PMs, it should be there now.

[BSweeper]

Steve

Do you, or anyone else, know what happened to the "all black" B(I) 8 that was flown out of Boscombe Down in the late 70/80s. My friend Jim Cox, of the aero team fame, flew it on several occasions. I believe it was converted to single seat.

The sweep.:ok:

[nazca_steve]

Hello Sweep,

Yes, I believe you are talking about WV787.

Air-Britain : WV787 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=WV787&u=reg)

If this is the same machine, it is preserved at the Newark Air Museum. Some additonal info on it here:

Aircraft WV787, 1952 English Electric Canberra B.2 C/N EEP71644 (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/WV787.html)

Wikipedia states:

"WV787 was built as a Canberra B2 in 1952, it was loaned to Armstrong Siddeley and was fitted with Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire engines. It was later transferred to Ferranti for trials for the Blackburn Buccaneer radar and fitted with a B(I)8 type nose and a Buccaneer style radome. It next was moved to the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment where it was modified to be used as a water-spray tanker aircraft for de-icing trials. It would fly in front of the aircraft being tested which would fly into the artificial cloud created by the sprayed water to induce icing. It was retired in 1984 and later preserved at the Newark Air Museum and is a National Benchmark airframe on the National Aviation Heritage Register".

Are you still in touch with Jim Cox by chance? Also, I still need your final rank on leaving the RAF for my book!

Cheers,

Steve

[BSweeper]

Steve

Yes I have his (Jim Cox's) address and I have (just) written to him for his phone number so that I can drop in and see him one day.

I was seriously thinking of organising a 7 Sqn (Canberra) reunion in Evesham (Jim's town) if anyone is interested. It could be easily enlarged to be Canberra's (for anyone) buffet, drinks and chat.

I left in 1990 after a further tour on F4's and 4 years at A&AEE Boscombe Down in the rank of Flt Lt. My current title(s) are MSc, PhD, C.Eng, FIET, AFRIN.

Ps. Did I ever tell of the navaid-less return from Cyprus with George Nettleship (or the FIR dodging trip out there). By the way George and Jim are mentioned in the "Bucket of Sunshine" book which I have just acquired and which is an excellent read (even though some dates are slightly dodgy - e.g. B61 entry to service).

[nazca_steve]

Thanks for the details, there is one left I need to collect, but I will PM you for it.

No, I do not believe I had your nav-aid (or lack of) story, but would love to hear it. On a related note, when you do talk to Jim Cox, I would be grateful if you could mention my quest for Canberra stories and that as a pilot of the fabled 'dark horse' WV787, I would love to talk to him a bit about his experiences, should he be willing.

The reunion idea sounds good, indeed there have been many of these going on around the globe for the Canberra of late, but sadly, none in my neighbourhood! There is an excellent forum dedicated to the Canberra in which others might like to attend your reunion, should it go ahead:

Canberra Crazy - Login (http://canberratalk.conforums.com/)

Might be worth mentioning it on there too and there might be some takers. Most however are enthusiasts like me rather than ex-RAF.

[BSweeper]

Further to my last, Jim has written to me to report he is alive and well, but I know he is missing his wife Dena and is a bit depressed from time to time.

I plan on meeting him for lunch on 6 Nov in Evesham. Iif anyone who knew him wishes to come along , please feel free to do so.

Please PM me for further details.

The Sweep

[bvcu]

Think that WV787's last work at Boscombe was the Bae 146 icing trials. I was there 77-87 and it rarely flew. Made an airshow trip towards the end of its career to i think Greenham . Worked on WJ865 at the end of its time with ETPS.

[nazca_steve]

Afternoon all,

this is a mix of an update on things and blatant thread bump. Firstly, apologies for not posting much on here of late, but things have been going very well in terms of research and contributions. The book is progressing well, and I have a lot of superb material from kind folks around the world who have taken the time to share their Canberra experiences.

That said, I am still gathering more stories and anecdotes, so if you are new to this thread and had some Canberra experiences you might like to relate, I am still all ears.

There is a good chance this project may go into a two volume approach or after the first I might make a few smaller books on more specific areas such as the US and South America.

Regards to all,

Steve

[Lukeafb1]

BSweeper,

I could be wrong, but at one time in the late 60s, early 70s,WV787 (the all black version) was in storage at R.A.F. Wroughton, Swindon. Either that, or there was another black one there. In the same hanger was the all white one which set a U.K. to Australia record.

[Wander00]

Luke - I flew WD935 to Wroughton in about 1967 - that was in black and grey. Nose is now in a museum somewhere. Reckoned to be sixth Canberra built and at one time was a LABS and missile test aircraft

[Lukeafb1]

Wander00,

I noticed it when I went to collect a B6 from Wroughton. You're obviously right about the colours. For some reason, there was also a U.S.A.F. B57 next to the white version. From dim recollection, it had belonged to the 488th or 498th Bombardment Squadron.

Ah!.... LABS runs, remember them well!

[nazca_steve]

Bumping this thread. I'm approaching the final stages of story hunting for my book but am still light in a few areas. If anyone out there has experience in the following and interested in contributing some anecdotes or stories, I'd be grateful for your help:


Flying the Canberra in the FAP, FAV or FAE
Navigators with experience bombing in anger. This is a long shot, but it would be Suez or Malaya for RAF operators. Any other AFs welcome too.


Regards to all,

Steve

[BSweeper]

The main military thread has announced the passing of Flt Lt Dave Lord, a Canberra QFI on 31 July 2013.

My logbook records two flights with Dave as Captain in 1975 on the Canberra OCU and my recollection of him is as a smiling gentleman and fine pilot, with many a good tale (and a somewhat ruddy complexion).

RIP Dave.

[Rory57]

Steve, looking forward to the book! Hope you include the WB57!

Some good pictures of a "recycled" and now flying WB57 at this link:

NASA?s new WB-57F, N927NA, flies for the first time in 41 years | GAR (http://globalaviationresource.com/v2/2013/08/10/nasas-new-wb-57-n927na-flies/?fb_source=pubv1)

[ian16th]

Steve,

WRT 'bombing in anger', have you made any contacts in the air forces of India, Pakistan or Australia?

I believe that the RAAF Canberra's were appreciated in Vietnam because, unlike the USAF B-57's, they had optical bombsights.

[nazca_steve]

Ian

I have not yet made any inroads with India or Pakistan, and truthfully, unless a gem of a contact landed in my lap at this point, I will probably not include their usage in my book. I realise that India especially, was a big operator, and that might seem crazy to leave them out of the book when I after 'bombing in anger' stories. The reason is essentially one of space. I have so much material from other nations that I am already at the limit of what I can include, at least in one volume. But yes, I do have Australia fairly well covered including plenty of Vietnam era material.

Rory
The WB-57F, being such a far-removed bird from the original design, features only very briefly in my book so far. I doubt that will change at this point, as I have to say, narrow-minded as I am, I am not a big fan of that variant! I understand the impressive performance etc, and that NASA still uses them, but I've kept it to a minimum at present. Thanks for the interest though, and I have plenty of other B-57 related material in there if you are a fan of that type in general.

[nazca_steve]

Hello all,

as I enter the final leg of research for my book, I would like to put feelers out again for anyone here with Canberra experience during the Suez Crisis or during the Malayan Emergency. It's a bit of a long shot, but I recently have had some success with former 15 Sqn men who flew during Suez and am hoping to shake the tree for some more. It would be great to include more of these stories if possible.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Canberra crew itself, you could have worked on them, or witnessed an incident/have a distinct memory of the aircraft from another perspective at the time.

If anyone is interested or can help, please get in touch.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Preon]

Hi Steve, Looks as though you are almost finished however have you covered 1323 Flt in 1954?
I met an ex- Canberra B.2. pilot in N.Ireland about 24 years ago who was
then employed with a holiday airline flying as a Captain on B.757 aircraft.

Briefly he had flown to the Pacific in 1954 with 1323 Flt. to monitor nuclear tests however worryingly found himself as the sole survivor when two fellow Canberra's were lost, one without trace.
The second aircraft force landed on an atoll enabling a forensic examination of the airframe and engines and concluding ( I think) that the engine generators had suffered corrosion in over-water salt laden conditions.

I've never seen any published articles regarding the above circumstances.
Look forward to reading your book.

[nazca_steve]

Hi Preon,

I had read about that somewhere in one of my reference books, but I forget which one now. I'll see if I can dig up something on it. Others may also know about it and can advise.

Argentine Canberras suffered the same salt-water corrosion problems when flying low-level over the South Atlantic during the Falklands War. A few suffered flame outs and had to abort. I think some Peruvian Cans also had the same problems operating from the coastal base at Pisco over the years.

Will keep you posted on the book, thanks for getting in touch.

Steve

[redsetter]

"Sniffing and Bottling" (available from lulu.com) has the full story of 1323 Flt including loss of the Canberras in Pacific; recollections of aircrew who served during the US nuclear trials on Kwajalein; and photos of the attempted salvage of the Canberra ditched on an atoll.

[nazca_steve]

Hello all,

This is an appeal to the collective resources of the forum again. I'm approaching the final stages of the book which has gone very well. There are a couple of weak areas however, one being RNZAF usage of the Canberra. If anyone here has contacts within veterans groups for 14 and 75 Sqns (RNZAF) I would be very grateful if you could connect me. I had some marginal success with 14 Sqn a couple of years ago, but would very much like to flesh out this part of the book, as I feel the New Zealand experience is significant. In particular, I would love to talk to anyone that either flew or maintained RNZAF Canberras during the Malayan Emergency.

The other request is a rather specific one, but if you don't ask you never know. I'm looking for anyone that might have contact details for a Sqn Ldr David E. Dowling, or his family members. I'm not sure if he is alive, but Sqn Ldr Dowling was involved (as a then Flt Lt) in training Peruvian pilots to fly their newly acquired B(I).8s in 1956. Later he went on to fly Lockheed U-2s on covert ops for the CIA via Mi6 but that is another story. If anyone could help with information on him or his family, I would very much like to get in touch.

Thanks all for your time.

Kind regards,

Steve

[binbrook]

Hi Nazca Steve!
Sadly I've stumbled across this thread far too late, and thoroughly enjoyed it even though there are few posts from the era whose tail I just caught, when the Canberra formed what our Grandads called the 'main force', split between the First Division and the Third Division South - unkind perhaps, but of course we thought this fair. Publication date please!

[Wander00]

We had a flt cdr pilot on 360 in the late 60s, whom I have subsequently learned was on nuclear sampling, and allegedly committed suicide as a result of radiation sickness. His widow has been seen in the media as one of the leading "nuclear test victim" campaigners. Are there any other instances of aircrew casualties as a result of nuclear testing/sampling duties?

[nazca_steve]

I would think there are lots of instances. I have spoken with a man who suffered numerous illnesses throughout his life as a result of radiation exposure flying Canberras on Operation Grapple. He indicated his colleagues did as well, and I think one of them was interviewed by the BBC (at least on their web site) talking about this in the last couple of years.

I had not heard about the man you mention Wander00. There are some very interesting accounts on the page below recalling the tests, flying into the clouds, and the levels of exposure here:

About Christmas Island (Kiritimati), Kiribati, And* Bomb Tests (http://www.janesoceania.com/christmas_about/index.htm)

It's a long (but interesting page) so if you are pressed for time, start at the paragraph beginning: "There is no question that a radiation hazard was created by the 'sniffer' aeroplane which flew through the H-bomb clouds minutes after detonation."

Binbrook There is no publication date, at least a firm one, as I'm still working on it, but I hope, all going to plan, to be ready to either self publish or approach publishers later this summer. I'll keep you posted. You can also follow details of the book here:https://www.facebook.com/TheCanberraExperience


Steve

[goudie]

Hope all goes well with the publishing Steve. Really looking forward to reading the book.

[nazca_steve]

Thanks Goudie, it's been a good few years of work but feels good it's approaching completion. I think it makes one heck of a story.

[bosnich71]

Hi Steve . still watching out for your comments and glad to hear that 213 will get a mention.
Best of luck with the book.

[nazca_steve]

Hi Ron,

I just sent you an email now - after 10+ years of work the book is finally out! I need to read up on forum rules for advertising books etc. so until then, if anyone reads this and is interested, please PM me.

Cheers,

Steve

[longer ron]

Hi Steve - sorry - could you email again - I had forgotten to update my email address on here :O
Congrats on finishing the book :ok:
So if I have not replied to anybody over the last 3 years - I wasn't being unsociable LOL.

[nazca_steve]

Hi Longer Ron,

I know, it's been years since I last posted here myself! PM on it's way today.

[happybiker]

Does anyone know where a copy of the book The Canberra Experience can be purchased in the UK?

[nazca_steve]

You might be able to find a copy at The Aviation Bookshop in Tunbridge Wells or on their web site. I did a small UK print run and they were the sellers. If not, there is a Canberra 70th Anniversary event next June at the South Yorkshire Aircraft Museum in Doncaster which if I can attend, I'm aiming to sell some books there.

[happybiker]

Steve, many thanks for the information.