Hong Kong Schooling, is your child primary 1 Sep 2012?

[flyingkiwi]

We are just wondering if there are any other Hong Kong based CX staff having trouble getting their children into an affordable international school, our child starts primary 1 in September. We did not get any ESF interviews (Cathay covers 90 per cent of these school) we applied to 3 ESF (yes we applied when we should have) and are currently number 700 on the list at one, 430 at another (in our zone) and 230 at another. We have applied to 4 other 75 per cent covered schools, we got accepted into one but the fees are $125 thousand per year (CX covers 75 per cent of this ) plus we have an annual capital levy of $50.000 that has no subsidy from CX.

There is another CX staff in our building who also did not get any ESF interviews (90 per cent covered by CX) for the coming school year primary one. The guy we spoke to in our building that is in our position also said he’s looking elsewhere for a job as he’s not prepared for the family separation if he has to send his family home to be schooled.

We have also found another family who came back to HK for a command and was told that they could have a place at the Aussie school if they paid the 1 million dollar debenture.

We have been HK based CX staff for 10 years and have had our daughter on international school lists that are not ESF for over 2 years. The school fees with the CX help are achievable but the increasing capital levies and debentures (not CX subsidised) are getting beyond our reach. Or if you have not had your child on the list for over 18 months to 2 years you have no chance of a place in the current school climate.

We have spoken with a union rep but schooling is way down on the list, so
We would appreciate any feedback from guys whom are in the same position or could be in the same position. What’s your plan? Thanks for your time, its most appreciated.

[AAIGUY]

Advise your family leave HK
and this nonsense.

Move to Phuket- enroll them in PIA

Great school- clean air- much nicer people to deal
with- proper expat culture.

You commute.

You'll never look back. Lots of CX guys there now
doing the same. Time to leave HK to the Chinese.

[Berry McCockner]

flyingkiwi,
check your pm's

[Bob Hawke]

Penang Malaysia is also a good option to consider too.

[Mr Hankey]

I find it hard to believe that you know of a family who came to HK from Australia and they were not offered a place in AISHK. They have a policy of always accepting the children of people who come to HK mid term.
If you are Australian you do not need to pay a levy, just the $10,000 January ripoff. I have never heard of them not accepting an Australian child who applied at the "right time".
As for ESF, there is a shortage that the HK government wont publicly acknowledge (must not provide whitey, i mean English, education in the glorious workers paradise).

[flyingkiwi]

Mr Hankey

would you like the persons contact number, The school did have a change of heart and told them if they donated a very large figure they would find a place for there child. (try 7 figures)

You are very out of touch, the Aussie school capital levy is now 13k per year (not covered by education allowance) and there is a waiting list.. they cant let you in just because your an aussie or kiwi if there are no more spaces.

and as for a big secret about lack of positions in ESF would you like me to link the articles in both the standard and scmp on this issue.

If people are having similar problems PM me, i need some more ammo, the AOA has said they are not interested as it affects such a small %, ie only those with kids just hitting schooling age, but i feel this is a massive issue and one that anyone contemplating returning to HK for a command better check into as its hard enough getting a 5 year old into a school but from what we are hearing getting an older kid in is next to impossible.

[Al Fakhem]

We had our two sons at Kellett School for Primary 1 through 3, then - as this was a much cheaper alternative which also offered more sports and other outdoor opportunities - enrolled them at Australian boarding schools. Never looked back.

[whackthemole]

enrolled them at Australian boarding schools. Never looked back.

at your kids?

[flyingkiwi]

Al i have no issue with the Aussie school but if you tried to enrol them today, you would be fat out of luck

[Iron Skillet]

What he said. :D

[Forward CofG]

I have to agree with turnandburn.

Why have you only put your child's name down 2 years prior to starting school?What were you doing for the 2-3 years earlier? If you have been here for 10 years you should have known that schooling is an issue and to put him/her down as soon as possible (as soon as they have a birth certificate).

I do feel for your situation, but it is through choices you made. It's not the AOA's fault. Although , maybe as part as a welcome/new joiners pack, it can be emphasized how hard it is to get children into school in Hong Kong and use your case as an example.

Good luck

[Arrowhead]

I am planning to cross the PRD to HKA as DE Capt A330, but am struggling:

1) Wife wont live in a highrise shoebox
2) Schools want HK$70k/child to fast track the lists
3) HKA does not subsidise schools/accomodation
4) Total HKA pay is HK$120k-ish gross, from which to pay school and accom.

I am not a magician, so if anyone knows one, please can you help me find a way to square this circle? On paper, HKA looks like a good long-term career move, but if I cant find school places and somewhere to live I am stuck....

[Captain Dart]

All I can suggest is invent a time machine, go back to the 1980's or early nineties and join Cathay Pacific. That's when they paid A Scale; this and the other expat benefits made these problems go away.

A continuous succession of pilots undercutting their forebears, the latest being the CX iCadets, is making expat aviation careers in Hong Kong untenable.

You could consider commuting from elsewhere in Asia. Maybe there are other PPRuNers with the gen on living in Macau.

Good luck.

[CokeZero]

flyingkiwi

I understand your predicament and it not only effects you but everyone else who has tried to enroll their kids in school. Or better yet - has there kids in school.

One thing that everyone seems to miss is the standard of education that is being offered for their kids. The schools are hard to get into but the standard of teaching in HK has fallen dramatically over the last 10-15 years. When a friend of mine was head hunted for a teaching position here 20 years ago the standard was very high. Now-a-days the standard she said has fallen because of limited slots and pay reductions, eroded over time. She left HK a year or to ago because she could not morally accept what was happening to the education system in HK. She was in a private school that had a huge proportion of Ex-Pat kids in it. Little pay increases, longer hours, constantly undermined my the new teachers that had little or no education or teaching experience. (Reminds me of another industry).

Standards in teaching has fallen over time in HK.

I for one have hired a private teacher to education my children. I will be sending to a boarding school overseas to receive a better education when they reach the appropriate age.

Would I leave my job to help my kids get a better education?? Good question. I would take my kids out of HK to get them a better education.

CZ

[broadband circuit]

If you know any expat teachers in HK (as I do), ask them about the erosion of their T & Cs over the years. In exactly the same way as airline bean counters have attacked our T & Cs, teachers & probably a number of other professionals, have been devalued.

If you know any teacher employed by ESF, ask them their opinion of their CEO. The comments will be stronger than comments by CX pilots about the current CX CEO. In fact the sheer contempt they have for their CEO has very scary parallels to some of the opinions we had of a previous CEO, initials DT.

[flyingkiwi]

Hang on,

We applied to 7 schools.

3 ESF schools during the only month last year they were open for applications. We are 700 on one list, 430 on another and 230 on another. No interviews. We are permanent residents, so this is not a factor as some may think. We are 430 on a list at a school that is zoned solely for our area.

CX offers 90 percept subsidies for these schools.

The other 4 schools, 75 per cent subsidy

Aussie school - $1500.00 HK dollars gets you on the list for 2 years prior to starting.

Harrow - $1000 dollars got us an interview with Fees $125000 per year and a capital levy of $50000 yearly. That’s nearly an extra $5000.00 0n top 25% per month we will pay.

South Lantau primary- We have gone from 19 to 33rd place school that takes only 12 new students because of other priorities. By the way then where?

The 4th well there is a possibility of getting onto there waiting list for a place after the interview, we have had our daughter on this list for 3.5 years. Again the fees are $150000 per year with a levy.

You ask what are we doing with our money? Probably the same as you, but why should you be paying $1000 dollars a month for school fees at ESF plus bus when the guy next door is paying levy’s and getting a 75 per cent subsidy for his school in this current climate, it’s hard to get into the ESF school. Discovery collage and the Aussie school are nearly on par in yearly fees not including the Aussie school levy.

The above people have obviously got their kids into a school so therefore please refrain from your rude banter we are doing everything we can to exhaust our options.
You may even have your child in the ESF system so are getting the cheap ride under the CX school scheme that some of us have not the privilege in having.

I have posted this because I would like to see if there are any others in the same position as us so that we can solve it together. My wife and children are important, I am hoping to have them not go back to our homeland and become a commuter. We enjoy our life in Hong Kong if you’re not happy at CX then leave; your rude comments are not needed here.

[Darling]

Yep, sure am in the same predicament - wait for the high school gig, it just starts all over again.

[Iron Skillet]

Maybe all this unnecessary reproduction isn't such a great idea for those who would like to have a nice career, live in a nice home in a nice place, enjoy their lives and make enough money to retire well before dying?

[Busbert]

Just another of the hidden costs of that 'enviable expat lifestyle'.
Add to that the endless trips to the GP for antibiotics and asthma inhalers for the kids.

We left HKG last year after 10 years as we couldn't justify the impact that it was having on our kid's health and education (and I was sick of the same dream nonsense). Our kids were in ESF schools, and frankly, the standard of education was very average indeed.

Certainly many colleagues sent the wife and kids 'home' - an unthinkable option for us.

[hongkongfooey]

" nice home in a nice place ", you're obviously not talking about HK

[Iron Skillet]

Obviously. And certainly not on C scale/10K/24K housing.

[Arrowhead]

Well at least CX pays 75%. Pity the other local airline pilots who get ZERO.

:{

[SloppyJoe]

I don't pity anyone who signed a contract, just to be sure have they removed housing from the contract you signed with the other airline in HKG? If they have that is terrible and you should fight to get it back or leave. If it was never there in the first place :confused:

[F_one]

There education is paramount.

There are millions of chinese not 20 km from here trying to get there kids educated here.

Hopefully you got your kids a better education than yours. Try "their":{:{:{

[flyingkiwi]

Learn to read, we did the research, we applied when we had too, our kids have not failed there interviews, they have not been offered interviews. Going by your argument because an apartment was brought during SARS for 2mil a new joiner today could buy the same one for 2mil.... Times change and regarding schooling if you read any newspaper you will read that only in the last 12-18 months the schools have become extremely overfilled, so of course hundreds of pilots before us have not had an issue but from the PMs I have received it definitely is now.

Last time I checked ESF nor other schools accepted bribes so unless you think paying a 400000 debenture at discovery college is what we should all be doing to get our kids into school then you are as self-conceited as you come across.

Regarding selection at ESF they use a lottery system to select candidates for interviews we hand delivered our applications on the first day they were open.

So if you don't like the current RP's, or housing do you just pack up and go home or do you raise the subject so that it can be addressed, my post is aimed at getting further evidence of others in the same situation so we can maybe convince the AOA and the company this is an issue.

Thanks for the PMs please keep them coming.

[nike]

my post is aimed at getting further evidence of others in the same situation so we can maybe convince the AOA and the company this is an issue.


Hypothetically.....

If you did convince the company that it is an issue, what is the solution?

i.e.
What is the next step, and the step after that?
What do you want the company to do with regards to the HK Schooling system?

(not having a go if you're trying to read tone into this post, am I very interested in this subject)

[flyingkiwi]

Good question,

There are a number of issues, the ESF was always the affordable choice ie you were always certain of getting into the likes of Kowloon junior (this school being in our zone, to date we are 430 on the list, their are 90 siblings this year to be placed at KJS for 160 slots) , it is 90% covered with no capital fees or debenture. Now this choice is closed unless lucky enough to be selected for an interview one has to look at either paying a 400000 debenture for the likes of discovery college(non refundable) or go to a school with high fees and a capital levy on top of the fees.(Cx don't include capital levies in there fees.)

Possible solution options
Provide 90% for any school as the choice of Esf has been taken away
Include capital levies in the 90%
If the school offers a refundable debenture then provide an interest only loan.
If the school offers a non refundable debenture, then offer an interest free loan for full amount not just the current 30k,

This would allow people to look at other options out of ESF system.

[F_one]

Learn to read, we did the research, we applied when we had too, our kids have not failed there interviews

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

THEIR!!!!!

[turnandburn]

//////////.

[F_one]

this school being in our zone, to date we are 430 on the list, their are 90 siblings this year to be placed at KJS for 160 slots

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

This one should be "there".

Ironic that the thread on schooling shows that nobody knows the difference between "there" and "their".

[Dan Winterland]

I think the point is that pilots want to send there kids to better schools than wot we went to.

[Iron Skillet]

If you want to reproduce, how about you take care of your kids' education yourself, just like everyone else has to? I don't see why it is the company's or the AOA's responsibility to ensure your descendents receive the expensive and private education of your liking.

The company has a policy with good and bad points, just like all their policies, that may or may not suit your personal choices and circumstances. Deal with matters as per the policy or find another company with a policy that suits you. If you think a policy change is in order and a properly documented campaign for change has any hope of success, I suggest that Pprune is not the proper avenue.

Also, the more you reproduce, and the more you expect increasing sums of money from the company to fund your personal lifestyle decisions, the less profit the company will make. That means less money and profit for everyone else, particularly those who choose not to reproduce or do not have school-age kids in Hong Kong (approximately 50-75% of pilots?) so I am not convinced you would find much support to take more money from their pockets to put into yours.

[Harbour Dweller]

I don't see why it is the company's or the AOA's responsibility to ensure your descendents receive the expensive and private education of your liking.

I'd wouldn't class the ESF system as a Private School education.

A shortage to school positions is going to present a real issue to CX families in the future. We are only just seeing the beginning.

[Frogman1484]

Iron skillet. I'm sorry to say so...your point is the most simplistic and dimmest point I have read on prune for a long time. I bet in your superficial life everything boil down to money! I really feel sorry for you and for your sad single life.

[Busbert]

Strangely enough, when Airbus had problems with mobility of its own English speaking staff to Toulouse, they funded and built their own international school. So company intervention is not entirely without precedent. :cool:

[ASH1111]

Wow, who is this Iron Skillet guy? "Reproduce" man brother, get a life. They aren't reproductive cells, they are our kids. Every child we have is a gift from God. Deal with it.

"Bye Honey! I'm off to take our reproductions to School."

Butthead.

[badairsucker]

Well said ash,

Iron skillet is clearly a man who cannot reproduce.

IS, you really are a tool.

[Iron Skillet]

Well said Ash? Name calling and incorrect knowledge of science is rewarded with compliments?

1. All plants and animals reproduce. It's not rocket science, or a gift from whichever of the 2000+ gods man has created: It's just evolution. (Before anyone starts this again, any opposing personal opinion about evolution is as invalid and irrelevant as your opinion about gravity, atomic structure and heliocentrism, etc.)
2. Assumptions and opinions about my single vs. married status, reproductive history and reproductive capability are also irrelevant.
3. Were all child-free people living "superficial" lives until they reproduced, or after they discovered they were unable to reproduce? Your own life before kids, or if your kids died, or if you can't have any, had/has no value to you or others around you?
4. Is it only through reproduction that someone's life is elevated in value from such "superficial" lack of meaning as those who have not reproduced?
5. Yes, money can buy happiness: It buys shelter, nutrition, health care, entertainment and security. And yes, more money can buy more happiness, if the things you need and/or want for happiness cost money, and they all do. Note that I said "can buy happiness" which does not equal "will buy happiness." Conversely, a lack of money cannot buy happiness. I believe this thread contains several dollar amounts and the parents' concern over the cost of schooling.
6. Yes, my point was very simple: If you want to raise new humans, that is each person's choice and their responsibility. As a society, we have agreed to all share the financial burden of your choice to a large extent already. The company does provide some assistance at great cost that many do not benefit from in other ways, and in fact accept a financial burden in taxation and reduced profits. Choosing to leave your country (for money, incidentally...) and its social support network is also each individual's choice. Some relief is made available by the company, some is not. I say: Deal with it.
7. If the company has problems getting and retaining employees because of this issue, they will do something about it, as they do with housing in HKG (whichever deal, if it's enough for their plans, not yours).
8. Yes, like most with common sense, I am aware that reproductive cells are not kids, and that kids are not reproductive cells (other than before/at conception), but pairing up males and females to create new humans is certainly called reproduction (online dictionaries are available). Despite your apparent confusion and lack of scientific comprehension, even reproduced humans aren't any more of a gift from god (whichever you like to imagine) than the horse's or sparrow's or worm's or lobster's offspring (bacteria too!), no matter how much you love and want and enjoy your kids.
9. Are all the young soldiers coming home without genitals, and other victims of violence, disease or medical issues, also going to be called "Tools" and "Buttheads" and "superficial" by you guys, since they "obviously can't reproduce?"

Sounds to me like a whole bunch of people shouldn't be too proud of reproducing their genetic traits and are probably raising an entitled and mean generation of science deniers.

So, back to the school system and education allowance thing now?

[etrang]

"Reproduce" man brother, get a life. They aren't reproductive cells, they are our kids. Every child we have is a gift from God.

Well, man brother, if that's true then Iron Skillet is by your definition also a "gift from god". So you should treat him with a bit more respect or god may get angry and send various plagues after you and your reproductions.

[flyingkiwi]

Some examples
Fees divided by 12 not 10 as some school pay schedules are.

Aussie school

Fees $97500 per year (to which you will pay $24375 per year plus tax) (75% sub)
Yearly Levy $13500 (no subsidy, non-refundable)
Bus from lantau area $3000 per month ($36000 per year NO subsidy)

Total $6156.25 per child per month plus the tax of your fees

ESF primaries except Renaissance and Discovery collage as they have higher fees. (The preferred road by many due to the cost)

Fees $63000 per year (to which you pay $6300.00 plus tax per year) (90% sub)
Bus from lantau to KJS for an example $1400.00 per month (16800 per year No subsidy)

Total $1925.00 per month plus the tax of your fees
plus
Refundable capital levy of $25000 one off

Harrow

Fees $125000 per year (to which you pay $31250 per year plus tax) (75% sub)
Yearly Levy $50000 (no subsidy, non-refundable)
Bus from Lantau $1400 per month (16800 per year No subsidy)

Total $8170.00 per month plus the tax of your fees


Now here are more points

Point 1-

The current CX education allowance could be reviewed because of the following
Getting an interview at a 90 per cent subsidized school is very difficult (The preferred road by many due to the cost)

Some more examples
800 applications at Renaissance College for 160 spots
All ESF primary 1 combined not including Renaissance or Discovery - 2300 applications for 1020 spots for 2012

Point 2-

The following would be fair to many but probably not those already in the ESF and as turnandburn pointed out they will be the ones who get there subsidy decreased, should the company reduce the 90 percent.

Make the subsidy the same across the board
Include the yearly levies as a fee

To quote you turnandburn “You may open a can of worms and get offered less in the long term. Everything I have seen from them in the past has reduced benefits over time. An example change the system to cover all schools but only 80%”

You could just tell us all what school system your kids are in and then give us an account of what you did to get there, one application or did you apply to many, did you educate them in the right pre-school perhaps?, maybe give us all some insightful knowledge.

Point 3 –

In this current climate, education is one of the most stress full components to living in Hong Kong for families and the CX education allowance was negotiated many years ago. (If you know when I would like to know)

However TIMES HAVE CHANGED

Iron Skillet - I would like to quote you on another part of the forum
“the AOA takes years to send a rarely-effective email about anything”

This gets to my 4th point – I have had a pm from an AOA GC asking me to submit our research, which I want to do.
The AOA have other issues to deal with and like the PM said any research we have done is greatly appreciated. I am curious have you got off your A… and assisted the AOA with ideas about their ineffective emailing or do you just pay your fees and then get pissed off when it does not go your way.

I think I have already used this phase - getting further evidence of others in the same situation is what I am aiming to achieve, this is quite useful when something is challenged such as education, your housing, taxes All of these are benefits of your contract but sometimes a review can make the difference and to many an education review maybe needed.

[flyingkiwi]

I agree with you regarding the bus,

We have 2 kids we could do with the ESF break or the levies included in the fees.

[AAIGUY]

School is free in many other countries.
There may be pay options, but the general
Population gets a free education up to University.
99% of those entering Harvard, Queens or other
Ivy league schools went to free public education.


Simply another example of the stupidity that
Hong Kong is. Eveyone just buys in..

[711]

You probably can't have 15% tax AND free schools..

[AAIGUY]

There is a 30 BILLION dollar budgetary surplus in Hong Kong..

I think they can kick in a few bucks to schools.

[turnandburn]

//////////

[daisy120]

Bottom line here in HKG for private schooling, whether it be Hong Lok Yuen, ESF, the various International schools et al...is this; places are incredibly limited even if you have popped your child on the from birth waiting list. It is also corrupt in two ways. Firstly, fat debentures will produce results and secondly, nepotism from Head Teachers is rife. Selective and vigorous entrance assessments from P1 up is the norm and proximity to those who are key in that system will generally produce dividend. Even if the result is positive, there is little assurance that the child will "fit". In other systems, flexible schooling will normally allow movement between schools to allow a better "fit". Sadly, in HKG, because of the acute shortage of places below year 5, little school transition occurs. I am told there are now over 1700 families, not kids..families..home educating in HKG right now. That is nothing short of disgraceful and may be the reason Coke decided to move their Asia HQ to SIN...who else will follow?

[daisy120]

Local schools, eg Saikung Primary, where they teach in both Cantonese and English medium are a good bet at present. They are looking to develop a multinational stream to complement the NETs. However, they will also interview and assess but with less constraint than the private sector. For P1 to P4, this can be a good start for a child to integrate into the HKG system with Cantonese fluency resulting fairly fast. That said, the ESF tend to put kids who go into the public system back to the end of the Q, (they will refute this though if formally consulted).
Various private schools are currently offering scholarships but these are highly competitive and do not cover years 1 to 4. HKG is very debenture biased and will react well to the larger debenture offering. Don't neglect the established local high end schools, St Pauls Boys Catholic School and St Margerets as an example.

[Ho Hum]

It IS very, very competitive and not clear-cut, wait-list based. You may not get a place at all. fullstop.

Nor does there seem to be particular, (or any) loyalty to same nationalities, although I understand the French side of FIS is compelled to offer French nationals a place, not so in the International stream. Nor at other branded schools, Canadian, Australian etc.. they don't care, it's a business, show them the really big money or lump it.

This is a major, major bugbear for newcomers to HK. Do not underestimate the stress it can cause. Been there, we did not enjoy it at all ! :ouch:

The suggested number of people home-schooling is quite realistic, quantifiable and a disgrace for such a financially successful country. But it IS reality.

Shame about the basings scenario heh....

several fixes are needed. :ugh: good luck kiwi etal

[flyingkiwi]

Thats a great question does anyone know?

[ASH1111]

Nope....sadly...

[flyingkiwi]

Home schooling is actually illegal in HK from what i understand, although plenty still do it.

[ravenjewel]

CATHAY BOARDING SCHOOL ALLOWANCE

Does anyone know the current policy in relation to overseas boarding (I'm HK resident ) and the education allowance for Cathay? I've been told that in order to obtain the boarding allowance the child must board 7 days per week - with no leave for the child outside school grounds REALLY?

[iceman50]

If you really are employed by Cathay go to the benefits centre or look online, don't ask on here!:ugh:

[joblow]

Whilst I sympathize with those parents trying to find places for their children at schools in HK. As iron skillet stated, having children is a personal choice, placing the burden of educating those children on the taxpayers is a misnomer fostered by western governments . which is why HK schools are so expensive, the HK government feels no special need to make provision for the expat kids above local schools and this is a sensitive issue right now.So I do not expect a resolution to this problem any time soon
If you want to have children that is your right as it should be, but it is also then your responsibility to pay for their education medical etc. and should not be the burden on the general taxpayer who may not have or want children.
It is time to move away from the theory that it takes a village to raise a child and move to personal responsibility based system
If enough pilots leave CX because they cannot get their kids in school Cathay will soon enough address the problem but until that happens I'm afraid that it looks like you are all on your own .
Please don't bother flaming me I'm not looking for a fight and I do sympathize with your plight it's very frustrating but I also see iron skillets point of view

[whackthemole]

If you want to have children that is your right as it should be, but it is also then your responsibility to pay for their education medical etc. and should not be the burden on the general taxpayer who may not have or want children

Just like having a car is a choice. You should not burden the general taxpayer who may not have or want a car with the cost of roads, bridges and tunnels. I have a boat.

[Ghost_Rider737]

This problem is a world wide one that's just getting worse as the current world population reaches 7 Billion.

certain Ethnic groups need to slow down reproduction .

Iron Skillet , whats your solution ?

[FERetd]

joblow, quote:- "If you want to have children that is your right as it should be, but it is also then your responsibility to pay for their education medical etc. and should not be the burden on the general taxpayer who may not have or want children."

What if the parents of said children are taxpayers?

Doesn't that mean they are paying their way and not part of any burden on their fellow taxpayers?

As you say, "if you want to have children that is your right", just as it is if you do not want children.

I believe that a tax payer has a reasonable right to expect something for his money.

The question really is, what responsibility should the employer have over one's children. None, but nice if you can get something!

[Steve the Pirate]

Smoking is a choice. Thousands of people every year receive medical treatment for smoking-related diseases. I'm a tax payer and I don't smoke; should have to pay for the treatment that smokers receive?

Going back to ravenjewel's question, I agree with iceman.

STP

[joblow]

To answer the query from FERetd, parents with children get a break on taxes because they have kids, so no they aren't paying their way enrirely, there is going to be a subsidy to some extent from the general tax pool .If you want a fairer system then those who choose to have children should pay a higher tax :{rate than those with no children, after all they use more of the worlds resources

In Canada and the USA a large proportion of the property taxes are used for education, how does that benefit a single person or childless couple who have no need of the schooling system ?
If the employer pays for education great I'm all for it but then a pilot with 3 or 4 children will earn substantially more than a single person by the time education allowance is added to the package for doing the same job

Again I'm not trying to start an argument or hijack the thread. Education is not a choice it's an essential so good luck to all of you struggling to find school places for your children I hope it works out

[FERetd]

Joblow, your argument about taxes is rather simplistic. Steve the Pirate has a valid argument. And what about about State pensions? Some people live for years after retirement whilst others die shortly thereafter. Yet they might both have contributed equally to the scheme. Should the estate be awarded a refund if the full pension benefit is not enjoyed?

Life is not always fair, but generally you win some and you lose some.

You appear to think that those who have children benefit unfairly. Children, believe it or not, are necessary to promulgate our species and are also our future tax payers.

Personally, I'm rather happy that my parents chose to have children, I've had rather a good life - so far!

[Steve the Pirate]

@joblow

If the employer pays for education great I'm all for it but then a pilot with 3 or 4 children will earn substantially more than a single person by the time education allowance is added to the package for doing the same job

That's not actually true. The cost of employment will be higher for the employer but the employee with children will still earn the same as the childless employee.

STP

[Busbert]

Don't forget you need to pay tax on the education allowance and make up the shortfall between what Cathay pay and the actual fees (which can be substantial if you don't get an ESF school place). It all adds up... Times that by 3-4 kids and you get the picture.

Couple that with the tax due on the housing allowance (treated as a cash benefit by IRD if you use it to pay a mortgage) - with govt rates, rent and management fees on top, and you find that a rather large chunk of your income goes before you see it.

Just sayin'...

[FERetd]

Curtain Rod, quote:- "Nobody is worried about the world running out of volunteers producing enough new kids..."

Whilst I have no argument with your post, I am not sure about your last comment. We should all be worried.

The number of children being produced who will eventually contribute towards the finances of their country is decreasing, whilst the number of children who will forever be a demand on their country's resources is increasing alarmingly.

The demand then stretches beyond those country's borders in the way of International Aid, donated from other taxpayers' contributions.

But what to do? I quite resent my hard earned income being given away to those that seem determined to procreate themselves into eventual oblivion.

[Old China Driver]

HK has almost a trillion US dollars on account. Surely they can use some of this to provide sufficient schooling (at a reasonable price) to the different expat groups. HK has relied on expats in many areas since it's creation, and owes it to those currently here to help in such an important area of development.