--First Job as Pilot--

[santom]

Hello guys, I am a little bit confused about the situation to become a pilot for profession. I am speaking with many schools and all are saying the business and the opportunities are good and they will double in the next 4 years, so I thought to change my current profession and become a pilot a full time working in the airlines. Well this is what I have thought, but I am readying very “nasty" things from the airlines for First Officers without any experience. Well like having the first job.

I am hearing 80% of airlines are changing the “new guys/Pilots” for training and also for flying, like been force to pay to have a job… Is it the reality? If yes we are doing back to slavery, well must worse than that, been “force” to pay 20k or more to be able to work.

I would like to ask to the forum, is this true? Its really happening this?

[Halfbaked_Boy]

You are absolutely right, and it's refreshing to see somebody from outside aviation express shock at this situation, because it's sort of been accepted as the norm for a lot of new starters...

[santom]

I really can’t believe what I am hearing and I really don’t understand why. Flying a plane is not driving a car and also to become a taxi driver “normally” you have to pay for the service… I am not comparing a taxi driver with a pilot, but force me to think that way and worse, the taxi driver is been pay for the service but been a pilot, oh well…. This is very very nasty, people are paying a bloody fortune for PPL and CPL and others and at the end they have to pay much much more for having the first job. What happening on these days…. Is this the real what I am saying?

[FlyEGNT]

That's why I stopped training for commercial after gaining my ppl. I refuse to pay many thousands of pounds to someone to do a job for them. I feel much happier now that I don't have the pressure of "How am I going to fly for a living" hanging over me. I have a decent 9-5 job and I can fly when I choose. Not some mug who is bankrupt because of "a dream".

[PosClimb]

I am speaking with many schools and all are saying the business and the opportunities are good and they will double in the next 4 years


What do you think they're going to tell you?

They need your money to pay their bills and stay in business.

Private vocational schools are renowned for engaging in somewhat dodgy sales tactics... it's not just flying schools, it's the whole private 'for profit' vocational school system.

The industry is cyclical though... the best time to start training is at the bottom of a down turn, so you can finish hopefully at the beginning of the up turn.

I will grant that fact.

[santom]

I understand the flying schools have their own business but as a business they should be honest to everyone. Is that why I have found this website, very useful, to understand and do a SWOT analysis about the current situation and also the future as well.

I will not pay to an airline to have a job, this is wrong, very wrong. My graduates are been paid to do their job, learn and work as a team in an organisation. I am very very surprised finding out that to have experience and work for an airline as FO needs to pay for having a job that job.

I still can’t believe it….. It’s terrible…

[PosClimb]

I'm sorry to say it, but if you're an "idealistic" type of person, you and the aviation industry are not going to mix well.

You will become disillusioned very fast with the reality.

Aviation is unlike any industry you will have ever experienced before; it has a culture and a logic all of its own. It often defies any sense of reason, common sense.

[santom]

I am a little bit sad you are thinking like that about my person. I just what to understand and do the maths, I will not pay a full course to be qualify and then I still have to pay to have a job.

Is that why I am asking to this forum this question, right…. Is not been idealistic, is been careful about my money and my professional situation.

I hope you can understand that.

[pudoc]

Not some mug who is bankrupt because of "a dream"

Good thing you went elsewhere. Probably no rooms for epaulettes with that chirp on your shoulder.

[BerksFlyer]

Santom,

If only everyone looking to get into the "career" took the same approach as you. The sad thing is that so many people will stop at nothing to become a pilot. It is largely the fault of training schools. Looking ahead, the benefits of being a pilot will eventually disappear and it will just be any other no-degree-required job - maybe worse due to p2f. People like Michael O'Leary have succeeded in their vendetta against the profession.

We need to remember that it really is just a job at the end of the day. Nobody else pays to work. If nobody signed up for these things they would disappear.

[Bealzebub]

Unfortunetaly, Santom a lot of people are woefully naive. They are attracted by the view from the top of the pyramid, but fail to appreciate the enormous difficulty and attrition rate involved in climbing it.

Flying schools are bound to be outwardly optimistic. If I had one, I would be as well. There is nothing wrong with that. Estate agents (realtors) are always optimistic about the future prospects of their sales portfolio. Car dealers are optimistic about how much joy and value the vehicle they are selling will bring to their potential clients. Nobody selling anything is likely to say anything that will put a customer off. Hand over your cash, and your intangible perceptions are your problem, not theirs. So embedded is this sales culture in our society it is hard to feel sorry for those who later blame all their woes on it.

Once kitted out with this training, many people discover the journey to the top of the pyramid involves other attributes that they hadn't given much prior consideration to. For example: ability; money; luck; stamina; adaptability. If they had done enough research, they would have found no end of people willing to point out the potential pitfalls and the realities. However few people do, and then are truly surprised that their journey often ends before it has really begun, because they thought that the "training kit" was all they needed.

For those that make it further up the pyramid, they often discover that the "kit" that they had got for such a bargain, turns out not to be quite as efficient as they hoped it had been. Others discover that "expensive kit" doesn't turn you into an athlete just because it makes you look like one.

For the crestfallen and weary, there are salesmen who have set up shop at various levels of the pyramid to sell you things you had forgotten all about at the start of your journey. Some of them will sell you an illusion of your destination. Some will sell you an idea that you can take a shortcut. In fact there is an entire industry devoted to the crowds who struggle on. Unfortunetaly, for the poor planners and the hopelessly equipped, it is often a short term respite from what turns out to be an incomplete and crowded journey to somewhere far short of the pinnacle they aspired to.

For the lucky few, and those who planned their journey carefully and took advice from knowledgeable guides, there can be shortcuts and far better prospects of reaching the pinnacle. Those few still need luck, ability and all the right "kit" but they research carefully and make sure they are financially fit, and properly equipped to embark on the journey ahead. They make sensible provision for the most likely setbacks.

For the few who make it to the pinnacle, the rewards on offer reflect the fact that it is still quite crowded up there. The view often turns out to be less breathtaking than they had imagined, but at least it qualifies them to start a new journey on the "pinnacle members only" pyramid next door.

Is it full of nasty people forcing you into slavery? No! There are a few nasty people to be found, but like wilderbeast at a watering hole, it is an environment rich for the natural predators for whom the legions of the naive are simply a resource. Every year, the lure of the view from the pinnacle, keeps hoards returning to attempt the new climb.

Many people think they get their licence and there is a "job" waiting for them with the airlines (the apex of the pyramid). For the lucky few there are apprenticeships, placements, internships, and job related training opportunities. These are often fast track career programmes towards the sought after position. Just as in the legal and medical and many other professions, that often involves a great deal of extra financial outlay, as well as years of low wages, insecurity of tenure and tough operating conditions. Such is the price often associated with the fast track opportunity.

Then there are those who work their way up methodically and slowly, often taking much longer and sometimes taking detours along the way.

In either case, those who reach the pinnacle and many who don't, often discover that the huge pyramid is actually made up of the spent carcasses of the unlucky, ill prepared, or just simply naive travellers that went before them.

So no, there is no "force" and there is no "slavery", just lots and lots of hopefulls. Some have the ability, resource and luck. Most don't! A lot are attracted by the idea of the climb, few are prepared for the reality of just how arduous it really is.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Bealzebub


BANG ON!

Could not put it better myself. :ok:

[-c206-]

Bealzebub

WOW!! Great post!

[4015]

:D

Fantastic post!

[felixflyer]

You obviously have a career already. I would forget about quitting and going full time unless you have the money to spare and could easily go back to your current job after training, whilst looking for that first flying job.

Why not do a PPL and then some flying and the CPL/IR etc whilst keeping your currnet job. If you want to do this because you enjoy flying then you will have a great time doing the training and hour building etc. Flying an airliner is not the most interesting flying there is out there. So many people seem to treat the whole training route to fATPL as an inconvenient necessity that needs to be done as quickly and easily as possible.

You can actually have some great experiences whilst going through the route to the fATPL and I really think some people miss out on these. During my hour building I went to the USA and flew across a large part of the USA visiting places I would never have been to if it wasnt for the fact that there was and airfield there. I flew with a couple of mates from the UK down to Barcelona for a weekend. Took a few people flying that had never actually flown before and saw the look on their faces (Some good, some not so good:yuk:). I also met lots of people at various airfileds and got to ride in various aircraft.

Once I get my IR I will continue flying the aircraft I have a share in, but will be able to do some real touring throughout Europe. I have made a few contacts that might help me get a job in the future as well.

I have not had to get any loans as I have kept working throughout and if I never fly an airliner it wont be the end of the world. I will always have my CPL/IR and will continue to fly my aircraft just for the fun of it.

I guess what I am saying is, if you want to do this because you want to fly then go ahead. You will definately fly, even if it isnt in the front of a jet. If however you want to do this purely to be an 'airline pilot' then you may be best looking at taking time out from work and trying to get on some kind of scheme with an airline or large FTO. This will require a big chunk of money though and I would advise against getting any monster loans or betting your house on it.

The whole industry, like others works on supply and demand. At the moment there is a lot more supply of newly qualified pilots than the airlines need. This is why they can get away with charging them to work. IF this changes then things may be different.

Good luck whatever you chose, I would however get a medical and maybe a few lessons before making any decisions.

[Kyriakos]

"the best time to start training is at the bottom of a down turn, so you can finish hopefully at the beginning of the up turn"

...How many times i ve heard that since 2008 nobody knows... :ugh:

The question is...are we ever gonna be able to get on that wheel without paying entry fees (type rating & hours) ?

[de facto]

Bealzebub,
You seem to have defined quite well what i went through and felt until i finally got that work break..
A licence,whether modular or integrated route is just the beginning of a very long journey...
Very few make it to the jet at the very early stage,the rest struggle trying to make it through the seemingly unstoppable obstacles possibly leading to that initial goal of theirs.
My climb of the pyramid seems somehow easy even though it did require hard work,sacrifice and determination.
Would i do it again?the way to the left seat of a jet was a great experience and i still love my job,so yes.
I started blinded by the idea of reaching the top not really knowing how,ill prepared,but finally made it to my pyramid top...and for this i feel fortunate.
I feel for those whose dream wont work out..but such is life.

[500 above]

Im glad your thinking sensibly...

"the best time to start training is at the bottom of a down turn, so you can finish hopefully at the beginning of the up turn"

...How many times i ve heard that since 2008 nobody knows...

The question is...are we ever gonna be able to get on that wheel without paying entry fees (type rating & hours) ?

Out of 10 newly qualified CPL/IR-MCC's in your Country, 8 probably pay for their own TR. Glad you're not one of them. I'm sure you are aware of the chap that paid for a B738 TR and tried to get in with a Cypriot operator to no avail. He then purchased an Airbus 320 TR and tried with Cyprus Airways, Aegean etc. still no job. Most end up with no jet job.

There is presently one in North Africa who has paid for a 738 TR and 500 line hours...

Get an instructors rating and build time and experience. Only do this if you are dedicated to instruction whilst you are doing it. Do the best you can and keep learning. You have age on your side.

[VFE]

As a genuine career move I think that of commercial pilot is pointless for any person bar the extremely well off. Sad to say it's become a payola - flights schools are in cahoots with airlines and they're the only ones getting richer. The pilots in the meantime have to sell an arm and a leg to get into what is fast becoming an impossible industry to break into.

The dream of flying high above the clouds comes with so many pitfalls for the beginner now that anyone with a modicum of common sense would avoid the idea completely. SSTR's have become de rigour and most know that unless you go to one of the two big FTO's you won't stand a cats chance in hell of landing that first airline job (unless you're related to someone high up).

For those who do not come from an integrated background from the big two, HR (Human Remains) departments now decide who's going to land an interview and who will not. In the old days if you had a few beers with the chief pilot he'd soon know whether your face would fit or not. At the end of the day we all have the same peice of paper so how do you sift through the applicants? Equal Opportunities - that's how. I have no sexist/racist axe to grind but that is how it is folks so accept it now rather than when you are £100K out of pocket.

Anyone who thinks what I write is rubbish is more than welcome to volunteer a different picture. As someone who has been looking for 8 years for that elusive 'big break' I can honestly say that I am not alone, and that if truth be told - things are actually a lot grimmer than I make out. If you are a gambling man with £100K of disposable cash then go for it - for the rest I would suggest you look at other career options and get a PPL.

[Kyriakos]

Red Banner well done for making it without downgrading our industry mate! You are another good example of being on the right spot at the right time. :ok:

500 Above, I would say 9/10. Unfortunatelly this is a sad fact ...on the other hand i cannot blame them. They have daddys' financial capabity to purchase their way up and jump on the top shelf... It is what it is and theres nothing we can do about it. I would disagree that age is on my side though...30 is getting close and being outside the industry for a such a long time you become rusty and hard to compete fresh chaps....

Instructing is always a good start but i have to wait a bit longer for Aegean's plans as im on the stand-by list... Cyprus is more like a mission impossible so i have my eyes and ears open for opportunities anywhere in the world with the lowest possible requirements.

[Kyriakos]

Guess we ll just have to keep trying and wish for better days to come mate...
As you said connections is vital especially in this industry since the slightest wisper of an opportunity might get you on the wheel...

Thanks and best of luck to you as well!

[500 above]

Instructing is always a good start but i have to wait a bit longer for Aegean's plans as im on the stand-by list... Cyprus is more like a mission impossible so i have my eyes and ears open for opportunities anywhere in the world with the lowest possible requirements.

It's not impossible mate. It can and does happen without paying for it. (flying, not chicks ;) )

Did you learn at LCA or PFO?

[Galloping]

Hi Santom,

From my experience the hardest part of becoming a pilot is not the training itself but getting a job at the end of it without paying for a type rating.

I found pilot training challenging but very enjoyable and passed all exams on first attempt. But once training is over and you've obtained your frozen atpl -reality can strike with a bang.

In my case I qualified in mid 2008. Didn't have the means to finance a type rating and didnt want the burden of a 30k+ loan.

I worked for two years in flight ops for an airline as an attempt at another avenue into the industry. But alas the airline started its own pay to fly scheme which I didn't partake in.

I've since given up on the aviation industry and reverted back to my original career which i qualified at "pre pilot training".

The reality was that those in my class who had financial backing from parents obtained jobs. All in this case were with Ryanair! Those that weren't in a position to finance a type rating including myself have not flown passengers ever commercially!

However, maybe I should consider myself one of the lucky ones to have escaped the industry. It was only this week that I heard of Ryanair pilots having to pay to park at their respective airport bases on top of everything else there paying for already!

They say far away hills are greener. In my case I'm now glad I'm far away from the aviation industry. It's a money pit!

If you feel the desire to enter this industry still. Go in with eyes wide open and wallet tightly secured!

[500 above]

Read this from another thread, same forum. This is today's attitude. Paying for LHS next? Disgusting behaviour from the play station generation...

For the last time it looks like, the preferences of many airlines are going a wrong way in employing first officers. Every airline is trying to cut the costs and I already know several companies employing on right seat pilots, who are flying for free or even paying for that. My last company did the same last summer, one previous company where I was working has started doing the same. I was fired during the crises and instead of taking back experienced pilots they give a chance to low timers without any experience, because they don't get a salary. One day there will be a thousands of pilots who goes tru this way and the airlines keeps the costs low by paying for the captains only. Why nobody offers for example the program for experienced F/O to get captains trainig and get 500hrs as a captain? There are no jobs for B737/A320 for experienced F/O except something in China and the reason is simple as I'm describing here. I already have qualifications and enough hours on type to be qualified as a captain, but my airline has a seniority system like many others and a waiting time is more than 5 years or maybe even more today.

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/473307-experienced-b737-f-o-unemployable.html

Think before you pay. You could/will be doing someone out of a job, then the same WILL happen to you.

[Ojah]

Flying has always been a dream of mine. I am not one to dive into situations uninformed and from my observations over the past few years, I have come to the following conclusions;

Pilots with little experience have become cogs in the corporate machine and are very disposable.

Self funding through flight school (CTC/OAA) has a high probability of producing broken dreams. The flight school may boast high employment rates, but these are often short term positions with low cost carriers that end in unemployment and the need for additional training at your expense.

The only way to safely enter the profession from scratch is through a fully sponsored ATPL scheme such as BA FPP. At least then you are guaranteed employment with a decent airline.

To what extent do people agree with my conclusions? I am currently going through university with 1 year to go. At present, I think I will apply for the BA FPP upon graduation. If I am selected, excellent. If not, I have a degree to fall back on and would not entertain the idea of self funding myself.

[Bealzebub]

Self funding through flight school (CTC/OAA) has a high probability of producing broken dreams. I am afraid you need more than just dreams. You need to do some serious research and have realistic expectations and back up plans. The organisations you quote in fact are likely to be the best source of achieving your ambitions, depending on what those ambitions are, coupled with your ability, resource, timing and luck.

The only way to safely enter the profession from scratch is through a fully sponsored ATPL scheme such as BA FPP. At least then you are guaranteed employment with a decent airline.

No, I am afraid that you are guaranteed nothing. The scheme is in fact a variation of other long running affiliation cadet schemes through exactly the same organisations you paradoxically suggest as "producing broken dreams," in the first paragraph. In fact the scheme is a good one, but success is still conditional on many factors both within and outside of your control. Again you are guaranteed nothing, and any loans or borrowing are at your risk.

I am currently going through university with 1 year to go. At present, I think I will apply for the BA FPP upon graduation. If I am selected, excellent. If not, I have a degree to fall back on and would not entertain the idea of self funding myself. You would be self funding in any event. Only if the conditional offer of employment at the conclusion is realised will some of the costs be refunded to you on a non inflationary basis over a period of around 7 years. This scheme may help you to secure the borrowing if you are unable to secure it yourself, but it is still your borrowing, and the sums are very large. The training risks are also yours. Similar schemes are offered with other airlines, but the number of such offers is very low as a percentage of the overall market.

If you see only one cadet scheme as being acceptable, then go for it, and good luck. However I would point out that the odds of success are very small, and competition is fierce. By ruling out alternatives you have already diminished the probability of success to very low levels. Obviously you accept that, and just like filling in a lottery ticket...Fingers crossed!