ATPL Skill test and CJ3/CJ4 aircraft

[Flying_hog]

Hi guys!

I am an CJ2 pilot with more than 1500 hrs. I would like to do my ATPL license, but I have read (multiple times...) that it is not possible (:=) to pass an ATPL skill test on aircraft which are single-pilot certified.

Few weeks ago I have heard that some European CAA's allow the skill test for ATPL to be done on CJ3 or CJ4 aircraft...:confused: Can anyone confirm this rumour?

CJ pilots, how do you deal with "obtaining the ATPL" problem?

Thank you for your answers and merry christmas to you all!

[172_driver]

I am afraid I can't really answer your specific question, but... Don't you need at least 500 hrs multi-pilot aeroplane for a JAR-FCL ATPL? And excuse me in advance if that's already taken care of, but since you asked about a SPA aircraft I thought I just highlight the point.

[KyleRB]

Certainly upto and including the CJ3 it is not possible to do an ATPL skills test as they are certified SPAs. This is despite CJ hours being counted towards the 500 hours multi crew. A mate of mine with 3000 hours on CJs couldn't unfreeze his frozen ATPL until doing his LST on a MPA such as Hawker or XL.

[Flying_hog]

It is operated in a multi-crew system (according to EU OPS 1.940), so 500 hrs multi-crew is taken care off...:cool:

[cgurgand]

Flying_Hog, I'm in the same situation : Flying CJ2 and CJ3 under AOC so in a multicrew operation wit a frozen ATPL.
I never heard any CAA that let the ATPL test on a SP aircraft even if it has a MTOW above 5.7t. But the question was, is your flying hours on a multi crew environment are eligible for the 500 hours necessary to pass the ATPL. Those days, some CAA accept any flying hours in a multi crew operation and some only on a multicrew aircraft.
But the new Part FCL from EASA that will come next year is very clear :
FCL.510.A (b) Experience. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall have completed a minimum of 1 500 hours of flight time in aeroplanes, including at least:
(1) 500 hours in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes;
(2) (i) 500 hours as PIC under supervision; or
(ii) 250 hours as PIC; or
(iii) 250 hours, including at least 70 hours as PIC, and the remaining as PIC under supervision;
(3) 200 hours of cross-country flight time of which at least 100 hours shall be as PIC or as PIC under supervision;
(4) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(5) 100 hours of night flight as PIC or co-pilot.

But unfortunately, it is also very clear for the test :

FCL.520.A ATPL(A) — Skill test
Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall pass a skill test in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part to demonstrate the ability to perform, as PIC of a multi-pilot aeroplane under IFR, the relevant procedures and manoeuvres with the competency appropriate to the privileges granted.
The skill test shall be taken in the aeroplane or an adequately qualified FFS representing the same type.

So as soon as you have a multi pilot aeroplane type rating, you can have the test as your hours on the CJ will satisfy the required experience.

Hope this help

[Flying_hog]

Tnx for the answer! I have read the new EU part FCL myself... :sad:
So the only way for a Citation pilot to get an ATPL license is wait for the recession to end and than get a new type rating on an aircraft which will not have a "single pilot certified" curse upon itself... Or any other ideas? :hmm:

[CJ Driver]

FH - yes, that's about it. You can have thousands of hours of multi-pilot jet time in public transport operations, but until you go for a type rating in a "bigger" aircraft than a CJ, you will not get an ATPL.

But note that it is a CJ problem, not a "Citation" problem. A type rating in one of the "multi-pilot" Citation 500 or 550 series would be a simple exercise if you are a current CJ2 pilot, and would immediately unfreeze your ATPL.

[Lowmick]

Actually, 500 hours in multi-pilot operations are "CS25 or equivalent code, or CS–23 Commuter category or equivalent code". So CJs seems to be out...

[First.officer]

Not "out" as far as i'm aware lowmick, whilst the aircraft is a SPA aircraft, when operated on an AOC, it is required to operate as a multi-pilot operation, and therefore the 500 hours can be counted towards unfreezing the ATPL...and know of people who have unfrozen with the C525 hours counting towards the 500 hours total, obviously subject to getting a suitable Type to unfreeze on, and the skill test.

[Lowmick]

Yap, SPA could be required to operate as a multi-pilot. But for example C525/C525A still not correspond to restriction of Part FCL for hours according to CS-25 (because it is lighter) or CS-23 Commuter category (because it is not propeller driven), right?

But anyway, what about Beech 250/300/350 in their configuration for 9-11 pax? Do you know about other single pilot certified aicraft to unfreeze in multi pilot operations under AOC?

[First.officer]

Hi Lowmick,

Agreed, without looking am sure you are correct with regard to the fact it does not meet the definition of a multi-pilot aircraft according to category (C525/C525A), but the Citation 525(A) does meet the requirements for hours counted towards the issue of an ATPL (albeit you cannot unfreeze in a Citation 525(A) as per your previously mentioned statements) as a multi-pilot aircraft when operated in accordance with EU-OPS Subpart N, Ops 1.940 (composition of flight crew), Para. b (IFR & Night ops), and as approved by the relevant authority in which the aircraft is registered and/or operated as part of an AOC operation (UK).

Someone please correct me if i'm wrong, may well be off in my interpretation.

F/O

[Lowmick]

Hi
I absolutely agree, you can operate C525(A) under AOC as multi - pilot. But in my opinion, you cant count these hours to unfreeze your ATPL, because 525(A) are not in CS-23 Commuter or CS-25 category.

I am also not sure about this, and dont want to argue only against. And I would be really happy to log multi pilot hours usable to unfreeze my ATPL on as much small airplane as possible (bceause of that, I am trying to find other types, like mentioned Beechcrafts etc., that could fit commuter cat.) ;) but according to Part FCL, it doesnt seems to be possible to use small CJs....
You can fly them with friend, you can log multipilot hours, but you cant use these hours to unfreeze ATPL because type doesnt fit EASA rules. As I understand...

[Flying_hog]

I can see, that there is quite a debate going on here :D ... I would add that the "new" Part FCL (FCL.510.A (b)) states 500 hrs in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes. It does not specify what kind of aeroplanes... or am I missing something out somewhere? :confused:
Nevertheless I have sent my CAA an e-mail regarding this question... Now I just have to wait and see, what they have to say about this...:)

[Lowmick]

Well, I am not sure if we are looking in same document (but I hope so) :-)

I can see requirement for CS-xx aircraft here, on page 28:
http://www.easa.eu.int/rulemaking/docs/npa/2008/NPA%202008-17b.pdf

Is that correct?

[Flying_hog]

Don't know, I'm confused...:bored:

What about this:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:311:0001:0193:EN:PDF

FCL.510A at page 30 :ooh:

[CJ Driver]

Lowmick is looking at the 2008 draft text, which included a CS-25 or Commuter requirement. Flying Hog is looking at the 2011 published final rule, which does not. Flying Hog is therefore correct - the final rule retains the previous status quo, such that public transport multi-crew operations in a 525 class aircraft counts towards ATP licence issue.

[silverknapper]

Can it be flown single pilot AOC? If yes then the chances are the hours don't count unless you have a multi crew operation in your part B and have the arrangement recognised by your CAA. If not and it must be multi crew by law then I'd guess the hours count.

[Lowmick]

Ah so, thank you and sorry for misinform...

But, in this case, if they dont specify a/c type in multicrew operation (or even operation under AOC), you may fly lets say C421, SR22 etc. under aerial works, where is requirement for two guys in front, and then you can count it for ATPL, right? (when you own MCC of course)