Vigili del Fuoco winching

[Savoia]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ps2AmSojM1I/TxHk17JioxI/AAAAAAAAHRA/yDwSspjbcp0/s800/Italy_Cruise_Aground_06274.jpg

Holidaymakers from France, Italy, Germany and Britain were forced to flee the 1,500-cabin Costa Concordia in lifeboats when it hit a reef less than two hours after leaving port.
Some leapt overboard and swam to shore as the ship started to sink into the waters near the island of Giglio, off the Tuscan coast.
Francesco Paolillo, the coastguard spokesman, said that at least three bodies were retrieved from the sea and at least three more were feared dead.
Pregnant women and young children were among the 3,200 passengers and 1,000 crew on board.
Helicopters airlifted to safety around 50 people who were trapped on board.


Helicopters circle stranded ship as passengers brought ashore Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9014911/Helicopters-circle-stranded-ship-as-passengers-brought-ashore.html)

[Troglodita]

Has nobody else noticed the Italian Bell 412 Regn YF 57 winching over the stricken cruise ship!

What on earth is he doing at about 300 feet with a crewman/survivor on the winch?

Maybe still doing his primary job of checking for fires on the mainland?

:ugh:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/15/article-2086831-0F77EF4200000578-65_310x440.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/15/article-2086831-0F77E7B600000578-464_310x440.jpg

Trog

[chopper2004]

Yep saw that, and reckoned the Guardia di Costiera are probably there somewhere with their AB412 and newish AW139 around :)

[Vie sans frontieres]

What on earth is he doing at about 300 feet with a crewman/survivor on the winch?

They're trying to save lives. What have you done today Troglodita? :=

[Troglodita]

They're trying to save lives.


In a very strange way hence my comment (by risking them unecessarily)

Crab - where are you when you are needed?

Trog

p.s. day off today - no lives saved!

[SARREMF]

Not sure which version of 412 they are flying but even an EP would struggle to be flyaway. If you then look at the winching supplement to the flight manual - cant remember what it was called but something like class d winching supplement - it gave some extremely high heights depending on your AUW. I suspect they have gone in high to keep flyaway, downwash clear of deck crew (who must also be perched on a precarious place). I suspect he had his reasons and at the end of the day he does have a high speed winch fitted and the chances of a Double engine failure or tail failure are about 10 to the minus well, a lot anyway. So.... From an armchair near you etc etc

[Troglodita]

but even an EP would struggle to be flyaway.

Not true unless he has 2000lbs of spaghetti. 200 litres of Vilepollyfilla and his Mama stowed in the back next to the crewman!

Even an SP would have few problems even with high fuel state with a standard 4 man crew (9800 lbs or thereabouts with 1800lbs fuel)

My point sitting in my day-off armchair was why not descend clear of the hull into wind over the water as you winch in? Like we used to do from the Whirlwind HAS 7 onwards!

Trog

[[email protected]]

It would be interesting to know what sort of service the pilot was providing to the winchop/winchman hovering at 300' and what he was using for hover references.

There is no international standard for helicopter SAR and different operators have different priorities and practices.

[SARREMF]

Actually, just seen the photo then the video. I see what you mean. He must have a good reason?

[John Eacott]

Has nobody else noticed the Italian Bell 412 Regn YF 57 winching over the stricken cruise ship!

What on earth is he doing at about 300 feet with a crewman/survivor on the winch?

snip

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/15/article-2086831-0F77EF4200000578-65_310x440.jpg

snip

300 feet? Maybe 100-120 feet, but that doesn't look like 300 feet to me: and what winch does he operate that has 300 feet of wire to play with :hmm:

Remarkably there are operators around the world who don't always appreciate the dangers of dropping the load from height over a hard surface. I agree that what we were taught (move out and down, overwater) seems a preferred method, but there could be a downwash issue (loose inflatables still tethered to the hull seen in other photos) or a wind issue. Certainly I wouldn't be getting overly concerned with the flyaway aspect, the 412 is a very capable machine.

Nonetheless, it's not our position to judge without knowing the facts behind the pilot and crew's decision.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

Have to agree with John ... thats only about 120' over ship structure and they appear to be using a HI line as well .... so they had a 'thought out' plan .. and whats more it worked! :D

:ok:

[Troglodita]

Didn't see the high line on the BBC shots so maybe he was over the water during the recovery.

Still can't see any masts or aerials sticking out of the hull but once again photographic perspective may be to blame.

He still seems awfully high at 120 feet plus hull height (reason for posting the question) and still a long way to fall!

Trog (Grumpy Old Man?)

[mickjoebill]

Salvage rights when you attach a line to an abandoned vessel? :8

Mickjoebill

[explorer99]

Hey, it's horses for courses - some operators do things one way, others do it another. For example:

Some years ago I had the good fortune to be able to fly a B412 operated by a certain European military air arm. The pilot, an experienced instructor, demonstrated a cliff winching scenario in the mountains, right-hand side to the cliff. On completion of the demo, and still in position, he decided that we needed to depart in the opposite direction to that in which we were pointing; he then carried out a pedal turn through 180 degrees TO THE RIGHT...:eek:...before flying away. He also made absolutely no safety calls (ie 'Safe SE / Flyaway / Committed') during the flight.

After the flight I asked him specifically about safety and actions in the event of an engine failure, making specific reference to the points above. His response was that the P&W Twinpac engines on a B412 simply didn't fail and were extremely reliable. He stated that was far more likely that the tail rotor would fail, and there was very little that you could do to mitigate that, so his unit didn't worry too much about the reliable engines.

An interesting attitude, especially as JJ had an engine failure on a SARTU B412 soon afterwards.

The winchman also connected directly to the hook without a QRF in between, there was no PLB or survival equipment of any kind in the aircraft, I received no pre-flight safety briefing (although it was requested) and there was no Flight Following service. The unit did, however, carry out successful rescues. Just not how I would do it.

E99

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

explo99 ... you said ...
he then carried out a pedal turn through 180 degrees TO THE RIGHT......before flying away.

I seem to have missed something ... what exactly is wrong with a RH pedal turn ....

Cheers

[[email protected]]

Spinwing - I think his point is that when winching RH side on there was a flyaway option for the aircraft in the event of and engine failure and when ready to depart from LH side on the same - however and engine failure during the 180 yaw right, whilst still tucked up close to the cliff, didn't leave much of a flyaway option especially when nose on to the cliff.

We all hope the reliability of the engines means we won't be embarrassed but doing that on a training sortie seems like tempting fate. I'm not saying you don't have to take risks sometimes but this outfit seem to have a pretty cavalier attitude to safety across the board - different strokes for different folks.

[PPRuNeUser0180]

I seem to have missed something ... what exactly is wrong with a RH pedal turn ....

Cliff was on the right side so there was a small timeframe where it's hard to dive away should there be an engine failure, at least that's what I thought of it?

[explorer99]

...a RH pedal turn? Nothing. Except when that means that you ignore the 180 degrees of free space to your left and choose instead to fill your windscreen with rock face, removing any option of a) a flyaway if a donk stops or b) autorotation if you have a TR problem (or SE fail in a single). At least, I suppose, you reduce your hover Tq in a 412 by using right pedal to carry out the turn. Quite apart from that, it ignores the obvious (to me) option of gaining forward airspeed to reduce your Tq requirement before turning.

Sorry mods, possible thread drift from 'Vigili del Fuoco winching' - but it's obvious, innit? If you have at least 2 safe options and 1 unsafe option, why choose the latter? :ok:

E99

[Rigga]

Perhaps the height is to avoid blowing all the inflatable Liferafts about, many of which were still attached to that side of the Hull, and potentially causing further injuries?

[spinwing]

Mmm ...

Thanks guy's ... I'm cool with all that .... :ok:

[PO dust devil]

In my humble experience, there could be a number of reasons for winching and operating at altitudes others wonder about. Could be a paramedic below working on another survivor or someone requested less noise. Who knows?.........apparently not us. Could be a downwash issue or someone below on unstable surface perhaps. OR some expert may have told the pilot to never ever ever winch below x feet. Could even be the guys first winch or his thousandth and that's the way that hoist cycle had to be done on the day.

Good effort for a prick of a task anyway.
DD

[Savoia]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3touFL0Mv_g/TxZZH4s6Z8I/AAAAAAAAHYs/deQ6eWl85Ik/s630/VdF%252520412.jpg
A VdF 412 prepares to commence winching near the stern of the Costa Concordia

Is that low enough for you!

[Troglodita]

Maybe he reads PPRUNE?

Trog

[PO dust devil]

If he did read pprune it would not be to learn from you "mate".

All due respect

DD

[explorer99]

And there was I, hoping that this thread would stick to constructive discussion without degenerating...:hmm:

Having seen TV footage of the rescuers having to use ropes and ascenders to negotiate the smooth deck that would normally be horizontal, I imagine that rotor wash would be fairly unwelcome...perhaps hence the height in the original pics. Yeah, a high winch has its risks, but to my mind these are mitigated by such factors as a good flyaway and a modern electrical hoist with high winching speed, shock clutch and reliable brake. Also I don't think that references would have been much of a problem for the pilot...

E99

[Troglodita]

Not the sort of reply that would be expected from someone who wrote on 18th February 2009 at 01:06


Sounds like an apology for poor manners might be in order back a few posts. People should be able to place objective comment on the page without being belittled or ridiculed....moderators?



:rolleyes: Trog

p.s. just joking - was bored last week - searching for bodies today has improved mood dramatically!

[vaqueroaero]

And he doesn't have pop out floats!!

What would have happened if he had a C box or driveshaft problem? You only have one of those.......:}

[Phone Wind]

In my humble experience,
Is that "humble" experience or total lack of actual SAR experience?

If he did read pprune it would not be to learn from you "mate".

... and then he writes
All due respect

"With all due respect", after reading some of your posts and knowing something of the Troglodyte's background, you'd learn a lot more from him than from you (knowing nothing about you of course) ...

All due respect :E

Sorry if this is off thread and a well done to all those involved in the rescue, some of whom are obviously professional in this field and others experienced, well-meaning amateurs doing their best.

The Italian divers have done a wonderful (and heroic) task - bravo :ok:

[topendtorque]

Troglodita,

perhaps you mis-titled this thread, it may be better to be lynching instead of winching, for more reasons than one IMHO.

regards
tet

[nigelh]

Trog .....and I thought all you professional SAR boys knew what they were doing ..... !!!!! Why not be big enough to say job well done , you would feel much better for it and get more respect from us "amateurs" !!!
Ps in my humble opinion ....

[PO dust devil]

My original comment was in support of the SAR pilots. They did well in a prick of a job.

[Troglodita]

Nigel and all,

I did actually apologise way back when it was pointed out that they had a Hi-line deployed but probably not in a sincere or strong enough manner.

I agree that all the boys have been doing a great job and merely questioned why they were so F***ing high when there seemed to be no apparent reason for this from watching a news clip on the Beeb! There have been loads of (speculative) potential reasons for the very high hover which were not at all obvious from the short clip that I saw.

We can all get a little carried away when a Rescue scenario initially unfolds and the presence of TV cameras does little to calm the situation.

It doesn't matter how slim the chances of a catastrophic failure are if one actually occurs and it just seemed to me that the crewman and casualty were a hell of a long way up in the air once again "for no apparent (at the time)" reason.

I found a forgotten commendation in a box in my garage the other day from the UNHCR for assisting in the rescue of a bunch of Vietnamese boat people whose boat had overturned in Kuala Terengannu harbour mouth during a severe Monsoon storm in 1983. I was inbound with a full load from offshore and my contribution was to get my co-jo to deploy our liferafts then "steal" all the passenger life jackets from the 20 or so passengers in the back of my S61, inflate them and throw them to the various bodies in the water once again from a very high hover to minimise downwash with very dubious power reserves. I would have been crucified today for even getting involved with a ship full of Oil Company pax but it seemed like a good idea at the time. I am sure some old Fart like me (now) would have pointed out the error of my ways if PPrune (or even mobile phones) had existed at the time.

Once again - sincerely well done to all the crews!

Trog

[PO dust devil]

In that sense we are all in agreement. SAR crews are often thrown into others mess.

[Savoia]

From one thing to another, could one of you fine folks confirm whether an auto-hover feature is common with the AFCS in the 412 and, if so, how effective/helpful it is (if at all) during hi-line/general winch work?

[Troglodita]

Savoia,

Not a standard Civvy fit as I am sure you are aware and also not fitted to the FBS Shawbury Class D sim (unless fitted very recently)

Possibly a fit used by the RAF SAR Guys in Cyprus?

Crab?

Trog

[Aser]

vaquero, there are floats in that 412, try harder... :rolleyes:

[Aser]

Hoisting video:
Costa Concordia: new audio recording of officer reporting 'black-out' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9025402/Costa-Concordia-new-audio-recording-of-officer-reporting-black-out.html)

[nigelh]

Trog . Well put :D Nice story and i am sure you would do exactly the same again today regardless of new "rules". In a scenario like that i think the book goes out the window and you have to ask yourself if you can help without becoming a victim and causing more problems .....if you are 100% sure the answer is yes then you do it regardless and sleep at night ...

[pasptoo]

Some bunch of "experts" ! 300' ? 120' ? From what I guestimate by comparing the winchman to the distance on the wire; you either have a 12-15' crewman or the aircraft is hovering about 60-70' above the vessel. That may well be 120-150' amsl.

It remains that none of you are flying the machine and therefore do not have all the information that the pilot has based his decisions on. Nil wind, Full fuel, rotorwash, etc etc etc. If you are not there - then don't criticise. Give the crew some credit for doing the job.

P.

[HueyDog]

Some criticisms about the winching and some positive comments, but the main thing I noticed was that in Italy a tired older model 412 is out there rescuing people with no evidence of any shiny new Agusta 139s. Are they all sitting waiting for tail rotor blades?

There has been a lot of criticism on this forum about 'cheap' companies using older model helicopters instead of the very expensive new models. When a person needs rescuing I am sure they will be very happy if a cranky old BO-105 or 206L shows up rather than waiting for a newer model that few can afford or are grounded due to technical issues.

[PO dust devil]

100%

DD

[Savoia]

HueyDog wrote: Some criticisms about the winching and some positive comments, but the main thing I noticed was that in Italy a tired older model 412 is out there rescuing people with no evidence of any shiny new Agusta 139s. Are they all sitting waiting for tail rotor blades?
They are coming Huey. Slowly but surely the various rescue agencies around the country (and there are many .. just as we have many police departments) are up-grading.

There has been a lot of criticism on this forum about 'cheap' companies using older model helicopters instead of the very expensive new models. When a person needs rescuing I am sure they will be very happy if a cranky old BO-105 or 206L shows up rather than waiting for a newer model that few can afford or are grounded due to technical issues.
I agree!

It was just a short question (but it seems one nobody wants to answer) I was enquiring as to the role of auto-hover features. Are these helpful to SAR pilots .. to what extent are they used please?

[explorer99]

auto-hover features. Are these helpful to SAR pilots

Here's my brief two cents' worth - auto hover is an absolute must for safety overwater when references are poor eg at night or in fog. It's also very useful, and increases safety, for daytime overwater hovering under appropriate circumstances. When you have plenty of accurate, adjacent references (such as a whacking great ferry on its side in calm water), though, you can be absolutely accurate and react quickly to voice-marshalling without using auto-hover.

For example, you would use the AFCS to let down over water in sea fog, and use it in conjunction with other equipment such as radar to close with a ship. Once in close visual contact with the ship, however, you might wish to disengage some or all of the automatic features and carry out the winching whilst maintaining a manual hover. Once winching is completed you may choose to re-engage the AFCS before using automatic functions to climb safely away from the sea. Precisely what combination you would use would vary with the circumstances, the aircraft type, its AFCS capability and its equipment fit.

E99

[Torquelimited]

Making life easier, features such as; Auto hover, Auto Climb from Hover, Mark On Target, Auto Approach to Preselected Auto Hover Height, RAD ALT Hold and Velocity Hold are all standard selectable AFCS modes of 412EP 4Axis SAR version.

[ecureilx]

saw this photo .. in Boston.com

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/shipwreck/bp1.jpg