BA Flight LHR - GLA Returned due to both pilots becoming lightheaded and dizzy

[batboy1970]

I was on the LHR to GLA flight yesterday BA1486 an A321 (20th Dec), departed LHR at 4 pm ish got airborne, at approx 20 mins into flight a very abrupt and panicked message came over the PA from the pilot " senior flight attendant to the flightdeck", at this point there were defined worried faces across all off attendants, next thing was an o2 cylinder and mask taken forward and we were heading back to LHR at great speed. No announcement for a long time then the expected technical problem line was posted to all. We landed no problem but were met by a full fire service turn out, including local authority fire service and engineers etc etc.
Still being fed the tech fault line but the first on board were paramedics.?? It later transpires that both pilots became lightheaded/dizzy/unwell at the same time, in my book thats serious ....right, anybody care to shed any light on this one

[Checkboard]

A problem which releases fumes into the cabin IS a tech fault - no lie there.

The fire service turnout is standard for any urgent return - they spend all day at the airport, and the practise is good training under real conditions.

The O2 cylinder and mask is also a standard first aid response, and the cabin crew training would have prompted it - although it probably wasn't used as the pilot masks can provide fume protection and 100% O2, which a cylinder cannot.

As the flight concluded safely, then it shows the pilots acted in good time to make a safe return before either of them were affected to an extent which would have jeopardised the aircraft - that sounds like a good result to me.

[reverserunlocked]

Will be interesting to see what the AAIB make of it, if a report is made. If both felt nauseous it would perhaps point to a fumes/bleed air issue, a la BAe 146, perhaps?

[batboy1970]

Well that's good news but it was tech enough to not keep going to Glasgow and to have us met by the entire crew of Londond Burning, then treat the Tech problem with Paramedics, 1 pilot going tech is pants but 2 at the same time simply makes my bum hole pucker. Would be nice to get feedback of some sort. I fly all over the world so its inevitable I will encounter some pipes and drums but facts are always reassuring (I hope)

[Groundloop]

Batboy, please elaborate on "very abrupt and panicked message" - especially your definition of "panicked".

"senior flight attendant to the flightdeck" seems a fairly normal message to me.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Perhaps to flyers it seems normal, especially in the sim! But for SLF who may only hear that phrase once in their lives, it could well seem abrupt.

[batboy1970]

Groundloop, it was just that, a panocked and urgent message, there was no courtesy with it it was a definite message of concern, she wasn't after a cup of tea, she didn't use the internal comms system she went straight on to PA and passed the message that was not a standard request for all to hear. She has a problem at the sharp end, this became apparent as written above.

Please let me clarify, this is not a dig at the pilot, she was brilliant and did a wonderful job, one she got her sh*t together she did everything you could ask for

[Juan Tugoh]

The standard BA Alert Call, i.e. the call the pilots make to alert the crew that there is an issue that may modify onboard service and require (possibly) some cabin crew action is "Will the Senior Cabin Crew Member report to the Flight Deck immediately." This is not a panicked call but a well practised one made in the sim numerous times by all pilots. The immediate response from CC is for the SCCM and nearest other crew member to go into the FD, often they will take a portable O2 with them in case it is an incapacitation issue. Seems like everyone did as they were trained to do and no great drama unfolded.. A potentially difficult situation well dealt with by all crew :D

[Topspotter]

Forgive me for venturing into a pros forum, and if this is a silly question im sorry, but why would the flight crew request the cabin crew to bring a oxygen cylinder to them when they have a supply themselves on the flight deck?

[captplaystation]

Was answered on post #12, + , it is easier to attach a mask standing in the entry of the cockpit using a handheld bottle, than faffing around with a "quick donning" :rolleyes: mask stowed in most aircraft on the outboard of the pilot, often a bit buried, which will then require you to check whether it is on EMERG/100% or whatever.

[Topspotter]

Thank you, i should have paid more attention to the thread.

[lmalyon]

From my medical background sounds like one of the crew may have become unwell, supplying O2 is the first line of response in a first aid situation, the re breath bag with the o2 cylinder is more beneficial to the 'patient' then the drop down o2 masks in the deck as these require the person to be spontaneously breathing

If the aircraft is back in service today seems like can't be much wrong with it and with the paras first on board it seems to back up my theory

[stepwilk]

If I'd heard that PA message as a passenger, I'd have been curious but not a bit alarmed. If the flight had thereafter continued routinely, I'd probably have forgotten all about it by the time we landed. But a nervous passenger can link the routine call to a turnback and suddenly it becomes "a panicked PA call." The exaggeration is unfortunate but understandable, in the circumstances.

I do wonder, though, how on earth he knew they were "heading back to LHR at great speed." Carrying his own pitot/static system?

[Capetonian]

a very abrupt and panicked message came over the PA from the pilot " senior flight attendant to the flightdeck",

I may be wrong but surely the flight deck can communicate with the SFA by intercom without broadcasting it to the entire aircraft? (Unless all the FAs are occupied eslewhere)

[scotbill]

Use of the PA alerts all the cabin crew to a potential problem - and the senior member may well be out with the trolley

[JW411]

Have I missed something here?

Batboy 1970 states with some confidence that:

"It later transpires that both pilots became lightheaded/dizzy/unwell".

Who told you that? Someone from BA?

[batboy1970]

Step wilk, I knew we were returning because the vdu screens were down, so the turn around was easy as we started drawing circles on the screen, the speed is also displayed on this screen and the numbers went up considerably so I didn't need any telemetery just basic maths did the trick, plus it took us 20 mins to get where we were and approx 15 to return .....

JW it was a member of the crew who confirmed this

[FLCH]

Who cares if it was a "panicked" call from the pointy end. The correct choices were made and it all worked out.

I'll admit my voice has raised a couple of octaves initially during the few emergencies I've had, but the facts were that I knew what the hell I was doing and the decisions made were based on the safest and the most conservative choices made at the time with all the available information.

It was a non-event if you look at the whole picture, anything else is fodder for the tabloids.

[brit bus driver]

Aaaggghhhhh - the internet is great, until it's used for this sort of melodramatic hype, which is then reported in 'the press' as fact. The only facts that the OP knows is that the alert call was made - and I'd bet a month's wages that it did not use the words he quotes, thereby calling into question his recollection of even the basic facts - and that the aircraft returned to LHR. The rest is supposition and hypothesis. Return flt was quicker - about 65 kts out of the north at the moment, so might that explain it?

Tell your mates, but please don't spread ill-informed rumour and speculation, there's a good chap.

:ugh:

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Is it me, or was the OP only looking to try to look for reasons why his flight returned? He isn't owed an explanation, but if he has half a brain he will check AAIB bulletins over the coming months, if the event merits one.

Condescending responses like "There's a good chap" only reinforce those who aspire to, or aim to be, "old school".

Bet you wouldn't diss him if he brought a missing cowling or wing panel to your attention though.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

bbd, "this is the captain/FO would the senior cabin crew member report to the flight deck immediately"

Close enough for me, I'll take a cheque:E

[piton]

Similar to Juan's reply - our (JAA operator) standard call in an urgent situation such as this is "Purser report to cockpit" and has to be done on the PA in case cabin crew are busy in the cabin pressing the normal 2 chime bells means they first finish what they are doing (serving meals/selling sandwiches) and only then come up & call you back - wasting precious time in an urgent situation.

What urgency call does your company have brit bus driver?

[brit bus driver]

My point is that if the OP cannot quote the alert call correctly - and I am certain that BA doesn't use 'flight attendant' - what credence can be given to the rest of his insights. As I said, this forum is frequently pillaged by the press so why feed the trolls with ill-informed speculation about incapacitated pilots?

Sorry Lord Spandex, we don't use the phrase 'this is the captain (or FO)' in those circumstances, so the cheque will be used to pay the builders instead.

Piton, your question has been answered in this thread.

[cyan]

The comment about the rebreathing bag on portable O2 cylinder is utter rubbish by the way. The bag is there to accommodate the peak inspiratory flow rate during spontaneous respiration. If a patient is not spontaneously breathing then resuscitation is required. Fortunately cabin crew are well trained and know this. :ugh:

[Bond'll Do]

The guys probably saw what the crew meal was....then developed those symptoms??:yuk::bored::eek:

[fergineer]

Coded message given, crew reacted well, aircraft landed safely. Wait until the report comes out. Perfectly executed plan end of.

[NigelOnDraft]

Wait until the report comes outBy report I assume you mean AAIB? If every airborne return resulted in the AAIB report, then they would be a somewhat larger outfit than they are ;)

The company / CAA / AAIB reporting system (e.g. MOR) is well defined - whether the AAIB was even required to be informed I would guess is unlikely, the chance of a report from them somewhat less. IMHO ;)

NoD

[batboy1970]

Folks many many thanks for the genuinely helpful posts its appreciated and re emphasises what this forum is about. With regards to the pretencious and somewhat rude and totally unhelpful comments thanks to you too, it made me chuckle/cringe somewhat, but hell a good read anyway

[oggers]

stepwilk

I do wonder, though, how on earth he knew they were "heading back to LHR at great speed." Carrying his own pitot/static system?

Wouldn't be caught dead on a flight without mine.

---

Batboy

Still being fed the tech fault line but the first on board were paramedics.??


Batboy: I think very many of the public would recognise the precautionary actions for what they are. All that airport security for instance, doesn't mean there's a bomb on your plane. Not sure where you're coming from with this skepticism over the technical fault. If there were fumes in the cockpit that's a technical fault, shurly.

[lakerman]

Imalyon, forgive me, but I have never heard of drop down masks on the flight deck. You want 100% pure O2 on the flight deck if necessary, not the rubbish that comes out of the drop down masks in the cabin. That's why the flight deck is equipped with smoke mask, goggles etc so they can operate better under major problems.

[razzele]

dizzy/nauseous.....wtf??
The guys probably saw what the crew meal was....then developed those symptoms??

:E

or this was an enlightened method of getting the christmas leave that was cancelled!

:=

[BOAC]

Was the window shut..............?

[Craggenmore]

Was the window shut..............?

Should have been.

"Windows/Doors................Closed/Locked" is on all of the Airbus cx-lists I've ever used :uhoh:

(unless it failed airbourne)

[batboy1970]

Fargoo, thanks very much for the update. So as I first thought, not the open and shut case that everybody who wasn't there predicted. Many Thanks

[EternalNY1]

For all of you dismissing the OP on this one ... shame on you.

More info here:

Incident: British Airways A321 near London on Dec 20th 2011, both flight crew nearly passed out (http://avherald.com/h?article=44821010&opt=0)

[Bobbsy]

A question for batboy1970 from another SLF...

That Aviation Herald article reports that the passenger oxygen automatically deployed. Did that actually happen? If so, my uneducated guess would be that it's a pretty significant detail.

[Mr Optimistic]

The OP would have mentioned that ! Very doubtful on the masks deploying.

[batboy1970]

Oh well, there ya go. I set out to ask a genuine question about something I was involved in and now have thge answer, I'm not a big PPRUNE user and its little wonder. The question that springs to mind now is, when the CAA and involved crew actually make statements as per the link, is it a general rule that you will now attempt to belittle them and question there integrity, with statements like stick to the facts "there's a good chap".....

So in a nutshell sometimes YOU don't have a clue who are posting these comments and what knowledge and expierience they have, however as an OP we clearly have a good idea of one or two who are responding.

Poor show to some of you, I hope you read the quotations and firmly felt like the fools you now look.

Again to the positive responders thank you very much indeed, your probably enjoying a good quality of air with your heads NOT being up your own ar*es

[BOAC]

Do BA do packs or bleeds off/On apu take-offs?

[Nevermind]

No, unless we have to - not very often.

[kazzie]

Look's as either this story has been sold to STV, Or STV reads pprune...

Flight turned back after pilots began feeling 'lightheaded' | Scotland | STV News (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/290356-flight-turned-back-after-pilots-began-feeling-lightheaded/)

Quoted, Word to word:

"at this point there were defined worried faces across all off attendants, next thing was an o2 cylinder and mask taken forward and we were heading back to LHR at great speed"

[stepwilk]

Interesting that the "aviation experts" surmise that perhaps it was caused by a drop in cockpit pressurization, as though it's a separate capsule. A locked door can't seal it -that- well, can it?

[kinteafrokunta]

batboy1970...I fully sympathise with you. You picked on some unpalatable news about BA or any such airlines and you will get the cabal of pilots and aviation professional coming hard at you to belittle you so much so that you will want to drop out of pprune. Pick up on little incidents about any Asian, African or third world airlines and you have all of them coming out in droves to trash all the non-Western pilots wholesale as incompetent and wholly responsible for all sorts of imagined misadventure they can conjure.

Do not lose heart, there will be the odd PPruner who will give you the right answers or at the very least a balanced opinion.

[IcePack]

I have had several similar instances all be it from cabin crew when the the flow control was selected to "low Flow" when carrying a reduced number of pax. Always solved by selection of normal flow.
Just a thought in these fuel conscious days.:hmm:

[stepwilk]

you will get the cabal of pilots and aviation professional coming hard at you

Is there any possibility, perhaps, just a wee bit, that it's because the name of this forum used to be Professional Pilots Rumour Network? Now PPRuNe stands for Passengers, Promoters and Rubes Network.

[batboy1970]

Bobbsy, NO, masks did not drop, what happened was some time after the initial PA one of the attendants, took an oxygen cylinder complete with mask to the flight deck, it was after landing that another attendant confirmed that they (the pilots) had been on oxygen.

[lomapaseo]

Sounds like we (PPrune) are still debating the facts vs rumors and at the same time the veracity of the messenger.

I think that is par for the course as long as we don't get personal.

at this point I have no idea what the true facts are, other than it landed safely and we (Pprune) will never really know for sure.

keep those rumours coming it's as interesting as reading a tabloid

[Alexander de Meerkat]

I am an Airbus Training Captain with another airline, but listening to this would tell me this was a potentially very serious incident and the pilots were indeed right to make great haste back to Heathrow. A loss of consciousness or capability to both pilots is potentially catastrophic - similar to Helios in Athens some years ago. It is a million to one long shot that both pilot should be disabled - quite rightly the Captain would not be hanging about in his efforts to get on the ground. That does not strike me as panic - just pure common sense.

[bubbers44]

An immediate mayday and return to land is my first thought if things are happening in the aircraft that are out of your control like fumes throughout the cabin and cockpit which happened on one of my flights. Get on the ground and get your passengers off. Let the Chiefs second guess you as much as they want. They weren't there. You were. Remember Swissair 111? They crashed following company procedure.

[BOAC]

At least we can get on with stuffing the bird knowing that "The Air Accident Investigation Branch has opened an investigation." according to STV news, so we will know soon enough.

[Superpilot]

Other recent crew incapacitations (or nearly) – What’s going on?

Accident: TUIFly B737 at London and enroute on Oct 20th 2011, captain and two cabin crew unwell (http://avherald.com/h?article=44822517&opt=0)
Incident: Lufthansa A320 near Dusseldorf on Oct 7th 2011, first officer incapacitated (http://avherald.com/h?article=44822b37&opt=0)

[MarkR1981]

Oh well, there ya go. I set out to ask a genuine question about something I was involved in and now have thge answer, I'm not a big PPRUNE user and its little wonder. The question that springs to mind now is, when the CAA and involved crew actually make statements as per the link, is it a general rule that you will now attempt to belittle them and question there integrity, with statements like stick to the facts "there's a good chap".....

So in a nutshell sometimes YOU don't have a clue who are posting these comments and what knowledge and expierience they have, however as an OP we clearly have a good idea of one or two who are responding.

Poor show to some of you, I hope you read the quotations and firmly felt like the fools you now look.

Again to the positive responders thank you very much indeed, your probably enjoying a good quality of air with your heads NOT being up your own ar*es

Quite right !! nice to see some self obsessed (insert word for self stimulation:E) being reminded that they are not in fact superhuman.

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!!

[Farrell]

Do not lose heart, there will be the odd PPruner who will give you the right answers or at the very least a balanced opinion.

Not if he goes about sensationalising what actually happened on board!

[Miken100]

One curiosity for me that hasn't been discussed is that 20 mins into the flight would mean they were well enroute (assuming the OP meant 20mins from t/o) and with the compromise to safety being speculated why they didn't go to East Midlands or Manchester - would that not have been a quicker way to get on the ground than returning to LHR? This suggests to me that whilst the crew were concerned it wasn't a critical/'Mayday' incident....

[batboy1970]

Miken, when we landed the pilot over the PA said that R/T LHRwas actually the best thing to do 'in this situation'.
One of the reasons given was that it guaranteed the passengers could get onto our final destination.

[sharksandwich]

"The comment about the rebreathing bag on portable O2 cylinder is utter rubbish by the way. The bag is there to accommodate the peak inspiratory flow rate during spontaneous respiration. If a patient is not spontaneously breathing then resuscitation is required. Fortunately cabin crew are well trained and know this. :ugh: "
Just to clear up confusion:a rebreath bag is used when there is not spontaneous respiration.The bag is squeezed to inflate the lungs when the patient is not able to do so himself, 2 times to 30 chest compressions if there is also cardiac arrest due to inhalation shock.Portable cylinder required,because the patient would need to out of their seat for the chest compressions to be effective.That would be why the purser brought it.

[ETOPS]

That would be why the purser brought it.

Except they didn't :ugh:

Not certain you understand BA standard equipment or on-board SEP.

[sharksandwich]

Just going on the info in post 50.Thought it was worth not misinforming about emergency equipment, that is all.No offence intended.

[givemewings]

Think you're getting confused between the rebreather bag attached to an O2 mask (i.e. on the drop downs- some have/some do not) also on some portable bottle masks and an Ambu-Bag... semi-rigid large "zeppelin" shaped bag used as described above by medical professionals during resuscitation. (attaches to the artificial airway inserted)

Not sure about BA but most airlines have this onboard for medical professional, not cabin crew, use.

FYI for those who were asking the "SCCM/purser to the flight deck" call not only summs that person but lets the other crew know to get to a station to answer a cabin call giving more information. I.e, stop the service something important is happening. Usually this would also tell us to secure the carts/galleys in readiness for a return (but not always)

[sharksandwich]

Yeah, you're right, I was thinking of an ambu bag.Wonder why cabin crew don't have them - unqualified staff are trained to use them in the NHS and othe large organisations as part of Basic Life Support. You don't get paramedics blue-lighting their way to an airliner whilst in flight.

[givemewings]

As far as I'm aware, it's because they're used with an artificial airway, which cabin crew are not trained to insert. Perhaps the staff at NHS ARE trained in how to do that.

I know we can attach an O2 bottle to one to supplement, but unless I'm mistaken we do not use the Ambu-bag- at least in my outfit. It might be different in others. I was told that the chances of us messing up an airway far outweigh any disadvantage the person might have from not having one... i.e... if a professional is there, it gets used... if not, well, better not to make things worse!

Gonna go have a check of my manual again, just in case... ;)

[Skittles]

As far as I'm aware, it's because they're used with an artificial airway, which cabin crew are not trained to insert. Perhaps the staff at NHS ARE trained in how to do that.

I know we can attach an O2 bottle to one to supplement, but unless I'm mistaken we do not use the Ambu-bag- at least in my outfit. It might be different in others. I was told that the chances of us messing up an airway far outweigh any disadvantage the person might have from not having one... i.e... if a professional is there, it gets used... if not, well, better not to make things worse!

Gonna go have a check of my manual again, just in case

There's no need for artificial airway when using ambu-bags. It's just a better substitute for the standard masks you may be familiar with using. It allows you to administer near enough 100% oxygen upon ventilation (assuming it's attached to high-flow O2) whereas other methods such as direct mouth to mouth are considerably less efficient. You can use the bag connected to an artificial airway instead of the bag, but you don't need to.

I am not an employee of BA or any other airline - I am NHS - but I would suggest that the reason they're not used it that they can be bloody hard to use. You need at least two people - the seal needs to be maintained around the mouth and nose whilst the compressions are given. That in itself is hard enough. If you're not experienced you'll struggle to get a good seal. Most people need two hands to do this, and as such can't squeeze the bag. Thus, you need another person. This potentially interrupts the compression delivery - which by modern protocol and standards is the 'more important' aspect of CPR.

Another problem is that when people do get a good seal they often squeeze the bag hard - overinflating the lungs, and negating a lot of the benefit of doing it in the first place.

Ultimately with a standard rebreath mask you ensure a good airway and make sure the mask is properly attached etc, wheras the ambu-bag takes an awful lot more knowledge and ability to use effectively.

This is absolutely no criticism of the level of training or ability of airline staff. For (hopefully) such a rare occurrence however, I'd say it's unreasonable to expect them to use something like an ambu-bag.

[givemewings]

thanks for explaining how it works. So basically, the effort needed isn't very practical in the scenarios that cabin crew are likely to face. As you say, crew most often use 2 operator CPR and given that usually takes place in a galley there is hardly the room for it, and if there is space for an extra then the medical professional if available would be assisting with that I am sure.

Anyway, sorry for the thread drift!

[Basil]

We required a flow test long enough to exhaust O2 in the line from the FD shutoff valve in case it was closed and also with mic on to check it was working.
Recollect :rolleyes: FE in GF who used to complain about the noise.

[PPRuNeUser0171]

An investigation has been launched after a British Airways flight from London to Glasgow had to turn back because the two pilots were taken ill.

The Airbus A320 had taken off from Heathrow on 20 December when a request was made for an emergency landing after the flight crew requested oxygen.

A BA spokeswoman said the aircraft landed completely safely.

The Civil Aviation Authority was notified and the Air Accidents Investigation Branch probe started.

British Airways said oxygen masks were deployed on the flight deck as a precaution.

Once the plane had landed in London, passengers disembarked and were flown to Glasgow on a replacement service with a new flight crew after a short wait, the company said.

The spokeswoman said passenger safety was paramount.


No comment on any passenger being taken ill so it suggess this was something on the flight deck.

Source: BBC News - Investigation launched after BA pilots taken ill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16463742)

[GWidgery]

A slightly more exaggerated version of the story!

BA passenger jet makes emergency landing after both pilots 'pass out' at the controls | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083895/BA-passenger-jet-makes-emergency-landing-pilots-pass-controls.html)

[dns]

Here's my interpretation (I am BA cabin crew).

As everyone has said, the alert call made was bog-standard for any non-normal situation (be it tech fault, pilot incap, diversion for any reason). Never known a BA captain to panic myself... PA would have been made through the built in mic on the EROS mask so would have sounded a little different to normal.

As for the crew taking the oxygen bottle to the flight deck, well that's not a formal procedure, but likely just a precaution taken. Afterall, they're stowed above the crew seats right outside the flight deck door, I'd probably grab one myself in that situation. Quite possibly the crew member was feeling a bit light-headed themselves and put 2 and 2 together. Might sound a bit pointless when there are the EROS masks on the f/d, but in the case of pilot incap, we're trained to use the portable bottles (it makes it easier to move them if necessary and it allows us to see if they've vomited etc)

All in all, it sounds like a minor decompression/fume event. From all accounts handled correctly by the crew. :ok:

[Leeus]

An interesting link here that has the flight in a sort of playback visualisation!

BA Crew almost pass out at controls- planefinder.net (http://planefinder.net/about/ba-crew-almost-pass-out-at-controls/)

[Bartlett1]

I'm a doctor (surgeon), not a pilot but a reasonably regular passenger. I agree with Skittles' post with regard to the description of the ambu-bag and why it would not be advisable to use it without training. However, I must take issue with the constant reference to rebreathe bags. In most cases, bags attached to masks have nothing to do with rebreathing. They are reservoir bags. When you take a breath in the peak flow rate is around 40-60 l/min, significantly higher than the maximum 15 l/min flow of oxygen supplied by most systems in hospital (not sure what's available on aircraft). Therefore air is entrained from the surroundings thus diluting the inhaled oxygen concentration. A mask without a reservoir bag will deliver a maximum of around 50% oxygen with a flow rate of 15 l/min. The purpose of the reservoir bag is to fill with oxygen in between breaths. During peak inspiration, oxygen will come straight from the supply as well as from the reservoir bag, increasing the inspired oxygen concentration to around 80% max. The only way to deliver 100% oxygen is with a closed anaesthetic circuit.

[virginblue]

The story has now even made it into Germany's largest tabloid:

Passagiere hören Panik-Rufe der Pilotin: Schwindelanfall im Cockpit (http://www.bild.de/news/ausland/notlandung/pilot-schwindelanfall-im-cockpit-21972468.bild.html)

The German version is even more sensationalist:

"Passengers hear pilot shouting in panic"
"Shock for passengers..."
"Pilot desperately calling flights attendants for help"
"Desperate scenes in the cockpit"
"Apparently the aircraft only narrowly escaped a catastrophe"

In my next life I will become a journo as I am reading aviation forums all day anyway...

[DavidWoodward]

I don't usually post but I thought you might be interested in the article that my mother found. Unfortunately, she reads the Daily Express which always provides me with a good chuckle when I read the sh*t they write in there.
Anyway, here's the article.

Panic on a BA jet as pilots faint

A BRITISH Airways jet was forced to make an emergency landing after the pilots almost passed out at the controls.
The captain and First Officer reported feeling light-headed as the jet climbed to 20,000ft on its way to Glasgow.
Passengers heard a "panicked" captain call for cabin crew. They gave the pilots oxygen as they requested an emergency return to Heathrow.
The Airbus 321 landed safely but both men told paramedics they had felt as if they were about to pass out.
The incident is being investigated by the Air Accident Investigation Branch.
It was reported by a passenger on a pilots' website.
He said "There were worried faces across tall of the attendants and the next thing an oxygen cylinder and mask were taken forward and we were heading back to Heathrow.
"We landed no problem but were met by a full fire service turn-out. The first on board were paramedics."
Confirming the incident, BA said: "Our pilots are highly trained to deal with such circumstances."

[golfyankeesierra]

"Our pilots are highly trained to deal with such circumstances."
No thank you.
I would prefer it were the Flight Attendants doing the Artificial respiration part.

[Beeline]

Dns

A decompression or fume event is not a simple event and if you work for BA you should be careful not to add fuel to this misinformed media fire!

I am well informed enough to say that there was or nothing technically attributed to the aircraft.

I am also well informed enough that any contaminated air or lack of pressurisation affects the whole aircraft and not just the flight deck

The investigation on the aircraft side was completed within 12hrs. With flight data showing no abnormalities.

Pilots are trained to err on the side of caution with any event. I commend the flight crew in the actions they took.

:ok:

[4Greens]

The daily Telegraph almost quotes pprune by saying 'was also reported by a passenger on a website for professional pilots'.

[TiiberiusKirk]

Just to clarify - I hope - the different types of oxygen masks that exist - at least in a First Aid/Medical situation {that is excluding such as Scuba equipment, fireman Breathing Apparatus, and such as maybe seen on a flight deck}

Normal air (at seal level) contains 20-21 percent oxygen.

There are basically two types of equipment, for patients who are breathing and those not breathing.

For those breathing, there are generally speaking 3 types:
1) The Nasal Canular (not really a mask, but a tube with two short outlets that insert into the nostrils). Depending on the flow rate (generally 1 to 4 litres a minute) this delivers the patient an oxygen percentage of between 22 and 44 percent.

2) The Face Mask. This fits over the nose and mouth, usually secured by elastic. This mask usually has perforations to the outside air, and again depending on the flow rate selected, delivers between 25 and 45 percent oxygen.

3) The Non Rebreathing mask, Similar to the Face Mask, except that there are one-way valves to the outside air. These generally will have a reservoir - a thin plastic bag - fed with pure oxygen. This mask can deliver upto around 90% oxy.

The big one is the BVM (Bag Valve Mask). For non-breathing (thus unconcious) patients. This mask has a (if used properly) good seal over nose and mouth. Then there is a tough bag that is squeezed by hand to force oxygen into the lungs. Attached to that is usually a reservoir bag too. In this scenario, oxygen flow would be set to max (usually 15 litres/minute)

If you're using a BVM, you're also in a full CPR situation and giving chest compressions too - the recipient isnt flying anything...

The OP and others havn't given a detailed desription of the oxy kit used, but as the pilots continued flying, it COULD NOT have been BVM. As a +bag+ was mentioned, probably a non-rebreathing mask.

STRNGE: It's been mentioned that the first on-board on landing were ambulace/paramedics. Were any noxious fumes/gasses suspeceted, first on would hve been Firemen in Brething Apparatus, with their test equipment.

So, whatever happened, its cler that ground teams had depreciated the seriousness of the issue before landing.

[MrLeveloff]

Tiberius, A320 masks are not a secret, see here

Also, AFAIK, the % by volume of O2 stays the same up to about 75km.

[MrKeetz]

CNN is now covering it on their website, with a direct link and reference to this forum.

[ponshus]

Nothing has been found wrong with the aeroplane - could this account for it? Mass hysteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria)

[bubbers44]

We picked up a 737 one afternoon at Burbank, Ca. We flew all the rest of the day and ended up getting the same plane the next morning in San Jose. We did our standard full preflight and when we tested the oxygen we got a momentary flow, then nothing. The crew the day before had the crew oxygen bottle changed but it wasn't turned on. Probably totally unrelated to this situation but worth thinking about.

[Loose rivets]

This is a subject close to my heart. But first, just a jogged memory.

I was pre-flighting a medium weight turboprop prior to a passenger flight. My usual test for O2 first flight of the day, was to turn the oxygen off, then keep breathing until I was sure the valve had actually closed.

One day I just kept breathing. I put my finger in the outlet duct while looking in the mask. I could see my finger! The fleet's masks had been cleaned and some NRVs had never been replaced. They'd been flying like that for some days.

You can imagine the potential danger.


The jogged memory was about a Navajo I used to fly occasionally while training crews on a turboprop for most of the time. It was a nice little break, lovely countryside, and an undemanding schedule. But, I often just didn't feel right as I approached say, 8,000 feet.

It was hard to tell what was wrong, but something was. A feeling that the aircraft was balanced on a needle point. Move, and it would fall. I loved aerobatics, and if no pax, would throw it around as hard as I dared. Nothing. All normal. It was just when trying to maintain a smooth flight with a steady power setting.

Long story short, I had a huge medical, and nothing was found. Rather worrying. Then another pilot reported the same thing. The Air Force did his tests. EEGs, the lot. Nothing found. The aircraft was fitted with CO detectors. Nothing.

I reported that the sensation Always went away almost as soon as I dropped the nose for the decent. ( Change in engine note perhaps. )

One doc made the remark that up to now, he'd never had sound vibrations affecting crews, but 'it was going to happen one day.' Maybe. I tried different engine settings but it didn't help. Not enough change perhaps.

The thing is, just imagine if the two of us had been in that aircraft at the same time. Major red herring.

That was in 1979, and never happened again in thousands of hours of flying, though one significant factor has just come to mind. Somewhere in the same year, I was treated with Tetracycline for an ear infection. Can't have been too near the time, or it would have been obvious, but I've had tinnitus ever since, so just maybe a connection. Just a hint of the wrong signals going in from the balance circuits, but not enough to give the game away perhaps.

By the way, there is a school of thought that links that antibiotic with tinnitus. Be careful - Tinnitus sucks.:(

[givemewings]

Barrett, as an aside, the medical profession may not refer to such things as a rebreather bag (or in fact the item I was referring to is incorrectly named in our paperwork) but I can tell you that three airlines I know of refer to them as such.

Not that we're saying it's correct, it's just the term most cabin crew would know them by. Ambu Bag is probably a brand name for the same thing mentioned before. It's what I know it as, I don't doubt medical personnel would call it something else.

[sharksandwich]

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/sharksandwich/rebreather.jpghttp://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/sharksandwich/th_BVM.jpg
Photo sizes have got a bit strange,but the large photo is a rebreather or reservoir bag - the patient needs O2 but can breathe unaided.The small photo is Bag Valve Mask(Ambu bag) - the patient can't breathe unaided, so the semi-rigid bag is squeezed to inflate the lungs with O2.

[givemewings]

Yep, them's the ones!

Though it seems the mask with rebreather/resevoir bags are disappearing from aircraft as I now see more without the bag than with. Perhaps because of the reasons mentioned above that they confuse crew as to what they actually do? Would be interested to know why they seem to be getting changed out.

Is it possible that the confusion is because the term reservoir/rebreather is being used interchangeably?

[incubus]

The technical discussions about mask variants are very interesting but I think that they are obscuring a key concern: that of the "panic" expressed from the flight deck.

No doubt the call across the PA was in line with procedures and there was no panic from the pilots, but it does seem to have been perceived as such by some if not all of the passengers. I could certainly believe that there would have been an abruptness or a seriousness of tone which would not be present in Capt Speaking's regular "cruising at 35,000' " announcement which would have been picked up by passengers and caused the more nervous to become genuinely concerned about.

Now obviously if you have just put the aircraft into a rapid descent due to pressurisation concerns the pax will notice and you can afford a tone of urgency but with no other indications it could be possible to adjust tone or wording to make the important message appear routine.

Passenger worry clearly isn't the overriding factor in this situation (that would be having the crew breathe and function normally) but I would far sooner read headlines like "Passengers unaware while pilots flew on oxygen" than some of the guff which we have seen with this incident.

[wiggy]

it could be possible to adjust tone or wording to make the important message appear routine.

Problem is disguise it as something else to appease some nervous passengers and it may not have the desired effect of getting all the crew members attention and getting them all where they are needed, or might need to be.

As for the tone, well in this case it would seem the pilots thought they had a genuine and fairly urgent problem and I suspect even with all the PA training in the world their tone was going to appear less than routine.....

IMHO when the chips are down you just have to expend with the huggy fluffy stuff, get the job done, and sort the PR/nervous passenger/litigious passenger aspect of it later. FWIW I doubt the incident has been accurately reported here or in the general press so the stories about the PA are irrelevant - most of the "guff" would have been posted anyway.

[batboy1970]

Wiggy, initial post/report on here by myself was bang on accurate, I was there !!!! What ever the press write is up to them.

[lakerman]

I still think what you thought was a panicked call from the flight deck was a normal call heard with the pilot trying to talk with a full O2 mask, as illustrated earlier, being wrapped round his face. This distorts voice and is not uncommon when a depressurisation has occurred and the crew are trying to contact ATC and having difficulty in being understood.

[givemewings]

From a purely physical aspect, making yourself heard when wearing a full face mask, not to mention the breathing rate experienced during a 'pucker moment' would of course sound less than 'routine' to a passenger.

When practicing depressurisation PAs in the sim wearing a mask at a previous company, I was very surprised to see a video of myself later on... sounded nervous as hell, even though being i nthe sim I wasn't. The extra effort required probably made it sound so, I would assume the same in this situation. Wouldn't blame them for sounding a bit jittery though- adrenaline does that to people :ugh:

[mickjoebill]

Other than checking the aircraft over, what action is taken to determine the cause?

Blood samples from the crew? 20 questions about what they ate? Is there a established plan of investigation in these circumstances?

[wiggy]

batboy

I don't doubt that you were there.

Having donned the full face mask (in the simulator) on many occasions and tried to make a suitable soothing PA, I suspect, as do others, that what you describe as:

a very abrupt and panicked message came over the PA from the pilot

was in fact, as lakerman said:

a normal call heard with the pilot trying to talk with a full O2 mask,

If the press and other's want to attribute that unusual sounding PA as panicked, then IMHO I think "guff" still applies.

[M.Mouse]

Pilots very occasionally have to function under great stress. If a pilot is the sort of person to panic then they would not have ever passed through the many hoops of training nor be able to cope with the job in general.

I have been under great stress, I have seen others under great stress what I have never heard is a pilot sounding panicky.

batboy1970, your original post failed to get the phrase used correct, you misinterpreted the fact that a CC member carried an oxygen bottle and you set so many hares running that the story has even made it into the German newspapers.

On behalf of all the pilots in the world thank you for the disservice.

[Mister Geezer]

Without wanting to sound too blasé, such events are more common than perhaps some may think. 757s and 146s have both had a notorious history and when both types were more widely used in the UK, one never needed flick too far through the latest MORs to find similar events, having been recently reported. Although the issue does seem to have improved a lot over the years.

Full face masks, PAN calls, paramedics, cabin crew having O2 ready etc are the routine drills for such events. What would have been more worthy of note is if the crew had not carried out the above drills with such a problem.

I myself have suffered from contaminated air on very short final once. The symptoms were a combination of a mild headache mixed with a rather 'tipsy' feeling, similar to what one could expect at closing time, after one too many!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Why is this thread surviving on R&N? Far more relevant threads that fit the forum description have been binned or demoted in the past. Because the mods have allowed it to develop to five pages of albeit well intentioned passenger questioning and mildly interesting but totally irrelevant breathing apparatus discussion it has attracted the attention of the Idiot Press and they have quoted excitable guesswork/nonsense that has turned a routine turn-back into something it wasn't, complete with "panic on the flighdeck".

So mods, why is it still here?

[stepwilk]

Wiggy, initial post/report on here by myself was bang on accurate, I was there !!!! What ever the press write is up to them.

It was so "bang on accurate," including your description of how the flight crew was making all possible speed back to LHR in their hysteria, that somebody who was actually a pilot had to point out that outbound, they were flying into a strong headwind and when they reversed course, guess what happened? (I'll leave you to puzzle that out.)

Much of "what the press wrote up" is, of course, the obvious result of having read your "bang on accurate" assessment, as an Expert Passenger, of what transpired. Or didn't.

[lomapaseo]

It was so "bang on accurate," including your description of how the flight crew was making all possible speed back to LHR in their hysteria, that somebody who was actually a pilot had to point out that outbound, they were flying into a strong headwind and when they reversed course, guess what happened? (I'll leave you to puzzle that out.)



Another example to us of the accuracy of "witness" statements. Ever a challenge in the accident investigation field.

The observation are of what the witness experienced or thought they saw, interpreted in their narrow field of experienced to be later intrepreted by those experts with specialized knowledge and experience.

It's up to us, the reader to interpret through those few experts that do have the benefit of specialized knowledge and experience appropriate to the subject.

Sometime we depend on the media to search out and find the more appropriate interpretation, while all too often we subcomb to being lazy and allowing the media to just print the words that sell to their readership.

If the media is so dumb that they can't bother themselves to search for the realities than to simply quote an unvetted PPrune source than we have only to blame the news writer and not the witness.

[dns]

Dns

A decompression or fume event is not a simple event and if you work for BA you should be careful not to add fuel to this misinformed media fire!

Sorry, that was a poor choice of words.

I meant "simple" as in a textbook event which all flight crew train for regularly. Nothing "out of the ordinary" so to speak.

[ETOPS]

Mods

Could I throw my weight behind BitMoreRightRudder

The direction this thread has taken - whilst fascinating - is far removed from what actually happened. If we wait for the AAIB report we could then start a whole new thread based on a detailed description by a trusted agency.

I vote to to lock this thread.........

[lomapaseo]

The direction this thread has taken - whilst fascinating - is far removed from what actually happened. If we wait for the AAIB report we could then start a whole new thread based on a detailed description by a trusted agency.

I vote to to lock this thread.........

under those standards

why lock only this thread :confused:

[ETOPS]

OK - split off the entirely spurious posts about decompression and oxygen masks and repost them in the medical section.

Then lock the original thread awaiting some actual facts to emerge from the investigation.

We can then have a completely different set of discussions that don't include the word "rebreather".........

[oggers]

Hmm. The key phrase in the forum title is 'Rumour'. It is not necessary to deal only with established facts in a thread such as this. Not saying that there's anything to this story, just echoing lomapaseos point.

[lomapaseo]

Hmm. The key phrase in the forum title is 'Rumour'. It is not necessary to deal only with established facts in a thread such as this. Not saying that there's anything to this story, just echoing lomapaseos point.


a bit more expansion on my part

I do come here to catch the latest published rumours as well as the vetting afterwards, preferring not to wait for the final report to play catch-up.

However, on the other side, I don't much care to be bombarded with local PPrune theories all the way to conclusions to the point where the unvetted stuff on here creates its own rumour in the news.

just my .02$, I don't have an opinion on how to run this forum

[Dream Buster]

Iompaseo,

Here's another rumour/reason for feeling 'dizzy' - Your old favourite, this time from Air Canada Pilots Association:

http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/docs/news_and_articles/ACPA_fume_events_newsletter11.01.12.pdf

[moggiee]

One curiosity for me that hasn't been discussed is that 20 mins into the flight would mean they were well enroute (assuming the OP meant 20mins from t/o) and with the compromise to safety being speculated why they didn't go to East Midlands or Manchester - would that not have been a quicker way to get on the ground than returning to LHR? This suggests to me that whilst the crew were concerned it wasn't a critical/'Mayday' incident....
To be honest, from that sort of position it would probably take 20 minutes to land at any of the airports that you mention, due to the time required to prepare for the approach and physically fly it. Going back to LHR may not have been quicker but as they had just departed from there (and were therefore familiar with the conditions etc) as well as obviously being familiar with LHR approaches/Missed Approach Procedures, then as a "known" quantity it's a safer bet overall.

[bubbers44]

That is why the FARs say land at the nearest suitable airport. That means one you are familiar with. I am sure ICAO rules are the same.

[bubbers44]

We had smoke fumes through out our 757 over the Florida Keys one day going to Central America. Our closest airport was Navy Key West military base. Landing there made no sense and we did not consider it because descending required distance so we returned to MIA. A few minutes extra to land at a familiar airport is a lot safer than dumping into an unfamiliar airport. The other problem is if you land at the Military base everybody needs to bus back to Miami to start over. We changed gates and were gone again in one hour.

[Dream Buster]

David Learmount of Flight International has commented on this flight.

What Daily Mail passengers worry about on a BA flight - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2012/01/what-daily-mail-passengers-wor.html)

Don't shoot the messenger and apologies if it's been repeated.

[shortfinals]

The BFU (German equivalent of the AAIB) is not letting this one drop. Air Berlin has had two reportable fume incidents in a couple of months, one in an A330 and the other in a 737-700.

On the 737 the copilot was disabled by nausea. All the links are here: Pilot inflight collapse: Germany investigates cabin air poisons - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2012/02/pilot-inflight-collapse-german.html)

[autoflight]

6 pages? Not only that, but a significant number of responses have zeroed in on cabin oxygen masks.

The apparent low level of pilot interest in cabin and cockpit fumes is hard to understand. No excuses.

[sAx_R54]

Pilots very occasionally have to function under great stress. If a pilot is the sort of person to panic then they would not have ever passed through the many hoops of training nor be able to cope with the job in general.

I have been under great stress, I have seen others under great stress what I have never heard is a pilot sounding panicky.

batboy1970, your original post failed to get the phrase used correct, you misinterpreted the fact that a CC member carried an oxygen bottle and you set so many hares running that the story has even made it into the German newspapers.

On behalf of all the pilots in the world thank you for the disservice.

For those occasions when the 'right-stuff' fully resplendent with 20:20 hindsight is lacking, there will always be a heavy dose of arrogance under both epaulets to lean upon!

A tad of grace would not be totally remiss.

[bubbers44]

I have never seen a pilot stressed in an airliner other than normal problems with ATC when you need them but they don't respond because they are occupied with something and you need something now. You are only stressed because you have to deviate from your clearance and no one will talk to you.

My retirement flight I was stressed because we were not cleared for the approach on a short runway and I was way above the glideslope before they finally did and high dived it to one of my worst landings with all my friends on board. The frequency was jammed and they forgot us. I wish I had just gone around until I could have had a normal approach. We had a great steak and lobster dinner for all that night however.

[shortfinals]

Do I get the impression that the sceptics have been silenced by what the BFU has revealed (see post 109 on this thread)? It's all gone very quiet.

[Dream Buster]

More fume casualties - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2012/02/more-fume-casualties.html?cp=NLC-FGFIN20120207&attr=editorial)

Am I the only one to feel relieved that this is going on in Germany - where they like engineering solutions?

Especially when there is near 100% certainty of the cause of the problem, when only 51% is required.

The precautionary principle states 'Face up to the issue' - as health is being knowingly wrecked..

[stepwilk]

Do I get the impression that the sceptics have been silenced by what the BFU has revealed (see post 109 on this thread)? It's all gone very quiet.

My impression is that "the sceptics" were not skeptical--I'll revert to my American spelling--about the cause of this event, whatever it was or wasn't, they were skeptical about the OP's SLF description of the event as verging on panic and fear. I remain skeptical about that.

[lomapaseo]

My impression is that "the sceptics" were not skeptical--I'll revert to my American spelling--about the cause of this event, whatever it was or wasn't, they were skeptical about the OP's SLF description of the event as verging on panic and fear. I remain skeptical about that.

Understandable that confusion when different incidents are merged into one specific incident titled thread. :ugh:

Indeed, to sort this out one has to await the reports from the two different investigating agencies to even draw comparisons.

IMO these incidents need sorting out and assessed for corrective actions.

[dflyer]

Following the copilot's collapse with nausea from oil fumes in the cockpit air on an Air Berlin flight from Milan Malpensa to Dusseldorf in November, German accident investigator BFU has taken the unprecedented step of sending a blood sample from the copilot for analysis to a specialist scientific organisation.


From previous experience the BFU knew what it might find in the copilot's blood: tri-ortho-cresyl phosphate (TOCP), a chemical constituent of the anti-wear additives in aircraft engine oil. This neurotoxic organophosphate has, on numerous documented occasions worldwide, got into the engine bleed air fed to the cockpit and cabin for air conditioning and pressurisation.


So the BFU arranged for the blood sample - taken from the copilot at a Dusseldorf hospital immediately after the flight - to be sent to the University of Nebraska for analysis. The tests proved positive, the BFU has reported. There was indeed TOCP in the copilot's blood, and what is more it had bonded with one of the natural enzymes in the copilot's body that regulates muscular and cognitive neural activity.


This is what TOCP does. The neurotoxicity of organophosphates is a known and understood phenomenon.


The BFU has said it is not going to put this subject down*. It is going to investigate the medical consequences of TOCP poisoning for pilots. Actually this is well known, but the BFU wants its own proof.


This is just what the airlines and aircraft manufacturers have been dreading: a government agency that is not prepared to look the other way any longer, like all the others have done so far.


The UK Civil Aviation Authority, for example, has had to face several cases of the inflight incapacitation of airline pilots.


Its reaction? Heath and Safety issues in an aircraft cabin are not its job [actually that's a wilful misinterpretation of its duties], and besides which, it was the pilots' fault for not getting their oxygen masks on fast enough.


How refreshing to see an agency like the BFU with the courage to face up to an issue as controversial as this.


It may lead to the industry finally having to do something about a problem which has been well known and understood for fifty years, and which has robbed thousands of flightcrew and cabin crew of their health and livelihoods.


Watch now as those with interests at stake try to silence the BFU.


Watch the conspiracy theories about the blood samples being rolled out.


Watch for the denigration of the copilot as a total wimp because the captain was not affected to the same degree.


Even Boeing, which has eliminated the risk of organophosphate contamination from its 787 series by generating cabin air supplies from sources independent of the engines and auxiliary power units, cannot celebrate, because all its other types are conventional.


The Air Berlin flight in this case was a Boeing 737-700 operated for the airline by Germania, but in October last year an Air Berlin Airbus A330 had just such an event, and the BFU is looking into that, too.


No pressurised types that draw bleed air from the engines or APU are immune. That means all of them except the 787.

[batboy1970]

CP many thanks, i stopped even commenting when it all got a bit silly. I have actually been contacted by the airline who have informed me of their initial findings. I wont go public on here but when it is announced it will cause something of a stir i have no doubt. The main thing i got from my corresponce was firstly i was bang on the money, secondly there were no mechanical or technical faults.......not with the plane anyway !!!!!!

Anyway AAIB im sure will clear this up im sure.

[oggers]

To the original poster, on behalf of pilots everywhere I apologise

Small point, nothing to do with the original thread. Please note, you don't speak on my behalf :=

[M.Mouse]

I have actually been contacted by the airline who have informed me of their initial findings. I wont go public on here but when it is announced it will cause something of a stir i have no doubt. The main thing i got from my corresponce was firstly i was bang on the money, secondly there were no mechanical or technical faults.......not with the plane anyway !!!!!!

You start by posting your version of what happened setting all manner of hares running.

Now the airline have given you the full story so far but you aren't going to post it.

I am impressed you were 'bang on the money'. So your first post was accurate?

Fascinating.

[batboy1970]

Yes it was thanks

[oggers]

batboy1970:

I think M.Mouse has a point here. You shared with us a story and asked if the forum could shed light on these events. Now you know something which you are sure will "cause a stir" and yet you are withholding this information from the same forum. Cheers anyway. :*

[batboy1970]

Oggers, firstly I asked a question containing facts, some of you guys made it a story...... yes I have been contacted by the airline and no I will not divulge. If an initial post with a genuine concern can gather so much garbage and it has to be said malice on some occasions then I’m sure I’m not fueling the fire again, I must stem back to a fact that constantly gets forgotten 'I was there'. There have been some really good posts on this and some very interesting PMs on it and again thanks, but if the term 'back seat pilot' exists, then by god they found this post. The funny thing is that when we, the seemingly ignorant punter gets on a plane we are encouraged to raise any questions or concerns we have..........ha ha that’s laughable going by the attitude of some of you Professional PILOTS, there seems to be some heavy duty hypocrisy to be honest and to be honest, so many of your fellow pilots that have PMd me agree...... still it keeps you buys if nothing else.........so Oggers no he does not have a point, far from it.

[KBPsen]

firstly I asked a question containing facts, some of you guys made it a storyNo, first you told a story containing possible facts and definite opinions, then you asked a question. Had you just stuck to the facts and left out the opinions perhaps responses would have been different.

It appears that your main concern is to be right and be able to say so.

[oggers]

Batboy1970:

Sit on this by all means. No doubt there are good reasons for keeping discreet at this stage. However, I think your initial cynicism toward the airline's use of the 'tech fault line' is unfair in view of the fact that it is now you withholding the facts.

On behalf of course_profile may I say I detect a touch of double standards ;)

[lomapaseo]

Can we have some facts from reputable sources rather than the;

"I told you so" attention seekers

[BOAC]

I guess someone has to say it - "Wait for the enquiry to complete" - it is the only way. We have been told (here) there was no tech fault, there will have been an internal investigation and apparently an AAIB one. Unless batboy has the inside track on this we will not know until....................

[old-timer]

What type of a/c was this on ?

[iceman50]

Batboy

some of you guys made it a story...... yes I have been contacted by the airline and no I will not divulge.

I think you will find YOU made it a story and then added a question at the end. What I find interesting is that the airline contacted you directly. Now HOW and WHY did they do that? Did you write / call them first??? Otherwise they have done a masterful detective job to get hold of you!

[batboy1970]

On the night in question we spoke to a repreesentative who in turn took our details and in turn contacted us, i think there were perhaps 15 - 20 people who spoke with the BA rep.

[stepwilk]

What type of a/c was this on ?

Granted this thread is seven pages long now, but if you go back to page 1, post #1, the twelfth word is "A321."

[Basil]

batboy,
a very abrupt and panicked message
As has been said, that could be the reason you've put backs up.
Have you EVER been in the military, professional aviation, fire service, medical service or anywhere a terse and sharp command is issued?
One uses the tone of one's voice as much as the content to elicit the desired response. That ain't 'panic'.
Do you know the precise definition of a 'Panic' reaction? Sometimes it may be the correct response ;)

[batboy1970]

Yes Basil, 15 years previously as a senior local authority fire officer, im more than versed in what a panicked abrupt message is, in fact i have more than likely sent one or two myself and not realised it.. Thanks

[Basil]

batboy,
I've just re-read my posting.
Was a bit harsh and I withdraw - sorry.

[Zorin_75]

Batboy seems to get a lot of the flak because he thinks he heard panic which we all know is of course a physically impossible reaction for a subzero blooded BA captain. While the situation was without any doubt handled in a professional manner and brought to a safe conclusion, maybe it could be conceded that there may have been the remote possibility of a slightly tense undertone when being faced with a scenario of potentially becoming incapacitated midair?

[BOAC]

As 'course profile' has pointed out, the paranoia certain posters are exhibiting over the apparent 'drama' needs to be controlled. As an industry AND professional pilots, we should be concerned about the 'impression' some of our actions create as well as the necessary effects. Perception can be as important as real meaning.

[KBPsen]

Batboy seems to get a lot of the flak because he thinks he heard panicIf only he had qualified it as something he "thought" rather than present it as fact, he would probably have been received a bit kinder. He could have left out the emotive opinions altogether.

It takes two to tango and Batboy made sure his dance card would be filled quickly.

[lomapaseo]

It takes two to tango and Batboy made sure his dance card would be filled quickly.


:ok::ok:

Now that one I need to remember

[Bobbsy]

One comment from me as another lowly piece of self loading freight:

If even one passenger (i.e. Batboy) thought it sounded panicked then perhaps there might have been something wrong with the PA announcement.

If 15-20 passengers were concerned enough to leave their names and addresses with a BA manager (as per a recent post), there was very likely something wrong with the PA announcement.

Batboy is the only poster in this topic who was there and his perceptions are, perhaps, more valid than a pile of pilots saying "that can't be so".

I know nothing more than what I've read in this thread and will happily wait for an AAIB report if there is one. However, attacking a witness to the event for daring to suggest a pilot might have sounded panicked is missing the point by a very large margin.

I'll shut up now but perhaps some of you superman pilots should reflect on your own attitudes if you think all passengers are always wrong and all pilots always perfect.

[M.Mouse]

It is not teh fact batboy posted but the way in which he did it, to quote from his initial post:

...at approx 20 mins into flight a very abrupt and panicked message came over the PA from the pilot " senior flight attendant to the flightdeck", at this point there were defined worried faces across all off attendants, next thing was an o2 cylinder and mask taken forward and we were heading back to LHR at great speed

He states as a fact that the PA was 'abrupt and panicked' not that to him it sounded so.

He got the PA quoted words completely wrong.

He states that the flight attendants all had defined (sic) worried faces, again as if that is fact not opinion.

He then implies that O2 was taken forward as if it was being taken to the pilots when it most definitely wasn't.

IF he had made a post from a more considered position he would probably have received a more sympathetic response.

From my point of view his post was ignorant an alarmist. Now he claims to be in possession of the facts but decides to withold that information I wonder why that is?

[wiggy]

I have actually been contacted by the airline who have informed me of their initial findings. I wont go public on here but when it is announced it will cause something of a stir i have no doubt.

Well I'd certainly hope that any investigator worth his/her salt ( and certainly one working for the airline and versed in company procedures) wouldn't be releasing "initial findings" on an informal level to a member of the public, even an eyewitness.

Time will tell.

[OFSO]

perhaps some of you superman pilots should reflect on your own attitudes if you think all passengers are always wrong and all pilots always perfect.

Very true, Bobbsy.

Years ago flying a Republic Airways DC-9 out of William P Hobby airport and sitting overlooking the wing, once at cruise I called the stew and told her the port leading edge slats had only partially retracted and perhaps she might draw the attention of the guy up front to the fact. "Don't worry, honey, it happens all the time" she replied, and she stalked away, leaving me feeling stupid.

I'm sure most frequent flyers can tell similar stories.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

He then implies that O2 was taken forward as if it was being taken to the pilots when it most definitely wasn't.

Is that a fact or your opinion?

[Dream Buster]

batboy,
I've just re-read my posting.
Was a bit harsh and I withdraw - sorry.


Well done Basil.

It seems that many people are uncomfortable facing up to inconvenient facts.

It would also appear that by the time the AAIB report is eventually published -everybody has forgotten about the incident and moved on - but maybe not with this one?

[Dry wretched thunder]

Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A321-231, G-EUXL (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2012/airbus_a321_231__g_euxl.cfm)

[batboy1970]

This is generating a huge Pprune silence ?? , was it a non event ?? i thought there would have been a post report comment or two, interesting that the Panicked PA call i mentioned seems to have been all to real what with the fact that the pilots were in a state of 'hyperventilation' according to the report....of course this would have been more easier to determine if he VDR actually worked....

[paddy_22002]

Reads like a non event.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Yes, it was in the end a nonevent. I am sure the crew didn't think so at the time, but they handled it the right way.

I have to laugh at the comments and anxiety about "panicked tone of voice". Who gives a sh#t how they say it, it's what they say and what they do that counts. The last thing I am considering as I run through the QRH is the hurt feeling of the passengers if I am loud or fast on the PA. The number one priority is flying the aircraft, everything else is secondary. PAs are way down the list.

Fly the jet!

[Basil]

The number one priority is flying the aircraft
Hear! Hear!
1. Aviate (Don't crash)
2. Navigate (Don't crash into a hill)
3. Communicate (Way down the list - a bit like food in: Protection, Location, Water, Food)

[Eff_Ohh_Ron_Jeremy]

@ captplaystation - post #10...

Hogwash!!!!

(New to the thread. Late response.)