Foreign pilots warn about Turkish Airline in Danish news paper Politikken

[PA28Viking]

13 current and past foreign pilots of Turkish Airline speaks out about the very low profiessional level of turkish pilots in the airline.

Google Oversæt (http://translate.google.co.nz/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolitiken.dk%2Ferhverv%2FECE1476128%2Fpiloter-slaar-alarm-over-flyselskab%2F)

One quote from a captain:

"It is a dangerous company. I have never in my time as a pilot sitting next to a mate who was incompetent and just let the stick because there was nothing he could not handle. But I have now, "says one pilot.

The paper has also had access to british ATC reports stateing that Turkish Airline was the one with most level busts in UK Airspace

There are two articles and Google gives a good enough translation to english. The other one is here (the headline reads: Pilot of Turkish Airlines, "I never thought I would be afraid to fly" ):

Google Oversæt (http://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=da&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolitiken.dk%2Fudland%2FECE1476062%2Fpilot-i-turkish-airlines-jeg-troede-aldrig-jeg-skulle-blive-bange-for-at-flyve%2F)

Another quote:

"One of the foreign pilots tell of a conversation he had with a Turkish-pilot on a flight. The first officer told that he wanted a job in an airline outside Turkey.

I replied that he first had to improve his English skills. He said that he had indeed passed the internal English test from the Turkish aviation authorities. Next day we had to fly out of a major European airport. It was snowing heavily and there were many delays. In such situations, the air traffic control is busy. There are spoken quickly over the radio and they say many things outside the standard. The co-pilot knew nothing of what was said, so I had to take over radio communication. "


The airline rejects it all and no national or international authorities have noticed any problems (apart from the Amsterdam crash)

[AltFlaps]

That was one of the big issues during the investigation of the Amsterdam crash - the Turks just would not accept that one of their pilots could have been at fault !

[cyflyer]

The paper has also had access to british ATC reports stateing that Turkish Airline was the one with most level busts in UK Airspace

And this is NOT a problem ????

as,
no national or international authorities have noticed any problems (apart from the Amsterdam crash)

I would say that is a HUGE problem.

[fdr]

lovely people, great city.... would rather walk than fly with them, and I have seen spectacularly bad operations... Think this is not the last we will hear about them, unless they truly change their spots.

There are some guys in the company that are aware that a change is needed, but there is a stack of deadwood there, and more on the way. Great food. There are also a lot of ferringhi's there that are trying to make a difference.

My favorite story (first hand) is a friend who was doing OE and was denied the use of checklists by the IP.... "we don't do that here.... " coming about 18 months after pancaking a new twin in the mud, it seems a bit, er, courageous...

'nuff for now, but don't be surprised to get more in the near future, there is activity under the water.

The Aya Sofya is spectacular, and the Bosphorus is a fun day out. The quakes are entertaining, a big one there is going to result in BBQ's all around the edge of the Sea of Marmara, of biblical proportions. Really good food. Nice people. Hope they start flying aircraft instead of whatever they are trying to do now. Lots of pretty cabin crew...

[hetfield]

It's time someone speaks up.....

[captjns]

Let’s not forget about the THY A-340 crew that could not negotiate a high speed turn off at Mumbai in this past summer. Runway 27 was closed for a couple of days.

[Plectron]

They are not the only one with huge safety problems that are endemic to the company. At least it isn't illegal for them to speak out as it is in some places. Notice too, no one has been instantly flamed on here by the rah-rah boys for saying all this, la.

[captplaystation]

Around 3 years ago I presented myself for a screening with Turkish.

The interview was novel, myself & another candidate (only two of us showed up that day) were sat around a big table, drinking tea, with around half a dozen fleet managers/chief pilot/ops director or whomever was in town that day & fancied a cup of chai.
Very convivial, but what struck us was that of all the management wallas present, only 1 spoke English confidently enough to ask any questions, all the others passed through him. This lack of English skills among the senior pilot mangement is undoubtedly reflected in English Level4 being a tick in a box rather than a REAL requirement.
The sim "test", was notable for the total lack of any need to display CRM/use checklists/ follow procedures. Just get in, take off, have an engine failure, turn downwind & shut down the engine yourself downwind on a visual circuit, never mind that engine flmeout is not a Recall item ( the other guy is only there so you have someone to talk to when you are feeling bored :rolleyes: ) checklists? Nah real pilots don't need them.
The whole thing was quite a ride & was conducted by 3 of them, jibbering away excitedly behind us in the instructors station. I was told by previous candidates that post-Hudson (but pre AMS ) the favourite laugh was double eng failure, land in the bosphorus, they had dropped that when I attended post AMS, strangely they didn't give me stall recovery in the approach configuration nor auto-throttle failure :hmm:
I was genuinely quite shocked that this little "intro" might be in fact a heads-up as to how they operated, & wasn't quite sure by the end of it if I really wanted to find out. I wasn't offered the job anyhow, having made the fatal error of asking if the 737 roster would accomodate commuting (it wouldn't , & it seems you weren't meant to ask ) but I did end up working for another Turkish company subsequently.

Some of the stuff I saw there both in the Sim, & whilst line training,in particular the First Officers total unwillingness to point out anything that might offend you/ call into question your performance as a Capt, went a long way to aiding my understanding of the AMS accident.
Big, big cultural problems for aviation in that country,speaking up against your "seniors" just doesn't happen in general life & most of the older generation pilots are ex military & very "old school", resulting in a cockpit gradient that is much too steep to permit speaking up in many cases, regardless of the age/experience in the RHS. The full report of the AMS accident suggested the PIC was not of this mentality at all, & was respected & liked for his fair attitude, but. . . no matter how fair he was, how able did the other two guys feel to intervene / go over his perceived position/authority.
The attitude between pilot managers/office staff, and between Turkish pilots /cabin crew seemed strangely "sixties", to an outsider. If you need further evidence of this paternal/hierarchy attitude that pervades their society, look at the social problems relating to Turkish women, their choice of partners, & the family "reaction".

Would be difficult to argue that ingrained safety problems do not exist in Turkish, the only frightening thing being that many of the same observations could be levelled at countless other carriers (as many of us have seen first hand )
Doubt if any credence will be given to this by anyone who could make a difference, as the Turkish CAA / Turkish Airlines guys will all have flown in the same squadron & will perpetrate the status quo.

[captplaystation]

Superpilot,
Exactly what I found in another Turkish carrier, so would doubt any of them are significantly different.

[bekolblockage]

Sounds like nothing has changed since the days of the DC10 accident.
Seem to recall in the lead up to that, some horrendous stories during their training.
163 pilots and 159 of them Captains-???
MD trainers aghast at the arguments that would break out on the flight deck with the result that one or more of them would leave the cockpit!!!

[Algol]

A friend who worked there told me they have official 'grades' of Captains? An 'A' list and a 'B' list, with certain restrictions on the B listers.
Any truth in that?

[fox niner]

Well, it doesn't surprise me.

Just read the CVR transcript of the Amsterdam accident.
The Senior Instructor / captain of that flight was spoken to only with the Turkish word "Hocam".
Apparently it means "master/commander" or similar....
Resulting in a horrendously steep cockpit gradient. Unfortunately this was not adressed in the final report.
Steep cockpit gradients cause unsafe flying environments.

[Piltdown Man]

...the Turks just would not accept that one of their pilots could have been at fault!

In much the same way as Americans at Boeing never admit to having any design faults in their aircraft. However, I think Captplaystation has nailed with:

...the only frightening thing being that many of the same observations could be levelled at countless other carriers.

Like UK ones - I can remember being balled out by an arrogant, selfish, over-confident, know-it-all, impatient, ex RAF dwarf because HE overshot the stopping point as HE taxied in (longish story). But I'm afraid he was typical of the fast jet dross we had to put up with. Obviously, there were many good guys and fortunately some are still with us.

[fdr]

I was genuinely quite shocked that this little "intro" might be in fact a heads-up as to how they operated, & wasn't quite sure by the end of it if I really wanted to find out. :Catsplay

Spot on. :uhoh:

The B737 HoT would shut down engines without command as PNF, without using a checklist, without confirmation, without... in fact any common practice being employed (except, this appears to be the common practice at the particular airline...). i saw this first hand, and probably didn't endear myself by asking "WTF are you doing? ", while trying politely to break his wrist. :mad:

A candidate was given an single engine flame out, and the support training captain shuts down without command the other engine. The aircraft glides into the Bosphorus, and the candidate fails...

AS CPS has noted, this is not limited to the "Sons of Anarchy"... but it is prevalent and the recent history bodes ill, particularly following their AMS bingle where apparently no one is interested in the learning points. (it took the "Dukes of Hazzard" 25 crashes to become anally compliant and far better at covering up their more recent 3 write-offs as maintenance retirements...). (In a past life in a culture that is rather "straight laced..." an FO tried to shut down the wrong engine without command ina sim session, and I picked his hand off the fuel control switch by the overly large fascia of his "Pilots Watch". Apparently this constitutes a touch in their society. I stopped the sim session and we went outside for a chat. His complaint was I "touched" him, and my response was that in an aircraft if he did the same I would probably "touch" him with a fire axe, and remove his offending wayward uncontrolled appendage from the equation. FWIW, anywhere, anytime, I reserve the right as the responsible party to remove acts of sabotage from the program, and I can give less than a toss for the personal insult that may be implied by the recipients of tough love. :}

PS, quickest way out of THY apparently was to make a PA and call Istanbul by its old name... :ok: For a group happy to be peeved at the characterisation of the treatment of the Armenians (not to mention the more recent dealings with the Kurds) as something less than friendly (genocide)... there appears to be an underlying unresolved issue or two on identity.:ugh:

Great food, nice people.... lovely city. :)

[White Knight]

Quote:
...the Turks just would not accept that one of their pilots could have been at fault!

In much the same way as Americans at Boeing never admit to having any design faults in their aircraft. However, I think Captplaystation has nailed with:


Quote:
...the only frightening thing being that many of the same observations could be levelled at countless other carriers.

Like UK ones - I can remember being balled out by an arrogant, selfish, over-confident, know-it-all, impatient, ex RAF dwarf because HE overshot the stopping point as HE taxied in (longish story). But I'm afraid he was typical of the fast jet dross we had to put up with. Obviously, there were many good guys and fortunately some are still with us.



Seriously piltdown man. Why try to defend a useless and dangerous airline and culture with a PC-:mad: 'oh it happens from time to time in the UK' story????

The Turks are a mad bunch at the best of times. They fly like crap. The THY sims smelt of p1ss. They crash aeroplanes quite often.

Get over it.......

I'd rather get on any UK carrier than a Turk one. END OF STORY:ugh:

[prometheus_TK]

I am not a pilot or anyhow aviation related guy. I am a doctor, who is very much interested in aviation. I am truly sorry for interrupting a discussion between airline professionals, but, how acceptable is it, to call a whole culture and people living in that culture, mad, useless and dangerous? What does it tell about you and your culture?

As a person (a Turk :E), who is flying with Turkish quite often, I hope, people will investigate this thoroughly and seriously and come up with solutions. But guys, just please try to be nice and civil for people, who you are commenting on.

[aerobat77]

i do not know any actual guy who is flying for turkish so i will not comment explicitly for them but in general many carriers seem to have the unpublished policy that applying for a rightseat job you do not need to know much and will learn it with the years -so its crucial to accept bad pay, bad rostering etc. instead of demonstrating high level skills to get the job.

[MaxBlow]

I have been there for the interview as well and can confirm most of what capt.playstation reported on here. Although there seem to be quite a difference between the Boeing and Airbus fleet. My screening was on the A320
and made sense, no tricks no traps, very professional.

I did not sign the offered 1 year contract because I got my hands on a monthly roster before I went and have to say that these guys work fairly hard. Commuting was and probably is not possible.

Now, one has to see the big picture in Turkey and keep in mind that you can not (!) change mentalities. I would also never ever put my family on an Onur flight (past experiences) and during my time in Turkey I learned the following:

The system is sick. This is why I left. The CAA used to be corrupt, until a few years ago there was only one pilot source (air force). English levels are very very poor and it'll take another decade to improve. They're working on it and much has been changed already BUT most of the CPs and DOs are still from the forces and hire their buddies, wingman or whatever they call them.
TRE/TRIs have grandfather rights and train the next generation the old fashioned way simply because the don't know better.
I've seen guys switching seats after only one season after 22 years of saluting everything that moves in the air force.:ugh:

I will not list operational things here, although I could probably write a book about it:yuk:

I don't agree with White Knights (strong words!). I have been in the sim recently in IST (IFTC) and have to say that it's a state of the art sim.center. But again I agree with capt.playstation's comments on the AMS accident that if 3 pilots did not notice a 40kt speed drop on approach, why having pilots in a cockpit than?

To our Danish collegues I like to say that I think it's a good thing that you made your concerns public BUT you did this after your contracts have not been extended (all forgein pilots will have to go as I hear). They will say ' we did not extend the contract - now they're angry and talk about us.'
Shouldn't you have raised your voice (or leave) earlier if you think it is not safe? Conveniently collecting the pay and than 'make up things' after the end does not put you in a good light either.
I've been in trouble for speaking up in the past but know today it was right.

I hope that this will cause a wave of discussions in Turkey although it will be embarrassing for some.

Many will read this forum but will not contribute for known reasons.

Turkish people are to proud to ask for help, they're still living in a 'no blame culture' and (I repeat myself) it is changing but at a very very slow pace.

Turkey is much like Greece, Italy, Spain or France used to be.

[Stratobus]

Turkey is much like Greece, Italy, Spain or France used to be.

Well, I am telling it straight.. Turkey is no where near as bad as Greece for these macho men things..Yes is true that many pilots are ex Services, but they have to do 5 yrs in Civil avaition, good flying skills, not just daddy know some fat bloke in airline.like in Greece. Ok CRM with " older " Captains we are told is big problem, but younger ones, no so much big deal..problem is it will be many many years before the old guard retires in both pilots and management..but regarding ATC talking, they do make efforts to speak in " common language" English.. In Greece it is not ths case..

[captplaystation]

If you look at the totally inexcusable & dangerous bullsh1t that is "Ercan" control (Ha Ha! ) you don't find much excuse for either of the 2 nations you are discussing here.
Europe. . . HA !

[Soumneal]

I've been reading this discussion, which majorly consists of opinions and anecdotes directly from professionals, during my coffee break to my study for ATPL exams tomorrow. Disregarding some heavy and unfair expressions, I prefer to view and consider everything posted here in an objective way. However, as you can guess, it's still quite sad for me to read such negative opinions about Turkish Airlines, both as a Turkish citizen and a Turkish Airlines cadet.

I won't try to defend the company blindfoldedly (because I'm yet to begin my job), nor I'll support the lack of any constructive criticism which would be beneficial not only for the company but also the international commercial aviation (considering TA's widespread routes around the globe). With all my respect to the professionalism and experience speaking here, however; I'd like to remind everybody commenting here about the whole new generation of pilots on the way to Turkish Airlines and to the world's aviation.

I don't currently know much about my senior colleauges, but what I see here around me in my training is lots of hardworking brilliant, open minded pilot candidates. We are all "at-least" university graduates, who have succesfully passed a vigorious series of aptitude, language and psychological (not to mention health-related) tests which took almost an entire year. Half of us under full-time training in USA while the other half is being trained full-time in the company's brand-new training facilities in our country. Most of all, our progress is thoroughly monitored in both facilities and frankly speaking, I haven't seen any tolerance for failure or ineffectiveness in any of the training phases. These people (including me) are thoroughly and fairly selected, I can assure you on this as a prospective Turkish Airlines pilot who will be the first in his family to be in aviation.

As a second thought, reading all these stuff actually motivated me to study more. Wow! Thank you! :)

I'll be looking forward to share the sky and meet you to learn more from your experiences. Safe flight to everybody!

[Sandor]

:DI m fine with all critics..by all means, except those related with politics, :sad:it's not the topic here. And I would suggest the one who saw these irregularities and faults should report it to the company flight manager. Has anyone done this? I think no:eek: Then you can not be called as international professional pilot. Aviator corrects the other aviator without patriotic expectations.. It's a shame on all having one aspect critisism like a child.
Passenger is passenger...do you know how many from Germany how many from China you carry on board? Normally no! So if you are in the cockpit you cant see the faults from national perspective... if you do it you are in a big mistake..
Please report these irregulaties to the authority to take precaution or help to kick them out of the company .. so you can create a better job environment by yourself..:)
Thank you for all... have a safe one always..

[Warlock1]

Here are some facts for anyone wishing to work in Turkey and/or Turkish Airlines:
-You are a second (sometimes third) class citizen if you are a foreign pilot
-It is never Captains fault! It is the FO, plane, ATC or procedures that are at fault
-Being a pilot at Turkish Airline is tradition that is passed on from father to son. Anybody else is an outsider
-Most THY pilots are ex military. They still fly with that menthality and any pilot from a civilian background is considered to be a moron
-There is no teaching/gathering experience in the cockpit. There is just yelling and making you feel stupid
-You cant report your senior to the management. Nobody will side with a foreigner/outsider. Almost all captains have a God complexion.
-English conversations are non existent. The English exam is being done by the Turkish CAA which in itself lacks the knowledge of English. I've seen them fail Australians or British citizens, just because!
-The Turkish CAA is one of the most corrupt organization in the country. They can pass or revoke your license ot their own free will, making anything look like a fault. Nobody dares to speak against them. There is no other official organization that controls them cause they are one of the biggest source of income to the current AKP government.
-So many charges of corruption was brought againts the former head of CAA but as one can guess, he never had his day in the court.
-The Turkish CAA doesnt employ own staff based on compedance. They employ their staff based on who they know (called 'Torpil').

Examples are too many to list. My advice to anyone considering this country: DONT!

[cgtydzn]

do you really believe that Turkish cpt. said "no need to do preflight-before start-start-before taxi-before take off checklist" and soon later "shut up rookie, i can fly this thing with my d..k"..!! do you guys really really believe ? if you're a real airline pilot you must know that every item on this checklist is very very very important..so stop making rumors about Turkish pilots..i'm one of the Turkish pilot and i'm proud with our FTO education..and we don't have any training session like "how to control aircraft with d..k"..the 13 foreign pilot that has spoken to danish press must be jealous about Turkish pilots..it's because of Turkish pilots are more talented and if we lose our hands, yes we can control this airplanes with our d..k !! this is just a gossip that 13 girl has spoken that's all..have a safe flight !!

[exeng]

I can understand you being a touch defensive in respect of your country,people, and Pilots - particularly as some comments on this thread have been a bit unpleasant in my opinion.

However your statement is perhaps overstating your case ?

Sweeping generalisations of countries and/or cultures are I find mostly inappropriate.

[uniform]

To be honest I do believe it because I've witnessed the 'talented' Turkish Hocams at first hand because I was sitting next to them for about 2 years. Now 10 years later I can laugh with it and am glad that I survived most of it. There is a big difference between the old generation fighter pilots (:mad:) and the old generation pilots who have flown multi crew aircraft in the Turkish airforce, they are the real hocams. Let's say that in my experience about 30pct of the people I've flown with where real good blokes and very normal and enjoyable to fly with. The other 70pct however ....
The problem with Turks however is that if you criticise them that they immediately think that you criticise their whole nation while they criticise basically everything which is not located in Turkish teritory. I'm quite sure that the new generation is different because they have never been in the airforce and don't bring the 'attitude' with them so give them another decade (hopefully with no more accidents) and everything will be sorted out by itself. Let me however end on a positive note. I still love to go to Turkey on holiday because believe it or not I still have good friends in the airline industry over there but most of them have flown multi crew aircraft in the Air Force.

[cgtydzn]

i think you must read more carefully "13 foreign pilot that has spoken to danish press must be jealous about Turkish pilots. It's because they are more talented" i meant they are more talented than 13 gossip girl

regards

[Teddy Robinson]

yep ... some things never change... dear friend there are more than the "original 13" gossip girls on this forum, and they have been there for quite some time. Evaluate the merit of their posts over several years at your leisure, however they (we) are from a culture where crm rules the roost rather than little gods with stripes on.

We had a representative of the nation in question flying with us recently; thankfully a brief visit ... (friend of a friend ... usual thing)

His net contribution to the operation was to p1ss off everybody by ignoring SOP and inventing his own, demonstrating a total disregard for CRM, especially with the junior f/o's and engineers, insisting loudly that everyone should walk in line behind him at all times according to rank, like a little line of geese, except most of the cabin crew were somewhat taller than our be-striped Napoleon :rolleyes:

Naturally, he DEMANDED to to addressed as Captain at all times .... it wasn't pretty..... oh and he was from the AF and had never flown one of those prop driven planes ... so that's all right then :yuk:

[reivilo]

I haven't seen any tolerance for failure or ineffectiveness in any of the training phases
Isn't that exactly one of the problems that is being addressed by the expat captains?
In a good working and just safety culture it is important to have a tolerance for failures because every human being makes (a lot of) (minor) mistakes. The idea behind 'tolerating' these failures is because nobody makes them on purpose and the goal is to learn from them so you and other pilots will not make the same mistake again. If there is no tolerance for mistakes and you get shouted at every time you mess something up, you probably will become either too scared to act on your own without first asking/confirming everything with the captain. Or you will just do the same things, make mistakes (as all human beings, even the hocams), but you will have a lot of hesitation to report your mistakes or ask for verification, which makes the whole safety situation worse.

[captplaystation]

In the Turkish company I flew for, the purpose of checklists seemed to have slipped by most of the FO's, which leads me to believe the real problem was the (local) Capt's , or the training.
During the reading of a challenge/response checklist, if one hesitated more than half a second, or paused to perhaps hear a radio call for us/or some other distraction, most of them would just keep reading down the list without waiting the response.
How many times I :ugh: whilst trying to explain, you challenge I respond, if I don't, or I respond wrongly , you must either wait, or challenge me again.
This should not be required with supposedly qualified crew.
I once cocked up an approach at night into a desert runway, the one sat next to me ("supposed" to be pilot MONITORING ) clearly saw it all going for a crock of sh1t, yet said nothing. At the subsequent debrief, he could offer no explanation for saying nothing, & I truly was not a difficult person to remonstrate with.
In the space of a couple of weeks I had to take over 4 times on landing, on long runways in good conditions, & a previous life as a flying instructor ensures I am not one constantly covering the controls just waiting to grab them as soon as any deviation is identified. I have never flown with such a passive bunch, terrified of their own shadows, in most cases unable/unwilling to demonstrate any initiative, I am sure due to being browbeaten any time they opened their mouths in the past.
All in all, with the exception of a few very pleasant & exceptional guys, the majority were totally at odds with modern CRM thinking, and we all know who sets the mood /standard of operation/communication in the cockpit.
What I saw in the Sim during my Turkish Airlines assessment, & during my OCC for the other company, was like a throwback to a different era.
The only thing that will change this is the gradual retirement/replacement of the current LHS occupants with a new generation, but this takes decades.
Not trying to be offensive to our Turkish contributors, but I have to tell it as it is. Denial & blaming Boeing did no favours to how the outside world viewed your response to the AMS accident, a true professional knows just what a small part of that causal chain can be put down to a simple A/T failure.
Sometimes there is no nice way of putting it, but the general standards I viewed were not up to scratch for a company/country that sometimes claims to be European.

[aviator17]

Thank you very much for your words about Danish collegues, captain MAXBLOW...All the best...

[aviator17]

Yes, if we would know their names, maybe we can share some funny stories about them esp. from their LIFUS phases...But I do not believe that they show up...

[RoyHudd]

Check out air disaster.com/statistics and you will see that Turkish Airlines fatal accident rate is over 6 TIMES GREATER than any other state carrier in Europe. They are almost as unsafe as Egyptair, which is going some.

[Soumneal]

Isn't that exactly one of the problems that is being addressed by the expat captains?
In a good working and just safety culture it is important to have a tolerance for failures because every human being makes (a lot of) (minor) mistakes. The idea behind 'tolerating' these failures is because nobody makes them on purpose and the goal is to learn from them so you and other pilots will not make the same mistake again. If there is no tolerance for mistakes and you get shouted at every time you mess something up, you probably will become either too scared to act on your own without first asking/confirming everything with the captain. Or you will just do the same things, make mistakes (as all human beings, even the hocams), but you will have a lot of hesitation to report your mistakes or ask for verification, which makes the whole safety situation worse.

You're right; yet I didn't mean that we're trained by being yelled at or threatened (personally I can't tell without looking at my logbook how many attempts for landing it took for me before learning to touchdown smoothly :\). I must have misstated my point. Let me put it this way:

I'm currently getting my training in a foreign country (probably the most reputable one in aviation) among my compatriots/colleauges and obviously all of our flight instructors are natives to this country (not to mension every single speech has to be in English). Even though these civilian-oriented instructors too sometimes go a little bit tough in the air; there's communicative environment in our training cockpits most of the time. What I've tried to emphasize by this tolerance issue is that we are monitored and evaluated according to the internationally accepted standards of civil aviation training. As it is well known, these training standards (be it FAA or JAA) have their tolerance margins and we are subject to those, just like our future colleauges from other nations' airlines, getting trained here. Obviously no one's been kicked out of here after failing a single checkride.

On the other hand, one thing which is very hardly tolerated here during training is behavioural or attitude-related (not the flight, ofcourse :) ) problems. Students and flight instructors are encouraged to speak up and discuss their problems quite freely; but when it comes to disrespectful behaviour (which is not the single-sided "hocam" thing you've mensioned) proper disciplinary actions of varying degree are applied for both the students and the instructors, just like in every other flight school. Plus, if she/he has acceptable reasons, a flight student (as well as an instructor) may even ask for the change of her/his flight instructor. The bottomline is that, everybody here has to be communicative yet respectful to each other and, in my humble opinion, this is the essence of the CRM. And believe me, our guys being trained in Turkey are treated in the same professional principles with us.

As a person who's always trying to be open-minded, I'm not trying to claim Turks' superhuman talents in flying. The talent is everywhere in the world. However, against all those single-sided criticism; I wish to remind everybody that hundreds of well-trained, professional Turkish pilots are at the gates of the industry. Again I, as one of those, am always open to criticism; wishing to learn something from them.

Ps: Aside from ATC and air traffic experience in foreign airspace; our language tests are held by well-known independent international institutions, just like many other major airlines do.

[fdr]

"no need to do preflight-before start-start-before taxi-before take off checklist" and soon later "shut up rookie, i can fly this thing with my d..k"..!! do you guys really really believe ? if you're a real airline pilot you must know that every item on this checklist is very very very CIGZDOZENNNZ

Really.

1. Been there, witnessed first hand. Left. BTW the management barely understood the issue that is exposed by this behaviour, as you apparently don't either.

2. The reason that checklists are used is that humans have severe limitations on accuracy of memory in dealing with multitask situations. If you consider that all checklists should be able to be memorised and used from memory, I think you should fit right in into the B737 fleet at least at THY. Good Luck, we will just be watching from the sidelines or awaiting highlights in the funny pages.

This is not a bash a nationality issue, it is a problem that a particular system has evolving from it's problematic past, and which is fighting rather well to maintain a status quo ante. I am being very guarded about what I say re the program, what is occurring under the slight ripples on the surface are truly shocking, and I merely rely on my own observations as an air safety investigator in that respect.

The simulators were actually rather good in condition, other than the oldest of the B737 fleets which are barely fit as procedural trainers. The B777 is state of the art, and the guys running that program are good value. I have very good Turkish friends and they would love to see their system change, however they are aware that is it is in many areas of the world, change can be painful, and strong are the forces that oppose change. It was always a hope that A and also SG would achieve a change in attitude, that has not been observed.

As has been said before, there are good people in the program, it is the program that has issues changing the entrenched, self perpetuating non compliance that is so rampant on cursory examination of the program.

great food, and good people. (Istanbul is one of my favorite cities).

[5LY]

Soumneal

You are the future here. The younger guys who have come through the same or similar system as you are a pleasure to work with. I've worked with many of you.

The problem here and in many other airlines is the old military guys. They are a virus which will pass in time.

I see a brighter path for you as you progress through the system. Keep the smile on. You'll be fine.

[coolkiller13]

Hello everyone,
I am an TURKISH AIRLINES CAPTAIN and flying on B737 fleet for many years.
I will not participate the discussion and the accusations about THY on here because it is not my job and i might not be seen objective.
I am following the threads respectfully even the most offensive ones about the company and the people of Turkey.However i must say that criticising a company should be something different then assaulting the people living and working decently in a country and in the company as well.
And the issue about the cyprus is a political matter and i don't think we pilots have any business on politics.The Ercan Control is all about a recognition effort of a nation on international arena .and as a Turkish Pilot no matter it increases my workload i always obey the instructions given by Ercan and let Nicosia know.

[gorter]

i always obey the instructions given by Ercan and let Nicosia know.

Yet everyone else is told to politely decline any instructions given by Ercan. Nicosia is the only internationally (ICAO) recognised controlling authority for that airspace.

The confusion that is the Nicosia/Ercan will lead to a very serious incident/accident one day, and everyone knows it.

[captplaystation]

Anyone remember what happened when DHL met a Tu154 that thought he was doing the right thing, even though everyone else knew it wasn't the correct way.
Thank you to Turkish pilots for endangering the rest of us whilst transiting the airspace over Cyprus.

So, if Cyprus is a political matter that pilots have no business on, why do you, "as a Turkish pilot obey the instructions given by Ercan" if, as you stated they are motivated by " a recognition effort by a nation on International arena" despite knowing that all non-Turkish pilots who have read & understood their en-route guides , do not ?
So what is more important ? following the legal commands given to you by the only legally recognised authority for that airspace ? or following the illegal instructions of a "psuedo controlling authority" just because they happen to be Turkish ?

In this post you have merely reinforced the points that have been made throughout this thread.

[aviator17]

What about KLM 737 departed from taxiway "D" (AMS) by the way??? Everybody was very silent on that matter...Wondering the reason...and you???? You think that CL complete...don't think so...

[reivilo]

What about KLM 737 departed from taxiway "D" (AMS) by the way??? Everybody was very silent on that matter...Wondering the reason...and you???? You think that CL complete...don't think so...

My fingers are itching to respond to your ignorance... why don't you just name all incidents from any random reputable flag carrier and point fingers at them without looking at yourself first? :ugh:

1. The official investigation on this serious incident is till ongoing (Departed from taxiway, Boeing 737-306, Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, 10 February 2010 - De Onderzoeksraad voor veiligheid (http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/opgestegen-vanaf-taxibaan-2010011/))
2. After the internal investigation KLM launched a big campaign against complacency in the cockpit. Thus they had the guts to admit that the pilots made a grave error.
3. "Everybody was silent on that matter". Not at all. It raised discussion all over the community and amongst others on this BB it made it to an 11 page topic (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/405387-klm-737-t-eham-aeroflot-737-engm-taxiway-take-off.html?highlight=klm+taxiway).

In contradiction THY never admitted that their pilots in the AMS accident made a mistake and they blamed Boeing and ATC for stalling an aircraft on short final. :hmm: :yuk:

[paokara]

SOUMNEAL


very well said

I like your thinking

you will be a great captain

[woo hoo]

I believe these disaffected pilots released in-house safety documents to the media to substantiate their claims. This could be the worst outcome of their claims if THY decide not to share with the rest of their pilot force and deny any resultant learning......can't see anything positive for flight safety in any of this :(

[rapidshot]

thanks Soumneal, in very near future i hope not only the airliners but all Turkish Aviatiors will have the same understanding and approach , as one of your citizens i am really proud of you, thank you once again :ok:

[Avenger]

This thread is creeping more towards a di*k waving contest between Turkey and Cyprus.. this is neither professional or productive.. yes it's a forum and a place for debate,, .what happened to the original thread about " Dangerous Turkish Pilots"
I have worked with many, and undergone training by Turkish pilots and consider they are as " professional and talented" as any others.. the real issues the Foriegn pilots have is communication with management and the lack of ability to integrate.. surely they must accept responsibilty for their part? If I had to focus on an area of concern in Turkey generally it would be, FTLs..Having said that, if you accept the T+Cs of job, if it's not commutable, don't use it to become " current" and then moan. Without doubt if people have safety concerns they should raise them, but I really feel there is dual standards here.
If these pilots are that concerned they should leave,, go and work in China or India and then do a comparison...
These same pilots are happy to use staff travel and other benefits, take a tax free salary and live cheaply... perhaps it is they that cannot find other jobs on the doorstep to Europe..do not run with the fox and chase with the hounds or condem a whole nation of aviators, many of which have had their training done in Holland and Germany and passed DLR tests which other European nationals fail.

[plane geek]

Hello all,

I am a Turkish citizen and F/O on the 737 at the most popular company of this thread. First off I'd like to thank for all the constructive criticism brought about by the news story that will help with the wave of change we have been experiencing here. However, I had been waiting to hear out all the opinions before throwing in my 2 cents, hoping to avoid all biases. Which turned out to be a wise decision, observing the haste with which some colleagues rushed in to vomit their political and racist spiel that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Then there were quite a few who did have a myriad of valid points and no stereotypes but gave into painting a skewed picture by making gross generalizations. I'm sure most of those people come to think of themselves as civilized folks going through their daily routines, and probably could not have employed the same haste or tone face to face. They just happen to be a few examples of many out there in cyberspace who give in to the ease of bashing things they know or think little about, at the ease of clicks and keystrokes, which saves them the reality of daring to deliver their hate speeches in public. I cannot help but think their actual purpose in doing so is putting on a show for themselves, which they do not possess the guts to do in public. Call it ego issues, inferiority complex or whatever you will, but not the least courteous or civilized. Come to think of it most of these people could go on and on preaching about CRM, the gradient, professionalism and courtesy and yada yada yada. Yeah guys, we all see it in you!

For all the points brought up by the newspaper article and those colleagues who claim to have worked at THY, most of them hold. I have to point out however that there are some gross generalizations and accusations. I also cannot help but wish those people had raised voices while they were here with us instead of flaming about it to their domestic media. Yes we have plenty of old school guys here who "do not need checklists to fly", we have plenty who could improve their use of the English language, plenty of machoism and disrespect for professionalism, plenty of undertrained/underexperienced people who have slipped through cracks based on acquaintances, and so on, but they do not account for the whole. While plentiful in numbers and perhaps still seated at a few of the key positions in the company those people do not make up a significant percentage. Above all, things are changing. We talk of France, Italy, Spain and Greece having had to change their ways. So most of you know how sluggish and painful change is. I was not trained in Turkey and I have gone through somewhat of a culture shock getting used to flying with the occasional nutcase, maybe once a month. I do not think that attributing the presence of such people is doing the rest of us justice. Day in, day out I work with some of the most enjoyable and courteous people out there, Turkish or otherwise, I can only look forward to flying with them again.

I have to point out that I have seen the worst of some of the foreigners as well. They suffer from the same problems that Turks are blamed for. Yet I regret to see some of my colleagues making definitive statements on the thread, based on brief experiences or assumptions. If you've only been here for an interview, or a sim ride, or your friend told you about it, I don't think you should be joining the bandwagon so fast. I have flown with many foreign captains since they started joining and have exchanged conversations with probably twice as many. While touching on the fact that we do have idiots flying with us and going through our mandatory company gossip, they are glad to be working with most of us who are here to stay at THY. This in turn enables me to assess the credibility of some of the assertions made by those who say they have "seen it all"

[Serafim Kamoutsis]

I do not know if PA28VIKING is a prof. air line pilot ( Catain or Co-pilot ).
It is unfair to blame an air-line Company examining only particular accidents, that in all Companys likey occur !!

[Hotel Tango]

Thank you for your post plane geek. In it you admit to the following:

Yes we have plenty of old school guys here who "do not need checklists to fly", we have plenty who could improve their use of the English language, plenty of machoism and disrespect for professionalism, plenty of undertrained/underexperienced people who have slipped through cracks based on acquaintances, and so on, but they do not account for the whole. While plentiful in numbers and perhaps still seated at a few of the key positions in the company those people do not make up a significant percentage.

As one that has flown THY on several occasions that's more than enough information for me to now add the airline to my "no fly" list. Whilst the above examples may constitute a relative minority, I find this minority significant enough to make me feel uncomfortable about flying with your airline.

[exeng]

It is unfair to blame an air-line Company examining only particular accidents, that in all Companys likey occur !!

In my humble opinion the AMS accident is not one that is likely to occur in all companies - in all companies that sort of accident is possible, but not likely. I also do not think it is likely to occur in THY in the near future although it is obviously possible.

When an accident occurs we have to look into the 'why' it occurred so as to develop stategies to minimise the risk of re-occurence.

My own suspicion (based on the fact that I lived in Turkey for 3 years as a teenager) is that culture has something to do with the whole ethos of CRM and training etc in any Turkish airline.

Please note that by the above statement I am not saying Turkish people are 'bad people' , just that the way their culture has developed may not have been condusive to the best of airline operating practices. Turkey is not alone in this.

My own country (UK) has had some terrible accidents which perhaps may have been preventable had it not been for the prevalent culture at the time. (The terrible Trident crash at Staines may be one example - although we will never know for sure)

I think we have to be 'inward looking' and objective about our airline culture (very difficult to do) in order to improve.

It is intelligent behaviour to learn fom others when appropriate. I expect that THY could teach many of us a thing or two - but also THY ( and others) may be able to learn from other carriers.

Anyway - all the best

[Skipskatta]

Pressrelease from Turkish Airlines:

PRESS RELEASE
Turkish Airlines: We take every measure to ensure flight safety
This weekend, the Danish newspaper Politiken published allegations against Turkish Airlines, particularly regarding the language skills of the company's pilots. Turkish Airlines wishes to ensure all our passengers that the newspaper's writings are without bearing and that all our pilots are both verbally competent and well trained in all aspects of flight.
As the journalists have intentionally excluded relevant comments and corrections from an interview with Turkish Airlines' CEO that exonerates the company, Turkish Airlines must at this point clarify the matters to maintain the feeling of safety for all passengers.

CEO of Turkish Airlines, Temel Kotil, Ph.D., states:

- We strongly reject the allegations stated in Politiken. The conclusions drawn are heavily exaggerated and without bearing in the reality that our thousands of daily passengers experience. Every passenger and member of the flight staff travels safely with Turkish Airlines and it is unreasonable and against better knowledge to insinuate otherwise on the basis of an anonymous example.

Turkish Airlines consider the statements to be very serious, and the airline will do its utmost to unveil and to investigate what these accusations may infer.

Since 2005, all candidate pilots have been required to prove their proficiency in the English Language through internationally approved exams (TOEFL/IELTS/TOEIC). Turkish Airlines' pilots are furthermore subjected to a series of training programs authorized by the Turkish Directorate of General Civil Aviation, which is an authority under the European Aviation Safety Agency.

Temel Kotil thus explains that all passengers can feel completely safe when flying with Turkish Airlines:

- Flight safety is our absolute highest priority. We are uncompromising when it comes to the qualifications and training of our flight personnel. Every flight staff member is thoroughly educated and rigorously tested on an ongoing basis to make sure that both their flight skills and language skills are impeccable. Turkish Airlines takes every possible measure to ensure that our safety standards more than live up to flight authority regulations, which is one of the reasons why we are part of the Star Alliance network ™ and recipient of several awards in flight experience quality.

Turkish Airlines pilots' average working experience is above 10.000 hours for Captains and above 3.000 hours for Co-pilots. Even if the pilots' test performances are as good as industry standards, the pilots are obliged to take extra simulator sessions to achieve excellence.

Politiken's writings are based on anonymous statements from pilots. However, these statements are in direct contrast to the reality the pilots and flight personnel experience in their everyday work life and open communication amongst colleagues.

As Turkish Airlines, we can fully refute the allegations made by Politiken. The pilots at Turkish Airlines are both qualified and trusting in one another.
It's obvious that Turkish Airlines is an open and progressive airline where we communicate and evolve positively. Accordingly, we encourage every employee to make sure that they continuously undergo training programs to exceed industry standards on flight safety.

It is important for Turkish Airlines, both management and staff, to express their sincere concern of all passengers' safe travelling with their airline as well as their relations to authorities and to their partners, and to openly meet any discussions that the articles initially published in Danish newspaper Politiken may lead to.

[etrang]

Turkish Airlines wishes to ensure all our passengers that the newspaper's writings are without bearing

Hmm...perhaps they could get one of those pilots who can speak excellent English to edit their press releases.

[Hotel Tango]

Excluding hijacks and a ground incident which was not crew action related, I note the following accident statistics involving fatalities in the last 16 years:

British Airways: 0

Air France: 2 (I chose AFR because they've been in the headlines more recently too)

THY Turkish: 4

[latetonite]

And where did the captains then the extra 7000 hrs moving to the left seat?:confused:

[plane geek]

As one that has flown THY on several occasions that's more than enough information for me to now add the airline to my "no fly" list. Whilst the above examples may constitute a relative minority, I find this minority significant enough to make me feel uncomfortable about flying with your airline. Good for you Hotel Tango! I can only respect your decision. I work at the flight operations department not marketing.

[Rananim]

Inflammatory thread.You cant rate safety on nationality or race.The minute you try,youll get your comeuppance.You can attempt to do it based on airline and people do.Qantas has never had a fatality,nor SWA.But airlines never advertise their safety record because its asking for trouble.THY has had some accidents its true and they probably do have a steep cockpit gradient as do all airlines from the Orient.But before you cast your stone,dont forget that any crew from any corner of the world can screw the pooch.Humans are entirely fallible.

[Robert Jan]

Turkish Airlines wishes to ensure all our passengers that the newspaper's writings are without bearing and that all our pilots are both verbally competent and well trained in all aspects of flight.
:yuk:

Yeah, gear up shut up culture, lack of imminent stall recovery (THY1951) and shortage of self-criticism (always blame others) :ugh:

Carriers like THY are on my personal No Fly list :}

[Pali]

Just a small question. Let's say Turkish Airlines would suffer exodus of scared pax who would select another carrier. Who would be a (the) winner? Who is the main competitor at large? Or is there any local market where THY may be some tough adversary?

[Kirks gusset]

Turkish Airlines business will not be effected by these "rumours", the majority of the travelling public would not even read this stuff.
To play the devil's advocate, if you actually look at the stats: Accidents statistics : Fatalities by operator | Airfleets aviation (http://www.airfleets.net/crash/fatalities_airline.htm)
and:Airline accident ratings (http://planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm)
Turkish are by no means the worst, infact if I lack sensitivity and do it on body count, Air France is much worse..
Getting back to the thread, in my opinion, the worst CRM is in Greece with the " National Carrier", next Cyprus, then China.. Ok, the Turkish culture means that CRM can be hard work. having said that, if we look at the " aviation" element as a measure, the domestic airports these guys operate to and from would make make European pilots take deep breaths. How many THY flights have landed or taken off on taxi ways or arrived at the wrong airport on major international destinations? The Turkish Authorities have just carried out a review of safety at it's own airports and I understand that the carriers are trying to adopt the recommendations outlined. Perhaps Europe should do the same

[M609]

How many THY flights have landed or taken off on taxi ways or arrived at the wrong airport on major international destinations?

THY no, but one of the other Turks, PGT tried at ENGM in 2005 ;)

[B737NG]

I am sure there are some facts behind and not all is fiction. There is smoke?... there is a fire somewhere.

There are Pilots out everywhere, not only at THY, they cannot express themselves in English and due to intensive training (Bakshish?) they can make it to Level IV somehow.

One of my loved scenarios in a Loft would be a fully funktional Airplane and a pregnant Woman aboard who has all of a sudden a early delivery in the 29th week. Let some Guy´s communicate that with the Ground to have the appropriate Medical assistance on the Ground STBY after arrival. As I have spoken with many non native English Pilots around the Globe, it could be a challenge at least.

Now back to THY: If all why is the Doctor so concerned that he needs to comment that article in a small Country so intense? Another thought... Is it political ? religious ? There are many thoughts running thru my brain at this very moment when I am thinking back who published Salman Rushdy? Was it not the same Country ?.

I better stop it now because that is not only food for thought, that can be fuel to the fire. The House is burning for sure and with the recent attempt to get rid of the "yabanci" within the operation it is a too sensitive subject.

[drfaust]

As far as I am concerned the biggest aviation disaster that was directly affected by CRM has occured in Tenerife, so personally if I were Dutch I would strike a more modest tone regarding such topics. (Toch RJ?)

I've personally flown in Greece and can imagine that their mentalities (THY vs OA) are the same (Although their fatality rates are not), because as much as they don't want to admit it; they're very similar in their culture (southern macho) and it does reflect in the cockpit. Very nice country, very nice food and people, but still a long way to go in the CRM aspect of the operation. Turkey is not alone in this area so our colleagues in THY shouldn't feel too disenfranchised. Let's not forget, not all accidents are due to pilot error.

As far as I understand it both Olympic and Turkish are doing a lot to improve their CRM situation. It's not going to happen over night, but I'll happily take my chances both with OA and THY.

[rapidshot]

As a Turk my opinion is,
There are constructive discussions as well as the racist ones but welcome, we are used to hear those ,
Let me share my two observations with you as a passanger,
1. Flaps extended in the first quarter of the takeoff run ( brakes, deacceleration followed by extension of flaps, then takeoff, thanks god, runway was long enough), years ago,
2. One and half years ago, during taxi yabanci pilot made an announcement with his perfect accent , bla bla, there is a technical problem, we will be here 15 more minutes waiting for the technic guy, so you can use your mobile phones while waiting, but following was weird , someone from the cabin following the captain spoke into mic, bla bla, due to company rules mobiles are not allowed, and only in Turkish, she tried to override the Captain,and succeded,
But, almost 50 years i have been living in this country and we all love our countries we are born like anyone else, making critics and racism is likely different things,
Sorry for my broken English, please do not highlight my grammer mistakes,

[Otterman]

What an asinine and irrelevant comment drfaust. The tragedy that occurred in 1977 (34 years ago) brought about a revolution in all practices within that airline. Since that time that mainline airline has not had a fatality. The list of accidents for THY in the past 34 years makes for very sad reading, and sadly there are many airlines (some considered very reputable) that can be put on that same list.

In relation to the THY accident in Amsterdam the very legitimate question can be asked: what lesson is this airline taking away from it? They have had enough accidents to make one wonder how many will it take?

THY is the fastest growing airlines in the region, and that brings with it many challenges. The former and current pilots that have sought publicity are concerned enough (some undoubtedly care enough, and some probably have other motives) to try and bring about an environment that allows this growth to occur safely. If the end result helps to provide an impetus to this very necessary change it will be a good thing.

[Hotel Tango]

In support of otterman's post, in my opinion the major difference between KLM and THY is that KLM learned and took effective action from that tragedy (a long time ago). THY don't seem to be learning or attempting to take any significant and effective action at all following a series of fatal accidents.

[bettigio]

I worked for 2 years in Turkey as a First Officer "Yabangi" :)
I've seen both good and bad...and for my sake most of them were good.
The only CRM problems I had was with an old ex-military cpt.
They are a very proud people. As long as I wasn't hurting their pride I was fine :)
The big problem I noticed there was the lack of SOP's. Each cpt has his own way of conducting a flight and how to operate. I was the one responsible of keeping everything in the loop and safe.
For me it was a very good and maturing experience: I increased my diplomatic skills with those bad CRM cpt's and I learned better how to manage stressfull situations in cockpit:)
For the rest I think Turkey is a beautiful country, I keep going there for vacation, good weather, good food, beautiful beaches...

[J-Class]

Mrs J-Class is Turkish by origin and travels to IST several times each year. I haven't let her fly on Turkish Airlines since the Amsterdam crash. Nothing in this thread changes my view. (For what it's worth, I also try to avoid Air France and any Russian-certified carrier - but these last two aren't an absolute rule).

[Green Guard]

In relation to the THY accident in Amsterdam the very legitimate question can be asked: what lesson is this airline taking away from it?

..apparently that made THY reduce Turkish military jocks influence in flight operations, and begin hiring many "Yabanci" (non Turks) pilots.

[Otterman]

The outside guys are there because of the growth that they are going through. No other reason. And these pilots will be gone the moment they are no longer required to meet the growth target. The unions will make sure of that (this is perfectly understandable, that is what they are there for).

Many of these foreign pilots have decades of managerial, TRI and TRE experience at some of the World’s best legacy carriers. But they are only there to fly the iron. They were not brought in, as is being implied, to change the company culture. This is perfectly understandable. You don’t see Air France trying to sort out their issues with outside talent.

Many of the world’s top carriers have gone through these types of transitions and have done it with their own people. But make no mistake, it hurts, and requires a radical shift in thinking. It also means that the pilots who can’t make the transition will have to leave the company. It all starts with management. And I am not sure if THY has the political independence at the managerial level to allow it to do what is required. It is much easier to stick you head in the sand, but in the long term you will pay the price.

[Obi_Wan]

The post by Kirks Gusset shows a complete ineptitude with regard to basic maths that should form the basis of any pilots ability. The link in the post covers fatalities in pure numerical values. Not per flight, not per 1000 passengers, so any of the larger carriers, or those with high passenger numbers will be skewed.
:rolleyes:

[drfaust]

It might be asinine and irrelevant concerning this topic, however it is in its place regarding the previous post by the person i'm referring to. No one is implying that the Dutch did not learn from it, KLM is a fantastic airline.

The thing I am saying is that it wasn't all gold and glitters over there either, until a radical change of thinking was introduced because of that disaster. The price has been paid and it has been learned from. So let us at least remember why and where it (CRM) all started in the first place and try to keep arrogant attitudes away from aviation.

The god syndrome was the root of the problem and men are prone to it, whether they're Dutch, Turkish, French or from anywhere else.

[LN-KGL]

THY no, but one of the other Turks, PGT tried at ENGM in 2005

And the Aeroflot A320 succeded taking off from twy Mike on 25 February 2010. The captain was a CRM instructor at Aeroflot, 38 years old, no military background and pilot flying. Even the best pilot can make mistakes. :uhoh:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Anybody can muddy the water with statistics, or point fingers at ancient accidents that occurred with other flag carriers to prove how they're "not the only ones".

The issues raised in the "politikken" are concerned with the here and now and they are to do with English language, CRM skills and safety culture. These things aren't directly measurable, like lives lost or $damage caused, but they are no less important in terms of measuring the unmeasurable "how safe is an airline?" In fact they are the most important of all, because they indicate the present and near-future risk levels, as opposed to statistics which by their nature are rooted in the past.

Unfortunately because those things are judgments based on values, as opposed to quantifiable numbers, it's much easier to dismiss them or declare people expressing their concerns as gossip mongers / trouble makers / racists / whatever.

Senior captains don't speak out about this stuff in papers without very good reason. I've never flown Turkish but I don't think I will any time soon, based on what I read.

Surely the best way for them to put this to bed one way or the other, would be to voluntarily submit to a large, no-holds-barred independent safety audit from their fellow Star Alliance members, kind of like Korean did with Delta back in the day (which seems to have brought a great improvement to that airline, in terms of hull losses at least compared to their terrible '90s).

[PA28Viking]

New stuff from Danish new paper Politiken:

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolitiken.dk%2Ferhverv%2FECE1482901%2Finstruk toer-i-turkish-airlines-saa-pornofilm-under-test-af-piloter%2F)

The headline translation is not that good. Should read "Instructor in Turkish Airlines watched porn during pilot test"

[B737NG]

Just to remind you Guy´s here.. Yabanci´s are already reduced. The promise to extend the contract from one year to additional three was not kept. Many Guy´s recently got either no extension or just one more year. A clear sign inside THY that they are not welcomed in many ways. F/O´s been "told" they are not longer needed as Turkish Guy´s can do the job now. Exactly as forseen earlier here, just to fill the gap !

Istanbul great City, good food, good people, no doubt. I had many nice Colleagues but that is not what the Thread is all about.

[GAPSTER]

Allegedly came very close to being banned from UK airspace not so long ago...I'm uncomfortable with this concept of THY eventually 'paying the price' and as this price would inevitably involve fare paying passengers I will refrain from putting myself and family on the bill.

[Northbeach]

Even if that leads him to stall a perfectly serviceable aircraft on approach, for example? Unbelievable.

During recurrent training we briefed and flew the NG accident into Amsterdam. I was shocked at how difficult the scenario was to fly out of – even having briefed it beforehand. I am not interested in rearguing all the aircraft (multiple write ups regarding a failed radar altimeter) and crew failures leading up to the accident.

Duplicating the scenario in the simulator was an “education” for me.

With the trim rolled back and the airspeed so low when one mashes the power the beast wants to stand on her tail. It took both hands shoving on the yoke to keep her from going vertical, momentarily I was frozen by what I was seeing that I was overloaded (even after having briefed it). For me it wasn’t salvageable until I “remembered” the trim. With both hands shoving the yoke and the trim rolling away she began to behave like an airplane again. I was so shocked by what I was presented with I insisted on flying the same maneuver three times. If you haven’t actually flown it I would strongly recommend you do-just for the “experience”.

For many reasons; I say the following with regret and respect some were self induced, that crew faced a very difficult scenario. When I first read the report I was puzzled why the crew did not “just recover from a nose high stall”. Now that I have flown the scenario I appreciate the difficulty that they faced in a very different way.

You pilots and managers in the rapidly expanding nations are in an enviable position in that you have the opportunity to take the best of what has already been learned by the manufacturers and legacy carriers and improve upon it yourselves. The challenge is being willing to change, recognize and then not repeat the mistakes we in the “west” have already made.


For example KLM/Pan Am; it is not enough to bring that event up only to serve as a rebuttal to somebody in the West criticizing a CRM or steep cockpit gradient. “Look your boys killed a whole bunch of people, so you are not better, therefore shut up and do not disrespect us” may be emotionally satisfying but not to apply the lessons learned is truly tragic.

The Canadians have a wonderful safety publication that runs one of my all time favorite sayings: learn from the mistakes of others, you will not live long enough to make them all yourself.

To those of you laboring at Turkish, and other carriers around the globe, to improve the carrier by every means possible, including painful self critique if necessary, you have my upmost respect. Best of luck to all of you!

[Prober]

I have spent a few years based in Turkey. Indeed I agree, great country, food etc but that is not what this is about. I have been on the third seat and had to scream “Climb, Climb!” as, in the landing lights, I saw a pole with a ceramic insulator carrying the wireless aerial of a small farm pass just below us, this as a result of an old fashioned captain telling me to speak when I was spoken to, and not before. You can imagine the atmosphere on that flight deck! I have observed a captain ignore instructions to continue downwind until advised and thus cause considerable chaos at a major international airport. Also, approaching another major capital city airport at 5,000ft still at 300kts I have had a response from a trainee captain to whom I have posed the question as to what the controller will say next – “I don’t know. I am not the controller.” I have had to take control at 500ft when an F/O insisted on flying an IMC VOR approach with MAP displayed (although there was always a map shift at that airport) and I have witnessed actual violence on the flight deck from an old fashioned ex-military captain. I could go on but I expect you have all got better things to do. All these incidents were reported and acted upon. They were nothing to do with Turkey or THY and they ALL occurred in a well known western legacy carrier – so be careful if you want to throw stones!

[punkalouver]

All very nice stories, but in the end, look at the accident rate. I believe the record of Turkish Airlines will speak for itself. If a three times as large carrier has had twice as many incidents, which one is safer?

[ElectroVlasic]

this is just a gossip that 13 girl has spoken that's all

i meant they are more talented than 13 gossip girl

It was said it'll take a decade or so for the cockpit gradient to decline.

How long will it take for the gender gradient to decline?

[Green Guard]

Just to remind you Guy´s here.. Yabanci´s are already reduced.

Just a 2 simple questions:
1. How many non local language speakers fly in any EU country National Airline ?
2. How many EU born Turkish pilots fly in any EU country ?

[B737NG]

The point is: THY startet the recruitment process. During interviews and screenings the Pilots been told they can expect a long term comittment and a career progress. Now they are out and have to look for jobs again, most of them with Families, not a nice situation to be with.

I am often on the side to warn people that the grass is not greener on the other side. Broken promises do not help the coulour either.

I am not looking into Nationalities, I am more concerned about the humans, regardless where they are from, Africa, America, Australia or Austria....... same counts for Iran, India or Ireland as well.

When we are in the Sky we breathe the same Air, we have Pilots and Aviators.

[fdr]

THY has some good people in it, one hopes that they are given the chance to make the changes that are needed without the backlash that normally occurs. Those trying to change the program, know who they are, and should know they are respected for what they attempt to do. Whether the system will allow this to be successful is the big question, and the standard form of rhetoric by the CEO is consistent with head in sand positioning which may not bode well....

[afhelipilot]

How many EU born Turkish pilots fly in any EU country ?



For sure, there are few and are not being treated as Turks, only as the citizens of the particular country.That's the way it should be. Lately had met with the friends who are the managers of one of the main European airline company to which I had applied at previous and resigned and we talked about their member who is at the police department ( criminal ) on his own request and we could not say anything bad about Turkish pilots flying for the main European airline at all. If there are foreigners living in Turkey, means Turkey needs them, and they should implement some new safe techniques or a safe strategy or share the knowledge. Currently, I see everything from a different angle now, ( being after two catastr.) and I really think that Turkey had helped the others a lot .

[inflightrefueling]

Ignorance, facts, racism, prejudices...

Unfortunately this maliciously created topic represents all above. It even means very much if such statements released in a paper called "politikken". :D

[inflightrefueling]

I know many expat colleagues happily flying for this company. TK has around six hundreds of expat pilots at the moment, and just a bunch of them having attitude problems here creating a big mess for the others.

I don't know if you ever flew with TK, or you're just one of those aiming your guns at it, we all would be enlightened if you shared your unpleasant memories in this company. I read the others'.

[AIRBUSTRAINER]

Greeks sound very much like the Turks actually..
Work with some of them and some of the lesser capable people I have seen in a LOOOONG time!!!!

[M-ONGO]

Greeks sound very much like the Turks actually..
Work with some of them and some of the lesser capable people I have seen in a LOOOONG time!!!!

Airbustrainer, wouldn't be a Sri Lankan would you by any chance? English is certainly not native to you is it?

If you are a trainer and indeed the above is true, perhaps it is a reflection of the training department where you work.

Sri Lankan sound like they've got a good safety culture....

From your other posts http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/453801-1000-reasons-not-join-srilankan-pilot-3.html

Pot/kettle? Please let's keep this thread on track about Turkish.

[latetonite]

In the mean time, any private pilot I know would shove the thrust levers forward in his piper Seneca, or any twin for that matter, much earlier, if this scenario would happen. And I do understand the complications in an airliner. It is basic flying what is lacking. Increasingly replaced by push button SOP`s. One can only be happy that modern airliners fly inherently by themselves from T/O to landing. You watch that happening for 3000 hrs and your term comes up for an upgrade, right?
As you cannot measure (read regulate) airmanship, it is easy to see how someone follows Part A, section 8. Even system knowledge is secondary.
I hold my heart for the future.

[Mega]

Yea, i´am with you late.

How about good old airmanship and the basic instrument scanning technic.
speed is everything during approach, but i know the problem.

I used to fly an older version of my current bird without A/T and those days you had total control over approach speeds ( scanning). When you use A/T all the time you depend on it to work flawlessly all the time and of course you sometimes loose scanning of speed, espessially when you think the damn thing works normally.

But either way these guys also had VSI and how three guys in the front don´t react at that altitude is not good to say the least. You have the thrust/speedcontrol in your hands at that height???

[airbuspilots]

You will know what the truth is. The only fleet which appears immune from problems is that of the B777 crew. They don't live in the real world of short/medium haul crews operating B737 and A320.

THY is the least professional, most dangerous airline I have had the misfortune to work for, just my opinion or that of a large proportion of crew interviewed and employed on in 2010, well reading the replies and comments posted it would seem that most are of the opinion there is a lot wrong with this airline. How it can have been voted the European airline of the year is incomprehensible for so many reasons, delays, professional standards (or lack of them), general belief that if you are a Turkish pilot you can do no wrong, I wonder then how three died in Schipol in what for most of us was a perfectly serviceable plane in good weather conditions.

You have only to sit in the cockpit with a THY Instructor (perhaps he was?) and watching him consume two packets of cigarettes in just two, two hour sectors, taxying with a cigarette, wheels up...cigarette in mouth, so and and so forth. Having never smoked even one cigarette and understanding that it was not just against THY SOP's but the country's laws too, one has to ask the question is there anything they wouldn't do and the answer is NO.

Talking with a safety pilot from the Boeing fleet, it appears that a 737 is just another fighter, just a little bigger, but with all the same facilities for having fun. Airbus fleet seemed a little less dangerous, but is there room for improvement...YES. Will there be any improvement with present management structure....NO! Was there anything that was enjoyable about flying for the the airline that says its "we are turkish airlines, we are globally yours", simply NO. The lies, the unstable roster, the days off which were infringed by unrealistic scheduling and lack of concern for an individuals right to have an undisturbed day off if you were lucky.

Of 400 ex-pat crew employed in 2009/2010, just ask the question how many are still there? If this was such a great opportunity would you not expect to see percentages in the high 90's? Well today as far as I understand it from talking with colleagues like me who left as soon as 1 year was up, there is less than 20% left, and they cant wait to leave.

Will THY suffer another crash, incident? Without any doubt, with a culture of 'I AM THE CAPTAIN and more macho behaviour it is a forgone conclusion. Yes the reports from European airspace support the fact that THY have more level busts than any other major carrier, it is a pity that these authorities don't do something. There is enough evidence out there to support these claims, lets not wait for another Schipol or worse!Well done THY you made sure I'd never want to spend another day in Turkey or ever want to fly on a plane of yours even if it means me being delayed days, I'd take any other carrier.

[silverstrata]

Never mind the 'old-guard', one of the bigger worries with Turkish aviation is the number of new f/os coming out of their training schools with insufficient skills to fly a Cessna. Within the airlines, many of them are banned from touching the controls, so I hear. Sad, but true.

It looks like many new recruits are being passed through their training on a wink and a nod (and perhaps a brown envelope), and leaving their instruction to the airlines. To give them their due, most of the airlines appear to be giving these laggards the heave-ho, but this just shoves the problem onto to ever smaller airlines. It is a sad reflection on the Turkish CAA, who don't appear to be addressing this training issue at all.

[SVoa]

Sorry to drift off topic for a second.. Dont THY put you through some difficult and strict aptitude testing? Do they do these tests at all? Do they do them only for low hour entrants? Whats the deal?

Can someone shed some light on what the selection process for an F/O consists of?

[Green Guard]

many of them are banned from touching the controls, so I hear. Sad, but true.

ooops... can you please say again...which countries, actually... do you refer to? : :ouch:

[avocado737]

@Northbeach: I must say that I totally agree with you. Training the situation in the sim was an eye-opener for me as well. It is a situation that is really hard to get out of, espescially when it comes as a surprise. I also tried a few times and it's true you really need full elevators AND trim, which is something that you probably wouldn't get right instantaneously, if it came as a surprise.

However it was not only an eye-opener in a way of how to get out of this situation but also about how they evenutally got into it.

I knew what was about to happen, however we tried the whole thing out without looking at the instruments as if we were explaining something to the guy on the observer seat.

It is absolutely not understandable for me how they ever got there in the first place. You feel that something is wrong long enough before it is too late.. well however I guess I should have written this in another topic, shouldn't I?

For the rest of the topic here I must say, I'm not at all surprised anymore the AMS accident could happen.. but it seems there are some young cadets who are in the mood for change. Let's hope you will not have to test your luck too much!

[aleech]

I don't know what bad experiences Stratobus had, and I am not competent to argue airline matters with a scheduled pilot, but as a PPL holder with just over 200 hours (most flown in Athens TMA area in Cessnas or Pipers) I can definitely state that Athens Information (130.925 or Athens TMA 124.025) have absolutely first class English. I have never had any problem with them - neither in understanding the instructions, nor in their pronunciation and command of English (unlike Tatoi Airfield, where English skills are often at a much lower standard and which is Military).

However I would also like to commend Megara (which is also GA and Military) on the consistent high level of their ATC.

Generally speaking, apart from Athens I have found good English language skills and professionalism at Corfu, Thessaloniki and Skiathos but I have occasionally had poor ATC at Heraklion.

[caulfield]

Concur 100% with what is alleged in this thread.I wouldnt fly with any Turkish airline either as a pilot or passenger.And I can think of many other countries whose airlines I wouldnt trust either.And no its not racist.Its being honest.

[stallfail]

I was reading your statements about the safety issues at THY, … and was a bit irritated by the way it goes (fight Turk’s vs. the rest of the world)

Fact is THY has a horrible aviation safety record , with six write offs in the last 20 years…..

How comes ???
1) Fast growing market /airline (with different aircraft types/philosophies), unable to cope with the huge demand of well trained and experienced staff within a necessary time frame.

2) Civil Aviation Authority, not really compliant with EASA/FAA standards and rules ( culture issue)

3) THY maintenance with partially suspended EASA 145 approval (there is not a single valid existing Turkish 145 approved MRO), THY flight ops run by former top gun individuals.

4) The company culture (politically selected managers/superiors who are not qualified/able to understand or deal with the requirements given by the industry – including English language competence)……

Is this a Turkish culture issue ???
No it is not !!!!!, you can find it everywhere in the world, where government based companies are run by prosperity orientated , shareholder value increasing corporate managements , who do not face any authority nor watchdog …………………….

[A-3TWENTY]

Concur 100% with what is alleged in this thread.I wouldnt fly with any Turkish airline either as a pilot or passenger.And I can think of many other countries whose airlines I wouldnt trust either.And no its not racist.Its being honest.

DO you avoid Air France also?

[Ottoforce]

This gives good view of mentality se
Brutally Yours - YouTube
:\

[MaxBlow]

Otto, whatever you tried to say with 'inane shpeele' I wouldn't give to much on the local and common use of a simple title.

'Kaptan Pilot' is the Captain of an aircraft. Ahmet/Paul/David or in your case Otto Kaptan is the other guy. As strange as it might sound to you, this is simply the way it is. In other countries they use the title Doctor/Prof./Judge/your honor/Officer/Detective/Chief you name it...
If it bothers you that the F/O makes an announcement and introduces himself as 'Kaptan' than you might want to be looking for a new challenge somewhere else or learn Turkish and do it yourself.

I believe they do have other, more important things to take care of. Like pilot fatigue, the right to strike (see above), CRM issues, flying insane schedules etc.

Never mind (nicht sauer sein!)
:ok:

[dignified]

Indeed, when presented with a list of VIP's from ESB/IST recently, the Cabin Chief made the clarification that apart from the Kaptain, there were additional 6 VIP's on-board, one of them, a member of parliament.
In Turkey anyone can be a VIP, from security guards to virtually anyone who wears a tie and polished shoes. I do not mean to stir contention here, but the President of the Union in Turkey told THY management not so long ago, that the they did not and I quote: "have the faintest idea of how to run and airline. They have no idea not even on how a kite flies". end of quote. (Todays Zaman) July/2012
Most foreigners are not even approached or consulted on at least the lamest Q?, hey Kaptain, were your procedures any different from ours? is there something "WE" proud and imbecile local pilots can learn from your former procedures?
I mentioned before, and I remind the distinguish group of professionals again, THY and Turkey is a Chauvinist society. Nicolas Chauvin venerated Napoleon Bonaparte, Turks venerate their beliefs to an obnoxious degree.
By the way, I suggest future announcements in Turkish to be made by the F/A, so that way she is doing a fine job, "On Behalf of the Captain", not a mere F/O claiming to be the "Captain" when in essence they cannot understand the difference between "being", and/or "pretending to be".:eek:

[guclu]

As a pilot flying for Turkish, I also recieve some VIP lists but it is just an info for the whole crew regarding who is on board. Do you need to do anything extra for VIP list ? NO ! It is just an info. So what is the point for your post ?

Some of you asked about FO selection in previous posts.

To be an FO you have to have a university degree and take the DLR(Deutches Centrum fuer Lutft- und RaumFahrt) test and Turkish HTA group test. When you pass both you are a candidate.

You have to have a TOEIC/TOEFL test score that is above limits.

Most of them take the type rating course in Airbus or CAE managed courses in EU.

To be honest there is place to go forward. Yes. But the company is on the move. A lot has changed since I joined the company.

It is not possible to change the direction of a big ship so quick.

The instructors receive training from Lufthansa Training (LFT) I think for the last 3-4 years. THY is paying for this process that an other eye is deciding regarding instructors. Also a lot of PIC training has been given by LFT.

Best Regards

[Fluke]

Have heard 17% been banded about ?
Also that flight time limitations may revert to one ER 24 hr layover per month ?
Have seen lots of contracts issued longer tha one year, but only for non European licence holders, who I think are no longer being issued validations.

Just on the side. Got to love the bulletin warning about increased solar activity and the possible effects on fly by wire aircraft and navigation. No mention about the poor old passengers and crew !

[hetfield]

@Otto

Nice vid.:D

Unbelievable this clowns managed crap is member of star alliance.

[guclu]

There was no legal strike but there was a legislation change which was going to be voted on this day of illegal strike.

Is it lawfull in your country that the union sends SMS messages at 11PM and says tomorrow we will all be sick and will not be fit to fly.

THY did send also SMS and mail saying that there is no legal background and people obeying this instruction will be fired.

All the pilots (including expats) were present for their flights but a lot of cabin attendants did not go to flying and beleive me only few flights were made that day from Istanbul untill afternoon.

I was going for my flight and the union did try to stop me from entering the airport. I sad to them "hey this is not legal. If there would be a legal strike things would have been different."

I think this video is prepared by the union which in my honest opinion did use innocent people for their interest.

The union could make other activities rather than not letting the aircraft fly.

I was reading a topic regarding cheap pilot utilization in Norway. There, the pilot union chief sad it is illegal to make a strike regarding this issue.

I am a pilot flying for THY and not a manager but I just wanted to reply so that you see this issue from both perspectives and not only unions.

[PenTito]

Very recently attended THY selection process. All six of us EU expats did not pass the sim phase, including three TRIs, one TRE/TRI and one Line Trng Cpt (all A320). Two clowns turned up, only one spoke some English and he said they were not flying any more but just SFIing. The very short brief: to fly manually, no FD, no AT, some turns and some approaches (the bird was allowed).
The sim was operated by the silent one (he would not reply to my radio calls), under supervision by the other one. The scene was Ankara, with Cu clouds placed on the final, one on each side: impossible to fly a stabilised approach. The repositioning was 1mile before the Loc at 8 miles, also for the single engine cases. Some of us were going around, some landing. No de brief, just the release in two days. Nice. :rolleyes:

[captplaystation]

Similar experience 4 years ago, after the Sim assessment I was actually a bit sceptical as to whether I wanted a positive or negative response :*

In the end, the month during which they said they would respond passed (for me & numerous others) with NO response. I was actually quite relieved that they absolved me from making the decision to possibly reject them.

Count it as a lucky escape (although I do appreciate that it is difficult to see it that way until you find alternative employment)

[Muchheavierthanair]

I've just found this thread, so this ground may well have been covered already.

I flew for Birgenair (see wikipedia), a Turkish charter airline operating a 757 (among other aircraft) for a while in the 1990s. I felt at the time they would crash something fairly soon, and they did - the Flight 301 in February 1996.

The biggest single problem were the local captains, who were mostly accidents waiting to happen.

It's worth digging up the CVR transcript for Flight 301 to listen to the FO pleading with the captain to lower the nose and bring the TLs up from idle (the captain had a faulty ASI (blocked pitot) which was progressively reading higher as the aircraft climbed). The captain ignored him, lifted the nose higher and remained at idle until it was too late to recover. The aircraft stalled from around 8000 feet (from memory). The captain had also ignored the two serviceable ASIs.

I had a similar experience (among many others): Captain's ADC failed mid-Atlantic and the aircraft started behaving fairly oddly (oscillations in pitch). Other two sets of instruments normal. Captain stared at his instruments, which were behaving extremely oddly. After a short but decent interval (I had learned from previous incidents) I suggested he select alternate ADC. He said: "what's that?". I explained. He did, and the problem went away. He looked for ways of avenging this insult to his knowledge/abilities for the rest of the trip. The FO on the Flight 301 didn't intervene because he didn't dare - another problem for operations in that region.

[RoyHudd]

Turkey, as with most Far East states, all Arabic countries, and all African nations plus the South and Central American countries, suffer from the same malaise of "Captain knows everything, do not interfere". A dangerous but prevalent non-CRM culture. Alitalia had accidents in the 90's relating to this problem as did Swissair.

So it is not fair to pick on the Turks alone. Turkey is a backward but developing country, and is doing its best to catch up with Europe, in aviation terms at least.

[Muchheavierthanair]

@Roy Hudd - I agree. Except that the problem is exacerbated (my estimate - very greatly) if the captain owes his direct entry to the left hand seat in a big jet to his previous senior rank in the air force, where for many years he was in a desk job. In countries where the military has considerable power and senior officers can demand jobs from the airlines (I saw this first-hand), then the authority gradient on the flight deck is just one problem of several (the others include lack of knowledge and ability). I don't think Swissair and Alitalia had this type of difficulty.

[captplaystation]

Think you got it in 1, in my (fortunately short) time working for (another ) Turkish carrier I discovered 2 disturbing facts. . . . FO's will just let everything go to a can of worms confident in the knowledge that you (like the local Capts) will jump in at the first opportunity to salvage it all. . . how many times I asked "what ARE you doing ? you are PF & I don't recall saying "I have control" (although by this stage I usually had to anyhow by default)

The 2nd, & rather worrying, fact was, if you screwed up, NO WAY would they say anything. I had one slightly alarming incident where PM MUST have seen all was not well, when I finally noticed myself, & extricated myself from it, I did ask "was that OK for you ? " of course, it wasn't, so my next Q was " Why the F didn't you say something to me ? ? ? ! ! ! " well, no answer forthcoming, and that (unfortunately ) IS the answer. If operating PIC in Turkey, just assume you are single crew, & all will be OK thereafter.

[PenTito]

Well, the A320 fleet chief is reported to be very anti-foreigners inspite the request from above to employ pilots. So, he sends two expired, barely English understanding SFIs to send us all home. I am glad it finished as it did.
Roy, I disagree that THY has the right to go fru the mistakes others went fru before (kill people) in order to learn already known. CRM started developing in the sixties.......

[blind pew]

Royhudd
What swiss air accident in the 90s?
Certainly the Athens over run but that was in the 70s and the same time that a major British carrier was having lots of accidents and incidents.
Especially relevant was a management idiot who stayed in the job despite a move to chuck him out.

[Avenger]

Some confusion with the reality here, three recent FOs, all ex F16 Pilots, one F16 Instructor for 10 years, none enter as DECs, not allowed..infact there are two ex Generals flying as FOs as well, no CRM issues, quite decent blokes ( and women) really. If you look at the banking and investment system in Turkey as well as the growth in aviation, Biz Jet, Cargo and Pax it is difficult to describe it as a backward country, intact in many areas it puts Europe to shame. OK FTLs are severe but Pilots earn enough to have a really high standard of living compared to the punitive tax regimes in the EU countries. One of the new Scandic FO's described the NAS contracts as " worse than Ryanair" and came to Turkey.
Try working in Asia if you want bad CRM and Captain God syndrome.