Spitfire crash landing in Scotland WW11

[El Grifo]

I originally posted this in the "nostalgia" page and was warned by resident posters that the thread was generally inhabited by AN,ORAKS as he put it.

Sadly he was correct. Can anyone here throw some light ?

About 24 years ago, a tall distinguished Canadian gentleman walked into my Photography Studio in the small Scottish Border town of Selkirk.

He asked me what it would cost to accompany him to a site a few miles out of town in the direction of Hawick close to the A7 near Dryden in order to take some photographs.

He related a strange tale to me about how he was flying a Spitfire in WW2, overshot Biggin Hill and crash landed out of fuel in that location. He survived the landing and made his way to the roadside.

He was given a lift to Selkirk where he had a beer in the County Hotel after which he made his way to the railway station. He boarded a train to Edinburgh where he eventually reported at RAF Turnhouse.

I was so intrigued by his strange tale that I offered to do the job for free. We agreed to meet the folowing day at 13.00 hrs.

I was so wired by his story that I started calling around the town to see if I could get some background. I called various farmers on the outskirts of the town, the local press and several old established pillars of the community, some of whom had vague memories of some kind of crash landing.

Pretty soon the story was circulating around the town.

The following day, the gentleman failed to turn up at the pre-arranged time. I called the hotel where he had been staying and they told me that after returning from dinner in the town the previous evening, he had advised that he would be checking out the following morning, several days ahead of plan.

I can only assume that he had got wind of the fact that his presence and story was creating a buzz in the town and felt a bit uncomfortable.

I have my own ideas of possible scenarios, overshooting Biggin Hill and landing in the Scottish Borders is not one of them !

If anyone in PpruneLand can help me explain this situation or point me to somewhere that can, I would be very grateful.

Even after 24 years, I cannot shake the story from my head.

To add. From Biggin Hill to the crash landing site is 310 miles as the crow flies. My understanding is that the Spitfire had a range of 395 miles .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[El Grifo]

Interesting it may be, but I would love to get a possible interpretation of the event from some qualified responder.


Thanks
El G.

[cazatou]

El Grifo

The range of a Spitfire varied between different Marks.

Spitfire Mk 2 500 miles on 85 Gallons

Spitfire Mk 5 470 miles on 85 Gallons

Spitfire Mk 7 660 miles on 120 Gallons

Spitfire Mk 9 980 miles on 175 Gallons

[Airborne Aircrew]

He related a strange tale to me about how he was flying a Spitfire in WW2, overshot Biggin Hill and crash landed out of fuel in that location.

Errr... How bad a navigator do you have to be to overshoot Biggin and not realize you screwed up until you get to Scotland? That sounds a bit suspect to me...

[El Grifo]

This is exactly the angle I am coming from !

The fact that he left the town when the story started to get around left me more confused than ever.

I am skirting around my suspicions, but can anyone offer me a possible scenario or a location where I can dig out some facts

[10W]

It's possible.

Lysander R9029 took off in 1940 from Tangmere to pick up agent 'Felix' from Fontainbleau in France. It ended up crashing 4 miles from Oban after running out of fuel in bad weather, although locals say it hit barrage balloon wires as well. That's more of an over run than from Biggin to the Borders ;) In this case, there was some mitigation though, as an enemy rifle round had shattered the compass in France and the pilot had to dead reckon navigate at night. The locals also say the pilot and agent were detained for several days as no one believed their story :)

[Airborne Aircrew]

10W:

I'm assuming, (and I know it's wrong of me to do so), that I can take the word "overshot" literally. That implies a "near miss" of sorts where he then continued to fly for some 300 miles. That's a long time to notice that you "overshot"...

The case of the Lysander is different IMO. No "near miss" is implied.

[MightyGem]

My father had a book about WW2 aircraft crashes in the Norfolk/Suffolk area. One of them was a Spitfire pilot who had taken off on a training flight down in the West Country, got lost and ran out of fuel over East Anglia.

[El Grifo]

Airborne, the exact words of the gentleman were "I overshot Biggin and run out of fuel"

The distance pans out at more or less 310 miles

[Pontius Navigator]

AA, now I come to think of it overshot is different from overshoot. The latter implies after a landing attempt whereas the former is 'merely' flying on past your intended point.

We had a Sudanese student who miscalculated his eta at a turning point and overshot be a considerable distance.

In WW2 with very limited nav aids, and more so in a Spitfire, it is quite possible that once lost things just got worse.

[orca]

To me it is a little harsh to criticise a pilot for an incident when the 'facts' of the case are contained in a single sentence.

If I had to assume anything (which I hate doing, but in the absence of facts some consider assumptions to be worthy alternatives) I would assume that he was attempting to get to a break in the weather having been unable to land at home plate. Loft in a small unservicability or NORDO and you have an aeroplane with very basic nav kit unable to go IMC.

Distance to crash from home plate would be dictated by fuel and extent of the cloud layer. The latter might have gone on for ever and the former, as we all know, doesn't.

[El Grifo]

This is opening up very nicely guys. Thank you.

Re-read my initail posting to see if you can pick up any more detail.

What I have written is exactly how it was.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I was in the shower and thinking... Dangerous...

There had to be some kind of Lost Procedure that he should have begun to follow sometime after realizing he was lost and a good time before he ran out of fuel.

I thought about IMC... There had to be a procedure for inadvertent entry into cloud too.

Radio calls. Couldn't we DF radio calls back then?

If he was VMC I'd suggest that London and the river Thames would be a pretty good "overshot boundary".

There's a lot of things that don't make any sense...

[taxydual]

Not really an answer and probably confuses things further , but

"the exact words of the gentleman were "I overshot Biggin and run out of fuel"

Could he have said BIGGAR and not BIGGIN? (Biggar being 20 odd nm WNW of the supposed crash site.

[El Grifo]

100% absolute, BIGGIN !

If he was VMC I'd suggest that London and the river Thames would be a pretty good "overshot boundary".

There's a lot of things that don't make any sense...

I agree with that Airborne. That is why the story has stayed alive in my head for so long.

Would you consider any other scenarios ?

[A2QFI]

A "Walt" who did some research and then revisited the scene of the incident hoping to bask in some kudos and maybe blag some B&B and then fled the scene when he realised he had been rumbled?

[El Grifo]

No! This was a very sincere and humble person who fits perfectly the nomeclature of "gentleman".

Hence the reason why I used the term !

[dazdaz1]

Thing is, we have become pre occupied with this post, with the flying range of the Spitfire. May I offer a slight diversity, the OP was questioning (my reading) why the alleged pilot failed to make the appointment at 13:00

1) We can presume the mystery person stayed at the hotel because we have evidence that the OP phoned the hotel and was given the information that the guest had booked out the next morning.

2) From past experience, if one stays at a hotel, one usually has dinner at the hotel. I find it strange that this person decided (or did he?) to take dinner in the town.

3) Did the OP ascertain the full name of this person, reason being, phoned the hotel and enquire the guest by name? ElGrifo, did you get this guys name?



Daz

[El Grifo]

Actually Selkirk is a very small Borders town and where he a was staying was to all intents and purposes, a B+B which did not offer evening meals.

He told me where he was staying and I knew the owner personally.

I am sure he introduced himself by name but that name has long escaped me.

When I called the hotel (B+B) I could have asked for him by name or I could have asked about "the Canadian Gentelman"

I have no reason to doubt his tale, he presented himself as a very polite, cultured, person. I remember his appearance to this day. Not the kind of person one would normally find around the town, very distiguished in appearance, tall, silver haired, shirt and tie, good walking brogues and a long poplin type raincoat, they type favoured by US and Canadian gents at the time.

The town of Selkirk does not really feature on the Tourist map. This fellows presence would not have escaped the notice of the populace.

Within a couple of days he would have become a talking point which in fact he did after my spate of enquiries.

An old farmer from the area had vague memories of a aircraft crash in the area, but could not really fill in any details.

It was only a few years after the event that this thing started to interest me. If I had made more enquiries at the time I might have uncovered more.

I have lived overseas for some 18 years now !

[dazdaz1]

So we can agree this incident/meeting happened in 1988

1) "Told me where he was staying, and I know the owner personally" fine. I suggest you ask the owner (record keeping of hotel guest book has to cover the past 30 years) so give your hotel friend a call and get a name.

2) A Google does not suggest Poplin 'type' raincoats US/Canada/brogue shoes were the norm in 1988

Therefore my conclusion is.

1) This gentleman was a distraction thief, did you do a stock take after his visit?
2) A wind up of people on here.

I rest my case.

Daz

[El Grifo]

Thanks Daz, but no thanks !

This a serious enquiry, your glib treatment does it a dis-service !

[dazdaz1]

El Grifo, no way am I'm disrespecting your op, just want a name, seeing this gentleman was know to you (did he not introduce himself) and your a good description of his attire, also the hotel he stayed at. Somewhere (hotel guest book) there must be a name for this guy!!!!!!!! Do a little digging at you pals hotel.

Daz

Back to my Regiment dinner.

[El Grifo]

I did correct myself and explain that it was more of a B+B.

It was run in those days by a 65 year old woman, to expect her still to have records is pure fantasy.

I have no recollection of the gentlemans name jusy a vivid recall of the event and how he looked.

Even now I can be introduced to somone and forget the name by the time I have drawn the next breath.

Enjoy your dinner !

[El Grifo]

To take another tack, a kindly soul has suggested that I ask the assembled company if somone could perhaps point me towards a site or location where I could find out which Spitfire Squadrons were based at Biggin Hill during wartime, after which I could check to see if any of their aircraft were lost over Scotland.

As my friend points out, there could not have been many !

Thanks

El G.

[Pontius Navigator]

I could find out which Spitfire Squadrons were based at Biggin Hill during wartime, after which I could check to see if any of their aircraft were lost over Scotland.

As my friend points out, there could not have been many !
Au contraire:

A quick Google threw up 92, 72, 74 and 610 while these were based there is did not follow that your Spitfire was based there but might simply have planned to land there. 'He overshot' might also mean that Biggin was a turning point en route to another airfield perhaps with less sophisticated nav aids.

AA says could we not D/F in those days. I am not sure the R/T sets they had then had crystals to cover the whole of UK. It might be the case that once a short range fighter was out of his group area then he was unable to communicate.

We used to have an RAF Common - 117.9 and Flying Training had 115.56. Bomber had 135.95 IIRC but these were all post war freqs. If he had limited freqs available, may be 4, then he may have been out of contact.

[El Grifo]

Thanks Pontious.

My own search threw up the same information. What I meant was that not many aircraft from Biggin would have crash landed in Scotland, although that may be incorrect!

I take your point though regarding Biggin being a turning point, although I did get the impression that Biggin was the airfield at which he was planning to land.

Can you help me any further with this ?

[XV277]

There has been a lot of research done into wartime crashes, especially in the UK. I'd imagine there must be some record of it.

Perhaps a question here:

Historic Aviation - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=4)

might elicit some information. Some very knowledgeable chaps in the matter of Spitfires.

[sycamore]

E-G,2 starting points; Was there any mention of any particular year that this happened ?If so there maybe records in the local `rag` archives.Likewise,I would have expected him to have `reported` to the local Constabubble`,so he could report a downed aircraft to the nearest RAF unit to provide guards etc,assuming that he had an armed aircraft/Verey pistol/personal weapons etc...You can`t just leave an aircraft lying about,and as he seems to have been `mobile`,then suggests it was more of a forced landing,rather than crash,ie with injuries.

[GQ2]

....pphhh........ yup...... definately some BS in that tale somewhere.... The man in the mac was probably P/O W.M.Itty. :rolleyes:

[NutLoose]

Is there any recovery records anywhere, as for overshooting, the first FW190 that came into our ownership was due to the pilot mistaking the Bristol channel for the English one.. the USAF also recovered a light aircraft that couldn't get into Paris because of weather, so headed for Le Touquet, but finally ran out of fuel and force landed in a ploughed field in Kent!

[November4]

Had a quick scan through the 3 volumes of Fighter Command Losses last but couldn't see anything close to this incident. That could just as well be due to me missing it in the books, the Spirtfire at the time was not on charge with Fighter Command or some other reason.

[El Grifo]

I have no idea of the year in which this occured. At the time of the visit to my studio, I called the local press to see If they had any information. The newspaper has changed hands so many times over the years that records are very sketchy. I plan a visit to Scotland this year so I will have a serious go with them then.

As for the police, Selkirk was then and largely still is a one horse town.There may have been a Bobby on a bicycle

The gentleman simply told me he crash landed/ force landed the Spitfire on the top of a flat hill not far from the town, was un-injured and made his way to RAF Turnhouse to report in .

He stopped for a beer in Selkirk and then took the train to Edinburgh.

As I have said before, an old farmer near the site had vague memories of an event but could not give many details. Had I done some serious investigating at the time, I am sure I could have come up with answers. That is something I regret.

It was really only later that the story re-surfaced in my mind and I now live overseas. I do plan to do some real checking when I visit this year.

If anyone else can come up with any other leads I would be grateful.

It appears the subject is being discussed already with some flippancy on the site you suggested XV277. I think I will stick with Pprune !

Thanks
El G.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

El G,

Have you investigated which Sqns were based at Turnhouse and attack it from that direction?

Duncs:ok:

[cazatou]

El G

If the Pilot was Canadian then it is entirely possible that it was a RCAF aircraft which could mean that the RAF would not necessarily have a record of the crash.

[El Grifo]

Yep, this is getting complicated for sure. I reckon my best bet is when I go to Scotland in a few months and start from scratch.

I am 100% convinced that the guy and his story was authentic !

[Airborne Aircrew]

I am 100% convinced that the guy and his story was authentic !

Based only on his appearance and bearing? So it looked like a duck and it quacked like a duck but it needs to walk like one before we can say it's a duck... ;)

[baffman]

Fascinating story, and some of the details sound very curious.

Selkirk may be a "small town" by southern standards, but it serves a large rural area. Historically it is a county town, the administrative capital of Selkirkshire, with its own Sheriff Court.

Until 1946 Selkirkshire had its own police force, now part of Lothians and Border Police, who still have a manned police station in Scotts Place Selkirk.

On that basis, it seems quite surprising for someone who ran a business in the town to say that "As for the police, Selkirk was then and largely still is a one horse town.There may have been a Bobby on a bicycle."

[jumpseater]

Doesn't need to be a Turnhouse based Spitfire. Not a million miles away was RAF Acklington in Northumberland. No72 Sqdn, Spitfire equipped was based for eight months in 1940, before departing for Biggin. No610 arrived from Biggin as 72 left, also Spitfire equipped, a Canuck could obviously be flying in the RAF at this time. It could (if true) be something like this that went pear shaped, but like others the original story seems 'odd' to put it politely ...

[BBadanov]

If the Pilot was Canadian then it is entirely possible that it was a RCAF aircraft which could mean that the RAF would not necessarily have a record of the crash.

Bonjour caz - No it would be an RAF Spitfire. Although being in an RCAF squadron, possibly even an RCAF wing, it would have been an RAF-serialled Spit, so records would be in UK (in AHB, but that would be a lot of digging). Or as posted previously, he could have been RCAF but in an RAF squadron.

[McGoonagall]

The gentleman simply told me he crash landed/ force landed the Spitfire on the top of a flat hill not far from the town,

As a Souter you will know that landing on top of a flat hill near Selkirk narrows the search significantly. However, newspaper archives do exist. A lot of the local papers were grouped into the 'Southern Press'. You may have to bite the bullet and journey into Hawick to peruse the records. Beware the Teries.

:}

[El Grifo]

AA, ok 100% convinced is taking things a bit far.

What I meant really is that the entire demeanour of ther man left me with the firmest impression that he was a person on a pilgrimage to revisit a major event in his past life.

I think it is not too difficult to assess in ones mind pretty quickly whether someone is genuine or not. He walked like a duck, talked like a duck and to me he really was a duck, to use your parlance !

Selkirk can without a doubt be accurately described a one horse town (apart that is from one day in June every year)

A business associate of mine once described it more accurately as a "Chip Shop Town" Go Figure !

The crash or landing or whatever one would like to call it took place near Dryden on a low long flat hill .

I will without doubt be visiting the local press on my return to Scotland and also asking questions at the local constabulary.

Dear McGoonagall, being a palemerk I have no fear whatsoever of the Teries, if local knowledge is to be believed, they fled frae Flodden after all :ok:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

If the gentleman concerned was from RAF Ackilngton, why would have gone to Turnhouse after his crash?

Or am I missing something?

Duncs:ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

I have a plausible explanation:-

The old gentleman was confused. No matter how strongly he believed he overshot Biggin he overshot somewhere else.and ended up where he did. The memory will do odd things to someone who wasn't brought up in the country when they try to remember things many years ago. I experienced similar in a discussion here about Salamanca camp in Belize. I knew Belize pretty darned well when I was there. But twenty years later I couldn't remember where Salamanca was in the country... I could picture the actual camp but had no idea where it was in the country.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Reminds me of an elderly gentleman in Heysham, Lancashire who always repeated the same story in the pub
That as a WWII flying boat (Sunderland?) pilot off the Cumbrian coast he'd been attacked by a Ju-88. The story was that he'd managed to evade, get down to Morecambe Bay and then fly up the River Lune at low level. He was followed by the Ju-88 - who didn't see the power lines across the Lune feeding the refinery at Heysham. He got the flying boat under the wires, but the Ju-88 crashed into them. He ended the engagement by motoring up the river to Lancaster and going for a pint in one of the pubs on the quay.
Sounds farfetched. Yet he repeated this story just about every night, time and time again until I'm sure he believed it. I asked around, no-one local had ever heard of the event and no-one believed it. I'm sure an event of that type would have been noted, but noone knew anything.
Yet this old chap was convinced it had happened - almost every night he would recite with consistent detail of how he'd beaten the Ju-88
I'm sure that through the repeated story telling he had convinced himself of the truth.

[XV277]

Or perhaps even making a light hearted remark about 'overshooting Biggin'

[El Grifo]

If the gentleman concerned was from RAF Ackilngton, why would have gone to Turnhouse after his crash?

Or am I missing something?



I think it may be me who is missing something ! RAF Acklington ????

AA, anything is possible.

I think I will give up for now before this thread goes the way of many threads on Pprune.

Thanks to those who have made an effort to help both on the thread and by PM.

If any real information turns up after my visit to Scotland I shall make it known

El Grifo

[jumpseater]

I introduced Acklington in that Spitfire squadrons that went to Biggin and came from there operated from Acklington, so there could be a futher reason for a 'Biggin' based/bound Spitfire being in the area. I missed:uhoh: EG's post that stated the gent went to Turnhouse to report in afterwards.

This site is pretty good regarding losses in the borders area
Aircraft and Airmen losses in North East England (http://www.neaviationresearch.org.uk/Losses/Losses.htm)

Nothing immediately fits the bill in their listings.

[Dan Winterland]

180 degree navigation errors are not uncommon using the P series of compass which reqire the 'T' to be set up to steer a course. In the dark or times of high workload, it is possible. I've seen it more than once while instructing on the Chippy.

http://aircraft-cockpits.com/ww2uk/6A-Instruments-Aircraft/6A-1671-Compass-Type-P10-full.jpg

[Airborne Aircrew]

It's interesting, (to me at least), that there have been some threads here about the Military forum becoming "diluted" and "off course" by the influx of ex and non military types... I think this thread is a perfect example of why those who think that are sometimes wrong.

This thread has an undoubtedly military aviation core that has had input from many people of differing backgrounds that have offered various "solutions". If nothing else, it has made those who got involved, (and, I'm sure, many who didn't), think about the story and what might have happened.

There are many threads here that bring huge benefit to this community - they don't all start with serving aircrew talking about current events...

'Nuff said...

[neilf92]

El- G,
You seem to be remarkably sensitive!
It is not clear who you are addressing in your last post
- but AA's post is firmly in support of your thread and the varied contributions to it .
If you are referring to AA's post I suggest you read what he said again and thank him for his support !

[El Grifo]

neilf92, you are 100% correct and I apologise unreservedly for my misinterpretation of AA's posT.

My only excuse is that I am so fixated by my quest that the first thing I do when I crawl out of bed in the morning is check for updated info.

This is exactly what I did this morning. Note to onself Drink Coffee and Engage brain prior to reading Pprune posts and replying !

Thankfully AA wil still be in the land of nod although I will pm him later by way of an apology.

Thanks very much for pointing out my faux-pas.

[500N]

Apologise for the slight thread drift.

In jumpseaters post #47, he has a link to a web site showing aircraft losses in the North East of England.

Looking through the list, not one Lancaster bomber crashed in that area.

Is that unusual considering most other planes are listed ?

[El Grifo]

The good news is that the local press in the Scottish Borders are picking up the story, so progress might finally be made !!

Go for it Mark !!!!

[izod tester]

Perhaps a pointer. Eshott Airfield just west of Acklington was a training base for Spitfires from 1942. Eshott was also known as Bockenfield Aerodrome. Bockenfield in a Canadian accent may have been confused for Biggin Hill.

[El Grifo]

Anything is worth considering and is entirely possible that the gentleman himself was confused, although he was as clear and concise as anyone could be in his story.

He did however, say more than once, Biggin Hill !

Thanks
El G.

An interesting point was put to me today in respect of the contributers who consider the fellow to be a fake.

Why did he want me to accompany him to the site to shoot pictures.
How could this be the basis for a scam ?

[Rakshasa]

The insurmountable problem with overshooting Biggin Hill and ending up in Selkirk is that fact that he'd have to have overflown about 400 active wartime airfields to end up in a pretty remote area at that time. That pretty much leaves the only reasonable explanation that he was IFR the entire time.

Still, given the cruising speed of a Spitfire is about 250MPH/220kts, it shouldn't have taken him over an hour to realized he'd overshot, even with a tailwind!

I strongly suspect either there was a lot more to the story or he was, to use the wartime phrase, "shooting you a line."

[Kluseau]

A seriously intriguing tale, and one that has clearly got a lot of people, me included, thinking about the possibilities.

For me the oddest thing about the Canadian gentleman's story is what he did after the crash. Yes, if he'd made it into Selkirk he could have caught a train. Selkirk served as the terminus of the Selkirk and Galashiels Railway, which until 1951 carried passengers to connect with the Edinburgh and Hawick Railway: and from there he could have travelled to Edinburgh.

But would he have done? He had left a Spitfire on a hill, a valuable (if bent) military asset which was presumably fully armed and therefore dangerous to anyone who stumbled across it. OK, his first port of call might conceivably have been for a pint. But would he not have supped this while waiting for the recovery team to arrive in response to his phone call to his base, or Turnhouse? He would surely at least have contacted the local police to have them guard the plane to protect it and local residents.

And "them" it would certainly have been. As baffman has already noted, Selkirk was not a one horse town, though I'd not testify to the number of chip shops. At the time it was the county towm of Selkirshire, and was and remains home to a Sheriff Court. As such it was and is the focal point of a fairly large rural community.

Moving on, did you get any sense of what the gentleman wanted you to take photographs OF? Let's assume the site was somewhere in the area between the farm at Dryden Greenhill and the loop of the A7, north of Dryden. You'd have arrived some four and a half decades late on the scene of the crash. If there were any physical remains the crash would certainly feature in the online or printed literature about aircraft wreck sites, and it seems not to. So what did he actually want you to photograph? A bare hillside or hilltop seems hardly worth his effort or yours.

[El Grifo]

I am the first to admit this is a very strange story.This is why it has remained very much alive in my head for so long.

The gent in question, as I have already said, was a dignified, well dressed, erudite Canadian, who had clearly made his way to Selkirk to re-visit a scene of a wartime drama, if he was to be taken at face value.

I talked to him for a period of time. and I took him at face value.

He had already visited what he told me was the site and wanted to return with me to shoot some pictures of the area along with the views and presumably with him in some of the shots. We never got as far as that. We discussed possibility, location, cost, along with why he wanted the shots taken. Bear in mind, an old farmer from the area had memories of some kind of incident involving an aircraft during WW11.

The local press have now taken up the story so perhaps some new light will be thrown on the situation.

Whatever one might think about Selkirk nowadays and regardless of it's status, during wartime it was probably less than a one horse town with the bulk of men away at war.

If this person was as disoriented and confused as he would have been if he had been involved in such a trauma, it is hardly surprising that he wanted to return as fast as possible to his "own"

The reason why he found himself in such a situation my have contributed.

If you can thing of a better reason why a person of this calibre would travel a long distance to a little borders town to pay someone to photograph an empty field, then please enlighten me.

He was not senile, he was not doddery, he was exactly as I have described him several times.

What I am hoping for here, is that someone with closer access to records and a greater understanding of WW11 fighter operations can turn up some details.

There is already one possible lead that is being investigated and as I say The local press have taken up the story.

I hope we can get somewhere with this situation.

Thanks for all of the input.

El G.

[green granite]

Still, given the cruising speed of a Spitfire is about 250MPH/220kts, it shouldn't have taken him over an hour to realized he'd overshot, even with a tailwind!


There was the case of a covert Lysander overshooting Biggin on return from France and ending up in Scotland I believe

[El Grifo]

We have now pretty well established where the gentelman was staying at the time he visited me. Enquiries are ongoing right now.

Trouble is, we are talking about a period between 1983 and 1987 or thereabouts. Will memories or records stretch that far back ?

[jumpseater]

In jumpseaters post #47, he has a link to a web site showing aircraft losses in the North East of England.

Looking through the list, not one Lancaster bomber crashed in that area.

Is that unusual considering most other planes are listed ?

Not when you look at the dates listed, the Lancaster was introduced to service in 42, I suspect that in the 43-45 lists (not visible) there may be a few, though a google search of lancaster/crash/northumberland doesn't bring any up.

[500N]

Thanks Jumpseater.

Ironic that the other night after reading this, the TV program "Heartbeat" had the episode on about a crashed Mosquito where the dig found a piece of the plane and they ended up finding the crash site.

.

[Fareastdriver]

Looking at the story another way can the phrase ‘crash landed’ be another term for ‘force landed’.

This chap gets airborne from Biggin and runs straight into low stratus with tops at about 5/600 ft. and then has a radio failure. The teaching at that time was that if one was lost above low stratus one aimed for higher ground. He was a Canadian and would not have realised that his best bet was west towards the Chilterns and Salisbury Plain; he turned north/northwest to the middle of England.

It was not working out but he still had plenty of fuel and by setting coarse pitch and +½ lb boost he would have had a fair amount of time. However, once he had cast his die then he was strapped with it so he had to continue, and he did, for over an hour; then the cloud started to break up underneath him.

He was now looking for an airfield and then he saw a long field that was not an airfield but possibly a relief landing ground. He now, because his fuel was running out, had a choice between bailing out or landing it. He was scared of stepping out of a serviceable aircraft so he landed; and he got away with it; completely undamaged.

As there was nobody around, being a Canadian, he went downhill because you will reach either the sea or a city. He got a lift into Selkirk and was taken to the Police Station where he would have told them what had happened. Not without some difficulty, especially if the sergeant had come from Glasgow. However they would have told the RAF and assured him that they would look after the aircraft because the bloke who had given him a lift had told them were it was. At the same time they would have decided that Turnhouse, being the biggest, was the best place for him to go so they gave him a railway warrant to get there. With the warrant came the directions to the pub so that he could wrap himself around a pint until the train came; and off he went.

Later on a truck arrived with a load of RAF bods. They set up camp by the aircraft and the truck went back with the information as to what state the aircraft was in. The next day a Queen Mary plus a crane lorry arrived. They lifted the spitfire, retracted the wheels, removed the wings and slotted the assemblies into a ready made cradle on the Queen Mary. They then drove of to the nearest Aircraft Repair and Recovery Unit.

Over the next day or so the aircraft would have been fully checked over and then it would have been earmarked for reissue. Eventually a young ATA girl would have flown it to an operational unit to be taken on by a squadron.

Next day it was shot down.

Somewhere in the halls of admin some scribbler is writing an official report on the whole saga. He gets a telephone call.
“Do you know that Spit that you are writing a report on has been lost?”
“No, I didn’t; thank you.”
Picks up report plus all the paperwork involved with it and slides them into the waste paper basket.

End of story

[A2QFI]

That sounds very plausible; however, Selkirk is over 300 miles from Biggin. Is that an hour's flying for a Spitfire with the power settings you mention?

[El Grifo]

Sensible interpretation Fareastdriver !

He did however say that he run out of fuel.

There would certainly be no one around.

He made no mention of the police

Geographically the pub or hotel in question was the first thing he would have encountered on reaching the town, after which he would make his way a mile or so downhill to the railway station.

Tha fact that he walked away suggests the the arcraft was not too badly beat up.

I have no idea why he failed to turn up the next day or why he checked out of his diggs a few day early. I only know that it was after his dinner and drink in a hotel in the town after visiting my studio and after the story started to circulate around the town.

In Selkirk, news travels faster than broadband. it always has !

From what I understand if he had taken off from Biggin, his subsequent flight must have been pretty short to allow him enough fuel to make the proceding 310 mile flight to Selkirk (or Dryden)

[taxydual]

Brilliant FED. Totally feasible.

Now who can we get to write the screenplay and sell it to Hollywood?

Cruise could play the Canadian. We would need a love interest, so.......

Ah, it's time for my medication again. :ok:


Seriously, this thread is becoming quite addictive. A real whodunit.

[FAStoat]

It sounds very similar to a story told to me by an American ex Eagle Squadron Pilot,at Biggin Hill Air day where I was part of the Display.He had landed at Turnhouse(Edinburgh),after having taken off from Duxford.The Briefing Officer, had given them a QDM to set on their P11 compass ring with which they could fly back to the English Coast from their sortie,assuming a Wind direction and speed as given by the Met Officer.If the wind had changed significantly from the time of the early morning briefing,as happens,a strong southerly could end up with an aircraft well over the north sea tracking towards Flamborough head and then Scotland,instead of a track to Biggin.Furthermore in the language used,an "Overshot" does not necessarily mean a landing/overshoot,but more likely an "overfly" based on elapsed time.Based on the similar story from an unaquainted pilot,the American,it is perfectly feasible and probably not uncommon to end up in Scotland!!!!After an adrenalin rush and having survived a few minutes of combat,plus the shakes,put yourself in his position.At the early stages of solo cross country flying,how many "Wrong Way Robinsons" have you come across??I have met quite a few ,humble enough to admit it!!!!

[El Grifo]

After an adrenalin rush and having survived a few minutes of combat,plus the shakes,put yourself in his position

This has always lain at the heart of my belief !

[teeteringhead]

All very believable. I nearly turned onto a TAS instead of a hdg once on the LL link route (remember that) - which would have taken me and my JP to central London (I'd probably have noticed that!).

Like the idea of a film! Kate Winslett as the ATA pilot/love interest - after all, she used to have a Nav as a father-in-law! ;)

[El Grifo]

Too late !

The lady from the B+B in question, although mature in years, has already signed on the dotted line for that particular role :ok:

[Union Jack]

Eventually a young ATS girl would have flown it to an operational unit to be taken on by a squadron. - FED

Like the idea of a film! Kate Winslett as the ATA pilot/love interest - after all, she used to have a Nav as a father-in-law! - Teeters

If my my dear departed friend Rita, with 47 different types flown during her ATA days, will forgive me, I prefer the original "ATS girl" option - much more exciting!

Jack

PS Wonderful stuff, El Grifo - as someone who spent much of his childhood in the Border hills, more power to your elbow:ok:

[El Grifo]

Well, "The Southern" is on the case and they already have been in touch with the B+B lady who is currently scanning both her memory and her records.

They tell me that they have had similar success in the past with aviation stories of this nature.

Keep up the research and suggestions though people !

[sycamore]

E-G, you mention in post #58 that the gent ` had already visited the site before he spoke to you`...Did he say how he had got there..? had he a hire car../ local taxi..? bus?..also ,as the train does not now run to Selkirk,how did he get there in the first place?
It is also rather amazing that some `40 yrs` after the event,he is able to return there,so the site must be fairly `unique` in terms of features/accessibility/buildings nearby...
The nearest Spitfire crash site that I found in `High ground wrecks &relics` refers to a Spitfire MkII P8587,which crashed on Bellyside Hill 25/3/43 ; that is close to The Cheviot (a very `Piggin Hill`),and was from Eshott,57 OTU..But that`s the other side of Jedburgh,some 25 miles from Selkirk..

[Halton Brat]

My intensive research leads me to believe that the gentleman in question was in fact Lord Lucan, who rode to Scotland on Shergar, with the Holy Grail tucked under his arm.

HB

[El Grifo]

If you read my posts you will already have had a full report of our conversations. At no time did he tell me what mode of transport he used.

Although I described Selkirk as a one horse town, it does have paved roads and a bus service.

He could have reached the town an many manner of ways.

Perhaps he had a hire car, I have no idea.

Guess you missed this belly landing then !

Glentress, Peebles.
25 June, 1944. EP276, FLS, (Flight Leaders School),a Spitfire V I belive. Listed as, "Ran out of fuel, belly-landed." Another ref' states, "Engine cut, crashlanded."

Or:-
37MU 15-6-42 611S 1-7-42 65S 16-9-42 FAAC 16-9-42 ros 52OTU 14-2-43 FAAC 27-7-43 VA Aston Down FLS 2-2-44 wheels up landing Glentrees Peebles CE 25-6-44


Grateful for your research HB, but I think you are possibly mistaken. Do not let that stop you from further research. Any input is welcome !

Out of the mouths of babes and infants etc etc :ok:

[Rakshasa]

There was the case of a covert Lysander overshooting Biggin on return from France and ending up in Scotland I believe

And that's precisely why I'm a little skeptical. A nav error that great would surely have ended up crew room banter and would almost certainly earned a note in the ORB, Just like the Lysander story. At the very least, someone would've heard of it or a story like it.

Also, locals tend to remember such things occuring, even after all this time, so it's suprising to me El Grifo seems to have drawn a blank from the older residents of Selkirk.

[El Grifo]

The Borders newspaper, or to be more accurate, one of their top guys went at this like a dog at a rabbit.

We now have a name, lot's more detail, a potential contact overseas and more info on the crash site.

Out of respect to the local newspaper who have probably cracked this, I have agreed to hold information until publishing date on Thursday .

Thanks guys !

PS. Sadly, nothing on Shergar though :ok:

[skwinty]

One of the RCAF 416 squadron pilots?

[El Grifo]

Not got a squadron just yet, but have reason now why he landed where he did.

Some of you have got it pretty well right !

[FAStoat]

Remember one of their Pilots landed an FW190A at Pembrey thinking he had crossed the Channel back to France,plus one landed at Manston,same difference!If you are not thinking straight,plus your instruments may be toppled,as only the Germans had electric fully rolling horizons,you could end up anywhere having misread your awkward P11 Compass,above cloud.I seem to remember back inthe 60s,that if you were caught above cloud you let yourself down out at what you hoped was out at sea,and turned east or west depending which side of the country you were,and found landfall,working your way to a known?land point then finding your way back to base without asking for a practice fix.That was how they had to do it 20 years earlier.Definitely not so improbable,when you add adrenalin and fuel constraints.

[El Grifo]

You been hacking my emails FAStoat :ok:

[FAStoat]

Furthermore,even in a Spitfire it does not take very long to get to Scotland!!Gillan did it in a Hurricane Prewar in about 45 minutes.Therefore having flapped about trying to get your head straight,and having no one else in the same bit of sky after it being full of aircraft a few minutes ago,your mind will wander,and get you disorientated.Above cloud your mind will definitely give your strange ideas,as these guys were not well versed instrument fliers,let alone full IR Rated Master Greens.You have to think of them as no better than student pilots just having got their wings,then equate that experience to your own at the same stage!Now how good were you ,adding the stage fright,adrenalin rush,shaking knees,clammy hands,no one to follow -----what fuel left??The wind has only to be 30 odd degrees off plus another 20 knots as you were quite high still and off on your merry way to the north would be very easy.

[Momoe]

Using 'Downwind' Gillan's effort as an example is a little unrepresentative, with a top speed of 328-335, getting an average speed of over 408mph would have been using full power or very close to it.
Once you've got over the initial panic, training takes over and you'd reduce throttle to loiter and think through your options.
A lot of pilots getting caught above a low cloud base headed east and then let down over the sea to try and get under with no worries about barrage balloons, et al.

[El Grifo]

Good wordsmithing FAStoat !

Reckon you have it bang to rights :ok:

Good call Momoe !

[FAStoat]

Granted Gillan's downwind advantage,but any mark of Spitfire would be quite significantly faster!Hurricanes were fairly sluggish by comparison!Furthermore in todays world and from the 50s onwards Training would immediately kick in,and you would be a clot with a red endorsement,but look at those times with Pilots going into combat with only a few hours on type,and only Master training on any long distance if any-Land aways were usually for the QFI to lunch with friends on other squadrons.The late Pete Thorn had loads of stories from WW2 Pilots he had met through Reunions and Displays,and most contained fairly frightened images of what occurred.I rest my case.

[Fareastdriver]

Land aways were usually for the QFI to lunch with friends on other squadrons

They used to do that in the sixties.

In fact I used to do it in the seventies. Her Majesty's aircraft were merely an extension of my social life.

[El Grifo]

Can anyone point me to a source where I can do search with the name of the pilot in question. I have his full name.

He told me he was Canadian, but due to the fact he gave the B+B lady a US address in 1984, she thought he might be American

[green granite]

2 things:

This guy might be worth contacting,

from the News & Star

Author searching for clues to air crash sites

Published at 09:04, Thursday, 20 January 2011

I AM a researcher based in Bellingham, Northumberland and one of the authors of the book Air Crash – Northumberland.

I am carrying out research for a proposed follow-up book covering air crashes around the Border Hills, in particular those around Eskdale, Liddesdale and the Bewcastle Fells. The stories for many remain untold. There were several crashes on the hills around Langholm and Newcastleton and no doubt many more further afield.

The article with his phone no, and E-Mail News & Star | Author searching for clues to air crash sites (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/author-searching-for-clues-to-air-crash-sites-1.800743?referrerPath=2.3248)


2)Also from the News & Star Times & Star | Wartime plane crash memories (http://www.timesandstar.co.uk/wartime-plane-crash-memories-1.198101?referrerPath=home/2.1681)

Three more Hurricanes came down a bit further south and their locations have also been lost . A British pilot flew into a hillside in mist near Riccarton Junction, possibly at Thaube Knowe, in October 1941 and a Canadian was lost when his fighter dived into a hill near Newcastleton in April 1943.

[El Grifo]

Thanks GG. We know about the Newcastleton one from records of a crash guard based there for some time. The Riccarton one is slightly out of range.

We know of a wheels up, belly landing of a Spitfire at Glentress Peebles. For a while we thought that might be it, thinking that the guy might have been confused about location. We also have a lead to a place named Teviothead, that is still in the frame

We now almost certainly have a crash site pretty much exactly where the guy said it was. I have been trying to contact the farmer since yesterday.

The newspaper article comes out tomorrow and we are pinning high hopes on that.

Currently we have the guys exact name, where he overshot and why he crash landed where he did . We need to confirm if we definitely have the right crash location and then see what the newspaper brings.

I will hold off posting all of the info until tomorrow at the request of the newspaper, they are pretty excited about this and they have been a great help.

Added. GG, I have been on to both guys and sent them the link to the thread.

[Fareastdriver]

The saga continues:......

When young ATA girl delivered the Spitfire back to Biggin she met the Canadian pilot whose aircraft it was. She had never been to London before and he invited her to see the sights. The had dinner and then one thing led to another; it was just another wartime romance.

The next day the ATA Oxford picked her up for her next trip and then he went off on a Rhurbarb sortie over Northern France. Unfortunately he met a very enterprising Focke Wulf 190 pilot and ended up in a field again; this time sans aeroplane. He was shipped off to a comfortable POW camp and knowing what side his bread was buttered settled down to see out the war.

Our pretty ATA pilot, meanwhile, was busy ferrying various aeroplanes from place to place but after a couple of months found that she as getting airsick more often than normal. A trip to the MO revealed that the evening in London had led to a bit more than expected. There was no chance of contacting her Canadian; she was not N of K so it was far too difficult; so she had to give up the job she loved and go home to Selkirk.

There she met and old flame who had just returned on unexpected leave and found that his wife had been supplementing the money he had sent her. They two, with similar but different troubles, got together and when his divorce came through they were married. Her son, now theirs, had an excellent upbringing and when he matured has artistic talent saw him venture into photography and open his own shop.

The Canadian had seen through the war and was now back in Canada. He flew for a time in Canada and then got a job with Pan American. This turned out to be his career and he did the whole thing from Stratocruisers to Boeing 747s. He never did get married; with a plane full of hostesses in the back who would, so he spent his money on property and oil shares.

He retired in the mid eighties and decided to retrace some memories of the war. He was wondering about this pretty young ATA girl he had met and had missed because of the fortunes of war. Whilst he was in the can, he had heard that she was expecting but had no idea whether it was his or not. He remembered his forced landing at Selkirk and also remembered that the ATA girl had mentioned it too so he thought that by going there he may find out what the truth was. Now he was retired and incredibly well heeled he travelled to Selkirk.

He did not want to draw attention to himself so he booked into a small B&B. Somewhere along the way his camera had gone AWOL but luckily there was a photographers shop in the town that might be able to take some photographs for him.

To be continued…


El Grifo
I will delete if you want.

[El Grifo]

No way Jose !

I like a bit of light relief as much as the next guy !

Are you telling me he might have been me ole Daddyo :D

[skwinty]

Cool story Fareastdriver, can't wait for the next episode.

War story authors, watch out!!!:ok:

[Fareastdriver]

The old lady who ran the B&B was quite chatty. He mentioned that he had been flying in the UK during the war which reminded her of something. She had an old school friend whose father had taught her to fly before the war. During the war she had been in the ATA moving aeroplanes from one part of the country to another. She had got into trouble with a Canadian pilot hand had come back to Selkirk. Luckily for her everything had worked out all right.

The Canadian then went to the photographers to organise the pictures. He described what and where he wanted done and then went back to the B&B for dinner. Tucking!!!!????!!!! in to haggis and chips he told her about the arrangements he had made. She then dropped the bombshell.
“That photographer is the boy that the girl I was talking about had.”

The Canadian was dumbfounded. All the memories and all the questions came flooding back. What does he do? Does he take his long lost son into his arms or does he run away from it. He wasn’t a hero. He had landed up the hill because he was too scared to bail out. He had sat in a Stalag for three years because he hadn’t had the guts to try and escape. He thought long and hard about every possibility. In the end he had made up his mind so he told the lady that he had had unexpected business and had to leave the next morning.

Next morning as he drove by the photographer’s shop he looked in and confirmed his decision was right.





Wait for it.







He’s too damned ugly to be my son.

[El Grifo]

You know what Fareastdriver ?

You almost had Me convinced there.

Right up to the end I thought you story hung together just perfectly.

Then - - I looked in the mirror and thought - - - NAW !!!!


Gracias

El G :D

PS.
Bloody story goes to press tomorrow and it appears the farmer, on whose land we are 95% sure the Spit ended up on is on holiday.

Not to worry.

Knowing Selkirk, there should be a fair bit of reaction to the piece.

[BBadanov]

Bloody story goes to press tomorrow and it appears the farmer, on whose land we are 95% sure the Spit ended up on is on holiday.

C'mon EG, what time this bloody Scottish rag come out. :cool:

BTW, back in 1914 when the Titanic sunk, headline on the Aberdeen Press & Journal was along the lines "Tragedy at Sea, Scottish Woman Drowns"

[teeteringhead]

back in 1914 when the Titanic sunk Point of Information Sir! - 1912.

And where exactly are you to have missed all the "Titanic Centenary" blah that seems to be everywhere!

[El Grifo]

The name of the pilot in question was Harold A.Raasch. He told me that he was Canadian but the landlady at the B+B thought he might be American, only because he gave an address in Sunnydale, California when he first visted the Borders in 1984.

I say "first" because it now transpires that he made annual visits, staying at the same B+B whist enagaged in the search for the crash site.

Regarding the site, we are now awaiting cofirmation that it was at Headshaw farm Ashkirk, a very short distance from Dryden.

A few of you have got it pretty well right regarding the circumstances.

He was supposed to land at Biggin Hill as previously discussed, but overshot due to cloud cover.

He flew towards the East Coast and followed the coastline north.

As visibility improved he spotted a prominent borders landmark off his left side.

This landmark was The Eildon Hills !

He explained to the landlady the he turned towards this landmark in order to get his bearings (her words, not mine)

Pretty soon he ran out of fuel and made a forced landing at what we now presume was Headshaw.

The rest of the tale was explained to the landlady exactly the way I laid it out earlier.

A letter was received by the selfsame landlady in 1990, advising that Harold had died of cancer. Although she no longer has the letter, she supplied us with the original address from 1984. We have written to that address now.

The newspaper has already received a couple of calls and I have been give the phone number of someone in Selkirk who recalls something of the event and wishes to talk to me.

All I can say is try doing a bit of digging in whatever resources are available and watch this space.

Thanks for all of your help !

Cheers
El G.

[baffman]

Thanks for the update. Nothing in the paper yet, presumably.

If Raasch had already been making annual visits, it does seem a little sad if he felt he had to make an unplanned early departure as a result of your well-intentioned spreading his story around town, following his visit to your photographic studio.

[El Grifo]

Nothing in the paper yet, presumably.



Yep. Published today ! Read my post !

If Raasch had already been making annual visits, it does seem a little sad if he felt he had to make an unplanned early departure as a result of your well-intentioned spreading his story around town, following his visit to your photographic studio.

My assumption only !

[Lono]

Departures (http://www.worldwar2pilots.net/ww2Departures.htm) - RAF Hurricane pilot "Harold Raash" listed here - passed away in 1997 according to the web page.

Roster of POW,WWII POW camp Shumen (http://shumen-camp.info/names_english.html) - also possibly listed here as O-715095 Raasch, Harold Arthur, held in Shumen POW camp (Bulgaria) 1943/1944.

See also R (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hfhm/Roster/r_names.htm)

[November4]

Wonder if this is the same person.

POW's held in Shumen POW-Camp 1943/1944 (http://forum.armyairforces.com/SHUMEN-BULGARIA-POW-LIST-m109011.aspx) lists a

O-715095 Raasch, Harold Arthur

[Lono]

There's a Harold K. Raasch with the same number as the POW above, listed as bomber crew here - Official Home of the 450th BG Association (http://www.450thbg.com/real/roster/r.shtml)

Could these all be the same guy?

[El Grifo]

Good bit of digging Lono.

Tha landlady is adamant she recieved a letter from his daughter advising her of his death in 1990

I also turned up the Shumen connection and contacted Mark LaScotte to no avail.

If it is same guy, he sure got around !!

[Lono]

Indeed.

There's a 1990 Raasch, Harold A. Lt. Col., U.S. obituary linked from here - Harold Raasch Newspaper Obituaries - Genealogy Records - GenealogyBank (http://www.genealogybank.com/gbnk/obituaries/?&minit=&utm_source=109390&utm_medium=surnm_obits_text&utm_campaign=affil&kbid=109390&m=26&fname=Harold&lname=Raasch) - it's subscription site, only a few dollars though.

[baffman]

Quote:
Nothing in the paper yet, presumably.

Yep. Published today ! Read my post !

Which newspaper, as maybe some of us might like to get hold of a copy? Nothing online yet apparently.

[BBadanov]

Point of Information Sir! - 1912.

Golly, 100 years ago, you say? Feels only like 98 years...:bored:

[November4]

Have you a date for the incident?

[El Grifo]

Sorry, I have no date !

A few people have come forward with information and memories.
Most of whom are cofusing this situation with these two supplied by an intersted party:-

14.04.43
Bristol Beaufighter IIF V8206 54 O.T.U. Charterhall
F/Sgt Haley – pilot ok
F/Sgt Fairweather – navigator radar ok
Aircraft abandoned by the crew after an engine failure and it then crashed at Drydens Farm near Selkirk, Roxburghshire

I’ve had a good look through my records and the only other wartime crash I have come up with is a Mosquito at Lindean a little further to the north of Drydens, here are the details:

30.08.44
D.H. 98 Mosquito BXX KB207 1655 M.T.U. Warboys
122956 F/Lt Ivor Alcuin-Jones pilot (K)
129448 F/Lt Douglas Augustine William Clarke navigator (K)
Pilot lost control of the aircraft after it was hit by lightning and then crashed at Lindean near Galashiels, Scottish Borders.

[November4]

My father has checked his database on Spitfires for any losses in the area that might be suitable as well as checking for the name Raasch (Rasch).

As far as he can see there was no Spitfire crash in the area. Hence why the question about a date as that would enable him to check that way.

Maybe it wasn't a Spitfire after all.

[El Grifo]

To be honest, databases are clearly incomplete.

Here is one less than 16 miles away :-

This one came down at Glentrees, Peebles.
25 June, 1944. EP276, FLS, (Flight Leaders School),a Spitfire V I belive. Listed as, "Ran out of fuel, belly-landed." Another ref' states, "Engine cut, crashlanded."

[November4]

I totally agree with you about database being incomplete but the aircraft you are quoting is not relevant to this thread. From what I can see Peebles is in the wrong direction and not near the place where the man said he crashed.

[El Grifo]

My father has checked his database on Spitfires for any losses in the area that might be suitable

Apologies. I assumed that 16 miles away would be considered "in the area"

Out of interest, did his search turn this one up at all ?

[November4]

Not as far as there is no link to the locations you gave. He has searched using Selkirk, Hawick, Dryden, Raasch, Rasch, Headshaw or Ashkirk.

I will ask him if he has any details on the one you mentioned.

[El Grifo]

It just helps to establish what is recorded and what is not.

The problem with this incident is that is not so much a crash, as an engine out, belly landing.

The fact the the pilot walked away, suggests that the aircraft was probably recovered in some sort of reasonable state.

Quite how this would be recorded in time of war is anybody's guess !

Thanks for your help.

El G.

[Stretch182]

Paper is the Southern Reporter
Mystery of vanishing Spitfire pilot - Local Headlines - The Southern Reporter (http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/news/local-headlines/mystery_of_vanishing_spitfire_pilot_1_2063365)

[El Grifo]

Bugger !

La Grifa warned me not to wear that blonde wig :eek:

[sycamore]

I think you`re actually Bernie Ecclescake ,in disguise....

[El Grifo]

Slow down Amigo !

Have you seen the chicks he dates :{

90ft Tall firebreathing whores !!!

[November4]

EG

Checked with my father re EP276. He has the same details but believes that FLS is Fighter Leaders School

[El Grifo]

Thanks for that November.

So far the only positive response from the newspaper article is from somone who wants to supply me details by letter. That will take some time !!

[phantomstreaker]

Mungo Park was from Selkirk and flew spitfires on 74 at Biggin Hill? are you sure it wasnt a ghost:eek:

[El Grifo]

No, definitley very wordly !

During my conversation with the newspaper guy today this name came up as a side issue.

Can you give me more info on that please ?

We now have a 90 yr old who remembers an aircraft, not a wreck being removed from the exact location. It was transported by a large RAF truck.

Further enquiries are being made to establish if he can remember the type

Thanks
El G

[Fareastdriver]

It was transported by a large RAF truck.

Further enquiries are being made to establish if he can remember the type

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Queebnmary.jpg


It was a Queen Mary. I told you in Post 63.

[El Grifo]

No arguement there Fareastdriver !

Apart from the word "told". Suggested would be more accurate :ok:

[andrewmcharlton]

Read the thread with interest and fascination as a Northumbrian not too far away...

Is this your man? Had a scan of my US Genealogical records and find only one match (with middle initial) in California although a couple of much earlier with same name but obviously not him due to dates of death....

Name: Harold A. Raasch SSN: 398-14-7517 Last Residence: 95472 Sebastopol, Sonoma, California, United States of America Born: 21 Feb 1924 Died: 20 Feb 2000 State (Year) SSN issued: Wisconsin (Before 1951)

I have PM'd you some further corroborative information and think he has a son in California if this is yer man. PM me if you need any data or US records....

[El Grifo]

Thanks for your efforts amc.

The lady at the B+B received notification of his death in 1990 however.

Although he signed into the B+B in 1948 with this address :-

834 Dartshire Way, Sunnyvale, California.

He did say to me that he was Canadian.

Please keep digging if you can !

Thanks
El Grifo

[andrewmcharlton]

El Grifo,

I read it as "in the 90's" which might have been a close match especially as this guys matching military enlistment papers show him as joining the air corps, check your pm's.

Wisconsin also is bang on the Canadian border, no other obvious birth death or marriage hits thus far but I will keep checking.

Good hunting

AMC

[El Grifo]

Further checks ongoing as per pm.

Keep up the good work !!

El G.

[El Grifo]

Just received this from Selkirk.

It relates to the 90 year old who knew about the 2 local crashes :-

He witnessed both the Beaufighter crash which he says was at Dryden and what he said was a Hurricane flown by a Norwegian that crashed at Headshaw.

At this rate half the RAF's wartime losses are going to be listed as happening in the Selkirk area!!!


Bugger !

Hurricane flown by a Norwegian vs a Spitfire flown by a tall Canadian !

Both supposed to have happened in the same location.

One wonders if memories are playing tricks on whatever side !

[skwinty]

I think that Harold A Raasch was groundcrew for 40 squadron, 6th bomber group and spent some time in a POW camp.

At this POW camp he met the pilot of the crash landed aircraft. They developed a lasting friendship due to some act of kindess or life saving action.

The pilot relates the crashlanding to Raasch and some significance to this event is implied.

After the war, the pilot died and Raasch travels annually to the crash site in remembrance of the pilot and their war experience.

Raasch found it easier to say that he was the pilot and thus not have a long emotional story to tell. On his visit to El Grifo he finds out that the whole town is abuzz with his story and would rather discretely withdraw.

[El Grifo]

I think we may be getting somewhere nearer the truth.

I never said before, but the firm impression I got was that there was an element of deceit or shame involved.

I have expressed this to one or two in pm's, not really wanting to air it publically.

At the time, without any knowledge on anything which has turned up here. I reckoned he had panicked and run from a fight, flown North till his fuel ran out.

Why would I think this ? Hard to tell, just an impression that is all.Something did not sit right

Now we can find no records. We have a Mosquito, a Beaufighter and maybe a Hurricane all coming down within a very few miles of each other, but no Spitfire and no Canadian.

Having got that out in the open can anyone guide us on a clearer track.

Here are a couple of quotes from people who have contacted the newspapers :- Interesting side point is that the RCAF's 404 Sqn was equipped with Beaufighters and was still based in Morayshire in 1945

And unrelated to this incident probably:-

read with interest your article dated 19 January which brought to mind an incident which occurred in the area in 1940/41.
My family was evacuated from Edinburgh to stay in Kirklea and one afternoon whilst returning there from Ashkirk school my younger brother and
I heard the sound of a low flying aircraft followed by a loud explosion and flames which
shot up over the crest of the hill lying north of the road near to Aleneuk poultry farm.
Being curious 8 and 10 year olds we ran over the hill until we reached the site.This was
more a crash than a crash landing.There was smoking, burning debris spread over a wide area. No -one could have stepped out alive.
Our intention to investigate further and to collect a memento was foiled by a local worker
who chased us away.
Later news confirmed that it was a british plane and that the pilot was unhurt.
In that case he must have baled out earlier.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I'd suggest that he'd be far more familiar with the aircraft type he was flying than any other detail if he were "kosher"... Since there is no record of a crash and making the assumption for the moment that he's telling the truth, (since that's been deemed possible), he'd have to have "landed" the airframe such that it wasn't badly enough damaged for it to be called a crash. That's a tall order unless he did it wheels down in a field.

Does the terrain in the vicinity he claims to have come down in allow for such an "arrival"?

[El Grifo]

The location of the site is referred to as "The Bog"

Wheels up and on the belly might have just been possible. Flat and slippy !

[Airborne Aircrew]

So... For the engineers here...

Assuming a near perfect belly landing on soft, slippery ground, what Cat could you expect to get away with on a Spitfire?

The reason for the question is that if the Cat were low enough it might not be reported as a crash.

[El Grifo]

Suspicions notwithstanding, it has to be remembered that his daughter in the US (or Canada) was well aware of his visits and the reason for these visits.

She was the one who called the landlady of the B+B in 1990 to advise of the death of Harold A Raasch.

We have written to the address in the US supplied by the fellow on his original visit in 1984. Whether we will get any form of reply is anyones guess.

Can anyone out there help to check 834 Dartshire Way, Sunnyvale, California ?

[taxydual]

Putting the address into Google Maps

Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl)

shows the address exists

[footpad6]

And putting it into Reverse Address finder shows that it is the Griffiths that live there now.

Free People Search | WhitePages (http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindNearby?site_id=12116&street=834+Dartshire+Way&where=CA)

People Finder shows a Harold A Raasch still living in Sunnyvale - with a 61 year old relative (could this be a Grandson?)

Search Results - PeopleFinders.com (http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/searchpreview.aspx?searchtype=public-record&fn=HAROLD&ln=RAASCH&age=&city=&state=CA&utm_source=legacy&utm_campaign=noresults&utm_content=viewall#)

[Aerials]

Sorry, I tried to make a fancy one-word hyperlink and I think I failed but this should be the address:

834 Dartshire Way, Sunnyvale, California, United States - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=834+Dartshire+Way,+Sunnyvale,+California,+United+Stat es&hl=en&ll=37.346526,-122.017207&spn=0.00095,0.001206&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=16.397676,39.506836&oq=834+Dartshire+Way,+Sunnyvale,+California&vpsrc=6&hnear=834+Dartshire+Way,+Sunnyvale,+California+94087,+United +States&t=h&z=20)

Edited: It worked!!!

[El Grifo]

Hotting up guys !! We might only be a phone call away.

can anyone come up with a phone number.

If so I will on it like Greased Lightning :ok:

[Lono]

Hotting up guys !! We might only be a phone call away.

can anyone come up with a phone number.



Check PMs.

[El Grifo]

A recent updated article in the local Scottish newspaper lends credence to squintys theory.

The conditions are the same and the location is exact, only the aircraft type and pilot nationality differ :-

Mr Phaup, who says he was in his 20s at the time of the next incident, says this involved a Hurricane fighter being flown by a Norwegian.

“It too came out of the fog and made a couple of attempts to land in front of the house at Ashkirk Town. He then tried to land at Headshaw, where there was some flat ground, but the aircraft went into some ditches and turned over. It happened opposite the old quarry.

“People from Selkirk came up on their bicycles to look at the aircraft. We went up to see it as well. It was lying upside down and RAF men were taking it apart and putting it on a low-loader to take away.

“Police told us the pilot had been a Norwegian and he’d survived just a broken nose after running out of fuel.”




The fuller article appears here :-Ronn (http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/news/local-headlines/ronn_s_wartime_spitfire_story_grows_wings_1_2076946)

I have been totaly occupied all week but plan to check on the name leads supplied when time allows this week. Thanks for the leads !

El G.

[glojo]

Much respect to your for the way you have conducted yourself regarding some of the replies. Fingers crossed you eventually solve this very interesting mystery :ok:

[El Grifo]

Thanks glojo !

Just back on it now and sadly the suggestion of footpad6 bears no fruit, as the site is only open to US residents.

Can anyone help ?

People Finder shows a Harold A Raasch still living in Sunnyvale - with a 61 year old relative (could this be a Grandson?)

Search Results - PeopleFinders.com

[El Grifo]

As with many situations like this, any search comes up with more questions than answers !

We know what sparked this whole thing off, from my very first post.

We know that a man called Harold A. Raasch checked into a B+B in 1984 in Selkirk and re-visited several times over subsequent years.

We know that this man was at least provably, partly on the level as his supplied address ties up with the searches people have done and demonstrated here on Pprune.

We know he died in 1990, because his daughter called the B+B lady to let her know.

What we cannot find, is any record of anyone of that name flying the UK military during WW11.

Neither can we find any record of a Sptifire crash landing at Headshaw Farm and the pilot walking away.

What we can find, is an eyewitness report of a Hurricane with a Norwegian Pilot crash landing in almost identical circumstances, in exactly the same place and walking from the site with only minor injuries. See below :-

Mr Phaup, who says he was in his 20s at the time of the next incident, says this involved a Hurricane fighter being flown by a Norwegian.

“It too came out of the fog and made a couple of attempts to land in front of the house at Ashkirk Town. He then tried to land at Headshaw, where there was some flat ground, but the aircraft went into some ditches and turned over. It happened opposite the old quarry.

“People from Selkirk came up on their bicycles to look at the aircraft. We went up to see it as well. It was lying upside down and RAF men were taking it apart and putting it on a low-loader to take away.

“Police told us the pilot had been a Norwegian and he’d survived just a broken nose after running out of fuel.”


Curiouser and curiouser !

What we also know is that a Harold A Raasch was groundcrew for 40 squadron, 6th bomber group and became a POW at Shuman, BUL camp on 03 July 1944.

One of our more forward thinking contributers here came up with a very interesting idea

I think that Harold A Raasch was groundcrew for 40 squadron, 6th bomber group and spent some time in a POW camp.

At this POW camp he met the pilot of the crash landed aircraft. They developed a lasting friendship due to some act of kindess or life saving action.

The pilot relates the crashlanding to Raasch and some significance to this event is implied.

After the war, the pilot died and Raasch travels annually to the crash site in remembrance of the pilot and their war experience.

Raasch found it easier to say that he was the pilot and thus not have a long emotional story to tell. On his visit to El Grifo he finds out that the whole town is abuzz with his story and would rather discretely withdraw.



This idea, although only an idea, ticks most of the boxes.
Anyone who might have any other idea, is most welcome to share it here or via pm.

The closest we got to tracing at least family of Harold A. Raasch was supplied by another ardent Ppruner. Unfortunately the lead on site is only available within the US.
If anyone from the US would care to pick up on the lead I of course would be very grateful. Look at entry #3

Search Results - PeopleFinders.com (http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/searchpreview.aspx?searchtype=public-record&fn=HAROLD&ln=RAASCH&age=&city=&state=CA&utm_source=legacy&utm_campaign=noresults&utm_content=viewall#)

I am far from abandoning the search, I could simply do with some help with locating the Craig L Raasch who is stated as being a possible relative.

Come on Americans, join in the search !!

Thanks for all of the help I have received so far. You never know where the next bit of information will come from. It may be the bit that ties this whole tale together !

Cheers
El Grifo

[SL Hardly-Worthitt]

PM sent - best of luck!
H-W :ok:

[Chugalug2]

This idea, although only an idea, ticks most of the boxes.
I agree, so having researched Mr Raasch might our aviation history sleuths now turn their attention to the alleged Hurricane and its Norwegian pilot? Find out who he was, if he was a POW and if so where, and this intriguing tale could then have a possible explanation....or not?

[finestkind]

El Grifo,

The POW idea sounds feasible. Need to find out who the Norwegian was that was piloting the aircraft and what happened to him. The other problem with this scenario is why state a Spitfire when it was a Hurricane. It’s not as if Mr Raasch would not know one end of an aircraft from the other being a groundie.

Good luck

[Chugalug2]

Given that the Luftwaffe's finest often defaulted to "Achtung Spitfeuer" even if being attacked by Hurricanes, I don't see Mr Raasch's confusion as being very significant. Why, when we flew the pride of the RAF into a USAF base we often had to explain the Handley Page Hastings to them as a "4 engined Gooney Bird", I mean! Perhaps our Norwegian pilot explained his steed as being "a bit like a Spitfire"?

[El Grifo]

I will certainly start searching for the Hurricane incident and anyone is welcome to get on the case. Give it a go Chugalug, it can be quite interesting

But for now, we are getting new leads on Harold A Raasch.

Having come this far in that particular direction, it would be a tough call to dilute efforts !

After all, the answer will surely lie with any remaining members of the Raasch family.

Thanks All !

El G.

[El Grifo]

A resourceful sleuth came up with some details which fit the bill almost perfecty. Sadly the site in question does not accept international credit cards.

Would there be a benevolent soul out there in the US willing to spend a few bucks getting the details so that I can call the various members of the family.

Check the second entry down.

Find People Named Cheryl Smith In Los Altos, CA - Intelius.com (http://www.intelius.com/Find-Phone-Address/Los+Altos-CA/Cheryl-Smith.html)

[Airborne Aircrew]

El G:

It's done...

Check your PMs

[goofer3]

Further details on Spitfire EP276 from earlier in the thread that force landed at Glentress, Peebles, 25/06/44. The pilot was S/Ldr Douglas Ian Benham. (Later W/Cdr. DFC. AFC. OBE). The original hand writing is a little hard to make out in places but the engine stopped owing to lack of fuel and pilot executed a forced landing in field with wheels up. Aircraft and the Merlin 45 both Cat E. "30 gall's of petrol found in top tank. Mod 450 not carried out". In the "Blame and Discip. Action" section the Senior NCO and Cpl Fitter were in the naughty book as "not conversant with type", and, "wrong non modified tank fitted".
W/Cdr.Douglas Benham died in Withybush Hospital, Haverfordwest, 28/10/2009.

[El Grifo]

Interesting bit of sleuthing there goofer !

Still no further down the road to clarfying the supposed facts surrounding the tale of Harold A. Raasch.

Had an email from Headshaw Farm tonight, but it just covers facts already known.

The possible contact in the US seems reluctant to communicate.

I think I may try and force his had in the next few days. Nothing to lose really !

El G.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Any further updates, El Grifo?

[El Grifo]

Nope, nothing ! Despite the father of the visitor to my shop and the alleged pilot, promising to come back to me with clarification after lent (man of the cloth you see) I have heard nothing.

I emailed him again asking if he was now in a quieter period and if so could we pick up where we left off. Up until now, nada !!

I can only assume there is some kind of family issue here, something that he does not want to share.

Sad really because this is trully a mystery that I would like to solve. I have carried it for many years !

Thanks
El G.

Edited to add :-

Personally I think Skwinty has cracked it based on the fact that a Norwegian pilot was reported locally to have crash landed in almost I identical circumstances at the exact same location and walked from the wreck :-

I think that Harold A Raasch was groundcrew for 40 squadron, 6th bomber group and spent some time in a POW camp.

At this POW camp he met the pilot of the crash landed aircraft. They developed a lasting friendship due to some act of kindess or life saving action.

The pilot relates the crashlanding to Raasch and some significance to this event is implied.

After the war, the pilot died and Raasch travels annually to the crash site in remembrance of the pilot and their war experience.

Raasch found it easier to say that he was the pilot and thus not have a long emotional story to tell. On his visit to El Grifo he finds out that the whole town is abuzz with his story and would rather discretely withdraw.

[glojo]

You have put an amazing amount of research into this project and how sad that you have not got the ending we were all hoping for. Is your e-mail definitely getting opened? I am just thinking that as the years go by then sadly Anno Domini tends to pull rank :(

[El Grifo]

Looks like my quest has reached an inconclusive conclusion !!

The Father of the alleged pilot, or to be 100% precise, the father of Harold A Raasch, a man of the cloth no less, after initially agreeing to assist in my quest, has now turned feral for some reason.

In response to my recent email asking if he was available for discussion yet, the content included :-

I'm asking you to stop and refrain from any more research into the life of my father. You do not have my permission to continue with any more research, let alone filling in the gaps with some crazy story that has nothing to do with my father. I've made the request and will not make it again. Any more research on your part, and contacts with me, and I will contact a third person to deal with this.

I do not know what kind of emotional needs you have in pursuing this. Do not contact me again. I kindly encourage you to focus your energies on something else. You do not have my permission to pursue any more information about my deceased father. For you to turn this around, focusing only on you and your needs, displays gross misunderstanding of privacy and respect. Do not contact me again. I am bringing this matter now to the attention of my lawyer because you have not respected my privacy or the memory of a member of my family. All future emails from you will remain unopened

I explained to him that his Father came to me, I did not go to him. It did not help.

Guess that is game over.

LIke most good mysteries, the more one learns the more questions are raised.
It is more of a mystery now than it was at the outset !

I have at no point identified the person with whom I am in communication with therefore feel it is not inappropriate to share his communication, seeing that this thread hs gone on for so long and has created quite some interest.

[Tashengurt]

This is seeming more and more like a Dan Brown novel. Though less predictable.

[Milo Minderbinder]

I'm going to inject an element of the surreal into this now, but it could be worth thinking about
Assuming the Raasch you met WAS the man who was supposedly in the prison camp, how do we know that the "real" Rassch was the man who returned after the Russians liberated the prison? Or whether during his time with the Russians he was "turned"? It could explain the family reticence

I notice also from Google searches another Harold A Rassch who died in 2000 listed on the genealogical databases. Are you sure you have the correct man?

[El Grifo]

Let me sleep on that Milo. It has been a long daY !!

[Nervous SLF]

I have been reading and watching a video about some scumbags in a so called church who are very nasty to servicemen.
They are also very nasty at servicemens funerals so I wonder if this man of the cloth is a member of said church and doesn't want
to be reminded that his father was once a decent chap as this so called man of the cloth would be extremely embarrassed in his church.
I cannot bring myself to use the capital C when talking about "that" church as to me it isn't a real Church.

[KN647]

I am in Calfornia on a flying holiday for the next four weeks if you would like me to do anything?
It maybe that he had told the story so many times in the US that he had come to believe it himself. However when he heard that someone was investigating the circumstances in detail he took fright?
Maybe the family are trying to protect his memory?
It is sorry to end this way as it has been an interesting ride . . . Maybe best to let sleeping dogs . . . . .

[El Grifo]

If I posted the full content of the communication from "The Vicar" you would probably not want to go within a mile of the man.

I get the impression he my subscribe to the the armed version of christianity :ok:

Thanks anyway !

El G.

[mini]

A facinating tale.

Forgive my ignorance but how does a member of the Ground Crew end up a POW?

It seems the Norwegian may indeed hold the key to this mystery.

[Milo Minderbinder]

He wasn't ground crew
A Harold K Raasch, with the same service number of O-715095 is listed as a crewmember here Official Home of the 450th BG Association (http://www.450thbg.com/real/crews/walrath.shtml)
He is listed as a POW, the name discrepancy must be a typo
He was a bombardier in 722nd Squadron of the 450th Bomb Group

He was in B-24H 42-52085 "Stinky's Siren" when it was lost over Rumania
This is the loss report
Official Home of the 450th BG Association (http://www.450thbg.com/real/macr/holder/6764.shtml)


And to knock another theory on the head - theres no Norweigan listed on the records as a POW at that Shumen campsite

[Airborne Aircrew]

El Grifo

If I posted the full content of the communication from "The Vicar" you would probably not want to go within a mile of the man.

There's been a bit of publicity recently about an act passed by George Bush back in 2006, (I think), it was called the Stolen Valour act. If the "vicars" dad was "playing the part" of someone else it's quite possible your vicar is a bit gunshy hence the attitude.

[Milo Minderbinder]

From
Page 7, Evening Independent, March 3, 1947: NewspaperARCHIVE.com (http://newspaperarchive.com/evening-independent/1947-03-03/page-7)

"ANNOUNCEMENT is made of the marriage of Miss Janice Ken daughter of Mr and Mrs Walter Kennedy of Lake Cable rd to 1st Lt Harold A Raasch son of Mr and Mrs A J Raasch of Milwaukee The Rev William T Strong performed the ceremony in the First United church in San Francisco The bride wore a gray dressmaker suit with a shoulder corsage of white orchids Mrs Raasch is a graduate of the Andrew School for Girls at Willoughby and Canton Actual Business college and attended Kent State university Canton She was formerly with the Canterbury Book House Canton Lt Raasch attended the University of Wisconsin and Leyton Art school in Milwaukee He has been in the army air forces five years During hostilities he served in European theater He is now attached to the intelligence division of the air forces in Manila Mrs Raasch has returned to Canton and plans to join Lt Raasch in Manila"

Note - Canton and Willoughby are both in Ohio

From
Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/376hbgva/message/5776?var=1)
(an old post from 2002)
"Dear Liberandos,
I just discovered your site and it's great.
Where do I find list of crew rosters? I believe that my father, Lt. Col.
Harold A. Raasch, USAAF Retired, who died February 2000, served with the
376st. I don't know if he flew on famous Aug. 1, 1943 raid, but I do know
that he was shot down over Giurgiu, Romania on July 3, 1944.
Any information would be gratefully appreciated.
Happy Holidays, Tim Raasch"

Checking through online records, the Harold A Raasch from Sebastopol California (who died in 2000 - not the 1990's) previously lived in Virginia and has two listed relatives - Craig and Jinky. NOT Tim. No record of a previous Wisconsin address.

However checking on the USA Social Security death records shows that he WAS born in Winconsin
see Harold A. Raasch: Death Record from the Social Security Death Index (SSDI) - GenealogyBank (http://www.genealogybank.com/gbnk/ssdi/doc/ssdi/v1:1131B51CAE253F68) (you'll have to log in - its free)
So, assuming the guy gave his correct name, and that there wasn't another Harold A Raasch in the air force at the same time (and no-one so far has found one) - its the same chap
The only other Harold Raasch who died in the same period was in 1992 in Nebraska - where he was born
Harold Raasch Social Security Death Index (SSDI) Records - GenealogyBank (http://www.genealogybank.com/gbnk/ssdi/?&minit=&utm_source=109390&utm_medium=surnm_obits_text&utm_campaign=affil&kbid=109390&m=26&fname=Harold&lname=Raasch)

I wonder if Tim Raasch still has his Yahoo account live? It could be worth an attempt at contact. He at least was interested in 2002 in his fathers history.
After all, the guy had an interesting record: Bombardier, shot down, POW, then post war in intelligence in the Phillipines. Retired/left as Lt Col. Nothing to be ashamed of.


An obituary was published in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on 16 March 2000. It can be accesed via a paysite at
Harold Raasch Obituary - Search Harold Raasch Obituaries - GenealogyBank (http://www.genealogybank.com/gbnk/obituaries/?sort=ibd%3AA&lname=Raasch&fname=harold&kwinc=&kwexc=&formDate=&group=)

[Milo Minderbinder]

now this is where the confusion starts
on this page we have listed a Harold A Raasch PFC who was groundcrew with 6th Bomb Group - and entitled to the "China Offensive Battle Star" which surely implies he'd be nowhere near Europe, let alone Scotland
The 6th Bomb Group: Ground Crew Listing - 40 BS (http://philcrowther.com/6thBG/6bgcrewlist40G.html)

So - if this record is correct - there were two. Which one appeared in Scotland?
But if there were two - there is no death record in the USA for the relevant period

[El Grifo]

To add further to the confusion, The Rev Tim Raasch is the one with whom I have been communicating !!!!

[Milo Minderbinder]

I wonder if the other two would be more communicative?

[El Grifo]

The person who called the Bed+Breakfast establishment to advise of the passing of Harold Raaasch was his daughter. I spoke again to the proprietor a few minutes ago but sh has no records of address or phone number.

Can you help with any contact details ?

Maybe we can get this back on track :ok:

[Milo Minderbinder]

Well, Jinky has to be either daughter or daughter-in-law, and there can't be many with that name
Which makes me think this Facebook account is hers
https://www.facebook.com/people/Jinky-Raasch/100000126392327

Looks like probably daughter in law
these are the details of the two relatives - both now in Virginia
Craig Raasch Address, Phone, Email & Records | PeopleFinders (http://www.peoplefinders.com/d/Craig+Raasch/1-209707887)
Jinky Raasch Public Records, Phone Number & Address (http://www.peoplefinders.com/p/Jinky+Raasch/1-903038006)

Note Jinky has three entries
Can't get more without paying money

I can't see any way of tracing the daughter without a name

[El Grifo]

Can't seem to open that page and cannot find the name in a facebook search !

Any Ideas ?

Appreciate your input Milo :ok:

[El Grifo]

Scrub That Milo. Have now requested "friend" Lets see what transpires :D

[Milo Minderbinder]

sorry -- I tried to abbreviate the Facebook link but it went wrong - the full link is there now

[El Grifo]

Whist waiting for a facebok reply I found this :- Craig Raasch Address, Phone, Email & Records | PeopleFinders (http://www.peoplefinders.com/d/Craig+Raasch/1-209707887)

Can't subscribe as it is for the US only:ugh:

[Milo Minderbinder]

While I've been looking at this today I've become increasingly aware that this may be a case of mistaken location.
Raasch is a German name.
An Obfw F.Raasch was lost in a Ju-88 off Sumburgh Head, Shetland on 24/03/1943 see Aviation Research Group Orkney Shetland - Shetland Underwater Sites (http://www.crashsiteorkney.com/page31.htm)

I can't help wondering if the old chap was trying to find the resting place of a relative - maybe trying to complete his family tree and simply got the location wrong. To a non-local any Scots name beginning with S sounds much like any other. Selkirk / Sumburgh / Shetland....
I can see that he'd be shy of revealing his true intent, the Spitfire story would be close enough to bring up any memories of local crashes without revealing he was interested in German crashes

Total speculation based on very little, but somehow it has a better ring than anything else I've seen so far

[El Grifo]

The thing is Milo, Harold made around seven or more visits to the town from the mid seventies onwards always staying at the same place and often hiring a car to get around.

His story fits like a glove to the "Norwegian" tale same story same exact location, Hurricane not spitfire !

Mr Phaup, who says he was in his 20s at the time of the next incident, says this involved a Hurricane fighter being flown by a Norwegian.

“It too came out of the fog and made a couple of attempts to land in front of the house at Ashkirk Town. He then tried to land at Headshaw, where there was some flat ground, but the aircraft went into some ditches and turned over. It happened opposite the old quarry.

“People from Selkirk came up on their bicycles to look at the aircraft. We went up to see it as well. It was lying upside down and RAF men were taking it apart and putting it on a low-loader to take away.

“Police told us the pilot had been a Norwegian and he’d survived just a broken nose after running out of fuel.”

[Milo Minderbinder]

In which case, was the 722nd Squadron or the 450th Bomb Group ever based in the UK? Where would he have had a chance to meet a Norwegian pilot? Unlikely in Italy, which is where they were based when he crashed.
And as I said earlier, no record of a Norwegian in that prison camp


Thinking about it a bit more, the Norwegian theory could work IF the Norwegian pilot was one of those who was trained in Canada, and IF Rassch had crossed the border and enlisted with the RCAF - transferring later when the USA joined the war. But theres no evidence of either.

Raasch was born in Feb 1924 - whats the earliest he could have signed up in the RCAF? 1942 at 18? By then the USA was in the war anyway How long would his Bombardier training have taken?
Raasch's aircraft crashed - and he was taken POW - 3 July 1944.
Do we have a date for the Norwegian crash?

I've just been looking at Nordic Aviation During WW2 (http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/) which aims to list all Scandinavian aircraft casualties, but theres nothing which matches

[El Grifo]

Bearing in mind that it was the local police who said that the pilot was Norwegian, this could be leading the story up the garden path !

I can try to establish the age of the witness (Mr Phaup) probably maybe even the year when he witnessed the crash.

Also bear in mind that Raasch told me he was actually Canadian, if that helps.

[Milo Minderbinder]

could you have misunderstood him saying he was in the Canadian Forces? rather than actually being Canadian?
just a hypothesis

Otherwise we have to assume theres a Canadian of the same name who lived in California who has not yet shown up....I can understand a canadian not showing up, but not one in California, he'd be on a list somewhere

How easy is it to pull service records of USA airmen? It would be interesting to see when and where both Lt Col Raasch and PFC Raasch served

[El Grifo]

Milo. I have gone over things again and can only confirm that the guy did tell me that he was Canadian.

I talked to the B+B lady in Scotland last night, she thought he was American. He had stayed with her several times, each time on the quest to locate and revisit the scene of the crash landing.

His story was that unable to land his Spitfire at Biggin because of fog, he followed the east coast until he evenually spotted the Eildon Hills in the Scotish Borders poking out of the mist. He turned and headed towards them in order to get his bearings. He then run out of fuel and made a belly landing on the moss at Headshaw.

This chimes very well with the storty from Mr Phaup

Mr Phaup, who says he was in his 20s at the time of the next incident, says this involved a Hurricane fighter being flown by a Norwegian.

“It too came out of the fog and made a couple of attempts to land in front of the house at Ashkirk Town. He then tried to land at Headshaw, where there was some flat ground, but the aircraft went into some ditches and turned over. It happened opposite the old quarry.

“People from Selkirk came up on their bicycles to look at the aircraft. We went up to see it as well. It was lying upside down and RAF men were taking it apart and putting it on a low-loader to take away.

“Police told us the pilot had been a Norwegian and he’d survived just a broken nose after running out of fuel.”


Another person From Selkirk called me last night only to say that he remembers Raasch weel as he used to hire a car from him most times on his visits. He remembers him in much the way as I do, Tall distiguished gentelman with a long poplin type raincoat. He also confirms that Raasch made multiple visits to the town from the Sseventies onwards.

Whe the landlady of the B+B received the notification of his death from the daughter, it came from the US. She has no further details.

[Airborne Aircrew]

El Grifo:

Sorry, but the two stories really don't gel... There's a huge difference between a wheels up forced landing due to running out of fumes and several go around's before selecting another landing ground and making a final approach.

No matter how fuzzy the memories would get a single approach with no fuel wouldn't be confused with several attempts to land with fuel. At least, I don't think the two could be confused.

[El Grifo]

I am only trying to make sense of the situation.

The Mr Phaup in question must be well into his eighties.
The flat land in question is in fact a bog and about the only large flat area around. Maybe the guy was circling to dump height, I don't know.

The thing is, the similarities rather than the differences are what get me !

Foggy/misty day, exact same location, pilot escapes with no injury.

If you have any other theories, then great ! I am simply pushing possibliities as far as poss in order to try and solve this mystery.

Should I be asking any more questions locally. I understand that Mr Phaup is still alive !

Cheers
El G.

[Milo Minderbinder]

FWIW I've found that Raasch is (at least in the USA) a Lutheran name and a number of them emigrated to Wisconsin from eastern Germany in the 1860s.
Short enough period for there still to be some family ties with the old country given the strong Lutheran traditions of family


In a different direction, just took a look at Honours and Awards » Air Force Association of Canada (http://airforce.ca/honours-awards/)
Checked for awards/decorations of anyone named Raasch in the RCAF, or any Canadians in the RAF. Totally blank result.
So, if he was Canadian, he didn't get any decorations.

[El Grifo]

So are we supposing that the Rev Tim Raasch who was originally happy to help with enquiries about his father, the guy that visited my shop, has nothing to do with anything.

That seemed to be a hot lead that came to and end very abruptly for some reason.

I admire your sleuthing skills Milo, Do you have the time or inclination to investigate that further.

I have just returned from a job In Cuba and I going crazy with post production right now !

TF its Friday :ok:

Harold Raasch was my father. Not yours. I appreciate that you met him years ago and was struck by his story. I have requested once and will do so again, as is my right as a member of the family, that you refrain from any more research into the life and journey of my father.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Question
Is there a confirmed link between the man who visited your shop and claimed to be Canadian, and Tim Raasch's father? I don't think that has been established at all. The linkage is just conjecture.
The father was born in Wisconsin, not Canada, in 1924. We know he served in the USA forces and was probably called up in 1941 or 1942, so very unlikely he served with the Canadians unless he joined up underage - but we have no evidence of that. All we know is that he was a bombardier in a wing based in Italy, and I would suggest never visited the UK.
That rules out any contact with a Norwegian pilot - unless some Norwegians were trained in the USA?? Or unless Raasch did first join up in Canada.
But then why visit a location where someone else just happened to have a bad landing? Its not a memorial site - no-one died there.
Raasch himself couldn't havebeen flying the Hurricane - he was a Bombardier, not a pilot.
The other Harold Raasch we've found was ground crew based out in the far east, so the chances of it being him are even less.

So what are we faced with?
Either
1) A THIRD Harold A Raasch, a Canadian whom so far we have not identified, who later moved to California. But if he existed, he's not showing up in online records
or
2) A walter mitty
or
3) We've found the correct guy, but his motives have been misidentified. It seems likely that he was returning in some act of commoration, but of who? A Norwegian pilot he was unlikely ever to have met, at a site that had no significance? Unlikely. A family member? More likely. But which family member - there's no matching crash. I think its more likely that somewhere along the line he mixed up the crash at Selkirk, with the Ju-88 crash at Sumburgh, Shetland, and that he thought thats where Obfw F.Raasch died.
He wouldn't have been able to visit the family, as it appears they probably came from EAST Germany.
I think he had a need to find a distant relative, got the site wrong, and kept his real reasons for visiting to himself. A reason that his relatives have no sympathy for and simply want to forget

[El Grifo]

We've found the correct guy, but his motives have been misidentified
From day one, this is what I have firmly believed, hence the reason the guy hightailed it when the story seeped out. Minutes after his visit, I called the local newspaper to get some background, they had none.

It is a very small town of about 8000 pop. The guy had been visiting for several years and was known by sight. He went for dinner to a local hotel that evening, I am sure someone must have said something to him. He left the next day without showing up for the photos (which I incidentaly had offered to do for free)

My personal thoughts then were that he had taken off from Biggin into a fight, panicked and turned tail north, flying till his fuel ran out. I smelled a rat then and the stink continues.

The Shetland thing takes on more significance in light of your theory :-

I think its more likely that somewhere along the line he mixed up the crash at Selkirk, with the Ju-88 crash at Sumburgh, Shetland, and that he thought thats where Obfw F.Raasch died.
He wouldn't have been able to visit the family, as it appears they probably came from EAST Germany.
I think he had a need to find a distant relative, got the site wrong, and kept his real reasons for visiting to himself. A reason that his relatives have no sympathy for and simply want to forget

Could Raasch's relationship with the other Raasch be anything other that a distant relative, could the 2 have met in the Camp.

Is the Rev Tim frightened of old stories being resurrected being a man of the cloth and all ??

[Milo Minderbinder]

The Ju-88 crashed 24/03/1943
The B-24 crashed 03/06/44 so they could not have met in the camp

And its clear he couldn't have been officially flying that Hurricane - he was a Bombardier. And if he had pinched it, I'm sure he wouldn't have got into intelligence post war.

[El Grifo]

It seems pretty clear that Harold A and the Rev Tim are connected. The latter knows of my quest, including locations etc. I doubt he would be making it up.

If we wipe the whole slate clean and start the search from scratch, how would you persue it Milo. Sometimes blind alleys end up turning into supposed fact in a search like this !

[Milo Minderbinder]

three ways of attacking it
1) if its possible, access the service records of anyone with that name in the RAF, RCAF and USAAF. Is that possible?
2) identify other relatives and contact them
3) study the genealogical histories that are available online for the Raasch family in USA and Canada. However that costs money!

What would be nice is if a photo of Lt Col Raasch could be found on the web - then it may be possible to check with the locals whether its the right man, though after all these years....

Tim is clearly related to AN Harold A, and knows of your interest because of what you've told him. But we don't know if he is "the" Harold A, though if that man did indeed live in California it looks likely - as long as we accept he lied about being Canadian

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,
I first saw your exiting and very interesting thread yesterday - great research I must say!
I have a couple of inputs to the story.
Regarding the Norwegian pilot: RAF had 2 squadrons, 331 and 332 (see WIKI for further) manned only with Norwegian pilots - except for the COs. These 2 squadrons were equipped with Spitfires and were most of the time in WW2 stationed in northern Scotland, so the unlucky Spitfire with a Norwegian pilot mentioned in the reports could be an aircraft from one of these squadrons.
But what this has to do with mr. Raasch - well?

Are you sure that the spelling of the name is correct - could it not be mr. Harry A. Raasch or something else? The exact spelling is vital of course. I suppose that "your" mr. Raasch was drafted when he was 18 years old in 1942, sent to Italy and he became a POW in the summer of 1944. So he did not have any time for establishing relations to other countries (incl. Scotland), I suppose.
In any case he did not fly the Spitfire in the RAF.

But are you sure that there is not another mr. Raasch (or whatever the spelling is) who really flew the Spitfire?

Milo,
As far as I know all Norwegian pilots were trained in Canada - and he couldn't have joined up earlier in Canada - no time!

As already mentioned in an earlier post, his actions after the crash landing were weird - I was a fighter pilot in the 60'ties and we were taught to phone Base Operation ASAP after a bailout or crash landing before doing anything else in order to arrange further actions - the beer could wait to later!

Looking forward to more posts - good luck!

brgds

grebllaw

Denmark

P.S.: Here is a link to a list - although not official - covering all personel from Norway who went through the initial training in Canada. Raasch not the list.
http://www.profero.no/littlenorway/Personell_Little_Norway_1940-1945.pdf

[El Grifo]

100% certain of the name It came directly from a written record at the B+B establishment.

Bear in mind the eyewitness to the crash at the specific location refers to a Hurricaine not a Spitfire, Raasch told me he was flying a Spitfire, other than that the circumstances are very similar.

Im in no way sure of anything really except that in the original posting describing the visit to my shop in Selkirk.

As I say, the whole story smelled a bit from day one. it has just become more mysterious with time !

Thanks for your input, any research would be gratefully received.

You say Raasch the canadian could not possibly met a Norwegian trainee pilot during the training period. Help me with that, my head is spinning with dates !

[Airborne Aircrew]

study the genealogical histories that are available online for the Raasch family in USA and Canada. However that costs money!

I have an unlimited account on Ancestry.com so if you can give me a starting place I can dig around in there.

[El Grifo]

This is the closest we have come so far. Different site but the family linkage is there. I am unable to subscribe as it is US only.

Maybe you can feed some data into Ancestry.com

Craig Raasch Address, Phone, Email & Records | PeopleFinders (http://www.peoplefinders.com/d/Craig+Raasch/1-209707887)

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

My head is spinning too!

To comment your answer:

- You are 100% certain regarding the name, but as I suppose that it was written by hand - mistakes could have been made be the B+B. Incorrect info could also have been given?

- The untrained eye cannot se any difference between a Hurricane and a Spitfire - and the Norwegians flew Spifires!

- I also think that the story smells a bit - f.ex. how could he fly all the way from Biggin Hill along the coastline without seeing any landmark which could lead him to one of the many, many wartime airfields - what was his mission anyway?

- You talk about "Raasch the Canadian" - if the man who came to your shop in fact was Canadian, then "your" mr. Harold A. Raasch" is NOT the correct mr. Raasch, as he was born in the USA! However if mr. Raasch was Canadian he might have met a Norwegian cadet - if he was an American he would have had to go to Toronto, where the Norwegians trained - but unlikely! COMPLICATED! YES

The search goes on!

Brgds

P.S.: Milo wrote: "It seems likely that he was returning in some act of commoration, but of who?". If so, the whole story does not have anything to do with the Norwegian pilot - commoration of a broken nose..........! If the Norwegian pilot had died later, a trip to a Norwegian graveyard would have been the appropriate action.

[El Grifo]

Yep grebllaw, you have indeed entered at the deep end.

So many questions and so few answers.

The main questions are, who was the guy who came to see me all these years ago with his lucid and concise tale of the crash landing of his Spitfire at Headshaw bog and the circumstances of his journey to RAF Turnhouse to report.

Who was he where did he come from where was he going and why did he end up out of fuel in the Scottish Borders.

Have a dig anywhere you like. A new mind on the case often helps !

Cheers
El G.

Bear in mind, he told me he was Canadian, The B+B lady believed him to be American. He stayed there many times, I think we can be sure of the correct name .

[Milo Minderbinder]

grebllaw is correct when he says the Norwegian squadrons flew Spitfires not Hurricanes, but that didn't stop them crashing or losing a small number of Hurricanes.

See http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/lists/raf1d.htm for details - but none match this crash

[grebllaw123d]

Milo,
You are absolutely right!
I was only referring to the ALL Norwegian squadrons, 331 and 332, of which 331 actually in the first 4 months of its existence was equipped with Hurricanes. (acc. WIKI). Quite a number of Nordic pilots (incl. Norwegians) served in the other RAF squadrons.
But still, as I mentioned earlier in connection with the story about the forced landing made by a Norwegian pilot, the Hurricane vs Spitfire discussion is not all that important due to the similarity between the 2 types IMO.

[Milo Minderbinder]

And the fact is the list on that site doesn't have a matching incident for Hurricane or Spitfire. So either it didn't happen (in the sense that the pilot wasn't Norwegian) or the incident was so trivial that no record was made.
But surely the fact that the aircraft had to be dissembled and trucked away means it wasn't trivial?
The crash happened. But theres no record of a Norwegian piloting it.

[grebllaw123d]

I am convinced due the witness accounts that the forced landing/emergency landing happened - I would not call it a crash - a crash with the pilot still in his seat will (normaly) cause more that an easily fixed broken nose! And I also believe that the pilot was Norwegian - why should the police not tell the truth?

This incident could easily have been very trivial, and therefore not recorded.
In one of the posts it was mentioned that the wheels went down in a ditch and the aircraft therefore overturned. If this happened at low speed the damage may have been very limited not making a report necessary - after all there was a war going on with a large number of incidents/accidents.

I think that the ground crew just removed the wings in order to get enough space on the truck and on the roads- bearing in mind that the wingspan of a Spitfire is around 36 ft.

If the above is correct, i.e. a Norwegian force landed the aircraft - then how about mr. Raasch's story?:\

[Milo Minderbinder]

Which brings us back full circle to the suggestion that we have the wrong Raasch

Airborne Aircrew earlier offered to search Ancestry.com
What would be useful would be a search on there for any Canadian-born men called Harold or Harry Raasch or Rasch, born in time for WW2, and who died in the 1990's. May be too recent to show up, but maybe not

Are there any Canadian census or electoral roll records open for viewing dating from the 1930's/40's/50's?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Milo:

Ancestry's information will be limited in some areas and may be quite expansive in others... Census records are restricted so they may not be helpful but there are a lot of other records that might give clues - the problem here would be linking military etc. records to a "real human being"...

I'm quite willing to have a dig around I just need to know what information you want to start with.... I've become a bit of a sleuth on Ancestry so it might work... On the other hand, I have several "mysteries" in my family history that are mind numbing...

No, I am not talking about the identity of my father... :}

[Milo Minderbinder]

I believe from memory you can do a general search to see if a specific name turns up in anyones family tree. Is it possible to see if a 20th century Harold/Harry Raasch/Rasch is on any Canadian family trees?
If we can establish that then we may have a start point

If you can do a census seach of the whole Canadian database that may turn something up as well. I'm guessing there won't be many - if any

At this stage the best we can try to do is establish the existance or otherwise of a Harold A Raasch in Canada. If theres no-one of that name in the census records, and no-one in a family tree search then that would be a reasonably conclusive negative. If the RCAF records also recorded a blank, then we know that "our" Raasch is lying.
If a third Raasch does turn up in those searches, then there is more work to do in identification

Of course we have to hope that the family name stayed constant. In Germany it appears to have been variable: Rasche/Rasch/Raschig/Raschen have all been recorded as variants

[El Grifo]

I am naturally very happy that you guys are pushing on with the search.

Hopefully it will turn-up something meaningful.

My minor worry is, why would a Rev. by the name of Raasch, in the last known location of the man in question, acknowledge the fact that his father had visited me in Selkirk all these years ago, if in fact this man was not his father.

It seems to me that we have the right family, ay least one member of that family, and he ain't talkin !!!!

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

So Tim Raasch acknowledged that the man who visited you in Selkirk was his father - did he also acknowledge that his father is identical to Lt. Col. Harold A Raasch USAF?
And did he know about his father's visits to Scotland?

In post #135 you say that mr. Raasch's daughter was well aware of her father's visits to Selkirk and the reason for these visits. How do you know that?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Milo:

Busy weekend.. I'll have a dig around on Monday when I have some time... :cool:

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

Here are a couple of puzzling questions:

If the guy who came to you in your shop was an American having served in the USAAF during WW2 and NOT in the RAF, then his "Spitfire story" is nonsense - right?

Consequently he would be unable to find the field used for his alleged forced landing during WW2 - logical conclusion!

So, I wonder which objects in the Scottish countryside he would have asked you to photograph for him - have you thought about this?

[diginagain]

If the guy who came to you in your shop was an American having served in the USAAF during WW2 and NOT in the RAF, then his "Spitfire story" is nonsense - right?

Why? The USAAF operated a number of Spitfires.

[El Grifo]

Whilst I realise you are trying to help, I am not sure that you have read the full content of the thread.

He told me he was Canadian.

He made no reference to The USAAF

He spent several (more than six) years searching for the site.

I assumed he wanted me to photograph the site.

What more can I say. Go over the entire thread. It may help.

Cheers
El G.

In post #135 you say that mr. Raasch's daughter was well aware of her father's visits to Selkirk and the reason for these visits. How do you know that?


Possibly because she sent a letter to the owner of the B+B to advise of his death. Please do keep up !!

[Milo Minderbinder]

And if you take those statements a face value, he cannot be Lt Col Harold A Raasch, the father of Tim Raasch - in which case the son's reticence in discussing this can be understood.

You can't really progress this until you can prove or disprove the existence of a Canadian with that name.

[El Grifo]

Milo, this is as confusing for me as it is for everyone else.

I can only present the story as it was presented to me.

I have no answers, only questions.

The son appeared to accept that I was on the track of his father, re his many visits to Scotland, then he clammed-up.

Run with the ball, see what you can come up with, please !!

El G.

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo mentions in #205 the following:
"It seems to me that we have the right family, at least one member of that family, and he ain't talkin !!!!"

It certainly seems to me too, at least with the information we got at this time, but if we go along this line, we have to accept that the father in the mentioned family was American and served in USAAF in Italy as a Bombardier, and for obvious reasons he could not have force landed a Spitfire in Scotland, i.e. his story does not make sense to me. And there would be no site to photograph.

BUT if we accept the story told by the guy entering El Grifo's shop, we must IMO find another mr. Raasch whose wartime records can fit the details in the story he told.

Agree with Milo to investigate the Canadian trail.

So, still more questions than answers!

[skydiver69]

I keep watching this thread and googled Lt Col Harold A Raasch and found this Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/376hbgva/message/5776?var=1)

Tim Raasch was looking for info about his dad and states that he died in 2000 so IIRC that doesn't match the gentleman you spoke to. However it also confirms that Tim's dad was in the 376st and was shot down in Romania in 1944.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Yep, thats the bit of info that links the Rev Tim to his father, and we've also found evidence (though slim) of a PFC Harold A Raasch who as a groundcrew out in the far east......but...neither mans details fit the story

The USA social security death records indicate another Harold Raasch who died in Nebraska in 1992 (and whose social security number was issued in Nebraska). That may be the PFC, or a third man, but again it doesn't match the story
The problem is that there is no death record in the USA of anyone else of that name during the correct period. However would a Canadian dying in the USA have such a record?

Hopefully AA will be able to find something on the genealogy website with respect to any possible Canadians

[El Grifo]

Although it may not appear at time so be so, I am very grateful that you guys are taking the weight from my shoulders.

A weight that is as weights do, weighing me down !

[grebllaw123d]

Just found i little more info about Private Harold A Raasch - the guy serving in the far east:
http://files.usgwarchives.org/wi/milwaukee/military/ww2/enlistment/armyenli134gmt.txt

[Milo Minderbinder]

Now its getting even more surreal.
Both born 1924 in Wisconsin. Could it be the same guy? Could a PFC in the Pacific be commissioned as a bombardier Lt in Europe and then rise post war to Lt Col?
Two different serial numbers 16089455 and O-715095
Do USA serial numbers change on commission?

And most importantly - no death record. So if there are two, he either died overseas, or is still alive. So again, he's not our man - based on the story
And if he really did follow that route from PFC to Lt, then there really is no time for UK service

[grebllaw123d]

Milo,

I am sure that there were 2 Harold A. Raasch's in the USAAF.

Look at the following link, which by the way has been presented earlier in this thread:

The 6th Bomb Group: Ground Crew Listing - 40 BS (http://philcrowther.com/6thBG/6bgcrewlist40G.html)

General Order No. 10, issued 20 Feb 1946 indicates that H.A.R is PRIVATE.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Yep, you're right - I'd forgotten the date of that award notice. So its just coincidence - but no apparent record of death, but the guy who told the story is - according to his supposed daughter - dead
And the only death record we have within the correct time frame is the Lt Col....

[Airborne Aircrew]

I started by going through the thread and picking up all the clues I could to use as search ammunition...

Amazingly, I don't believe Harold Raasch(e)/Rasche/Rasch/Rausch(e)/Raße existed...:*

I can't find a single Harold or Harold A. Rxxx born in Canada period. I've tried Ancestry, FamilySearch.org and World Vital Records. Nothing. Furthermore, I can't find a Harold or Harold A. Rxxx that died in 1990, 1989 or 1988... The closest I get is a man in California but that year of death was 2004.

I've searched military records and can't come close to a match - certainly no RCAF or USAF flyers or ground crew and no RAF Officers.

I've searched immigration records from Canada to the USA... Nothing...

The current most recently available census year is 1940 in the USA but it is incompletely indexed so 1930 is the most recent complete index... There are a lot of Harold Raasch's in Wisconsin born between 1900 and 1915 and, if I were to guess, our Harold came from Wisconsin purely statistically.

While I have had problems finding quite specific information like a particular census record for a year for a person, (eg. the 1891 census record for someone I have the 1871, 1881, 1901 records for), I have rarely turned up a complete blank on someone which is puzzling. You can usually find a birth or death record that is feasible quite easily.

Is it possible our man was using a fake name?

[El Grifo]

Bear in mind, he told me he was "from Canada" but the landlady thought he was American. The landlady connected him with an address in Sunnyvale California.

I do not believe he was using a false name as the communication from his daughter used the same name on the advice of his death.

I could contact the landlady and press her on a more accurate death notification date as she currently thinks around 2000 !

[grebllaw123d]

Airborne Aircrew,

What an amazing job you have done!

But you don't have to guess where "our Harold" came from - according his obituary he was "A native of Milwaukee".

[mabmac]

Hi Folks, I've been following this thread with interest. Just a thought - could the pilot have been a Pole, Czech or suchlike (hence flying an RAF Spitfire) who subsequently settled in Canada or the USA after the war? That would explain the lack of BMD and census records from across the pond.

[grebllaw123d]

There were a couple of posts last night regarding the "other" Harold A Raasch in the USAAF during WW2, i.e. PFC H.A. Raasch serving in 6. Bomb Group in the Far East.

Milo found out that there was no death certificate for this person - only for Lt. Col. H.A. Rasch. Therefore he correctly concluded that he either had died overseas or still was alive.

I once more searched the internet and found a gentleman with the exact name Harold Arthur Raasch living in Waynesboro VA - and being 88 years old.

This person must be the "other" Raasch. He was ruled out anyway as a possibility, so this just for the record.

[Milo Minderbinder]

mabmac
Problem with that idea is that Raasch is very much an east German name - not Pole or Czech. He would have had to have been something like a Sudeten German who was anti-Nazi......even assuming such a person could escape the Nazis, would he have been allowed anywhere near a Spitfire?

The idea isn't impossible, just sounds unlikely

[Milo Minderbinder]

So what Airborne Aircrew has successfully proved is that the underlying premise of the whole story is wrong: there was no Canadian Harold A Raasch

So what options do we have?
1) the visitor was one of the two H A Raasches we've found but he lied about his reasons, history and over flying the aircraft
2) El Grifo misunderstood what he was told, or memory has dimmed with time
3) the visitor was an unknown person who assumed the identity of H A Raasch

None are palatable answers, but I can't see any other realistic options

[El Grifo]

2) El Grifo misunderstood what he was told, or memory has dimmed with time


Count out that option Milo, The memory is as fresh as the day he came to see me. Remember, I am in full contact with the landlady from the B+B. Everything I was told, she was told, he made many visists from the 70's onwards, his family knew of his quest, so much so that his daughter took the time to advise the landlady of his death.

This new idea that he was not necesarily born In Canada or the US but maybe settled there after the war may hold some credence, No ?

[Milo Minderbinder]

I thought about this some time ago but disregarded it
Him being a foreigner only works if he was a German national who crashed a German aircraft there. However I don't believe theres a record of that happening. However by a strange quirk, the local Observer Corps post is recorded on the internet as being the first to pick up Rudolph Hess's aircraft when he flew in.
I suppose theres a chance that a German of that name may have crashed elsewhere and got the location wrong....
Is there a central listing of crashed German aircrew or POWs in the UK? We know a Raasch died off Shetland, were there any more?

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

I also count out 2).

Airborne Aircrew writes:
"I've searched military records and can't come close to a match - certainly no RCAF or USAF flyers or ground crew and no RAF Officers", which IMHO means that the guy did not tell you the truth regarding his forced landing etc. during WW2, as he never flew a Spitfire.

He must have had other and very good reasons for repeatly travelling from overseas to visit a small Scottish town.

Who was he? What was his real quest?

Could be a combination of 1) and 3).

[Airborne Aircrew]

Bear in mind, he told me he was "from Canada" but the landlady thought he was American.

I'm sorry, I was a bit unclear... I've searched both US and Canadian...

grebllaw123d:

according his obituary he was "A native of Milwaukee".

I'm not sure that we're sure the obit is our man are we? Why would he tell El Grifo he's Canukistani if he was from Milwaukee... My wife is from Milwaukee and I can assure you they are all very proud of that...

I can see one place things might start to fit. If the landlady is way off on the year of death. Then you have the Milwaukee born Harold Raasch dying in the appropriate area of California in 2004... IIRC, (I forgot my notes at work), he was born in 1913 making him around 40 when the war was going on and in his seventies when El Grifo met him.

[El Grifo]

The area was definitley on the overfly route for bombing the Clyde area.

Records and emails to me tell of returning german aircraft, jettisoning unused bombs.

Would be interested in a pointer tolocal ROC records

[Milo Minderbinder]

Airborne
then thats a different Harold Raasch, not the Lt Col. His birth/death years were 1924 / 2000, and also not the PFC who was born 1924 and has no death record
Maybe he's the third man?

[El Grifo]

I will get back to the landlady Tuesday to see if I can get a better timing regarding the notification.

Shooting out on a limb here, remember he came in to get a price for the photshoot, maybe by saying he was "from Canada" he thought he would get a better price than if he said he was an American (rich Yank image and all that)

Only sayin !

[Airborne Aircrew]

I'll get my notes tomorrow and lay out the details of every Harold Raasch that seems reasonable...

I will say that, upon reflection, I think te Canadian angle is a deception. With no evidence of a Canadian H Raasch and the fact that, he'd he been visiting the UK a lot it's probably quite probable that at some time he'd been told that the Brits aren't too keen on Yanks so saying you're a Canadian is much better. I can say that with a little authority since I did see the mild discrimination my American wife had inflicted upon her in 1987...

[El Grifo]

Reinforced by the fact that the Landlady always thought he was American !

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

Some time ago you were in contact with the Rev. Tim Raasch, who however broke all contacts with you.

I wonder, if the Rev. gave you information, which supports the theory that his father was the man, who came to your shop in Selkirk?

[El Grifo]

I was in contact with him a recently as JUne 26th when he told me to rerfrain from any further research into his father on threat of legal action.

His first communication of several months ago was of an entirely different flavour. I told him exactly the same story as I have told here. If this story had not tied up which somthing of which he was aware, surely he would had said so at the time. Instead, this was his reply :-

Thanks for your email. And your unexpected story. I'd like to talk further but not right now as Lent has begun and it's quite busy here.
Your conversations with my Dad apparently struck a deep chord and I am moved by your taking time to research and try to contact his family. I am struck first by your response to those conversations and years later picking up the thread.I'm not sure how to respond right now as your story and memories are about my father. If you can understand, I ask you, for the time being, to put on hold any further research about him, at least until we talk further

[Airborne Aircrew]

Funny, the Rev. appears reticent to discuss even then... He's politely evaded the issue while hoping you'd drop your research by the time he's ready to talk...

I'm starting to get a "not so good" feeling about this altogether...

[Milo Minderbinder]

that statement from the Rev is not enough to confirm who you met - its possibly explainable as him accepting at face value your statement that the two of you met even though he has no personal knowledge of such a meet.
The way he's phrased it is very open to interpretation e.g. when he says "Your conversations with my Dad apparently struck a deep chord " he means in YOU, not in his father. Later on when he talks of his father, he is talking about the information you have just given him - which is new to him, and at odds with the facts as he knows them. Hence the delay tactic - and the later change in apparent attitude.
What we know of his fathers life simply does not fit the history as you were told by the visitor.
One thing that may help if its there - has anyone accessed the obit of the Lt Col in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel? If it has a photo of the man it may clear the mystery over the ID

[grebllaw123d]

I have downloaded Lt. Col. Raasch's obituary from the newspaper, or rather parts of it, as I had to be a subscriber in order to get it all. There is no picture on the part I have.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I searched for pictures too because of the description El Grifo gave of the man... I couldn't find any either... While that's far from conclusive it was a sensible avenue of research...

[grebllaw123d]

El Grifo,

One small question:

How did you get the Rev.'s email address?

[mini]

Mention of a 2nd Lt Raasch here:

R (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hfhm/Roster/r_names.htm)

The contact email for the source is also listed.

[El Grifo]

How did you get the Rev.'s email address?

A fellow pruner with ecclesiasticle connections, did a serious bit of sleuthing earlier last year and came up with it.

The contact email for the source is also listed.

I actually found that once and contacted the email address. I got a reply saying that the person would do some checking, but I cannot find any other communication. I will try him again.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Mini

thats the same guy - the Lt Col, just earlier in his career

[El Grifo]

Yep ! banged off am email nevertheless with an update of how the search nis going !!

Explore all avenues one if not thrice :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ok... Here's the results of my sleuthing... It may seem a bit disjointed but it's how I wrote the notes as I found information with subsequent interjections as things became clearer.

Three Harolds come close to fitting the bill with the first one showing many data points we have previously seen. My bet will be on him if any... On a side note - One wonders if the daughter may have lied about her fathers death to the landlady just to bring closure there... Just a thought.

Death Records of our three Harolds:

Name: Harold A. Raasch
SSN: 398-14-7517
Last Residence: 95472 Sebastopol, Sonoma, California, United States of America
Born: 21 Feb 1924
Died: 20 Feb 2000
State (Year) SSN issued: Wisconsin (Before 1951)

Name: Harold R. Raasch
Last Residence: 90027 Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California, United States of America
Born: 22 Aug 1919
Died: 4 Feb 2004
State (Year) SSN issued: Wisconsin (Before 1951)

Name: Harold Arnold Raasch
Birth Date: 20 Nov 1906
Age at Death: 94
Death Date: 27 Aug 2001
Burial Place: Klamath Falls, Klamath County, Oregon, USA

There appear to be no further death records of a Harold Raasch anywhere until 1987 when our man was, supposedly, still alive.

As I said, my gut goes with our 1924 Harold...

Harold Raasch (1924) 1930 Census Record:-

Name: Harold Raasch
Gender: Male
Birth Year: abt 1924
Birthplace: Wisconsin
Race: White
Home in 1930: Milwaukee, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Marital Status: Single
Relation to Head of House: Son
Father's Name: Alfred Raasch
Father's Birthplace: Wisconsin
Mother's name: Anna Raasch
Mother's Birthplace: Wisconsin
Occupation:

Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Raasch 39
Anna Raasch 41
Alfred Raasch 7
Harold Raasch 6
Marcella Raasch 3

Family Trees:

This Harold is found in the Raasch family tree on Ancestry. He married a Janice Marie Kennedy born 17 June 1923 in New Philadelphia, Ohio and died 5 July 1983 in Sunnyvale, California. In this tree there is only one child, (a boy), who's details are private.

He also appears in the Leggett/Liggett Family tree and marries Janice there too... In this tree there are 3 children, (1 girl and two boys), with private details too. This tree confirms the enlistment record, 1930 Census record and the death record I had already found. This record of Harold was added to the Ancestry tree by a certain tdraasch... Dear, dear Timothy...

He also appears in a Graf Family tree which confirms his parents as Alfred Raasch and Anna (Reitz) Raasch.

Timothy Raasch also has a family tree of his own that references Harold Raasch born in 1924 - the tree is in the name tdraasch confirming the link in the Leggett/Liggett tree above.

Army Enlistment Record:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Birth Year: 1924
Race: White, citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: Wisconsin
State of Residence: Wisconsin
County or City: Milwaukee

Enlistment Date: 5 Jan 1943
Enlistment State: South Carolina
Enlistment City: Shaw Field Sumter
Branch: Air Corps
Branch Code: Air Corps
Grade: Private
Grade Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law Component: Reserves - exclusive of Regular Army Reserve and Officers of the Officers Reserve Corps on active duty under the Thomason Act (Officers and Enlisted Men -- O.R.C. and E.R.C., and Nurses-Reserve Status)
Source: Enlisted Reserve or Medical Administrative Corps (MAC) Officer

Education: 4 years of high school
Civil Occupation: Occupations in manufacture of automobiles, n.e.c.
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 00
Weight: 100

This enlistment record is confirmed here and gives his service number as 16089455:-

http://files.usgwarchives.net/wi/milwaukee/military/ww2/enlistment/armyenli134gmt.txt

The thought that this Harold A Raasch is the same one that was in the Bulgarian Prison Camp is therefore "shot down", (pun intended), by the fact that the chap in the camp had a serial number O-715095 as witnessed here:-

WorldWar2.ro Forum -> Shumen POW camp (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5455)

Post War Information:-

In 1954 Harold was at Robins AFB Georgia with his wife where he worked as a Historical Service(s) Director:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1954
Street Address: 2717 Cherokee av
Residence Place: Macon, Georgia
Occupation: Historical Serv Dir
Spouse: Janice M Raasch
Publication Title: Macon, Georgia, City Directory, 1954

In 1956 Harold and Janice were in Decatur GA where he was an Assistant Professor at the University of Georgia:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1956
Street Address: Decatur GA
Residence Place: Atlanta, Georgia
Occupation: Asst Prof
Spouse: Janice M Raasch
Publication Title: Atlanta, Georgia, City Directory, 1956

In 1961 it's quite probable that this record is them having moved to Manchester, New Hampshire where he worked as a scheduler at the US Tracking Station, New Boston, (see New Boston Air Force Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Boston_Air_Force_Station))

Name: Harold A Raasch
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1961
Residence Place: Manchester, New Hampshire
Occupation: Scheduler
Spouse: Janice Raasch
Publication Title: Manchester, New Hampshire, City Directory, 1961

This is most probably a list of his later addresses:-

Name: Harold A Raasch
Address: 633 King St Apt 12, Santa Rosa, CA, 95404-3852
[2980 Bay Village Cir # B, Santa Rosa, CA, 95403-3613]
[1945 Piner Trlr Rd 3, Santa Rosa, CA, 95403]
[1945 Piner Trlr Rd 38, Santa Rosa, CA, 95403]
[7051 Fellers Ln, Sebastopol, CA, 95472-4479 (1994)]

So, to summarize. Harold Arthur Raasch was born on the 21st February 1924 in Milwaukee Wisconsin. Prior to his enlistment at 19 years of age he worked for an automobile manufacturer. He joined the Army Air Force at Shaw Field, Sumpter, South Carolina as a private on the 5th Jan 1943. At the time of enlistment he was unmarried. Some time later he married a Janice Marie Kennedy and had three children. He spent some time on the East Coast doing various jobs including being an assistant professor at the University of Georgia. Some time after 1961 the family moved to California. He is almost certainly the father of a Timothy D Raasch who was born in 1955 which fits with his already being married in 1954 in Macon, Georgia. Harold died on my birthday, 20th February 2000 just the day before his 76th birthday.

I find it difficult to believe that our, (most probably), factory working Harold joined as a private in 1943 and became a Spitfire pilot flying out of Biggin Hill by the end of the war. T'is little wonder the Reverend Timothy D. Raasch has become so uncooperative...

[grebllaw123d]

After comparing the new info with already known stuff, I must say that fantastic coincidences exist!

Let us call H.A.R as Airborne Aircrew is describing in his last post for NEW H.A.R.

- According Lt.Col. H.A.R.'s obituary he died on Feb 20 2000 - same day as NEW H.A.R.

- Lt. Col. H.A.R. has a son with the name of Tim - same goes for NEW H.A.R.

- Lt. Col. H.A.R. has a brother Alfred - same goes for NEW H.A.R.

- Lt. Col. H.A.R. got married to a Janice Kennedy - same goes for NEW H.A.R.

- NEW H.A.R.'s mother is called Anna - same goes for LT.Col. H.A.R.'s mother - noted on a crew list as next of kin.

Something is wrong!:ugh:

So the question as to who entered El Grifo's shop is still open!!

[El Grifo]

Anyone able to throw any light on this new development.

Any theories of whatever nature are welcomed.

This plot has thickened amost from day one !