Hawker 900 pilot

[clivewatson]

Anyone current, rated and available on Jan 23rd in London for one flight to help out of duty hour problem? Any licence, must be current, nice legs a bonus.

PS only kidding about the legs!

[AirBizz]

I might be available pm me for your requirements

[Kelly Hopper]

Am avail. PM me?

[4144r]

I am available (living 2h from London) [email protected]

[clivewatson]

Thanks for those who bothered to PM me, rather than the other way around. Especially thanks to AirBizz who indicated that he might be available, and suggested that I PM him! Chucking feek!

[frontlefthamster]

If you have a 'duty hour problem' you can't be operating privately...

If you're not operating privately, your pilot needs more than a licence and rating...

Tartare sauce, anyone?

[OutsideCAS]

It seems a bit harsh to complain about posters not PM'ing you instead of public posting as you did ask for help Clive - while any kind of job offering may be thin on the ground, somehow i dont think this justifies an ungrateful attitude to responses, public or not - you want PM's, then just say so.

[clivewatson]

okay, accepted. but his response was that he "might" be available. in the event most of those who were actually available did pm me, and I gave the job to someone who was out of work.

apology given.

frontlefthamster. we are private, but we do operate in line with sensible limits. a duty period of 18 hours did not seem sensible to me. i trust that clarifies the situation for you.

[frontlefthamster]

It does, in the main, though I would like to take the opportunity to express some reservations, which I hope will be received in the way they are transmitted:

I would much prefer a relatively fatigued crewmember whom I knew and who knew the same SOPs, perhaps knew the route and destination, and knew the aircraft and passengers, over an unknown quantity, possibly in a pressured situation (not least, who will be setting out to fit in and impress, in the hope of a job, and thus will tend to accede readily to courses of action which would otherwise be questionable).

I'm assuming you did some due diligence on the individual you chose, licences, ratings, references, etc..?

May I add that in your position I might well have picked Airbizz for the work (and no, I don't know him)...

I took his 'might' to imply that he wanted to know a bit more about what he might be getting into before declaring himself available. He wanted you to start the dialogue, to see how it shaped up. I am very suspicious indeed of pilots who throw their hats into the ring for jobs with no prior knowledge. Airbizz's reply had the hallmark of a cautious and professional airman, in my humble opinion.

This sort of thread has potential to perpetuate the 'hang your spurs up in the briefing room' image of some biz-jet operations, again, in my humble opinion... With feet in both camps, I can say that the biz-jet world's reputation has come on leaps and bounds in the last decade...

[clivewatson]

Thanks for your insight.

[chubbychopper]

Frontlefthamster:

Yes and no. Eighteen hours seems quite excessive to me. That's quite a while to be on duty for, even if private flights are not regulated. If anything did happen on the last leg I am sure a lot of pertinent questions would be asked. Also, where would you draw the line..20, 22 or 24 hours?

That said, your argument does balance the equation, but would a court of law understand or accept the realities and logic of it. That's debatable.

Regarding the other matter, yes clivewatson was a bit harsh and also quite rude, but to balance that argument also the applicant did appear to have an air of arrogance. Quite how you translate this into being a professional pilot wishing to learn more about the mission requirements before applying I am not able to understand.

All's well that ends well.

[TheiC]

With respect to all, it hasn't ended well... Yet.

I use a brick wall analogy sometimes in analysing how pilots work together: there is always at least a small brick wall, perhaps in the best times one or two layers of bricks high, between the crew members. One team of invisible ducks (the ones who also nibble you to death when the tigers aren't feeding - I hope you've heard the old adage) is trying to lay more layers; another team has a wrecking ball and is trying to take layers off.

Accidents often involve BIG brick walls with very active brick-laying ducks; sometimes the wrecking-ball ducks have given up.

Of course, we, as pilots, can exercise a lot of control over our imaginary feathered friends, and we can also employ strategies to monitor their behaviour and the height of the wall. This same analogy holds true in operating theatres, power station control rooms, on ship's bridges, at home, or in a pub: in fact, anywhere that people find themselves together.

Now, what frontlefthamster may have been getting at is that a fatigued crew does not necessarily operate with a big brick wall. The crew members may individually be below par (or one of them may in this instance), but their synergy may be good, and they may be an effective crew. In times of high arousal or crisis, they may be very effective indeed.

However, two crew members who have never flown together and embark on a flight without any sim training etc, or shared understanding of the SOPs, as is proposed above, start with a very big wall indeed, and a team of juvenile wrecking-ball ducks.

That's a very fertile ground for things to go wrong.

Incidentally, while brief (in the modern idiom), nothing struck me as arrogant in Airbizz's post. Try smiling deliberately while reading it again, and see what you think.

ps If you don't like my ducks, don't worry; I don't think they're any worse than Swiss Cheese!

[AirBizz]

Dear Clive,

You asked for help, so you should be the one telling what you want.

What was your intention with this post? to get help!! Or see who is going to beg for a day of flying.

Should I have send my CV on a public forum? Should I have bombarded you with PM's for a day of flying?
I don't know you....I don't know the company you work for..... I did not think this was a job add on a recruitment website.
I just thought this was a pilot (me) who wanted to give a possible helping hand to an other pilot.
It's a strange way of showing your appreciation my friend, if you ask for help and someone is telling you that they might be able to help you.

Anyway good luck with your operation.

Chubbychopper
Is a person who might be willing to help called arrogant these days??.:ugh:

How did you read an air of arrogency in that sentence is already riddle to me.
Are you looking for someone to whom you will say: Jump!!
He will say: Yes Sir!! How high Sir!!
No questions asked.
I just wanted to know his requirements based on that I can maybe help him or maybe not.


Airbizz

[AirBizz]

By the way: Appologies accepted :ok:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I am not Hawker these days.

I would also have responded with MIGHT be available, as previously stated there are many aspects to be considered before I jump to a freelance 1 day gig on a Glf.

Duration: 1 day has run in to 3 days, thus conflicting with other work.
The statement: Any licence was a red rag.
Money never mentioned.
Etc etc.


But any Glf freelance gigs would be considered. !!!!!!!!!

glf

[frontlefthamster]

Aeroncaman,

May I use your own word?

Would you like to f**k off then? I think we're happy with our conversation here, we're chatting and we haven't fallen out too badly. Grown-ups talking about grown-up stuff in a grown-up way.

You've brought nothing to the party, and are welcome to leave.

PS you should have written day's

PPS Mods, if you wish to remove his post, please take this one with it.

[clivewatson]

It did end well! Thanks to Victor, who we would be happy to have help us out next time. To those others who responded, thank you also, and to those I owe an apology, sorry once again!


Tired crew versus unknown crew is a worthy debate. I learnt a few new tricks from the experience, so I'm more than happy.

[TheiC]

Clive,

I'm pleased to hear it, and hope you had a good day out. I'm glad your passengers and/or airframe ended up where they wanted to be... :ok:

Would you be willing to give us some insight into the experience, perhaps? What went well or not-so-well, what you might you do differently another time, where you felt the stresses might have been, etc? How did the absence of shared SOPs impact the operation - or if, for example, you had both trained to generic SOPs with FSI, perhaps, how did they go?

Perhaps Victor might do likewise, whilst not doing anything to reduce his prospects? :)

Maybe those looking for a more tabloid, or rapidly-digestible, entertainment, might leave us to our debate?

[clivewatson]

Yes, I will as soon as I get a few minutes to scribe salient observations. Alas though, as i made reference to his Christian name, my valiant helper may not now wish to have his identity revealed by owning up to joining me on the trip. At least I was not dumb enough to publish his monicker and his real name!

[RFGN]

Hello everyone,

I am Victor, I would like to thank you again Clive, for haven chosen me for the assignment, which was really interesting.

Our both experiences with almost 18000 hrs recorded in the flight deck, and my airline experience and some SOPs inspired by a "big share business company" based in Europe was helpful.

I wish to all the guys grounded to find a suitable position...

Victor.