Is it wise for the RAAF to operate C-17's without paper pubs?

[back end o' the bus]

Just wondering in the climate of Air Worthiness, is it wise for the ADF to operate the C-17 without any paper publications, given that the US and UK still do so. It appears a brave move to operate relying soley on a laptop between 3 crew members, especially in the event of a systems failure, when the AC will be flying, the Co will be communicating and the LOADM partially ineffective and unable to access multiple pages of associated drills using the ADTD. What would happen in the event of an electrical failure/laptop failure... given that at least access to an old fashioned paper publication would and could save the whole crew and pax from a possible severe flight hazard....just saying?:ugh:

[Shell Management]

It would be fine if a safety case had been produced.

[LFFC]

It would be fine if a safety case had been produced ... that explains how the risks have been mitigated and it's safe to do so.

I'm sure that such a case will have been approved by the MAA before the system is implemented.

[cessnapete]

I think you will find that more than one laptop will be required per a/c to allow for failure.
Large american airlines are now issuing standard IPads to flight crew as they have been approved by the FAA for flightdeck use (max two operating per flightdeck) EASA will probably catch up in a year or two.
These will replace aircraft tech manuals, and paper airways, and let down charts.
Jepp FD and TC Apps, brilliant!!

[Dr Schlong]

So what chance of the RAF becoming more tech savvy? There must be some big savings to be made by using iPads or else the civvies wouldn't be doing it.
The cost in printing, mailing, sorting and carrying paper docs must be more than the cost of a handful of iPads per frame and a Jeppeson contract... :cool:

[Green Flash]

I beleive that British Apaches are using iPads allready?

[NutLoose]

By the time the RAF hardened an IPad like the one I am using to type this, it would be the size of a large suitcase and probably weigh about 10 stone.

BTW the first manuals for the Chinook were produced with yellow pages, as we worked through tasks and reported back errors they were replaced with white ones until we had an accurate manual.

[piggybank]

Certainly on the helicopters I have worked on, the CDs and PDF form of maintenance manuals are a winner. Paper manuals weigh a lot and get damaged easily. A laptop and a few CDs weight little. Speed of finding the item you want through the search function in PDF is very fast. Its probably also a lot cheaper than the paper versions as well. Updated CDs can come out every few months.

[Alber Ratman]

If you have ever had to replace 2000 individual pages for an AMM revision, PDF is the best thing since sliced bread.. Still print individual tasks out of them out mind as skydrol would kill any laptop, however much it was hardened!:E

[air pig]

Was on a Lear jet about a month ago using electronic flIght bag as a back up, co pilot turns it on and lo and behold, the date came up as 2002 therefore onto the sat phone for the admin password from ops.

Would a C17 crew in some situations have time to obtain the information.

Happy Christmas to everyone and those in dusty hostile places keep safe and come home soon.

[Smurf_au]

While the crews may carry individual memory sticks with the latest DTOS issue, I think you'll find they also take a crate of hardcopy TOs away with them - for exactly the reasons everyone has discussed already. The ADTD is not an EFB.

[George211]

Several years ago I was given a brief on how the RAN had saved several tons weight by making all the documentation on the Collins class submarines electronic. I presume that electronic documentation is a defence wide initiative and must have been successful with the Antipodean Dark Blue to now be available for C-17s.

[Pontius Navigator]

. . . issuing standard IPads to flight crew as they have been approved by the FAA for flightdeck use (max two operating per flightdeck)

Two max or two min?

If the go/no go value be 2 then 3 would appear a prudent number and not a prohbited one.

Just curious.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Havent seen the details of the RAAF e-pubs system but a lot of work is being done in the UK to reduce the volume of paper on a wide variety of platforms. It is the future, we just need to take some guard before diving in headlong. Our plans are based on 3 iPads per jet (one per driver and a spare); the cost is negated within a few short moths by the reduced 'cost-to-carry' of the 40kg or so of pubs.

EFB is a slightly deeper issue but not that far off either. Personally, I haven't looked in the doc box or at a paper en-route chart for a while...and that's just using my humble self-procured iPhone 4...it could (and should) be done brilliantly with a small amount of Service support.

The next step should then be cloud servers with all Unclass pubs, hot poop, FCIF, charts, TAPs etc so users can be in date anywhere in the world where there's connectivity...Or even spend sme money and provide a secure system...

Merry Crimbles.

[Hueymeister]

Am currently trying (with the aid of many others) to sort this for the AT/AAR fleets...watch this space....

[tucumseh]

When electronic pubs were introduced in MoD (mid 90s) the general principle was that legacy aircraft would retain paper. One of the major reasons was MoD would have to supply up to date paper pubs to the company contracted to do the conversion, validation and verification. As AMSO had, as a matter of policy, ceased updating pubs in 1991, MoD would be in automatic default, so rather than pay to update they didn't go electronic.

[Q-RTF-X]

Bottom of the line is it’s inevitable it will emerge in the RAF in some form or other. The process might be somewhat constipated but, ultimately, it will be delivered.

[A and C]

A few years back in an airline I did few sums following the insistance by the cabin crew managment that ALL ! the cabin crew carried a copy of the SEP manual.

The annual cost to the airline of having the extra five books on the aircraft was 18500Kg of fuel (enough to take a 737-800 to Sharm).

You dont have to be very bright to see the economic advantages of having all the books (about 50kg in an airliner) replaced by three iPads, and that is just the fuel savings that can be made, internet updates take seconds rather than employing someone to update paper manuals and get the latest info into the field quickly rather than having to wait for a paper manual set to return to base.

I cant see how any operator be they military of civil would not save money by moving all the manuals to an electronic device like an iPad.

[Hueymeister]

You'd be surprised how small the fuel saving it means for us. The main benefit is the reduction in printing costs, circa £300k p.a.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I know that's the line Wallop are taking. There was an article in Flight recently that, among other things, focused on that.

Instructors are the only personnel allowed to take their iPads into the aircraft for a training sortie, where they can call up data about unfamiliar landing sites, calculate changes to the Squirrel's centre of gravity, or check on the planned activities for a sortie. The device has also been trialled on the ground as a moving map. According to Rickers, perceived equipment shortcomings with the iPad are being disproven by its use. Concerns over battery life are negated by a combined 20h capacity if the same equipment was carried by both members of a two-person crew. Standards and procedures would also be in place in the unlikely event of a double failure. The use of iTunes to load data means all documents must be unclassified, but by potentially using the UK's secure Defence Information Infrastructure this could be overcome.

Should a device be misplaced, lost or stolen, a course co-ordinator can use a 'Find My iPhone' app to locate and call it, or permanently wipe all of its data while retaining the ability to track it. Once recovered, it can be reconfigured within around 5min.

Early feedback from the students has been overwhelmingly positive. "We are struggling now to find things that it can't do," says Rickers. The cost advantage is also clear, he adds: "The iPad costs £400, so from the second year we would be looking at a 100% saving."

linky to the full article IN FOCUS: British Army fights to influence helicopter training choices (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-british-army-fights-to-influence-helicopter-training-choices-363505/)

[SASless]

First it was GPS...a US DOD thingy....then it wuz C-17's....another US DOD thingy...now its Ipads....at least it isn't US DOD created this time!

Maybe it is getting towards the time all this be contracted out....to the USAF and cut out the middle man!

[back end o' the bus]

My original point was not about....cost saving...space saving....etc...etc...its the potential FS accident implication for not having the ability to access all emergency information thru "unavailable" electronic means....as opposed to a cast iron 100 % paper pub that may just save the day and the crew/pax....but the RAAF system is just blind and doesnt see the risk...which is amazing in this risk adverse Air Force...:=:D:ugh:well done all those that can make the difference.....

[glojo]

I understand where 'Stern of the Ship' is coming from but should the RAAF be commended for attempting to come into the 21st century?

If a modern aircraft were to encounter conditions where all electronics were lost then I am guessing the only thing paper would be used for is perhaps that 'last wipe!' :O

All the excellent posts that highlight all the positives regarding the huge benefits of the modern option must surely not be dismissed and instead we should be making sure any issues are sorted ASAP.

[Pontius Navigator]

internet updates take seconds rather than employing someone to update paper manuals and get the latest info into the field quickly rather than having to wait for a paper manual set to return to base.

There is just (as far as I can think) one advantage in a paper amendment. The amender can see what changes have been made.

This advantage disappears when one person does an amendment for many. We used to get airborne with the amendment and a junior crewman would be set to in the galley doing the labour.

[herkman]

I suspect that the RAAF knows exactly what it is doing.

With over 1M hours on C130 and C17 I have every confidence that they are taking no risks, and this usage will also mean that publications are up too date every day.

In all the time since 1958 that RAAF has flown its heavy transports with no major injury and one nose wheel collapse caused by a tired strut and that one we patched up and took her home over 450 miles.

I well remember the first C130K that came down here and found that between the crew positions they had four pieces of paper that covered their operations.

When I presented them with an up too date set of USAF flite and loading manuals they all stood amazed.

Good days them were and I would trust the RAAF with a proper flying safety program.

All the best for 2012

Regards

Col

[Uncle Ginsters]

BEoTB, are the RAAF using solely the ADTD for e-pub referencing or is there a backup such as the GE's laptop?

It's all Pros and Cons: The one in a million chance that no-one on the jet will have a means to access e-pubs (including ADTD, GE's Laptop, crew-owned laptops, iphones, ipads etc) vs. the chance that paper pubs are not up-to-date or have been damaged in use as frequently happen to ours...

I know which i'd choose.:ok:

[APG63]

I'm yet to be convinced by any of this. Great to be able to store all the data/info/drills you need in one small device, but I an very happy with my FRCs, TAPs, maps and DIY take off Vstop calculator. I'll keep my iPad on the ground. But, of course, my world is small cockpits with enough digital technology already and no space. I can hold and work my FRCs with one hand and still fly the jet.

Anyway, too late to decide to download the Emergencies App when an engine quites!

[NutLoose]

I seem to remember reading when the C17 was in development they were working on a wearable headset that the engineer could wear that was supposed to wirelessly linked to a pc etc , so he could pull up screens of data in front of his eyes as he worked, a bit like they are doing on visors now.

Most of my manuals these days are on DVD, which is a Godsend, the laptop or pc automatically updates itself from the web with all the airworthiness AD's, manuals, Service Bulletins etc... the DVD just being a back up.

[The B Word]

What's a paper pub - won't the beer make it go soggy? :}






...I'll get my coat...

[collbar]

Wireless tech orders!!! dont be ridiculous!!!. The USAF C-17 TO's are online via the mil net, so always up to date, any DVD disk being used should be updated via a wireless link available on most USAF pans. This means the wirless capable maintenance tablets aways have up to date info.(disks issued monthly anyway so not that out of date) The wireless headsets you talk of are for intercom conection with the crew onboard.......(so unreliable that newer aircraft dont have it fitted !!). Its great to see that the RAAF have made the leap with new equipment...shame the uk are having there hands tied by uk security rules being aplied. i.e wireless links not allowed and even a laptop for the maintainers seems years away.. ho hum.. happy new year!!

[TruBlu351]

Just on the topic.....the Airbus A380 was produced with a "no paper" cockpit in mind. Whilst good in theory, there's still quite a few teething problems and the catch phrase has now been changed to a "less paper cockpit"!!

The #1 thing in my opinion is that it HAS to be reliable.....and this is really only proven with time....monitoring how the system goes. Then if it does fail, what levels of redundancy you have onboard....ie: more than 1 system which is separate from the other etc.

There are a few different EFB's on the market but in some cases, as already mentioned, an ipad with the plates downloaded from Jeppo in PDF is far more user friendly and takes seconds to setup.

Too often for my liking the particular EFB system in one particular airline doesn't inspire too much confidence.....not to say they are all like this. At times the system either freezes or runs with the speed of a snail or doesn't even boot up at all. The fix for this in the mean time is to carry the paper charts as a backup......can't paint the runway with an air to ground radar and do your own letdown!

As for paper A380 flight manuals....there are none. They are ALL electronic. Takes a little getting used to, but the ammendments are great! Just insert the new CD.

The electronic performance manual is a great feature.....but still not fool proof. It's garbage in garbage out.....just need your SOP checks and balances in place to mitigate any risk....like anything.

The electronic maintenance manual worked....for a few months! Now it's back to the old hard copy....for now.