The dark side of Dubai

[711]

The dark side of Dubai - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)

[kotakota]

7th April 2009 ? Get with it man , this is sooooo old hat.

[vfenext]

Ancient history.

[av8tordude]

On note...The article is old, but what has changed since then? The author presented an unbiased view of life in Dubai, but does bring the situation into question...who's contributing to this inevitable collapse? How long can this be sustained?

For these people (Emiraties), life is much better than what they had before. And rightfully so...ITS THEIR LAND! No matter what your opinions are, they aren't doing anything different that the rest of the modern world has done in the past. Tap resources from other countries to achieve a better life for themselves.

The one thing that does concern me are the human rights violation that seems to be ignored.

[Sciolistes]

Its a funny old world.

Anti-Slavery - Forced labour of migrant domestic workers in the UK (http://www.antislavery.org/english/campaigns/previous_actions/forced_labour_of_migrant_domestic_workers_in_the_uk.aspx)

[KangarooFlyer]

Check this out: UAE is filing arrest and extradition red flag notices with Interpol at several multiples of other countries, per capita - 30 times as much as US, for example. Despite its small size, UAE is one of the top filers of Interpol red flags. And it's not the people who have ripped many people off or embezzled millions who they are going after - it's average expatriate workers like us who didn't pay a credit card or other small-time bill.

It seems that UAE is abusing the Interpol system in an attempt to use Interpol as its international collections agency. If you leave UAE and you haven't paid one of your bills, they convict you of fraud, in absentia, and file you as a serious international fugitive with Interpol!

No civilised country is doing this, and no civilised country will extradite you to UAE for not paying your credit card or DEWA bill, but if your red flag pops up when swiping your passport, you will be detained and have to explain to the judge why you should not be deported because of a commercial dispute: defaulting on a commercial agreement or debt is not "fraud" and extraditable in most countries. Interpol exists to stop human trafficking, money laundering and serious crimes, not to collect credit card bills for Emirates NBD Bank.

How many billions have these people ripped off from investors, lenders, other countries, etc. - and now when they don't pay you and you go home, they pursue you through Interpol with a fraud warrant? They are abusing the system and the workers in far mores ways than thought.

Here's the commentary on this issue - there's even an organization to try to help get victims of this scam out of UAE jails. If you Google, you will see a number of stories popping up on this topic:

Dubai?s Interpol Abuse (http://www.detainedindubai.org/Detained_In_Dubai/Dubai_Interpol_Abuse.html)

[Sciolistes]

Dubai definitely has issues,with laws interpreted loosely and enforced strictly. But I just hate crook stats. Dubai's population is estimated at over 8m. Also the notion that the UK has only 7 fugitives makes these numbers ridiculous and not worthy of further contemplation.

[BigGeordie]

Population of Dubai was just under 2 million last time I checked. There must be at least 7 people in the UK who did commit serious fraud during the property boom and really should be doing serious jail time, but looks like a shoddy piece of journalism.

[Jet II]

The Johann Hari debacle (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/16/johann-hari-debacle)

[Jetaim]

How any western educated men can in anyway defend slavery on the 21st century? It really amazes me. I suggest to all of you Dubai apologists to spend a day in labour camp in Jebel Ali and share a working day with a bangladeshi worker in July with 49 C and 99% humidity under the scorching sun. Then think again. Think about the fact that in a civilized place the same worker would have a real salary, paid leave, his rights protected by a union, his civil right protected by law ,a real house and a family and not 140 USd a month, no leave, his passport confiscated, a room in a concentration camp and his family 2000 miles away. Many countries had lot of immigration from poorer countries around .Now most of this people are part of the society, grew family, started business, their kids are in schools. Dubai is impossible to defend if not by imbecils.
It is the perfect place for self serving idiots with no morality or ethics if not their ( cheap) wallet. The funny thing is that many lost money on the very properties built buy modern slaves and this comforts me a lot as it makes me believe that justice, at the end, do exists.

[Capetonian]

As the slavery and hypocrisy of the Dubai regime continues, it is good to spread awareness. If people stopped going there and stopped flying on their airline, they would eventually be forced to change. I'd rather visit a hard line Islamic country than go to Dubai. From choice, I'd stay well clear of both, but the idea of going to Dubai on holiday sickens me.

[Wizofoz]

Captonian,

Any idea where your shoes or clothes are made?

Do you make sure you only buy Fair Trade food?

[Capetonian]

Wizofoz :

Sometimes there are choices, sometimes not. I exercise choices where possible and I avoid buying produce from (e.g.) China and Israel. I have never bought 'designer' labels.

To an extent, everything we buy is produced by some kind of exploited labour, and other than making our own clothes and food from scratch, there is no way to avoid it, but only ways to minimise it.

I do buy free range and Fair Trade products where they are available. To a degree, we all have double standards. I eat veal, but I detest and refuse to patronise establishements, which serve Foie Gras.

I also hope that I will never set foot in Dubai or travel on their airline again. However miniscule the effect of that is, it means I've taken a stand against oppression and hypocrisy.

I don't have a problem with alcohol, or prostitution. What I have a problem with is the hypocrisy whereby tourism to that place openly permits both, in contravention to Islamic law, and yet people are singled out for contravening the Islamic code as and when it suits the regime.

[bringbackthe80s]

Capetonian I might agree with you, in fact I do (except for the fact that I believe that there always is a choice).
But what you are getting into is an endless discussion, and to be honest you would hardly be able to support the point you are trying to make.

Yes there is a lot of unfairness going on in the places you mentioned. But it is no different from any other western country, it's just more visible because on a smaller scale and in a shorter period of time.

If you (if we!) were living from the products of your little strip of land and avoid any consumer product, than you could talk. Because I suppose you don't, then unfortunately you are a part of this like everyone else.

In fact the people you mentioned working with these extremely poor conditions, are forced to do that because they have nothing in their countries. And even working 12 hrs at 50 degrees is better.

Ever thought why their countries (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc etc etc) are so poor? And who are the main contributors to this?

As I said this discussion is endless and has so many edges, but unfortunately the basics are pretty straight forward and quite clear if you look at the world's economical/political system...

[Capetonian]

The fact that conditions might be worse in other countries does not give others the right to exploit brutally people who come from those countries. What should be happening is that wealthier countries should be attempting to improve conditions in the poorer ones. That too is an endless debate ....... and going there ends up with accusations of 'racism' so I won't!

Yes, you are right, bringbackthe80s there probably always are choices, but they may be unacceptable. This morning I needed some avocados for a dish I planned for lunch. The only ones were Israeli. No choice? Yes, I did without and made something else. A couple of months ago I made a choice not too fly on the cheapest (by far) airline - Emirates - when I went home. That choice cost me £2000.

Coincidentally, I have just seen this is today's Daily Wail ..

Deported from Dubai... for working without the permission of her husband | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072622/Deported-Dubai--working-permission-husband.html)


In Dubai, it is an offence for a married woman to work without her husband’s permission...........

She said: ‘It is a law but it is rarely enforced. I spent £6,000 trying to win the immigration case against me but in October I found out I had lost.

‘I could have tried to appeal but I didn’t have any extra money and I had been advised it wouldn’t have done any good.’

Double standards?

[three eighty]

A couple of months ago I made a choice not too fly on the cheapest (by far) airline - Emirates - when I went home. That choice cost me £2000.

Capetonian I applaud your morals but next time why not fly Emirates, save the £2000 and then donate it to a charity that specializes in human trafficking / slavery. A win ,win for everybody and a far more pragmatic approach.
You could even hold some of the cash back for the Israeli Avo's.

[Wizofoz]

...Shall we talk about conditions for indigenous Africans in Rural South Africa?

Were you in favor of the boycotts on South Africa during Apartheid?

[Capetonian]

...Shall we talk about conditions for indigenous Africans in Rural South Africa?
By all means, if you have something to contribute on that subject, please do so.

Were you in favor of the boycotts on South Africa during Apartheid?
That's a loaded question. You are asking me if I was in favour of boycotts intended to bring down apartheid. There is no simple 'yes/no' answer. What I would say though is that most South Africans of all colours were better off under apartheid than they are now. You and others will doubtless disagree, but then I would question whether you have first hand knowledge.

[Wizofoz]

Yet you're happy to sit in judgment as to whether the employment opportunities for unskilled workers here in Dubai is advantageous to them.

Suppose you were successful at stopping the exploitation of workers in Dubai, do you think they would be better off? Would they thank you ae they went back to the abject poverty of their homland, after being replaced by more qualified workers attracted to the higher pay you brought about?

As you note, the world was successful in pressuring South Africa into ending Apartheid- yet you seem less than joyous about the results.

Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of the treatment of sections of the workforce here that are hideous, as was the treatment of many people under Apartheid, but you actually think boycotting Emirates is a positive step?

[Capetonian]

As you note, the world was successful in pressuring South Africa into ending Apartheid

Your words, Wizofoz, not mine. Don't twist my statements to suit your motivation.

I am not joyous about the results. Should I be? Very few people are. Have you noticed how the Peter Hains of the world have slipped back under the stones from whence they came?

It may well be that some of those workers would be worse off if they didn't have the employment opportunities of Dubai, but that doesn't make it right to exploit them. I made a previous comment that efforts should be made to improve conditions in their own countries.

I also know that there are workers in Dubai who are subject to a lifetime of slavery because they can't afford to leave, nor to live decently, nor to send money home. I realise this does not only apply to Dubai, but Dubai is the topic of this thread.

Obviously you are living in Dubai, no doubt earning good money and in great comfort, and yet you are happy to throw stones at me because you assume I supported and benefited from apartheid. We are both as bad as the other.

three eighty A pragmatic approach, you are right, but I would not fly on Emirates if an alternative were available.

[Sciolistes]

Think about the fact that in a civilized place the same worker would have a real salary, paid leave, his rights protected by a union, his civil right protected by law.
Civilised place - hah!

Granted, the situation for the poor in Dubai is pretty rough to say the least. In fact the situation for the majority of the planet is pretty rough. At least living in Dubai you stare into the face of poor who have no choices in their lives each day. That is a damn sight less sanctimonious and hypocritical enjoying my lifestyle and belongings, delivered to me through slave labour in a distant land, from the moral comfort of a sofa in the UK.

To be perfectly frank, the Dubai slavery thing seems to be something journos used when they ran dry of ideas. There is no more slavery in Dubai than any other part of the world that isn't Europe, US or Canada. Indeed Europe, US and Canada have their issues swept under the carpet, largely unreported with little political will to resolve. Sounds almost similar if you ask me.

Indeed, as per my link up above. The working conditions of many domestic staff are just as bad in the UK as they for maids in Dubai (for example). The record of abuse and confiscation of passports seems to be a real problem in the UK too, as is the fear of those abused immigrants in seeking help from the Police. Give that, it is obvious any Western nation would be barely any different if it had the need. If there is no real desire to deal with the issues of the underclass in the UK, then what chance would they stand if they were economically important?

[Wizofoz]

Actually, I think the stones started from your side of the fence, there, Captonian.

Look, I agree that much need to be done to help the plight of exploited workers and poor people in general worldwide- no where more so than on your continent.

Indeed, much has improved since that article was written, largely due to the UAE knowing it needs to clean up it's act or lose a lot of the international prestige it requires if it wants to engage with the rest of the world.

No such advancement in Saudi, though, as they don't CARE about international engagement. They just keep shipping out the oil.

So is it better to bring the UAE into the International arena (and, therefore, spotlight) or leave it up to it's own devices in isolation (which wouldn't hurt the local population one bit)?

[KangarooFlyer]

Population is defined as all residents. From "Guide2Dubai":

"The UAE population was estimated to be 8.19mn in 2010, out of which, only less than 20 percent constitute UAE nationals or Emiratis. The rest of the population, are expatriates. The net migration rate of the country is 22.98, the highest in the world

Among the expatriate population in the UAE, 23% are non-emirati Arabs and Persians, while more than 50% are from South Asia. Nearly 1.75mn are Indian nationals residing in the UAE, which makes them the single largest expatriate community in the country. The other major groups include Pakistanis (1.25mn) and Bangladeshis (600,000). The rest one million of the population are from other parts of Asia including Iran, Philippines, and Sri Lanka. The others are from other Arab States."

UAE population 8.19mn, Dubai population 1.87mn in 2010 (http://www.guide2dubai.com/info/uae-population.asp)

[White Knight]

I suggest to all of you Dubai apologists to spend a day in labour camp in Jebel Ali and share a working day with a bangladeshi worker in July with 49 C and 99% humidity under the scorching sun. Then think again. Think about the fact that in a civilized place the same worker would have a real salary, paid leave, his rights protected by a union, his civil right protected by law ,a real house and a family and not 140 USd a month, no leave, his passport confiscated, a room in a concentration camp and his family 2000 miles away.

You bleeding heart you:{

You mean; he could stay in Bangladesh working under scorching sun in 120% humidity and get **** all pay... Why, Jetaim, do you think these people flock to the GCC? $140 per month is more than the average annual wage in Bangladesh I imagine...

And have you seen the damage that unions can do? I was a member of one once (BALPA). Biggest waste of money in my career!

I don't condone the treatment by the people here! But the migrant workers DO have a choice!!!




But 'they were lied to' I hear some of you say... Well, naivety is no excuse!


And before casting stones - maybe some of OUR governments need to sort out various slave-trades in our own backyards, such as young girls from the Ukraine and Moldova used in Western Europe as sex slaves:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Jetaim]

WK who are you trying to convince? Yourself or the reader of this forum? Because in the first case that would show a little sensitivity which after reading your acritical and honestlly quite bovine support of EK would be a surprise Do you have a conscience ??? Or is it folded in your wallet?
The substantial difference between the Eastern european sex worker on the street of a western city and the Bangladeshi worker is that the sex worker is exploited by an illegal organization. She has still the chance, as many did , to go to a police station and denounce her exploiters. In the Bangladeshi worker in case it is the Dubai police ,the very Government, to keep him enslaved. I remember reading somewhere the first hand story of an indian worker's recruitment. Fake promises on salary and leave and once he was in Dubai and found out that the situation was way different his passport was gone. I think the most recent and closest example of such a form of organized istitutional enslavement practices dates back to the 30s,40s .The nazi concentration camps (and not only that aspect of that doctrine ) probably inspired and still inspires some of your dish dashed friends.

[White Knight]

WK who are you trying to convince? Yourself or the reader of this forum? Because in the first case that would show a little sensitivity which after reading your acritical and honestlly quite bovine support of EK would be a surprise Do you have a conscience ??? Or is it folded in your wallet?
The substantial difference between the Eastern european sex worker on the street of a western city and the Bangladeshi worker is that the sex worker is exploited by an illegal organization. She has still the chance, as many did , to go to a police station and denounce her exploiters. In the Bangladeshi worker in case it is the Dubai police ,the very Government, to keep him enslaved. I remember reading somewhere the first hand story of an indian worker's recruitment. Fake promises on salary and leave and once he was in Dubai and found out that the situation was way different his passport was gone. I think the most recent and closest example of such a form of organized istitutional enslavement practices dates back to the 30s,40s .The nazi concentration camps (and not only that aspect of that doctrine ) probably inspired and still inspires some of your dish dashed friends.

I don't need to convince anyone amigo! The fact that 200 workers get on every aeroplane out of India, Bangladesh and Pakistan for the GCC sums it up!

As for the Indian worker who recieved fake promises and a disappearing passport. Hmmm. Not so different to those poor young girls ensnared in the sex trade in Europe........ And the Indian worker doesn't get RAPED:ugh::ugh:

Do YOU have a conscience? Or are you just stupid:{:{:{ Do your brats like cheap Nike shirts, or cheap crappy Man U shirts? Guess where they're made!! Cheap sweatshops in Chittagong most likely:rolleyes:

PS - Was I supporting EK in my post?

Fond regards and love
WK

[White Knight]

your future wife will be driving down Shk Zayed Road in her Land Cruiser, texting her pals back in Manchester.

Oh SI... You mean my current wife of 15 years:ok: And nor do we use the jolly old mobile when the wheels are in motion... Call us old-fashioned and all that!

And it's a Patrol, not a crappy modern LR.

Keep smiling sunshine:}

[White Knight]

And now SI - to reply to your other nonsense:


Pilots.... Pprune and various other independent sources of info
Migrant workers....PpMigrantworkers?? no other independent sources

Pilots......Reputable or at least somewhat reputable hiring agencies
MW's..... local scumbag, slave-traders lying about job conditions

Pilots.... the ability to leave if they so choose
MW's.... can I please have my passport back

Pilots.... the financial ability to leave if required
MW's.... can't leave even if they had their passport because they have not been paid in 6 months

Just how much freedom of expression do you think these guys have in their own country?

Have you not seen them having the crap kicked out of them by their own police in the streets of Dakar, Bombay, Lahore etc in the news? Even queueing for tickets for the T20 cricket gets them smacked around the head!!!
Some of you on this forum are incredibly stupid beyond belief:=:=:=

This from someone who simply doesn't care about other human-beings. Subjugate those you can!!! Especially if its to your benefit.

Oh SI! Another nice libellous quote from you - on top of the 'you must be a crap pilot', 'your CRM is crap', 'you hate people' kind of crap I expect from you! FYI I don't subjugate anyone, nor do I condone it! However, the reality of the situation of these people is beyond your grasp! Have you tried feeding your little kiddies bark when they're hungry? (That's assuming said kids are yours of course:\:\)

[White Knight]

YOU suggest that my CRM is bad and I hate people

You are far more stupid than I thought because you can't even read SI. Try again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Subtle threat'? No! You have just sent many libellous posts my way! the fact that I don't give a stuff is neither here nor there!

Therefore you are condoning and even admiring the tactics of another country

Admiring? From where did you get that idea?


YOU suggest that my CRM is bad and I hate people, is exactly the opposite of reality. You never cease to amaze me WhightKnight. How could you possibly try to TURN my concern for all human-beings...... into bad CRM and a lack of concern for other people?


Again SI - read what I wrote.......... The first time around, or are your quotes incomprehensible to you?????????

[White Knight]

By the way SI - do you have an issue with my wife?????

[harry the cod]

Whight Knight / sittingidly

It appears recently that whatever ME forum I turn to, the end result appears the same. An immature, emotional and overheated slanging match between the two of you.

Whilst I'm all for people expressing different viewpoints, this level of bickering serves little purpose other than ruin these threads. Sort your differences out via PM's and please leave these forums for adult discussions, not personal penis competitions.

Harry

[RoyHudd]

Funnily enough as a Brit, I consciously avoid buying any fresh produce from S.A, and ditto their wine. And I have no problem with Israeli fruit and veg. Never saw anything to buy from U.A. E. Capetonian is correct though. We all can make choices.

(I wonder if he knows the source of some components inside the device he wrote his words with?) :E

[Capetonian]

Funnily enough as a Brit, I consciously avoid buying any fresh produce from S.A, and ditto their wine.

Might I ask why? I might guess that prior to 1994 you thought you were helping the poor downtrodden oppressed blacks by boycotting South African products, but post 1994? I'm sure you have a very good reason, please share it.

[Earl]

There might be something to this Interpol thing in DXB.
The owner of Midex airlines uses this to threaten the pilots there constantly.
For leaving in the middle of the night without the required 30 days notice in the contract.
But what is seriously wrong about this is the ones that left had their contracts changed severely long before the expiration date with terms and conditions.
I worked there for 3 years,,had valid UAE license, GCAA medical,Employment/labor card etc.At the end of this contract they came out and said we dont pay the end of contract bonus because we operate it the free zone and dont fall under UAE labor laws.
Yet if you leave and piss this guy off he will use the labor laws to come after you.
Midex still owes me over 11,000 USD according to the labor laws.
Yet the GCAA shut Midex down for flight time and cover up breaches 1.5 years ago.
Something seriously wrong here with this picture.
I left the correct way all debts paid credit card etc,, yet still was cheated on my final salary with full and complete contract completion.
If I had to do it all over again would be much different.
As I think interpol has much more greater concerns than chasing down ones that owe the banks there , the banks there not so honest anyway.
I worked in KSA for saudia 2 times many years and never seen anything like this.
Always left there with more money than I expected at the end.
Never did they try and cheat me,like in the so call civilized UAE.
Yet the labor department and GCAA allows these bottom feeders to continue operations there.

[journeyman]

Capetonian,

Interesting take on life in Dubai and your consequent moral stance on EK and the UAE in general. Admirable.

I think I'm going to apply your rationale and boycott SAA, based on your exact principals.

Thousands of innocent people murdered annually, highest rape rate in the world and a government reluctant to tackle the highest incidence of HIV on the planet.

That, my friend, is nothing short of gross human rights violations.

[Capetonian]

journeyman

Do you think for one moment I care if you boycott SAA? Whom do you think that is going to help, or detriment? They'll probably just about survive witout your business.

You don't need to tell me about thousands of innocent people murdered annually, highest rape rate in the world and a government reluctant to tackle the highest incidence of HIV on the planet as we are all vey much aware of it.

Do you think we all voted for the bunch of criminal thugs who are now running the country? There is an implicit message in your statement that we are responsible for, or in favour of, the current regime.

[journeyman]

Capetonian,

As EK will survive without yours.

Perhaps you should clean up your own backyard before pointing fingers at everyone else's. Whether you voted those people in or not, you are still a resident, yes?

In the interests of keeping the already very narrow SA tax base intact, I strongly suggest you start worrying less about the hypocracy in the Middle East and concentrate more on stopping your countrymen from culling each other.

[Capetonian]

Perhaps you should clean up your own backyard
If you could come up with a solution as to how that could be done, several million people would be profoundly and eternally grateful to you, so let's hear your solution.

Whether you voted those people in or not, you are still a resident, yes?
That depends on how you define 'still a resident' but I fail to see the relevance. I still spend a lot of time there and still regard it as home, if that is what you mean.

I strongly suggest ........... you concentrate more on stopping your countrymen from culling each other.
As above, your suggestions on a postcard, please.

I don't really think you have the knowledge to opine on this, but if you do, then I am looking forward to your views. On the other hand,, whilst I don't claim to be an expert on Dubai I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the Emirates, mostly - unfortunately for several reasons - in Dubai.

[Trader]

I am guessing SA had a lower crime and rape rate while under aparthide. Perhaps they should go back to that to keep some posters happy :)

[Capetonian]

I am guessing SA had a lower crime and rape rate while under aparthide. Perhaps they should go back to that to keep some posters happy

Your 'guess' is probably correct, but statistics were concealed and manipulated, albeit to a lesser extent, under the Nats as they are now. What is certain is that people felt safer in those days than now.

I expect the second part of your comment is meant to be sarcastic, but let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it wasn't.

Very few reasonable people would want to revert to apartheid, although it had its merits from the perspective of the ruling 'elite' and those who benefited from it, it was a fundamentally unfair system.

What we did have in those days though, was a functioning infrastructure and a government which knew what it was doing - although a lot of what it was doing was wrong. We had accountability to a greater extent than now, and there was less crime and insecurity, less unemployment, and less xenophobia (ignoring for the time being the idiotic 'homelands' policy).

There is less freedom of information now than there was under the Nationalist government, and whilst racism as such no longer has an official place in legislation, it exists under a different name, BEE, or affirmative employment, and is more virulent and insidious than it was before. It is also destroying the power blocks of the country's economy by placing people in positions they are not fit to occupy, purely because of their lower reflective index and regardless of competence, education and experience.

Perhaps those of you who are so ready to snipe at those posters who, like myself, maintain that the majority of people in South Africa were better off under the old system should do a little homework before going on the offensive.

It's interesting to see how this has gone off topic purely because my username on this forum is 'Capetonian'. If I had posted my comments about Dubai under the name 'Fred Bloggs', or 'Maserati Fan' none of this sniping would have taken place. Talk about judging a book by its cover, but no doubt we are all guilty of that to a degree.

[journeyman]

Capetonian,

Allow me to tell you what I know:

You currently paint yourself as a disillusioned moderate. Although you didn't vote for the ANC in '94, you were willing to give them every chance to succeed in government.

Prior to '94, you might've voted Nat, but it's doubtful because of your inherent dislike of the apartheid system. However, you didn't dislike it enough to relinquish your priviledged lifestyle, schooling, job, etc.

And you certainly weren't about to relocate to a shack in Guguletu with no running water or electricity, as a show of solidarity with the masses. You just tut-tutted about the plight of the vast majority of the population, but hey, the infrastructure is the best in Africa, so what are they complaining about? In short, you did nothing.

You are either unwilling to admit or incapable of understanding that the current situation in the country is largely of your own making.

Now, if I'm right about my assessment of you - and I'm pretty sure I am - what gives you the right to occupy the moral high ground on any human rights issue?

P.S. Apologies - you did do something. You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'. Well done on that - well thought out. I can't understand why it didn't catch on with those ungrateful people.

[Capetonian]

You have made incorrect assumptions and placed your own twist on what I said.

Allow me to tell you what I know:
Wrong, it's what you think, pure supposition. You know nothing about me.

You currently paint yourself as a disillusioned moderate. Although you didn't vote for the ANC in '94, you were willing to give them every chance to succeed in government.
No, that's your inference. I have never voted anywhere as I have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political.
I was not 'willing' to give them a chance to succeed. There was no choice. I expected the worst. I got it wrong. They they got off to a slower start than I expected but are now making up for lost time.

Prior to '94, you might've voted Nat, but it's doubtful because of your inherent dislike of the apartheid system. However, you didn't dislike it enough to relinquish your priviledged lifestyle, schooling, job, etc.

I also might have been a Martian. However, having an inherent dislike of apartheid (where did I say that?) would not preclude one from voting Nat as they got a lot of things right. Also, there weren't many choices realistically.

And you certainly weren't about to relocate to a shack in Guguletu with no running water or electricity, as a show of solidarity with the masses. You just tut-tutted about the plight of the vast majority of the population, but hey, the infrastructure is the best in Africa, so what are they complaining about? In short, you did nothing.
You don't know that I didn't go and live in a shack, but as it happens you are correct, you got something right. As a show of solidarity it would have achieved absolutely nothing other than, as you call it, a show. Pointless.
You don't know where I lived then, in the past, or now.

You are either unwilling to admit or incapable of understanding that the current situation in the country is largely of your own making.
And that would be why?

Now, if I'm right about my assessment of you - and I'm pretty sure I am - what gives you the right to occupy the moral high ground on any human rights issue?
As you are not right, the second part of your statement is redundant. Nevertheless, I'll answer it. Anyone has the right to speak out about any human rights issue. You may think I have no right to criticise you for beating your wife if I beat mine, but that does not deny me the right to criticise your action, it just makes me a hypocrite.

P.S. Apologies - you did do something. You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'. Well done on that - well thought out. I can't understand why it didn't catch on with those ungrateful people.
Don't apologise, it's patronising in the extreme.
This is the part I really don't get.
You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'.
Officially recognised as four independent ones, there were originally 10, but the number is irrelevant as well as debatable. I referred to to the homelands policy as 'idiotic' but you still accuse me as if I had a personal responsibilty for it, or approved of it. From whence did you deduce that?

Whilst trying to avoid making this personal, I have to say that you come across as being somewhat bitter and twisted for some reason. Perhaps you could elaborate as you may have had some personal involvement with South Africa.

[Wizofoz]

You don't know that I didn't go and live in a shack, but as it happens you are correct, you got something right. As a show of solidarity it would have achieved absolutely nothing other than, as you call it, a show. Pointless.


Absolutley the same can be said of your boycotting of Dubai and Emirates.

But as that only costs you a little money, it is a pointless gesture you choose to make, and then boast about on the internet to show us all how moral you are....

[Waste Management]

I have never voted anywhere as I have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political.

In that case, as far as I am concerned, you have given up your right to have an opinion on anything political. People around the world fight and die for the right to vote, and in a democracy it is your duty as a citizen, as well as your right, to vote.

You criticize Dubai, which probably would be quite different if people there had the right to vote. Yet you are against the concept of voting.

I, for one, have no desire to hear your opinion if you think it is beneath your dignity to vote. How do you expect anything to be more to your liking if you won't vote? Very sad, coming from a nation which has much of which to be proud - especially its non-violent revolution which was effected at the ballot box.

[Capetonian]

Wizofoz: At my age, I'm above 'boasting'. I don't need to!

Waste Management:

In that case, as far as I am concerned, you have given up your right to have an opinion on anything political.
As far as you are concerned ...... I refuse to vote unless I can vote for a candidate or party which I feel will benefit the country, people, or myself. In the absence of that, I won't vote. Nor will I vote in what is effectively a one party state.

It's not 'beneath my dignity' to vote, that's the way you choose to see my refusal to do so. Furthermore, you don't even know whether or not I have the right to vote there.

Indeed, SA has much of which to be proud since 1994, but sadly it's slipping away as the ANC's power becomes entrenched and politically it moves the way of its neighbour to the north. The benefits of non-violent revolution are gradually being eroded as corruption and nepotism creep into every aspect of life, and crime, racism, and xenophobia increase.

P.S : comment removed by Capetonian

[journeyman]

Capetonian,

So you have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political. Easy to say when the system you grew up in clearly favoured the paler demographic. No attacks of conscience with that, I'll bet.

I wonder if you would've been less inclined to sit on the political fence, had the cosmos decreed that you pop out of the womb in the middle of Tembisa, say.

But the real kicker for me was when you actually mentioned that apartheid was not all bad. Come on, man - I gave you an out by suggesting that you had an inherent dislike for the system, but you didn't take it! Trust me, it's not a good look for you.

Less freedom of information now than under the Nats? Surely you jest. Mandela was incarcerated 7km off Blouberg Beach for over two decades and nobody knew what he looked like, or what he stood for. Or what the ANC's doctrine was. Dissidents slipped in the shower and fell out of the windows of John Vorster Square at an alarming rate. Newspapers were summarily shut down. Etcetera, etcetera.

And you have the gall to outraged by Dubai's hypocracy?

[Capetonian]

journeyman Thank you for the response. You obviously know what you are talking about (I am not being sarcastic) but have views diametrically opposed to mine. That's fine - it makes life interesting.

I don't have time right now to reply properly to you, but will do so later. Meantime, here is something I wrote a few weeks ago on another thread, since you mentioned Nelson Mandela and Robben Eiland




I first went to Robben Eiland in 1975, when it was still a prison. The warders used to organise dances and we went across on a very puke inducing ferry, if I remember correctly from Quay Four, where there is now a lovely restaurant. It wasn't a pleasant occasion, but it gave me a different perspective on the place that I overlooked from my kitchen window, without giving it a thought in those days, as we learned that 'it's jus' a blerry prison where they locked up a few kaffirs'. There was of course no internet, the media in SA were very controlled, and most of us believed what we were fed, mainly because it suited us, living in that paradise, to do so.

As times moved on and resistance to the Nationalist regime in SA gathered momentum, and I was one of the privileged people who had access to the international press (thanks to my ex- who worked at the airport and used to get me the UK newspapers off the weekly direct LON-CPT flight on Sunday morning.) Sunday mornings used to consist of a bit of HR (that's not hand relief by the way) and then reading the papers while she was burning the toast and trying to cook breakfast.

I started to get a different view of things but, perhaps to my shame, never really questioned any of it. As I said in another posting, Nelson Mandela has been held up as a saint, a criminal, and a terrorist, and perhaps he was all three at different times in his life.

Roll on the years, change of government, not for the better for most people but that's another story, and perhaps 6 years ago I went to Robben Eiland, now no longer a prison, on the tourist ferry from the Nelson Mandela Gateway at the Clock Tower in the Harbour, with my family. Before boarding the ferry you are locked into a darkened room to watch a video about the prisoners and what happened in those days. A deeply moving and humbling experience. Of course it's just another view of history from the opposite perspective to what we learned. I, having grown up in SA, was far more moved by it than the overseas visitors.

We were then taken round, as you were, by an ex-political prisoner, and the absence of bitterness and rancour as he addressed us was noticeable.

All South Africans, of all races and poltical persuasions, should have the opportunity to visit Robben Eiland and to learn what went on there. I am not convinced that the change of government in SA has benefited the majority as it was meant to, nor am I an apologist for apartheid - it went on around me and I admit that I benefited from it, but I did not know enough about what it implied to either support or oppose it, and that of course was exactly what the government wanted. It was like the weather, it just happened and was beyond our control, a fact that we accepted.

Indeed, many of us white folk should hang our heads in shame, but so should many of the black leaders of South Africa, in fact of many countries in Africa, now.

This is from the Robben Eiland website :
Quote:
The entire six square kilometer island is now a UN World Heritage Site. A forlorn yet tranquil atmosphere permeates the place. One can almost hear audible sighs of relief from the island, once a haven for seals and ocean birds before sailing ships rounded the Cape. Sailors relentlessly plundered it for fresh seal meat and penguin eggs. Eventually it became a dumping ground for exiles and criminals. In the 17th century the Dutch were the first to banish their political troublemakers and Muslim leaders from the East Indies. Today there’s a beautiful shrine, called a kramat, built in honor of Tuan Guru. After his release this Muslim holy man went on to found Islam among Cape Town’s slaves.
Xhosa chiefs who rebelled against British rule were shipped to the island from the Eastern Cape. From the mid 1800’s criminals, prostitutes, outcasts, lepers and the mentally ill joined them. All were subjected too much cruelty and abuse.
And I end with a quote from Nelson Mandela :
Quote:
“Today when I look at Robben Island, I see it as a celebration of the struggle and a symbol of the finest qualities of the human spirit, rather than as a monument to the brutal tyranny and oppression of apartheid. It is true that Robben Island was once a place of darkness, but out of that darkness has come a wonderful brightness, a light so powerful that it could not be hidden behind prison walls…
It's a great shame that the current leaders of SA do not live up to the promises and the expectation of Nelson Mandela.

[journeyman]

Good post, admittedly.

To be continued...

[White Knight]

Whight Knight / sittingidly

It appears recently that whatever ME forum I turn to, the end result appears the same. An immature, emotional and overheated slanging match between the two of you.

Whilst I'm all for people expressing different viewpoints, this level of bickering serves little purpose other than ruin these threads. Sort your differences out via PM's and please leave these forums for adult discussions, not personal penis competitions.


I apologise for the bickering;)

Wanna compare penises???




:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[crewmeal]

This is the thread that links in with *33 of the thread.

The dark side of Dubai - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)

[Capetonian]

Back to Journeyman :
So you have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political. Easy to say when the system you grew up in clearly favoured the paler demographic. No attacks of conscience with that, I'll bet.
Absolutely nothing to do with that at all. I had the right to vote in the UK and chose not to exercise that, I believe I may still have that right, but I am not interested. It's a decision I made before reaching the age of franchise and one which, in my view anyway, time has proved to be correct. Do you think, for example, that what is currently happening in the Eurozone, is a result of 'democracy' as it was intended? Do you think that people in Zimbabwe or South Africa are happy with the results of their 'democracy'? It's a charade, and a sick one.

I wonder if you would've been less inclined to sit on the political fence, had the cosmos decreed that you pop out of the womb in the middle of Tembisa, say.
The honest answer to that is that until 1994 I'd have had no choice. At that stage it was irrelevant.


......... you actually mentioned that apartheid was not all bad. ...... I gave you an out by suggesting that you had an inherent dislike for the system, but you didn't take it! Trust me, it's not a good look for you.
I didn't need 'an out', I stand by my statement, whatever it 'looks like' for me. I don't care. I didn't have an inherent dislike for the system and I'm not going to pretend now that I did. As per my previous post, I grew up with it and accepted it, as did most of us. From a white perspective we knew relatively little about it and it wasn't bad. How exactly did you expect most people to realise what went on? I had a friend whose mother was active in the Black Sash, these are the things that happened in those days,
In September 1985, her house was tear-gassed and in November of the same year her car was burned right outside her house. Over the years Di received many threatening phone calls and some death threats. She continued with her work in the struggle even after an automobile accident left her injured and killed her husband. Was it an accident? Who knows, it happened when they were on their way to the Transkei to attend a political meeting. And we could smell the smoke and tear gas at their house from where we lived, in Oranjezicht.

Less freedom of information now than under the Nats? Surely you jest. Mandela was incarcerated 7km off Blouberg Beach for over two decades and nobody knew what he looked like, or what he stood for. Or what the ANC's doctrine was. Dissidents slipped in the shower and fell out of the windows of John Vorster Square at an alarming rate. Newspapers were summarily shut down. Etcetera, etcetera.
The checks and balances are being eroded, fast, and it won't be long before the free press - which is effectively one newspaper these days, Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source (http://www.mg.co.za), is stifled, they're doing a sterling job of trying with the new bill that was passed on 'Black Tuesday', a few weeks ago, by the ANC.

The bill was opposed by a broad civil society coalition containing 400 organization, including unions, media organizations and business groups. Also speaking out against it were retired Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Nelson Mandela Foundation, and writer Nadine Gordimer, who said on the day before the vote that the ANC “is taking South Africa back to the suppression of the free expression of apartheid.”

A floor speech by Lindiwe Mazibuko, parliamentary leader of the opposition Democratic Alliance, was quoted in media reports:

This bill will unstitch the very fabric of our constitution. It will criminalise the freedom so many of our people fought for.

What will you, the members on that side of the house, tell your grandchildren one day? I know you will tell them that you fought for freedom. But will you also tell them you helped to destroy it?

Because they will pay the price for your actions today. Let this weigh heavy on your conscience as you cast your vote.

More than 1,000 protesters gathered outside the parliament building in Cape Town, many wearing black to symbolize “Black Tuesday,” a reference to what is called “Black Wednesday” for Oct. 19, 1977, when the apartheid government banned two newspapers and 19 black consciousness movements. The ANC advised its members of parliament to wear colorful clothing.

It wasn't so much about not knowing, it was more about not knowing that there was anything else to know , if you see what I mean. I was, as mentioned, one of the few who had free access to the outside press, but I'm talking about the days when there was a magazine called 'Scope' which was considered by some to be 'pornography' and every now and then they'd overstep the mark and the black strips on the chick's boobs was too small and it would be 'banned' by the dreaded Publications Control Board, which was a bit of a joke.

And you have the gall to outraged by Dubai's hypocracy?
I answered that in earlier post.

[Trader]

I actually meant it for the other posters (journeyman) who seem to delight in pontificating about SA.

It was meant in jest, to some degree, but the point is the crime rate WAS lower under apartheid.

[Capetonian]

the point is the crime rate WAS lower under apartheid.

It was, but one could also argue that the crime rate in Eastern Europe was lower under communism than it is under capitalism. Communism was the crime and the government the criminals.

I'm not arguing against myself here, just pointing out that someone will come up with the statement that apartheid was a crime against humanity. It was, but the current system is worse, and getting worse.

[Trader]

Journeyman-- I am guessing you come from a country ...somewhere.

I would also suggest, based on your moral 'high ground' comment, that we could reverse the logic to apply to you.

Being South African doesn't dismiss someones right to discuss issues of morality. By that logic no one would be discussing anything since we all come from some somewhere with 'tainted' hands.

[Capetonian]

Thank you, Trader. You have expressed, better than I did, what I was trying to say here, a few posts ago :

Anyone has the right to speak out about any human rights issue. You may think I have no right to criticise you for beating your wife if I beat mine, but that does not deny me the right to criticise your action, it just makes me a hypocrite.

[crewmeal]

Well if we're going to hijack the thread then the gory past has been put on show for all to see:

Gallows museum opens as national memorial and museum in Pretoria, South Africa - AOL Travel UK (http://travel.aol.co.uk/2011/12/16/south-african-gallows-opened-as-national-monument-and-museum/)

When I use to fly into Joburg back in the 70's I saw first hand how people were treated by the police. In my view apartheid was a bad thing and now there is a reminder of it by this disgusting exhibition which has opened.

[Capetonian]

Well if we're going to hijack the thread
Agreed, it should all be transferred to the South African Politics thread.

In my view apartheid was a bad thing and now there is a reminder of it by this disgusting exhibition which has opened.

You cannot expunge history and I don't see anything 'disgusting' about the exhibition. The same argument applies to the outstanding Apartheid Museum in Johannesburg, to Robben Eiland, and going further afield, to the concentration camps in Europe such as Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Ozwiecim which are open the the public as musuems/memorials.

[crewmeal]

OK point taken one could say the same about the chamber of horrors in Madam Tussaud's wax works. But it still doesn't detract from fact that it's an unnecessary ghoulish reminder of the past.

[journeyman]

Trader,

You're right - I do come from a country somewhere.

It's just that I wasn't the one dissing another country's system. I merely demonstrated that for every for finger you have pointing at someone else, there a four pointing back at you (unless you are a butcher, in which case it's only two or three).

All the best guys - sorry to have intruded. I won't be commenting anymore.