Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)

[mrx111]

Hi All,

I can't find again the thread about P2F discussion, so I'll write here. I'm experienced pilot flying for one european airline right now, but I've been partly involved in P2F program a time ago. I didin't go thru this P2F scheme, but I've quite valuable informations about all P2F things, about what they will offer you and how many violations are made against the training contract. If there is someone who wants to support this battle against P2F program (provided by EJ), give me know. I don't want to do all as a single person involved. There are several things, like immigration and work permit regulations beeing violated, safety, exceeding duty time limit for JAA license holders and many other things. According the contract you will receive from EJ, you have to follow all instructions from the airline, otherwise your program will be terminated and you loose all your money. This has already happend and makes me the feeling, that the EJ and partmer airline can make easily good profit just by pushing the trainee pilot to the limits, which he doesn't want to exceed. Once you refuse the request, you go home. This case I've well supported by many proofs, but I don't want to write all to the public forum at this time.

[superced]

Contact BALPA .....just joking they are useless...

[Superpilot]

Surely this is something for the UK CAA to look at? And they will afford you the anonymity. Good on you for coming forward. BALPA and most pilots in positions of power at EZY have sold themselves out a long time ago. This single disease will be responsible for the demise of this career yet on the campaigns page of BALPA not a single sign of them doing anything about "P2F". Not one.

[I'm Off!]

If you have a case and supporting evidence, go to the CAA, they will take you seriously and it will be anonymous. If you don't, then don't waste your or our time.

[fiftypercentn1]

I have a couple of thoughts for you, and I clarify that I was never part of any P2F scheme.

If people could pay to start acting in hollywood would they do it? YES
If they could pay to be in the national soccer team? YES
If they could pay to start off as models? YES
etc etc

why all of the above doesn't happen? (at least not in the same way as we intend it). Because most of the businesses are regulated and need quality in the people who are part of them.

Until there is a LAW that forbids asking money any further than for a CPL nothing will change. We have all been desperate for a job/uninformed/not part of the business.

Again, this will never happen because MONEY is what count, and the companies wont allow it. Free market as we have been used to since 1950 doesn t work, it s been proven by this last crisis and by the status of all the poor countries in the world. The problem is at the roots.

[Firestorm]

Contact your union, and your CAA flight ops inspector.

[FatFlyer]

Hi, just a few points.
EZY did some pay to fly(for line training) last year through a third party but have stopped this because of concerns by trainers( some of those paying were not up to the ctc cadet standard) so there is no point fighting easy on this matter.
There may be stretching of the rostering agreement but I have not heard of actual FTL violations.
All bases are in EU so why would work permits be required unless you are from outside?
There are issues with French employment rules which have been discussed elsewhere.
We used to recruit mostly experienced f/o s with a few selected low hours cadets, now it is all cadets as they are cheaper, there is much that should be improved in their terms but it is not a pay to fly scheme.

[cortilla]

Sorry, but did the OP mean easyjet or eagle jet??

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Mrx11 - your information is completely wrong if you are referring to easyJet. Do you mean easyJet or Eagle Jet? EasyJet had a brief and very unsuccessful dabble in p2f a few years ago but have not operated a genuine p2f scheme for a long time. Your issues with any scheme easyJet operates are simply incorrect. If you are referring to Eagle Jet then please edit your post to remove any doubt as to which airline you are criticising, as everyone reading this thread thinks you are talking about easyJet.

I do not like the contractural aspects of the flexicrew system any more than anyone else, but it is NOT a p2f scheme. I would strongly suggest you research some long-running threads that cover this issue more fully. Then you can at least gain some understanding of the different entry-level schemes in order to make a valid contribution to what is an important debate.

[hollingworthp]

Norman - isn't the OAA Line Training package with EasyJet classed as P2F for you?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

A perfectly valid question hollingworthp. The answer is no as the OAA guys do get paid. They are embraced under the CTC Flexi-crew system and are on the same deal as the CTC cadets. That means they pay for the type-rating and are then paid as contractors thereafter. They are also likely to be offered jobs in the future with easyJet. It is not perfect but it is absolutely not a p2f scheme. The big unknown is how many of our current contract FOs are going to be offered permanent contracts this October and how the selection will be done. That will reveal the true colours of the new regime.

[Bruce Wayne]

The answer is no as the OAA guys do get paid. They are embraced under the CTC Flexi-crew system and are on the same deal as the CTC cadets. That means they pay for the type-rating and are then paid as contractors thereafter.


What is the TR price ?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Spot on Mr Wayne. OAA charge 34k for the privilege. Now that's way more than the price of a TR. So what the's remaining 14k or so for?

NSF is right in saying that the DO get paid by the hour for the duration of the contract. And some will see that contract turn into a permanent one. But the way I see it it's still 14k to fly...

P

[mrx111]

Sorry for misunderstanding of my original post, I mean Eagle jet, not Easy Jet. Eagle Jet is having this ****ty program in Africa and Indonesia.

[Firestorm]

What is included in the training package NSF? Is it ground school, sim, and skills test only or does it include line training, so at what point do the 'customers' cease to be 'customers' and become contractors?

mrx111. You could contact the IPA as they are lobbying against pay to fly schemes.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Firestorm - I am reluctant to get too involved here as this is hijacking a legitimate debate about the failings of Eagle Jet and their unprofessional operation.

In answer to your question, a candidate from OAA is sent to easyJet for screening. If successful they pay £34k for the privilege of a type-rating which is done through CAE at Burgess Hill. They get ground school, simulator, Skills Test and airborne base training. They are then the proud owners of a JAA Frozen ATPL with an A320 type-rating. At the end of that they enter the easyJet system for Line Training as any new pilot would with company induction, SEP, Line Training ground school etc. They get paid a flat-rate £1200 for the first few months and after that get paid only when they work by the block hour. Others will give the exact rates but off the top of my head I think it is £43/block hour and £250/day for a standby. There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour. It is clearly not ideal, but the experience of most people so far is that the work has flowed in. The key problem with it is there is no security and it may be helpful for others to publish the key parts of the contract so I do not mislead anyone. Nonetheless, this is clearly not a p2f scheme, despite some very unsavoury aspects to the deal.

As a little aside, an announcement was made this morning that easyJet Swiss have just taken on permanently (on a very good deal) 8 of the flexicrew cadets. Also, we have sent out permanent offers of employment to 37 flexicrew pilots starting 1st Nov. Finally we have announced our intention to offer an unspecified number of permanent contracts in France and Italy on 1st Jan 2011. Every one of those job offers will be from flexicrew pilots. As can be seen, permanent job offers have therefore appeared from this tempororay contract system and the nay-sayers have been proven completely wrong.

There are, however, some apsects to this deal that are, in my judgement, flawed and worth highlighting. Much of the flexicrew system has been designed to keep BALPA away from any contract negotiations and the contracts have not been offered in seniority order. We took on recently through Parc Aviation a number of ex-BMI pilots who were made redundant at BMI. By applying a random experience level which was completely unnecessary we ensured that most of these guys were offered permanent positions prior to our own cadets who joined easyJet before them. In addition, we have decided to hold 'selection' days in order to decide who gets the permanent jobs. This is completely unnecessary as these jobs will go to those who have been flying the line for years in some cases. If they are good enough to fly the line they are good enough to have jobs - it is has to be strict seniority order in order to ensure management 'favourites' are not given extra advancement, and people whose faces do not fit are left out. I have no problem with a clear and just system where under-performing or socially-challenged individuals are not offered permanent jobs. What I do want is an open system without shady deals being done on behalf of 'good blokes' at the expense of their less visible but very competent colleagues. If ever you wanted a reason why responsible union negotiation is so important, just watch what is happening here. As soon as restraints are removed from management then injustice always arises as personal preference takes over from fairness. We need to be all over this like a rash to ensure that the jobs are offered fairly and in the order in which pilots joined the company.

[clanger32]

NSF - Whilst not wanting to seem churlish, or pedantic, tha'ts not quite true though, is it.

I KNOW that the offer to the OAA guys/gals included 75 hours of line training that they are expected to fund. Now it is conceivable that EJ in their wisdom decided to remove that requirement from the deal, but then wouldn't you expect the cost to come right down, from the initially advertised £35k - which had included a large wadge of cash for the Line training?

Either way, I would agree the deal is not P2F - it's a kind of P2F hybrid, but it's certainly misleading to claim it's totally not P2F.

[underread east]

"There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour"

I am at a loss to work out why they would be required to pay back costs for a TR they have had the priveledge of paying 34K for? Is that not already more than enough? It may not be P2F, but it ain't that far off....

[G.S. Willy]

NSF, can explain, and use all the elequant wording he want`s. The 34k is for the typerating, and the line training, the peanuts paid during line training is just for show. After line training is complete, there might, or might not be a job offer. It dressed up, but still P2F.

[Saint]

In 1991 when I left university I applied to BA and the RAF as a pilot. I did the selections and was told that I had reached the required standard but no pilot positions were available due to cutbacks in recruitment in BA and personnel reductions in the RAF (I turned down the subsequent offer of Engineering Officer). Had I been taken on, there would have been a net payment to me from day 1 of my employment.

I became an civilian engineer and flew for a hobby in gliders and light aircraft. Eventually I saved enough money to pay for a CPL/IR and got that. Then the JAR regulations were brought in and I needed an MCC so I did that. Nobody would offer me a flying job due to lack of experience so I did an instructor rating. The total outlay for me was approximately £50k. I won't include loss of earnings because that will distort the issue.

After two years of training and four years of various employment as an instructor, aerial survey, and air taxi pilot I reached the break-even point in my flying career (not including subsistence expenses).

For illustration, compare that to the approximate costs of the current Easyjet ab initio pilot.

£80k for an integrated course.
£34k for the cadet scheme.

I suppose the break even point will come sooner for these cadets than me, but probably at greater risk because there is no guarantee of selection to be a cadet or indeed employment at the end.

There was a step change around 1990 when the airlines realised that they could save themselves the cost of training because of hobby pilots like me, and cadet pilots of schemes like Easyjet's.

That doesn't make it right, but we live in a capitalist society which deems this fair. Those who are lucky enough to be able to find the funding up front get the job (provided they can meet the minimum standard which on the evidence of the accident statistics appears to be high enough).

The current situation (and for the last 20 years) is that there are enough people with enough money and desire and minimum ability to pay for their own training to be a pilot. This is the political and commercial reality we live in. Unless the supply of pilots willing to pay for their training dries up this situation will continue. I expect that airlines will try to find some way of increasing the contribution of the prospective employee until that threshold is finally reached. We are not at that point yet.

You may feel this is not right or fair, but consider the alternatives. A meritocracy would provide the alternative route where everyone gets a chance based on ability. A socialist society would give everyone with the desire the chance to be a pilot based on reaching a minimum ability (followed by random selection). Neither of these political systems are in place in any democratic society today. Winston Churchill said: “Democracy is the worst type of government, except all those others that have been tried.” I suppose we are stuck with it for now.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Saint - you are right that we are stuck with this. A meritocracy is in general an illusion and certainly the systems of the RAF and BA would fall into that category. As we all know, life is a game of Snakes and Ladders - I have gone up ladders and down snakes on numerous occasions and fairness, alas, did not enter into it. I am only too aware that is the grace of God that has given me the opporunities I now have, and there are others who are every bit as able as I am (such as that is!) who are in a career nowhere land.

G.S. Willy - that is simply not correct. The only real change from previous CTC schemes is that an input is required for the Type Rating. Previous CTC cadets got £1000/month for 6 months but did get a permanent job eventually. I do not like it any more than anyone else, but is simply not true to say it is a p2f scheme along the lines of Eagle Jet's.

underread east - I have not made myself clear. The £20/block hour is not in addition to the £34k. If you have the £34k up front that is the end of the matter. If you do not have it, then a system exists whereby the company pays a chunk of type rating for you and you pay them back via the £20/block hour flown. I hope that is more clear - my apologies.

Clanger 32 - Hi again! I would have to check the fine detail of the OAA contract but it nonetheless is essentially a payment system as a contract pilot. I do not like it, but as we have discussed previously it is really the only way to a real job right now. As I have indicated earlier in the thread, there are now many people getting permanent jobs and that can only be a good thing. Therefore it is absolutely not a scheme of the type offered by Eagle Jet. I am aware as I write this that I am seeming to be an advocate of this scheme - I most definitely am not. I am, nonetheless, keen that all sides of the story are written and that people see that it is not all bad news. Best of luck.

[Bruce Wayne]

the thing is Norman, there *ARE* JAA approved A320 type rating courses available in the EU at under 20,000Euros and that is a one off cost without implementing the buying power of a large number of scheduled commitments.

so if the cost of the TR through EZ's scheme with OAA is 34K UK pounds, then there is a lot of money gone adrift there.

Now, i don't consider that EZ's fiscal management is that bad they are getting screwed badly on a TR cost; It's a free market and EZ are free to shop sim providers for the best price.

So the argument that the guys are getting paid is just disingenuous really. The *considerably* over the market rate that candidates are having to stump for the TR can equally be considered that they are 'loaning' EZ money and being repaid that loan; Or it could also be considered that the additional cost they are paying is the cost of *salary* [sic] that they will be getting paid.

All this for a short term contract, on the hope that they may get offered a regular position.


Also, we have sent out permanent offers of employment to 37 flexicrew pilots


out of what quantity of fleixcrew pilots on the books ?
37 pilots,
38 pilots
50 pilots
100 pilots
1,000 pilots.

it's all relative.

Look, I'm not being a dick here NSF, but really if barks like a dog, walks like a dog, licks its balls like a dog, then, likewise, if you are paying over double the available market rate for something and getting paid *some* of that balance back over a given term and have no permanent commitment or position and its for a given short term period, on the hope that you *may* be offered one, well then.. it's a dog.

[angelorange]

As long as the likes of NSF (experienced EJ Capt) and Saint (experienced GA pilot), believe we are stuck with P2F and other hybrid schemes it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy and the HR/Payscale/Mgt teams will continue to rub their hands with glee.

The fact is pilot recruitment is finally beginning to move in a postive manner. With Emirates looking for 200 this year and 500 next, Virgin opening interview doors again by end of 2010, Jet2 trawling for all levels of experience, Air Berlin expanding. Now is the time to say NO to these "deals".

BALPA needs to wake up (it is for its members to rise up and demand investigations), the CAA UK needs information on all such schemes and the concerns of Line and Training Pilots (They issue Operating Certificates). This is as serious as as FTLs. Financial worries, poor sleeping accomodation, low self esteem have no place in the cockpit (see: US Q400 Colgan crash). FOs need to be viewed as potential Captains not RHS warmers.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Bruce Wayne - I tend to agree with you. This is a dog, but it is not a wolf! I am not going to justify the unjustifyable - I have huge reservations about aspects of this deal. It is, nonetheless, not a p2f deal and it is likely, eventually, to lead to permanent employment with easyJet. As importantly, it is the only way of getting permanent employment with easyJet for the foreseeable future. You have to weigh it up, do the sums and see if you can deal with it. I do not agree with it, but that is the way it is at the moment.

angelorange - I am not saying we are stuck with this. I am, however, saying that at the moment this is the deal that exists. I do not like it, but that is frankly irrelevant. I see a 2-pronged approach - make this deal as good as we can while it is what is on the table, but fight behind the scenes to get it changed. The honest truth is that market forces are what will change this situation and that is what is happening right now. I will be delighted if 300 easyJet pilots resign next month - that will have an enormous impact on our terms and conditions. I have to say that I do not believe that will happen, and for all its faults, easyJet remains among the best of what is on offer. Time will tell, and I will be delighted to be proven wrong but from where I sit we have an almost infinite supply of willing volunteers to take the place of the more experienced FOs who will leave and are willing to work for significantly less than the people they are replacing. If we run short of promotable FOs (and I do not think we will), then we will recruit DECs as we always have done. Harsh assessment, but that is how I see it.

[Tampicotb9]

I might be slightly og topic. But OAA and Jonathan Curd with his a320typerating are offering an 320 typerating with 150 hours linetraning trough BMI for 35000 pounds. Many that have done this course are getting on the flexicrew contract with Easy and are being offered permanent contracts. My I ask what the difference is between this guys and the guys coming directly from OAA. They are paying the same amount of money!!!

[Spendid Cruiser]

I just notice on the IPA (Independent Pilots Association) Welcome to the IPA (http://www.ipapilot.com) website (members area unfortunately).


P2F - Pay to Fly schemes

Members have raised concerns with the IPA about pay to fly schemes where someone pays a training organisation a considerable sum of money for a training course for a licence that includes an amount of line flying with an operator.

We share those concerns and recently wrote to the CAA but the answer we received was predictable in as much that the CAA said the individuals involved were all intelligent and knew what they were getting into, flight safety is unlikely to be affected because there are requirements on an operator and an individual to ensure that a pilot does not operate when fatigued or ill, etc etc - you can imagine the rest.

We would like more information to be able to put a case to the CAA refuting their claims and also to make an approach to the Government. If you have experience of P2F please get in touch with Naomi Collier in the office, your annonimity will be protected and not passed beyond the Association.

[pitot_noob]

Not quite true with the numbers.
Training is at OAA Gatwick. Pay is 50 / hour plus standby days from the start of line training.
Increases after 500 hours.

[shagrat]

http://s0.2mdn.net/viewad/1694568/flyA320_728x90_121911.gif


Curds at it again. Rumour has it this time its with Atlas Jet in Turkey, though you could go direct and avoid the middle 'man'.

No need to register on the website for further information, of which there is little or no content anyway. Not even the price. For those wishing to peruse the site click here (http://www.simulator-experience.com/Combined-MCC-A320-Type-Rating.html)

Given his reputation, this is fast becoming the Del-Boy of aviation. :ugh:

[KAG]

Funny enough, I was just saying in an other thread the pay to work scam is a booming activity.
And nowadays more and more people cannot find any problem with it.
Soon we will have to wonder who has the most expensive ticket, the passenger or the F/O?

It's sad, really sad.

[BigNumber]

I think the reason that ever fewer people take issue with P2F is that there isn't one!

P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.

Every cloud....................................:E

[tarmac12]

Bignumber,

P2f is only becoming the norm now because newbee's think that it's the only way to get employment in a downturn. The number of P2f guys that get jobs at the end is probably the same as the number who get a job staight out of flying school.
These forums are littered with P2f people who have paid the money, did the 500 hours and are now still unemployed. This would lead me to believe that the only people who do it are either,

Desperate with cash,
Desperate with no cash but can get someone to guarantee another loan,
Unable to get a job as they don't have the right stuff or too bloody impatient to wait it out until the economy improves or just get sucked in by people who believe your crap that it's now the only way to get a job!

Go spread your message somewhere else.

[zondaracer]

Well said Tarmac.


I think the reason that ever fewer people take issue with P2F is that there isn't one!

P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.

I don't openly take issue with P2F anymore because it is not my money. If someone thinks it is the best for them, then go ahead. I personally think it is foolish to spend that kind of money on line training. I also think it is quite ridiculous to buy a type rating without a job guarantee. I get about one private message a week from individuals asking me were they can get a type rating for cheap since I mentioned once that I know of a place, however I have stopped responding to those types of PMs.

And P2F is definitely not the norm. I have yet to meet anyone personally who has done P2F and received a job (at least I haven't met anyone who admitted it). In fact, I never met anyone in person who was seriously interested in doing P2F. If it were not for the nobs on this site, I would not have even known about most of these p2f schemes.

In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.

[B737Dude]

I agree with zondaracer 'In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.'

[BigNumber]

What Twaddle!!

Just look at the headline banners here on PPRUNE; plenty of opportunities for a nice bit of P2F!

Rightly so; it looks like fun to me. If one can gain access to the ready's then anyone can jump straight into the cockpit of a A320 or 737.

Curd knows this and provides a valuable link to realise a dream for countless Wannabes. Why knock it? Everyones having fun. Why be a kill joy?

Better still; the public continue to enjoy subsidized airfares courtesy of our pool of punters. MOL stated some time ago that he would drive pilot salaries down to that of bus drivers; he's achieved even greater!! Bus drivers wouldn't pay for the chance to beg for a job! MOL charges for his interview process and I think it's great!

[mutt]

Rumour has it this time its with Atlas Jet in Turkey I thought that Turkey had a 500 minimum time requirement for expat F/O's?

[tarmac12]

Bignumber,

Do you have more than 250 hours? do you even have a licence?

You don't have alot of life experience I think.

[KAG]

A lot of money is involved with "pay to work".

More and more pilots are involved and it is not clear who exactly and how many persons get the money at the end. Some weird stories between the HR and flight department of the companies involved probabely... Pay to fly looks like corruption.

If no F/O: no flight possible, the pilot paying to work (yes paying to work, not for a type rating, not for touch and goes...) with paying passengers on board is shooting himself dead when nobody forced him.

In some countries it wouldn't even be legal according to the labour law.

The airlines involved might speak about "training" or something similar to justify themselves avoid troubles and stay hidden. Thing is that when you have paying passengers and you are asked by dispatch to do the flight to carry those passengers, there is no way to pay for it. It's so obvious that it's incredible that in 2011 we have to explain it.

However the airlines involved, the scam organizations advertizing and the pilots themselves are not going to complain to any international court... For now. But I can see the thing happening one day or another... Who knows...

The sad thing is that us, experienced pilots, and moderators/old pprune posters here gave up it seems.

No it's not the norm. But even if it was, it would be even more sad and it would still be wrong.

Let's not give up. Allowing those scams takes the job and salaries from some pilots to give a paying ticket to some others (or the same ones), it's not creating any job, it's not helping anything, more money is spent illegaly (stolen from the pilot community if there is one), and the whole profession is ashamed. Only some scam organizations and bad HRs are taking advantage of it. Wake up!

My fellow ppruners, please don't give up and explain your viewpoint for the ones still confused who beleives it creates jobs. Explain that Aviation is not about short cut, bad decisions, but about integrity and enjoying the travel more than the destination.

Cheers.


Link: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/444633-eagle-jet-pprune.html

[Superpilot]

P2F is common, very common. I've seen the lists of type rated pilots lining up to get their chance. If you have not been unfortunate enough to be in the system during the last 3-4 years I would politely ask you to keep your mouths closed because you have no idea. It's been nothing but pain and hardship trying to avoid the evil that is P2F. In fact, it's due of my thankless morals 3 years ago that I didn't get a jet job sooner (sorry if that hurts you, but for some of us it’s a jet job or no job because that’s the only thing that will bring food on the table, enabling me to pay a £800 mortgage and raise a young family). The guys who did Curd’s P2F at the time are today on perm contracts and heading for their commands taking home upwards of £80k pa.

If you have undergone modular training in the last 3-4 years, unless you got lucky with Ryanair (Which is obviously not "P2F" :rolleyes:), chances are you are still looking for your first flying job. Traditionally some other UK carriers have taken on a handful of modular trained goes every 6 months but with the recession that’s not been possible. In the UK for newbies, unless you’re an Oxford or CTC git you have no chance except with Ryanair. Just look at the cozy relationships between these flights schools and the biggest recruiting airlines in the UK, lowly modular guys like us have no chance. You’ll sometimes here from people “there are jobs”. Of course there are! but that is a silly thing to say given current unemployed pilot statistics.

On the subject of Atlas Jet. Desperate people continue to queue up which has caused them to become out of control with their pricing. A whole bunch of guys went out there having paid €30,000 but were told there was a new Turkish “Government” tax of around €10k and only broke this news to guys and gals after doing the sim check. Just ask the pilots with the other airline doing line training in Turkey if they are paying this (the answer is a big no).

[KAG]

So, what are you saying? A clear viewpoint (go for it or not?) on the phenomenon would be welcomed coming from an older poster like you, especially for the ones, the thousands ones now that have to take a decision.

[GONE FLYING]

What super pilot said is correct this is just the way things are at the moment. The p2f is always a high risk gamble with no guarantee of a job .But i do think that it should help you to find a job with 500 hours on a320 and 1000 hours total .You all know it's a expensive gamble best of luck :ok:

[KAG]

But i do think that it should help you to find a job with 500 hours on a320 and 1000 hours total .

Sure it should, as this is the exact purpose of the ones paying. This point is not denied, however everything I said above is.

I would really know about Super Pilot, is that a go or a no go? I really want to understand what think the older posters like him and what is his clear advice and influence on pprune.

[Superpilot]

Yes, definitely. No other reasonable way in thanks to current recruitment practices.

[aozc]

I've heard about that too mutt. But maybe this will take place in Saudi Arabia where I recall Atlas did/does alot of flying.

[Superpilot]

The 500 hour rule is something specific to Atlas. The other airlines don't have it. I have seen a couple of times in Turkey so-called "DGCA rules" which only apply to certain airlines.

[mutt]

I recall Atlas did/does alot of flying DID....... there are no Atlas Jet aircraft operating in Saudi right now.

[KAG]

Superpilot:Yes, definitely. No other reasonable way in thanks to current recruitment practices.
Alright, I was expecting something a bit more neutral and balanced from you.
So pay to work is reasonable now? Reading that makes me want to chat a bit more.

May I ask you if you have payed to work to start your career?

[portsharbourflyer]

I am not saying I necessarily approve of pay to fly, but it is quite easy to see why it has become so common.

I know of three turboprop operators in the UK that use to bond; all three now expect FOs to pay up front for the rating

Ok you say paying for a rating with a job offer is acceptable, but consider in this case each of these operators are exclusive in the type they operate and to stand a chance of getting an interview with these opeators will normally mean instructing (or some other GA activity) to get 700 to a 1000 hours.

(Companies in question are Eastern, West Atlantic (formerly Altantic Airlines), the third one will remain nameless, insider information gained in confidence).

So overall outlay to get a job on a rare turboprop used by no other operator; 7K for an instructors rating, a year of working on an instructor pay (15 to 25 pound per flight hour, may a small retainer if lucky), then fronting between 12 to 18 k for a rare tp rating.

[BigNumber]

Well; from reading the various latter contributions it might be argued that my posts are indeed valid?

Life Experience? Can you elucidate where I might be lacking perhaps? Do you mean married, children, mortgage, permanent salaried flying job, Ex Military Pilot?

250 hours? Do you mean a quarter? or Annually? Or do you mean waiting at Signature EGGW (LTN)?

And here is the problem with pprune; Anonymity.

Clearly the identity of our contributors MUST stay anonymous but surely there is a place for transparent credentials? Am I offering an opinion lacking life experience? Lacking any professional Licence? Having never held and holding a Flying Job? sat in my Mums house logging 250hrs on FS98!:E This has been suggested by tarmac12 and who can blame him.

...................Or perhaps the truth is the polar opposite?

With things so tough is there not a place for an honesty / transparency thread where wannabes can gain proper credible advise from people that actually fly for a living? Having climbed the slippery pole to get into long term, tenable, positions paying family supporting salaries. Suely, if proven worthy, these posts hold more weight? More Wheat, Less Chaff; thus the twaddle little noodle posts could be viewed for what they are.

Properly moderated, I would be delighted to join a private forum having proven my hand (not my name); I wonder if tarmac12 would be? I doubt it.

Tarmac12, why do you despise P2F? You don't go down to the local golf club to sling abuse at the fee paying membership as they tee off at the 1st? They've paid their money so they are entitled to have a game. P2F is exactly the same; do you not think that Tiger Woods paid the odd green fee in the early days? Some will never turn pro but at least they have had a chance to use their licence and have some cherished memories to dine out on. No one is suggesting P2F is a job; it is however a lots of fun, and will have a better chance of leading to a job than gaining some FI time out of a grass strip.

[Gomrath]

May I ask you if you have payed to work to start your career?

Why do folk think that this is solely within aviation?
Many careers require that the potential employee have the skills and qualifications in place before being offered a job position and yes that does often mean having to fund your own training.
An employer can be choosy these days knowing that there is quite a large pool of candidates out there - aviation is no different.

[angelorange]

How many doctors pay to operate on you? How many tube drivers pay to carry passengers? How many solicitors pay you to take on your court case?

After you have qualified as a doctor, lawyer, bus driver, you are paid to do your job.

The way to stop this rubbish is to say no! If the airlines can't find the crews they will pay you to fly.

As for those who don't care if folk p2f as its not their money, well, if you are professional aviators then you should be concerned because it will affect your ts&cs very soon. If you are a passenger, you should expect the very best aircrew up front not a p2f cadet who is being ripped off and will be back on the dole queue in a couple of months with less airbus time than the min required for a real job.

As for those that claim p2f cadets are now getting commands - piffle and twaddle! Name some! I just met 5 a320 guys who are out of work because of p2f.

As for those who claim instructing is for low wage earners - well at least they earn! Actually they earn £43k in some uk flying schools.

PPRUNE and BALPA should be ashamed of themselves for allowing p2f advertising at all.

[turbine100]

Regarding Curd, some finished his type rating courses and P2F scheme via BMI, joined EZY and then got chopped. Some finished the BMI line training, thinking they would get an interview via parc for EZY to find EZY changed their requirements. Not a good feeling if you have training debts and paid for all of this.

Regarding P2F, the CAA's should be stopping it from happening. If an airline needs a FO, they should pay them a salary and advertise the job. It stops experienced pilots from other operators being able to move positions, undermines the union, potentially introduces a negative culture and atmosphere within an operator etc.

A safety argument could perhaps be used if a person has a large amount of debt, increasing their stress and knowing they have to perform if gaining short term contracts at the end of their P2f scheme to be able to continue, clear their debts and not go bankrupt.

[favete linguis]

Regarding Curd, some finished his type rating courses and P2F scheme via BMI, joined EZY and then got chopped. Some finished the BMI line training, thinking they would get an interview via parc for EZY to find EZY changed their requirements. Not a good feeling if you have training debts and paid for all of this.


I've heard from a few sources that some previous customers of curds have taken legal action against him. I am not aware of the outcome, but am led to believe it didn't reach court, which implies curd perhaps doesn't want it getting to court incase the claim is successful which would open the door for all the others in a similar position to bring successful claims. Certainly wouldn't want that debt.

The CAA cannot legislate against this kind of scheme, it needs to be introduced through changes in the law. There is nothing stopping anyone offering type training.

What does need to stop is the airlines accepting these schemes as a source of 'labour'. This is made more difficult when curd and the person liaising with him at ezy were best buddies since their school days.

[tarmac12]

Big number,

I would go so far as to say would be happy to talk to you on the phone about my views but thats not really the spirit of pprune. But if you really want to I can PM you my number.

Next,

In your last post you say that p2F is fun. I'm sure 99% of guys doing it are sweating because of the money they spent on it. The added stress of wether they secure employment afterwards and not just flushed another 40 odd thousand whatevers down the toilet in pursuit of the dream. If it was only cashed up super rich people doing it for a laugh then no problem. It's their money. The problem is that it's not very rich people doing it. Most will be paying it off for years. They won't be at Gordom Ramsey's recalling the experience to his/her toff mates!

As to why I hate p2F. Firstly, who came up with it? Did the pilots union think of it to give new guys a better chance of emplymont? NO. Was it a government scheme to get more guys into flying? NO. Was it thought up by an airline as means of raising revenue off desperate kids who think it's the answer? YES. It is not a recognised means of pilot training. It's a slickly advertised scheme that if you listen to the spin by the sales team they will have you thinking that they are only there to help you and the fact that you have to pay them a large amount of money is regrettable but we are not a charity you know.

I can't see how joining a golf club is the same as pay to fly. Most people go to golf clubs to have FUN. Oh but you think p2F is also FUN. You pay fee's to use the greens and equipment. No one at the golf club is promising you a job as a pro if you pay them a huge sum of money.

As for the life experience I judge it by how many things you have been through and what you took away from it. Sure having kids and mortgage's is part of gaining it but you don't need to have them to have life experience. A good judge of it is how easy it is to scam someone. Guess what? The younger you are and the less time you have had experiencing the world means less life experience.

"But its the only way to get the 500 hour minimum required by most operators" I can tell you the 500 hours is only there to stop them getting flooded with 250 hour wannabee's Resume's. I can honestly say that most applicants would have more than the requirement. They have to set the bar somewhere. Where I work the minimum is 500 hours, CPL-ME-IR and rated on type. The rated on type weeds out most of the low timers but the majority of Resume's we see have much more than 500 hours (750-1500 is the norm).
When the airlines run out of Resume's then the minimums will come down. This won't happenn for a while yet. So after you guys get your 500 on type and find out the minimim just went to 750 hours on type what will you do? Pay for another 250 hours?

Sorry for the rambling nature of the post, I couldn't ref Bignumbers one while I wrote it.

[Gligg]

A golf player pays green fees to use a product or service, as does an airline PASSENGER.
A golf coach, caddie, greenskeeper, or anyone else EMPLOYED there earns an income, as does (or should) an airline pilot.

[Agaricus bisporus]

The reason P2F is so despised is that it is simply immoral and is destroying the nature of what once used to be a superb profession.

It is immoral because on the job training - type rating and line training - is purely the responsibility of the airline and not the pilot. To charge for this is immoral. To bribe the company to employ you in preference to someone who doesn't have a rich daddy or a house to mortgage is equally immoral.

Carry on like this and in 10 years we'll be paying for the bloody fuel too .

You P2Fs made your own bed. Lie on it, and if you don't like it go buy a job elsewhere. But stop whingeing - you volunteered for this. Caveat emptor.

[BigNumber]

Firstly; Tarmac a very happy New Year to you. It's back to work for me today positioning to a northern uk base (through Victoria if you fancy a coffee?) to start my run of days on, so yes; I actually hold a licence;)

I wouldn't take issue with much you just posted,:-

however:-

1. No one is promised guaranteed employment following a P2F. It is what it is. A chance to have a turn at flying a modern passenger aircraft and exercise the licences held in a Commercial environment.

It will however, IMO, add to the CV and give a much better chance of gaining a job than 200 hours MEP and a spot of FI time. At least the usual 500hrs on type application criteria is now met.

2. Everyone seems focused on the assertion that holding a licence instantly implies being a professional pilot, hence the inability to identify with my analogy of the Golf Club membership. Holding a CPL does not make anyone a professional pilot. P2F is not professional flying, it is at the very best a period of training but more obviously a paid for experience to enjoy. It is not employment. It is however Fun; I would understand that you are a professional pilot ie flying for reward, do you not enjoy flying for flying sake? salarly needs asside. Not all golfers at the golf club are, or ever will turn pro. But, they can all enjoy golf and have a fun experience at the club.

3. Safety is the job of the regulator before anyone suggests that joe public are being placed in danger. Joe Public are quite happy with the subsidized airfares thankyou. P2F ers provide a valuable income stream to a struggling airline market. P2F ers hold a licence, LPC, OPC, Line Cx, and can operate just as well as anyone else but they are not pro's. Many would like to be and view the P2F as a CV boost.

Finally, responsibility for financial restraint rests with the individual. Those of us with 'life experience' know how to ballance the books and make the ends meet. I would hope that the vast majority of people would not bankrupt themselves to get a go on the P2F ride? However, if they can afford it, let them have their fun........ some might get the chance to turn pro.

[bloodsucker]

It is however Fun; I would understand that you are a professional pilot ie flying for reward, do you not enjoy flying for flying sake? salarly needs asside.

Kudos to you, sir. Agree with what you said. It makes no sense being a professional pilot if you lose the passion to fly! However, there is still the other side of the argument that it's kinda ridiculous for airlines to charge for TR and line. If someone has a CPL and all the other quals and he paid for it himself, fine. But it doesn't make sense for him to still have to pay for TR and line. It isnt a large sum for the airline anyway as compared to sponsoring a CPL and I don't get why the airline doesn't just sponsor the TR. Its kinda pointless to squeeze out these relatively small amounts out of applicants when they can so obviously earn hundreds of times by hiring this guy.

[fwjc]

What you get with P2F is people who have rich parents. What you don't get is people who have the best skills and drive to be the best pilot they can be. If it's all handed to you on a plate, why would you need to be so driven? I know someone whose parents were plenty rich enough to pay for him to study full time. Even so it took him almost two years to get his writtens because, frankly, he just wasn't that bright, even though he's a nice enough chap. Anyone self funding would have had to give up long before then.

It's not dissimilar to the current situation with UK Universities. Those from a privileged background get to go, even if they're not the brightest spark. Those from less privileged backgrounds may go, but leave with crippling debt that for the long term leaves them on the back foot. Then there are those who are genuinely smart, with incredible aptitude, who just plain and simple can't raise £50k - £100k just like that. I would rather hire someone who really wanted it in their bones and was really skilled and knows how to work hard.

Seems the airlines would choose quantity (of spare cash) over quality...

[favete linguis]

Big Number, you make a reasonable and balanced argument, however, I understand curds original rhetoric has been toned down. Maybe he has learnt his lesson.

1. No one is promised guaranteed employment following a P2F. It is what it is. A chance to have a turn at flying a modern passenger aircraft and exercise the licences held in a Commercial environment.

I understand his advertising stated:
Once you have been trained, YOU will be a high quality commodity and we have several airlines waiting to sign you up as a direct entry First Officer with full salary and benefits.

Evidently those several airlines failed to materialise and easyjet was never one of them. In short curd is a snake-oil salesman, focussed on financial gain and when his P2F efforts fail to produce results he will look elsewhere.

I agree with your other assertions, but would add the caveat that people considering such schemes be fully aware of what they are signing up to and the debate here may encourage them to think likewise.

[socrates]

P2F is what it say on the lid, nothing more nothing less.

I doubt jobs were ever offered or even available through these schemes. :=

[unimuts]

Nothing will change, those rich enough will take the fast route to the RHS of a Boeing or Airbus, those that dont will have to try other means. Sadly, with the increasing costs and money up front for type ratings, its harder to find alternate routes, unless you have the money.

People need to make money and with recruitment agencies getting in on the act, and cutting deals, then we all will become slaves to them.

Sad fact is we have no one trying to look after our interests as pilots, Balpa look after BA staff, CAA not interested and so we are all on our own.

So i think stop belly aching and and either go with the flow or find another job.Its not going to change is it ?

Would listing these P2F airlines change things ? Does anyone have a list of these airlines anywhere ?

Happy New Year all, same old :mad: different year.

[prax687]

For those who consider P2F the best or no other opt to start their career
must take a look at the Lion air threads...

[CaptHugo]

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/455979-demise-air-line-pilot-2.html

P2F always opens up a hornet's nest. And yet, it's often hard to define. Airlines in the States usually had higher flight time minimums to get hired but some operators would sell a block of hours to anyone wanting to occupy the right seat, often a foreign national who couldn't legally be employed. Then there's buy-a-job or buy-an-upgrade. With some commuters, there was even the possibility that one could buy a direct entry into the Captain's seat. Why not? PIC time is more valuable....How much more do I have to pay for RJ time versus turbo prop?

Then, there's Southwest. You Need a 737 type rating to get hired even though they don't officially care who pays for it or where you get it. But...everyone seems to get it at the same place; an outfit that has an "in" with the interview board.

Still, it's a pretty useless rating if you aren't flying a 737.

When the economy is down, pay for training/P2P seems to creep back when the market should dictate that it go away. But youngsters are swayed by those glossy career mags and the idea that they need to be ready for the next boom in hiring.

I expect that even though there are thousands of unemployed pilots with high time, airlines will be seeking relief from the new requirement that new hires have 1,500hrs.:ugh:

[felixflyer]

Exactly, with the amount of 250hr pilots already on the market and the number still coming through flying schools, the airlines need some way of narrowing down the amount of applicants and the hiring process.

One way of doing this is asking for a TR & 500hrs on type. They could ask for a large chunk of cash up front and train them themselves, some of them do. If there are many people applying with TR & hours though why would they? As long as these people pass the sim check etc. then it saves the airline a large amount of time, money and risk.

IF the supply of QUALITY TR'd candidates with hours dries up then things may change. This will not mean that everybody has a chance with just 250 hours though. For the airlines to start taking on these people and paying for the TR etc. things would have to change dramatically and I just can't see that happening any time soon.

I would think they would start either asking for a load of cash up front or asking for 700 maybe even 1500 hours. Whichever you choose it will cost you money.

[KAG]

things would have to change dramatically and I just can't see that happening any time soon.

By stopping to be over optimistic concerning the hiring, by informing about the fact there is not enough jobs for everybody, even if everybody would love to be a pilot, by simply training less pilots.

The more you will encourage peoples to go for it, the more pay to work scam mafia business will appear, supply (jobs) not matching demand (wannabes).

[felixflyer]

But that is how the FTO's make their money. That is how they stay is business. Do you really expect these schools to stop taking on new students because there may not be jobs at the end?

Thats a bit like asking your local butcher to try and talk people into going vegetarian.

Its up to the potential student to inform themselves and any source of income (parents etc.). This site is one of the best places for that.

[English Rendezvous]

Guys you are completely not seeing the big picture!

Nobody likes P2F pilots! YOU are killing the industry. The resentment among the normal pilot work force is enormous.

YOU are partly responsible for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry. You take, where you can, jobs from experienced FOs (Ryanair etc..) You have no experience at all.

I personaly resent the CAA for allowing it to happen. And I think guys and girls who decided to take this avenue to the RHS should sit back and think about ones dignity and self respect! because you earn respect! You simply don't buy it! Don't admit it later on down the path. Because people like myself will never respect you!

Go get involved in the instructing, Turbo Props industry. Build hours, build experience and do what many generations of pilots have done before you. Respect them and respect yourself.

[redED]

Nobody likes P2F pilots! YOU are killing the industry. The resentment among the normal pilot work force is enormous.

YOU are partly responsible for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry. You take, where you can, jobs from experienced FOs (Ryanair etc..) You have no experience at all.

Sorry but in my eyes Ryanair FOs are as bad as any, paying for a type rating to work as a contractor is the biggest reason for "for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry".

[magnificent_man]

With respect, I believe it is the older generation that have seriosuly let down the young aspiring cadets of today. The constant degredation of T&Cs in the industry and the ridiculous training schools and TRTOs that have been set up to exploit the young.

I know several very capable people who have payed for type ratings and some even line training. Most found work through doing the line training. None of them agreed with it beforehand, none of them saw it as fair to others who couldn't afford it, none of them felt great about it. These where all good guys - not spoilt little rich kids being bought a job at all. All of them tried incredibly hard to find any work they could (by that I mean way way above and beyond what anyone would do for any other job) and eventually came to the conclusion that they had no other option. All of them would have bitten off the arm of a turboprop operator had they been offered a job, they certainly weren't desperate for jet time straight away. In fact they regretted skipping the fun and real flying of a turboprop operation. I stress again they where all very capable nice guys. It would be easier to say they where demons but it was simply not the case.

The critics of P2F are absolutely right in every point they make - it is horrendous. An absolute dispicable travesty. Perhaps though some of the critics are looking at it through the eyes of someone already with a job and they have no idea just how hard it is for those starting off in this industry.
- There are NO turboprop jobs essentially.(Or the chances of getting one are tiny)
- Several people I know have done instructors ratings (Only one has been employed, a year after doing the rating, he can expect around 300hours a year flying)
- Everyone keeps going on about instructors ratings - Surely this is only suitable for people who have an apptitude to teach? The best instructors I have met love instructing and it is not simply a stepping stone to an airliner.
- Having spent between £40k and £80k on your training the chances of getting a job are pretty much non-existant. It's a simple fact. Do you dive in deeper and get a job, or do you give up? That is the choice these guys are faced with and I believe they had no choice but to dive deeper.

P2F is a travesty - however its not the guys doing it who should be criticised, it is the companies offering initial training, the trto's, and the airlines for not ever focusing on the great potential of some of these young, very capable guys who would be an asset to any company.

You expect these young guys to stop their career before it has even started just because you have a 'moral' objection? Get real. What can they do about their situation? Sit on their backsides or go and do something about it? Its not their responsibility - it is the older generation who have not stood up for their profession and have not nurtured and looked after the young hopefulls you see today. And by the way - the first person who payed for his type rating has a lot to answer for!

[BerksFlyer]

You have to pay to instruct, pay to get into turbo props jets etc, it's all pay pay pay to fly however you want to look @ it I think.... Oh & breaking news:a certain low cost operator is set to create around 1000 new jobs based in Europe, amongst these jobs there are said to be vacancies for pilots(who have to p2f). Good or bad news...?

No.

There's a distinct difference between paying for a rating and paying for line training - which is paying to work. Paying for 'line training' means that you are conducting revenue earning flights for the airline, making them money, and paying to do so. You are taking the place of an FO who would begetting paid by the airline to do the same job. An FO who works for the airline. This element of directly taking somebody's job and rendering them obsolete (why pay someone to do something that others are willing to pay to do?) isn't present in paying for a type rating. Sure, it's a great shame that paying for a type rating is practically the norm now, but paying to work is really a different beast altogether.

And to answer the question... why would it be a good thing? The benefit of job creation for an economy is that it adds to the amount of people with disposable income that they can then spend in order to boost the economy. Why would a company taking vast sums off of individuals so they can create wealth for the company (responsible capitalism anyone?) by taking somebody elses paid job be a good thing? It's not a job if you're paying for it is it.

[DoleBoy]

I have decided to copyright the following terms
P2LS, P2SFO, P2TC, P2TRI, P2TRE, and P2FOD.

Left a few out but that my friends and colleagues is
Where the industry is heading, funny haven't seen
Many other industries adopting this stance, maybe
P2ACCOUNT and P2HR might not be so popular.

Not bitter or twisted just can't get my hands on 30k
Otherwise I would sign up for a summer job at
Butlins too.

Hi de hi

[galaxy flyer]

From the Land of Darwinian Anglo-Saxon Capitaism, the USA, why does P2F exist in Europe?. It has never gotten far here, yes a few, but any Chief Pilot would laugh in the face of anyone who paid to fly here. Let alone make it virtual requirement. With the exception of WN's long-standing B737 requirement, no airline does it here.

[BigNumber]

Am I missing something here?

It is quite possible for me to go to Brands Hatch; enjoy several laps on the track ( under track day supervision ) and, whilst there's credit on the meter, continue to have fun. It also makes me a better rider.

It does not make me a moto gp rider; I am not Barry Sheen; but I am able, by paying, able to enjoy a positive experience.

My money helps support Brands Hatch, helps create a few jobs, and supports the broader motor sport industry.

Should we all go down, pitch protest tents and wave banners?

Seems' to me the real problem is perception; P2F is exactly that. A bit of fun for those that can afford it. If it plumps a CV and leads to paid work that's super; if not, at least Rupert got the chance to use his little blue book. Frankly, as long as the wealthy off-spring of the upper middle continue to subsidize my air fares I am delighted. I continue to smile at them at 'Concorde'. Jolly Good Show.

[BerksFlyer]

BigNumber,

Clearly you are. Your analogy doesn't work. Does driving a car around a track purely for your pleasure displace somebody who is being paid to do the very same thing? Are fare paying passengers sat in the back of your sports car? Driving a car round a track is purely a thing you would do for pleasure. Acting as an FO on revenue generating flights is a job.

I'm not surprised this rot has been allowed to set in if people can't see this?

If only there was a higher barrier to entry to this industry... then maybe there would be more self respect and fewer posers paying their way to the front so they can play pilot.

[DoleBoy]

Mate of mine was taken ill tonight, doctor diagnosed
Appendicitis, so my mate asked how much the surgeon
Would pay to remove them, problem is he has now been
Waiting for 3 hours and is doubled up in pain, but the
surgeon says he hasn't studied for 7 years at medical
school and a further 4 years post qualification for someone
to take the mickey, he's a professional.

But then again it's ok because even that may
become the norm if the new low cost NHS model
is implemented.

If BigNumber can name me 4 other industries
where P2WORK is the norm, I will have a bonfire
With my Professional Pilots Licence. DB.

Oops hang on maybe that bonfire is closer than I
Think

BBC News - Graduates paying to work for free (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16052301)

The last paragraph is interesting, and also the acceptance
by young graduates that this is ok saddens me.

It is hard work and customer service that make a company
viable, not the employees hard earned savings.

But the public demand cheaper holidays, I remember going
On holiday to Europe as a youth, aircraft were still full and
The tickets cost a sensible price, so you tell me is it the masses
Or the industry.

Thankfully Flight Safety hasn't been compromised though as the
Poor kid in the right hand seat knows he can't make a mistake and
Get chopped as he won't be able to pay the loan back.

New series Grumpy Old Pilots, now that I would pay to watch.

[BerksFlyer]

There would possibly be a market for paying to drive trains. There is never any shortage of willing train drivers. Yet train drivers get paid a good salary during training and an even better one after training. Not a penny has to leave the employee's pocket. Just as it should be.

Why is it only this industry? Is it just that aviation is truly the most cut-throat, ruthless, opportunist industry with CEOs such as O'Leary et al who are calling the shots? So many industries could go the way of pay to work if they really wanted to. Or is it that only pilots lack the foresight to actually pay to work?

[BerksFlyer]

The train drivers and their unions have done well to preserve the Ts and Cs of new hires. BALPA have done very little to do the same for aviation in the UK it seems.

DoleBoy,

The fact that they were talking about media placements speaks volumes and I think parallels can be drawn. A bit like for pilots, there is a large over-saturation of media graduates. I have never come across an engineering/pure science internship that you have to pay for. Engineering/proper science graduates are not so over-common and so employees will be less able to take the p*ss with things like this. Maybe it is simply coming down to a surplus of demand that is making paying to work valid. These are my thoughts at least.

[DoleBoy]

BerksFlyer couldn't agree more lots of guys who have already
Paid a small fortune for a chance of the dream, and as is always
The case where supply outstrips demand, someone always finds
A way to filter the wheat from the chaff, sadly they have chosen
To filter the have nots over the have's.

But nobody ever promised me a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow, so sadly for now it's join em or be beaten.

Maybe we should start up P4EVA, the solution to your crewing
Problems, all our candidates are guaranteed quality wallets with
Years of paying ability. ;-)

[Ollie23]

Engineering/proper science graduates are not so over-common and so employees will be less able to take the p*ss with things like this.

These jobs tend to be much more highly skilled than flying a modern airliner, so it's to be expected.

Any competant person, with sufficient cash and dedication can become qualified to fly a modern jet, thats not the case for most highly skilled Engineering/Science jobs etc

If only there was a higher barrier to entry to this industry

Quite.

[A330ETOPS]

I think its disgusting, however it seems to be the only way and its not going to change.

I finished an integrated course 4 years ago. First time passes in all flight tests and 97% average on atpl theory.

In the first 3 years i only got 2 interviews, and was always sending out cv's etc.

I decided to do a jet rating recently. No ive not got rich parents, but i earn enough money with my own business, enabling me to do so.

In 6 months, ive had 4 interviews, and passed a sim check in China recently. This shows that having the rating on your licence makes you look a lot more attractive. Sitting on your ass sending out cvs hasnt done a lot of good in my opinion. Ive travelled the globe looking for it, and seems to have been more successful.

Been offered 2 other jobs out of the 4 interviews, however they want cash for line training. I draw the line at paying for the rating, hence declining the job offers.

Keeping the rating valid every 12 months is only gonna cost you an extra £200-300 then doing it in a seneca.

Im completely against p2f. Its wrong. After spending 100k getting my cpl/ir, i dont think the extra 20k is going to do much harm, trying to get you over the last hurdle.

People moan on here and say theres no jobs after going out and getting just a rating with low hours. Thats b@&£@cks. If you want the job bad enough,you'll get it, however it wont come to you

[OutsideCAS]

If Captains in existing airlines were charged in the same way as their colleagues in the right seat, the rot would stop tomorrow. Not at all saying that is the way to go, but it would highlight the problem.

[Roope]

@A330ETOPS: Your main point is that a TR helps. However, you just said yourself, you got it 6 months ago, and ever since that, you only got 4 interviews, and 2 real possibilities, which are P2F. That's pretty much where anyone with 200 hours is right now (EJ for example), so your TR didnt help at all, just wanted another huge pile of cash.

Another? Yes. The main thing I got out of your message is that you spent 100K GBP getting cpl/ir/me, because you went for the fancy integrated course... You can get the same stuff for about half of that amount. So at the end of the day, its 50K vs. 120K, and we're still exactly in the same shoe. People should not do TRs OR integrated craps.

[A330ETOPS]

@Roope,

Sorry Roope, but i did mention that i recently passed a sim check with an airline, and am about to start anytime soon. This one isn't P2F, and you get paid from day 1, even no cost for line training.

On the otherhand, i totally agree with you about 'Integrated'. Looking back, i wouldnt have taken this route. I would have done it modular, as i've had saved a **** load of cash.

On the other hand, i had a bloody good time and feel i had the best training i could have asked for. I was working for an airline at the time, and did the course on advice from the current DFO. The airline however isn't around now, so didnt end up with the job i'd hoped for at the end of it all!

[Johnnywings]

I, like many, am a beginner caught out in the P2F scam. MOL has ruined prospects for a job, unless you're some rich playboy, only doing it for kicks. I never heard any of this going through training, or when I was handing over ridiculous amounts of money for that. I think the current system will create serious problems, not only to the lives of prospective pilots like me, but to the industry as a whole.

I can't see it happening, but I would love to see a total strike of all pilots, both employed and those seeking jobs. To avoid, and dissuade anyone from working for airlines that use this method of money making.

There is hardly any other industry that uses the same model, earning money from staff rather then customers. Would David Beckam be playing football if he had to pay to get on the pitch? Would Usain Bolt run if it cost him so much just to start? We have to stop this before it spreads and becomes the norm.

Is there any support for something like this, or will everyone just let it P2F takeover.

[Bealzebub]

Sure.

When you say "job" do you mean "any job" or do you mean "airline pilots job?"

How about a system where you only get the chance to plant your derriere in the right hand seat of an airliner with an Airline Transport Pilots Licence. That is an absolute minimum of 1500 hours and at least 21 years of age? After all isn't that what an ATPL is designed for?

Given the paucity of aerial work type jobs in many countries, that would generally eliminate a portion of the potential competition. Once aquired the ATPL would then be the baseline qualification to apply for any airline pilot vacancies. Of course, and has been the case for many decades now, competition will set the bar much higher than that. Airlines traditionally look for around 2000 hours and 500 hours turbine time as a base minimum. That could be found by spending say 10 years in the military (if you are good enough to qualify) or finding work at second and third level commuter/turboprop operators and building up the necessary levels of experience to move on up the ladder.

Of course even then, those without the stakemoney (turbine time) might feel tempted to buy it, and undoubtably there would be businesses willing to sell it. Vanity line training would probably be just as useless in securing meaningful employment as it is now, but at least the higher baseline requirements would reduce the overall numbers.

In all reality, this is pretty much the way it has always been. Regulatory changes coming shortly in the USA suggest this may well become the wider norm' in the future as well. I can see a more structured fasttrack airline cadet programme being restricted to a handful of approved schools (de facto it already exists.) But this 200-2000 hour "sea of pilots" needs a more clearly defined set of regulatory structures in place, to help prevent some of the current abuses and cloudy thinking, that are clearly so endemic within a significant portion of this demographic.

If you need saving from yourself, this might prove a slightly better hope, than the idea that anybody is going strike to assist you in that particular goal.

[Fullagas]

Pay for training only hurts yourself, in the long run. It sends the message you don't value yourself or your skills, and you'd stab your co-worker to get one meager step ahead. At the same time, you're helping management stuff their pockets.

If no one paid for training, the schools would dry up (as they should). If you continue to make short-sighted decisions, you'll continue to suffer. We should instead support stronger labor laws and unions. Pilots as a group can send the very strong message that they think as a unit and act accordingly.

Those who defend PFT as 'the way it is' are usually those who have already sold out. They are the ones management knows can be pushed around and manipulated with fear tactics. They've lost the knowledge that they need us more than we need them.

After the CFI ratings, there's no need for PFT.

[Journey Man]

...a good post.

[Groundloop]

I never heard any of this going through training,

What planet were you living on at the time? It appears that you were handing over "ridiculous amounts of money" without having done even the most basic research into the prospective job market.

[KAG]

Good post Johnny.

Paying to work with paying passenger on board is a fraud, because everything is already paid for by the passengers. This is an international trade law under the World Trade Organisation: one cannot sell his products lower than what it initially cost him, this is to protect fair trade competition.
Renting an airplane for touch and goes without passenger on board, renting a simulator without paying passenger on board, obviously, is very bad HR policy but could be justified in some ways, like somebody has to pay for this simulator, your company or you, that's a fact: we know where the money goes to.
However paying to work when there is nothing to pay for looks like corruption money to me. If pilot unions wanted to fight this one, there is a good chance they would win.

If somebody doesn't have the level to fly an airliner, for whatever reason (not enough experience), so he shouldn't be in this airplane, there is no way to use the low experience level to make an individual pay for something that is already paid for.

[favete linguis]

Kag, an interesting post and a quick search reveals this:

BBC News - Graduates paying to work for free (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16052301)

What is interesting is the comment at the end:

"The government's own lawyers have warned work without pay is often illegal and HMRC should be investigating companies which offer unpaid and paid-for internships."

Given that easyJet are the main culprit of this in recent years and the numbers that went through on the P2F scheme there could be quite a large sum in question involved. IIRC there were in the region of 40+ P2F pilots paying in the region of £10k (that was the figure being suggested) so no paltry amount in total; £400,000

Should HMRC decide to investigate I imagine some senior heads could roll.

[BigNumber]

What a truly splendid idea!

I am sure no one will mind if I laugh this afternoons flight off!!

No One makes anyone P2F; it's all about choice. Noddy Wings; I would suggest that you don't enlist in any of these schemes; I'm sure a job will appear for you one day:). Keep sending your CV out!!! :ok:

[favete linguis]

Noddy Wings LOL

Big Bummer :E

[fa2fi]

P2F is only going to become more common. There will never be a shortage of people who have access to £30k (in addition to what they already paid). It really is a career for the rich now or the very lucky. A strike wouldn't work as there will always be a queue of people with cash in their hand ready to start a TR.

[KAG]

Favete linguis:
Interesting indeed! They talk about the work for free phenomenon, we are passed that one here, that's pay to work and corruption! If you add to this fact CRM teach us that our financial/debt situation has an infuence on the safety of the flight, I feel BBC news will have a great scandal to offer sooner than later, only a matter of time...

[WX Man]

Great! If everyone without a job stops applying for one and everyone who is already working goes on strike, then I'll sneak in there under the picket lines and get that jet job that I'm after.

(Don't worry, I won't really).

It's a nice idea, but unfortunately there are still muppets/rich kids who will P2F.

FWIW, I am still of the opinion that the only way to get a jet job now is to get a MPL and then a recommendation from Oxford or Jerez at the same time that the likes of EZY, RYR, TCX, MON, etc are looking for half a dozen cheap FOs to employ for a few years before they :mad: off to work for BA/VS/EK.

Call it a business model...?

[A330ETOPS]

People are never going to stop paying for training. Unfortunately it's the done thing nowadays. It's ok people saying 'Stop paying for it and then the airlines will have to', but let's face it - its not going to happen.

I've plenty of friends who did P2F, and are now with major airlines such as EK, living the life, earning :mad: loads of cash. I don't see how they're suffering?????

[fa2fi]

Oh another thing. If you ha e been chewed up and spat out by the p2f system then I have zero sympathy. You knew the risks and took them. Can't see current pilots striking. Why would they? They have their jobs, theyre ok.

[Groundloop]

FWIW, I am still of the opinion that the only way to get a jet job now is to get a MPL and then a recommendation from Oxford or Jerez at the same time that the likes of EZY, RYR, TCX, MON,

That would not work. You need to be "selected" by an airline BEFORE you can start an MPL as the final part of the MPL includes training on the "selecting" airline's SOPs.

[kolob666]

I think that it is not only short sighted but self defeating to go the P2F route. A solid GA back ground can give you skills you will never attain going straight to the right seat of an airliner.
Large jets are not nearly as forgiving as small piston or turboprops and require more skill in handling. 99.9 percent of the time everything works fine and the autopilot goes on at 400 feet and you are done flying for the day, but as soon as something goes wrong, if you don't have a strong hand flying background to fall back on you can find yourself and the hundreds sitting behind you, in real trouble. Air France for instance.
There is a lot of talk about it being good fun to have a go in the right seat, but you fail to realize that there are hundreds of actual people who paid hard earned dollars to take that flight, and they didn't pay to be frightened by the inept handling of a 200 hr wannabe who has no business being up at the pointy end.
You are paying to occupy a position that would have formerly been filled by an experience turbo prop pilot, who's departure from his old job would allow you an avenue to learn the skills necessary to properly handle an airliner.
If you speak to any training captain about this issue they will tell you that the difference in skill level is night and day. And that my friends is where you earn your respect in this industry, it's easy to tell who the good operators are, skill speaks for itself.
I think it is a cop out to say that it's the only way to get into the industry these days. It's the only way to get in straight away without putting in any time and effort. If you do go that route you will never have any sympathy from me if you complain about your pay in the future, you have already set the precedent , of what you think you are worth.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Groundloop is correct. Those FTOs that say you can do the MPL and then they 'place you' are not what they seem. Check lasors or a great publication called so you want to be a pilot. Found on the GAPAN website.

P2F is an aggresive cancer that is spreading fast. The only way to kill it is to stop people signing their fortunes away to exploited. The buck stops with those who are contemplating such madness.

And for those who would dismiss my comments, just hang around a FR base and ask those contract pilots how much they love their job/employer. Might explain why so many of them are off to the ME.

Agreed options are slim, but have a look at how those waiting in the BA hold pool are realising that 'just doing my time and getting the rating' in EZY and FR has help feed the loco expansion, squeezing the T and Cs of the dream BA job they aspired to. Plenty of threads on here covering that.

[WX Man]

OK, Groundloop, I stand corrected. But it just seems that that's the case from where I'm sitting: where [relatively] experienced guys with what would have been a good CV 10 years ago are getting overlooked in favour of 200hr MPL chaps.

It seems that 90% of the "starter" jet jobs these days are going to guys fresh out of flying school. I don't know a single FR or EZ F/O now who joined from a background of instructing, aerial work, or bashing around Yurrup in a turboprop... and I can only think of one F/O in Jet2 who joined from that background in the last 2 years (and I do know quite a few in all of those companies).

I know whinging isn't going to get me anywhere, but it will at least make me feel better for the next 10 minutes!!!!

[WX Man]

Bravo, kolob666. If only the rest of the world could see it like that!

[KAG]

It seems that 90% of the "starter" jet jobs these days are going to guys fresh out of flying school. I don't know a single FR or EZ F/O now who joined from a background of instructing, aerial work, or bashing around Yurrup in a turboprop... and I can only think of one F/O in Jet2 who joined from that background in the last 2 years (and I do know quite a few in all of those companies).
It's possible that's because you never worked outside of your country.
Many airlines have a total time restriction, and even some countries like the US have a civil authority restriction concerning total time. In Canada 99% of the jet airliners newly hired F/O come from a multi piston/ turboprop background, could go on...

bashing around Yurrup in a turboprop

yes that's for sure not for everybody...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3126/2447857640_e30bed45a4.jpg

[WX Man]

Yet another thing our cousins across the pond have got right, and we in Europe have got wrong!

Nice pic of a Kingair btw. Considerably smarter than the ones I fly ;)

[punk666]

The EU market is different to the yanks. Their regional and private sector is bigger than ours hence why instructing and aerial work and corporate work is a realistic way of building hours before joining the airlines.

I was down the local flying school which 'used' to be busy but now its completely dead due to mainly financial reasons on the students behalf. So the instructors are left twiddling their thumbs, so really instructing isnt a great option. Aerial work hmmm how many of those do you know off the bat? Parachute jump trips? Well you need around 500-1000 TT and high PIC time which comes down to more money.

The cost to hire a C172 is about £148 per hour assuming you finish with 300 hours to add another 400 hours comes to £59200 excluding landing fees.
And at the end of this you will have 700TT around 300 pic time yet you meet non of the requirements to get a job on the jets and you dont meet the requirements even for Qatar SO position.

For £21,000 including Vat you will have a B737 SSTR add another £20,000 your on a Line training program + 1year employment by the end of this you will have close to or even more than 1500 TT & 500+ type.

You can see why its very attractive in these tough times. The problem is airlines having high requirements, which the insurance companies dont help and by having all the loco airlines having partnerships with CTC OAA taking on only those guys instead of the other modular guys who done the same training as they have.

CTC and OAA have paid their way in, its just sugar coated.

[763 jock]

A new low......

Ladies and Gentlemen

We need a partner for a Captain on a course starting 13th Feb in London Heathrow.

The course is 4 weeks away so time is of the essence.

If you are thinking of doing a type rating and line training soon we are able to offer the line training at cost to fill this particular slot.

Type rating £15,000 + vat

Base Training £6000 no vat

300 hours £26,000
500 hours £36,000

The above prices for the line flying includes the OPC, ID, Uniform and all the local taxes in Turkey for 5 and 7 months respectively.


You will need to pay for your own accommodation and travel.

Only JAA licence pilots please.

The price of the line flying is only applicable for this course date.

Respond to:

Regards

[favete linguis]

£50,000 minimum for this :mad:? Add travel, accommodation, food etc etc etc getting closer to £60,000

And its in Turkey - so expect long delays and little assistance. Atlas Air? Why not go direct to them and cut out these despicable middle men.

Who is peddling this scheme then?

Reading above, seems like its time for HMRC to investigate perhaps... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[pudoc]

I'd much rather do my training and then try to get a job doing anything at a relatively small airline and try to get my name around, make contacts and hopefully get a job with said airline as a pilot. The money would be better than instructing and I can use that extra cash to keep current. From what I've seen, some smaller airlines like to hire from within. That's not to say it's easy to get a job with an airline, it's probably easier than getting a job as a pilot though.

Sure you don't build as many hours, but as punk666 said, instructing isn't a great option. That's not to say it's a bad option either, but you need the rating then you're back at square 1 looking for a job.

That's what I'm likely to do anyway.

[KAG]

Punk666: The EU market is different to the yanks. Their regional and private sector is bigger than ours hence why instructing and aerial work and corporate work is a realistic way of building hours before joining the airlines.There are thousands and thousands of pilots flying for the regionals, corporate, or instructing in Europe, the airlines should hire among this pool ONLY like in north america. Let's first hire those thousands and thousands of pilots, then when the airlines will be short of experienced candidates we'll talk again.



You can see why its very attractive in these tough times.

Thing is that the discussion has never been on the fact Pay to Work is attractive or not.

Do you ask somebody who takes cocaine if the problem is attractiveness? Of course not. Problem is self respect, health and money.

Problem for Pay to Fly is that you have to pay to work (which is close to corruption), you don't build your experience that is necessary later to become captain, and you give the company the message you are their slave and they even can abuse you, it doesn't matter: after all you are only an airline pilot, not like you'd have huge responsabilities, high professional level, high background experience, and self confidence in reaching your goal via the honest entry doors.

Better be a cessna caravan pilot for life than an airline pilot who has no self respect.

The pilot job has in itself values that are necessary for the safety of the flight, like honesty, high experience level or self respect, and we will have to remind it to us again and again.


Punk666: in fact I more or less share your viewpoint, I only used some of your sentences to explain some details. Absolutely not against what you said, just used some parts of your post.

[Poeli]

Something from another perspective: I'm a wannabe since 10 years now (when I was around 12). From my 18 I've been looking for oppertunities to start flight training (ATPL). I had every chance to go to the bank, get some money and start flight training.. Maybe I wouldn't speak like this now if I had done it.
But what I feel is that a lot of guys who participate in the P2F are screwing things up for people who come after them. Why would an airline pay anyone to fly for them if they can get someone who pays THEM to fly?

I feel very angry every time I read stuff like this. The only one responsible for what you did, how much money you spent on flight training is YOU. Don't go ruin terms and conditions of other pilots because you suffer from the big shiny jet syndrome. Some say it's their only option. Well, why didn't you think about it before you started flight training? I'm at uni hoping to still go for flight training after I graduate. But every person who does P2F is less chance for others to go. I have common sense, I don't want to pay for work.

I'd rather be a C208 pilot all my life and get paid then fly 40 years on some 737 (like KAG said). Is it a shame to fly smaller airplanes and get paid to do so? You might say: 'there are no jobs, even for small airplanes'. Again, didn't you know this before you started flight training? I mean, I don't know how much money each one of you spent, but you should at least have had a B plan (and no, paying to fly is not a solid B-plan).
I really have trouble to understand all of this. You began flight training with the hope to go directly on a big shiny jet for the rest of your life. You invested a few times 10k and now you only see that there are not enough jobs for people with your expierence? I just don't buy it. Instead of doing another job (maybe in aviation, maybe not) and try to pay off you go to a corrupt company making you pay again for some hours. A position that should be a paid one. You are making more debts to probably get out of debts.

The only thing I want to add is: thank you idiots who p2fly. You're not only screwing an entire market up for yourself (I wouldn't care if it was only that), but also for others, young wannabe's, but at the same moment older pilots. This has gone from paying for a typerating to paying for line training. What's next, pay to do a walk around? Pay landing taxes at the airport you fly to as p2f pilot?

[Lakhan]

Reading numerous posts P2F seems to be a disease.

However, I've got one question which might make you think

...Would you take on a P2F route if you had the funds to do so? :ooh:

[muten]

Yes, and I believe most people will do too if after 6 months / one year they're still looking for the dream job. Sitting in your home watching your licenses expire is bad for your own economy and mental state.

[tarmac12]

I have met a Kuwaiti and an Omani who for whatever reason didn't get in to the Cadetships offered in their home countries. They were both told that if they went out and got a fATPL, type rated on a 737/320 with 150-250 hours they would get an interview. The airlines also said they would have to pass the same assesment as all other direct entry FO's but the TT minimum would be waived because they were locals.

Remember I said even the locals don't get a guarantee after P2F. Now these guys weren't short of a buck but even they saw it as back dooring because they either didn't have the brains or family connections to get in first time.

These guys don't have to pay anyone back or get a bank loan. Even after P2F if they still don't get in one said he will go to Uni in the UK and do a degree. Money no object.

These are they only guys I can see who can justify P2F

As for everone else, I don't think anyone really starts out with the intention of P2F. I see it like an addicted gambler. You pay 50/80k and no jackpot so you start chasing your losses by gambling more money instead of waiting it out or walking away.

[alfaaloop]

What's next, pay to do a walk around? Pay landing taxes at the airport you fly to as p2f pilot?

Careful- don't give them any ideas, seriously!!

[dudubrdx]

Everyone who is interested in disrupting P2F should sign up with these programs, under a false identity, send fake ( photoshopped ) licences for these programs and let them hang once they'll be asking why you didn't show up at training on Monday.
The airlines would be so pissed just by seeing that only half of the students have shown up, that they would have to scramble for pilots elsewhere, and thaht would end the P2F link.

[BigNumber]

I certainly hope that nobody follows dudubrdx flawed advice.

Why not go to tesco's, fill up your trolley with goods, place them on the conveyor belt and then wander off laughing. The same?

How many times.....

P2F is not a job; it is a chance to pay for an experience for those who want, and can afford to pay for it. Nothing more; nothing less.

Iff (mathematical term for if and only if) it leads to paid employment then that is very much a bonus; it is not a given.

Why not go and whinge at the people enjoying a meal at 'The Fat Duck'; are they robbing your dinner? They pay, they get.

Their money helps support the industry, heavily subsidises airfares, and they get my thanks. Infact, for some time the generousity of MOL's little chaps (actually their parents) often makes foreign travel possible for my family. P2F is just a naturally progression of MOL's original splendid idea. Hopefully MOL will climb aboard genuine P2F and airfares will be even further reduced. Lets hope so.

[punk666]

People the argument of it being moral and your own self respect means nothing in business.
Aviation is a business and these guys only talk numbers not emotions or feelings but ££££££££££££.

Having being round aviation for over 20 years ive learnt that the guy who plays the game fair gets trampled on the most. Unfortunately guys this industry is corrupt and will be for a long time. Jobs are given out internally, through word of mouth or even paying for it. The days of just applying and getting an interview are going to be over very soon seeing as recruitment equals more expense that could be cut down.

It cost nothing to have a recommended guy come in for a quick chat.

[DoleBoy]

BigNumber,

Once again I ask you to name 4 other professions
where people pay to work, I hope the tax authorities
In the countries within which the P2F schemes operate
are aware that Employers are not paying taxes for
these Employees. Sorry Volunteers.

Why the heck are all the P2F guys bothering with
expensive commercial licences when they are basically
paying for a series of trial lessons.

Come to think of it the Airlines are missing out on a
trick there, if all their employees paid to work, then
all airlines would be profitable.

You go to work and get paid for that work, no if's no
buts that is how it must be, if your F/O is
A profit centre then you don't have a viable business
and it's time the Civil Aviation Authorities of all countries
Involved suspend/revoke the AOC of anyone who operates
with P2F crew.

Will it ever happen No, will it continue Yes
even men/women/children who were part of the slavery
trade were paid in shelter and food.

Be careful what you wish for it might just come true.

[tarmac12]

Remember when jobs only required say 1000TT and maybe being type rated? Then it went to type rated with 150 hours on type. Then it went to 300 hours on type and now its generally 500 hours on type. Have you noticed the P2F companies offer 150,300 and 500 hour programs? I cant wait for the airlines to up the minimum to 750 hours on type. Just wait and see how long it takes for P2F outfits to start offering a 750 hour program.

Everyone who has just paid for 500 hours will go back and pay for more. I will sit back and laugh my arse off!!!!

[Bealzebub]

I can't say I ever remember it being like that, and I have been around quite a long time. Five hundred hours on type has always been something of a minimum bench mark for a type rated pilot. However it is rarely as simple as that. Recruitment that I am familar with, tends to look carefully at how and where experience has been aquired in an applicants background. Some of this stuff you really wouldn't touch with a bargepole. Not only because it is dubious, but also because the world is awash with applicants with good quality backgrounds.

For cadets, we provide the training and the experience. For experienced applicants we expect to see resumes that include recognised quality companies, and verifiable experience. I am sure it is the same for most quality airlines.

[tarmac12]

Bealzebub,

VAC only needed 300 hours on type for quite a while. Alot of Turbo prop contract gigs only used to require 300 or less. I remember Biz jet jobs only needing 100 hours on type but they don't figure in P2F usually.

What your saying about quality of previous employers and general background I agree with totally. If you believe what jetjockey says in the Lion Air thread there are around 300 expat FO's at Lion right now. I would bet 90% are pay to fly. Once these people start sending off Resume's to every half decent carrier that are left in the world they will quickly lift the minimum just to stop getting swamped by these people. 500 hours is just a filter and when the filter isn't effective they change it to suit the needs of the airline. If I was getting swamped by P2F resume's I would up it to 750 hours on type. Yes, having 500 hours just gets your Resume into the pile. It doesn't get you a guarantee of an interview. Try explaining that to the latest P2f grad.

If we are to believe what the good old economists are saying right now there will be much more pain before gain so even fewer jobs around for experienced guys and virtually none for the newbee.

[BigNumber]

Harsh words from DoleBoy.

Sorry for the tardy reply; been on an early.

You are quite correct; P2F is rather unique and likely to remain so.

I believe this can be attributed to the fact that flying is a 'blue collar' function that enjoys the perception of huge kudos. Remember we all seek remuneration for something that many enjoy as a hobby.

P2F exists because there is a strong demand for the service.

Folks want to get the gold bars on and fly aeroplanes, the rest is market forces. The good news is that we can enjoy some cheap airfares on the back of Daddy's boy so it aint all bad news. I am grateful that some stock broker in Chigwell is paying my airfare for me; albeit via his grinning child and MOL or Mr Curd. Everyones happy - why can't you be?:)

[DoleBoy]

BigNumber

Harsh words indeed, and in reply to your question maybe my username will give you a clue as to why I am unhappy.

So I paid the money and gambled like everyone else and yes I have had success and failure, once upon a time I would have been a hot commodity with Jet Time and Commercial Flying, but now the only skills I need are a blue licence, a book on interview techniques (optional) and last but really first a bank account full of money. You may say it has always been this way and market forces drive the P2F, this I have to admit is true, but when pilots were respected for their skill and the responsibility they held then did we see empty aircraft flying to spain and back, when a family holiday meant most people having to save their hard earned to go ABROAD.

No they were full to the brim and Air Travel was special, now we have the me me me and throwaway society and to hell with what they want and must justify the bottom line, fly aircraft on ever tighter margins of cost/safety and all so that we can get to the places we all went before but paid a higher price for.

And yes you are right a lot of people see it as a Hobby made into a job, so what's next St John's Ambulance volunteers paying to remove some guys spleen because they enjoy caring for people, come on you know, I know and every person with one ounce of sense, it is not about the amount of unemployed pilots out there but the Low Cost Model which is the preferred option for quite a few operators.

And of course as costs were slashed by other industries from the early 90's to today. We now get Clothes from india, sri lanka, pakistan, electronics from the far east and food from just about every third world producer you can name, therefore I might suggest that along with many other ex UK industries we won't return to the good old days, rather when the P2F bank accounts dry up, Aviation provided by UK based airlines will cease, and the glut of foreign low cost operators will take the market and will no doubt fleece the poor deluded wannabe for a fortune just to play aeroplanes.

Well either we stand together or we will fall together, yes the ex-pat markets are strong, but given time their own nationals will catch up then the sound of Nigel on the airwaves will be a distant memory and yet again the market will have turned full circle and disappeared up its own backside.

However your right vanity and jingoistic personalities will endure, and when the current economic downturn kills off a few more operators, then the pool we are all swimming in will become smaller, and the sharks will get fatter.

[angelorange]

punk66: Integrity in business: Without trust the business looses customers.

The 7 Principles of Business Integrity | WebProNews (http://www.webpronews.com/the-principles-of-business-integrity-2004-07)

bignumber: P2F Choice: It is also a choice to ignore it, look the other way for short term gains. But long term pain? The results of keeping one's head in the sand is usually fatal.

Colgan Q400 crash highlighted P2F in USA regionals.

[angelorange]

Bealzebub: "Five hundred hours on type has always been something of a minimum bench mark for a type rated pilot...........For cadets, we provide the training and the experience"

Here is the problem (for aviators wanting to develop their careers): the UK LoCo's and associated "approved" schools have created a closed shop for £££££ gain.

Some have even stopped the "TR (£££) into job schemes" because more money can be made from MPL (££££) cadets or selling "TR PLUS Line training" 100 to 500h to P2F "slaves" (£££££).

So an experienced pilot (maybe 4000h of light jet or turboprop time or Military Helicopter pilot) needs 500h on Specific Type for the Airline's "insurance" or HR/Interview entry reasons.

Whilst an MPL cadet with 70h of actual flying time (mostly in a C172 i.e.: less than some PPLs and no need for genuine solo time) needs no real world flying experience (e.g. flying down to minimums in turbulence on a non precision approach with no auto throttles/AP and limited fuel reserves) outside of highly controlled SIM sessions .

Yes SIMS are great for procedural work. And as long as everything goes according to the strictest of SOPs with automation fully functional when on the Line, nobody dies. And 20 years down the line the reliance on automation can be even greater without the variety of flying previous pilots experienced.

So are the Trainers and Line Captains under more pressure? Are SFOs loosing out on developing their skills towards Command when P2Fs are flying and they are on standby?

And as to employees' Ts&Cs being eroded...... !

So P2F: a win win for the LoCos and Schools (who sell more places than Pilot jobs).

And it's down with social mobility, down with hard gained experience, down with piloting skills, down with flight safety (Around 2000 pax deaths in Western Airlines last 10 years due Loss of Control), down with variety of backgrounds and demographics with HR computer tests and in some European countries >35 yrs old ageism.


Wasn't there a tail scrape last year that wrote off a LoCo's fairly new Airbus? Ah but it's OK the Insurance paid out despite the pilot not having had 500h on type!

[kolob666]

How about some realistic expectations. It's a well known fact or at least was when I went into flight school that your first few jobs would be crap pay, and you would have to sacrifice for a few years before you got the pay off of an airline job that would make it all worth while.
Brain surgeons don't get to skip internship because they have some cash laying around, lawyers don't make partner in a firm by throwing cash at the other partners, Christ, even a backhoe operator doesn't pay his boss for a promotion from dirt shoveler to get his position, they are all earned by hard work and dedication.
What kind of person would denigrate his chosen profession by paying to skip steps to get ahead, and ultimately laying the ground work for his future managers to degrade his conditions of service. When I take a management position 15 years from now and I see from your cv that you payed to fly, I will offer you half the salary I'm paying others, and you will take it because if you don't there will 100 behind you that are now willing to pay to fly as captains for free for 6 months or a year just to get a leg up on the competition.

[stuckgear]

People are never going to stop paying for training. Unfortunately it's the done thing nowadays. It's ok people saying 'Stop paying for it and then the airlines will have to', but let's face it - its not going to happen.

I've plenty of friends who did P2F, and are now with major airlines such as EK, living the life, earning http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif loads of cash. I don't see how they're suffering?????


Sorry but that is a specious argument.

1. No one is saying that training should be paid for other then by the candidate.

2. When the candidate is PAYING to fly and has fare paying passengers or freight sitting behind them, they are paying to fly.

There is a marked difference between training and paying to fly the line.

3. When candidates pay for TR's for Line Training, what next, pay for 500 hours; we're there, then what 1,000 hours, then what... then what... ?

4. Your 'friends' who Paid to fly may be working with carriers for sure, but they are suffering in the long run, because they are part and parcel of shutting the gates to career progression. F/O's that require a salary to be replaced by F/O's paying to fly. Economics.. its a no brainier money out over money in. See point 3 above.

5. in the modern era of CRM etc. flying the line is no place to put candidates who are paying for line training / paying to fly the line. The modern cockpit is a TWO pilot environment. The P2F situation puts more demand on the Captain as in effect he is providing training and not operating in two pilot environment.

6. Once the P2F bracket has moved up to 1,000 hours or maybe more, before the opportunity of a full time position is granted how then does the F/O gain the experience to move his career forward to a command position? After all, the preference to dump out employees you have to pay in favour in favour of ones who are paying to be there will not be able to generate the experience to gain command positions and so the carrier itself will find itself in a position of having a problem in obtaining Captains.

you see this and have seen it in the market place over the past couple of years, captains are in demand, and F/O's are not.

The situation is a lose/lose for the carrier and for the candidate as well as lose/lose for industry regions.

[muten]

Stuckgear, what a nice explanation. :D

How about some realistic expectations. It's a well known fact or at least was when I went into flight school that your first few jobs would be crap pay, and you would have to sacrifice for a few years before you got the pay off of an airline job that would make it all worth while.
Brain surgeons don't get to skip internship because they have some cash laying around, lawyers don't make partner in a firm by throwing cash at the other partners, Christ, even a backhoe operator doesn't pay his boss for a promotion from dirt shoveler to get his position, they are all earned by hard work and dedication.
What kind of person would denigrate his chosen profession by paying to skip steps to get ahead, and ultimately laying the ground work for his future managers to degrade his conditions of service. When I take a management position 15 years from now and I see from your cv that you payed to fly, I will offer you half the salary I'm paying others, and you will take it because if you don't there will 100 behind you that are now willing to pay to fly as captains for free for 6 months or a year just to get a leg up on the competition.

Ok, I get your point, and I don't want to sound as if I were an advocate for the P2F, but the problem in aviation is that if you start from the bottom, you get light single engine, light twin... and climbing the ladder medium twin turboprop if you are very lucky... go to the websites of the companies and see by yourself how useful is that. Mostly it doesn't matter if you have 3000TT in light twin, you are in the same pool of experience as the 200TT with 20 in twin.

Your example is how the things should be, but the problem in aviation is, you start doing the ****ty stuff, and that won't guarantee the experience for the next step. I wouldn't mind to begin my career being a bush pilot, but the lowest requirement most companies ask to begin with is the TR on their a/c and 300 hours jet, now tell me where can I get that experience climbing the ladder unless I enter a company with a fleet of lights, turboprop and jet. (The same applies to turboprop, unless you have previous experience, you won't get the right seat by just having 3000TT in light a/c)

EDIT: Look what I found in another thread:8

Finally I got my opportunity flying turbo props. Of course now I have a new complaint, I'm stuck flying turbo props! I have nearly 5000 hours, ATPL, 2500 hours command on part 23 and 25 aircraft, TRE certificate and nobody with shiny jet aircraft will look at me because I dont have enough Jar 25 time, or EFIS time or 1000 hrs plus on medium jet. The list is endless. I have never failed an IR, TR or anything, I have great references but I can't get my foot in the door.

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/475649-no-jobs-yet-type-rating-eaglejet-what-should-i-do-2.html#post7000932

[bureaufly]

Well .... seems you can not step inside anymore even if you pay, i payd my 737 type to join eaglejet lionair program in september, after finished a self sponsored crapy type rating with a TRTO in his list !! they completely forget me, eaglejet left me rated and jobless, lot of loans to pay, worst position you can be, no answer to the phone and even if they call me now !!! price in 40000 $$$$$$!!!!! was 26500 at time of application, of course i have to stick on the new contract!!!
but i do have a smart question .... i saw with my eyes almost other 30 guys in the same position ( and i know there are many many more victims of this ) why i'm the only idiot reporting this ??

[billyx]

I know it's true and I know a lot of people in your situation. No more line trainings with EJ, so don't go buy a Type Rating with their partners because it will be useless.

[LeeluDallas]

If i'm right it's been like 4 or 5 months since you got your TR and applied to EJ. I consider this period of time within limits for they to contact you, as there are loads of people waiting to enter and only few check captains to train newcomers. I'll be soon entering EJ also, as i'll start my TR in 2 weeks, so by the end of the TR probably something else will be known about EJ and Lion Air situation. But do not desperate, wait a little bit more and surely they'll call you!

[PIELORD]

Apparently Eaglejet did have a place for one Pliot on their 737 programme last week. It was short notice requiring the "candidate"? to be in Jakarta, within a few days!

The terms seem to be slipping lower and lower. Its now a 4 year contract. With a $50k USD penalty clause for the pilot, for non completion of the contract. :eek:

The price I believe is $43,700. Plus simulator assesments etc!

Thats the word on the street in Jakarta anyway!:E

[Nearly There]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have been offered an opportunity to place 8 pilots with an airline flying the A320 in Europe for a year. It is estimated you will gain approx 700 hours in that time.

Even though this will be a self sponsored position you will receive flight pay.

Full details will be disclosed to interested parties on submission of their CV to the following email address. JAA only


:eek:
The 8 people need their heads testing.....seriously is this where its at?
3 years down the line from stepping into a flight school waving a cheque book you're £200k+ down!! and nothing of value to show for it.... the little blue book and TR/Job £100k+, no salary for 3 years £90k+ then living costs of 12k per year, in all an investment costing YOU well over 200k!! and nothing to show at the end. Just sit and think what else you could achieve with that sort of money.

[favete linguis]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have been offered an opportunity to place 8 pilots with an airline flying the A320 in Europe for a year. It is estimated you will gain approx 700 hours in that time.

Even though this will be a self sponsored position you will receive flight pay.

Full details will be disclosed to interested parties on submission of their CV to the following email address. JAA only

CURD strikes again.

Its based in Turkey (Atlas Jet) and what he's not telling you is that Atlas are very reluctant to take anyone creating obstacles all along coupled with approximately 4 months wait before starting and then only sporadic flying.

In all, expect to complete 700hrs in 18months to 2 yrs, in which time you pay for food accommodation and everything else.

CURD - a real parasite amongst humanity. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


So desperate for money he has resorted to this now:

Jonathan Curd Testimonial - MR LBX - YouTube

[Robert G Mugabe]

It seems all is not well at a leading Orange outfit. Flexicrew First Officers on their uppers due lack of flying are alleged to be paying to fly. Other First officers on permanent contracts are the recipients of the cash. Cash to change duties.

It now seems even the middle of the feeding chain want a bit of the action. You heard it here first!!!!!

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions".

[Dct_Mopas]

Well robert that wont be happening anymore. Just a few hours after your post we've received an email stating all duty swaps aren't permitted for the foreseeable future due to reported 'selling of duties'. I doubt very much money changed hands and between very few FO's, so a useful way of getting a longer/ shorter/ earlier/ more enjoyable duty has gone :(

[Robert G Mugabe]

So another lifestyle change for the worse for you.

If money did not change hands why would this duty swop process be stopped? Cost and roster flexibility ( crewing cant be bothered ) I suppose.

Flexicrew are 2nd class citizens it appears.