A380 Cracking Up

[clear to land]

Hi: link attachedCracks found in A380s during Qantas repairs (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/cracks-found-in-a380s-during-qantas-repairs-20120105-1pmyv.html)
Interesting for AB. Maybe?

[jackdaniels]

if it aint boeing aint going...:p

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Yawn. Back to sleep.

[Sal-e]

It never fails to amaze me when any fault in Airbus aircraft prompts barely a yawn nowadays. As if to say 'yep, that is standard with Airbus'. There are so many outstanding explanations of faults and failures, some catastrophic, with Airbus planes to date. When are the authorities going to seriously scrutinise this paper aeroplane company? When one of these 380s break up in flight?

[MrMachfivepointfive]

It never fails to amaze me when any fault in Airbus aircraft prompts barely a yawn nowadays. As if to say 'yep, that is standard with Airbus'. There are so many outstanding explanations of faults and failures, some catastrophic, with Airbus planes to date. When are the authorities going to seriously scrutinise this paper aeroplane company? When one of these 380s break up in flight?
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6937694)

Yadda yadda yadda. I remember the Aloha Boeing convertible, the holes in Southwest Boeing roofs, the rotted stringers and blowouts in the wheel well that brought down a China 747, JAL blown rear bulkhead that killed 550. Never heard anything like that happen to a Toulousian.

[A380 Jockey]

Mach,
The average age of all of the above 'incident boeings' was 14-18yrs. Average age of the 380 is just two....!
THAT should send up a few red flags my friend.
Moreover, a technical glitch in a 2 year airplane is forgiveable. But an airframe stress point crack in the same....is not!
Nothing to do with B or AB..

[Sal-e]

All the causes for those Boeings you mentioned were fatigue over age which resulted in the development of better detection methods. In fact every Boeing problem had been transparent which had resulted in benefits for the entire industry.
But a two year old Airbus aircraft cracking? Come on. Not to mention the massive efforts in cover-ups. Yawn yawn you say. Typical cover-up method by an amateur.

[SAS-A321]

Here we go again... another A vs. B war. :ugh:

[MrMachfivepointfive]

The average age of all of the above 'incident boeings' was 14-18yrs. Average age of the 380 is just two....!The oldest Toulousians are now approaching 40. Still. none has lost its roof or blown its wheel well. I have one cm long invisibile cracks in each of my bones probably. Nevertheless, my femur will hold up another decade or two, or so I hope.

[jumbo1]

Femur will probably be fine - its the jaw I'm worried about with all the yawning....:)
Sorry, couldn't resist
Happy New Year all!

[powerstall]

Additional OEB's?

[Jet II]

Strange that it is the ribs that are cracking - you would have thought that Airbus would have sorted that after the problems they had with the A330/340 rib 6 cracking.

[CAYNINE]

This really is getting lame....... same names same ****e

[A300Man]

Good post, sittingidly.

[halas]

Intersting post Idly.
Unfortunately l think Boeing is heading down the same "denial" path as Airbus with their introduction of the 787.

halas

[TowerDog]

The oldest Toulousians are now approaching 40. Still. none has lost its roof or blown its wheel well.

A few have lost the rudders...:sad:

[helen-damnation]

A few have lost the rudders

So did Concorde! It's aviation folks....

[TowerDog]

So did Concorde! It's aviation folks....

Normal ops then, nothing to fuzz about..? :confused:

[goatherd]

Having flown BOTH Airbus and Boeing, I will happily fly either...warts and all.

[ironbutt57]

Any details available???

[Hook]

if you decide after that week that I am wrong, then you are an idiot.

I don't need a week to decide. I am an idiot.

[ironbutt57]

I've flown both, doesnt matter to me as long as I get paid...I do wonder though if the 787 develops cracks will they be able to detect them at an early stage?? Anybody here "in the know" on this??

[Reinhardt]

I could be in the know.

Expect - maybe - some structural problems on the junctions composite-classical stuff of the 787 one of those days...

As for he A300 which lost its rudder - the accident was caused by an idiotic pilot cycling the controls (BOTH rudder and ailerons, to maximum deflections, simultaneously, quickly and a couple of times...) after encountering a brief wake turbulence. Ever heard of inertia coupling, dutch roll ? Do that on any aircraft (Boeing, Airbus, Hercules, Citation, Convair Coronado, B24 liberator) and the airframe will break up somewhere. It's never tested by the industry (during what airline pilots call "certification" when they want to impress the new F/O) because test pilots are not suicidal...
A rudder doublet is what's used by test pilots to initiate dutch roll... INCREMENTALLY and in a controlled manner.
Those who fly Boeing and think it's an Airbus problem : just try that in your aircraft, and you will see (without me on board)

Airbus wings are built in England.

and it took Boeing 15 years or so to remove from their training manuals... that the inertial vector could be used in case of unreliable airspeed ! yes, what a joke it used to be.
As for companies training captains, they immediately switched to the new version without even a smallest wink....

[helen-damnation]

Normal ops then, nothing to fuzz about..?

Not at all. Simply pointing out that it's happened before and it'll happen again :eek:

[Reinhardt]

Don't bother Matmax, iver and others just come from countries where they don't build aircraft, and where american movies have subtitiles because it wouldn't be economically viable to translate (thus giving them a slight advantage in english when they want to become airline pilots with Dad's money)

As for A380, Hong Kong Airlines just bought 10 of them.

And don't worry Matmax, apart from Airbus, we also build their cruise ships Queen something2, their nuclear bombs have an american release code, and they no longer have aircraft carriers.

It has always been difficult for americans (and their subservant aussies and similars) to accept that other nationalities can build aircraft, jet fighters, helicopters, missiles, satellites and nuclear submarines. Just remember how patronising they were when the first Airbus - the A300 - arrived in the 70s. Then for the A320 (it's a strange design - it will never sell...5000+ now ?) and now the 380. So just wait and see.

Now who did start it first ?

[777boyindubai]

Why do these threads always descend to such base behaviour? If we want to get treated like the professionals we are, why do continue to give management ammunition to laugh at us. Please can we keep on topic and have some useful info. Instead of name calling and insulting nationalities....

[MATMAX]

Some interesting points of view here ...
Bravo 777boyindubai and Reinhardt !

[MATMAX]

Now , if a simple Engineer can give his point of view to some of the best Pilots in the world : structure is a question of technology and not manufacturer ...
I have started my career on the old 747 and maybe some of you heard about section 41 as an example (nose gear wheel well)...
Cracks are everywhere ... and in both families.
There are tolerances about them , given by manufacturers in a book called SRM ... Structure Repair Manual (for the ones who does not know it).
Be sure that if an Engineer is signing a release with a known crack , he would have checked the book first or got the agreement from the manufacturer , what i mean is , that none of my brother will take any kind of risk with that ...

[MATMAX]

Or is it because some of you have a childish mind and are not experienced in both Airbus and Boeings ...?
Real experienced people do not care if it is an Airbus or a Boeing ...
They are just doing their job.
I do not see where your management is involved in something here ...
But for sure , they will easily understand that they are managing kids.
Just my two cents.

[Whygaf]

Back to cracks!! The fact is most, if not all, aircraft will suffer from fatigue cracks/cracking at some point or other during their life. Once discovered, the operator will inform the manufacturer/ aviation authority. The operator may well take instruction from the manufacturer, with regards to what repair to carry out or if it is considered a standard repair, the operator may follow existing guidelines on repairing the defect.

The manufacturer and the relevant aviation authority will then decide how severe the issue is and what action, if any, must be taken with regards to this defect on all the other of the type flying, both in the short/medium and long term. Some defects will require immediate attention, some won't (eg section 41 747).

So it is rather simplistic for the Aussie ALAE to call for a grounding when they neither have all the information/ the expertise (metallurgy/stress analysis/etc) or responsibility.

We all play a part in aviation and we all have to trust the other guy/girl to do their bit, in this case we have to trust the manufacturer and the aviation authorities, just as we have all done so in the past, after all, it is what they are paid to do!:ok:

[MATMAX]

Whygaf,
Thank you for confirming what i was saying ...
Except about aviation authorities , as they have nothing to do in this kind of cases but just to be informed , thats it ...
I have been involved in many RAS , RDAS or whatever one is calling them in both Airbus and Boeings and i have never seen authorities involved in that and i do not see why they should be ...
About Aussies ALAEs , not a surprise to me that they are hiring europeans there and mostly Frenchies ... some people here will say that i am "arrogant" but thats the truth and simply the facts ...

[willfly380]

As long as a Crack is not in the flight deck flying it....

[Whygaf]

The aviation authorities are very much involved in significant structural defect assessement/ rectification, most authorities (FAA/EASA/CAA) require significant defects in primary structure to be reportable under their mandatory occurence reporting schemes.

So whilst you as an engineer may have had no contact with the aviation authorities directly, they are involved, certainly not in all defects (items already covered in the structural repair manual for example), but they would definately be involved in the a380 wing rib cracks.

With particular regards to this defect I believe the severity and number of cracks varies between aircraft so some may be grounded earlier for repair than others.:ok:

[jackx123]

this thread has cracked me up

[I.R.PIRATE]

The way 380 jocks land the whale, I have no doubt they will start cracking and falling apart.

Is that aircraft difficult to land?

Doesn't matter which carrier, I have yet to have a landing in a 380 that couldn't be described as bone-jarring. (>12)

I, myself am merely a controlled crasher at the best of times, so I have a decent frame of reference : but holy smoke the guys thump that plane into the deck.

[givemewings]

I think you're just unlucky. In over a year flying on it I've only experienced a handful of "firmer than usual" landings (seated both aft and fwd) usually due to weather, and in one case due to a bird choosing the wrong place to be at that critical moment... :}

Could also be down to past types flown, but you guys would know more about that than I.

Have also experienced a few where I hadn't realised for a few seconds that we'd actually touched tarmac, credit where credit is due :cool:

[Reinhardt]

When are the authorities going to seriously scrutinise this paper aeroplane company?
Young man, the paper company once again did beat Boeing regarding the number of net orders for 2011 (1419 for AB, 805 for Boeing) same for deliveries and gross orders.
Airbus did take 87% of the market, for all of you to know.
What started as a little business in Toulouse in the middle of the 70s is now what you all can see.

And ATR, colocated in Toulouse the other side of the airport, sold 157 ATR72 and 42 in 2011, compared to .. 6 Q400 for Bombardier in the same period.

For you to remember next time you speak of a paper company.

[Poire]

Airbus ... buy one, get two free :-)

[juice]

More here

New cracks found in Airbus A380 - The Irish Times - Thu, Jan 19, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0119/breaking58.html)

[The Turtle]

A380 Inspections due for Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Air France (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3a70f33695-11a4-4c94-95d9-cfdde392a107&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)
Posted by Robert Wall (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/community/persona/index.jsp?newspaperUserId=25764&plckUserId=25764) at 1/20/2012 5:18 AM CST

Lead A380 operator Singapore Airlines has the most A380s affected by the European Aviation Safety Agency's call for inspection of wing rib-feet on the aircraft, although the airline does not foresee service disruptions (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2012/01/20/awx_01_20_2012_p0-416522.xml&headline=SIA%20Starts%20A380%20Crack%20Inspection&channel=comm).

Emirates Airlines also has to check seven of its aircraft, and Air France's first A380 falls under the EASA inspection regime detailed in this airworthiness directive (http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2012-0013). Airbus also has to inspect some of its test aircraft, which it already did as part of the assessment of what the problem with the L-shaped brackets might be.

EASA is requiring operators of A380s to perform a detailed visual inspection of aircraft with 1,800 flight cycles or more within four days or 14 flight cycles, whichever occurs first. For A380s with 1,300-1,800 flight cycles, the inspection has to take place within six weeks or 84 flight cycles.

EASA notes that this AD "is considered to be an interim action to immediately address this condition." But, it adds, "further mandatory actions might be considered" as a result of the on-going investigation.

The inspection regime involves draining the wing tanks and opening an access panel. Depending on local rules, the process takes a day or more. A repair action, if deemed necessary, would take several days.

[Desert_Storm]

Seems the big turd is showing its real colors. Long live the majestic B747-800

[SubsonicMortal]

The "Majestic" 747-8 my A$$ (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-locks-out-747-8-tail-fuel-tanks-on-flutter-concerns-367148/)

Can't even get it properly certified. Boeing's had a base model since 1970...

[Reinhardt]

Boeing holds firm orders for 36 747-8 aircraft

One of the biggest success of the history of aviation.

Any news from the EK order ?

[NWSRG]

And I thought that the Airbus v Boeing slanging matches were the reserve of Airliners.net :E

Serious question though...is this the second set of cracks to appear in the A380 wing? First the ribs(s) themselves, and now the rib feet? How big a job will this be to inspect / repair? I see one day mentioned for inspection...is that optimistic? And if a repair is required, I'm guessing each aircraft could be out for a number of weeks?

PS. If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going...unless the fare is cheaper, in which case, I might do a quick risk assessment, and decide to take the chance :}

[falconeasydriver]

Been said before, ALL jets get cracks, I reckon there might be something in the harder landings of the 380, have paxed on it more than a dozen times now, every arrival has been a teeth rattler, it must be such a delight to land on 23R at MAN:E

[ironbutt57]

All airplanes crack, after 3 years in service it's a bit strange though, especially longitudinal cracks along machined pieces..

[ITman]

Sad that the stab tanks (3300 gallons each) cannot be used FAA directive due to flutter issues that will not be resolved by Boeing until 2013. Does EK need a short range / limited payload a/c somehow I doubt it.

[ironbutt57]

Yahh I'd be disappointed if I bought an expensive car just to be told "don't use the rear seat, or the boot" it creates rear wheel hop, but hey, we'll have it sorted on the newer models...:}:}

[White Knight]

Sad that the stab tanks (3300 gallons each) cannot be used FAA directive due to flutter issues that will not be resolved by Boeing until 2013. Does EK need a short range / limited payload a/c somehow I doubt it.

Which A/C are you talking about here?

[ITman]

B747-8i & f

[jackx123]

747-LOL I would call it.

How many design faults hasn't it had that have only been discovered after the a/c, crew and/or pax vanished. Fuel tanks, cargo door, aft pressure lock etc. Just wait for the carbon kite to show its true color.

Can't seem to find a single bus except perhaps the famous 320 outside paris, and still disputed if it was pilot error.

[J.L.Seagull]

For all the best pilots in the world out there, who want some information from a 'simple' engineer, here's something that would hopefully clear up all the misinformation (or disinformation) out there.

No ribs on the A380 ever cracked. Its the RIB FEET (or attachment brackets) that fix the ribs to the wing lower skin that are cracking.

As of now, the four metallic ribs that Airbus claims to be primary structure in the wing don't have any cracks on their feet.

The rest (26, I think) of the CFRP ribs have feet that are cracked. Airbus claims (tongue-in-cheek) that these are secondary structure and give the wing its profile.

Now, to the cracks:

The original type 1 cracks, as they call them, originate from the fastner holes in the horizontal web of the rib feet. i.e. the rib feet are L-shaped in cross section, and the horizontal portion is bolted to the wing lower skin, while the vertical portion of the foot is bolted to the rib. The fastners that join the skin to the feet are an interference fit; so it seems that as the fastners are driven into the holes in the feet, the feet crack. The cracks radiate outwards from the holes. Some cracks have been severe enough to propagate to the edge of the material.

Interestingly, brand new wings (pre-assembly) received in Toulouse from the UK have been found to have multiple cracks. This is "GOOD" news, because it means the cracks are a production issue, and not fatigue related. One proposal from Airbus is to make these holes a clearance fit, as a quick fix. Material expansitivity, flex, etc. will all need to be re-assessed in the long run.

What is worrying are the type 2 cracks, which seem to be fatigue related, but are, thankfully, quite rare as of now. These originate from the edge of the feet, at the corner of the "L" and propogate inwards. Since a lot more research needs to be done to fix this, the quick fix is to replace the cracked feet with new (but still unmodified) ones. A mod program will be out as soon as Airbus figures out what is going on.

Down time for one airplane is around 3-5 days for inspection, and another 10-15 days for repairs (currently done by Airbus personnel).

Those are the facts, as I know them. No airline/manufacturer bashing. :)

[The Turtle]

Airbus Adjusts A380 Assembly Process


Jan 26, 2012

By Robert Wall
http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/ca_images/Airframes/Airbus/a380AIRBUS.jpg Airbus has put in place changes to its A380 wing assembly process as part of its long-term fix to address cracking of wing components, but it also expects most of the A380s already built to require fixes as an interim measure.
Twenty of the more than 60 A380s in service worldwide are affected by a Jan. 20 European Aviation Safety Agency’s (EASA) airworthiness directive (AD) to inspect the aircraft for potential cracks of wing rib-feet. The findings by airline inspections that have unfolded in recent days are “in line with the expectations,” says Airbus Executive VP-Programs Tom Williams. The company expects to see cracks in most A380s already built.
Singapore Airlines, which has the most A380s affected, says four of its aircraft have undergone the process, and “there were findings during each inspection.” Of those, “one aircraft has already undergone repairs and is back in service. Repairs will be carried out before the remaining aircraft are returned to service,” says an airline representative.
The AD requires A380s with 1,800 flight cycles or more to undergo a detailed visual inspection within four days or 14 flight cycles, whichever occurs first. For aircraft with 1,300-1,800 flight cycles, the inspection has to take place within six weeks or 84 flight cycles, according to EASA. Some aircraft not yet affected by the directive because they have a lower number of flight cycles will undergo the process once they reach the EASA threshold or even before if they go into C Checks, Williams notes.
There are enough replacement wing rib-feet available to avoid a parts shortage that could affect the return of the aircraft to service.
At issue is an L-shaped bracket that attaches the wing skin to the ribs. Each wing has about 2,000 L-shaped brackets (30-40 per rib, with 60 ribs per wing), so the failure of one bracket is not seen as a safety issue. EASA says, “This condition, if not detected and corrected, could potentially affect structural integrity of the aeroplane.”
To avoid the problem on new-build aircraft, Airbus is already using shimming to reduce the strain applied when the wing skins are attacked to the ribs, thereby reducing the loads on the wing rib-feet. The gap between wing skin and rib, in the affected area, was about 1.5-2 mm, rather than 0.5 mm, causing unexpected strain on the rib-feet in the lower wing area near Rib 26 and Stringer 21.
Airbus also is changing the material of the part from an aluminum 7449 alloy to a stronger component. The overall effect will be to add 89 kg to the aircraft, Williams says.
Furthermore, Airbus is making changes to the interference fit fasteners because it judged the current arrangement contributory to the damage seen.
The inspection regime the airlines are undertaking involves draining the wing tanks and opening an access panel. Depending on local rules, the process takes a day or more. A repair action, if deemed necessary, can take several days.
Airbus stresses the issue is not a flight safety concern.
As part of the root cause analysis, Airbus instrumented one of its own aircraft to assess whether it had erroneously estimated the loads the wing would bear, leading to the cracks. But the aircraft maker determined that was not the case. EASA notes that this AD “is considered to be an interim action to immediately address this condition.” But, it adds, “Further mandatory actions might be considered” as a result of the ongoing investigation.
Wing changes being introduced on the A380 to boost the maximum takeoff weight to 574 from 569 metric tons should not create a new problem in this area, Airbus believes.

[stillalbatross]

From hazy memory the loss of the horizontal stab by a 707 over Mt Fuji back in the 60's caused Boeing to check all the horizontal stabs on the 707 fleets at the time. 6 aircraft had undetected cracks that would have led to structural failure and since it's the horizontal stab parting company I'd assume the failure would always be catastrophic.

For all the rhetoric on this thread, both manufacturers, in spite of test and development programs, have learnt lessons the hard way.

But can we bash the Brits (who invented aviation as apparently KittyHawk was in Surrey) since they build the wings and deliver them new with cracks?

[Reinhardt]

Yeap, Broughton factory, Hawarden Airport, Wales (UK) - that"s where the AB wings are made.
They are subsequently flown to Toulouse using Beluga aircraft (modified A300-600) for final assembly on Airbus airframes.

Avro used the place to build Lancaster and Wellington during the war, then Hawker-Siddely 125 after.
I landed there a couple of times.
No regular airline does fly to that piece of (nice) countryside.

[White Knight]

But can we bash the Brits (who invented aviation as apparently KittyHawk was in Surrey) since they build the wings and deliver them new with cracks?

And there was me thinking that KittyHawk was actually Bondi Beach and the first powered flight was by Bruce and Wayne Wright - the famous Sydney bicycle makers:D:D:D

[donpizmeov]

B@gga off, Bruce and Wayne were in charge of the sheep dip.

the Don

[GoreTex]

good one WK :D

[falconeasydriver]

donpizmeov B@gga off, Bruce and Wayne were in charge of the sheep dip


Not quite accurate, Bruce and Wayne was actually one person, he dressed up in shiney boots and fought and illegal war on behalf of a shady character called "Commissioner Gordon".
The Wrights on the other hand grew up in rural NSW, logged 47000000 hrs each on light twins before joining EK in the training dept, and inventing space travel :E

[donpizmeov]

Falcon, I am surprised that you of all people would be belittling small aeroplane drivers. :E

The Don

[White Knight]

logged 47000000 hrs each on light twins before joining EK in the training dept, and inventing space travel

Oh the hilarity:ok::}:ok: That had me choking on my cup of tea!

[jackx123]

Seems the carbon kite has just cracked up as per my previous post. Further production delays to be expected by Boing (or is it Boeing) :}

[clear to land]

And now it EVERY 380-surprise. And yes the 787 is also having issues.....