JetStar A321 - insufficient stopping distance

[angelorange]

Misdirected data check led to Jetstar A321 take-off incident (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/misdirected-data-check-led-to-jetstar-a321-take-off-incident-365955/)

V1 160KIAS and 450m remaining runway at Lift off point.

[safelife]

Bookmarking? Like in books made of paper?
Does anyone still do that?
I thought it's all FOVE nowerdays (LPC)...

[Sunfish]

Third Jetstar incompetence report in the last week. This is not good.

- Unstabilised approach.

- Incorrect configuration

..and now this.

[fl610]

Should they be grounded?:ooh:

[Sarcs]

The report for this one is here:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2229778/ar2009052.pdf

[Keg]

V1 160KIAS and 450m remaining runway at Lift off point.

Lol. You've obviously never taken off in a 744 at MTOW on a hot day in LAX. :ok:

[PNM]

Or an A340-300 out of JNB!

[Sub Orbital]

V1 of 160 kts??!!@You're kidding me, right. Any common sense here?
Tell me ANY commercial jet that has a V1 of 160 kts.
What ever happened to basic common sense checks?

[Artificial Horizon]

Pretty sure I used a V1 of 160kts on an A320 out of Sydney the other day, looking at my Perf Manual now, 10kts Headwind, 60 degree Flex, Flap 1+F will give a V1 of 160 kts on RWY34L at Sydney. Why exactly is this so absurd???

[Oxidant]

B757-200, TOW 116 tons, Flap 5. V1/Vr 164kts...............................

[Red Jet]

B777-300ER at MTOW, V1 usually up around 172-177 KIAS

[THRidle]

A330, TOW 224 T, V1 166.

[flyingins]

Sub Orbital
No one is kidding you, but clearly you don't fly A320/A321s. Or any other large commercial jet, for that matter.

On a runway as long as DRW's (or SYD 34L/16R, BNE 01/19 etc etc) V1/VR combinations of 160 knots (or even a little higher) are both common-place and perfectly within the design parameters of the aircraft's RTO performance, particularly when using un-balanced field length calculations.

In fact the tyres on the 320/321 are rated to 195 knots, so as long as the brakes can handle the energy (which they can), the only limiting factors become TORA, ASDA, obstacles in the splay, reduced thrust parameters and runway condition.

The issue here isn't the V1 speed itself, it's the fact that it was predicated on a full length departure but the crew mistakenly took off from an intersection instead, thus making V1 and the chosen thrust setting (assumed temp or "Flex") invalid.

Common sense is relative to the knowledge you have, I'm afraid.

[Bula]

a cock up .. yes.. but by the grace of god on that one departure the Captain didn't need to yell "STOP!"....

As for the rest of it.... runway 27 in YMML and Runway 34R YSSY...... I'm sure there is not much more than 450m when we unstick (maybe a little more on 34R with the 200m displaced threshold but god it looks like it could make a bad day worse), as with most places that have limiting runways.

Lady luck was looking out that day, but wouldn't have been the first T/O with incorrect V speeds. Just ask the guys in AKL who clean the rubber of the runway, they still get nervous whenever they see a Singapore 747 line up at the far end. I was in stitches when I overheard the quiver in that guys voice. I think they vacated none the less :)

[Global Xpress]

While we're having a pissing contest, Dash 8 200, Lord Howe V1/VR 87kt:ok:

[Jack Ranga]

Lol. You've obviously never taken off in a 744 at MTOW on a hot day in LAX.

One of the most amusing flying experiences I've had. Too much fuel loaded on the 743 (QF26, LA-AKL). Stationary somewhere on the aerodrome, throttled up burning excess fuel before T/O. Gold :D

[novice110]

To those quoting high V1 speeds at high weights -
What is the field length ?

So a V1 of 160kts from the intersection (2316m TODA) is normal ?

Maybe this is what sub orbital was referring to in 'common sense checks'.

[Oxidant]

"Maybe" he should have chosen his words with more care?

You're kidding me

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

V1 of 160 kts??!!@You're kidding me, right. Any common sense here?
Tell me ANY commercial jet that has a V1 of 160 kts.
What ever happened to basic common sense checks?

[gobbledock]

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK

[A37575]

Let's put this into proper perspective.

All this blood sweat and tears in Pprune and the media about a couple of relatively minor incidents investigated by ATSB.

Now if the media had unfetterd access to all the QAR reports (unstable approaches, excess airspeeds, flap/gear speed exceedances, high sink rates on final, excessive float, landing long etc), that stream in regularly each day to the domestic and international airline flight safety departments, can you just imagine the screaming headlines about dangerous practices in Australian airlines. Huge bubbles of complacency would burst and we would never hear the end of it all.

[angelorange]

Depends on your perspective and what if this A321 crew had needed to stop? Would they have got away with it?

Open reporting is far more beneficial to developing better airmanship amongst all aircrew rather than letting old dogs lie. Learning from our own and others mistakes hopefully avoids repetition.

What can we learn from incident/accident reports?

Seems PPRUNE mods have moved this and other flight safety related threads to Dunnunda or Jet Blast in recent days rather than given it a wider audience.

[toolish]

Why am I not surprised

Jetstar response=don't bookmark pages.
proper response= check ALL data correctly (do you think it is not possible for two pilots to turn to full length data page instead of B intersection page at 2am if both t'off points are often used and the crew are not in the practice of checking ALL data):ugh::ugh::ugh:.

[Capt Claret]

Jetstar's response not to bookmark pages was I believe correct.

A colleague who had the joy of working pre that year one of the domestic carriers, said that they'd learned the hard way, that if the TOLD card was left in the page used for its completion, there was less chance that the use i=of the wrong page would be brought to light.

If it was good enough for them, then why not JQ?

And to say "check all data correctly", denies the fallibility of the human, regardless of race, colour, creed, or employer. :}

[Sarcs]

While we are on the subject of TO data miscalculations, the final report is out on the Emirates A340 tailstrike incident out of Melb:

Investigation: AO-2009-012 - Tailstrike and runway overrun - Airbus A340-541, A6-ERG, Melbourne Airport, Victoria, 20 March 2009 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ao-2009-012.aspx)

Planetalking is on to it as well:

Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)