New EK Upgrade Policy

[Rim-job]

Can anyone confirm or deny the new FCI that came out today regarding the upgrade policy?

I'm away on vacation and can't confirm it as I have no access to company portal but i've been told they changed it to 6000 hours TT with at least 2500 hours on EK aircraft. Plus the obvious 3 years in company. No 55 ton limit either i believe.

Can anyone add some insight.

[Payscale]

It was also 6000 hours before, and 3000 on any EK type

[MagicCarpet]

6,000 hours total time is still required but the 4,000 hour hard time (>55tonnes) requirement has been eliminated for command eligibility.

[Rotaiva]

I too commend it! A little closer to reality; ppc performance plays a big part.

[GoreTex]

lucky 380 F/O's

[CAVnotOK]

No Piston time, single or multi-engine time will count towards the 6000hrs total time requirement.

Cav.

[Ketek400]

Only A330/340 fleet though!

[helen-damnation]

But as GoreTex points out, 380 FOs appear to be able to upgrade on type:
1000 hours on the type you will upgrade on.

Standby for "heritage" fireworks :oh:

[Instant Hooligan]

Sorry guys this is just part B of the requirements, part E for 380 f/o's remains unchanged for upgrade from what I see

[Will Rogers]

Excellent news indeed!!! :ok:

It does state towards the end that it is the requirements for normal command on the 330/340 and 777 fleets only. So as the 380 does not seem to be included I'm guessing still no upgrades on that fleet... ...at present.

[emratty]

A sensible decision from the management I just laugh when I read the reasons for it. This in reality will only benefit the Boeing F/O's as the Airbus 330/340 phase out is being accelerated next year which in turn means we are going to have a surplus of 330/340 skippers even after guys transferring to the 380 are taken into account hence the 777 transfers.
The right to left on the 380 is a non starter from the very top it has been rejected. I suspect the first chance the guys on that fleet will have for an upgrade is when the A350's start to arrive.

[captainsmiffy]

i.e. shafted again!! Just months after the transfer I now qualify on the old fleet for command but am frozen on type...doh!!

Please, nobody tell me that I shouldn't have moved - had no choice when flt ops warned me that (on the old rules) my command would loosely be pencilled in for 2013 and that I could refuse the 380 but, if I did, then they would reserve the right to put me on it at their whim - which could be jan 2013 (their words, not mine). At that time, somebody in flt ops must have been aware that this change was in the wind. Does the old morale no end of good, that!! After you with the vaseline...

[Rim-job]

I agree with emratty....

Great news for the Boeing guys. Doesn't mean anything for Airbus guys as there are no A330 upgrade classes available until at least next June. And even then, they are few and far between.

Only way things will improve on the Airbus side is either left - right upgrades on the A380 or the A350 coming soon (as in tomorrow).

[Instant Hooligan]

There are upgrades on the bus in Jan,Mar and Apr with more to come once the plan is made with the new policy!! Thats from the person that puts the names to the courses.

[vfenext]

Rim, there are 330 upgrades in Dec, Jan and Feb.

[Rim-job]

Sorry guys...

I didn't make myself clear. I know there are Airbus courses in Jan/Feb/Mar... I meant to say there are no slots available until May/June-ish. I know they say May but whatever they say, I tack a month on. So guys that are interviewing today are lucky if they get a slot before summer.

That's kinda what I was getting at....

I didn't exactly mean that there were no courses at all. Just that there were no slots in the foreseeable near future.

[fatbus]

At least this will look after all the 777 fo's that have been by passed, but with the FCI taking effect right away any 777 fo's that were on course in the new year will be removed and will be a very long time til they upgrade.There is 100+ bypassed guys, 330 capts will contine to go over to the 777 not just next year and there is still a lot of 330 upgrades.

[vfenext]

Rim, wrong again. Guys being interviewed now for Jan course. From Horses mouth. (Not Ed)

[Wizofoz]

Just shows how stupid the policy was to start with.

Solved a problem that never existed.

[helen-damnation]

Happy to be corrected, my bad!

captain smiffy;
Things change pretty quickly in the offices, not sure if they would have know 6 months ago about this. Having said that, it doesn't help you. Why don't you have a word with JA. Realisticaly, it's unlikely to change anything but I believe he'll give you a straight answer if he can.

Rgds H-D

[tripleflyer]

Interestingly enough, question was posed in wash-up today. Answer...upgrade courses planned will be honored. Standby, as always, for further

[falcao77]

Hi,

I am seriously thinking to move to EK. Although I know it's a difficult question, as we live in uncertain times...

If I join EK now, how long do you think it would take to upgrade to captain at EK?

Do you think that if I join EK now I would have a better chance to upgrade captain in less time, than if I join some time later (say in 2 years time)? Or do you think that EK will continue with the present (unbelievable) expansion rhythm?

[whossorrynow]

it's a difficult question,It sure is.

Right now there are more than 70 F/Os that have been with Ek for longer than 5 years but less than 6 years, although a few of them may be on upgrade courses at this time.

On the other hand there are Captains who have recently upgraded from F/O positions after not much more than 3 years in the company.

Ironically most of the 5-6 year F/Os joined thinking they would get a chance at upgrade at around 3 years. And some of the 3 year upgraders joined thinking they would be waiting for 5-6 years before maybe moving to the left seat.

It's all to do with moving goalposts, changing requirements and fleet on joining.

At some point in the next couple of years growth is likely to slow, many of the new aircraft are planned as replacements rather than additions. Come expecting 7-10 years for upgrade and you probably won't be disappointed.

[fatbus]

@150 AC now long term plan 280 up from 250 AC by 2020, you do the math, 3000 pilot now

[Laker]

Falcao77

Call me an optimist but I would plan on a 4-5 year upgrade. Emirates has always exceeded expected growth rates. I don't think the majority of guys come here to fly and live in Dubai until retirement age. I would guess that if we ever get through this global economic uncertainty you will see lots of pilots who have been here 10-15 years going home.

If you want to join EK then do it sooner than later. If you wait 2 years then you will have another 1000 FO's senior to you.

[desertcamel]

Falcao77

roughly 190 more airplanes coming til 2020, plus or might include the new ordered 777s.

im guessing that a pilot who will join EK and be within 3000 to 4000 will see an upgrade earlier than those having 4000 to 5000+ seniority number. By then , aircraft deliveries will slowly stabilise and company would have upgraded the people they need for the current fleets.

attrition rate due retirement, medical grounding , company transfer etc are quite minimal at this stage. If you join now, you might get a chance. If you join later or too late, then everything will just be a matter of waiting....when? no one exactly knows.

my 2c,
DC

[fatbus]

Remember that it is not a increase of 190, the fleet plan was 250 by 2020 , during the the air show TC said its now 280 by 2020 and 30 more 380 (250 to 280 ), @ 75 ( 332/343/345/772/773 and some 773ers )retirements in the same time frame. 150 / 3000 pilots 250/5000 and 280/@6000, 1000 pilots to be hired in the next 2 years that amount per year may continue for a couple more . Attrition , which includes retirement is running at 2.5 to 3 % , @ 100 per year . Plan on 6-7 years and you might be surprized

[Wizofoz]

Three near-catastrophic events in the last ten years from when the airline was a quarter to a half its present size, and with more experienced pilots onboard: the holes are all slowly lining up.

Could you point to where the number of hours on aircraft over 55 tonnes the Captain had was a problem in any of those incidents?

[position & hold]

Notes:

1. Total Time is defined as all flying as P1 and/or P2, excluding single-
and multi-engine piston

What's the general interpretation of this? It was never specified in the original OMA requirements. One way I read it it discounts all piston time. The other, if you put a lot a lot of weight on the backslash, discounts P2 piston time only. Can anyone enlighten me? As someone with nearly 3000 piston command I potentially have a lot to lose!

Thanks

[BigGeordie]

The 55 tonne rule is a red herring and always has been. If you hire the right people and (this is the important bit) train them properly then after 3 years it should be impossible to tell what they flew before and they should be more than ready for an upgrade. If people choose to spend their time in the right hand seat doing nothing more taxing than reading the Gulf News then that is a completely different matter.

In the past EK has tried to make up for shortfalls in training by introducing arbitrary rules to delay upgrade courses. Fortunately that now seems to be ending.

[falcao77]

Thank you all, for the very useful information.

[ROKAPE]

position & hold

It would seem Emirates prefers its Captains to have experience on turbine engined helicopters rather than on single or multi engine piston aeroplanes.....

[Heritage 1]

It seems so. I have gone from eligable for upgrade, as I had enough time on jets above 55t, to not eligable as I have too much piston engine time and so don't meet the 6000tt requirement anymore!:ugh: I suppose that makes sense to somebody.:rolleyes:

[lfrk]

Same same... I have 3000+ hours as P1 on piston, but they are now gone :\ (for EK)

[GoreTex]

if I had an airline I wouldn't give a 777 into the hands of a guy who's experience is mostly on pistone planes, I actually dont know any airline who does

[whossorrynow]

At the beginning of this week EK had 165 aircraft, a planned fleet of 280 aircraft by 2020 will be 115 additional aircraft, at 9 upgrades per aircraft that will be 1035 new Captains. There are 1600+ F/Os at Ek right now.

Then factor retirements & resignations although historically these come from both ends of the seniority list and are not often on age as EK has a young pilot group. To counter this assume a resurrection of Direct Entry Captains (DECs).

Many of the complainers on this board are the people who joined expecting an upgrade in 3-4 years and are still in the right seat at the far side of 5 years.

[position & hold]

Let's be thankful you don't have an airline then Goretex.

[Instant Hooligan]

Don't feel bad some of us had 6000+ jet with half of that as pic and under the old rules didn't qualify for command either.

[GoAround_Flaps20]

Every command hour should be respected, IMHO. I don't work for EK, but think that, if needed, they might reconsider their opinion anytime.

Safe flights! Blue on top always.

[Heritage 1]

As a matter of interest, has anyone written to fleet about the 6000 hour and piston time issue? Would like to know what their response was?