Copilot endorsement with ME Command instrument rating.

[A37575]

Command Instrument Rating hypothetical question. Candidate fronts up to renew a command instrument rating which he originally obtained on Seminole. Last renewal also on Seminole.
Same candidate has valid copilot endorsement on A320. Candidate desires to renew his CIR in the A320 simulator from RH seat rather than in a Seminole.

An instrument rating is not type specific under Australian regulations. In other words a CIR (ME) entitles you to use the privileges of the rating in a 747 or a Seminole.
The question arises however that the candidate only has a copilot endorsement on the type of aircraft he wishes to renew his command instrument rating (ME) on. Is this legal?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

No.

You must hold a command endorsement.

Will find a ref, but if your command rating is current, you will be logging the test as ICUS. In order to do this, you must not only have a current rating, but In Command Under Supervision requires you to be able to competently and legally fly the aircraft as if you were PIC, which can't be done with only a co-pilot rating.:ok:

[RUMBEAR]

A few years ago it was quite common to renew command instrument ratings for candidates that conducted the test in an aircraft in which they held a co-pilot endorsement. However CASA now direct ATO's to only renew instrument rating as co-pilot instrument rating. This direction is contained in the ATOM (ATO manual) which is available on the CASA website. As far as I understand the only basis in regulation for this direction is CAR 7, which permits CASA to issue directions!!

[rmcdonal]

Interesting, I held a CMEIR and had it renewed in a sim as a Co-Pilot with only a co-pilot endorsement. That would have been in 2009. However it was part of a cyclic program so maybe that's the difference?

[Capt Claret]

Last time I looked, if one flew to the standard of a CIR and flew all the sequences, one qualified for a CIR. To the best of my knowledge, all of the F/Os I fly with hold CIR, renewed annually from the RHS.

What can't be done in the scenario above, is fly Single Pilot IFR after renewing in a multi-crew aircraft, or vice versa.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Had a mate doing his co rating in a Bell 222 recently. Because he only had a co rating on type, although the ATO said he flew to CIR standard (held plank CIR for many years), he was only able to issue the co rating.

ATOM ref all I can find so far.

CC, only until they get the hour and 1 approach in a synthetic trainer or as single pilot.
CAO 40.2.1 Para 11.5

No reason if they renew a CIR in a single pilot op why they can't use it for multi-crew.:ok:

[Capt Claret]

From CAO 40.2.1 - INSTRUMENT RATINGS

Recent Experience Requirements
11.5 The holder of a command instrument rating shall not act as pilot in command on single pilot I.F.R. flights unless within the preceding 90 days:
(a) that person has completed as a single pilot operation either in an aircraft certificated for single pilot operations or an approved synthetic trainer, 1 hour instrument time including 1 instrument approach, as pilot in command or acting in command under supervision; or
(b) that person has passed the instrument rating test conducted as a single pilot operation.

So, if one completes a command Instrument Renewal in a multi crew aircraft and does not meet the single pilot IFR requirements the one cannee do it.

[AerocatS2A]

For many years the operator I worked for issued co-pilot endorsements and co-pilot instrument ratings. Then someone kicked up a stink because he joined the company with a command instrument rating and left with a co-pilot instrument rating which isn't recognised in other parts of the world. The company then started issuing command instrument ratings but still only co-pilot endorsements. Then sometime last year it was decreed by the head of training that CASA require a command instrument rating to only be issued to someone with a command endorsement. Now the company issue command endorsements and command instrument ratings.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

CC,

Very important word at the end of para 11.5

The holder of a command instrument rating shall not act as pilot in command on single pilot I.F.R. flights unless within the preceding 90 days:

(a) that person has completed as a single pilot operation either in an aircraft certificated for single pilot operations or an approved synthetic trainer, 1 hour instrument time including 1 instrument approach, as pilot in command or acting in command under supervision;

or

(b) that person has passed the instrument rating test conducted as a single pilot operation.

So if one completes their CIR in a multi-crew aircraft, they go and sit in a synthetic trainer for a hour (using a single pilot a/c model), conducting at least one approach, and they can fly single pilot ops.
:ok:

[A37575]

Then sometime last year it was decreed by the head of training that CASA require a command instrument rating to only be issued to someone with a command endorsement.

This sounds suspiciously like one FOI's personal opinion rather than a quote from a regulation. Opinions from CASA FOI - like opinions from heads of training - are not worth one iota unless backed up by facts (regulations).

[Capt Claret]

MIHC,

Agreed. I thought I said that in the second post, with an equally important word in the last sentence.

"So, if one completes a command Instrument Renewal in a multi crew aircraft and does not meet the single pilot IFR [recency] requirements the one cannee do it." :}

Left out another important word though, "recency".

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Understood

Thought you meant the ability to fly single pilot would not be available, regardless of recency, until a CIR was done single pilot.

Cheers.