Why I turned down Cathay Pacific (SO Transition)

[eternity]

Hello.


I had been offered an interview for the Second Officer Transition course with Cathay Pacific and I had made the decision to turn them down.
I would like to convey to you all the reasons why I have turned them down in the hope that this will help other pilots going for the job with their decision.
Please be aware that I turned this down several months ago...but the information is still valid.

About two years ago, a similar thread was written by someone who had also turned down Cathay. This was very well written, however, my writing skills are
certainly not as good, so please bear with me.
A few things have changed at Cathay since that post was written, so I wanted to try and give some of you an update as to why this offer is still not particularly enticing.


That thread (as far as Im aware) was for one of the longer courses, however this one is purely about the 12 week SO Transition course.
I still maintain that the long course (and the lower pay) is still an excellent way to go for someone with no flying experience. The 4 years as an SO can be pretty
much considered your GA (general aviation) time, and is well suited to someone in their early 20's. However, for someone who is older and has experience, it is
a different story.

But I will do my best to explain it to you. Please also note that I have conducted an ENORMOUS amount of research into this...(I dont suffer from shiny jet syndrome).


Because I operate in Australia, there are alot of references and comparisions to Australia and Australian based airlines. Although this may not be of much use
to people from other countries, there are a huge amount of Aussies and Kiwis that look at Cathay, so this is more based for them.



I am an 31 year old guy single guy living in Australia. I have approx 3000TT and am currently an FO on a Q400 Dash8 based in Sydney and flying throughout News South Wales and Victoria.
I am looking at a command within the next 2 months, so life is good right now.
Although there are many low-time guys out their who are not in the same "boat" as I am, I do believe that there are many experienced guys out there that are having a good look at Cathay as a career path. I hope that what I have discovered helps provide some insight for them.

Throughout my career Cathay Pacific has always been my goal and my target. "One day Im going to be living the Cathay dream!!!" This is what I always used to say to my flying buddies.

A while ago, I was invited to an interview with Cathay Pacific. I was very excited, but also cautious as I had always followed the Fragrant Harbour thread and was aware of the new Terms and Conditions at Cathay. However, there was so much junk posted on pprune about the money that I rang up the recruitment department to get the figures straight from them.

I know that these figures have been mentioned time and time again, however for the purpose of this post I will list them again.



Second Officer Total Package
This includes a 875,000HKD "loan" that is forgiven after 6 years and is available to So Transition pilots.
I have taken this amount, divided it by 6 years and then by 12 months to include it in my monthly salary. Please note I have not included any portion of the forgiveable loan in the FO salary as I reakon that I would have spent it all by then.
This is pretty much everything you get, except for the local currency given to you for food on a layover

Year 1: 60,839 HKD a month (50,497 after tax)
Year 2: 66,783
Year 3: 72,139
Junior FO: 83,287
First Officer: 93,496

Please note that this is pre-tax dollars. You will need to take out approximately 17% of the abovementioned figures to get the real figure. It has been mentioned that tax on your first year is a "once off double amount", however, as I was looking at Cathay as a career move I chose not to take that into account.

A little while ago, the famous Housing Allowance was discontinued for new hires, and was replaced by a "Hong Kong Pilot Allowance" of 10,000HKD a month for SO and Junior FO and 14,000HKD a month for FO. Please note that this has already been put into the above figures.

The old Housing Allowance was (and I may not be correct to the dollar) about 30,000(ish)HKD per month for your first year and went up to approx 70,000(ish)HKD per month after 4 years. This basically allowed guys to live "rent free" whilst at Cathay. Some would then buy a place and this Housing Allowance would simply pay off their mortgage for them. After 20 odd years at Cathay, these guys had enjoyed a salary similar to major airlines in the developed world, whilst living rent free and having Cathay pay off their mortgage for them.

The current Pilot Allowance of 10,000 a month, then 14,000 a month...then up to 36,000 a month after about 20 years with Cathay simply will not allow you to do this.
Unlike the old Housing Allowance, this new 'Pilot Allowance' is not factored into inflation - which means as inflation occurs annually, the value of the 'Pilot
Allowance' becomes less and less.

Ive accepted that the days of all the old A scalers and B scalers is over....so I think to myself..."No problem, I just want to be comfortable and live a nice lifestyle".
So I looked at rent and buying a place as well.

With a roomie, I found some nice places in DB (Discovery Bay). These were about 800-900 square feet, 2 bed and 2 bathroom for about 28,000HKD a month. These places were not really flash, but they wernt dodgy, they were about normal, and in a half decent area. So paying 14,000HKD a month each, that is 30% of my salary going just to rent.
And that is with a roomie paying the other half!
But thats no problem....because you are not an SO for life, so I looked long term as an FO (it takes about 5 years to get to FO after joining). By then I will prob have a wife and maybe one or two kids. So I'll need a bigger place. Moving away from DB and going to some other cheaper areas I found some nice 1200 square feet, 3 bedroom 2 bathroom places for about 35,000HKD a month. On my FO wage of 93,496 a month that is still 35% of my salary!!

So I looked at buying a place....

The first 2 bedroom place for 28,000HKD a month cost 7,500,000HKD to buy (about 925,000AUD). The mortgage repayments with only 2.75% interest was only 25,000HKD a month! Not too bad, me thinks......but then I looked at the deposit required. 30%....that is 2,250,000HKD (about 280,000AUD)!!!!
Boys, I dont have that sorta money. I spent the first half of my 20's funding my flying training and have only come out of GA a coupla years back.
No probs...I'll save for it!!

Saving consistently for 7 years (for the deposit for the first smaller 2 bedroom apartment) will cost me about 26,000HKD a month. I cant do it....looking at my SO salary, the numbers just wont add up. I'll have to wait 5 years until Im an FO to really start saving, but by then, I might need that bigger apartment I was mentioning earlier....

After some "mini saving" as an SO and some "bigger saving" as an FO, I will be ready to put down the deposit on the bigger place for my family probably about the time that I am getting close to command. It will have taken me about 10-11 years to save for the deposit for my first place. I'll be 42 years old and entering into a 20year mortgage.
Boys....Im an Aussie and owning our own place is a big "psychological must" for us. I love flying, and Id love to fly for Cathay......but I didn't get into this game
to be able to finally afford a small apartment at 42 years old and still be paying it off by the time I reach 60.

For a bloke with experience, going into an airline as an SO can be a hard thing. Not only do you have to sit and watch the other guys do the fun stuff, but you are also effectively tying yourself to that airline until you get a good 1-2 years of experience as an FO as most airlines throughtout the world do not accept P3 time. (That's SO time). If I started flying for Cathay today it means that no other major airline would really look at my "Cathay jet time" until I had been there for about 6-7 years.
I dont have any jet time, and without jet time, your options througout the world with other carriers can be very very limited. If I joined Cathay, my other options
(or escape route) would be still be unobtainable for 6-7 years from today.
For a bloke with about 3000TT and coming up for a Q400 command, my prospects outside of Cathay are pretty good. I have Virgin and Jetstar at home, or other LCC A320 carriers throughout Asia that pay ok, but will give me a command within 2-3 years. The pay then is very good....and if you combine that with living in a developing country, your lifestlye goes up, your overheads go way down, and you save a fortune!!
Other options then include the big boys like Emirates, Etihad, Vietnam Airlines etc etc....



Other expenditures:
Other things in Hong Kong can in fact be quite cheap. Like Singapore, HKG is a city where you have the ability to live rather frugaly or spend a fortune. I have lived in plenty of different countries throughout Europe, Scandinavia and Asia. I dont need to spend a fortune on western food. I eat the local tucker in the outside resturants. This is great because:
1. It is cheap
2. I am cheap
3. It is healthy, and
4. I hate cooking (because I am lazy).

Other costs such as mobile phone, electricity, water and household items such as dishwashing liquid, soap etc are all about the same as you would find in Oz, NZ, UK and Singas.

Public transport is dirt cheap, so you definately save money on not having a car.

You would most likely not be able to live like a local completely. So you will probably have, or indulge in, a couple of home tastes. These of course will be very expensive, but essential for the expat.


So to conclude.
If you choose to go down the SO transition path you will be working for an excellent airline, that will provide you with a clear and defined career path.
Unfortunately, however, whilst the money is still the same, the absence of the Housing Allowance means that you will be getting paid the same amount of money that you would at Virgin Australia or Jetstar to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, with some of the highest housing costs in the world. If it was direct entry FO, you would probably do it as, after 2-3 years you can bugger off to Emirates, Vietnam etc, or back home. But as an SO, you are going to be there for a long long time until you can get out, and not take a hit in your career.

Living in Hong Kong on the current package that Cathay Pacific offers will provide you with a comfortable lifestyle. You probably wont need to eat noodles every night, but you wont be able to live the Hong Kong expat version of the CUB (cashed up bogan)!!
You will survive, you will exist.

Im not afraid to live outside Australia and I dont really miss my Mummy and get homesick. But if Im going to live in another country, I dont want to just survive.
I dont want to just exist. I want to live a slightly nicer lifestyle than I can back home. But this current package wont allow me to do that.....so then I ask myself...whats the point in giving my career to Cathay??? If they are paying the same amount as Virgin and Jetstar, then it kinda defeats the purpose of going to Cathay in the first place!!!

Cathay Pacific is not a career building airline.....it is a career airline. If you go there, you need to go there for a long time to get any worth out of it, and the
job would be great, but the money......that is what stopped me.

Im sure that many reading this would disagree with what I have said, however, I am sure that many would agree. I do not want to discourage people joining Cathay as I still believe that it is a great airline and I do hope, that one day, I may get to work for them. But at the end of the day, after your flying to San Francisco for the 115th time, staying in the hotel there for the 115th time, then flying back home to HKG for the 823rd time, its not the job that matters....its the money and the lifestyle....and on the current offering, Cathay Pacific would not be able to provide me with the moderate lifestyle that I would want to live in an asian country.


I think Cathay would be an awesome place to work.....but the removal of the Housing Allowance.....it killed it for me. It killed my Cathay dream.

Eternity.

[bunghole]

Good D there Eternity....and good luck with your career in Oz......

I was offered a cadetship....bit of an insult really as a 35 year old with 5000 hours, but I won't lose any sleep over Cathay or any other airline. I turned it down simply for the reasons you stated. I feel sorry for young guys getting into this now. It is simply not worth it. The future is LCC'S along with low terms and conditions.

I need TP for my...........

[ASH1111]

I have flown with a few of these iCadets, and while they are nice enough guys, they either have a unique circumstance (i.e. wife got trans with a bank to Hong Kong, etc), or they are kids with their heads in the clouds.

Listen up youngin's! These are not all sour grapes here! We are trying to give you all a heads up on what's waiting.

You are a darned fool to come on 10,000 HKD housing.

Period.

[profo]

It's not just the housing. This is spreading through the rest of the company. People keep saying that Cathay would be a great place to work, but they can't afford to come because the housing allowance is no longer what it used to be. However, you need to realise that this this cheap-skating, penny-pinching, management-bonus-serving attitude is company-wide. Worse hotels, nasty rostering, stagnant salaries, etc etc. Open your eyes.

[swh]

eternity,

Your maths was a bit off, also some of your other info.

First year SO, once online flying 84 credit hours would get the following

Monthly - $35,170
HKPA - $10,000
Hourly Flying Pay (84 hours) - $3,500
Total - $48,670

If you divide up that $875,000, and add it to the monthly calculated above, you earn $729,875 a year gross. In HKG the first $108,000 is tax free, the total tax liability on $729,875 is around $93,718, you would have a Nett income of around $636,157, or $53,013.14 monthly.

This would be equivalent to AUD$6,855 a month after tax, or around $115,000 P.A. before tax. This is the entry level position.

You do not need 30% deposit, it depends on what you buy. The Hong Kong Mortgage Corporation helps a lot of people out making up the difference between the 70% mark and the 95% mark, all you need to come up with is 5% deposit, and $875,000 would hit that mark. If you were to buy, you get an additional tax benefit of around $100,000.

GovHK: Tax Computation of Salaries Tax and Personal Assessment (http://www.gov.hk/en/residents/taxes/etax/services/tax_computation.htm)

[404 Titan]

swh

You have made the mistake of using the HKIRD’s tax calculator which doesn’t calculate provisional tax. I’m sure you are very well aware the effect this will have on someone’s first year tax bill.:=
Hong Kong Mortgage Corporation helps a lot of people out making up the difference between the 70% mark and the 95% mark, all you need to come up with is 5% deposit
That is incorrect. A 10% deposit is still required and you have failed to mention the changes to the scheme introduced by the HKMC on the 11th June 2011 after they lowered the cap on property values that can be covered under the scheme.

The Hong Kong Mortgage Corporation Ltd (http://www.hkmc.com.hk/eng/pcrm/ourbusiness/mip.html)

[swh]

You have made the mistake of using the HKIRD’s tax calculator which doesn’t calculate provisional tax. I’m sure you are very well aware the effect this will have on someone’s first year tax bill.

The first tax bill is normally issued the second year, around one year in arrears, and one in advance. I actually got my first tax bill in my third calendar year in HKG, with a year and a bit in arrears, and one in advance. I was asked to make that in two payments, first in the following Jan for about 70% of the total amount, the remainder about 3 months later.

My first tax bill was about 60k, I got paid less than todays TT cadets. Back then we used to get 6 months in the Headland when we started.

A 10% deposit

Okay, I got that wrong, it was 95% when I did it. With the 885k loan, they could easily still do a 6 mil property through HKMC, which still buys a fair bit in Disco Bay.

[VFE]

Of those I know who were potential iCADs or actual iCADs, the majority had links with HK already, be it parents with business links there, or a family crashpad, wife who can transfer to a HK based bank etc... Johnny Foriegner with no experience of HK and no links there don't figure.

VFE.

[3rd Floor]

You young guys (i-Cadets) thinking that you will be able to buy property in Hong Kong on the new C scale package are dreaming!! It will take you forever to save the required deposit!! :{

10K per month for housing is rubbish!! :ugh:

Enjoy the struggle!!

[blade]

Expat cabin crew get 8k HKD a month

ouch!!!

[NEIN]

owning a property in hong kong is really really hard:uhoh:

[AQIS Boigu]

Eternity,

Congrats to your decision - you made the right one... When I was accepted at CX I was about your age, had similar hours and flew a similar aircraft BUT there was no way I would have joined under the current conditions on offer. I already had a few mates in CX and I couldn't have lived the with fact knowing they make double what I would have made with the iCadet transition gig for doing the same job.

You certainly got one thing right - if you leave home to become an expat it has to be worth it; you never leave to go overseas to make less money!!!

AB

[whackthemole]

I already had a few mates in CX and I couldn't have lived the with fact knowing they make double what I would have made with the iCadet transition gig for doing the same job.


Exactly. Most of us have friends or ex-colleges who'd we'd love to see join us in CX, but who turned away this disrespectful offer.

In fact, it used to be a fairly common occurrence that recruiting was done through word of mouth and recommendations. Whatever legends or aura that exists around Cathay Pacific developed because we were able to hire from the top shelf around the world. Nobody in their right mind would recommend this deal to a friend who has any kind of experience or skill-set.

The irony of it all is that the ones with the spine, brain and judgement to walk away from this deal are the exact pilots we should be hiring. They're the ones who have what it takes to make decisions at 38,000' when facing a nightmare scenario.

But beggars can't be choosers.

[PCLCREW]

Sounds great... I can be cabin crew in a pilots uniform for 4 years for minimum wage... were do I sign?

[Peak Tram Driver]

well the goodnews is now CX is in Pakistan trying to recruit cadets there, the business class pax will love it when these guys pray to mecca infront of them at 5 am:D

[ASH1111]

Oh boy. If Cathay goes down this road, I am not hanging around to see how this ends.

Oh, and don't worry icadets, they are looking for pilots in Pakistan, because the package you have signed on for is top notch.:ugh:

[711]

Imagine them flying with a female captain, a jewish first officer from the states and an Indian ISM:}

[Flytiger]

You have an interesting approach to it all.

Take what I say with a grain of salt. I am not a pilot, but older than you and have a good career in a well respected profession (on the ground).

First, you cannot put a price on clean air. HK doesn't have that.

Second, the SQ A380 decision is already suffering blowback. All new ships have a risk of having problems but this is going to be a huge pr problem for SQ (and others). After AF447, QF 32 and the cracks, the public is starting to see Airbus like they see ... well you know ...

Third, you may not get married and have children, but sound like the kind of guy who wants to do that, which is great. If that's the case isn't Aust. one of the best places to do that? Is QF hiring guys like you?

Fourth, there will be a marked flattening or even decrease in traffic in the next 20 years from Western Countries - so factor that in. We are in for a long recession as long as governments do their best to keep zombies alive and prop up unproductive assets like housing (when they should be propping up new productive industry)

Fifth, if you do decide to go with Cathay you can always live in a boat in the harbor, surely? :D

Sixth, you are right in thinking for yourself, because no employer, no matter what their reputation will ever do that for you. They owe duties to their stockholders above all else.

Best of luck to you.

[newFE]

Hi, I was invited to the initial interview-advanced entry SO. I apreciate if you could answer some doubts that I have please:


-housing price in HK
-during 32 week training, if I fail should I pay somenthing?
-what would I get for the 885k?
-do they give you a TR?
-is it possible to upgrade to FO earlier because of the new a/c arriving?
-that hours as SO counts as normal ones?

Thanks a lot.

[AQIS Boigu]

newFE,

I don't want to accuse you of being a lazy Spaniard but someone else might do so sooner or later. All the info has been discussed to death on this forum but I am happy to give you some short and concise answers.

Further to cater for your laziness I have converted everything into € and m2 where applicable so you don't need to make the effort to think or possibly do a currency conversion.

-housing price in HK
### mega expensive, HK is the most expensive city in the world - to buy you are looking at €250, €500 and €1000 per square meter for a flat in a ****, average and nice area respectively - for renting you are looking at €10, €15 and €50 per square meter.

-during 32 week training, if I fail should I pay somenthing?
### yes, everything - see previous threads about the new contract.

-what would I get for the 885k?
### 88500 Euros minus tax.

-do they give you a TR?
### No, you get a P2X rating which is valid above 20000ft; it is totally useless outside Hong Kong and not recognized anywhere else in the world.

-is it possible to upgrade to FO earlier because of the new a/c arriving?
### No, strict seniority and upgrades are running at 4 years at the moment and might come down by a few months - new aircraft are mainly replacement since HKG is running out of slots.

-that hours as SO counts as normal ones?
### No, totally useless hours - see your question about the TR.

Hope this helps...

AB

[newFE]

Thanks AB.
Do you know how is the 32 week training please?, why soo long?

[eagledream]

I'm looking swell for a structure of the 32week course in adelaide but can't seem to find any info about it.. i have heard rumors that you do 4 exams every 2-3 weeks till you complete then you start the flying conversion? please someone correct me if its all not true

[Muddy Boots]

Eternity,

I totally get where your coming from and I like your considered approach but a couple of items to think about.

You do make it sound like you'll be the only breadwinner in the family. You're in your 30s and whoever you marry probably will be too by the time you finish kicking the tyres. I doubt in this modern age, the woman of your dreams will be completely devoid of having had a career? She might not come with a dowry but I'm sure she's been working as hard as you and between the joint incomes of you're family you might be able to afford a larger down payment or mortgage.

The other point. I have gone from rags to riches and back to rags several times over my working life. My first mortgage was a monster, I lost sleep at night worrying how I'd ever pay it back. Within a few years, my salary had crept up along with the cost of living and left it behind, it quickly became less daunting.

Bsaically my point is, don't over think things, they will all come good one way or another...

[IFRKING]

LOL! what a wrong mixture of pilots. it would probably cause chaos.

[JB007]

I too was offered SO Position, 4500TT, been flying for 8/9 years, 36 years old! Not fussed about LHS, just want to be back in a long-term career airline after been made redundant from Thomson in 2010.

I echo the Thread Starter, even as a single guy, no wife and kids but with a very good life in the UK, I couldn't get the Maths to work, would simply be shafting myself!

Big big shame...

[PapaGolfIndia]

At the risk of receiving much grief, at least there is a housing allowance. The vast majority of people in Hong Kong that own property earn a lot less than a CX SO and have no housing allowance. I was earning HKD24,000/month and owned a place in Discovery Bay (with a 25 year mortgage), and could live comfortably - though admittedly I had no family to support. Then I embarked on a CPL in S.Africa, selling my apartment to fund it, came back home to HK only to break my back and put me out of flying. Now earning less than I was and no property. Oh bugger.:ugh:

[14182]

-housing price in HK
### mega expensive, HK is the most expensive city in the world - to buy you are looking at €250, €500 and €1000 per square meter for a flat in a ****, average and nice area respectively - for renting you are looking at €10, €15 and €50 per square meter.

The money you're talking about should be per square feet, so in any case, it's just an even smaller...well...bunch of squares may I add?

Just to put it into perspective (with slight exaggeration), the price of a house of a size of around 4000 square feet at "prestigious" location in HKG can probably buy you Buckingham Palace, or the White House if you're from the states. (Or the country if you're from Ethiopia):ugh:

[MidgetBoy]

I've always wondered. What's wrong with living in Tung Chung? That's the first place I thought of when I went for my interview. Cheapest place I could think of. $5-6m gets you 3 BR, 1200 sq ft. It's a little shabby since the floor isn't even and the caulking job is a joke.. but it's not terrible.

[CirrusPro]

Is it possible to be a new SO and commute to the western US?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Practically, no.

You'll have the days off, but no money. Your "take home pay" isnt enough to take you home.

CX staff travel s really expensive. Economy (the seats are dreadful) is around US$200 return, business is US$450 return. The standby system is notoriously inaccurate in its "forecasts" and you're bottom of the list.

Every pilot, flight attendant and staff member who joined before you will be on the standby list ahead of you. Dependants of staff members will be ahead of you. Wives, husbands, kids, the lot.

Flights are full. There is the "jumpseat" option, but that's only if the captain gives it to you ahead of all the other requests he has for the jumpseat. If its a training flight, no are available for request.

If you live anywhere other than SFO or LAX, factor in travel costs, Cathay has almost no reciprocity with other carriers.

You have to travel on a firm ticket. If you miss the the flight (stuck, bumped etc.) that's strike 1 of 2.

Go ahead, commute. Six months, tops, before it ges too much.

[CirrusPro]

So even with the roughly 75K they give you as forgivable loan plus being able to keep the monthly allowance since you will technically still be HK based the finances would still be hard? That seems like a lot of money to be able to spend on tickets to get home.

[airgent]

CirrusPro, I was wondering the same. My understanding is that the loan isn't really what it seems like. I think the money isn't available until the four or five years of service have been completed. It's more like a bond. I'd like to get an input from recent hires if there are any in here

[Cpt. Underpants]

Do you know what the "forgivable loan" means to your net salary, per month, after tax, over the six years?




HKD2,700 per month.

That's not even ONE "subload" business class return ticket to ANY North American or European destination. Think you can suck it and see with a "commute" home? Think again. You can't afford the tickets and you can't afford to "no show" for work.

Guys, I don't want to p1ss on your parade, but you REALLY don't know how expensive this place is and how poor this offer really is.

Do what you want to do (of course) but don't expect a sympathetic ear when this all comes home to roost.

[airgent]

@Cpt_underpants...It's nice of you to warn us but why are you doing it? just being a nice Samaritan? are you at CX? and what's your current benefits? if these benefits are not enough for us why are you still there?

[blade]

well he's prob on 200k/pm HKD like the rest of us

[airgent]

What's your seniority/status? What were your benefits and salary when you got hired?

[blade]

to whom do you refer?

[Cpt. Underpants]

airgent

I don't remember signing up to be your biatch, and don't feel obligated to respond to your demands, but here goes:

I predate B scale, with appropriate seniority and remuneration. I have nothing to lose or gain by this I cadet deal. Nada. Zip. Zero.

I do sit for hours with S/O's who have joined in the last year. I don't "rub" my package in anyone's face. The vast majority of S/O's on this deal are a dreadfully unhappy bunch, cloistering themselves on lay overs, saving every penny, ticking off the years to upgrade...

Don't get duped by CX recruiting on this thing. It's an experiment. If no one signs up, the deal goes up. You're all cutting your own throats.

[airgent]

@Cpt.underpants...oh shut up you moron, if you didn't sign up to answer my questions why did you even reply to a post that didn't concern you to begin with? Have any mental retardation or it's probably the polluted air in HK keeping you high? So you and others who feel so rightfully "obligated" to tell us how bad CX is, why don't you shove it and stop scaring off people? Don't you realize we're all adults to make our own decisions? Those who chose to accept the deal have their own reasons, why do you even care to begin with?
FYI, the above questions are rhetorical!

[Cpt. Underpants]

Fair enough, advice over.

Come to HKG. Soon. In fact, see you next Tuesday.

[airgent]

hoooo so scared [shrugged pff]

[airgent]

...and this is the type of crew that Cathay relies on....Frightening! I wonder what level of education they have, probably high school.

[jriv]

Cpt. Underpants has been providing useful, respectful content to this board for years. Airgent, you are no gent. You come off as a disrespectful brat.

I was hired as a DESO in 2008. I ended up in a pool, and was finally offered a class in 2010 under the new terms. The recruiter who called and explained the new offer sounded embarrassed.

But you know better, don't you?

Oh, and I passed on the offer.

[airgent]

@jriv. I'm not disputing your statement, it's just that respect will get respect back. A senior guy should know better how to respond, gotta lose the attitude. Foul language is unwarranted and I'd use it on someone who's careless to use it on me first.

[Kenny]

Airgent,

I hate to tell you this but I'll try in the most diplomatic way I can.....You, are at the bottom of the aviation food chain and if you expect to be respected by guys who've been flying aircraft since before you were probably born, you are in for a rude awakening.

Respect in this industry, has to be earnt by those who are starting out. You can increase your chances of being respected quicker, by listening to guys like Undie and having the maturity to realise that they have been around avaition and CX long enough to know, that guys accepting the I-Cadet deal, are being taken advantage of by CX. They're being brutally honest in the vain hope you might actually realise that if you believe CX, you may very well, be up the proverbial creek, financially.

Don't behave like a spoilt gen Y brat.

Oh, and just so you know, there are CX STC's that will end up doing your checks, that have posted in this thread. The very guys that your job will depend on. You might want to stop insulting people......just sayin'.

[ChinaBeached]

Airkid.... You're right in some ways. This is the standard of applicant CX seek:
I wonder what level of education they have, probably high school because experience, credentials let alone 1 single hour of flight training is not needed. What you endorse, support and subscribe to by hoping to join CX under such circumstances speaks volumes of your own standards, not those of others.

If it weren't for those turning down the offer (i.e. those with thousands of hours of experience as Capt and FO in GA, regional, international ops in piston, turbine and jet aircraft) then you and cohorts would be chasing something else fast and easy without the need for credentials or experience. And, if you do have such experience, then more the shame you. In fact it took this iCadetship for so many of these "passionate" wannabe aviators to even try to be a pilot. Such "passion" didn't exist before the standards for applicants was so low.

People in the know tell you and others the truths. But you deem all that experience and knowledge as below your own naive, selfish and ignorant wants.

If selected you're not the best of the best but the cheapest option. Nothing more, nothing less.

[airgent]

@Dan Buster....I know you're trying to pick on me but I will be wiser to ignore your comments. Have a fantastic CX day!

[airgent]

@Kenny. You know what's so funny about online discussion? many people assume many things. Just because I ask for advice doesn't require me to lower my standards, or let someone out there treat me in a disrespectful way. We probably come from different background, but as you said respect is earned. That's fair however respect comes both ways, it's not a one way street. Another thing is, how do you know if I'm a cadet, how do you know that I have zero time in aviation? think about it for a second, I may have way more time on the yoke then you do. You don't know that! I don't and won't reveal my aviation background in here (maybe not quite yet), I'm here because I'm looking at the prospects of probably joining CX but I'm not sure, so I come here to you guys see if you could help. What good is there if those who volunteer to provide answers act themselves like kids? just saying...Regardless, there are good people in here willing to provide info in a polite way, I appreciate that. I understand no one is required to answer any question in here but should anyone volunteer please do it in a professional way after all most of you are pilots and expected to act as professionals. Isn't it what seniors strive to be like? like role models?
Thanks for your "diplomacy" but you've got to look at things outside the box sometimes not just in your own perspective. Good day!

[airgent]

@ChinaBeached....I always considered CX as a high class world airline but if CX is only looking for such applicants (no disrespect to anyone), it may not be for me. It tells a lot about the workplace in general.

Here is a question for you? Why is CX looking for SO? is it a requirement from the HK civil authority or just another way to slowly weed out pilots on scale A and B? I mean hire cheap labor to replace those who are there already?

[Kenny]

Airgent,

Not that I think that you are going to get this in any way shape or form but I’ll humour you, for now….

Why have I and many others made various assumptions about you and your situation? Simple really; you accept that respect is earned but then state that it’s a two way street. Actually, in a company like CX, it’s not. If you join as an I-Cadet, you and only you will have everything to prove. You will be judged from day one on your attitude, how you interact with your peers and those senior to you, what you say and how you say it. Given that you don’t realize that, it shows that either there’s a lack of maturity or a lack of experience within aviation.

CX is not a “touchy-feely” airline, they’re not going to hold your hand and give you a kleenex, when you have a bad day and screw up in the sim or on the line. They will expect you to do your job to their standards and nothing less. Why? Because that’s the way they’ve been doing it for the last 60 odd years and it’s worked for them. The culture at CX and pretty much all the other “Colonial” airlines is probably the main thing most pilots from the US, struggle with at first.

Continuing on with why I made the assumptions I have; you ask how I can be sure you don’t have more experience or flight time than I do? Well, if you have 13 years as a commercial pilot, 9000 hours and 2000 in the left seat of a jet, then I guess you do but the only question I have is….why the hell would you be looking at the CX I-Cadet program? Given that I don’t think anyone in my position would consider the current entry options to CX, that would leave 2 main options; Either you’re an RJ/TP FO or you’re probably at Riddle. And that, God help us, would explain everything!

I’ll tell you what I find amusing about online discussions….That younger posters, who don’t know about a time when Facebook, Twitter or even the internet existed, can’t seem to resist the urge or temptation to put everything on the internet for the whole world to see. It’s not that difficult to work out who you are if you ever make it to an interview, especially if you’ve told the very people that might interview you, that they’re a moron. I’m not kidding, by the way. Also, you do understand that the CX recruitment team look at these pages? What do you think they’d make of your posts?

You’re right though, there is a wealth of information here from guys who know CX inside out but there are those who seem to be unable to accept being told the truth and act like petulant little children, when told something that doesn’t agree with what they conned themselves into thinking, just to justify accepting such poor terms and conditions.

I’ll leave you with this…Dan B wasn’t attacking you and CB hit the nail squarely on the head. You are not the best of the best but very much the cheapest option. Why would anyone want to join a company that so cynically values them so poorly?

[airgent]

@Kenny...allow me to say that you may be confusing professional respect and internet etiquette, the two don't mingle. You have your opinion on this, I respect it and I have mine. Like I said before, I will treat you the same way you treat me.Of course I know in the airline industry, there is a chain of command, the Capt get the utmost respect, usually "unchallenged" except in rare situations.
Furthermore, CX in the past, was accepting applications for both FO and SO, so I applied for FO position but was offered interview for SO position recently. Don't just assume I wanna be a SO or I'm a RJ FO/ Riddle or Gen Y, so much for profiling. I want you not to err (on the wrong side of this) based on your online experience, once in a while you come across someone different. You can believe whatever you'd like, I know what I am.
See if I was that stupid, as you're insinuating, I could have just taken the deal right away but I'm looking for info to make a sound decision; this is what brought me here to begin with but I started regretting my decision to seek info on this forum due to certain people's attitudes. 'Tell you what, even if CX offered A Scale to new hires, I'd think twice before joining if that's the type of people I'd work with. I have experience to know there are better companies out there!

[VFE]

I cannot understand why some people are so keen to go and work for a company that has so much ill feeling and negativity surrounding it.

Having been through the selection process I can tell you that a more oppresive and intimidating company I could not wish to work for.

Regards,

VFE.

[airgent]

@VFE. That's the feeling I'm getting. Good to know I'm not alone :)

[Di_Vosh]

I really feel for CX Capts/FO's if this is the mental maturity of the SO's/iCadets you'll be flying with.

Cpt. Underpants wrote I don't remember signing up to be your biatch, and don't feel obligated to respond to your demands

but then went on to answer the question.

airgent who later carries on about internet etiquette

immediately replies with oh shut up you moron.

And then wonders why several posters are giving him attitude.

this is what brought me here to begin with but I started regretting my decision to seek info on this forum due to certain people's attitudes..

Mate, most people (on Prune and face-to-face) are mirrors. Maybe people on this forum are giving you 'attitude' because they're reflecting yours back onto yourself.

DIVOSH!

[blade]

If you guys can't hack it then don't come..

simple

[airgent]

@Di_Vosh. Get a life please, you're wasting too much time online trying to be the internet counselor. VFE nailed it.

[Di_Vosh]

airgent

You crack me up mate! :}

Five minute reply last time and around three minutes for this one. In between posts, I've walked both my dogs and enjoyed the very narrow window of good weather here in Melbourne today! :ok: I've got plenty of time for Prune ;)

But I'm not the one asking for information about CX and then abusing people who reply.

Ask yourself this: After your display on this thread, why would anyone bother trying to help you?

[airgent]

@Di_Vosh...Haven't you realized it yet that I don't care if you try to persuade me of your good will to provide advice? Low IQ perhaps? 'Thought CX has methods in place to weed out such people hummm. Your time is up already, who's next?

[Di_Vosh]

G'day again airgent

@Di_Vosh...Haven't you realized it yet that I don't care if you try to persuade me of your good will to provide advice?

It was pretty obvious that you didn't care for my advice. However, my last post wasn't for your benefit. ;)

'Thought CX has methods in place to weed out such people hummm.

Way off the mark there, sunshine! I've never applied to CX and never will. The reasons for that should be obvious. Pity you can't take your own advice about assuming things about other people.

Keep it coming. :ok:

[j3pipercub]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY, PLEASE LET THIS BE A WINDUP:mad::mad::mad:

j3

[airgent]

@InTheWeeds
I hope you're not a pilot otherwise God bless your PAX. You know I was referring to "respect" in the context of professional respect right? What's that has to do with CRM? Do you even know what's CRM is? You think CRM means no respect for the Capt? ha! this is really interesting, please tell me you don't work for CX, it starts to scare me the things I hear from those supposedly pro pilots...hum!
or maybe you had too much "weeds" this morning? [that would explain it]:)

[airgent]

@Paultheparaglider
FYI, I took notice but didn't appreciate the attitude, that's it.

[blade]

paultheparaglider

out of 14 pollution stations in hk today 28/5 Tung Chung today was 25API on the index, the second lowest in hk..

The annual amount of pollution in tung Chung is in the lowest 25% of anywhere in HK...

Yes there are days about 10 a year when its really bad there,however if you check your daily readings,and annual totals its always well below most other Hk towns..

Just keeping the facts straight.

Moreover its ozone pollutant in general and not Nitrogen Dioxide from vehicles and industry as in most other HK locations

[VFE]

If you guys can't hack it then don't come..


Blade's response is just the proof you need. Everyday at work will be like doing ten rounds in the ring with Tyson. Not a bad thing if you like that kind of atmosphere at work but in commercial aviation it's widely accepted as being a hopelessly outdated attitude and not very CRM to say the least.

VFE.

[blade]

VFE

you are right ,its much better to come then whinge about your conditions...

how about if you don't like the conditions don't come...

seems simple

[blade]

Yeah Paul thats spot on,on a yearly basis low in general with very high occasional spikes...

on the plus side I hear lots of expat cabin crew are in TC!!

[SloppyJoe]

I think the HKG government site is misleading though, the levels in the report are arbitrary numbers picked from no guidelines as to what is and what is not healthy. If you look at this site it compares the pollution to the world health organization levels and shows a very different story as to what is low medium and high. Funny how HKG decided to make up their own levels and ignore a worldwide standard.

Hedley Environmental Index (http://hedleyindex.sph.hku.hk/home.php)

[extralite]

Interesting how a thread develops. Its a forum topic to help Cathay applicants, sarted by someone who was successful at the process who gave a well reasoned explanation of why he turned it down, then supporting comments by serving Cathay pilots. Any thanks from a cathay wannabe? Nope...attack :) I would have loved to been a fly on the wall at that interview with airgent if it happened. So a belated thanks to all that took the time to give constructive advice.

[K.O.]

Hey Kenny,

I'm looking at joining CX and reading these posts as well as talking to a Captain at CX has really opened my eyes to what its going to be like working there. I wanted to know how you, the rest of you PPRuNers and the aviation industry as a whole, view pilots who graduate from Embry-Riddle. Most of you have oodles more yoke time than I do, so your input would be great. I recently graduated from there and like to know what kind of reception I'm walking into, be it negative (as I kind of expect) or positive.

Cheers,

KO

[TruthSeeker6]

K.O.

Unfortunately, Embry-Riddle graduates generally do not have a good rep amongst professional pilots and most ER grads end up flying for regionals where it becomes their career. ER's Aeronautical Science degree is nothing but a very expensive degree (up to $200K or more with flight) that gives you a pathway to a poor quality of life since you make pittance while flight instructing and as FO at the regionals. ER grads are also known to be rather arrogant as they have the mentality they graduated from 'Harvard of th skies" , in reality, there are some much better flight schools like Purdue etc. The ER grads I know, generally fly for a couple of years, can't get anywhere and change jobs to do something that usually is not aviation related. It is unfortunate when you look at ER's sales brochures, they always talk about how there is a "looming" pilot shortage, not really telling the truth about how difficult the job market could be.

Good luck to you.

[K.O.]

Hey TruthSeeker6,

I'm sorry to hear that. I can confirm your statement about grads going to regionals, however, I'm unsure of how many many still have those jobs, have moved up in the world or just flat out quit. I've always (and understandably so) thought of my degree to be the crowbar that will separate me from my competition, and I hope I'm not being cocky by saying so, but hope its a fact.

Do you think someone else with a degree from Purdue would do better? Or is it just luck that determines what job you'll land? I don't and didn't plan to be a flight instructor after i graduated. What alternative is there to moving from being a CFI to the regionals? I doubt I am better off. I'm not sure what your flight background is or if you're currently employed, but I'm more and more inclined to believe that the poor sod working for Express Jet at 22k a year, has a job and flies something bigger than a piston twin.

I agree with the fact that ER grads are known to be arrogant, but that's not all of us, its a stereotype. Purdue and UND are good schools too. I wonder if there's a way to let the aviation world that we're not all stuck up and make sure that ER grads are a bit more humble about their degrees/training. I won't really know how good of a pilot I am, or how good my training is until i throw myself into the real world and go head to head with hundreds of other pilots in trying to secure a job.

The looming pilot shortage needs to stop looming and start striding towards us, wha'dya say? ER makes dreamers out of us, but I think its good in a way. We graduate being fairly positive, ready to get out there, get a good job and make the most of our training. Thats not how i felt when i graduated, perhaps i know more. I digress. Thank you for your input. Anyone else have a similar or contradictory viewpoint than TruthSeeker6? Let me know.

Thanks,

Happy Landings,

KO

[TruthSeeker6]

K.O.
The problem with pilots progressing to the major airlines is there are so many regional pilots out there that are qualified to move up and going to the majors is a very competitive process since you will be vying against them for the jobs. It seems that the ones more successful in getting into legacy carriers are the military pilot. Since your only 24, have you thought about going through one of the branches (Air Force preferably since you will likely fly a large transport jet there). In the good ole days, working at the legacy carriers means you had a set life, now it’s totally unpredictable due to rising costs, poor revenue, intense competition from low cost carriers hence why many airlines go into bankruptcy like American is going through right now. Keep in mind, American was once a very strong carrier even post 9-11, now that name may never exist since US Air may take them over. Look at Pam Am, Eastern etc.

I really don’t think person that went to Purdue or UND etc would be better off. I think someone who went to UND and Purdue probably had a more normal college life than ER (UND maybe less debt). It seems the biggest complaint about ER is that it is so aviation oriented, it didn’t seem like a normal university (just look at the male-female ratio). I think the problem with wanting to be a pilot is that it is hard to start off no matter if you went to ER, UND, went to Flight Safety etc, everyone doing this themselves have to somehow build hours to move up. You can graduate with an engineering degree from Harvard but not get hire at the regional if you don’t have the hours (where it helps is when HR has to decide if they choose you or the other candidates applying for the job). Once you get the hours, you still are not set as there are always furloughs, bankruptcies and intense competition finding pilot jobs (just try to find some 737 jobs right now in the US and you can see how few position there are at any given moment).

You are right, not everyone at ER is arrogant, you don’t seem so from your postings. One thing about ER is you definitely got a better flight training that your peers who went to other flight schools especially in that area. So keep positive.

[GTC58]

K.O.

CX is presently transitioning from a career to a training airline, a stepping stone in an airline pilots career. However, it is for sure a better choice then working for an US regional airline. As a recent aviation college grad your demopraphics are in demand for the advanced entry cadet course. If you are young and prepared to spend 6-7 years in Hong Kong you will have over a 1000 hours right seat wide body jet time which will open the doors to find employment at home or with some better airline choices.
The question you have to ask yourself is - can you adjust to the lifestyle in Hong Kong? The cadet package doesn't provide housing benefits so you are initially getting HKD 10000 a month as an extra allowance. Housing is getting more expensive and Tung Chung for example is estimated to grow to a population of 290000 due to the bridge construction which will make this previously reasonable priced housing area unaffordable to you. But if you are willing to share accommodation with room mates or commute to a more affordable country like Thailand you can live for sure a better life style than with an US regional. Also, don't count on ever getting a base, as the new Hong Kong package eliminates any base cost savings. In summery, if you are looking for your first airline job and you are willing to give up life style and leaving your home country, CX is a good choice in my opinion. However CX is not the career airline anymore for all the new hires and accumulating a comfortable retirement package and retirement home in your home country is only possible with significant lifestyle sacrifices in Hong Kong under the new package.

[lonestar2012]

Is there any issue if Pilots from pakistan or any other mulsim country is praying facing towards Mecca? Has this been an issue for the Business or First Class pax travelling in Emirates or Etihad airlines?? Did they start sh*ting in their seats when they saw a pilot is praying??? Why this has to come as a surprise if they are coming to Paklistan to recruit pilots?

It might come as a surprise that there are many pilot in CX or SG who are from Pakistan, and so far no Business class Pax has done sh*t*ing in his pants.

I wonder why people have to tell all of the world that they are so ignorent of the facts and so narrow minded?

[K.O.]

Salah And Muslim Pilots/passengers — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2529245/)

check this out, it may help. It will obviously depend on the airline. Dan Buster is right...you may want to think twice about praying while on the flight deck with two expat pilots at the controls of a CX 744. In India and in most of the middle east you wouldn't have a problem.

[K.O.]

@TruthSeeker6,

I’m afraid I dislike anything to do with the military. I was on the road to being a fighter pilot for the Indian Airforce flying Su32’s etc, but I decided to go a different path.

I totally feel you on the whole “normal college experience”. Yes I am VERY aware of the male:female ratio at ER. I suffered that for 6 years. Lol. I must admit I recently got over my riddle vision. Haha. ER is aviation 24x7. You hear it in the hallways, in dorm, during conversations at lunch…its everywhere all the time.

I guess the real telling will be when the HR guys and gals read my resume. It seems like its in their hands entirely. I DO think I got excellent flight training, however, I’m yet again unsure of how I could compare to you during a one-on-one fly-off.

Do you know what an iCadet is? I am unfamiliar with some of the acronyms and jargon used here.

Cheers


@GTC58

I’m rather confused about my future. I feel like im on a game show where once I open Door Number X, I’ll be stuck with what I get. Seems like a big gamble. The question I ask myself is, will I miss out on something much much better during those 6-7 years here in India? Will I be able to make Capt on a 777 here within that time frame rather than making 1000 SIC on a widebody flying for CX? Will I SAVE more living and working in India or HK? These are questions I cannot answer now; there are to many unknown unknowns. I’m sure I can adjust to pretty much any life style haha. I’m just trying not to set myself up for another 6 years of cup noodles and counting pennies to buy milk. Had enough of that in the States. I was seriously considering living in a fairly cheap one-person sailboat at the harbor. No real rent to pay, and if I have to pay at the docks I could just sail to a cheaper one. Food is cheap and so is transport. I would be ok about leaving my home country to live and work somewhere else, however, with the current state of the pilot package I don’t think I’ll have housing security for too long. I don’t want to have to AFFORD the pilot package im given.

Cheers

[crwjerk]

Surely a wind-up.

[Cpt. Underpants]

No wind up, imho. This is what Cathay are trolling for. Pun intended.

[SloppyJoe]

A one person sailboat in the harbor? Don't think you have really thought this through or looked into it at all.

All moorings are full. 3+ year wait to get a government one but can't go on the waiting list till you have a boat. Some moorings left in Aberdeen but they are HK$6000 a month plus laying your own power and water.

Or did you mean just floating around in HKG harbour. If you did I am surprised you got into any sort of university, even one like ER where if you have the cash your in.

[Captain Dart]

A potential airline pilot planning to live in a one-person sailboat in Hong Kong harbour??

In the immortal and oft repeated words of Sergeant Wilson to Captain Mainwaring...

'Do you think that's wise, Sir?'

[K.O.]

Well to be honest, I didn't have the money to go to ER. :( I did however get several scholarships which saw me through a portion of my time there. The rest was paid for by friends and friends of friends. So neither I nor my family had the money to put me through ER.

No i haven't thought it through. Just sounded like a great idea at the time. I wanted to do something different than live in an apartment and have to pay rent and utilities etc etc boring same stuff. Time for something new, a new experience. My first idea was to (now hear me out before you say "what" like Lil Jon) live in a tye dye microbus. :} The boat idea was merely an extension of the same train of thought. I thought of that in the states when i was at ER. I could BARELY afford rent there and didn't know how to drive so that plan was out. BUT! If i were to do it all over again, I would learn how to drive and then live in a tye dye microbus...its not THAT off the wall kinda of an idea. Imagine how much you could save! The hippie in me loved this idea. If CX won't give SO Cadets a housing package, who says I have to live in a house?! Again, it just sounded like a good idea and i'm not sure its wise.

Come on. One of you out there has to have thought about doing something like this!

[SloppyJoe]

Lots of guys at CX live on boats but it is not really a cheaper option. You get more space for the money but have a boat to upkeep. You would not be allowed to live in a camper in HKG, water? Sewage? Elec? Again don't think you have thought it through or researched it.

Your Indian and got several scholarships to go to ER for a flying course. That is a good effort, I have a friend who is just starting to look for the way forward into a career in aviation. Could you give me the details of these scholarships so I can pass the info onto him and he can try to get some financial support.

Thanks.

[K.O.]

Hmmm I will see what I can do about the scholarships. It worked differently for me because I applied through the university. It was one general app that went out to all the donors of the school, who then chose who they would award it to. I know i have a consolidated word doc with all the scholarships I looked at somewhere. How will i get it to you? I don't see an attach option here. Perhaps you could give me your email address.

Oh AND...Multimedia | The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat | Living Aboard.net (http://www.livingaboard.net/multimedia). One of the better sites I found. Very informative. Discovery Bay has a really nice marina, its the closest one I found to the airport. And if it works out to be more expensive that a flat (which i haven't looked into at all) then its back to the drawing board :)

[flapsupdown]

KO,

In case this isn't a wind up and you really were thinking about living on a boat....

In HK, only the wealthiest people can afford to live on boats. It isn't something one does in order to "save money"

Please don't say anything like that in your interview....

[K.O.]

Not a wind up. I'm just trying to come up with a never done before novel idea. Sigh. So is there no really really cheap way of living in HK then eh? Unless you have a very rich friend who'll pay for everything. Hmm. Btw, I haven't heard nix back from the CX HR folks who I wrote to last week. Any of you out there asked about the nitty gritty details about the SO package...benefits and pay? Lemme know.

Have no fear. I will not say anything like this or other outlandish thing during my interview.

[lonestar2012]

It's about seeing the Business class pax to see a pilot praying in the plane so what??? And why it comes to muslim and people start talking about their prayers???


It's not that muslim pilots leave the cockpit and start praying as soon as prayers time is on! First of all prayers dont take hours just 5 minutes, and even if the pilot leaves for the 5 minutes it wont crash the plane, when the other pilot is sitting in the cockpit!! and First officers and Captain leave the cockpit to go to the Toilet, dont they?? Or they should sit in the cockpit and **** inside it? is thats what you are referring to??? No pilot is thats insane to put life of so many pax just to leave the cockpit unless it is safe to do so.

And no muslims dont need to find anyother profession as they many muslim airlines are flying safely around the world with best safety records.

Perhaps you people can talk something more substantial.

[bangout]

Like English?

[K.O.]

Dude...chill out. We're trying to help. You asked for an opinion and you got it. No need to get upset.

To be very honest, it would look weird if a pilot from any another faith left the cockpit to pray. Passengers should not have to see that. As a pilot, especially in these days of global paranoia, you gotta be damn careful how you act in front of your passengers. You have to be extremely professional. I'm not telling you not to pray, I'm telling you that it would be completely inappropriate to do in public; so stay in the cockpit if you can, or go to the crew quarters and pray there. You have to also take the culture of the country into account. Doing this in the USA would be difficult, no explanation needed there. If you were to do this while flying for Etihad or Qatar, not as big a deal, merely because its seen as normal and thus is accepted.

I'm sure that if praying was a major safety issue, which i personally don't think it is, then there would be strict rules about it (I haven't found any). You're right, the same rules apply when one pilot leaves the cockpit to go to the bathroom.

Basically, whatever you leave the cockpit to do, don't do it in front of your passengers, they may not like it, and its not professional.

Happy Landings :ok:

[crwjerk]

The thing is, you can pray later. Lightning will not strike you down if you miss a prayer or two. In fact, nothing will happen, ever. Go to the toilet and pray. As you are only allowed to leave the flight deck for physiological reasons, who'll know???

[Gligg]

I'm not sure that crew praying in the first class cabin would go down too well with most pax, particularly outside of Muslim majority countries. The pax are paying us substantial money to perform a specific task. How about a Buddhist waiter meditating next to the table he is serving at the Savoy? at the end of the day, we are being paid to perform the role and project the image required by the employer, flight and cabin crew alike. It is not religious intolerance, it is business.

[lonestar2012]

There are many pilots who pray while taking rest and No they dont have to pray in the toilet! no one can force anyone to pray in the toilet. Sure lightning wont strike, if a prayer is missed. I dont know what type of culture is there in CX. I am sure any pilot who wants to pray would himself make sure to pray out of Pax sight.

The only problem I have is why if CX is going to Pakistan, and suddenly someone mentioned how a pax would react seeing a pilot praying in the business class. It only shows lack of tolerance. I am not going further into this discussion, You guys carry on with your routine discussions.

[yep_ok_whatever]

Hahaha, this has to all be a wind up? Two trolls at once, if not, makes for a good giggle.

[diddly squat]

Nice Post & Story Eternity. :ok:

[Gligg]

A two troll tango

[MidgetBoy]

@Paultheparaglider (http://www.pprune.org/members/236219-paultheparaglider)
Thanks for the response.
When I was there though the tv always said Tung Chung had the lowest pollution levels. It may have been the season I was there during, however, it's irrelevant now.
I've changed career paths long ago. I'm just here watching dreams of expats die.
Working for CX is great if you can live with your parents or if you already own property there... that's about it.
It seems like any new hires for CX that aren't complaining about the low pay are people who are doing it for show. People who have rich parents who wanted their kids to do something. Relatively smart people who want to bang more chicks. People who enjoy traveling but don't realize flying for airlines isn't the same... essentially people who go to university to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree; they're people who get into CX to impress their parents enough to have a decent share in the inheritance.

[VeroFlyer]

WOW! You have issues!

[GlueBall]

Will it be another idle day of deferred dreams? :zzz:

[jetjockey696]

Ok...a bit off the topic... i was walking through HKIA.. bored as usually..surping my coffee and being a nusiance... I noticed on two separation occasion, young chinese(locals) pilots supporting mohawk haircuts.. well it was a slightly over grown mohawk...i thought it was the last of the mohicans, chinese version... hahaha.. I thought there is a dress code... ok aleast a clean shirt, shower and shave..but the hair didnt look professional... in any case... i was going to give the kid an extra few HK$ so he can go back to the salon and finish his hair cut. but i thought he was going to scalp me.

ok back to prevering and you lot can go back to argueing about CX... :ok:

[AtoBsafely]

"young chinese(locals) pilots supporting mohawk haircuts.."

I'm afraid you are mistaken..... These days cadet pilots are so poor that they get their hair cut in installments! :eek:

[jetjockey696]

lucky for these cadets.. that a crotch wax is not needed.. wax/shaving half is not CX standard.. or is it... hmmmm.. there goes your landing strip. more like a bush landing... hahaha

[PNM]

So, one is able to dig up statistics which support that Tung Chung isn't the most polluted part of Hong Kong...

...consider that paultheparaglider might be saying that of all the places expats might reasonably consider living, it is most definitely one of the most polluted parts of Hong Kong. The reason we know this - is that we have to drive/ train/ bus past the place every time we go to work - and it's definitely up there (ITO pollution).

Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the place from what I can tell, and quite a few of my friends have opted to live there. But it regularly suffers very bad pollution. That's a fact.

I haven't checked what residential places regularly suffer worse pollutiuon than Tung Chung, But I'm guessing is places like Mei Foo, Mong Kok etc. If you want to compare Tung Chung to places like that, then you might want to check them out first.

[SloppyJoe]

Hedley Environmental Index (http://hedleyindex.sph.hku.hk/home.php)

Regardless of what you think you see driving to work these measurements show daily that Tung Chung is NOT one of the more polluted places to live. Check it out occasionally and you will see that the city locations are the worst, understandably, followed by the rest, of which Tung Chung is one of the best places in HKG with regards to the pollution.

These are not statistics they are real time readings of pollutants in the atmosphere at the locations mentioned.

[hongkongfooey]

No boundaries ? More like no brain cells, a terrific reason to not fly CX in 20 years when he might have a command.

[HK life]

Hi

I agree with what you are saying but i must also say i could not find a better offer than this atleast for now as i am a low time pilot.

My question is do you think that there is still an airline out there that will give you the cathay dream? In other words do you think it is cathay that is going down hill in terms of being a pilot or the whole airline industry?

Regards

[NowThatsFunny]

HK Life,

(hopefully you're not like airgent and others who will take this advice as a personal attack)

Instead of looking for the quick now-now-now path into a big shiny jet that will see you head down an unhappy and low paying career (if you can call it a career) with almost no way of saving for your retirement, why not go out there and get a job suitable for a low hour pilot. Then you can become a higher hour pilot and apply for suitable jobs, then become an even higher hour (and experienced) pilot and apply for a reasonably good package at a reasonably good airline (that doesn't treat their employees like CX does).

Trust me, you'll have many enjoyable and worthwhile experiences along the way, especially if you get into single pilot IFR in strange places doing even stranger tasks.

[Wallaroo]

Can't say I have ever come across a bigger bunch of whiners about Cathay and living in HK!

I am an Aussie and live in HK. Yes it has its challenges and is expensive and has bad schools and all the rest of it. But I am still here because on balance I would rather live here than anywhere else. Someone here said said if you can't get more money then don't go to HK, only worth it if the numbers add up. I for one took a 60 per cent pay cut 9 years ago to have the chance of living here. No housing allowance, just a salary. But with much lower tax I could justify it and also live in a more exciting place than in Australia. Amazed how many Aussies on the forum who whine about their lot in life, how bad Cathay is, how your free housing allowance is shrinking ( I get zero) and how hard it is to jump on your free company funded flights for your holidays ( I pay full rack rates for mine). If you don't like it ? Go home and stop whining!! Pay your 47 per cent tax there, live in a remote location and live the high life you crave! Just a bunch of self important losers. Enjoy your life and stop the crap!!!

[Krajchek]

Exactly. Most of us have friends or ex-colleges who'd we'd love to see join us in CX, but who turned away this disrespectful offer.

In fact, it used to be a fairly common occurrence that recruiting was done through word of mouth and recommendations. Whatever legends or aura that exists around Cathay Pacific developed because we were able to hire from the top shelf around the world. Nobody in their right mind would recommend this deal to a friend who has any kind of experience or skill-set.

The irony of it all is that the ones with the spine, brain and judgement to walk away from this deal are the exact pilots we should be hiring. They're the ones who have what it takes to make decisions at 38,000' when facing a nightmare scenario.

But beggars can't be choosers.

Hi there! I hope you also have the perspective of an EU pilot. Other pilots here already expressed They. Make 2,000/month wiht wizzair! Or 3,000 after they payed their type Rating loans back. I hope you won't be judjung or have preconceptions about our decision makins on 38,000ft accepting a job for 6,500 month with housing allowance :) not everyone lives in Australia.
I love asia and lived like an asian already. And if someone wants lo live specifically in HK, may it be, why not CX.

HOWEVER! I also agree with you, with 500hrs on type I would choose other carriers in the region are paying more than CX. Totally aree.

[ChinaBeached]

Wallaroo - do you work for CX?