UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2

[zorab64]

Given that the interviews for the new Flight Operations Director (providing a most inauspicious TLA, & rife for jokes in due course?) were held before Christmas, are there any rumours as to who might have been selected?
I had heard that four were selected for interview, although I gather that one-who-posts-here (& cannot be named) apparently pulled out before the day? It would appear imperative that, if anything is going to get done by 1st April, certainly to the satisfaction of the CAA, this post needs to be filled as immediately as possible.

In the meanwhile, however, a very Happy New Year to all ppruners - especially the prospective NPAS ones, hoping for a little more :ok: than :ugh:!!

Sadly, the cynic in me feels that the evidence to date favours a continuation of the cluster-***k approach so far adopted, although I'll be happy to be proved wrong :)

[Coconutty]

( Hopefully :hmm: ) a Happy New Year to all !

a relief helicopter will be available when the regular aircraft is off-line.Any more info on this now it's been publicly announced ? Bearing in mind that the current service offered by that ASU
does not cover the full 24 hour period each day, and therefore the aircraft will be off-line for part of the day,
Does this mean that an NPAS aircraft is going to be made available during those times,
or is it just to cover Scheduled / Unscheduled maintenance periods ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

Zorab - you little tinker:E
Let's hope that common sense prevails and the right person gets it eh?
Meanwhile consider the start date sliding right by about 6 months before anything concrete happens. Thank goodness for a gentle transition after the starting gun goes off in April. More later...................:ooh:

[handysnaks]

Cough!! TC ;)

[MP5]

Powers from up on high say it Will be all ready for this little event ;)

http://www.london2012.com/games/ceremonies/the-ceremonies/opening-ceremonies.php

[tigerfish]

Thats great! So can I take it that the spare aircraft will have already pre positioned and will not have to fly long distances to be of assistance, and that the 15/20 minute rule will not be abused?

No, - thats fine. Clearly, all pigs are saddled and are ready to fly at a moments notice!

For Gods sake let's get real! Like TC, I have given up. NPAS is a reality. It will happen!

But don't let anyone try to tell you that NPAS is an improvement! Their spin is bull****! - For example, - that "Now you will have a spare aircraft available!" That is is pure media spin. Oh yes, technically its true, but not for this mission! Maybe tomorrow, or the day after, but not now. Not immediately.

I must, and with great difficulty, I can, accept NPAS, solely as a result of the financial mess that we are in. But please, please, do not try to insult my intelligence by trying to tell me that this abortion will deliver an improvement in service.

For if you do, that will only invoke in me a determination to redouble my efforts to fight for what is right, and for the service we used to provide.

In the words of John Paul Jones, "I have not yet begun to fight!"

tigerfish:ugh:

[Coconutty]

Tiger,

Right with you there - that's why I was aksing,
it's not at all clear what the "more effective service" will be, if any.

Sure in some places there will be improvements - there already are,
for example in the Midlands where that Press clipping came from,
if an incident happens in the South of Derbyshire, or Nottinghamshire,
while the North Mids a/c is on a task at the the very top of their patch,
then the nearest aircraft can deploy - maybe East or West Mids -
That happens NOW and does not need NPAS to achieve those service improvements,
along with the consequent savings in the transit times ( and cost thereof ),
which are reduced by deploying the nearest aircraft.

BUT by doing so, that leaves either East or West Mids with a POORER service than they had before,
because "their" aircraft is no longer immediately available to the "Home" force.

This is particularly so during those "out of hours" times when the 1 Midlands force out of 4 that operate 24 hours a day,
could get pulled away anywhere in the region a lot more often than it does now.

So some days you'll win, and the "facts" will be brandished accordingly,
while ( I suspect ), on the days that you'll lose, it will all be kept very "Q".

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Eurocopper]

Someone told me NT has moved on - is this correct?

Who is covering training, maintenance and procurement now?

[Coconutty]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Abandon.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[chopper2004]

When seeing the news coverage of the discovery of female remains around the Sandringham estate, the BBC newscasters were saying about Norfolk police helicopter assisting with investigation so thoughts of the ghost of Sterling and G-BMTC haunting the grounds of royalty came to mind :E:D

Then reality awoke as the camera zeroed in on G-SUFK (forgetting the Cambs/Suffolk/Essex Consortium now covering Norfolk and so enough G-SUFK may well be covering Cambs as well come April onwards)

In all seriousness thoughts with the families of the two missing girls this will as unfortunately any outcome of the formal identification investigation won't bring anything positive to them.

I can't remember off hand if G-CMBS was scrambled initially when the Peterborough girl disappeared or if it was down for maintenance at the time (?)

Regardless of the consequences over the horizon from NPAS I wonder if in the case of missing persons whether there be easier re tasking of more resources to concentrate on tracking say missing children, kidnap victims, or anyone at risk in terms of health problems in need of immediate medical attention.

All the best

[zorab64]

Chopper, I believe you're quite correct, as I understand that Suffolk have been covering Norfolk since April anyway, so you'd expect them or Cambs (as the closest two aircraft) to be covering that part of Norfolk.
I've also heard that CMBS has been short of a part for a "little" while, so just pre-empting NPAS, as far as operations in that region are concerned. :ugh:

[BIT]

On linked in this morning Ollie Dismore announced his taking up of the role of Flt Ops Director at NPAS.

Wishing him and everyone involved in the future of UK Police aviation a safe and successful future.
:D

[Gas Generator]

That's the first bit of positive news about NPAS - full stop, good luck to OD, well done.

First person with the requisite aviation experience reaches NPAS!

Perhaps things will change for the better now and some common sense will emerge?

Now - why has NT departed NPAS before it officially exists? Has the West Yorks experiment collapsed? Any news here?

:oh:

[Thomas coupling]

Phew, relief. I'd have been pig sick if OD hadn't been selected.:(

Now all that remains is for him to:

Write a new national AOC.
Find savings in addition to the loss of "x" cabs.
Decide on DE or CP for the fleet of drivers.
(just for starters).

All within the next few months................................

Wishing you every success Ollie and next time - it's my turn!:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one Ollie :ok:

Does this mean that we will have at least one floater pilot available now ;)

[SilsoeSid]

While we are all here;

Spare aircraft - Will they all be the same type? If not, who will fly the ac type that is not usually used at that unit? How will only 3 ac cover the servicing requirements of 26 aircraft? Will they all be fitted with same cameras, role equipment, software or a generic airwave fill? Or would the training needs be met before the spare arrives at the unit, thereby preventing a potential loss of effectiveness/efficiency/profficiency

A19 - Will this apply to NPAS? Is there any truth in the rumour of a 4 year minimum secondment to NPAS, which may lead to some present observers going over 30 years service or deciding they cannot make that commitment?

Pilots - EASA Licencing, Ref AIC W 090/2011 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-4593D632F4E33A6FEDC30D17CBDC0C29/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIC/W/090-2011/EG_Circ_2011_W_090_en_2011-10-06.pdf)do I read it that they will all require an IR within the next 2 years for 'commercial air transport' (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=952&pagetype=70&gid=953&faqid=667) flying? If not, will the 'type' of flying change meaning the observers can then become 'crew' and in turn the age limit for pilot retirement increases?

[Art of flight]

Sid, IMHO i think 1st April (the date you and I amongst others join NPAS?)will be the start of a very long process of trial and error, perhaps by the time the last region join 'we' will have provided the management team with sufficient 'evidence' to start to answer some of those questions of yours. I imagine there will be plenty of 'projects' for us to be the subject of:hmm:.

My first question would be with 11 weeks to go to the start date, who will be the new employer?

A very gradual process no doubt and good luck to all involved!

[SilsoeSid]

My first question would be with 11 weeks to go to the start date, who will be the new employer?

Well, one things for sure, we will all be getting paid by the same employer as we are now!

[Art of flight]

:O Nice to know, hope that doesn't change in the near future. Will they also be paying for the 80 odd IRs that will be required for us to captain the single pilot helicopters we already fly, within the next 2 years?:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

I guess we're all on a rolling 3 months employment at the moment!

How are forces going to allocate the budget for air support for financial year 2012-2013 if there is the delay TC hints at? And what if it slides again in October?

:eek:

[jayteeto]

Who will pay for IRs? A lot of us already have IRs in the non police world. Some with police experience :ok: these pilots may be a cheaper long term option when the jobs are advertised soon.

[tigerfish]

Have been away for a couple of days so missed the news about the appointment of OD and the departure of NT.

Perhaps at last a little chink of light! OD is clearly the best chance that NPAS have of pulling this mess around. If anyone can do it he can.

Once again, and to clarify, I have always supported the concept of a National Police Air Wing. Everyone recognises that we are in a deep financial mess and that serious savings would have to be made. It was the silence and the strange decisions that NPAS were making behind closed doors, that got so many backs up, certainly mine included.

Now with Ollie in a position of influence perhaps we can make some real progress.

Well Done Ollie!

tigerfish :D

[Thomas coupling]

OD pays this forum the odd visit now and again, obviously under a nom de plume. I suspect he will need to go a bit deeper under cover now because of his position, but if you are careful with what you wish for and constructive with what you suggest on this forum, who knows what NPAS could look like in the future (well - at least until April 2012:hmm:).
My take to these recent comments:
I fervently believe the reason for the delays incurred by the pre (OD) NPAS was because they (they being a non aviation executive) were unable to deliver a solid worked thru product to the CAA's satisfaction. In particular with regard to SAFETY. How does the NPAS intend to protect everything the CAA stands for with this all singing all dancing national air force? They couldn't come up with the goods. They have tried a number of options and each time the CAA have batted the problem back into their court.
This is because the Police genuinely believe they can resolve all matters aviation - without a FULL TIME aviator. I appreciate they have had advice/consultation from the likes of OD/SI/handysnaks in the past, but that doesn't meet with the CAA's requirements long term.
The new AOC will have to cater for TQM (total quality management) in both ops and maintenance. For example, let me ask you this:

Who monitors/supervises the maintenance standards currently in your operation? The probable answer for 'most' units is: the maintenance manager. And who employs the maintenance manager - probably the maintenance outfit perhaps? Conflict of interest or what???
In addition - how many units allow for totally independent maintenance audits of their operation? Probably a couple at the most.

Second question (for UEO's):
As it stands currently you now find yourself as REO (regional Exec Off.) and allow "other" units a/c to fly into your area of operations to prosecute a task.
Who has legal responsibility for their safety/activities. Is it the CC of the force who dispatched the a/c? Is it the CC of the a/c which currently still owns the a/c, is it the CC of the force area within which it is now operating whilst carrying out said task? Mmmmm? Who will "hang" if that cab launching from, say, Cheshire, called out by the regional call centre, flies to a task in the mountains and subsequently stoofs into Crib Goch at night in bad weather? I guarantee none of the UEO's know, because they have no control over other units' working practices inculding training requirements and currency etc. Now if the UEO's don't know, you can bet your bottom dollar that each of the C.C's won't have a clue.:confused:

Now multiply this by 6 for all the regions across the UK and you will understand why the CAA may be a little concerned and jittery as to why the NPAS team cannot answer - hence another (of many) reason why it has been suggested that they need to get their skates on by employing a FOD who is the only person fit for purpose in this regard..

All of this is currently 'under consideration' (or so it should be) by the CAA and I suspect will be catered for by the compulsory requirement for SMS in the near future (which will also answer another question - alignment with the EASA model). I believe that secretly, the CAA want to see an EASA style AOC for the future Police AirForce of the UK.

OD's first major task will be to align the NPAS with a European model, answer the yawning gap in safety management and bring it all together under a brand new shiney EASA AOC. Time frame: I'd guess 18 months.

Meanwhile, I read somewhere that the budget for NPIA has been increased in light of shortfalls and that NPAS is getting an increase in its annual allowance from 4 million (from the H.O.) to 6 million, I believe - can someone confirm that?
Alas, very little of that will trickle back to OD's back pocket for a man doing an ACC's job on Supt pay:uhoh:

[handysnaks]

Pilots - EASA Licencing, Ref AIC W 090/2011 do I read it that they will all require an IR within the next 2 years for 'commercial air transport' flying? If not, will the 'type' of flying change meaning the observers can then become 'crew' and in turn the age limit for pilot retirement increases?

Which bit are you reading that implies that then?

[SilsoeSid]

As we will be part of a National Police Air Service, in theory we could be called upon to operate in any part of the nation.

May I be the first to offer my services to the workshop that will be responsible for sourcing a training establishment for the mountain rating course.

I have already completed some research and my initial thoughts would be Switzerland or Austria, however I believe Canada & California should also be on the list of places to visit, before settling for Scotland :p


What will be the effect of the introduction of the mountain rating?
The EU regulations introduce a Mountain Rating, to replace the national rating that already exists in Switzerland and elsewhere. This will be granted on completion of an approved course on taking off and landing in mountainous regions. The effect of this in the future will be that pilots will not be able to take-off or land in mountainous areas with EASA aircraft unless they have a mountain rating. The rating will not be mandatory until 8th April 2015. Implementation of this rating in the UK is not a priority. Holders of EASA Part-FCL licences will be able to take courses in other EU States to obtain this rating.



FAQ Answer | EASA | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=620&pagetype=70&gid=2134&faqid=1317)

[Gas Generator]

Mountain Ratings

It appears from the EASA website and the mostly Swiss documents that the Mountain Rating will be required when operating between 5000 and 18000 ft! Ben Nevis hill not that high........

IR's

Nothing in 090/2011 to suggest mandatory IR,s for police ops. In fact, annex iii, Part-ORO, FC200, 202 and 250 indicate the hours requirement for VFR at night,

A valid instrument rating OR

250(a)(2)(ii)

300 hours of flight time on helicopters, including 100 hours as PIC and 10 hours as pilot flying at night.
:)

[Thomas coupling]

Is there truth in the rumour that the NPAS process has slipped right until the end of 2012. Now why is that?:E

[Fly_For_Fun]

I think 1st April 2012 for Eastern and Central region on track I think.

[Gas Generator]

How is NPAS going to be online for April when they still do not exist and at the latest information will not have the means now to exist until late February at the least, assuming West Yorks goes ahead and hosts?

Then who is going to give that organisation the internal structure to start trading (so to speak)? Ops manual? etc, etc?

I think TC was spot on (before the phone call/email?), Dec 2012 is the next date to look forward to.

:\

[SilsoeSid]

Have any of the potential host forces fully signed up yet?

[SilsoeSid]

GG
It appears from the EASA website and the mostly Swiss documents that the Mountain Rating will be required when operating between 5000 and 18000 ft! Ben Nevis hill not that high........

Is that PA or DA ?
;)

[SilsoeSid]

How much does it cost to run 23 helicopters for a year?

I am minded to amend the capital allocations for police authorities in order to support the establishment of the National Police Air Service. I will consider carefully any representations on this matter before taking my decision in time for the final settlement debate in February 2012. This change would mean that the proportion of police capital that goes to the NPAS would be increased to £10.8m in 2012/13 – £6m more than I suggested this time last year. These proposed figures are set out in table 2.
copied from table 2

National Police Air Service
2012/13 £11m
2013/14 £13m
2014/15 £10m



I notice that £50m has been allocated for the elections of the new Police and Crime Commissioners :hmm:

Allocation of police funding 2012-13 | Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/parliamentary-business/written-ministerial-statement/police-funding/police-funding?)

[Coconutty]

the proportion of police capital that goes to the NPAS would be increased to £10.8m in 2012/13 – £6m more than I suggested this time last year.

I wonder if there are any other calclations that were used to convey to Police Authorities,
the level of cost savings to be made, when in actual fact, according to the above,
the initial "suggested" figures have had to be increased by 125% !

How does that all factor out in the £15 million Annual savings that were "expected" ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

The £15 million savings will be/are already being made by getting rid of the sacrificial helo's. Remember though that the original savings figure was 22%. This, I believe is now down to 11%. Although some 'regions' are declaring better than 11%.
Further savings can be made by making most (90%) of all the pilots: DE (In my opinion).
Further savings by stopping units 'loitering' after a job and trying to be pro-active. In airframe hours and fuel.
Long term savings: get rid of different airframes. They should all be EC135's with the exception of MPS. FW for Dyfed Powys - don't make me laugh:ugh:

My post #23 is answered by Silsoesid's latest re the additional funding which is absolutely essential if NPAS is to be taken seriously for the following reasons:

They need money to pay their overheads.
They need money to pay those units back for relinquishing their a/c to NPAS.
They need money to pay for their new AOC.
They need money to pay for their offices (whenever that is decided and W yorks are STILL deliberating as to whether they want the job of running NPAS!!).

This latest cash injection is a positive signal from the H.O. that this project will not fail. AND it answers a lot of police authorities concerns that there is no future funding plan by the NPAS. This will persuade most, now, to join.

So watch out for the following:

Statement on delaying the start of NPAS.
Who the new 'parent' of NPAS is (W Yorks / MPA / Kent)
Who will replace NPIA.

But I agree - this latest cash injection makes a mockery of the original cash cutbacks they were trying to achieve. I would love to see how far out they have projected to start actually clawing back their money. It must be close to 10+yrs now.

[peterprobe]

Love that comment "they should all be ec135s" really !!

[ARIS]

TC
Amazing how apparently well informed you've recently become!! :ok:

[Savoia]

...........

13 January 2012

Media information: For immediate release

Authority committed to Police helicopter service for South Yorkshire

South Yorkshire Police Authority has reiterated its commitment to securing a dedicated police helicopter service for the county.

Members of the Authority want to retain the current air support and have rejected Home Office plans to install a National Police Air Support (NPAS) service, which will see 23 aircraft operating from 20 bases around the country.

The nearest helicopters for South Yorkshire are planned to be based in Derbyshire, Humberside and West Yorkshire.

To resolve the issue the Police Authority has requested further information from NPAS on how they will serve South Yorkshire.

Charles Perryman, chair of South Yorkshire Police Authority, said: “We want a Police helicopter to be based in South Yorkshire to maintain an effective and resilient air support for the county.

“We require reassurances from Government that the national scheme will not reduce services to the county. Despite repeated requests for additional information from the National Police Air Support team, nothing has been received.

“Members of the Authority have now agreed to take this back to their local councils and involve cabinet ministers in order to achieve a resolution to the issue.

“The helicopter strengthens the force’s ability to reduce crime, protect vulnerable people and reduce vehicle accidents and the value of this cannot be underestimated.”

A dedicated website on the Authority’s campaign to secure a police helicopter service for South Yorkshire has been launched. For more information go to www.southyorks.gov.uk (http://www.southyorks.gov.uk/)

Follow South Yorkshire Police Authority on Twitter @sypoliceauth.

ENDS

Released on behalf of the South Yorkshire Police Authority by HR Media Ltd. For further information please contact Steve Hutton at HR Media on 0114 252 7771 or email [email protected].

[Art of flight]

Any county that has done the sums and decided they can sustain the cost of in county air support alongside all the other policing requirements and remain outside the proposed new national organisation should be congratulated for being prudent in the 'boom' years. Perhaps that famous Yorkshire 'thrift'!:ok:

For most, it's just not an option due to reducing budgets. Norfolk (5th or 6th largest county) could not afford to replace the aircraft so now rely on a neighbour who themselves have struggled to fund flying hours in the past few years. Cambridgeshire are reducing their annual flying hours at the change over despite then having to rely totally on an aircraft comming from out of county that will inevitably use more hours in transit from that reduced amount. I think we all know the operational 'truth' of the move to NPAS, just that South Yorks are the only force shouting it at present.

[SilsoeSid]

All there is to know about NPAS here;

National Police Air Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Air_Service)

[SilsoeSid]

I know they say that no news is good news, but who is the good news for?

Full Screen Countdown to Apr 1, 2012 12:01 AM in London (http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/fullscreen.html?mode=a&year=2012&month=04&day=01&hour=00&min=01&p0=136)

http://www.matthewsland.com/doctorwho/fun/POLARITY.JPG

[Fortyodd2]

.........I think you may need to reset that clock - April 2013 apparently - at least for those in our part of the world :ugh:

[Art of flight]

Will the clock become NPAS property, if so what date, and who will employ it?:\

[Coconutty]

Art,

I dont think the actual design of the NPAS clock is complete yet,
and is being developed as part of the "Watchkeeper Workstream". :E

The basic concept however is that there will be a single NPAS clock - kept at NPAS HQ -
to make timekeeping more efficient, which will also save money on the cost of keeping time.

All existing Air Support Units clocks will be removed from service, saving vast amounts ( in percentage terms )
that are spent around the Country on Mains power, and watch & clock batteries as only one AA battery will be needed, plus one spare. :8

Timekeeping around the National Air Support Units will be standardised,
with a new "NPAS Day". This will comprise 14 NPAS Hours that are equivalent to 24 Pre NPAS Hours. :confused:

This radical new concept will have the following effect :


Units currently operating 24 hours a day will only have to work 14 hours under NPAS,
yet will be able to provide the same service. ( Same for less ).



Promises to arrive on scene within 20 minutes are much more likely to be achieved under NPAS time,
as 20 NPAS minutes will be the equivalent of 35 Pre NPAS minutes. ( More for same ).



The wages bill will be considerably less - only 14 hours of wages to be paid each day. ( Same for less ) :ouch:

Sorted :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

April 2013...Mmmm, I'd like to see what happens to that £11million budget, on top of the £4million from last year.

The National Police Air Service will have 23 aircraft at 20 bases. This will save £15m from the current total of £66m.
BBC News - New service to provide police helicopters (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11627331)

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think there's an elephant in the room :suspect:

[zorab64]

Coconutty - thank you for your excellent analysis, I have a nasty feeling you've hit one of the nails on the head.

Nice to have a chortle on a Saturday night! :ok:

[Eurocopper]

April 1st 2012 seemed the right date for NPAS; are we to wait another year? Spin, smoke & mirrors all still functioning to maximum effect. :ugh: :rolleyes:

[Thomas coupling]

Fortyodd is joining NPAS later (2013) than the others as his region will be the last (ish) to join. The final tranche joins after the para olympics is over (2014).
The NWAOG region have been operating as a test region since last July. The other 'shadow' region is the CRASU which started in June 2011. And a jolly good job they are doing to!
However the original cost savings projected to be 22% (Option 2) have been whittled down to between 11% and 18% (depending on who you talk to) inside these shadow regions.

[tigerfish]

C'mon Guy's. I've been one of the strongest criticts of NPAS amongst you, but I have worked alongside Ollie and firmly believe that if anyone can deliver some sanity out of this pigs breakfast, then its Ollie.

Lets cut him some slack, and give him some time start working his magic. He's got an unbelievably impossible task ahead without us making it more difficult for him.

I believe implicitely in a National Police Airwing, but not in the way that Hogan-Howe and Alex Marshall saw it, - purely as a money saving exercise!!

I believe that Ollie recognises the need to save money, but also recognises that it should not be at the expense of efficiency. - Difficult task, but lets try to help, and not make his job more difficult!

tigerfish
aka "Old Grumpy":ok:

[Gas Generator]

Tfish

I'm not sure what you have been drinking lately, absolutely no one appears to have critised OD on this thread whatsoever? Probably due to the fact that he is not in a position to do anything until March?

I cannot see anyone on this thread making things difficult at all for OD, only to wish him the very best wishes but, no magic, although someone has made NT disappear, perhaps that was the wizard of South Yorkshire - or is that the 'ghost' of South Yorkshire.

Your post TF is about 6 months too early methinks, are you using the NPAS clock yet?


:confused:

[tigerfish]

Certainly not! And I think that you may be the one that might be behind the drag curve. Because I understand that OD is being released early from his current chains!

Now is not the time for in fighting! Have you never understood the value of nurturing the 1st shoots of spring?

What I was saying is that there is just a little chink of light on the horizen. So lets give it a chance to come good!

Actually I think that the bit from Coconutty about "NPAS time" is great, and we aught to adopt it! ( In reverse of course).

tigerfish.:=

[Coconutty]

From what I hear the NPAS Calendar is also being adjusted ( April 2012 = ??? ) ;)

Should give Olly ( Who also has my full support ) much more time to get things sorted :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Minister will use powers for the first time


Police to share national air service
Policing minister will for the first time use powers to direct forces to collaborate, after one force objected to plan

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/1/25/1327520163072/Nick-Herbert-007.jpg
Nick Herbert, the policing minister. Photograph: Steve Parsons/PA

A national police air service is to be launched to ensure all forces across England and Wales have 24-hour access to a helicopter.

The policing minister, Nick Herbert, has for the first time used powers to direct forces to collaborate with each other to create the service, after one police authority, South Yorkshire, launched a campaign to keep sole use of its helicopter.

The service will have 22 aircraft, mostly helicopters but also some fixed-wing planes, operating from 20 bases across the country.

Herbert, who will announce the move in a speech in London, will say that the collaborative move will save £15m a year out of the current £70m annual bill for keeping police helicopters in the air.

"The plan has the full support of chief constables and will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days a year – in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days at a time while they are being repaired," Herbert said.

He said the plan had the support of all 41 chief constables and the majority of police authorities, and to get the full benefits the whole of the police service in England and Wales had to take part.

"The time for talking about collaboration, and the era of police fiefdoms, is over," Herbert said. "In exceptional cases of last resort, I am prepared to mandate arrangements where a small minority of authorities or forces creates a barrier to more efficient or effective policing."

The order directing South Yorkshire to take part in the national air service is to be made under new powers in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011.

The decision to set up a national police air service followed a review by Bernard Hogan-Howe when he was chief constable of Merseyside in 2009. It found that in too many cases forces refused to allow their helicopters to be used over the border in a neighbouring force area, even if it was closer to the incident.

South Yorkshire police authority rejected the Home Office's invitation to take part, arguing it would mean the nearest helicopters for them would be based in Derbyshire, Humberside and West Yorkshire.

Charles Perryman its chairman, said last week: "We want a police helicopter to be based in South Yorkshire to maintain an effective and resilient air support for the county."
Police to share national air service | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/26/police-national-air-service?newsfeed=true)

[SilsoeSid]

Everyone's waiting!

BBC News - South Yorkshire police chairman criticises helicopter cut (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-16737002)

Police wait for news on helicopter contract (From This Is Wiltshire) (http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/9495443.Police_wait_for_news_on_helicopter_contract/)

[Coconutty]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Herbert.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

http://www.west-midlands-pa.gov.uk/documents/committees/public/2012/07_Finance_19Jan2012_National_Police_Air_Service.pdf

Finance and Resources Committee 19 January 2012

NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE
Report of the Chief Constable and Treasurer
.
.
.
NPAS FUNDING MODEL

Capital
5. Previous financial models have been based on transferring ownership of the helicopter asset to NPAS, with a complicated ‘capital credit’ and ‘capital contribution’ to reflect the loss of an asset and the cost of funding a replacement.

6. However, this is no longer the preferred option and the latest proposed funding model does not require transfer of ownership. The current proposal is to top slice capital grant at a national level and redirect capital grant directly to NPAS to fund asset purchase and replacement. There is currently £12m of capital grant allocated to NPAS, and this new approach would see an additional £22m of capital grant redirected out of force allocations to NPAS over the remaining three years of the CSR.

7. The impact on West Midlands of this top slice is that capital grant allocations are reduced by £1.15m over three years. This needs to be balanced against the removal of the previous ‘capital contribution’ of £0.95m over the three years. The net position therefore is that the top slice is £0.2m higher than the capital contribution would have been. Whilst not hugely material to the overall capital resources available to the Authority, it is worth noting that for 27 forces the top slice is less than the capital contribution would have been and hence they have gained from the change in approach.

8. As the asset will now not be transferred to NPAS the ‘capital credit’ mechanism will also not apply, however West Midlands Police will receive the proceeds from the disposal of the helicopter at the end of it’s life. This will provide a capital receipt and should not generate any cost.

Revenue
9. The underlying principle of NPAS is that every force will pay less for air support than
they currently do (based on 2009/10 figures). An update of revenue costs is expected in the first week of January and a verbal update will be provided at the meeting. However, the latest information we have is that the revenue cost of NPAS to West Midlands Police will be £1.8m compared to the existing budget of £1.9m, thus resulting in a saving of £0.1m.

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one coco;

Here's one from Nick earlier in his career;

'Nick Herbert launches Honest Food labelling campaign'

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/images/2009/02/16/honestfood.jpg


In more modern times;
Perhaps he'd like to support an honest reaction time/effectiveness campaign!

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/nickherbert.jpg
:E


:ok:
There is hope though...who ate all the pies!!!!!
Commissioner Kerry Katona for top police role in Cheshire? (http://www.runcornandwidnesweeklynews.co.uk/runcorn-widnes-news/runcorn-widnes-local-news/2012/01/26/commissioner-kerry-katona-for-top-police-role-in-cheshire-55368-30197765/)
“Nick Herbert (police minister) and his friends in the numerous ‘think tanks’ that come up with these ideas must be very proud. This is not the common room at a private school, this is the real world and changes in the way we police need careful consideration by people with an understanding of the dangerous job officers do on a daily basis.”
:D

[Art of flight]

So....the fat lady has sung........at least South Yorks will have the moral high ground when stats prove they've suffered in a few years time.

As forces will not now be transferring their aircraft as capital assets, who will be paying for the replacements when they're needed?

[tigerfish]

But if ownership remains with the existing forces, how can NPAS DICTATE where the asset is based?

For example how can NPAS now force Bedfordshire and partners to give up their EC135 as a spare, and close down their operation at RAF Henlow?

If confirmed, the new arrangements would appear not so very different from the existing picture, - except perhaps, with enhanced and mandated co-operation between units. Something that was increasingly happening anyway.

Or have I misunderstood?:ugh:

tigerfish

[helihub]

Tigerfish - I understand your logic. So if SYorks (for example) have to give up their helicopter from Budget A to satisfy the NPAS mandarins, could they open a new Budget B and operate the helicopter from there...?

it sort of makes you want to urge SYorks to carry on flying do this to NPAS... (with thanks to Google and apologies to Ocama's chief of staff...!)

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/860/slide_860_15065_large.jpg

[Coconutty]

15th November 2012 - ( "Super Thursday" ), is the date for elections to be held for the new Police Commssioners,
and, if the Public want them, to elect new Mayors in some cities.

Is it time to start campaigning for who WE want in these posts ?

I propose Tigerish for the West Midlands Police Commissioner,
( I'm sure we can rustle up a few volunteers if you need a hand moving house ;) )

and while we're there how about Sid for the new Mayor of Birmingham ? :ok:

.... oh, and in response to Sid's "Who ate all the pies", it was our old friend the then Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott who announced, in March 1999 :
"Local people in towns and cities everywhere will be able to vote for an elected mayor to lead their communities.
They will be able to choose how their communities should be governed."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/300000/images/_302316_prescott150.jpg
John Prescott: "Communities will choose how to be governed"

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Wagging Finger]

AoF

Looks like it's already been covered,
The current proposal is to top slice capital grant at a national level and redirect capital grant directly to NPAS to fund asset purchase and replacement.

:=

[SilsoeSid]

and while we're there how about Sid for the new Mayor of Birmingham ? :ok:


Unfortunately Coco, my impementation of the Governments Big Society may be slightly different to the way they may like it !!!

The Governments viewpoint;
The aim is "to create a climate that empowers local people and communities, building a big society that will 'take power away from politicians and give it to people'.

This is how I see Big Society in action ;

Big Society: A Short Film


"Throw your chips at me and we'll see what happens...."

[Art of flight]

WF

Looks like we're getting some sensible thinking on these matters now that we have have directors appointed to finance, HR and operations.

Sid

Go for it, take it a step further and we can re-role all ex-service as unpaid taser carrying pcso types and get rid of the police altogether, certainly cut back on paperwork and cost....

[Fly_For_Fun]

Art are you suggesting that NPAS civilianize all Air Ops positions? Not a bad idea.:ok:

[SWBKCB]

Cleveland Police force authority chairman Stuart Drummond says setting up the National Police Air Support Service could save Cleveland Police £250,000 a year.

National Police Air Support Service could save Cleveland Police £250k - Local News - News - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2012/01/27/national-police-air-support-service-could-save-cleveland-police-250k-84229-30206640/)

[SilsoeSid]

From the same link;
“As a result of the discussions we have had with the team developing the plans for the national service, we believe that the latest proposals would deliver savings in Cleveland of around £250,000 a year.”
:rolleyes:

They also told Wiltshire they would save £1.335m p.a. :hmm:
Downloads | Strategy Direction and Progress | October 2011 | 2011 | Archive | Public meetings (http://www.wiltshire-pa.gov.uk/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=170&Itemid=63)

Funny how that when the West Mids finance people look at the figures, as previously linked, they only get a saving of £100,000 over a 3 year period! (assuming all the budget is spent)
:suspect:

[SilsoeSid]

By the way, has King Canute, sorted out the Colerne problem yet ?

First broadcast BBC Wiltshire, 6:30AM Thu, 26 Jan 2012
Colerne in north west Wiltshire has been chosen as one of the new bases for the National Police Air Service,
BBC iPlayer - Matthew Smith: New police helicopter service base in Wiltshire (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00mwp0r/Matthew_Smith_New_police_helicopter_service_base_in_Wiltshir e/)


WILTSHIRE POLICE AUTHORITY AGENDA ITEM NO: 8
Strategy, Direction & Progress4.4 Ensuring operational coverage both in terms of time and non-time critical incidents remains a concern with Colerne given its topographical and geographical location. NPAS commissioned a meteorological study approximately one year ago due to concerns about poor weather which may lead to an increased loss of service. The study has been completed using comparative data from RAF Lyneham and Bristol Airport and it is known that NPAS are in possession of that report but they keep delaying the publishing of that report.
18th October 2011 Document6039_ (http://www.aspola.org.uk/cache/HTML/Document6039_515152.html)

[Helinut]

The difference between Colerne and Filton is not just any difference between the met at the two locations.

It is also a difference of the PAOM rules. Because Filton is so close to Bristol city and there is a carpet of ground lights all the way, then lower weather/vis limits can be used for night flying. Makes a big difference for jobs in the Bristol city area. Colerne is in a black hole on a hill.

Also the weather at Filton is VERY likely to be the same as the weather over Bristol city, so there is less uncertainty over go/no-go decisions.

Finally, the weather at Bristol Lulsgate airport has all sorts of reasons for being different from the weather in Bristol city area, despite being fairly close. There are major topographical features at Lulsgate tending to create poor vis, which do not apply in the same way at Filton or Bristol city.

Comparing the weather between Colerne/Lyneham and Lulsgate will tell you very little of interest: that could be the intention of course.

[SilsoeSid]

NPAS commissioned a meteorological study approximately one year ago due to concerns about poor weather which may lead to an increased loss of service. The study has been completed using comparative data from RAF Lyneham and Bristol Airport

I hear what you're saying Helinut, I don't understand why they didn't obtain data from Colerne itself for this study.
METAR Information for EGUO in Colerne, United Kingdom (http://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/EGUO?tile=10;showall=1)

[Art of flight]

The Lyneham data is free, setting up equipment and collecting data reliably at Colerne would have taken some effort...and cost.:=

The Met office used to have a great little on-line sim that alowed the user to input any lat/long position in the UK and run a defined period (year/3 year etc) run of historical cloudbase and viz. The user just set the amsl line to get the percentage day/night out of limits data according to operating criteria. Might still be available?

Certainly showed that a choice of base some years ago in East Anglia would lose a predictable amount of night shifts, but other concerns won out in that choice:uhoh: Guess what.............

[tigerfish]

Local media carried a story about 2 weeks ago, to the effect that CC's of Avon & Somerset & Wiltshire had agreed with NPAS that Colerne was not suitable for all weather operations, and as a result it had been dismissed as an option

The two helicopters currently operating from Filton ( One Police and one Air Ambulance) would remain in situe for the forseeable future. Current activities for the Police, surround working closer with the co-located Charitable Trust "Great Western Air Ambulance" to make better use of facilities.

It was also confirmed that the local authority had indicated their "In principle" support towards any application designed to establish a permanent emergency services air base on the soon to be closed Filton airfield site.

A further chink of light?

tigerfish:D

[Helinut]

Brilliant result. Common sense sometimes wins out. As you say, perhaps there is a light out there somewhere................

[Gas Generator]

Why isn't this or any other information coming from NPAS?

:confused:

[SilsoeSid]

Doesn't the saying go something like;

'Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think that you don't know what you are talking about, than to open it and prove it !'


Perhaps that's why there is an NPAS forum on a website available only to those with a .pnn account and only when it has been verified that a particular individual is in the pnn helicopter world are they allowed to see what is in it. All that's then needed is to to add small print saying anything discussed there is not to be mentioned in the outside world and we have a nice little conspiracy going on.

One question I'd like to see asked would be, 'of all the people working in the 'does it actually exist yet' NPAS, why is it only one post has ever been advertised?'

I guess that must be one busy informative forum. I've even heard it called a 'Doublethink tank' :ooh:

Roflmao
:ok:

[helihub]

Anyone any ideas why the Met's three EC145s have had an ownership transfer

From - METROPOLITAN POLICE AUTHORITY
To - THE MAYOR'S OFFICE FOR POLICING AND CRIME

Check here for G-MPSA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=reg&fullregmark=MPSA) for confirmation

Is this the first stage of NPAS?

[SilsoeSid]

Anyone any ideas why the Met's three EC145s have had an ownership transfer

From - METROPOLITAN POLICE AUTHORITY
To - THE MAYOR'S OFFICE FOR POLICING AND CRIME



Helihub,

A simple matter of the previous owner being disbanded.

London's mayor is now responsible for the Metropolitan Police's priorities and performance, as part of government plans for elected commissioners.

The Metropolitan Police Authority was disbanded at midnight and replaced by the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime (MOPC).
16 January 2012
BBC News - London mayor gains powers over the Metropolitan Police (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16567959)

[helihub]

Sounds exactly in line with that BBC story I'd missed. Thanks, SilsoeSid.

[SilsoeSid]

With the Oct '10 plan now being mandated, can we take it that the spectre of a central control room is back with us?

[Helinut]

From the good news about Colerne (if it proves true), it would appear you cannot be certain about much in what has been "planned".

Perhaps non-aviators have decided what they would like, but at some point there needs to be an aviation reality check. That's why you need a chief pilot or flight ops director or similar. The plans were provisional, in practice, pending the arrival of someone who knows what they were talking about.

Pretty obviously there will need to be an overall comms setup and a status board equivalent, to monitor aircraft safety and availability. Whether you need a CONTROL room, taking the initiative to make deployment decisions is quite another question.

Was there any info as to whether self-deployment will be allowed in what is planned? (Consider this a rhetorical question) Otherwise, you will get significant/substantial delays in time-critical tasking.

[tigerfish]

Helinut, I agree with your "If correct " You will note it was a media quote and we all know how accurate they can be. However there is some local evidence to suggest that they might be correct this time.

You are also spot on re the Importance of self deployment in Police Air Ops.

Normally and quite correctly shunned in other areas of Police operations as being ill disciplined, and uncontrolled. Air support is different, and it is different for one very important reason Speed!

The whole secret of success in Police Air Operations is the ability to get overhead quickly, and before the culprit has left the scene. That ability is seriously challenged by any delay in getting airborne. If the crew have to wait until the control room wakes up and thinks "Helicopter" vital minutes may well have elapsed and the culprit escaped. That has been proved time & time again.

Keep Self Deployment, or lose the fight!

tigerfish

[zorab64]

secret of success in Police Air Operations is the ability to get overhead quickly, and before the culprit has left the scene. That ability is seriously challenged by any delay in getting airborne
. . . and also by being based, or on another task, 30+nm from the incident in question! :=

The promise that CCs will have greater availability of an aircraft, as there won't be any loss of operation while their normal machine is being serviced, completely ignores the fact that, although there might be one available, it's very likely that it'll be too far away to have any chance of success. Of course this won't bother the bean-counters and backside-covering control rooms, who will be able to say they "deployed every available resource" !! :ugh:

[tigerfish]

Zorab! All that of course is true. I guess that I'm just getting tired of saying it!

I hope that Ollie can cut out all this "spin" crap. We all know that the system is broke, and there is very little in the budget. So why not tell the public the truth? What we can offer now, - is a sad reflection on what we could do before the cuts. But that's where it is! We can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

The public appreciate honesty! They may believe all this "Its an improvement" crap for a while, but once the truth starts to come out, they will not be happy.

But then I guess that all the Chiefs and Politicians responsible for this mess will be retired by then and can blame someone else.

Now! How many Police Officers have we lost since Theresa May told the President of the Superintendents Association that he was talking rubbish when he said that the reduction in Police funding would result in lower Police numbers and efficiency?

Sorry Guys I know that I'm a bore on this subject, but after so long in the job it hurts to see a proud service brought so low.

tigerfish:=

[SilsoeSid]

Is there anywhere that a member of the public can surf to in order to see how the National Police Air Service is coming along? As far as Joe Public is concerned, nothing has changed and all is going ahead as initially planned on 1st April.

The only thing out there is coverage of smiling Nick Herbert saying that it will happen.

[SilsoeSid]

I wonder how this new type of activity might slow down any plans of using 'drones' for police work. At a more basic level, all you'd really need is a control unit pushing out a stronger signal, as sometimes seen at r/c car tracks across the country !

US spy drone 'tricked' into Iran landing by GPS spoofing - Techworld.com (http://news.techworld.com/security/3325752/us-spy-drone-tricked-into-iran-landing-by-gps-spoofing/)

[Windle Poons]

NPAS is a good idea.










[Intentionally blank]










Needed to leave a bit of space after typing that. ;)

It certainly makes sense to have a national air service as there are undoubtedly economies of scale to be had, however...

Why did they not first consider having borderless tasking to assess what spare capacity there is within the existing fleet? For example, each region uses one air to ground channel for all forces within that region to request assistance from air support. All units monitor the channel both in the air and on the ground, and make an assessment as to who is best placed to deal, based on current location, commitment and availability. Any unit based near to the border with a neighbouring region also monitors the air to ground channel for that region. Compare deployments over a six month or so trial period, with the same six months of 'in area' deployment for the preceeding year. There are of course a number of practicalities to overcome, not least of which is access to CAD information, mapping etc, but I have no doubt that all ASUs have worked out of county before without access to detailed mapping and incident information.

After that trial bring together a team from finance/HR/policing/aviation (preferably with aviation experience extending beyond flying off to a holiday destination :eek:) to have a look at the implications of a national service. Starting with the legislative/operational reality of running a small airline over and above single aircraft operations, and then looking into all the other considerations, e.g. funding, HR, bases etc. After the initial study, come up with a plan for submission to the community for comment/consultation. Make a few changes based on practitioners experience and local knowledge and then come up with a final plan and implement it.

All a bit too late for that, after all we're a long way downstream with NPAS, but I don't personally think that the waterfall is just round the next bend, especially now that OD is at the helm. :) Should I add again to that? This can work, but probably only because those in the community will make it work, because they want to or have to.

Many comments have been made, both in general conversation and on this forum, about not having intelligence insulted by being told that this will be better. We all feel much like that. The government/public services have years of experience in telling us that less is more and that there are huge efficiency savings to be made, with a myriad of statistics to 'prove' it. I think hardly anyone, either practitioners or general public alike, believes the rhetoric; they just get on with it and make it work, figuring there is little they can do. You may win the odd battle, but in the long run you are unlikely to win the war once the political will (and I don't necessarily mean from polititians) is there to make something happen.

Within NPAS, there will be areas that receive a better service and reduced response times, but there will also be losers, and taken in the round the reduction in fleet is going to have a more detrimental effect than positive. I doubt very much that there was 30% excess capacity.

It may even be that NPAS will save forces money, but here's a thought. The cost savings of NPAS are becoming secondary (if they were ever primary) to the aim of nationalising a traditionally force based asset. As in, "Hey everyone, look at what we've managed to do with Air Support. What say we now have a look at Roads Policing, Firearms, Dogs, Public Order or even TPT? Hang on a minute, we could even look at police forces as a whole." :E

Whether the above is true or not, the success of NPAS will be very much dependant on who you are and what measure you use to quantify success. If you define it as a better service to the nation as a whole then I think the answer is no, but then again I'm not a politician.

Mmmmmm, I feel much better for that! :oh:

[Helinut]

Extreme care will need to be taken when assessing the changes due to NPAS. The effects of air support lie far beyond the parochial boundaries of air support past, present & future. It is my belief that air support has all sorts of positive impacts throughout the police and criminal justice system. Anyone trying to see what effect it has will need to look very widely. For example, if used well:

It makes prosecution cheaper, easier and more effective
It can have a massive multiplier effect on resources
It can save significant other resources by its effective use
It does things that otherwise could not be done at all
It even changes criminal behaviour for the better

We have never been very good at identifying exactly what its benefits are. It might be useful to try to do some of that.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thanks Helinut, you nailed it!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

OD gets the job. Thank god. At least 1 person in the project will know about air support.

[Thomas coupling]

Budgie: been on leave have we? OD got it weeks ago...

[jayteeto]

Don't kid yourself that Joe Public will catch on that the service is reduced. 'JP' doesnt give a monkeys as long as someone is telling them that their council tax bill might be reduced by these savings. The only people that know are in the police service and the only people that actually care are the operators themselves. Senior officers look for promotion........ promotion does not come if they rock the boat. To be honest, no one other than yourselves actually cares if the service is reduced or not.
Sorry to pee on the bonfire, but this is how it is.......

[jimbobawob]

Has anybody explored this piece of legislation that Nick Herbert claims to be going to use to enforce ‘co-operation’ from SYP?
It doesn’t even exist yet, as far as I can establish…

[Ivor E Tower]

Guess its this one...

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/13/section/89/enacted)


Police functions that must be the subject of force collaboration provision

(1)The Secretary of State may, by order, require a specified police function to be exercised in relation to—
(a)all police areas, or
(b)all police areas apart from any specified in the order,in accordance with police collaboration provision.
(2)An order under this section may specify whether the specified police function is required to be exercised in relation to the specified police areas in accordance with police collaboration provision contained in—
(a)a single collaboration agreement which relates to all of those police areas, or
(b)a number of collaboration agreements which, between them, relate to all of those police areas.
(3)Provision under subsection (2)(b) need not specify a particular number of collaboration agreements.
(4)A statutory instrument containing an order under this section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.
(5)If, but for this subsection, an instrument containing an order under this section would be treated for the purposes of the standing orders of either House of Parliament as a hybrid instrument, it is to proceed in that House as if it were not a hybrid instrument.
(6)In this section “specified” means specified in an order under this section.”.
(4)Schedule 12 (collaboration agreements) has effect.

[SilsoeSid]

Concerns over police helicopter (From Tivyside Advertiser) (http://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/9511477.Concerns_over_police_helicopter/)

Police watchdogs have raised concerns and are monitoring the situation closely after news that the Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter could be scrapped in 2014.



Just a couple of things, without the trip around the old hamster wheel.

Under the proposals Wales will be served from bases at Rhuddlan in Denbighshire and St. Athan in Glamorgan.
...and given the right time of day or serviceability/availability, from one of the CRASU units.
At 3 in the morning, I may well be able to get there, but apart from the fuel issue, spelling Aberystwyth could be a big problem.
Hows the crime rate in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch ?


But Dyfed Powys Police Authority is not convinced the proposals would be of benefit.
As with SY, it would seem that it makes not a jot what the authority thinks.

A live feed from the Home Office;
http://www.lolwtfcomics.com/upload/uploads/1316833800.gif

[morris1]

I see that s. yorks did a prime example of "borderless tasking" last night, exctracting lost walkers from Kinder Scout (in Derbyshire)...

It really does grip my s@@t when NPAS bang on about borderless tasking.
Yorkshire region have been doing it for about 14years with WYP,SYP, and Humbs ASU's being part of a mutual aid consortium. No money changing hands, no complicating protocols, just simple assistance being given across borders when one of the machines is AOG.

They (yorks consortium) really ought to step up to the mark with NPAS and tell them what is being sold to the public as "new and improved" is bo**ox. Its been happening up North for more than a decade quite succesfully.

Reinventing the bloody wheel (again).

[airpolice]

Sid, the locals call it Llanfair PG

[tigerfish]

Morris1.. You are correct in quoting your excellent example of cross force co-operation between ASU's.

My only slight critique is that what you describe is NOT all that unusual! I served for over 30 years in all aspects of operational policing but nowhere did I experience better examples of cross border policing, than from our own and surrounding ASU's.

Later when travelling around the country visiting nearly all of the country's ASU's, it was quite plain to me that the level of co-operation between units was constantly growing. It had become normal practice for one unit to cover their neighbour when an aircraft was off line for maintenance. The only times when this was not so forthcoming, happened when the neighbouring force had done nothing in the normal course of operational Policing, to avail themselves of air support when needed.

So there we have it. UK Police Aviation, as it stood, was an excellant example to the other sections of Police work, on how to do inter unit co-operation.

So how was it that the Hogan Howe report come to the conclusion that there was very little cross border assistance going on? - Well I'll tell you! - It was because the staff officer responsible for putting the report together, knew nothing about air support (probably deliberately) and ignored all offers of help in doing it. I know that to be true because I offered, - more than once.

It became a classic case of "Here's the conclusion, Now go away and write a report that covers it"

I submit, that that is why NPAS had such a bad start. It was flawed from the outset, there was only one aim, to save money. The provision of a properly resourced, properly commanded, and cost effective crime fighting body never featured in the equation. Now let me see, - what happened to the author? :mad:

tigerfish

[morris1]

No. Thats WAS my point.

Cross border work or "borderless tasking" as NPAS want to rebrand it, is indeed VERY common. Like i said, theyre re inventing the wheel.
But the one they came up with has corners on it..!

It makes my blood boil when I see the NPAS sales pitch, when they say borderless tasking will be the saviour of modern ASU work. Weve been doing it (better than NPAS propose) for a VERY long time already..:ugh:

[tigerfish]

morris1. We are both on the same tack! & I could not agree more!

TF

[Helinut]

Cross border ops for ASUs has been happening for years, with one or two units being a bit precious about their assets. Quite rightly sometimes money had to change hands. Generally though, where it involved 2 forces who had ASUs, it seems to be done on a quid pro quo basis. It will be a smoke and mirrors job if NPAS claim it was their invention.

[airpolice]

Perhaps the solution to all this cross border thing is to take the Scottish route to a single, countrywide, Police Force.

From next year, all the people of Scotland will be served by a Police service which has air support. No borders no problems.

No more assets though, so the travel time to most jobs in Aberdeen will make it unworkable, but the local polis will (on paper) have a helicopter, even in the Highlands & Islands.

The fact that it will STILL be in Weegietown makes things difficult, but at least the force boundary issue will have been resolved.;)

[Thomas coupling]

How many police helicopters in Scotland then? What a worthless piece of legislation by the Scottish parliament. Talk about ticks ion boxes, this is a joke:ugh:

[handysnaks]

TC try this end of the stick!!:rolleyes:

I believe that the Scottish Parliament are going for a Single Police Force for overall financial savings, not so that they can say they have a National Police Air Service.

[MightyGem]

all the people of Scotland will be served by a Police service which has air support
So, what's the transit time for the Strathclyde aircraft to get to Wick?

[airpolice]

MightyGem, I know it'll take all day, but that's not my fault. Wick will be in the dropdown list, just like everywhere else!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

MightyGem,

I'm sure that the amazing Andrew at Far North (Wick) will be delighted to offer the Scottish police heli some fuel on its way up to attend any major incident at the real top end of Scotland - a break-in at Muckle Flugga lighthouse, perhaps?

[Coconutty]

Police authority considers legal challenge over force helicopter - Main Section - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/police_authority_considers_legal_challenge_over_force_helico pter_1_4237632)

MEMBERS of a Yorkshire police authority are seeking legal advice over how to challenge Government plans which would force them to give up the right to run their own crime-fighting helicopter.

South Yorkshire Police Authority last year voted to reject Westminster plans for a National Police Air Service (NPAS), saying the arrangements would increase response times and lead to a worse service.

Under the scheme, the current dedicated South Yorkshire Police helicopter would be decommissioned, and aircraft serving Wakefield, North Lincolnshire and Derbyshire would cover the county.

Members of the authority said they would opt-out and keep their own service, but last month Policing Minister Nick Herbert said he intended to make an order forcing the idea through.

Now the authority, which meets next Friday, is set to reconsider its options, and will be told that lawyers have been consulted on the possibility of challenging Mr Herbert’s announcement.

In a report to the meeting, the authority’s chief executive Bill Wilkinson says: “The background to the proposed order is the proposal to create a national police air service which will offer potential savings to the police service rising to £15m per year, as well as a more consistent service across England and Wales.

“South Yorkshire Police Authority considered in detail the business case provided last year and whilst not against the principle of a national police air service, decided to retain the current air provision in South Yorkshire.

“At the same time a number of key concerns and questions were identified and clarification of these has been sought.

He added: “Legal advice has also been sought surrounding the authority’s options to challenge the Minister’s proposal to mandate South Yorkshire to participate in NPAS.”

After the September meeting – at which South Yorkshire Police Authority decided not to take part in the service – chairman Charles Perryman said members “had not been reassured” by NPAS representations and concerns over response times.

Mr Perryman added: “One of the things that influenced very strongly the authority was the response time that would result if the dedicated helicopter was not available.

“We would have to rely on helicopters based at Wakefield, Humberside Airport or Ripley, in Derbyshire and that would result in significant delay.

“Getting to a scene quickly is particularly important because when we are talking in terms of vehicle pursuits or criminals running away from crime scenes prompt attendance is significant.”

Mr Perryman said the authority had received a petition opposing the move to the NPAS arrangement which: “demonstrated the value members of the public place on the current service”.

NPAS said its scheme involved 22 air support bases at “strategic locations that provide the operational capability to deliver an enhanced service”.

In a document prepared for police authorities NPAS officers say: “NPAS will provide an air service to 97 per cent of the population of England and Wales in 20 minutes.

“It will deliver a more cost-effective service balancing the need to save money against the need to ensure the police service has a quickly deployable asset that can he used to tackle crime and protect the public.

“It is anticipated NPAS will save up to £15m a year from the current cost of air support when all forces join.”

West Yorkshire Police is thought to favour NPAS while Humberside and North Yorkshire Police are still considering their position.

Should be another interesting meeting tomorrow -
tune in here Police: SYJS Connect (http://www.southyorks.public-i.tv/core/portal/sypol) at 10:00 Hrs :ok:


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

SYPA still not happy or convinced by NPAS. Cllr McHale stating that a "23 minute response time was unacceptable". (He's not wrong). They've requested a further meeting.

[SilsoeSid]

Webcast available at Police: SYJS Connect (http://www.southyorks.public-i.tv/core/portal/sypol)
NPAS item 19 @ 01:08:20

Cllr John McHale;

'Chief Constables haven't the authority to agree to the NPAS model !!!'

[SilsoeSid]

Will police commissioners meekly submit to the sort of explicit and implicit controls Whitehall imposed on police authorities? The other week police minister Nick Herbert decreed that police forces had too many helicopters and would in future have to procure them under a Home Office mandate that could lead, for example, to regional flying squads, as it were.

What if Prescott or Tory Collins – an all but declared candidate for the Kent commissioner job – say they want their own helicopters, with the strong backing of their chief officers?

Yet this is what the Home Office ordained. Its officials are astounded that home secretary Theresa May and Nick Herbert have faced so little pushback from their political colleagues, inside or outside cabinet, despite the example of the NHS reforms and what can happen when ministers are allowed to plough their own furrows.

What if commissioners insist on more spending in order to deliver more value and can muster local political will? Ignoring the police authorities was easy, but telling Prescott he can't do this or that, when he will have been elected fair and square (and the turnout could be decent), poses large political risks – especially since Prescott's patch includes the constituency of David Davies, the Tory stickler for constitutional propriety.
Police elections: a constitutional issue | Public Leaders Network | Guardian Professional (http://www.guardian.co.uk/public-leaders-network/2012/feb/20/police-elections-friction-with-whitehall?newsfeed=true)

[Fly_For_Fun]

Are there any updates now that some of the key players have been in place for a little while now?

[Thomas coupling]

Rush, rush, for your information fly for fun, the balloons are up, cutlery on its way and cake organised. Seating plan by the end of Feb and guest list finalised mid March. Phew.
You can be sure they will be ready for 1st April though......unless of course the village hall is not available...

[Only joking OD :ok:].

[Coconutty]

Which 1st of April is that then ?

... and how many have RSVP'd to say they'll actually come to the party ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

The runaway train has not yet entered the station.

The driver has his hand on the tiller but I guess you may all find that nothing is going to happen as fast as you might want. The various dates have already been set for units to drop into or out of place and I expect that will be the form of things. The only really visible changes in the next year will be details such as the bases - Colerne and Dunsfold falling from favour - and the final removal from service of the ill-fated Cambridge airframe in a months time.

You can make your bids soon for that fine insulated million pound cow shed in Dyfed-Powys but there will be other, similar but better located, options available here and there.

Clearly nothing is set in the straight jacket of the October 2010 plans but it looks as if that outline plan will be visited for a period of retrenching before a relaunch to (slightly) bigger and better things that may ensure that the number of jobs lost will be minimised.

Patience is a virtue not prevalent in pprune.

[Vera City]

A question if I may, and yes I know this is a one-post account, but I have my reasons, which do not include being a police pilot or observer in the South East, because I am not. The information below is all classified IIRC, so if anyone knows better then please let me know. I personally am hoping that I'm misinformed.

If the NPIA get their way and manage to shoehorn the South East region into NPAS in October this year, the counties of Kent, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire will effectively be serviced by one aircraft. To my knowledge, the Met do not currently have the ability to assist with cover, either in terms of capacity, due to the level of tasking in London, or aircraft, as they have insufficient observers to crew two aircraft, except for planned events. Essex at best may be able to cover the northern parts of Kent, and Dorset the western parts of Hampshire, but effectively one aircraft for four counties.

In addition, NPAS's original proposal/decision that coverage would be 20 hours at all bases seems to have been quietly changed to 20 hour coverage across the bases. That means that early doors, and late knockings, cover across the region will drop from four to two aircraft. Potentially, and assuming they're at base location and not already busy elsewhere in a vast region, the nearest aircraft to Brighton could be at Benson or Southend!

So to the question...

Bearing in mind the above, why is the move of an MD902 to Redhill even being considered, let alone being put forward as the preferred option by the NPIA? This is only going to erode service to the police, from the National POLICE Air Service, even further.

Why? Well for one, it's fitted for HEMS, so that role (quite rightly) will take precedence over police tasking if there's is a conflict. That and the airframe is getting on a bit, it's got to be due for renewal before long, and like MD902s everywhere it spends a lot of time in servicing, planned and unplanned. Also, I thought it was NPAS's intention to have a single make fleet, or has that quietly changed too?

Sadly, I know the answer to my own question as to why this is happening. It's for the same reason that they're trying to move the date for the South East's inclusion in NPAS forward...money. If they move this year, and take the money, and paramedics, from SECAMBS (South East Coast Ambulance Service), then the savings in year one are going to look better. Pats on backs and lack of egg on face all round I'm sure. Surely this is short term gain/PR for long term loss? Or is it because they're worried that removal of a little utilised night HEMS capability could leave them open to legal action and/or bad press if they remove it?

I believe that some, probably many, of the air ambulance trusts have the funds for 24 hour, or extended, ops and are seeking CAA approval to do so. When SECAMB pull out, which they undoubtedly will at some point, for this reason or due to financial constraints, this will leave an aircraft fitted for HEMS fulfilling a police role. This will mean a need to recruit observers to replace paramedics, and as it would make sense to replace it with an EC135 at that point, would mean retraining pilots and crews.

We know it's going to happen, but for the love of [insert deity of your choice] please have some common sense when making decisions. Actually, can we have some decision please.

Here's a plan...keep the 902 at Shoreham and fly it as a night only HEMS, using the money from SECAMBS to fund it. Move a 135 to Redhill and have the police air service as just that, a police service.

Coming soon to a region near you.

Never Policing Always Scrimping

[/rant]
Regards,
Vera

[zorab64]

Vera, you may have some bits right, either by assumption or knowledge, but there could be merit in some "filling-in".

Whilst the proposal may be to put the South East region together, this actually includes the remaining aircraft in East Anglia, namely the current Essex & Suffolk machines, as well as Benson and (for the moment) Henlow. Essex have been policing the whole of Kent from the air since early 2008, as I understand it, with backup from Suffolk or Cambridge when the Essex aircraft is unavailable. The new, even-more-borderless proposal is that whichever aircraft is closest should attend, so you may find the current Sussex or Hants machine attending Southern or Western Kent.

I also understand that the Southend option would appear to be off the cards for the moment, so Kent would continue to be serviced from the current Essex base, or I believe there's also a base at Rochester.

I'm a little unsure where you got the impression that NPAS was planning to become a one-type fleet, as it's not been in anything I've seen. The original plan, as I understood it, was to have a couple of 135 spares & one 902, to cover the country. The co-ordination of that will be fun, whatever happens, & those without either type will have to haul in assistance from elsewhere, I imagine!!

[SilsoeSid]

Must be around the time to dig this one out again.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/arthurdaleypilots.jpg

[helihub]

Notwithstanding the politics of it all, here's my take on those options
- Shoreham - never been a logical location being on the border of the county it serves with only sea beyond, but really the only Sussex airfield anywhere near the centre of the region it currently serves. The weather impact of the South Downs has always made me wonder too.
- Redhill - too far north? Would it's then closeness to London may be creating a future requirement for taking one Met machine out after the Olympics are behind us.?
- Dunsfold - geographically, this looks to be the best location to serve Hampshire and Kent from. Why has it been sidelined?

BUT... How similar is the Sussex situation to Wiltshire? In Wiltshire they have a dilemma because the Police have a contract to serve the Wiltshire Ambulance until some date in 2014 or 2015 with big financial penalties if they don't. Does this scenario arise in Sussex too?

On the airframe hours comment, the Sussex machine is a mere babe with the CAA website showing it with 6656 hours at Dec09 when it was 10 years old. At the same date the world #1 high time aircraft in West Yorkshire had flown 11487 hours in one year less.

And dare I ask why the Sussex Police Explorer needs to do EMS work today when there are Explorers at Marden (Kent) and at Dunsfold (for Surrey and Sussex) dedicated to that task?

[Brilliant Stuff]

I believe Dunsfold is out due to the Nimbys.

I also hear the aircraft in the Northwest are burning their hours off quicker than planned.....

[KK]

Vera city. I really dont know where you get your facts from. We operate a 902 here and I have kept stats for the past two years. Our down time accounts for about 4% of the time. We constantly hit 96% to 99% monthly avaliability. Maybe you are taking weather into account as well!!!

[Fly_For_Fun]

It would be interesting to see the results of a freedom of information request asking about serviceability and down time due to maintenance for 902s and 135s. The East Anglia consortium operates both types and they are both maintained by the ECPM so that may be a good place to start and with quite a level playing field.

P.S. Rather than looking at this monthly a more reliable statistic would be over the financial year as a whole.

[wallsend]

KK - very well put about "Vera City" and his nonsense about 902 serviceabilty.

***I suspect an old troll in a new disguise!!!
(the tell-tale sign will be if he starts wittering on about PAS and CPAS being run by the anti-christ!);)

[ShyTorque]

South Yorkshire Police are obviously still very keen to keep their own helicopter. According to the news a couple of days ago they are now considering paying their (involuntary) subscription to NPAS and still finding the money to retain what they have! :ok:

The Sheffield locals are very unhappy about the thought of losing their eye in the sky. How good to hear that, not many years ago everyone was against the thought of police aviation. The ASUs do obviously earn their keep in the eyes of the general public. Good luck to them, hope this works out for the best ;)

[SilsoeSid]

Have the salesmen been around?


The workhorse
Although helicopters might make headlines and capture the glory, their fixed-wing cousins might just be content being a little older and perhaps wiser. Doing the airborne law enforcement missions quietly and effectively: airplanes, the workhorses of airborne law enforcement.
Fixed Wing Aircraft in Law Enforcement (http://www.lawofficer.com/article/patrol/fixed-wing-aircraft-law-enforc)

In the words of a candidate on The Apprentice ... 'How many can I put you down for ?'

http://www.tecnam.com/Themes/WebSite/page/flotta/MMA/foto_pagina_MMA.jpg

Tecnam MMA (Multi Mission Aircraft) - Costruzioni Aeronautiche Tecnam (http://www.tecnam.com/it-IT/flotta/MMA/MMA.aspx)
http://www.tecnam.com/Flotta/MMA/Specification/MMA_Specification.pdf

[SilsoeSid]

I'll put you down for half a dozen then!

;)

[PANews]

To enhance the credence of the words somewhat, that promotional piece for fixed wing was written by former Lt Ken Solosky who was latterly the Chief Pilot of the all helicopter New York PD operation and then, in 'retirement', Chief Pilot of the Newark NJ helicopter operation.

So I would guess that he saw something missing from his arsenal ...... that fixed wing might fill.

Solosky gets about a bit and mixes it at conferences where NPAS also appear - so in answer to your question, yes, [certain elements of] NPAS are aware of the cost effectiveness of fixed wing based on access to the experiences of others at Networking events like 'law enforcement' aviation conferences.

There are a number of these occurring throughout the year and many of them are free to enter for ALE personnel so for NPAS they may be seen as a good investment in the future.

As the French Gendarmerie aviators may say about such things ......Bon!

[morris1]

South Yorkshire Police are obviously still very keen to keep their own helicopter. According to the news a couple of days ago they are now considering paying their (involuntary) subscription to NPAS and still finding the money to retain what they have!

Strikes me as amazing that the public and politicians are being sold this..
Looking at the costs involved

http://meetings.southyorks.gov.uk/mgConvert2Pdf.aspx?ID=2928&T=9&zTS=A

They appear to be seriously considering the "option 3".. whereby they operate 10 hours per day 7 days a week..

The cost 1.686 million per year..

Current cost of running their own unit (INCLUDING MAINTENANCE..!)

cost 1.68 million per year.... :}

So for an increase in costs, they will lose use of their own a/c for half the period they run now.
Lose their maintenance section
Lose half their Observers
Lose half their Pilots
Lose a manager

Oh.. but cover for the rest of the period will come from NPAS.. so thats ok then..

Ah.. but only 700 hours per year INCLUDING travelling time of the "visiting" a/c.

Tell me again. Whats the advantage of doing this..?

:ugh:

[fox5]

So in a quiet moment i had a look at this response time thing with south yorks and tried to reverse engineer the maths..
I put them in a spread sheet and added the SPEED column...
Is the 902 at South Yorks particularly slow..??
Because everyone seems to be quicker than them..?



Tabs removed: you will have to put it in a format that doesn't scroll across 2 feet of the page!

SP

[Coconutty]

fox5,

While you're doing the Maths, could you help out by factoring in a very basic
and fundamental principle that NPAS seem to have omitted :

NPAS have published maps depicting their now infamous "20 minute" range circles,
that indicate the proposed coverage under their 20 Base plan.

These maps appear to have been used to persuade Chief Constables and Police Authorities around the UK,
that they will receive a service that is more effective and will costs less.

The point has been raised previously elsewhere, and to my knowledge has not been contradicted,
( so I can only assume it is correct ), which is that the 20 minute circles
have been calculated incorrectly on the assumption that the aircraft
is travelling at a constant speed throughout the journey - from skids off to arrival,
( did they use 120 Kts or 120 MPH ? - The Circles seem to represent about 30 miles radius ),
when in reality of course, unless deploying while already at Transit speed and directly overhead the Base,
the aircraft starts from Base at 0 Kts, will have varying departure profiles depending on wind speed and direction,
and other factors that may preclude departing directly on track, BEFORE accelerating up to Transit Speed,
and then slowing down again as the target location is reached.

This basic principle means that the published 20 minute circles,
on which decisions as to whether to sign up to NPAS or not are being made,
may be WRONG and that the actual area that can be covered in 20 minutes is LESS.

( Of course it is accepted that there are times when aircraft WILL already be airborne
and on such occasions deployment times may be shorter, but generally most deployments are made from Base ).

The attached NPAS coverage map ( from the Public Domain ) illustrates the point nicely,
as there are also some "15 minute" circles - which in my very humble and unsupported opinion,
are probably more realistic of the area that COULD be covered in 20 minutes,
especially when taking into account that those 15 minute circles
have probably also been calculated with the same flawed mathematical assumption of constant aircraft speed.

So, all that needs to be factored in AFTER the above, is an examination of the time taken under existing practices -
from from when a person ( such as a PC ) at the scene of an incident requests Air Support,
to the time that the request reaches the ASU staff and a decision is made to deploy,
compared with the time taken to achieve this under any NPAS deployment plan, such as via a Regional or National Control Room,
with any additional time taken reducing the "20 minute" circles, and thus reducing effective coverage, even further.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/NPASBaseMap.jpg


A few Purple patches in there amongst the 15 minute circles :\

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

Cocochap,
I think you will find that the "20 minute" circles were actually based, not on any aviation or mathematical formula, but on an item of crockery :\.
Even from the point we walk/run out of the door, we cannot make Sheffield in the NPAS advertised time - even with a favourable wind.
You cannot change the laws of physics :=

[Coconutty]

the "20 minute" circles were actually based, not on any aviation or mathematical formula, but on an item of crockery

.. I bet the thickness of the crayons used wasn't factored in either :8

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[fox5]

My table was removed by moderator..!

The speeds are all over the place when multiplied out.

But the SYP explorer only gets above 100kts on one item of data.
On quite a few it's only travelling at 60kts or so. While the NPAS a/c according to their figures are all travelling at over 100kts, and quite often 120kts or more. Hence the question about whether the 902 is slower than the NPAS a/c. ?
I'll try and re tabulate the data so it can be displayed.

[SilsoeSid]

Interesting to note the 'uncovered' high crime rate city just to the north and west of map centre.
How can the CC of that city's force be happy enough to sign up to a plan that sees the biggest city on his patch being on the outer edges of the cover provided by 5 different units?


By the way when do we see the updated map with a few more green circles on it? ;)
When it appears in public, I take it that with taxi times/ATC/movements etc, the timing circles will be based from 'Top of Climb'.

[fox5]

I'll try another way..

SYP WYP HUMPOL DERBY
These figures are the multiplied out speeds for the various a/c from the NPAS chart.
ie distance (NMs.?) divided by time (minutes) mulitplied by 60 to give knotts or MPH depending on what NPAS used.
.
AVERAGE A/C SPEEDS
sheffield...... SYP... 61........WYP .....114.... HUMB.... 125.... DERBS.... 113
darnall........ SYP..... 31.......WYP.... 115......HUMB ....125....DERBY.....112
heeley..........SYP......65.......WYP.....116.....HUMB...... 127....DERBY.....115
fox house.....SYP......78.......WYP.....115.....HUMB......127... .DERBY.....114
ecclesfield....SYP......74........WYP....112.....HUMB......1 26....DERBY.....118
orgreave.......SYP.....43........WYP....115.....HUMB.......1 27...DERBY.....116
rotherham.....SYP.....52........WYP....113.....HUMB.......12 6....DERBY....118
doncaster......SYP....101.......WYP....115.....HUMB.......12 2....DERBY....123
barnsley........SYP....100.......WYP......96.....HUMB....... 127....DERBY.....121

sorry about the rubbish formatting but its te best i could do for now..
If i figure out how to do it ill put the full chart on..

So I just wondered why the SYP aircraft is so slow, when the humberside a/c is very fast..?

[jimbobawob]

Ahh, the magic 20 minute circle theory...
Fox 5 I think you've cracked the secret code. The NPAS created chart has at last been decoded, the numbers are all made up (by NPAS to prove their argument) ;):ugh::ugh:;)

[morris1]

So why is the SYP explorer unable to go faster than 100kts, even on a transit between sheffield and Doncaster. ?
Is it uphill ??

[ALFIE15]

Is there any truth in the rumour that the bean counter's in the MET are going to slash their specialist services post Olympics to save money. This may include the removal of one of their aircraft. This surely will have grave consequences on the NPAS model as they are supposed to fill in lot's of gaps around them. (This rumour did come from another MET specialist unit not the ASU).

[ALFIE15]

http://www.pimaair.org/images/collection/Pentecost_E_III_Hoppicopter_MG_2035_a.jpg

I think this will be the only way NPAS will make any saving's ;)

[Helinut]

If the Met ASU does get absorbed into NPAS, it would be very interesting to see what would happen. The Met has some very specific but unusual deployment priority criteria, certainly when compared with other ASUs. They also have an already established system to cope well with a massive number of jobs suitable for ASU tasking. They also already fly over 3,000 hours per year (between 3 aircraft), so there is not much slack to be taken up on other force tasking.

It will be interesting to see who prevails: my money would be the "comfort blanket" for the senior officers managing the high profile events.

The Met though is very different from other ASUs. They already have an really effective dedicated control room facility and in-house engineering on their solo type. It will be very expensive to absorb into whatever NPAS ends up doing. Almost inevitably less effective IMO. Worse for the Met and not much availability for other forces.

In the end it may well depend upon how the senior bods in the MET approach things. The Commissioner when CC for Merseyside appeared to have been happy to lose his helicopter, without much pressure. And I believe he was the ACPO lead for air support at the time.

[Brilliant Stuff]

20minute circles based on crockery add to that the time delay built in by the call handler who answers the 999 call then passes this over to the controller who then passes it again on to the NPAS dispatch cell who then choos which aircraft to task who then need a minimum of two minutes to leave the office and start the aircraft and take off.......

Oh and the MET only ever have access to 1.5 aircraft for the simple fact the other bits are in for maintenance. So that map needs to reflect this. IMHO.

And back down the bunker for me.

[Coconutty]

So....

In that well publicised South Yorkshire Police Authority meeting, the one where they decided not to join NPAS,I'm sure I heard the NPAS representative telling them that under NPAS there will be a fleet of different aircraft, such as 135,s 145,s and Fixed Wings available for deployment to any NPAS member, when there is an identified need for one of them.

That might not actually be true then ? :eek: :rolleyes: :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[ALFIE15]

Heard today that NPAS currently deep in the red and if it was a PLC the administrator's would be running it. When are government projects going to learn their lessons. This smacks of a mini Nimrod programme, driven hard and fast and nobody having the sense to say "STOP this is not working how we thought and the savings are minimal for the lose of service".:ugh:
At least Mr Herbert get's to keep his helicopter in his constiuency, sorry should not be cynical after all it is all for the greater good NPAS
Not Providing A Service ;)

[morris1]

At least Mr Herbert get's to keep his helicopter in his constiuency

His mate Mr Windsor is earning 300 quid per day for coming up with his guff..
(plus the other 300 per day for his mate from the same law firm)

[Ivor E Tower]

"At least Mr Herbert get's to keep his helicopter in his constiuency"

Is he, are you sure?

Nick Herbert - for Arundel and South Downs (http://www.nickherbert.com/)

I think you will find it is relocating to Redhill

[ALFIE15]

Sorry Ivor E Tower, you are correct it is just outside his constiuency boundary but all within 10 mins flying time.:ugh:

Latest rumour it may not be the 902 going to Redhill now but a 135, somebody must have banged their head and come up with the corrct decsion.;)

[zorab64]

Has anyone wondered whether the writers of 2012 (Hugh Bonneville trying to organise the Olympics) had picked up any of their material from an NPAS meeting?? ;)

[Coconutty]

Has anyone wondered whether the writer of the "Winsor Review into Police Pay & Conditions" ( now publicly available ) has an alterior motive ?

In his submissions, the role of Police Air Observer is not a qualifying "Specialist Role", and the current maximum pay point for Police Officers would not be available to Air Support Officers, effectively meaning that the maximum pay for that role would be £5487.00 LESS than it is now ( not to mention the additional £1122 CRTP payment made to those that have been at the top of the pay scale for 12 months and have demonstrated competency in their role ).

It's not clear what would happen to those in post now as to whether they would suffer a hefty pay cut ( one would hope not ), but how does Mr. Winsor envisage recruiting Police Officers into that "Non Specialist" role, when the prospects for pay progression are so poor, compared with some of the other roles that do qualify as "Specialist", such as Traffic Officers, Complaints & Discipline Officers, Custody Officers, Community Safety Officers etc etc ......

I'm sure there are a LOT of highly skilled Police Observers ( who have had to pass rigorous selection procedures, received intial training to natioal and local standards, and are required to maintain and demonstrate their competencies in the role annually by way of "Line Checks") who will feel insulted that they are not considered to have Specialist Skills, and will no doubt be raising the issue as a matter of urgency with their Police Federation representatives, to canvass for their role to be included as a Specialist skill, and be appropriately rewarded for the work they do.

Or are they all going to be booted out under NPAS and be replaced by Civilian Staff :rolleyes: ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

I reckon someone has pointed out that Police Observers are still classed as passengers and realised there were savings to be had.
Maybe it just goes to show that despite 25+ years of Police Air Support, those on high still have little idea of what it's all about :rolleyes:

[cyclic stop]

That’s why on our unit Police Observers are called Tactical flight officers :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

That’s why on our unit Police Observers are called Tactical flight officers :ok:

Lovely, a few/lot/most units do, but they are still "passengers" :rolleyes:

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.
W.S.

[Helinut]

It is not about fairness or about objective measures of worth. It is about saving money.

[Thomas coupling]

So it seems that Yorkshire have to make a decision this week as to whether they will host NPAS. Or shall I rephrase that:
The Home Office insists that S Yorks makes their play by the end of this week.
[Otherwise "Hogan Howdie stranger" will remove said upstarts from starting blocks and do it himself in the Met].

It's all coming to a head as the deadline looms and the AOC is still in the minds of those who can make it work. Busy busy.........................

[Brilliant Stuff]

Correct me if I am wrong but don't you need a Police officer on board the aircraft in order to call it a Police helicopter ??

[Blind Pugh]

Stand corrected, you are wrong, CAP612 refers.

[jayteeto]

Csi vehicles are marked police andl only have police staff on board

[Gas Generator]

Police Air Support: The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012 - WMS | Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/parliamentary-business/written-ministerial-statement/police-air-support-order/)

Does this mean that The Minister of State for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert) can force a constabulary to host NPAS?

IF a force as big as W Yorks turn down the chance to host NPAS - who will then look at NPAS as being a viable proposition? I can only think of one force, has TC hit the nail on the head?

:confused:

[Coconutty]

don't you need a Police officer on board the aircraft in order to call it a Police helicopter ?? 26th Mar 2012 20:04Not in the "Non Police Air Service" you don't :oh:

Good job too because if those Police Reforms go ahead,
there won't be any Police Officers prepared to take the £6k+ pay cut to do the job !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[cyclic stop]

Nick Herbert and Alex Marshall must be on another planet if they think what they have put forward is true :ugh::ugh:



On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following:

It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year – in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.
97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time.
It will also save the police service £15m per year when fully operational.

[Coconutty]

Still banging the same old drum which might have sounded good originally,
and who wouldn'l agree to such a fantastic plan, BUT :


t will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year – in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.

This can / has been / is being done NOW without NPAS !

97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time.

Figures unproved / unreliable, and DO NOT mean 97 per cent of the population will get Air Supoort within 20 minutes for "24 hours a day, 365 days a year".

It will also save the police service £15m per year

Really ? <yawn> - Isn't that just the cost of the scrapped / doomed aircraft removed under the NPAS plan ? Oh and :

..... when fully operational.

.... that's around 2018 isn't it ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Good job too because if those Police Reforms go ahead, there won't be any Police Officers prepared to take the £6k+ pay cut to do the job !


That pay cut is getting greater and greater everytime it is mentioned on a different site. Aren't the new scales showing a difference of £5487 between 6&7? Certainly not "£6k+"

As it is recognised in the report, it would be interesting to see how many Police Officer Observers have actually used their warranted powers while on duty as a rostered observer! ;)

[Coconutty]

Sid - Spot on - the proposed scales do indeed show a difference of £5487, between points 6 & 7,
but unsurprisingly, they don't take into account that a PC on the top of the scale now, ( Point 7 of the proposed scale )
that has been there for 12 months or more, may also be in receipt of "Competency Related Threshold Payment"
( CRTP ) of £1212 a year, bringing the total potential difference to £6699 :\

( Figures edited from initial post - CRTP is not £1122 a year - it's £1212 a year ! )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Has it been said that CRTP will go?

After hearing the phrase 'best job in the force' about 4 times today, I would be interested to hear how much the choice of staying on an air unit is worth, against going back on the streets.

[Thomas coupling]

If this pay review for ASU observers goes ahead and they don't become eligible for it, what pay scale does that put a new police observer on?
And won't this bring the salary dangerously close to a civvy tantalising package?

If this whole episode isn't handled correctly an ASU could theoretically end up with civvy Obs and low paid contract pilots...mmmmmm now where is that SMS powerpoint? :oh:

[Art of flight]

Don't think it will matter who pilots/crews/passengers in the aircraft at any wage if thay can't be in the right place at the right time. 2 aircraft to cover 8000 sq miles (nautical) just cannot be 20 minutes from everywhere when both get drawn to the busy corner of the area early in the shift. Inevitably the next request is from the county now furthest away who understandably are pretty upset to find that we're 45 minutes flying time away and need to add 20 minutes to that to get to base for fuel because everyone else has closed.

Which force is going to pay for that sort of response?

[cyclic stop]

Looking at stats. If an Aircraft is not in the area within 10 min's of the job coming in, its a waist of flying time. So 45 min's will really work for NPAS :D

[morris1]

Too much credence is put on "warranted powers".
It's the tool the police uses to cut jobs when it wants.
Warranted powers are only ever referring to actual arrests. So under that logic you could chop almost every detective constable in the force, virtually every sergeant, and definitely every inspector and above....

[PANews]

As the witching hour draws near it has been pointed out to me that MAGPAS the 'ride-along' medics who fly with Cambridgeshire Police are expecting a new mount.

According to the Hunts Press website of the 28th 'The emergency medical charity is expecting the delivery will happen next week and until then a Royal Air Force (RAF) search and rescue helicopter will pick up Helimedix teams from the RAF Wyton based and fly them to the scene of an emergency.'

Last I heard of MAGPAS they were claiming to be skint..... :confused:

[Art of flight]

Would be very good if Magpas keep the real estate and fuel facility going at Wyton, perhaps NPAS could come to some sort of arrangement (like the facility at Rochester).

[SilsoeSid]

16:30 Friday 30th March
Any news of a host force yet ?

[timex]

No one will be answering the phone today, don't want to catch that fastball!

[handysnaks]

Maybe this answers that question! (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/wypa/latest-news/west-yorkshire-approved-lead-force-national-police-air-service-30-mar-2012)

[SilsoeSid]

This is easier ;)


West Yorkshire Approved as Lead Force for National Police Air Service (30 Mar 2012)

West Yorkshire Police Authority today approved a proposal subject to certain conditions, for the Force to host the new National Police Air Service (NPAS), serving the whole of England and Wales.

The agreement, at today’s Police Authority meeting, brings NPAS plans a step closer and would mean all police air support operations being co-ordinated by West Yorkshire.

NPAS is set to become operational later this year, replacing the individual arrangements which currently exist in forces across England and Wales. It is expected that a co-ordinated service will improve operational effectiveness and generate savings for all participating forces through procurement, innovation and rationalisation of the current operating model.

West Yorkshire will become responsible for air operational assets belonging to forces and authorities across England and Wales, including employment of staff.

The Chair of West Yorkshire Police Authority, Councillor Mark Burns-Williamson OBE commented on the decision, saying “The information presented to us today convinced members of the merits of agreeing to West Yorkshire Police being put forward as the lead force for the National Police Air Service.

“This is clearly an ambitious and complex project with big implications for us going forward, but we recognised that West Yorkshire Police is well placed to deliver this service on behalf of all forces in England and Wales ahead of the closure of the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) later this year.

“We have been reassured that there will be no adverse impact upon the force or council tax payers in West Yorkshire. The funding, risks and liabilities for NPAS will be covered by a National Collaboration Agreement, which all participating forces and authorities will sign up to.

“Our approval today is subject to full costings being obtained and an assurance from the Chief Constable that all foreseeable risks are properly identified and mitigated, in discussions with the Home Office and others, so that there should be no adverse impact on West Yorkshire.”

[morris1]

Well that'll be curtains for south yorks then now that best yorkshire have taken the plunge..!
They won't take kindly to inferior neighbours trying to spoil the party..

[Coconutty]

..... Yorkshire airlines ? :p

Rm6VC5gdaFA

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[kuntynuty]

Well I for one think that this is about costs, and to be honest I may not be a tory lover I do think that the public sector needs trimming, NPAS may be the step in the right direction, for one I may get a job flying the helicopters and two I have a feeling that policemen are trying to protect their own nice little numbers, why should it be a pc in the helicopter? I think that reducing the pay will put police officers off this post and get more back on the street where they belong, there are plenty of civilians who could do this job just fine, the CCTV operators in city centres etc can do a good job on a camera so with little training they would be fine I am sure. Lets get more feet on the beat :ok:

[kuntynuty]

I say this because I dont think it would be hard to train someone who is not a policeman to do this role, maybe retired policemen who have worked in the helicopter? I just feel that this job is no more difficult than many others and civilians do those very well. I think the time is right for this change?

[timex]

Based on what knowledge?

Troll alert methinks...

[Brilliant Stuff]

I second that

[Aerodynamik]

PMSL.......:D

[morris1]

Well to be fair we don't need half as many cops as we have. In fact ANY.

My next business venture is to set up a company that does town centre public order patrol during weekends when it's busy.
I'm going to employ a load of ex bouncers and hard b*****ds. We will do all the stuff the cops do now in the town. Stand on street corners, split up fights, throw drunks out of pubs. If anyone needs arresting we can use civilian powers of detention until some cops turn up, and we will just give a statement later. Bish bosh job done and it will be LOADS cheaper.
We can probably employ a few ex cops too. They'll be plenty looking for jobs soon.
You don't need cops to that job. Bouncers been doing it for years.

Now. What's next. CID. Bugger, they've already civilianised a lot of that..!

[Thomas coupling]

Aah, sweet posting by kuntynuty (Senior Pilot - I do protest at the semi cloaking of this handle ##**)

Kunty: I think your age and number of posts are the wrong way round sweetheart XXX:D

[mickjoebill]

As someone who has made docs about police airwings could I give my perspective of the craft and experience that would be useful for non policemen to learn the job of Police air observer;
+500hrs flying as a crew member.
Knowledge of ground and aerial police tactical responses
Knowledge of local police resources
Local knowledge
Street smarts and common sense
Experience in aerial video/FLIR gimbals
Ability to verbalise (the scene) and direct others via radio.
Experience working under pressure whilst communicating to others.
Team player
Understanding/reading /predicting criminal behavior & public disorder


I know of many TV news cameramen who score seven out of the above ten, including having a good understanding of how specialist police resources are managed from the air (ie dog squads).

I suggest that very few can move straight into the role without cockups.
I was onboard a police machine (making TV doc) once at night searching for a suspect, the newish police observer used FLIR to direct police ground resources to a pile of steaming compost.
Another night flight an observer was adamant we were heading in the wrong direction as he was using FLIR for navigation and had pointed the FLIR at the wrong cooling tower.

No question that it is a tricky job, where x number of flight hours doing the job can only go so far, after that it is the fundamental abilities that make a good air observer...
natural situational awareness
navigational skills
ability to verbalise the picture and communicate via radio
ability to multi task


Surely these are the fundamental skill set, woven into ones genes (and also relevant to numerous other occupations) that count the most, whereas the understanding of; tactical application of police resources, criminal behavior and reading the situation on the ground can be taught and experienced on the job?




Mickjoebill

[SilsoeSid]

West Yorkshire will become responsible for air operational assets belonging to forces and authorities across England and Wales, including employment of staff.

The Chair of West Yorkshire Police Authority, Councillor Mark Burns-Williamson OBE commented on the decision, saying “The information presented to us today convinced members of the merits of agreeing to West Yorkshire Police being put forward as the lead force for the National Police Air Service.

“We have been reassured that there will be no adverse impact upon the force or council tax payers in West Yorkshire. The funding, risks and liabilities for NPAS will be covered by a National Collaboration Agreement, which all participating forces and authorities will sign up to.

“Our approval today is subject to full costings being obtained and an assurance from the Chief Constable that all foreseeable risks are properly identified and mitigated, in discussions with the Home Office and others, so that there should be no adverse impact on West Yorkshire.

So really, all we have is another 'In Principle' sign up. :rolleyes:

My current thoughts though concern the first paragraphs' 'employment of staff' statement.
Am I correct in thinking that West Yorks do not employ their own pilots? If that is correct, they will soon find themselves employing a shedful of pilots, non of whom are from their own (at present) ASU. What happens further down the line? Will there be a complete all pilot contract tender put out to private sector (£$£$) companies or have West Yorks now effectively been forced into employing pilots as their own Police Staff ? Not so much a financial burden for West Yorks, but an admin nightmare looms.
Have West Yorks looked into direct employment previously and if so, why didn't they go for it?

If in the near future NPAS decide to close down another base or 2, the pilots of which are employed by West Yorkshire, I wonder if they would replace some contracted pilots positions with their own staff. Blimey!
If not, a possible headline could be; "West Yorkshire Police make staff redundant while preserving private sector jobs".


Good for NPAS, it's all potentially in the hands of West Yorkshire now :eek:
:handwash smilie:

[Art of flight]

Spot on Sid, a list of get out clauses more than anything positive. So now they need a collaborative agreement to be signed by ALL forces to mitigate against any financial losses in the future! How long will it take to get all the forces to do the homework and sign that document?

RIP Cambridgeshire, 15 years loyal service, a pleasure to have flown with you guys.

[morris1]

To my knowledge West Yorks dont employ pilots and they dont do any engineering..!! (theyre with PAS as far as i know.)

Which all in all makes all seem a bit of a step into the unknown :}

Overnight going from maintaining zero aircraft, to twenty odd..!!

[kuntynuty]

Kunty: I think your age and number of posts are the wrong way round sweetheart

No its right first time, sorry to deflate your ego:{
It does seem that this thread should be re titled protectionism of our nice little numbers.... I guess as a private sector person paying the fat pensions I should have known better...
I was just thinking outloud for the decent over taxed tax payer!:ok:

"West Yorkshire Police make staff redundant while preserving private sector jobs".



Surely it is only fair that private sector people get the chance to work in these roles as they are and have been supporting the public sector with their taxes?:D

[SilsoeSid]

I suppose you have a point KK. :rolleyes:

Civilianise the observer posts, so that all crew members are civis. You can contract the pilot and observer posts out, so ultimately they all get paid less, yet NPAS will pay the private company more for the pleasure.
Make all observers ex policemen or military so they have a pension to top up their income and all will be rosy.

I guess that by your thinking, having the extra private sector workers paying the extra income tax will offset the extra cost to the public sector for the private company contracts. Oh hang on, less wage, less income tax payment! :ugh:

KK, is it true that when you are asked the time you forget your name?
How on Earth do you think you could do what is required of a police observer, unless of course your name is Mr Windsor :suspect:

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks JAFO, why oh why is something as important as 'the report' trusted to someone that can't even spell his own name correctly :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

Silsoe - sorry I'm playing catch up here: are you insinuating that kunt(y) is part of the machinery??? Have I missed something (telling the time etc?)

[Gas Generator]

SO, we have some interesting problems occurring very soon:

As I see it the pilots working for WY (PAS) will be on a higher rate than most directly employed police pilots. Under TUPE all pilots have the choice of going over on their present contract rates (salary + company car + health care +?) or accepting the new host rates? West Yorks are going to be presented with a real mess of a salary pot. Over a hundred pilots on different rates? A huge range of salaries for people doing the same thing! So where do they go from there?

I agree with SS, the real agenda here is to privatise police aviation. It is a decision the police will come to regret as they will lose all control over these resources and, when they expect a helicopter in minutes and it turns up after a multiple of minutes because of the upcoming centralised 'delay and dispatch' system, they will not be happy with the service -they will not get the results they have been getting and expecting. Those CC's will be under pressure from their new Crime Commissioners to get results - that will go up the ladder to NPAS....ouch.

From a purely selfish point of view I cannot wait to be integrated into a 'blue light' company running Police, SAR and Air Ambulance - the salaries of UK SAR pilots are well above those on police pay, and, no pressure - you just turn up eventually once the command system has given you the task. It's going to be a doodle, especially for observers, all the logs will state - 'nothing found returned to base'.

It just so happens that Winsor is going to help this by making it so unattractive for police officers to transfer that you will end up with NO observers whatsoever! Especially with the projected personal losses of these 'office workers'..And with the possibility of strikes coming up this is all going to be really, really messy.
:{

[Vera City]

Kuntynuty

I would be interested to know a few things about you old chap...and by the way I am not a police officer, I'm just a decent over taxed tax payer.

1. As a decent over taxed tax payer, how much do you pay into your pension? I think you'll find that police officers pay around 11% of their salary into theirs.

2. As a decent over taxed tax payer, what would you do if you were told you were having a compulsory pay cut of over 15%, having your pension contribution increased from 11% to 14% and that you were going to have your retirement age increased by 5 years? Oh and there's nothing you can do about it, like strike. Police officers have a much reduced life expectancy over decent over taxed tax payers, around 10-12 years IIRC due to shift work and difficulty of the role into older years and of course can't strike.

3. As a decent over taxed tax payer, how would you feel if all your other public services were changed, so that they were staffed by lower paid, less well trained and ineffective staff?

4. As a decent over taxed tax payer, how hard is it to carry that massive chip on your shoulder.

You have wonderfully displayed both your ignorance and prejudice to all the other decent over taxed tax payers, which you seem to forget as a group also includes all the police officer you refer to. Funny thing is they almost certainly pay more tax and work harder than you. Thanks for the contribution, it gave me a good chuckle today.

VC

PS. Reference my last post and the accusations of being a troll and a 902 hater. A troll I may be, but a 902 hater I am not. I have worked with both types of aircraft (135 & 902) and with regard to maintenance I was speaking from experience, and referring to scheduled maintenance not unscheduled. Maybe I should have made my point better by saying, by all means move a 902 to Redhill, but for the love of god don't make it one that's spec'd to do an air ambulance role. Let's keep police air support as police air support.

Notionally Providing Air Support

[Windle Poons]

VC :D :D

Your post has given me a wonderful money saving idea for kuntynuty and the government to consider. With a bit of on the job training we could consider civilianising all the following roles:

* RAF personnel, particularly aircrew: fast jet, transport and rotary
* Army all ranks all roles
* Navy ditto.

After all they can't strike either, and if we can't go as far as civilianising them then we could just increase their pensions and cut their pay, especially if they're not front line. That should just about p!55 them off enough until they can't be bothered any more. Then we can all go and join the public sector and be happy decent over taxed tax payers. ;)

You never know this could work for fire fighters, consultants, surgeons, doctors and nurses too. Actually scratch that, they can strike can't they! :E

I shall now stop rising to the bait and return to being the bottom feeder that I am. :)

WP

[Vera City]

Oh bugger, I've just noticed that kuntynuty (from Cambridge who ceased police air operations a couple of days ago! :E) has been banned. Now I'll never get the answers to my questions. My life can never be complete! ;)

[Letsby Avenue]

An excellent Thread with many points raised and questions asked all of which go unanswered by SC and her HR chums (and others). My question concerns any new national FTL . The rumoured 4,3,4,3 - 9 hour rota, if it is approved, leaves my pilots looking at an extra 23 shifts a year which won't be mitigated due to the reduction in hours on shift from 10 to 9. I can't see that going down too well...

[aeromys]

I do believe that the Sussex PA have shot themselves in the foot by insisting that the south east base is moved from Dunsfold to Redhill. With true borderless tasking, this now becomes a south London resource. Try getting it for the endless coastal searches when it is stuck in Croydon and Brixton all day, much closer and more needy (but obviously no more important) than Brighton, I'm sure the Met are rubbing their hands with glee at getting another Heli so close to them.

And slap bang between the Kent and Surrey/Sussex air ambulance bases. With the NPAS base at Redhill set to cover South London, Surrey, Kent, Sussex and Hampshire, it's going to be worked very hard indeed in it's Police role, and the 1/4 million saving on keeping it's air ambulance role pales into insignificance.

And what of Hampshire's busiest areas? With the busy Heli at Odiham going, and the Bournemouth base a long way from being established, who covers their area?

[Windle Poons]

Letsby,

I think Sussex work that shift, or something similar. They may be able to tell you how good, or bad, it is. Out of interest where did you hear the 9 hour shift rumour? That would tie in with the other rumour circulating that the 20 hour coverage from the regional bases has been reduced to 20 hour coverage across the bases (24 hour units excepted). That's a pretty major change, that will seriously affect service across each region, for not very much saving in money!

I am given to understand that an email to the NPIA asking them to confirm or deny the rumour has so far met with a deafening silence. There seem to be a lot of press releases but not many answers.

[Fortyodd2]

Go on then Letsby, I'm curious.....

How does this "4,3,4,3" rota work then?

[Letsby Avenue]

My understanding is 4 days, 3 Nights, 4 Off, 3 Days, 4 Nights, 3 Off - with a staggered start/finish time for those units not on 24 hour ops. Nice if you end up with 1700-0200 I suppose, not so nice with 1800-0300. Very similar to what most units do now but with an extra 23 trips a year in to work.

[Fortyodd2]

Sorry to be a pain Letsby but, I've put this onto an FTL sheet and cannot make it work - especially for anyone finishing after 0300 and all variations end up with only 7 days off in 28 rather than the minimum 8 required. Also, I can't make it work with 3 pilots over a regular 21 day period which is what a 4-3-4-3-4-3 should end up with. Instead, it very quickly ends up with 2 pilots on night shift on the same day or someone doing night shift straight into a day shift - Can somebody please explain??

[Letsby Avenue]

Start with threes

DDDNNNNOOODDDDNNNOOOODDDNNNNOOO
NNNOOOODDDNNNNOOODDDDNNNOOOODDD
OOODDDDNNNOOOODDDNNNNOOODDDDNNN

etc

Equates to 18.67 duties per 28 days apparently

You are correct WP, 20 hours across the region NOT each unit working 20 hours

[Fortyodd2]

Thanks Letsby.
Still doesn't answer the min 8 days off in 28 or, for those finishing after 0300, only 2 days off in 14. I take it that units using it already finish before 3 and have exemptions in place??

...............and over a 3 year run, one poor sod works every Christmas day!:sad:

[Letsby Avenue]

Only 24 hour units past 0400. Hadn't got as far as the Xmas roster :eek:

The drop to 9 hour shifts is necessary else we work too many hours in a year. Hence we lose 23 days off per year

[Gas Generator]

Hi

The roster you described exceeds the 60 hour rule (63 on each block of 7 x 9).

Because the first day after nights is PART of a day off you only have 3 days off then 2 off - NOT 4 and 3 as described - 'A single day off shall include 2 local nights'.

Annual days off 86.9 and every 3 months = 21.73!

The 21 day roster you describe equates to 2190 annual hours and a 42.12 hour week.

It would also give less time coverage to an area and make the requirement for floaters increase.

At the moment it appears that those regions that do not have a 24 hour unit, will only have 3 pilots (NPAS) each - the rest being covered by floaters. You have to run 10 hour shifts to get the maximum time per area and minimise floaters - those areas with multiple types will be hardest hit by this way of managing the rosters - IF you do the math, those units, to run at maximum efficiency will actually need 4 pilots per unit minimum still with a need for floaters and give the full 24 hour coverage with 20 hour bases doing 10 hour maximum rosters. I guess it will be a different matter if the only goal is to save money and not honour the commitment to provide 20 hours from a unit.

This still does not take into account the 15 minutes pre and post flight requirement of the present FTL or any handover period?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Chilterns work past 03:00hrs every day.

[Windle Poons]

FTLs are going to be the primary concern, but looking at that roster it also presents problems for the observers hours.

If each shift is nine hours then over a three week period the observers would work 126 hours, six over their duty time. A quick call to Sussex shows how they fit into this roster:

08:00 - 16:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat
16:00 - 01:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat
09:00 - 16:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun
16:00 - 23:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun

That totals 120 hours over the three weeks and allows for a half an hour handover. Looking at it I don't like the later shift option to allow for 20 hour coverage across the bases, as the late base would need to work something like this:

10:00 - 18:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat
19:00 - 04:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat
11:00 - 18:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun
19:00 - 02:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun

That plays havoc with the FTLs as already indicated, and I think most people would want to be on the earlier shifts as there's no working after 01:00!

Why can't they run with a six on four off, six on five off pattern (EEELLLRRREEELLLRRRRR) which needs seven observers and three and half pilots (six shifts not covered in a three week cycle)? This provides 20 hour coverage at each of the bases and requires very little increase in staffing over the nine hour shift pattern above. I know I've said increase when everything is realistically all about decreasing, but why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?

[Letsby Avenue]

That 0400 finish would be a goodbye from me.... All regional bases (not 24hr) will be three pilot bases (goodbye Chief Pilots) so leave applications will have to be approved centrally by the regional CP and I'm betting there won't be enough slack in the system to get everyone's leave in, unless of course we're converting each Day's leave to hours like the bobbies. So there's another hit on time off.

I agree Gas Generator but sadly this is an already approved roster... Pilots are getting squeezed till the pips squeak. It will be interesting to see how Bank Holidays are managed?

[Windle Poons]

I know a few observers (a couple who have ten years or more experience) who are now thinking that it's time to depart air ops. Reasons range from security and stability to better work life balance and money/promotion. One is actively looking to leave the police altogether, although that's to do with Winsor as much as NPAS.

Chatting to them they reckon they've had a good run on air ops, and don't want to be part of an national aerial missing persons and senior officer a75e covering service!

Part of the trouble is the uncertainty from a lack of hard information, or definite answers. Between NPAS and Winsor there is a very real chance that in a few short years there will be no experience, or possibly even police officers, on board police aircraft in the UK.

[Thomas coupling]

C'mon Ollie, a statement updating things at NPAS (post 1st April) would go far.
Work your magic and push out a press release....

[Helinut]

Windle,

It is possible that the outcome you mention in the last sentence of your post is the intention of all this inaction. After all, the driving force behind this initiative is to save money. With fewer aircraft they will need fewer crew of all categories. They think they may also save money by employing monkeys with their dietary requirements. It costs nothing to deal with resigning staff; those who are made redundant are different.

[I am not suggesting for a moment that OD would be associated with such a stance].

[Wagging Finger]

So really, all we have is another 'In Principle' sign up.

Looks like the 'in principle' is just about to go out of the window, have a look here (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/parliamentary-business/written-ministerial-statement/police-air-support-order/) specifically the 'It is time for the Police Service to move on from considering the principle and to focus on agreeing the details of a collaborative approach' part.

Police Air Support: The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012 - WMS

This written ministerial statement on the provision of police air support was laid in the House of Commons on 27 March 2012 by Nick Herbert, and in the House of Lords by Lord Henley.

The Minister of State for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): My right honourable Friend the Home Secretary has today laid before the House a draft of The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012.

This Order requires the police service to collaborate in the provision of air support through a single collaboration agreement.

I have consulted the Police Service about the proposed Order and, having carefully considered the responses received, I have decided to make the Order.
In 2009 Bernard Hogan-Howe, then Chief Constable of Merseyside, carried out a review of the arrangements for police air support for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). This identified scope to rationalise the current patchwork of provision and make savings, as well as ensuring a consistent level of air support across England and Wales.

On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following:

It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year – in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.
97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time.
It will also save the police service £15m per year when fully operational.
Chief Constables of all forces in England and Wales have given their support to the proposal for NPAS. The vast majority of police authorities have also given support in principle. However, realisation of the full benefits available through NPAS depends upon the commitment of the whole of the police service in England and Wales. These proposals have been under discussion for over two years. It is time for the Police Service to move on from considering the principle and to focus on agreeing the details of a collaborative approach. This Order will ensure such a focus.

While the Government has removed central targets from the police and is giving elected police and crime commissioners the power to set local strategic priorities, it has also introduced new powers under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to ensure that forces work effectively together. This is the first use of new powers brought in by the Act.

Theres not yet people on the pitch, but they seem to be gathering.

[SilsoeSid]

Theres not yet people on the pitch, but they seem to be gathering.

I wonder what would happen if the referee, in W.Yorkshire, was to decide not to bring along the whistle. Would Mr Herbert come out from the terraces and tell them to use his ?

[SilsoeSid]

I believe the Winsor report doesn't apply to Scotland.
Pity really, because if it did, I wonder if their crews would be classed as 'specialists' or not.

Police-air-teams-copter-capture-in-hunt-for-countrys-fugitives (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4244657/Police-air-teams-copter-capture-in-hunt-for-countrys-fugitives.html)


AN elite cop chopper squad is the last line of defence against Scotland’s fugitive crooks.

A fugitive thief cowers in long grass under cover of darkness — but thanks to Scotland’s elite police helicopter squad, there’s nowhere to hide.

"Highly trained officers"...
etc


A quick google brought me to;
e·lite/iˈlēt/Noun:
1.A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth.
2.A size of letter in typewriting, with 12 characters to the inch (about 4.7 to the centimeter).


Maintaining the football references, Scotland 1 - England & Wales 2

[SilsoeSid]

Please can I clear something up. Who decides what is a specialist role or not?

According to at least one English Force;

Specialist Roles

A OCU-Operations

Specialist - Recommendation
All Force Traffic Units - Management Scrutiny
Camera Enforcement Unit - Management Scrutiny
Air Operations - Management Scrutiny
Firearms Operations - Management Scrutiny
Force Communication Centre - Management Scrutiny
Stolen Vehicle Squad - Management Scrutiny
Crash Investigation - Management Scrutiny
Public Order Training - Management Scrutiny
Driving School - Management Scrutiny
OSU - Fixed Term 5 years
Airport Firearms - Management Scrutiny
Dog Training - Management Scrutiny
Dog Handlers - Management Scrutiny
Airport Police Unit - Management Scrutiny
All other 'A' OCU posts - Management Scrutiny
http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/foi/publication-scheme/policies-procedures/policy-PMOEP.asp?id=45

And another...

In 1986, the Thames Valley Police Air Support Unit relocated to RAF Abingdon and was allocated a budget of 650 flying hours per annum. In 1988, it was recognised that the role of observer was a specialist skill and a team of fully trained, full-time dedicated observers was created.
The first police helicopters (http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/aboutus/aboutus-depts/aboutus-depts-ts/aboutus-depts-casu/aboutus-depts-casu-hist/aboutus-depts-casu-hist-fst-heli.htm)

Within this section of the website you can find information on some of our specialist teams and units.
Introduction | Devon & Cornwall Police (http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/AboutUs/SpecialistOperations/Pages/default.aspx)
Just click on 'Helicopter'


And to add one of Wales'forces to the list;

■Operational Support Services
North Wales Police includes the services of dedicated and specialist teams of officers. Operational Support provides tactical and operational response to incidents. These include:


■Operational Planning
■Armed Response
■Air Operations (Helicopter)
■Dogs
■Firearms Training
■Go Safe
■Custody
Who we are and what we do (http://www.north-wales.police.uk/about_us/your_right_to_information/publication_scheme-1/who_we_are_and_what_we_do.aspx)

[SilsoeSid]

And to top it all off, it appears that even the NPIA disagree with the specialist classification of the Observer role made by the Winsor report.

NPIA: Fitness Standards for Specialist Roles (http://www.npia.police.uk/en/16305.htm)
On the 18 January 2012 the Chief's Constables Council agreed to support new job related fitness tests for specialist posts which were developed by the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales Fitness Working Group. They include fitness standards for 13 specialist posts...
..including Air Support !

Final report, dated 22 Jan 2012, here;
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:raiezqgJF9kJ:www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/FWG_Report_final.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShlVlwtrwNgkFrzun8IYcj6bH9YaGLrKwDSMFcFhJHGgrK_NT QLIC-wIONw25X4dv-_q0yQYlUp3kbGVykbKQYhAsTruuXuv5yatHqRKnvxG9nfStOGdxp_I6c25Xd u0lMo5wpC&sig=AHIEtbTCoXdVPUQxz38vRY_rtYfFMeXANg
In Appendix 3 Specialist Policing Roles/Duties Definitions, we find Air Support(AS)

p.s. Don't mention that the Winsor report itself currently refers to Air Support as a specialist role!

[PANews]

This 'band of the super fit fixation is the sort of misguided leadership caused by a hierarchy with little of no real knowledge of policing as it is done.

Having arrived into fast track promotion direct from Uni or spent years wandering around Uni in the Job's time getting a Degree in Criminology as perceived by a non-police person they have this vision of fit young things hurtling around the streets [and running straight into trouble] as their perfect police officer.

When crime was low and inevitably solved to a high percentage level it was undertaking by heavy smoking and drinking 'plodders' not fit whizz kids. They thought about their actions before they undertook them. No-one runs into an incident, you arrive at a walk gaining inteligence about the situation with every carefully placed pace.

There are parallels. Air support gains most information in the hover at 2,000 feet not by whizzing in at 150mph to 200 feet.

I believe you only need to look at the relative crime figures to gain an indication which system actually worked.

[Wagging Finger]

on the other hand it could be that organisations have a duty of care over their staff now under H&S legislation (That was no where to be seen in the days PANews refers to) as part of the duty of care staff should be 'fit for purpose' any fitness test is just to show that the individual is physiologically fit enough not physically fit enough for duty.

[Coconutty]

Why does an Air Observer ( Hate that description - they do far far more than just "observe" ) need to be fitter than a Police Dog Handler ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[[email protected]]

Wagging finger - it's not really duty of care, as that implies that someone does actually care - it is ass covering so you can't sue them if you have a heart attack during the course of your duties.

[PANews]

If there was a real duty of care they would ensure that the police officers they employ are 'fit for purpose' - they would not be employing people physically unable to look after themselves. To short, too weak etc. to look after themselves so they need to supply CS gas and tasers to acheive basic defence ..... and then they whinge when that provision goes wrong and the crims get more injuries than a simple tustle would have created.

All their theorising and PC activities, often promoted by political motives, fails to cover the most basic of H&S considerations.

[[email protected]]

Ah but then you fall foul of discrimination against those who are too small, weak etc so you can't win:ugh:

[Windle Poons]

Helinut,

Thanks for the email, your supposition was correct. Will reply shortly and no doubt we can sort something out. :)

Whilst I don't think that it's necessarily a deliberate strategy, I have no doubt that they realise it's a likely eventuality, and will undoubtedly be happy when it happens, as it will make life much easier. That is unless everyone goes, which as already alluded to by others, is almost certain to happen in 2016, if not before, should Mr Winsor get his way. Is half a dozen or so civilian observers enough to run NPAS?

D-Day is fast approaching in the South East, and management are obviously concerned that people will vote with their feet, because they've now stated that they will not allow people to leave for other posts, pending the move to NPAS in October! Funny how this paragraph is in contradiction with the first. It's also funny that people who think they have the best job in the police are wanting to leave!

Only a few months to go and there's no information, let alone decisions, regarding aircraft, staffing and operational hours. Lots of "preferred options" and "considerations" but nothing hard and fast.

Without wishing to be emotive, it's not just air operations they're playing with, it's people's lives.

WP

[Art of flight]

Windle, spotted an error in your post......you wrote 'D Day' when I'm sure you ment 'Dunkirk'!!

The first D Day for us in the SE was April 1st but the convoy hadn't set off due to the manifest being unready.

[Windle Poons]

Windle, spotted an error in your post......you wrote 'D Day' when I'm sure you ment 'Dunkirk'!! :D I would have laughed more, but never a truer word and all that!

Strangely, just as I was laughing at your post I got a text from someone that said..."Half a league, half a league, half a league onward."

[Vera City]

I have a colleague who's father runs a brewery, not a big one, but a brewery nonetheless. Over the years he has organised some really good piss ups, and that got me to wondering whether the NPIA should have employed him? :E

[Fortyodd2]

Vera, do you not know anything???
It is NPIA policy not to employ anyone who actually knows what they are talking about!!
This way, they can not only charge you for the work they did but for all the updates, upgrades, mods and fixes needed to put the original product into a condition where it actually does what it was supposed to do in the first place. You want proof? - look at Airborne Airwave :ugh:

[Coconutty]

Airborne Airwave.... upgrades, mods and fixes needed to put the original product into a condition where it actually does what it was supposed to do in the first place.....
:oh:


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Noticed this on the news this morning...

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/DSCF1194a.jpg

...and wondered why the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police would have a model of an EC145 in his office :confused:

(remove the 'a' in the pics filename for bigger shot)

[SilsoeSid]

BBC News - South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-17703049)

13 April 2012 Last updated at 17:00
South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter

Plans for South Yorkshire Police to keep its own helicopter for use during peak times have been approved.

The force will use the National Police Air Service (NPAS) for Wakefield, North Derbyshire and Humberside outside of peak hours.

Last year it was announced that NPAS would be introduced, meaning regional forces shared helicopters.

A South Yorkshire Police Authority spokesperson said the local service was critical to maintaining response times.

The South Yorkshire police helicopter was introduced in 1997 and flies about 1,200 hours a year at a cost of £1.68m.

Under the new plans, the force's helicopter would be available for use for 10 hours a day.

Sean Wright, deputy chairman for the authority said: "We've done an analysis of when the helicopter flies and we've identified peak deployment periods.

"We'll be looking at how we can best maintain response times to deliver a police air support service at peak periods."

The government said the introduction of the national service would see the number of police air units across England and Wales cut from 32 to 22.

[Helinut]

Just remind me, how is this going to save money...............?:mad:

[PANews]

Now lets take a distorted view on this pyrric victory for common sense over government [and ACPO] edict achieved by the South Yorkshire Police Authority.

Reconvene the talks in a couple of years from now and ...... ooer..... South Yorkshire Police Authority will not turn up to the table.....

There may be some common sense and cost savings to be made from this arrangement and I would not expect to be party to them. Perhaps there is something to be said for a peak time resource in Yorkshire that does not come directly out of the NPAS coffers and perhaps 23 is not the right number after all [only time and experience will confirm that] but my bet is that this deal is not set in stone. What is?

and another thing on this victory. If this is going to be a 10 hours a day peak requirement operation that potentially means the SYPASU crews are on near permanent late/half nights shift duties.

[jimbobawob]

Thats assuming there are any constable observers left once Windsor 2 has its wicked way. I cant think of many who would be prepared to accept the loss of "specialist skills" payment...

[morris1]

The other element so the South Yorks "victory" is that the a/c provision is only for 6 years..!
After that, no helicopter..!!

[Gas Generator]

Nice, perhaps that is an indication to the timescale for complete and utter civilianisation of police air operations, run by a private company that is subject to the vagaries of the stock market etc and does not have to report to the taxpayer.

RIP. :{

[morris1]

Haha. Yes indeed. In fact my business plan is written to set up the company. I just need some MONEY..!!

"Air support provided by the hour. A/C crewed by REAL (retired) ex police air observers."
"no need for a pesky PAOC, pilot contracts or engineering. Prevent your force from being sued by letting us search (unsuccessfully) for your missing persons. Half the cost of running your own unit".

Privatisation. It's the Tory way. :cool:

[Coconutty]

Just remind me, how is this going to save moneyI doubt that the arrangements made by South Yorkshire to retain their aircraft will save them any money at all,
and they know that, but have allowed common sense and an appreciation of just how valuable their asset is, to prevail :D

Then again, I can't remember hearing ANYONE saying they have been convinced that
they will save any money under NPAS, at least not for many years, if at all. :hmm:

It all seems to have moved on from the original "Improved service at a reduced cost",
to a Dictated service at an unknown cost - which could even be higher than the Pre-NPAS cost. :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[morris1]

I doubt that the arrangements made by South Yorkshire to retain their aircraft will save them any money at all

From the NPAS figures..
Option 3 (10hrs per day own a/c) = 1.686 million pounds
Current cost of running own unit = 1.68 million pounds..

So the NPAS "deal" they have struck actually costs 6000 pounds per year MORE

For the 6K extra they get the privilege of only using the a/c that they OWN for ten hours a day, lose half their pilots, all their engineers, and half their cops..:D

Oh yes but they get 24 hr cover from NPAS..
(ah but they are in a mutual aid consortium already where they are provided with..... yes you guessed it.. 24hr cover...!!! )

So the sum total of the gains from joining NPAS = zero..:ok:

[Wagging Finger]

Morris1 wrote
So the sum total of the gains from joining NPAS = zero..
This is not strictly true, This is the price of going it alone, partially. Had SYP joined NPAS they would be paying substantially less, albeit at the loss of their aircraft and relying totally on other units.

I am glad I don't work at SYP, if they are covering 'Peak deployment' then it's no social life, no home life..........sounds like fun.


:=

[timex]

I am glad I don't work at SYP, if they are covering 'Peak deployment' then it's no social life, no home life..........sounds like fun.


Or on the other hand if they joined NPAS it could be No job...

[What Limits]

Almost sounds perfect to me, single shift, four on, four off. Where do I sign up?

[morris1]

I am glad I don't work at SYP, if they are covering 'Peak deployment' then it's no social life, no home life..........sounds like fun.


Or on the other hand if they joined NPAS it could be No job...

They have joined NPAS. That's why half the staff have to go..!

[Fly_For_Fun]

Have NPAS started the redundancy process in SYP already?

[Art of flight]

Not sure NPAS is an employer, still waiting to see if West Yorks take it (us) on, then they can make some redundancies.

[Ivor E Tower]

Kent`s bid for "Dispatch and Flight Following"

Apparently they are in competition with West Yorkshire for the job!

It is believed that the only competitor Kent Police has in relation to the provision of this function is West Yorkshire who are submitting a bid of their own.

http://www.kentpoliceauthority.gov.uk/Upload/AssetArchive/PublicMeetings/FullAuthority/25April2012/Item%2016%20National%20Police%20Air%20Service.pdf

[Art of flight]

Two things to question with the Kent proposal....

1. The staff costs to NPAS are in the region of £890,000 per annum for the supervisors and controllers just to 'dispatch and flight follow the aircraft'?

2. If the Kent FCC are just dispatching the nearest aircraft, who's making the decision about the viability of the job in the first place? Do we assume the controller will not be vetting the jobs but just passing them on. If thats the case why not just have force control rooms offer the job up on the regional air to ground channel so the the nearest aircraft responds (works fine at the moment) and dispense with this additional expensive labour force?

Thought this was about saving money:confused:

[ALFIE15]

Art of flight, if your figures are correct it is frightening what the eventual staffing cost are ping to be,just to slow deployment down,. I find it astonishing that Alex Marshall (ACPO) in charge cannot see what a monster his project team have created. Art of flight does your figure take into account the NPAS HQ staff ie flight op's director salary in the region of £78k ?. I would not like to guess what the proposed salary will be for the head of NPAS.:ugh:

[Thomas coupling]

Alfie, there is no head of NPAS, perse. OD and his counterpart, the supt answer to the C.C of the parent police force when it is all agreed (from an AOC perspective and then NPAS as an entity will go. The 'system' also answers to a management group consisting of reps across the board including a rep from the 'old police authority system'.

Has the parent police force been selected and established yet - anyone?

[ALFIE15]

Thomas, That is not how I read some documents, I was led to believe (happy to be corrected) that the current project lead will take the top roll , but will have to re apply for the job after 6 months, once up and running.
The parent force roll has been accepted by West York's and Kent and West York's are bidding for the dispatch roll.
I say dispatch roll as if you read the Kent proposal staff will be rotated on a regular basis therefore reducing their knowledge to filter out non air support job's:D

[Art of flight]

ALFIE

My figure was only for the Kent proposed 36 controllers (£22,000 pa) and 5 desk supervisors (£25,000 pa). Salaries are a little lower than that when Winsor very soon takes away the Weekend and shift working enhancements from the civilian staff, but include emloyers 'on-costs' such as training, uniform, pension contribution of 13% etc....

That figure does not include salaries for FOD, Finance director, procurement chief, Head of training, 6 regional managers etc... say another £500,000 and all the extra aircraft hours being used on flying large (ish) distances to provide a 24 hour regional service from 19 hour units.

[SilsoeSid]

Lots of things in that doc to pick up on, but as the topic of the moment is the staffing of the control room;

FORCE CONTROL ROOM AIR OPERATIONS
24. Dedicated Control Room Dispatchers will be provided by Kent Police. They will receive initial training in air operations control and deployment and provide the Kent Air Ops capability at the FCR.
25. It is anticipated that providing the required level of cover for a country wide operation of this type will require 36 dispatchers and 5 supervisors.
26. These staff will be Kent Police employees who have attained Level 5 dispatcher capability within the FCR or in the case of supervisors are Team Leaders, (or police officer equivalents).
27. Staff will serve a 3 month tour of duty with Kent Air Ops before rotating back to their section.

This could simply be a move by Kent to have a reason to keep their present staffing levels i.e. no redundancies due to additional responsibilities. I'm hearing 'Why didn't we think of that?" from forces around the country.
I would be surprised if there would be any recruitment going on in these times of cutbacks, just a whole lot of controller upgrading to Level 5. I take it that eventually every Kent controller will be level 5/air ops trained (LEVEL 5A) and become part of the 3 month rotation.

I do notice reference to C2, (Command & Control), shouldn't that be C3, (C2 + Communication) :suspect:

If there is some recruitment needed, how long before we hear cries of 'Jobs for the South' again, and do you think CAA Flt Ops might have issues with para's 30 & 31?

[SilsoeSid]

My particular favourite part is;
23. The Kent ESRI mapping system shows the entire country down to a scale of 1:50,000 which is sufficiently detailed to identify the closest aircraft to an incident.

Wouldn't a quick look at a 250k or even a 500k on a wall would be safer?
There may be hills, active danger areas, NOTAMS and other beasties out there that I suspect the mapping system might not take into consideration. Hazards that a 'trained eye' with local weather updates looking at a marked map would.

C4I (C3 + computers & intelligence) :ok:

[tigerfish]

Interesting isn't it, That the Force chosen so carry out this very important, some might say vital function, - is the only major force in the country that never took the trouble to provide itself with Air Support.

For ages it refused point blank to have anything to do with air support, and then to avoid any major expenditure paid for a service from Essex!

Is it not surprising then, that one or two are a tad sceptical.:ugh:

tigerfish

see, - I'm still here! Watching and listening!