BSc or BEng and ATPL

[virgil.oix]

Hey guys.
This is my first post on the forum. I actually have a question.
If I already have ATPL frozen, does it help me propel my career forward if I get a bachelor's degree in aviation in the UK?(I'm from Eastern Europe) Which one should I choose for the best chance to hire as a pilot? BSc(Management) or BEng(Engineering).
Please keep in mind that currently airlines don't hire low timers (200h).
Thanks.

[mad_jock]

Neither of them will get you to the front of any q's to be honest.

The purpose of a degree to a pilot is something to fall back on when times are tough or if you loose your medical.

The other thing to think about is how much you are going to have to pay to do these degrees. And what there are actually worth in industry afterwards.

A "pure" degree in a science subject or Engineering is a good thing from a decent Uni.

There have been multiple threads on the pro's and cons of these aviations degrees if you do a search you will find them. I personally think they are a waste of time and money I have been converted in respect to the Engineering degrees with the PPL option.

Flying is a vocational course not an academic if you want to fly do the vocational training course if you want a degree go and do a proper subject with a proffessionally acredited degree in a subject not some cobbled together rubbish acredited by the local faculty and thats it.

[virgil.oix]

Thanks for answering "mad_jock", I defenetly agree with u and appreciate the advice.

I studied the offers out there and decided to apply for a degree while waiting for the industry to bounce back into shape.

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what kind of jobs or volunteer activity can I perform while in school in order to maintain my license active. I would be willing to do pretty much anything to be able to fly.

I read a lot of the threads out there about the subject and everyone's complaining about the lack of jobs and advising to remain current and patient. I came across some suggestions about becoming an F.I. or towing banners.

Can anyone please tell me if there could be something else too out there for a low timer? (200h)

[TheAnimal]

even if u hold masters it wont help ur CV to boost up!!
in this particular field PILOT u need to have PILOT related course which can push ur CV in HR !! besides the hours they need on type !!

so i will strongly recommend you doing

CRM/MCC/JOC/TYPE RATING !!! besides this if u really wanna have a degree in hand than instead of wasting money and time on a degree have a diploma which will give u some less theory and more practical in aviation field !! and it will be a gr8 opportunity to make contacts !!

check out !! Aviation Operations in Emirates of Aviation College !!

Emirates Aviation College - National Diploma in Aviation Operations (http://www.emiratesaviationcollege.com/engineering_ndaviationoperation.aspx)

[mad_jock]

That course is utterly pointless for a european

And the poster will already have done a MCC.

I don't know how you feel about being cabin crew for a couple of seasons ?

That sometimes gets you in the back door.

Don't do instruction unless you want to, its not fair on you or your students.

Apart from which you just have to network, most jobs arn't advertised and you need to be in the right place at the right time.

[virgil.oix]

Thanks again "mad_jock", indeed, I have completed M.C.C. as part of my ATPL integrated course. I covered all the training of a JOC also, though I don't have a JOC certificate from an FTO.

I tend to think university will be a great place to connect with aviation professionals and maybe get a bit closer to the airlines. What do you think?

I would try to fly as cabin crew as well if I will find the time during university and if it will bring me closer to a pilot job, thanks a million for the advice. I think the best solution is in deed to make connections and find a way to fit into the industry and keep my training as fresh as I can.

Also, I would like to make one last call to anyone out there, if you know something about how I can get a flying job with my low time experience in order to at least maintain my license valid, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks.

[mad_jock]

Not really to be honest. The airlines just get on with day to day making money they don't really have that much connection.

The engineering side of things have alot more contact but thats more how bits of carbon fibre break not polling the things about.

There will be hearts and minds research going on but that sort of links into safety deptments not hire em fire them.

Its good that you are thinking about how to promote yourself. But I have a feeling that CV builders are what you require not academic quals.

Paying for a degree in the UK is more than a type rating these days.

HAave you had a look at CTC? Have you tried applying to Ryanair?

[magicmick]

Hi Virgil, Mad Jock is absolutely correct, UK degree course fees are up to £9000 per year for full time courses and technical courses such as engineering usually attract the highest prices. I do not believe that you will be able to hold down an airline job and study for a full time degree at the same time.

Also an engineering degree is a massive challenge, I did a BEng part time (1 day at uni per week) while working as an avionics engineer in the military. The military were very supportive (before sending me to Iraq 8 months of the year) but it was still a massive task and I can imagine it would be even more challenging for someone to attempt it who does not have English as a first language (although your English does seem to be excellent). Level 3 Engineering Maths fried my head when it was taught in my mother language, I cannot imagine how it would be for a foreign student.

As I was completing the degree on a part time basis it took 5 years instead of the 3 years that full timers take but it did involve a 12 hour day once a week at the uni and 15 to 20 hours per week at home.

You would probably be much better off getting a full time job in ops, cabin crew, ramp work etc and making yourself known to the airlines that way.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[virgil.oix]

I have applied for a position with Ryanair several times but they answered "no", telling me that they can't state the reason, which I suspect is that the FTO I trained with, is not OAA or PARC or CTC or whatever they use these days.

I am constantly checking CTC but they have no openings I can apply for.

I also applied at FlyBe, BMI and lots of other operators which said pretty much the same as Ryanair, that they can't consider my application due to the large number of applicants.

I wouldn't write wasting your time. I am considering university in the UK through a loan program that will pay for tuition and ask for money in return only after graduating and getting a job. If I had the money cash, I would definitely pay for a B737/A320 type rating.

I figured that by the time I finish my degree, the industry, strictly regarding pilot positions, will have bounced back and if not, I would have a safer career in the industry that I enjoy.

On the other hand, I would go for a pilot position every time instead of anything else, so if I can find any opportunity at all, I shall take it.

So, given this situation, do you think I would make better connections towards a pilot future working as an F.I. or simply working and studying a university degree or by working as a flight attendant or anything else in the industry that would require full time dedication?

I will not give up on my dreams, but I have to do something. Thanks again for all the help"mad_jock". It's reassuring, talking to someone who can see things in perspective and who can shed some light on some of the aspects unknown to me.

[virgil.oix]

Thanks "magicmick" . I really appreciate well documented advice and think everyone who posts would be lucky to get a reply from you guys.

I can see you have quite a bit of experience joggling with life's problems and I really appreciate the honesty. It would be difficult, I admit. Please check out my previous.

Please check out my last post, the one at "13th Feb 2012 17:26" just after you replied to my thread, and let me know if: "So, given this situation, do you think I would make better connections towards a pilot future working as an F.I. or outside the industry and studying a university degree or by working as a flight attendant or anything else in the industry that would require full time dedication?"

Thank you in advance.

[magicmick]

I am sorry to read about your frustrating experiences so far trying to get a flying job.

It’s true that your degree fees will be loaned to you, but that loan will not go away, it will have to be repaid starting when you get a job (as you correctly stated), whether the repayments will leave you with enough money to live comfortably is another matter.

Being an engineering student will not get you regular contact with the airline hirers and firers, and working as an engineer for an airline will not get you great access to the great and the good of the pilot community. If you can find employment as cabin crew you will be meeting and working with Captains and F/Os daily, networking and getting your face known. Some of those Captains will be senior management pilots (Chief Pilot etc) and links made with them are gold dust.

Even if the operator that you work for is not recruiting pilots, the pilots that you work with may well know other operators that are recruiting pilots and introduce you to the influential staff at that operator.

Honestly working with and being seen in a positive light by senior management pilots (like Mad Jock) will be worth more than any degree and you will actually be earning money while doing it.

Any benefit that an engineering degree will have on your CV will not be worth the effort and expense involved with the degree course.

[mad_jock]

senior management pilots (like Mad Jock)

I ain't that, but I am part of the training setup depending on the job.

[virgil.oix]

It's a world based on connections and it seems reasonable that a company would want to promote from within its ranks, rather than hire new persons that need evaluation, reference checking and training.

Thank you both very much for taking an interest in my questions. I am carefully considering your advice and really appreciate it as it is the best I got so far, it really helped me understand what I'm dealing with here, I guess it's up to me to choose what I think is in my best interest and better suits my needs, and I feel better prepared to make a decision now.

I also approached my country's ministry of transportation together with a group of my ATPL colleagues, trying to find solutions, even suggesting some solutions to them in helping us support the further development of airlines by giving us a chance to work for those airlines(both national and other airlines) that will definitely need to hire pilots in the future, and considering that fewer and fewer people get the financing for an ATPL, basically anticipating the pilot crisis ICAO officials talked about at "the 3rd ICAO NGAP & TRAINAIR PLUS Regional Conference held at Pullman Bucharest – World Trade Center, Bucharest, ROMANIA, from 28 June to 30 June 2011". The response was positive, but we ended up with a bunch of promises so far, no jobs.

Not complaining about politics, just making a point that airlines would better prepare for pilot crisis in times like this when pilots would fly for free.

[Groundloop]

Not complaining about politics, just making a point that airlines would better prepare for pilot crisis

There is no "pilot crisis" for low hour newbies.

[virgil.oix]

Indeed no one wants to hire low timers because the associated costs are greater than with an experienced pilot, but with the expanding of the industry soon there is going to be a crisis and do not forget that pilots retire too...

We're trying to do our best for the industry and it's a lot of self sacrifice, though we don't have it easy, we want to be part of the industry. There's no need to be rude "Groundloop".

[Genghis the Engineer]

There will be jobs, yes.

But unless you are able to work in China - the only part of the world genuinely forecasting a major shortage, then no I doubt very much there will be a crisis. For the foreseeable future, there will be more low hour newly qualified pilots than there will be jobs for them.

I know a very good plumber with an fATPL !

G

[virgil.oix]

Thanks "Genghis the Engineer" it is true the crisis will be deeper in china but the folk at ICAO said that Europe will face a pilot crisis in the next 3-5 years because of all the schools reducing activity.

I did contact airlines in China, Air China group recruiters to be exact and they said that they would gladly welcome capitans but have no use for first officers as they train their own, and the tendency in Asia at the moment is to train pilots in order to be able to promote capitans that are nationals and reduce the number of expats and thus the massive costs of expat capitans(up to 200 000 US dollars a year for each capitan).

[mad_jock]

Its all based on some report from Boeing about predicted aircraft sales virgil.

All the schools have latched onto it as "proof" there is going to be a major shortage.

There is a hellva lot as assets heaped up in keeping schools going.

If they don't get the through put the capacity will drop off quite quickly. Once the capicity has gone it is extremely expensive and difficult to get that capacity back. Also to get it back it takes ages in comparison to how quickly the market requires pilots to be available for expansion.

The airline industry needs the schools to survive because there reaction time to expansion and training costs will increase. So its in there interest for wannabies to believe that there will be a shortage coming soon. There has been a shortage looming for as long as I have been looking at aviation which is over 20 years now. Same thing today as it was when I was sitting my school exams there isn't a shortage of low experenced pilots.

Much as I spar with groundloop about aviation degrees he certainly wasn't being rude. He was being 100% factual. :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes I've read those reports as well. I simply don't believe them. In reality, ICAO convene an conference every few years called the "Next Generation of Aviation Professionals Symposium", where you can always rely upon somebody, usually with a vested interest, saying there's going to be a pilot shortage and this being picked up selectively by bits of the aviation press.

For as long as I can remember (which is around 23 years working in aviation) there have been reports, usually sponsored to some greater or lesser extent by the training industry, saying that a pilot supply crisis was just around the corner. It's not happened yet, and I see no reliable evidence saying that it's going to happen sometime soon - from ICAO or anybody else.

As I said, there will be jobs. If you position yourself well, you have a good chance of getting one of those jobs. There will be not be a crisis magically creating jobs for every semi-employable young woman or man with a CPL, regardless of their real aptitude for the job. But, a well tuned and motivated person, with the right qualifications, attitude and aptitude, always has a good chance of getting a job in a cockpit. Eventually.

If you want to look at what was actually said at the last ICAO conference, here (http://legacy.icao.int/NGAP/documentation.htm) are the proceedings - you will not find the "crisis" stories that regularly appear in the press, however hard you look through what was said by the industry leaders.

G

[magicmick]

Hi Genghis, have you seen this:

Pilot shortage looms: UN - Yahoo! Finance UK (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/pilot-shortage-looms-un-190026393.html)

I’m sure that the training schools have, absolute top shelf material for them!!!!!!!

For what it’s worth I agree with yourself, MJ and Groundloop, any shortage is limited to senior grades and there’s more than enough unemployed inexperienced people to soak up any requirements anywhere in the world.

[mad_jock]

Yep all based on the same report.

They want to keep the current over supply so they can drive the T&C's down.

They want you to put 40-90k into the training industry to maintain it and then pay peanuts because there are 10 pilots for every job.

[magicmick]

Hi MJ, please excuse my ignorance/ naivety/ stupidity (delete as appropriate).

I can totally understand how the shortage forecast is the stuff of wet dreams for training school owners and airline CEOs to keep students coming in the doors and to keep Ts and Cs down for the fortunate few employed pilots.

However ICAO are behind this forecast and I can’t figure out why they would want to keep training schools full and Ts and Cs down.

Maybe I’m missing something.

[mad_jock]

If you go and have a look at the person that has put this out it may become more logical why it has come out.

Everything is linked through the World Aviation Training Conference and Tradeshow (WATS)

They will have put it out due to lobbying by the training industry which is more than likely suffering in the present climate in certain areas of the world.

[magicmick]

Fair enough, many thanks for the information.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi MJ, please excuse my ignorance/ naivety/ stupidity (delete as appropriate).

I can totally understand how the shortage forecast is the stuff of wet dreams for training school owners and airline CEOs to keep students coming in the doors and to keep Ts and Cs down for the fortunate few employed pilots.

However ICAO are behind this forecast and I can’t figure out why they would want to keep training schools full and Ts and Cs down.

Maybe I’m missing something.

No, some people talking at a conference organised by ICAO were behind the forecast. This is very different.

I've talked on BBC Newsnight about why certain accidents might have occurred. At the end of the day, you heard it from me, not from the BBC. On at-least one occasion the official accident report proved me completely wrong.

G

[magicmick]

Thanks for putting that into perspective Genghis, so any organisation can pay a fee and use an ICAO organised conference as a mouthpiece for their own agenda(s).

Joe Public sees the ICAO name all over the conference and trusts that everything presented is validated and endorsed by ICAO, thereby giving the information reasonable credibility.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Arguably true of Royal Aeronautical Society conferences, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics conferences, conferences organised by the government Chief Scientist.....

The issue really is that of some unscrupulous and biased journalists misconstruing conference "opinion" papers and then it getting picked up by organisations with strong interests and representing it as "fact".

G