Tube boob

[vctenderness]

I heard a London Underground tube driver on the radio yesterday actually say: 'we are in the same skills bracket as airline pilots'.

What planet can they be on ?


If a 747 could be attached to rails that stretched across the Atlantic he might have a point!


The only comparison between a tube driver and a pilot is that the tube driver probably earns more than a pilot flying for some airlines. They are on around 50K for a 35 hour week with 40 odd days holiday.


So remember folks as you sit on the tube to T5 the driver is capable of taking you on the next part of your journey as well!

[ZH875]

Not many pilots suffer a"one under"


You should have done better at school .

Oh the shame of it - a tube driver earns more than airborne "tube" drivers

[SpringHeeledJack]

It is a fact of life that certain jobs have wage structures that seem out of kilter, especially when compared with jobs/trades that that require greater training/qualifications/responsibility/time to accomplish. The tube drivers are well protected by their unions, it's either RMT or ASLEF and no freelancers or 'foreigners' to dilute the talent pool, as in the aviation world. I'm sure that there are more young kids wanting to be a pilot than a tube driver, though that might change if it were to involve a diesel locomotive :8 I believe that Eurostar drivers earn comparable to a long-haul captain, so how about that ?

It's true that the tube driver must 'only' obey signals and battle endless boredom, especially in the tunnelled sections and keep to speed limits, whereas the pilots have pre and post flight duties as well as the flight itself to contend with and perhaps continual jet-lag. I suppose that it's like seeing how much NHS nurses earn in comparison with some office jobs, it bears no resemblance and it isn't fair, it's just the way things are :(


Merry Christmas all



SHJ

[vctenderness]

Errrr.....The main point of my post was that the tube driver believed he had 'the same skills' as an airline pilot.

The fact that they are very well paid was an aside.


If anyone on this forum believes that driving a tube train is as skilled as flying a modern jet airliner in all weathers, in crowded air space with lots of other big, fast chunks of metal flying around feel free to contradict me ( Bob Crowe accepted).

[GrahamO]

It's true that the tube driver must 'only' obey signals and battle endless boredom, especially in the tunnelled sections and keep to speed limits,

Not so - on several lines with Automatic train operation systems, the driver merely needs to check there is nobody jammed in the doors, before he simultaneously presses two button to start the train into motion operation. Sure, they do more when it all fails but Victoria Line has always been capable of driverless operation.

There are records of trains leaving without the driver after a misfortune with a taped marble to cover one button (as pressing two buttons was too complex/boring/hard for one individual) and the mechanical failure of the second button resulted in the train moving to the next station on its own without its driver who was not even on the train.

On older signalling system lines they are undoubtedly needed but as has been said, it is in no way a highly skilled job. The only reason they are highly paid is decades of Ken Livingstone awarding them above inflation pay rises and their own ability to bring the city to a standstill.

Pilots could do a train driver job as long s they didn't mind getting bored but there is not a train driver out there who could be a pilot - for starters, pilots have deal with other people in a reasonably polite and intelligent manner.

[Chuchinchow]

If anyone on this forum believes that driving a tube train is as skilled as flying a modern jet airliner in all weathers, in crowded air space with lots of other big, fast chunks of metal flying around feel free to contradict me ( Bob Crowe accepted).

So you will be welcoming comments from Bob Crowe then?

[Hotel Tango]

Very surprised that a tube driver would downgrade his skill level to that of a pilot. :E

[Sygyzy]

Somewhere in the news in the past week or so I'm sure I've seen pilots equated with tube/train drivers and a couple of other-what used to be termed-blue collar industry workers. This may have even been a government survey for CPI/RPI I really can't remember, but the point was made that so far as skill sets go we're lumped in with blue collar nowadays.

Of course after half an hour of searching I can't find it now.

Perhaps we have (in part) only ourselves to blame in the way that we describe what we do, making it all look too easy-"sequential button pushing ol' boy". No wonder the public perceive that "It's all au'oma'ic". (There is no T in modern English). Not like in times past when the crew on an Oz trip were away from mother-both real and the ops dept-for three to four weeks and really on their own. The general public don't see the training, the periodic checks (is there a tube driver's pointy end simulator anywhere?), the medicals, so they merely assume...

Perception is everything.

S

He of the 100 posts-check it out!!

[YorkshireTyke]

Does a Tube Driver sit the equivalent of his final exam. every 6 months ?

In fact - like your G.P. - when are they EVER re-checked once they have started work ?

(How many other 'professions' are checked constantly throughout their working life, as airline pilots are ?)

Just asking.

[Hotel Tango]

then again they probably transport more people in a day than we do.

we should all jack in our jobs and apply to tfl. Same cash, less responsibility.

Rather contradictory that gorter. Just how do you measure responsibility? Whilst in all seriousness it takes a great deal more training to fly an airliner than drive a tube train I would consider that the overall responsibility, not in £££ but in lives, may arguably be similar.

[rethymnon]

would any airline pilot wish to pay his subs to and touch his forelock to bob crow?

[ross_M]

Lots more people want to be pilots than tube drivers. That might explain the relative compensation.

[WHBM]

I'm sure tube drivers are checked regularly, but no they're not of the same skill set. But then again they probably transport more people in a day than we do.
Possibly. But not nearly as many passenger-miles.

I've never quite understood this one about the responsibility being proportional to the number of pax on board. Presumably the crew of freighters (or freight trains come to that) therefore have zero responsibility.

[Hotel Tango]

Presumably the crew of freighters (or freight trains come to that) therefore have zero responsibility.

"Zero responsibility" is rather exaggerated WHBM. The freighter Captain is responsible for his crew, the aircraft and the cargo, not to mention those souls going about their business below him. The cargo he's carrying may be worth millions of dollars, but what price do you put on several hundred lives?

[Piltdown Man]

Here we have an example of what collective bargaining is all about. Your skills are irrelevant, what matters is being in a union and sticking together. You'll probably also find that no wannabe train driver will pay for their training, will pay for their uniform or pass, accept they have to pay to use their company's service etc. They'll near enough be union members to a man/woman. I'm also sure if you asked them whether they agreed with they thought their union was worthwhile, like the BALPA denigrators on this site, many would say they didn't but they'll still vote for and go on strike if asked to do so. Finally, you have to get the most unpleasant, greedy, vicious, unreasonable ugly pub fighter to negotiate on your behalf - someone who is quite prepared to hold an entire nation to ransom.

Skills - who needs them, you just need to learn from the charvers, "Get a big nasty dorg to do ya tawkin' - innit!"

PM

[Piltdown Man]

What do tube drivers earn? Here are the facts. (http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/103142/london_underground/)

Now I'm not going to say that drivers are not skilled however I would contest that managing an aircraft operation is a more complicated affair. But it would be fair to suggest that taxiing an aircraft is approaching a similar level of skills. And as we are talking about skill, yesterday I was receiving a training session in the simulator. We dealt with minor system failures plus major problems like dual engine failures (and everything associated), engine relights, navigation system failures, training for new approach procedures, recurrent training automatic landings plus two hours of briefings/discussion on various procedures, techniques etc. This is one of three simulator training sessions (4 hours each, 2 hours classroom, 30 minutes briefing and 1 hour debrief).


And for what it's worth, I will also be flying today and tomorrow (Christmas Day and Boxing Day). But on Boxing Day it might be difficult for me to get home to see my wife and family because some very highly skilled (and far better paid than many new entrants to civil aviation) personnel, apparently in the "same skill bracket" as my self, are going on strike. Thanks guys!

PM

[scotbill]

And the real truth is that there is no actual need for a driver on a tube train - witness the Dockland Light Railway - or the Gatwick shuttle.

That day may come for the airline pilot - although you will not find me amongst the SLF

Meantime in Scotland we still have a situation on some local trains where the man whose primary job is ticket sales (there being no ticket offices at little stops) rushes off every two minutes to open the doors. Demarcation is alive and well in what used to be Red Clydeside.

[RedhillPhil]

The bottom line is that tube drivers have stronger unions (RMT and ASLEF) and are in a stronger position than aeroplane drivers. If an airline's pilots decide to go walkabout for a day then the passengers will transfer to another airline. When tube drivers go walkabout for a day it's game over for tube travel.
I'm not defending or condoning them, that's the way it works for the greedy overpaid barstewards.

[Dairyground]

Drivers wages on the London Underground and on the national rail network have increased dramatically over the past two or three decades, even as some of the demands of the job have reduced. A modern electric or diesel train is simpler to drive and much less physically demanding than a steam locomotive.

However, other aspects of the job are as demanding as ever, and probably much tougher than similar aspects of flying a passenger aircraft. The aircrew will have a written plan for a flight, identifying the waypoints that are relevant for the conditions on the day, and will have detailed charts of the arrival area. The train driver today may have a written working timetable, showing when to be at various points along his (or her) route, but may not, and in steam days would probably not have been able to keep it legible long enough to be of any use, even if there was light enough to read it. Driving a train from A to B is not just a case of starting off, setting power levels and starting to slown down sufficiently far before reaching the destination so as to be able to stop in the appointed place without atracting opprobium for being late. Landing short is not so much of a problem, but there is no chance of a go around if you come in too fast. And scheduled stops are not the only places where speed management is needed. There are speed limits to be observed, some permanent, some temporary (announced in the railway equivalent of the NOTAM). There are signals to be observed, some a few miles apart, some with only a few hundred yards or less between them. The driver has to know each signal on his route, which side it is on, where it is in relation to others and to other features such as changes in gradient, and in many places has to be able to pick out "his" signal from an array of a dozen or so on an overhead gantry. Several hundred memory items for, say, a trip between London and Manchester, possibly several thousand overall for someone working from a busy shed. One of the major rail accidents of recent years was caused by an inexperienced driver mistaking one signal for another.

The aircraft driver has, of course, some skills that have no equivalent on the railways, but the requirements of the job are not so dissimilar as some imagine.

[GrahamO]

Dairyground - serious question.

Have you ever met a few London Underground drivers ?

You would not describe them in the same terms as a pilot if you did. I have met quite a few from the Jubilee and Northern refurbishment days and I can assure you that they were far less capable than you suggest. Sure, above ground drivers and those on the 'cut and cover' suburban lines have some decisions to make but on the Underground, the signalling systems make 99% of their decisions, along with speed, braking, coasting decisions. Timing of start/stop and dwell times come from the signalling system, not from the drivers memory or training. Even acceleration profiles are programmed in hence my earlier comment of some lines involve pressing a couple of buttons quite literally and the train will move off and stop at the next station.

And London to Manchester (West Coast Main Line) is fully automatic moving block signalling - the drivers had even less to do than on the underground (which is the topic)

Accidents do happen but mostly when outside unpredictable events occur, like a vehicle on the line, but there have not been, to my knowledge, any signalling caused train accidents in the UK - ever.

Human decisions have been the cause of many however and that alone is a better reason to take those pesky humans out of the loop. We used to say that systems were easily managed by a man and a dog and that the dog was there to keep the man way from touching anything.

[PAXboy]

Train drivers have a powerful union from the time when train driving (steam) was a skilled job. The introduction of diesel and electric power, along with electronic signalling, moved the balance of power to the signaller.

Naturally, no one likes to see their job de-skilled, reduced in status or in remuneration. A bit like pilots actually. :p

The problem for pilots is that, whilst they might be very important to the smooth running of the country they do not have the grip of the train drivers union across all the carriers. And BALPA is nowhere near as ruthless as ASLEF.

[Peter47]

Whilst the Central, Jubilee & Victoria lines are automatic the other still have to be driven manually and woe betide a driver that goes past a red signal. You get taken off driving trains if you get too many points on your licence. (In France you would get the sack for a first offence.) In time all lines will be automated and London Undeground have issued a paper suggesting that the train operators could be replaced by a train attendant although existing staff would keep their conditions.

There are plenty of driverless lines and not just in airport terminals, for example Paris Metro line 14.

There is actually quite a lot to learn to be a tube driver - although less than a pilot!

There are several reasons why drivers pay has risen:

- The situation is parallel to pilots prior to airline degregulation where pilots were able to negotiate them way above market rates claiming productivity improvements etc.

- Franchises were awarded on the basis that operators would take revenue risk. Revenue has risen faster than expected hence operators have done rather well. Unions have been able to take their cut. There is what that Governor of the Bank of England would describe as "moral hazard" that is if revenue was less than forecast you lost your franchise and lost a bond but that is all (Northern Spirit, National Expres East Coast etc) if you made more you kept it. ("Cap & Collar" later changed this but lets not go into too much detail.)

- Drivers can easily move between employers. There is no seniority, unlike steam days (no parallel with airlines here). In the early days of privatisation there was a shortage of drivers and as operators were fined for not running trains it was cheaper to poach staff from other operators. The long distance & London operators could afford to pay more (cheaper than a strike). The regional operators which are akin to commuter airlines had to match them. Subsidy levels increased.

- The Government assumed that market forces will force costs to reduce. However the rail market is not a free market. ASLE&F was defeated in 1982 but that was against a single employer backed by the Government.

Will things change? Well the RMT could overplay their hand as BASSA did. If there is a downturn and operators start losing money the Government would have to step in and the balance of power would change. If there were to be a contingency fleet of buses in and a Government willing to put limitations on single occupancy of cars London could probably do without railways for a few weeks which would concentrate minds. I think that it would require a major change in the structure of the industry for much to happen.

Also bear in mind that drivers salaries vary by country and and are lower in most although some do very well such as the French. Looking at the ATC forum some controllers, such as the Spanish to very well, others not as well. Its the same with train drivers.

[kentdav1973]

Hi everyone.

I came across this thread so decided to sign up to give my 2p.

I'm a qualified train driver. Not a tube driver which to us is something entirely different. As pointed out 3 tube lines are automatic. But even on the ones that aren't speeds are relatively low and every signal has a trip cock arm so you will be stopped if you pass a red signal. Each year if you do this is reset.

National Rail. One key difference between the entry exams for pilots and national rail drivers is : you may only fail the entry assessments ONCE. Fail twice and it's game over FOR YOUR ENTIRE LIFETIME. I'm assuming I could of I had the funding take my private pilots licence test as many times as necessary

Someone said something about moving block signalling on the London to Manchester line. WRONG. Whilst some lines have automatic train protection, the train is still being driven manually. The West Coast Main Line has TASS but its designed to stop overspeeding on bends which the train tilts around. All trains are manually driven - the only automation is cruise control - and only some trains have that.

Drivers must pass a route exam on paper and a practical before being allowed to drive a route. This also takes place in the dark so route knowledge is extremely important. We are also subject to regular downloads from our version of the black box and an exam every year for the first two years. If you don't drive for 6 months you lose competence and must refresh routes / rules.

Of course this is nowhere as complex as a plane - and i'd love to be a pilot, but there are two of you fully able to fly the plane. On the trains there is only one driver. You do sometimes have a guard or conductor but they can't drive and have limited mechanical knowledge of the train and route in the event of a breakdown.

Eurostar drivers must speak French, must know Belgium french and English signalling systems as well as the TVM in cab signalling, regulations for the channel tunnel etc etc.

So as skilled as a pilot ? Of course not. But we all drive manually.

[PAXboy]

Hi kentdav1973 and welcome aboard! That was a very helpful and practical post. I hope you continue to visit our high class cabin. ;)