Odd problem obtaining licence - Advice?

[TheInquisitor]

Having recently left the military with no civilian licences (not even a PPL!) I find myself in something of an odd situation. My background was heavies, with over 1500hrs on them and over 1800hrs TT.

I do not qualify for any of the QSP schemes because of this. But, it also seems I do not qualify for even a straight CPL, since I only have 58hrs PIC! it seems the only way I can qualify myself would be to obtain a PPL and hours build, followed by MEP rating, CPL skills test and IR... And paying for it all myself, it works out eye-wateringly expensive; I have calculated a worst-case scenario cost iro £23k! And even that would only yield me a fATPL. (I plan to take the full raft of ATPL theory in any case).

But here's the odd thing... I have read, re-read, and re-re-read LASORS until going cross-eyed, and even dived into JAR-FCL 1... And it would appear that I meet ALL the flying experience requirements for an ATPL! All I would need is a type rating on a MPA... For which I would need to build another 12hrs PIC (easily done) to make up the 70hrs requirement, and I already have a valid IR (green procedural valid in the last 5 years).

Have I misread something here? Am I missing a vital piece of info? Surely this can't be correct, or can it?

Has anybody ever heard of someone combining a MPA TR course with an ATPL skills test for INITIAL licence issue? I can find nothing in LASORS or JAR-FCL 1 that (in my circumstances) would preclude it.

I'm considering trying this route because a layout of £23k just to get a fATPL with ME/IR seems excessive... With that money, and already meeting the experience requirements, I could come out the other end with a full ATPL and a useful TR.

Any advice or comments?

[Luddite aviator]

I can't help thinking that this must be a misunderstanding of the rules but the best advice I could give would be to contact the nearest RAF flying club.

They will no doubt know the military to civil crossover rules inside out, as ex-military you are entitled to join the club and in the worst case one of these non-Proffit clubs will enable you to hours build at a reasonable cost.

[TheInquisitor]

Quite possibly, Smash, but since my main aim was to find out if anyone had ever heard of somebody 'opening' their first professional licence with a MPA TR, I thought I'd give it a shot here first.

[4Screwaircrew]

It's along time ago, but I did just that the only type on my CPL was the Herald, I can't see why it shouldn't still be possible.

[BEagle]

TheInquisitor, when was your last day of service? Your QSP credits can be claimed for up to one year from your last day of service.

To secure credit from the modular CPL course, in addition to being an ex-QSP, you need to show evidence of having flown not less than 70 hours as pilot-in-command of military aeroplanes or civilian registered aeroplanes other than microlights. As a minimum, therefore, it seems that you need to gain 12 hours PIC sharpish! You can probably do that at a RAFFCA flying club; there is no actual need to obtain a PPL though.

If you left more than 12 months ago, then it seems that you'll need to meet the normal CPL criteria, although your previous flight time will be allowable towards the specific criteria, but it would seem that you would then need to hold a PPL(A).

You are one of the many RAF ME pilots who have found themselves disadvantaged by the woeful lack of PIC time resulting from the current RAF ME training system. Years ago it wasn't unusual to gain around 140 hrs TT at a UAS including 50 PIC, then the Jet Provost course probably gave you another 125 hours TT, including perhaps 35 as PIC. AFTS then followed. But that was all dumbed down when ‘BJFT’ became restricted to prospective FJ pilots with only ‘MELIN’ training being given to prospective ME pilots between their EFT and ME courses.

Your TT should at least fast track you from 'fATPL' to ATPL as you will already have 500 hrs multi-pilot time.

Don't forget that all military accreditation wll change in April 2012, so time is of the essence. It may be simpler for you to accept that, having unfortunately not sorted yourself out whilst still serving, all you can really do at this stage is to gain a PPL(A) and build your PIC experience to 100hrs, then see what emerges? Sorry that this isn’t much help.

[119.35]

I would give Brian at Airways Flight Training, Exeter a call to see what the situation is? They have been doing military conversions for years and he will almost certainly know off the top of his head what the score is.

Great bloke/school and Brian is always willing to help.

Beagle obviously knows his stuff and I fear for you as I know when I was at AFT during the summer, there were a lot of bookings being taken from mil guys looking to beat the April deadline.

Definitely worth a phone call. All the best.

[TheInquisitor]

Thanks BEagle,

Last day of service was quite recent, and yes, I'm aware of the 1 yr rule. I have been caught on the hop and have no-one but myself to blame - skates have already been donned!

It really seems quite bizarre that 100 PIC is required for a CPL, yet there are NO specified PIC requirements for ATPL!

119.35, thanks, shall be calling them and others soon.

[BillieBob]

It really seems quite bizarre that 100 PIC is required for a CPL, yet there are NO specified PIC requirements for ATPL!Yes, there are.

JAR-FCL 1.280(a)(2) - 250 hours either as PIC or at least 100 hours as PIC and 150 hours as co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the pilot in command the duties and functions of a pilot in command provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority. (The JAA doesn't go in for a great deal of punctuation but you get the drift)

[BEagle]

Here are the EASA requirements for the ATPL:

FCL.510.A ATPL(A) - Prerequisites, experience and crediting

(a) Prerequisites. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall hold:
(1) an MPL; or
(2) a CPL(A) and a multi-engine IR for aeroplanes. In this case, the applicant shall also have received instruction in MCC.
(b) Experience. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall have completed a minimum of 1500 hours of flight time in aeroplanes, including at least:
(1) 500 hours in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes;

(2)(i) 500 hours as PIC under supervision; or
(ii) 250 hours as PIC; or
(iii) 250 hours, including at least 70 hours as PIC, and the remaining as PIC under supervision;

(3) 200 hours of cross-country flight time of which at least 100 hours shall be as PIC or as PIC under supervision;

(4) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time; and

(5) 100 hours of night flight as PIC or co-pilot.

Of the 1500 hours of flight time, up to 100 hours of flight time may have been completed in an FFS and FNPT. Of these 100 hours, only a maximum of 25 hours may be completed in an FNPT.

(c) Crediting.

(1) Holders of a pilot licence for other categories of aircraft shall be credited with flight time up to a maximum of:
(i) for TMG or sailplanes, 30 hours flown as PIC;
(ii) for helicopters, 50% of all the flight time requirements of paragraph (b)
(2) Holders of a flight engineer licence issued in accordance with applicable national rules shall be credited with 50% of the flight engineer time up to a maximum credit of 250 hours. These 250 hours may be credited against the 1500 hours requirement of paragraph (a), and the 500 hours requirement of paragraph (b)(1), provided that the total credit given against any of these paragraphs does not exceed 250 hours.
(d) The experience required in (b) shall be completed before the skill test for the ATPL(A) is taken.

[TheInquisitor]

Curious, the discrepancies between LASORS and JAR-FCL 1. LASORS gives it as 500 PIC / PICUS multi-crew, OR 250 PIC... etc. In JAR-FCL 1, the 'OR' doesn't exist and it is formatted in a way that implies 'AND'!

And that first para of the EASA rules - holding a licence as a prerequisite - appears to be new... That doesn't appear in JAR-FCL.

I suppose the moral is, read ALL the appropriate pubs!

I think I miss the world of 'concise and unambiguous' military regs already...

[BillieBob]

No, I think the moral is "Read the source document". LASORS has always been an inadequate attempt to match the FAR/AIM. Unfortunately, it was badly researched, badly written and never properly proof-read. It was riddled with inaccuracies and errors from the day it was produced and this (thankfully the last) version is little better than the first.

[Tinribs]

Be ready for this kind of problem to follow you forever

I got a lifetime PPL in 1967

Left the RAF in 1983 with the Viscount on my shiny new ATPL, flew BMI for 23 years, Viscount F27 Boeing 737, Fkr 70/100 then Eastern J41 for five. My ATP has an SEP rating courtesy of Chipmunk for the RAF and then reserve

Guess what, when mY ATP expires it cannot be renewed because I am over 65 and the old "lifetime" PPL cannot be revived because it was Board of Trade not CAA

So whats the answer? it seems apply for a national PPL but what about the qualifying training, no one seems to know

Your licence problems will not go away while we have a system of regulations which prevents discretion being used by the managers but retains enough obscurity for them to act as they see fit