Wildcat

[comedyjock]

Has the first aircraft been delivered to the Army yet? I believe they were due to receive it this month and with all the doom and gloom it would surely be a small good news story before Christmas.

[Wensleydale]

Its a bit late... The first aircraft was delivered to the USN in 1940, and the RN shortly after! :cool:

[Tracey Island]

RTS1 for Army Wildcat 9 Mar 12; first 3 AH scheduled for delivery Apr '12.

[HEDP]

Surely that a will be Wildcat RH1

[helidriver]

I believe the AH in all Army aircraft stands for Army Helicopter.

h

[BS Alert]

Does that mean it will be Wildcat AH2?

[helidriver]

Nope, Wildcat AH1, first version. I think only the Lynx has moved on in Mk numbers for the Army, with the Mk 7, Mk 9 and Mk 9A. Gazelle was AH 1, even after 30 odd years in service and the Apache is still AH 1 even after the MTADS upgrade. I'm not sure what constitutes an upgrade from Mk 1 to Mk 2 and so on. Anyone, Bueller, Bueller.......?

[Charlie Time]

Likely now to Wildcat Mk2 HMA.

[jamesdevice]

shouldn't it be AH10 or 11 carried on from the Lynx? After all, its really just a Super Lynx

[Taff Missed]

Even the historic flight Alouette 2 is known as the Alouette AH1.:rolleyes:

[PTT]

After all, its really just a Super LynxIt's only Super when compared to the Lynx ;)

[ralphmalph]

PTT,

You clearly have had nothing to do with or know about Lynx AH Mk9A!

WILDCAT will have to be very good to keep up (Apart from the cracking tail and **** Oleos!)

The fact that it doesnt come with a .50 or DNVG (the age old....fitted for but not with!) means it will have a catch up game to play as soon as it enters service.

Ralph

[Charlie Time]

Wildcat does come with M3M for HMA and will come with clearance for it for AH.

[PTT]

Nothing like a good bite within one post! It's not like the bait was clearly marked or anything :ok:

[SandChopper]

Aren't 847 Sqn, RN, scheduled to be the 1st to get Wildcat?

[BS Alert]

Will 847 Sqn RNAS operate Wildcat AH or Wildcat with some other suffix?

[Art of flight]

Will whatever they call it still require a hand to TQ match the engines when moving the collective?

[wg13_dummy]

Yep, 847 Sqn NAS will be the first squadron to convert to Army Wildcat......Own goal. Not to mention all Wildcat (Navy and Army) will be painted two tone grey. Own goal #2.......and all based at RNAS Yeovilton


At least the AAC will be taken over by the FAA and not the crabs. Cant be all bad then :ok:

[Odigron]

Nice, bait laid, let's see who bites. :E

[Art of flight]

As ex-AAC I can clearly see the benefit of having the Corps run by a better leadership than it's had in the past and seems to have at present!

The stopper might be the very odd notion that only officers can 'fly' the aircraft?

[Odigron]

Art, just a thought, but are all military doctors and dentists and padres officers? If yes, what's the theory behind it?

[comedyjock]

You ask a simple question..........

For information, the Super Lynx is not all that Super. Unintegrated avionics, average radar and FLIR, very limited lifting capacity etc however the engines are superb if a little thirsty at times.

Wildcat should greatly improve and enhance SA whilst offering similar performance to a Super Lynx/9A. It is not designed as a large or even medium troop carrier so no point complaining about that.

Anyway a bad workman always blames his tools......

Standing back!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

It would certainly be in the best interest of the AAC pilots who are enlisted filth if the were to be subsumed into either a light or dark blue uniform as with the required commission comes the removal of the PA cap :ok:

[ramp_up]

But the real question is why are we looking at axing the Puma 2 and giving the Merlin to the Navy. Wouldn't it be better to consider getting rid of something less capabale eg wildcat and keeping the Puma, then if we really must give the Navy the 101. Makes common sense to me.

[jamesdevice]

presumably the Wildcat can be armed up like he Lynx and used as a gunship / attack / antitank platform? Something the CHF pretty much lost - except for the 847 Lynx - from their main SH fleet with the scrapping of the Wessex 5
Can't see the Puma doing that. Or any thing else short term except the Apache

[Cows getting bigger]

So Wildcat = Lynx Mk?? :ugh:

[stiknruda]

I understand a former boss of a v famous Jaguar Sqn and a Kiwi Jag/Typhoon pilot are involved with these guys

Aerobatic Display Team | Wildcat Aerobatics (http://www.wildcataerobatics.com/)

[jamesdevice]

Wildcat should be Lynx AH-10 unless you thow in complications for the oddball prototypes like the Lynx3 with the WG30 tail....

[ralphmalph]

We have this upgrade for Gazelle AH Mk1, but its not really a Gazelle anymore, its an EC135, shall we call it Gazelle AH Mk2?

......Or it should be - AW159 Wildcat?

[switch_on_lofty]

ramp up wrote:
"But the real question is why are we looking at axing the Puma 2 and giving the Merlin to the Navy"
and:
"Wouldn't it be better to consider getting rid of something less capabale eg wildcat and keeping the Puma"
1) This thread is about the Wildcat, not the Seaking/Puma/Merlin/Chinook or who operates them.
2) I presume that you are referring to the Army version of the Wildcat, if not have a look at the role of the Grey Lynx and see let me know how much of that role could be done by a Puma.
3) The role of Army Wildcat is not the same as Puma. Having a mixture of helicopter sizes and fits for different roles really is essential. Would you want to do convoy overwatch, battlefield recce or amphib ops in a Puma?
I'm not trying to get rid of Puma, I like the idea of Puma 2 and I have friends who fly it.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

'ere, Ralphmalph, I could've understood if you'd said EC120, but don't go chucking chicken-leg aspersions at the 135. It would've stayed as the Bo108 if the Frogs hadn't stuck that monstrously-heavy rear-end onto it.

As for the Lynx (memories of having to take a Mk1 with half-fuel down to a 1'-hover just to spot-turn left), I only hope it doesn't do permanent damage to Anglo-Omani relations. Updating that example of Wastelands design is a bit like gilding a tvrd, IMHO.

[wg13_dummy]

ramp_upBut the real question is why are we looking at axing the Puma 2 and giving the Merlin to the Navy. Wouldn't it be better to consider getting rid of something less capabale eg wildcat and keeping the Puma, then if we really must give the Navy the 101. Makes common sense to me.

Would I be correct in thinking your reply is based on securing your own job in the back of SH as opposed to considering what is best for MoD? Wildcat will be very capable (once we've got funding to stick all the right bits back on it after they were costed out....). Puma 2= Job security and has very little to do with 'enhancing capability'. Let me know if Puma 2 could carry out recce with Apache or act as HMA off the back of a boat (without falling over).

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Wildcat will be very capable (once we've got funding to stick all the right bits back on it after they were costed out....).

So the Wildcat we are buying is not capable :confused:

[wg13_dummy]

I didn't say that. They will be capable on entry as opposed to very capable once all the stuff is stuck back on it :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I didn't say that. They will be capable on entry as opposed to very capable once all the stuff is stuck back on it :ok:

So it wont be as capable as it should be when it enters service and it will only be as capable as it should be if we spend more money on it :confused:

[comedyjock]

I'm trying not to bite but......

"So it wont be as capable as it should be when it enters service and it will only be as capable as it should be if we spend more money on it "

Should maybe read could. Bit like every other piece of equipment purchased by the MOD. How many things are stil in their original state with no upgrade/enhancement/improvement?

I think your title says it all.............Seldomfitforpurpose

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I think your title says it all.............Seldomfitforpurpose

So the Wildcat you guys are getting will be seldom fit for purpose, as in will need money spending on it to get it up to spec :eek:

[wg13_dummy]

Like Typhoon did, like Tornado did, like Merlin did, like SA80 did and like every other piece of MoD procured kit did, yes.

You seem surprised? Not been in the mob long or do you just not take an interest in anything outside your little world?

[Charlie Time]

The clue is in the terminology.......Initial Operating Capability and Final Operating Capability.

[Hilife]

Like Typhoon did, like Tornado did, like Merlin did, like SA80 did and like every other piece of MoD procured kit did, yes.

Oh dear. Is that the best prognosis AW/WH has to offer the MoD and the taxpayer for their £1.65bn investment. And this figure without training and through life support costs.

Unlike the completely 'new-design' equipment you mentioned above, Wildcat is the product of 35-years of Lynx in-service experience, so how utterly depressing your comment, especially in an era when every single penny the MoD has to spend on equipment will count.

I note in the NAO Major Projects Report 2011, that 50% of Wildcat KPM’s are listed as ‘to be met, with risk’ and these include training and through life support, so let us hope Wildcat isn’t going to be a re-run of the Apache crew training fiasco.

Let’s be honest, the Royal Navy are pleased with their SCMR solution, but for the AAC, it was a case of ‘Hobson’s choice’. :(

[chiglet]

Its a bit late... The first aircraft was delivered to the USN in 1940, and the RN shortly after!

Except that the RN a/c were called Martlets

[ramp_up]

Wg13-
In response it's not about securing jobs its about capability and lift. Whilst the Wildcat with all its sensors (if funded and fitted) is very capable, it doesn't have the lift cpability that the Puma 2 will have. As for being armed and sea-going a number of countries do use the ac in this role so that is an extremely weak attack.

However if the Puma is cut over the wildcat, I wonder if it would be to secure the future of the AAC.

Ultimately I hope we get both ac types as politically cutting helicopters whilst still commited overseas would not be a wise idea.

[Charlie Time]

Wildcat has all expected sensors already funded and part of the delivery build standard. There are elements such as TDL for HMA that need to be bought back having been sacrificed to make the programme affordable.

[Bismark]

It will be interesting to see how long it take the AAC to realise they need the capability of the naval variant (ie ISAR radar and weapons)....not long I suspect once they start operating alongside each other at Yeovilton.

If there has to be a choice between Wildcat and Puma I suspect Puma will be chopped (that sort of lift can be bought off the shelf or supplied by the Europeans).

[Charlie Time]

Why would the AAC want an ISAR?

[PTT]

that sort of lift can be bought off the shelf or supplied by the EuropeansWith what cash, exactly? And I believe that the upgrade is more cost-effective than OTS anyway.

[Bismark]

PTT,

Post Afgh Puma will become a relatively marginal capability, not suited to expeditionary ops. To qualify this I suspect that, given the extended length of the recession, expeditionary in the eyes of the Coalition Govt will become "does it go on a ship?". Defence will be all about "poise" but clear of political commitment - what the navy has done for centuries.

[PTT]

Nice self-serving redefinition of "expeditionary" there, Bismark. Meanwhile, back in the real world, it still means what it has always meant, and Puma + C17 can deploy more rotary lift farther and faster than anything else. Shorn of your own assumption of the nature of future ops, Puma delivers more.

[Charlie Time]

The point being missed here is that 'Lift' is just one of the Wildcat roles.

[wg13_dummy]

and Puma + C17 can deploy more rotary lift farther and faster than anything else.

Yes. As its been doing for the past 10 years.....

[ramp_up]

Post selling your souls to keep the carriers how many Wildcats do Fleet really need or to put it the other way how many decks will be left that only take Wildcat?

[Not_a_boffin]

Every deck is spec'd to take Merlin or bigger. T26 has been required to take Wokka, although land/take-off only - I think it's still in the requirement.

[Bismark]

Nice self-serving redefinition of "expeditionary" there, Bismark. Meanwhile, back in the real world, it still means what it has always meant, and Puma + C17 can deploy more rotary lift farther and faster than anything else.

PTT,

"Expeditionary" will mean anything the Govt decides and in such a cash constrained country it will be "does it go on a ship". Please tell me how many C17s are required to lift a CVF/LPH/LPD/+supporting decks worth of FW and Rotary, including support - presumably at the same time they are trying to moves sqns of Typhoon and Tornado, ammunition, JFHQ, StratCom, Field hosp, Challenger etc etc....dream on.

Post selling your souls to keep the carriers how many Wildcats do Fleet really need

Jolly good thing the RN did sell its soul as in the post Afgh world nations that have CVF capability will wield a big stick.....you can't sit an army or air force 12 miles off a coast at minimal political cost. Re Wildcat numbers....the planners will decide how many.

[cyrilranch]

The Navy’s next-generation helicopter has made its debut on the back of a frigate.
A prototype Wildcat – a 21st Century re-invention of the Fleet Air Arm’s trusted Lynx – landed aboard HMS Iron Duke in Portsmouth Harbour for three days of trials.

http://www.navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/files/11122101ax.jpg
Pictures: LA(Phot) Gary Weatherston
BEING guided down on to the flight deck of HMS Iron Duke, this is the first appearance of the Fleet Air Arm’s next-generation helicopter on the back of a Royal Navy warship.
On a very wet December day, a Wildcat landed aboard the frigate in Portsmouth Harbour for three days of trials in and out of the ship’s harbour.
In just three years’ time, the fast and potent helicopter will be the backbone of the Royal Navy’s frigate and destroyer operations around the globe, replacing the trusted Lynx which has served the Fleet Air Arm loyally since the mid-70s.
There are extensive trials and tests which must be conducted before the Wildcat is declared operational. It might look like a Lynx (with the exception of the distinctive tailplane which provides the pilot with improved stability) and fly like a Lynx, but there the similarities end; it’s effectively a brand new aircraft rather than a revamp of the existing helicopter.
And as it’s a brand new aircraft, the Wildcat has to go back to basics, laying down the limits within which it can be operated at sea.
http://www.navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/files/11122101ax-1.jpg
To that end the helicopter will join Iron Duke again next month for three weeks of flying on to and off the deck of the Type 23 frigate.
Before there can be any thought of such trials, however, the Wildcat team – from Agusta-Westland, the Yeovil firm which builds the Lynx, MoD experts, the Aircraft Test and Evaluation Centre at Boscombe Down, RN air engineers and technicians – needed to carry out some fundamental checks, hence three days aboard Iron Duke this week.
Although numerous simulations have been carried out, nothing compensates for doing something for real.
It fell to ex-Fleet Air Arm pilot Martin Dawkins and Lt Cdr Lee Evans from the Rotary Wing Test Squadron to set Wildcat down on the back of Iron Duke – for aviation enthusiasts the model being tested is Trials Installation 3, tail number ZZ402.
As well as landing on the frigate, the team needed to ensure Wildcat could be moved in and out of the hangar using the ship’s helicopter recovery system and (quite importantly) fit in the hangar (it does with a couple of metres to spare), can be refuelled, and can be armed.
All of the above can be done without putting to sea – and will save valuable time when the more rigorous flight tests are carried out next month – known as Ship Helicopter Operating Limits trials.
http://www.navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/files/11122101ax-2.jpg
So far the Wildcat team are impressed by the helicopter’s performance.
“It flies like a Lynx which is good from a pilot’s point of view. It’s stable, it’s got one third more power than a Lynx and that gives you much more confidence as a pilot,” explained Lt Cdr Evans.
The helicopter has already completed ‘hot and high’ trials in Colorado in the USA and has flown on to and off RFA Argus at sea.
For the next series of trials at sea with Iron Duke, the team will gradually increase the weight/payload – including attaching dummy torpedoes – of Wildcat in different sea, wind and temperature conditions. They will also test the helicopter’s ability to communicate and share data with the ship’s operations room team and command systems
There will be 31 people aboard Iron Duke, plus special instrumentation, to assess how Wildcat performs – and the mass of data and readings they record will take around nine months to analyse. “The science going into the trials is amazing,” Lt Cdr Evans enthuses. He’s also looking forward to taking Wildcat to sea in earnest.
“I love this job. It is demanding being a test pilot – you have to keep your eye on the ball. But to be the first test pilot to fly Wildcat at sea is beyond my wildest dreams. Awesome.”
Some 62 Wildcats are being bought by the MOD, 34 for the Army Air Corps, 28 for the Fleet Air Arm. The Army variant is due to begin operations in 2014, with the Naval one in service the following year.




From Navy News
http://www.navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/3131

[Art of flight]

Quote

"It might look like a Lynx (with the exception of the distinctive tailplane which provides the pilot with improved stability) and fly like a Lynx, but......"

:uhoh:

[PTT]

Bismark
PTT,

"Expeditionary" will mean anything the Govt decidesYes, clearly. and in such a cash constrained country it will be "does it go on a ship".Bolleaux. That's your self-serving definition again.

[jamesdevice]

any truth in the rumour that WA are working on a cheap ultra-quiet version for police and observation work which uses the NOTAR technology from the Hughes 500?
Allegedly to be called the Bobcat?

[Bismark]

That's your self-serving definition again.


...except that I have heard it mentioned in political circles several times in the last couple of months. This government have no appetite to forward base forces on land during an "influence" campaign.

Accept it.

[BS Alert]

Bismark,

Could you enlighten the crowd as to the stated requirement for Lit M. Hasn't the Brit Govt said it's needed?

[I'm Off!]

F*** Me, it's a Lynx!!!

[jamesdevice]

"F*** Me, it's a Lynx!!! "

with a WG30 tail.....

[I'm Off!]

With the same tail they used for the speed record. In about 1982...

[Two's in]

"It might look like a Duck (with the exception of the distinctive tailplane which provides the pilot with improved stability) and fly like a Duck, but......"

...it's a Duck.

[watchyourbaK]

It seems a lightweight version is being planned for UKSF and will this impact on the Puma upgrade?

U.K. Special Forces To Use Wildcat Variant - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8625545&c=AIR&s=TOP)

[[email protected]]

The Mk9A will still be the 'soup dragon@:)

Do they mean that 657 will get Wildcat (no surprise) or that 8 flt will get their own?

[Lynxman]

8 Flt has recently got brand new NSRWs so they won't be getting Wildcat.

[alfred_the_great]

Perhaps 815 HQ will get a few more.

[tonker]

They could have spent a third less, got the capability they wanted, and called it the "Black Hawk". Dubious contracts, what, who.........retired with how much at the expense of our soldiers lives, no that would be treason.

[nice castle]

And done that 20years ago...

[gazelle04]

If it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck and swims like a duck. It is a f---ing duck. Substitute duck for Lynx/Wildcat, Same AFCS, same MRGB, same TRDS system, same MRH & blades. This is a "New helicopter on the cheap" based on the proven reliability of its predecessor. Full confidence in this then.

[comedyjock]

Sorry, not the same MRGB, different inputs to AFCS! MRH and blades proven although new ones in development......

[Bismark]

This is a "New helicopter on the cheap"

You are absolutely right....wouldn't have got it through the system if it wasn't. Still a fantastic aircraft though (esp the RN version).

[glad rag]

PMSL, IT'S A LYNX [but different enough to charge ££££££ wonga!]

:ugh:

[glojo]

Latest update regarding Wildcat (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2012/February/17/120217-Wildcat)

Compare the sorties flown to those of the Russian aircraft carrier's

Northern Fleet (NF) warships – aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and large ASW ship Admiral Chabanenko – are pursuing a northern course to continue cruise through the North Atlantic towards home base. Prior to that, the ships have replenished supplies from auxiliary vessels in the Moray Firth.

Underway through the Atlantic, crews of the Russian Navy's carrier group will continue improving naval skills in severe conditions of cyclonically active northern latitudes. In favorable weather conditions, aircrews plan to proceed with training flights of deck-based fighters Su-33 and helicopters Ka-27.

Through the deployment started on Dec 6, 2011, pilots of the carrier group have performed about 350 sorties and acquired wide flight experience in different climatic zones and latitudes. Helicopter pilots have carried out 84 flights (out of over 200 sorties) in the night time.

As for now, aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov has covered over 12,000 nautical miles. The carrier group is expected to call at NF main base Severomorsk by the end of the next week, said NF Press Secretary Capt 1 rank Vadim Serga.

[GreenKnight121]

For that, Wildcat needed to go at sea. It enjoyed two ten-day periods of trials aboard Iron Duke, one in mid-January, the second at the beginning of this month, ranging from the waters off the South Coast to the Western Approaches, Irish Sea and northern shores of Scotland as the frigate searched for suitable weather conditions to lay down the limits for safe Wildcat operations.
In all Wildcat touched down on Iron Duke’s flight deck 390 times, including 148 night landings – 76 of them using night vision goggles.


Hmmmm.
mandatory extra characters

[stilton]

I thought the Wildcat was a WW2 Fighter..

[Tourist]

Greenknight.


Hmmmm?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

From the link posted by Glojo:


Prototype ZZ402 paid a brief visit to Iron Duke just before Christmas, when pilots and technicians tested some of the basics – could the flight deck recovery system pull Wildcat into the hangar (yes it could), did Wildcat fit in the hangar (ditto)...


Was it really not possible to know for sure whether the aircraft would fit into the hangar until it was actually tried with the real aircraft?!


I thought the Wildcat was a WW2 Fighter


So was the Typhoon...?

[Charlie Time]

The trial referred to was the PSIT before the SHOL work. This allows basic safety and integration activities to be completed alongside first - for example, moving the a/c from the flight deck to and from the hangar. The fact that Wildcat did actually fit in the hangar was not a surprise.

[alfred_the_great]

You've never been on some T23s trying to get Merlin in the hangar have you?

[Charlie Time]

Plenty of T23 time, thankfully not with Merlin.

[Bengo]

Early Lynx/T23 trials showed that the aircraft didn't actually fit properly in the hangar! The Mactaggart Scott system "towing arm" length was such that the TR was officially too close to the door and likely to get clobbered as the door panted. Fortunately the tail fold still worked.

Then there was the T22 with 8in high raised winch boxes either side of where the SK tail wheel was supposed to be. They had to be faired in to allow safe SK ops.

And before that the Lynx conversion of a Leander where the hangar had been rebuilt with a Wasp layout (mainly)!


Engineers work to the nearest thou, dockyards to the nearest ship.

[Two's in]

Has the fuel system for the Wildcat been redesigned/modified from that of the Lynx? There is a well documented trail of Lynx accidents where the rupturing of fuel tanks and lack of self-sealing QR couplings in the system have contributed to that aircraft's repution for burning after a crash, plus of course multiple recommendations from BOI's suggesting it be addressed. Does Haddon-Cave's influence extend to Wildcat, or was it too late?

[Killbox]

I think he meant SAR, not ISAR. They will certainly want the GMTI mode as well. While the Army wanted a flying supercharged Landrover , they are going to get a flying BMW X3, so now they have realised they need to reinvent a role as the 'X3' can't do their current role overseas. In fact, it is only good enough for the school run, ie, just up the road and back (via the petrol station). Looks good though with lots of fancy Sat Nav systems and DVD players for the troops to watch in the back. That 'new' role seems to be that of scouting out targets for AH as the Gazelle did. (and finally getting to the point after my waffle........)GMTI would be great for this role. As with a BMW X3, the AAC should be more concerned about fuel burn rates. It doesnt take a genius to work out that a bulky aircraft, so less efficient aerodynamically, which is a fair bit heavier but with the same fuel load is going to have endurance/range issues in Hot'n'Heavy conditions. I very much doubt engine efficiency will make up the delta. I would love to see a comparison of Lynx 7, 9A and Wildcat in Afgan while trying to keep up with Chinooks, Merlins or even SK4.
On the plus side, it's going to be a great improvement for the RN. They will rarely need to bomb around at 140kts with such an good EO device and radar. Still lacks a proper data link though.
The AAC should have embraced the project from the start when it was BRH and made changes/additions early on (like DNVG). To be fair, I doubt that would have helped as the MOD was always going to be told by the government to let Westland (or Restlands) win the contract instead of the Blackhawks, or am I being too cynical?