Brighton City Airways

[jabird]

New start up claims it is just awaiting clearance from BSH to start a new route to Paris Pontoise (POX). Previously used by the likes of Debonair, POX (not the best IATA code I admit) might not have the surface connections of ORY or CDG, but it sure beats BVA.

Claim is a faster journey than Eurostar, and makes big deal about lack of LGW route. This has been discussed on the LGW forum.

Fares from £59, doesn't say whether o/w or return, I would assume just o/w. Implication is small turboprop, no details on type or start date.

Hopefully more than just another paper airline, but still lots of reasons why theye face a tough challenge with such a large rival just up the road / rails.

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

It's had it's own thread on here before ... as I recall the website is registered to a domestic address in Haywards Heath and a hotmail email address, apparently been waiting years for Brighton Council to cough up some much demanded cash ..... pigs might .....

[jabird]

I always try and find a thread before starting a new one, yes that doesn't surprise me, not sure if there is a general thread for BSH either, as I said, very difficult when you have such a large airport just up the road.

Yes, the 10 minute check in sounds appealing, yes there is a catchment on the south coast, but actually making such routes work is a very different kettle of fish.

Actually, come to think of it, I seem to remember the thread going along exactly the lines as above.

Mods, pprune is a great site, but why is the search facility so cr%p :mad:?

[Cyrano]

Here's (http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/464030-brighton-city-airways.html) the previous thread. Does "awaiting clearance from" translate to "trying to extract funding support from"? It's not as though the airfield is slot-constrained...

[jabird]

Cyrano - thanks, and DOH, I even commented on said thread. Coffee time methinks! Yawn!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Is the call sign for the Airline called Seeweed?
Only joking
Up The Palace

[learjet50]

Its that time of the year some young lad has been promised a J31 or similar for Christmas it wont cost much to run or set up a schedule airline

We tried Oxford and a few other places How about Shoreham

It on the South Cost prices similar to Oxford so why not

We can always lease a J 31 and not pay them for it con the CAA we are a good all round egg and get the licence

Have I heard Ducks FXXT Before


I Think so


Merry Christmas to all who have there heads in the clouds

:confused::confused:

[Aero Mad]

learjet50, if you think this has anything to do with Varsity/associated characters I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree old fruit. And, given that a Jetstream 31 would need a good deal more runway that Shoreham can provide, I think they really would have their heads in the clouds if that was their chosen equipment. Looking at the website and talking to the man behind the idea (who is currently at Flying Time Aviation), he seems a lot more sensible than you would make out.

[jamestkirk]

I give it three months....Max

[Phileas Fogg]

I said similar in the previous thread, and I'll say similar in this thread, if LGW is lacking a PAR route then start a LGW/PAR/LGW route and don't come up with half-cocked ideas of operating from/to a south coast airfield with restricted facilities, no ILS etc, to/from some airfield that isn't actually a Paris airport.

[learjet50]

3 Months a bit generous arent you ??

Never Never even start flying I Thing Aero Mad maybe has shares in them if he does SELL SELL:hmm::hmm::hmm:

[jamestkirk]

Just trying to be optimistic:rolleyes:

But your right. 2 months, max

[putneyuk]

On our local BBC News this morning, flights start twice daily in the Spring with a 19 seater aircraft. Did a quick search online their website didnt appear to be working, but some graphics of a Let410 in their colour scheme. If it starts cant see it lasting.

[fjencl]

Brighton to Paris air service launch (From The Argus) (http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10073487.Brighton_to_Paris_air_service_launch/)

[Phileas Fogg]

Since when has Pontoise been in Paris and I can just imagine a full load of 19 punters arriving at the check-in desk at STD -15 and all being processed in time for an on time departure!

[virginblue]

Flights will be operated by Vanair, which is, IIRC, part-owned by the Manx2 owner. Any link up here?

[Aero Mad]

Since when has Pontoise been in Paris and I can just imagine a full load of 19 punters arriving at the check-in desk at STD -15 and all being processed in time for an on time departure!

In fairness, Phileas, if you'd ever flown scheduled out of Shoreham then you'd know that's quite possible. When I used to fly ESH-ACI regularly it was quite possible to get everyone processed and off in time for the flight even if they did all turn up at the last minute.

[Phileas Fogg]

Aero Mad,

Security, just for starters, might have changed since your ESH-ACI days ... Checking in baggage, security questions, then emptying pockets and/or being frisked thru security, taking laptops from bags, "what's that bottle of water and/or that sharp object doing in your bag maam?, then going for a p1ss or indeed a No.2, then walking out to the aircraft, then starting engines whilst safety briefing ... Yep, all perfectly reasonable within 15 minutes!

And Pontoise ain't anywhere nearer to Paris since I last posted :)

[Aero Mad]

Phileas

Agree with you about Pontoise, although I last flew ESH-ACI in February 2008 and although there was security (X-ray machine etc.) there is no legal/CAA obligation for it on aircraft with 19 seats or fewer.

[Phileas Fogg]

And there's no legal requirement, they don't have one, for an x-ray machine at my local airstrip either ... machines make it quicker, without machines add a further few minutes!

[Aero Mad]

In fairness, at Alderney where they have a person to rifle through one's bag it take significantly less time to process 16 people than it does at Guernsey where they've got all mod-cons. I must say that the manual method seems rather faster - as well as cheaper - for smaller numbers of people.

[virginblue]

I remember a flight from BEB where the local security folks seemed to like their state of the art equipment so much that it took ages to deal with the handful of passengers. So don't give them toys to play with unnecessarily :p

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Since when has Pontoise been in Paris and I can just imagine a full load of 19 punters arriving at the check-in desk at STD -15 and all being processed in time for an on time departure!"

Since when has Oxford been in London? POX is not that far from Paris, a similar distance as CDG, so further out than ORY but very much nearer than BVA.

Public transport and road links are another matter, but it is closer to Paris than all the "London" airports except LCY and BID, so where's the problem?

[Aero Mad]

The mother and I will be flying on the service next summer, so we'll see how it goes.

[Fairdealfrank]

Good luck to them , let's hope it's successful.

If it is, how long before ESH becomes "London Shoreham Airport"?

[johnnychips]

Went on website out of interest. Can't seem to book anything.

[Phileas Fogg]

FDF,

I'd been reading this ridiculous press statement:

Franco-British ties will be stronger than ever with the launch of direct flights from Brighton to Paris.

Firstly, if Shoreham Airport were in Brighton then it wouldn't be called "Shoreham" ... Then one reads that it's actually to Pontoise, which is not a designated Paris airport, and it's to be operated by a 19 seater 'Puddle Jumper'.

This is an operation from one regional airfield, pretty much, in the middle of nowhere with minimal navigation aids, poor public transport links etc. to another regional airfield, pretty much, in the middle of nowhere, a regional airfield on one end of the route might be OK as long as there is a designated city airport on the other end of the route, this has regionals at both ends of the route!

And ... Such an operation will cause Franco-British ties to be stronger than ever? :)

P.S. And/or the punters can pop down the East Sussex/Kent coast to Ashford and catch a train directly in to the centre of Paris!

[wiggy]

Can't seem to book anything.

Soemewhere on said website it says bookings from 1 Dec.....

[Phileas Fogg]

An international airline with a (cheap) .co.uk domain address?

"Fares from £69.00 including taxes and charges"

That'll go down well in France ... they're on the Euro there :)

[fjencl]

Brighton City Airways (http://www.brightoncityairways.co.uk/cgi-bin/flightbooking?lang=en)

[Aero Mad]

This is an operation from one regional airfield, pretty much, in the middle of nowhere with minimal navigation aids, poor public transport links etc. to another regional airfield, pretty much, in the middle of nowhere, a regional airfield on one end of the route might be OK as long as there is a designated city airport on the other end of the route, this has regionals at both ends of the route!

Phileas, in fairness to Shoreham it has the first GPS approach to a GA airfield in the United Kingdom as well as a perfectly good NDB approach - not too short on navaids. Bearing in mind that a 2 minute shuttle minibus will run from the airport to Shoreham-by-Sea station, which is 13 minutes from Brighton by train, you've got a Brighton-Shoreham Airport travel time of 15 minutes which is considerably less than the alternatives, weighed up in time terms:

By air

Brighton - Shoreham Airport: 15m
Check-in/security: 30m (generous)
Flight: 1h
Immigration/customs/baggage collection: 15m
Pontoise Airport - RER (A) Cergy – Préfecture: 15m
RER (A) Cergy – Préfecture - Charles de Gaulle-Etoile (Arc de Triomphe): 45m
Total time: 3h maximum
Total cost: £150 return inc. transfers

By train

Brighton - Ashford International: 1h46 minimum
Transfer time: 20m minimum (cutting it a little fine)
Ashford International - Paris Gare du Nord: 1h53 minimum
Total time: 4h minimum, often 5h
Total cost: £99 return minimum, often £138 return

So there are some clear advantages.

[TurboTomato]

Would you try to go Brighton to Ashford though? Surely you'd just take a fast train up to Victoria/London Bridge and pick up the Eurostar at Kings Cross? How long would that take?

How often to trains go from Brighton to Shoreham?

[Phileas Fogg]

Aero Mad,

Hang on ... 2 minutes by shuttle bus and 13 minutes by train = a 15 minute journey time? You mean there's a train every minute just in case the aerodrome shuttle bus should be arriving or departing?

And by your calculations all the passengers and going to be coming from/going to Brighton ... That's kind of like suggesting all of Gatwick's passengers come from/go to Crawley!

So what if the passengers are coming from/going to Eastbourne, Redhill, Croydon, Sevenoaks, Winchester and so on???

Your transit times don't look so favorable now do they???

[Fanda_2007]

I think Thameslink trains go direct from Brighton to St Pancras

[Phileas Fogg]

Yes Fanda ... but Shoreham airport ain't in Brighton :)

[TurboTomato]

That's pretty good.

I was going to ask how it compares to a short hop on the train to Gatwick and then a direct flight to Paris (any airport) but a quick search suggests that doesn't exist!

[Phileas Fogg]

"Nor is London Gatwick airport in London"

So what would be the point of providing train information to London when one actually needs to get to Gatwick Airport?

[Phileas Fogg]

TT,

Tunbridge Wells then Ashford then train ... just perhaps!

Time to spare ... Then go by air :)

[TurboTomato]

Better still, Ebbsfleet :ok:

I was more trying to make the direct comparison made by Aero Mad of centre of Brighton to centre of Paris.

Had no idea there were no direct Gatwick-Paris flights until I searched. So they may be onto something...

[Phileas Fogg]

TT,

Only in a "Boyzone" world would a Puddle Jumper operation of 19 seats, with no 'crapper' and no cabin crew, come anywhere close to subsidizing for a B737/A320 sized operation, with 'crappers' and cabin crew, in/out of LGW.

[TurboTomato]

Agreed but presumably they have some sort of business plan!

[gordon field]

I've never seen seats that large in a Let 410.

I hope that they have better luck than the Twin Pin that used to operate out of Shoreham-Brighton-London Airport to the CI a few years ago that lasted ? Months.

Surely it would be quicker to get the London-Lydd- Paris/Le Touquet flight?

[GROUNDHOG]

A few years ago I arranged for the Air Wales DO228 to go into Shoreham with the idea of operating schedules to Cardiff, Why I mention this is that a large Insurance company which has offices in both places, a motor company with a plant in Bridgend and an IT company were all willing to GUARANTEE a certain number of passengers per flight. It would have covered the costs but the owner of the Company didn't want to do it.

It is just possible these guys have done their homework and such possibilities still exist, on its own it probably doesn't stand a snowballs chance of making a profit but I have long felt there are niche possibilities from Shoreham at the right price - a pretty high price.

Good luck!

[DaveReidUK]

Only in a "Boyzone" world would a Puddle Jumper operation of 19 seats, with no 'crapper' and no cabin crew, come anywhere close to subsidizing for a B737/A320 sized operation, with 'crappers' and cabin crew, in/out of LGW.

Well they have at least one USP that Heathrow and Gatwick can't offer:

"The airport has facilities to securely store your bicycle."

[GMIMA]

Mmmmmmmm van air Europe are the same mob that operate flights on behalf of manx2.com, the local travel agent that models itself as an airline.

Noel Hayes apparently owns 49% of van air Europe

[airborne_artist]

A whois on the domain:

Domain name: brightoncityairways.co.uk Registrant: City Airways Registrant type: UK Individual Registrant's address: The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their address omitted from the WHOIS service. Registrar: Heart Internet Ltd t/a Heart Internet [Tag = HEARTINTERNET] URL:

Something not quite right there I think.

[Aero Mad]

I don't have any connection with Brighton City Airways but have had some brief contact with Candelon (http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/jonathan-candelon/16/615/760) in the past and he's no fraud. The backing of Neil Laughton (http://www.neillaughton.com/) (ex-SAS/Marines turned entrepreneur, adventurer and pilot) would imply that this isn't particularly dodgy - unprofitable maybe but a con? Certainly not.

[Phileas Fogg]

When I ran a "whois" search on this outfit a year or so back the result came up as a residential address in Haywards Heath and a Hotmail email account.

Now it's quite easy to change all that, just change the registered address to an office, perhaps "Brighton City Airways c/o Shoreham-By-Sea Airport, and change the email address to "[email protected] or whatever.

Or one, or others, could opt to remain anonymous and I've a pretty good damn idea that they are reading every word that is posted here!!!!!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: “I'd been reading this ridiculous press statement:

Franco-British ties will be stronger than ever with the launch of direct flights from Brighton to Paris.

Firstly, if Shoreham Airport were in Brighton then it wouldn't be called "Shoreham" ... Then one reads that it's actually to Pontoise, which is not a designated Paris airport, and it's to be operated by a 19 seater 'Puddle Jumper'.”

Agreed, the statement is vacuous nonsense. Still, good luck to them if (clearly it is a big “if”) they can make it work. If there were LGW flights, there would expect there to be no chance.

Quote: “By air

Brighton - Shoreham Airport: 15m
Check-in/security: 30m (generous)
Flight: 1h
Immigration/customs/baggage collection: 15m
Pontoise Airport - RER (A) Cergy – Préfecture: 15m
RER (A) Cergy – Préfecture - Charles de Gaulle-Etoile (Arc de Triomphe): 45m
Total time: 3h maximum
Total cost: £150 return inc. transfers

By train

Brighton - Ashford International: 1h46 minimum
Transfer time: 20m minimum (cutting it a little fine)
Ashford International - Paris Gare du Nord: 1h53 minimum
Total time: 4h minimum, often 5h
Total cost: £99 return minimum, often £138 return”

TheEurostar is not going to help in this case: almost 2 hours to Ashford (London may be a little quicker). As is often the case, mainline trains work best from city centre to city centre.

It’s probably about 2 hours to Heathrow via Clapham Junction and Feltham) for a flight to CDG/ORY, so maybe the "puddle jumpers" could work.

[virginblue]

Firstly, if Shoreham Airport were in Brighton then it wouldn't be called "Shoreham" ... Then one reads that it's actually to Pontoise, which is not a designated Paris airport, and it's to be operated by a 19 seater 'Puddle Jumper'.”

Agreed, the statement is vacuous nonsense. Still, good luck to them if (clearly it is a big “if”) they can make it work. If there were LGW flights, there would expect there to be no chance.


It is no more rubbish than those Ryanair claims that they invest 180m EUR and create 1000 jobs if they base a Boeing 737-800 somewhere in the wastelands. Usual marketing talk.

[Cyrano]

It is no more rubbish than those Ryanair claims that they invest 180m EUR and create 1000 jobs if they base a Boeing 737-800 somewhere in the wastelands. Usual marketing talk.

"No worse than Ryanair" is setting the bar pretty low all the same, isn't it? :hmm:

[BOAC]

I wish Candelon well, but there is a depressing tale of failed routes out of EGKA, aka Brighton International.

[SpeedbirdXK8]

Shall we start at base camp - Brighton City Airways is not regsitered with companies house. City Airways Ltd is a non trading/dormant company. Website full of library pictures and no contact us page/telephone number. NO mention of any nation AOC. NO ABTA Bonding. As someone before mentioned - no cabin crew and no crapper at £69 each way. :hmm:

[RedhillPhil]

Better still, Ebbsfleet :ok:

I was more trying to make the direct comparison made by Aero Mad of centre of Brighton to centre of Paris.

Had no idea there were no direct Gatwick-Paris flights until I searched. So they may be onto something...

There used to be...then along came Eurostar. How about...
Depart Brighton 09.37
Arrive St. Pancras 11.04
Depart St, Pancras 11.31
Arrive Paris (proper Paris, in the City) 14.47.

That's 4' 10" actual.
:)

[Phileas Fogg]

Whilst still laughing at SpeedbirdXK8's comments RedhillPhil please refrain from presuming that the punters will all be coming from central Brighton ... Do all Southampton's punters come from Central Southampton ... Both Brighton & Southampton having PDQ train lines to central london? ... What's the train time to/from London/Paris and Shoreham-By-Sea?

Suggesting a fare in GBP's out of Pontoise, Pontoise being on the Euro, well perhaps the operator behind the website has a fixation with the number "sixty nine" which might be all one receives for their money! :)

[Phileas Fogg]

But then how about Horsham and/or East Grinstead to Shoreham-By Sea-Rail then farting around by road to the aerodreome then, allowing for delays, some 1hr check-in then 1hr, minus cabin crew and crapper, flight then public transport Pontoise to central Paris (check it out on ratp.fr - Accueil (http://www.ratp.fr) if one dares to navigate the french language :) compared to Horsham and/or East Grinstead by rail, with cabin crew and crapper, to central Paris.

[Zag23]

Why all the negativity Phillanus? And whats your fixition with toilet facilities?:uhoh:

[pinhammond]

To me it sounds like the "investors" in this incredible venture have decided to ask the drain how much money it wants to be thrown into it.

[davidjohnson6]

Easy to criticise a new airline startup. Much harder to set an airljne up yourself. Mr Candelon will have had to put up a fair chunk of personal cash to start the company and a lot of time. If you think you can do better, there's nothing to stop you. Watch the Apprentice or Dragon's Den for starters

[colegate]

davidjohnson6. You are so right. Starting an airline is probably the most difficult thing to do in the world. The failure rate is exponential. Perhaps that is why so many are so cynical about the prospects of this attempt, which lets face it is right on the fringes of commercial aviation.

[Cymmon]

Don't disrespect "Phillanus" (sic), you just don't know.....;)

[Phileas Fogg]

Starting an airline David? ... You mean Brighton City Airways is to have it's own AOC with postholders etc?

How does one make a million in aviation? ... One starts with 10 million!

I've got better things to do than start a tin pot flying operation, boys and their toys and all that, I'm living the dream developing my own business on this tropical island, why on gods earth would I want to waste my time and life starting some tin pot flying operation from an airfield out the back of beyond someplace? :)

[jabird]

The failure rate is exponential.

Eh? Surely something that tends towards one can't be exponential?

Or are you saying it is like the 9's of server uptime?

Given a 10+ year timeline, the failure rate is 99.99999.....%?

[davidjohnson6]

Come on everyone (you know who you are)

The people behind Brighton City Airways, whether it's an airline with AOC or just a glorified travel agency have come up with an idea and think they've found a gap in the market. They've put up some of their own personal cash, and are putting time into making it work.

Easyjet was once a tiddly airline flying from 1 route from a shed in Bedfordshire - nobody thought it would survive. I'm not saying that Brighton City will turn Europe orange and green, but most companies begin small, and all nascent companies need someone with a bit of vision and willing to invest time and money to turn their vision into a reality.

Maybe the company will succeed, maybe it won't succeed. At least they had the entrpreneurial guts to try and give it a go, and for that alone I think they deserve some credit.

[jabird]

Easyjet was once a tiddly airline flying from 1 route from a shed in Bedfordshire - nobody thought it would survive.

Err I think quite a few of us did. Back then I was still a spotty student, but I wasn't happy with trains charging me a good £50 or so with my railcard for a ticket only valid a month, when terms were 3 months.

So I went down (from Leamington) to LTN to fly back up to EDI.

The only thing that has really changed since then (apart from them getting a lot bigger) is that they have ditched the original mantra about flying from secondary airports, and let the flying harps take over that space.

Ryanair were around for a while before MOL jumped in - again, both he and Stelios took more than a few lessons from the Herb school of airline philosophy.

What are these guys doing that is going to make them special enough to survive? I still haven't heard a good reason why a route that won't work from LGW is going to work from BSH to POX?

[jabird]

Only in a "Boyzone" world would a Puddle Jumper operation of 19 seats,

The whole point of puddle jumpers is that they do just that - they jump puddles. That's why there's plenty of them in the Caribbean, operating thin routes between small islands that are close enough together that the benefits of pressurisation don't even start to kick in.

[Phileas Fogg]

Fair enough that Easyjet started on Air Foyle's AOC but as soon as was practical they set about getting their own AOC etc.

Suckling were one that tried something similar to what Brighton City are trying, Suckling thought they had a niche operating their Do228 in/out of (grass runway) Ipswich Airport until they, pretty much, got kicked out for churning the runway up, then they tried operations in/out of RAF Wattisham, then Cambridge until, pretty much, they realised there was no marketplace for them in East Anglia and moved out.

So what routes might work in/out of Shoreham that haven't already been tried and failed, not even JEA (FlyBE) could make the Channel Islands work out of Shoreham!

And, particularly bearing in mind Shoreham's restricted navigational aids, should LGW not be too willing to accept puddle jumper diversions where are they going to use an an alternate? Biggin Hill can't accept fare paying passenger movements, I guess there's SOU but then I understand there is limited ramp space which kinda leaves BOH, MSE or Lydd ... not really ideal!

This is a case of someone trying to be a smart@ss, if the south-east needs an air route to/from Paris then do it out of LGW and to a PARIS airport and stop trying to be clever trying something that will have a very limited shelf life.

[IOMspotter]

In fact there are lots of "airlines" that started off with no AOCs and just leased in aircraft. Easyjet used 2 charter operators to operate its flights for months before it got an AOC. Eastern Airways started with a leased in Metro and no AOC and over here Euromanx started with no AOC and a leased in Beach 1900. 2 out of 3 are still going strong so maybe the cautious start has something to say for it.:) No one can say Stelios or Lakey were fools:D

[NorthernChappie]

I well remember that T3 Metroliner. Seem to recall in flight catering being an orange (or apple if the oranges had run out). Anyway, T3 did ok and with the exception of Southampton, Cardiff and Norwich, I've used all of their stations from ABZ. 19 seat puddle jumper is fine when you have a day's paid work to get done and the schedules suit. I can think of 4 pax that would use Brighton - Edinburgh on a very regular basis if it was available. :ok:

[DaveReidUK]

I can think of 4 pax that would use Brighton - Edinburgh on a very regular basis if it was available.

Yes, but how much of a premium would they be prepared to pay, compared to the BAW/EZY EDI-LGW fare ?

[Phileas Fogg]

The web suggests that the Let-410 has a cruising speed of around 205/210kts which makes services to/from Scotland 'long haul' :)

[cornishsimon]

well i say good luck to them, they are certainly going to need it, but if it works well done.


This is a case of someone trying to be a smart@ss, if the south-east needs an
air route to/from Paris then do it out of LGW and to a PARIS airport and
stop trying to be clever trying something that will have a very limited shelf
life.

This point has always interested me, i know that the Tunnel dented the LON-PAR air market, but surely there is room for perhaps BA LGW-ORY ? twice daily ?


cs

[davidjohnson6]

Haven't seen anything on the web on this outfit for about 6 or 7 weeks. Anybody else seen anything such as local publicity or advertising in Sussex, or have they now all gone quiet on the marketing front ?

[ConstantFlyer]

Let's not kid ourselves that people flying to Pontoise are all going to Paris. Is everyone who flies to Luton going to London? No, of course not.

[Captivep]

Mr Laughton sold his business to Balfour Beattie for £8m so he might be taking a wild punt and be willing to lose some money in an attempt to have his own airline (let's face it, I'd be tempted if I won the Euro lottery - although my wife has standing instructions to kill me if I ever seriously thought about investing in my own little start up airline!)...

However a couple of oddities strike me. He's not a Director of City Airways, which seems strange. And the economics of having an aircraft sit idle for several hours in the middle of the day seems to go contrary to everything I've ever read about utilization (I'm sure there are experts who could put me right on that).

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "This is a case of someone trying to be a smart@ss, if the south-east needs an air route to/from Paris then do it out of LGW and to a PARIS airport and stop trying to be clever trying something that will have a very limited shelf life."
　

Quote: "Let's not kid ourselves that people flying to Pontoise are all going to Paris. Is everyone who flies to Luton going to London? No, of course not."



Let's nail this nonsense about Pontoise. POX is a "Paris" airport. It's about as far away from the centre as CDG and a little further than ORY.

That makes it closer to Paris centre than LHR, OXF, NHT, FAB, LGW, LTN, LYX, STN, and SEN (and MSE, SOU, BOH and CBG when they finally jump on the "London" bandwagon) are to London centre.


Quote: "I well remember that T3 Metroliner. Seem to recall in flight catering being an orange (or apple if the oranges had run out). Anyway, T3 did ok and with the exception of Southampton, Cardiff and Norwich, I've used all of their stations from ABZ. 19 seat puddle jumper is fine when you have a day's paid work to get done and the schedules suit. I can think of 4 pax that would use Brighton - Edinburgh on a very regular basis if it was available"

No puddles betwen ESH and EDI! (only kidding)
　
Quote: "This point has always interested me, i know that the Tunnel dented the LON-PAR air market, but surely there is room for perhaps BA LGW-ORY ? twice daily ?"

Hasn't dented it that much, and don't forget the ferries, Newhaven-Dieppe down the road, Dover/Folkestone-Boulogne/Calais along the coast.

Moreover, as mentioned by another poster, not everyone is going city centre to city centre. Also a choice of different types of travel is good.

[Cyrano]

And the economics of having an aircraft sit idle for several hours in the middle of the day seems to go contrary to everything I've ever read about utilization (I'm sure there are experts who could put me right on that).

It depends on how much of your costs are fixed (e.g. how much you are paying to own/lease the aircraft) and how much are variable.

If you have a whizzy new aircraft with a whizzy new price tag, you'll have to maximise the utilisation to generate enough revenue to pay the rent (note (1): that extra utilisation needs to at least cover its variable costs, and (2) there are various other benefits from increasing utilisation: more hours for same number of crew, etc.)

However if you have an older aircraft whose fixed costs are very low, you can just focus on flying at the most profitable times. This is what VLM used to do in LCY when the market was still good. This is largely what Eastern still do.

The provider of the aircraft in this case has probably negotiated a deal based on "pay us £x per hour, as long as you fly Y hours per month", and Y is not particularly large (older aircraft, etc. - see above).

[CelticRambler]

And the economics of having an aircraft sit idle for several hours in the middle of the day seems to go contrary to everything I've ever read about utilization.

There's an awful lot written about the economics of aviation that goes contrary to good financial management. I don't see this outfit or either of the two F50 start-ups currently being discussed in other threads seriously challenging the traditional model, but one way or another, the first tenet to fall will be that which says "an aircraft only makes money when it's flying."

On the other hand, the time is right for 19-seaters to make a comeback, and the L410 has a lot going for it. If (when) struggling regional airports realise that their future lies in being small, fast, unique and close and give up their fixation with attracting big loads of budget travellers, then we'll see a lot more of this kind of niche operation.

[Phileas Fogg]

the first tenet to fall will be that which says "an aircraft only makes money when it's flying."

CR,

So how does an aircraft make money when it's not flying?

[Expressflight]

There is a world of difference between the way you need to utilise a high cost, high depreciation, new aircraft to the way you can utilise a low cost, written down, (necessarily) older aircraft. You need to generate very high daily revenues with the former but much less daily revenue on the latter can still turn an operating profit. In a nutshell your fixed costs are lower, although of course no "aircraft make(s) money when it's not flying" - that would be a good trick to pull.

I assume that BCA are looking to maximise inbound traffic from France but I feel they need a French language section on their website to achieve that.

[Phileas Fogg]

Express,

One evening, in a previous life, I recall a having a chat with Andy Janes, of SEN background, and he explaining that having bought up all the old Budgies for next to nothing then within a year or few there would be no airframe depreciation (in monetary terms) to take in to account.

A friend of mine, in another of my previous lives, wanted to start a cargo operation and was talking about utilising Metroliners, telling him to "bog off" whilst suggesting he utilise SD330's he did the sums and came back to me telling me I was right, he didn't actually start a cargo operation but someone standing over my shoulder in the office that day subsequently started "Air Cavral" utilising, guess what, SD330's!

I'm fully aware that geriatric and/or pieces of cr@p airframes attract lower overheads, indeed in yet another of my previous lives I worked for, and personally knew on a less than formal basis, the "Sir" that made his money flying "scrap airframes" during the Berlin airlift, he's another with a SEN background, he started "Aviation Traders" there amongst other things.

About the only aircraft that make money when they're not flying are those on exibit and/or in museums, other than that they tend to attract expensive parking fees whist expensive to employ and train crews might be better utilised doing what they're paid and trained to do.

[GROUNDHOG]

I could name owners/operators who will let you have commuter aircraft for less than renting a car as long as you give them contribution towards maintenance costs and cover the standing charges.

A few years ago now but I know first hand the cost of the Let410 when it came to Pembrey for Air Wales and the expectations of the hours it had to fly.

[CelticRambler]

So how does an aircraft make money when it's not flying?

By generating sales based on the potential of the aircraft rather than actual travel. Seats on an aircraft are a commodity like any other, and a perishable one at that. Any normal retailer will confirm that footfall and passing trade are essential for maximising profits. So while your shop window is 36000 feet up being "experienced" by confirmed customers, someone on the ground has to be paid to come up with ways of convincing everyone who didn't buy, or hasn't decided to buy, a ticket that they ought to do so.

Modern aviation economics puts huge emphasis on the cost of an ASM but passengers don't buy ASMs, they buy a ticket for a journey that someone (else) has persuaded them they need to take. What works best? Cheap headline fares. The justification for this is, supposedly, to stimulate interest and create an impression of passing trade, but this fails to take account of the fact that a great number of potential air travellers really don't care whether or not the aircraft goes anywhere - they like the idea, they watch the TV travel programmes, they surf the net, they might even buy the guide book, but they don't book the ticket.

Give them a 'plane, sell them the hope of stepping aboard one of those once-a-day departures and they'll happily pay for another turn of the wheel of their dreams ... and no-one needs to worry about the cost of fuel.

[davidjohnson6]

Airline advises that French immigration / customs won't be ready at Paris-Pontoise until 2 weeks after Brighton City start flying. All flights to go via Rouen / Le Touquet for the first fortnight of operations

[Phileas Fogg]

It ain't Paris-Pontoise, it's "Pontoise-Cormeilles en Vexin" as so called by it's operator Autres-aéroports - Aéroports de Paris (http://www.aeroportsdeparis.fr/ADP/en-GB/Professionnals/Aeroportuaire/NosPlateformes/AutresAeroports/)

[Expressflight]

Actually, I think an airline operating into an airport which is exactly the same road distance from l'Arc De Triomphe as is CDG does have a case for calling it 'Paris'. Driving time is 40 minutes; 10 minutes longer than from CDG - once you've got out of the place of course.

Bad start regarding the Customs situation though as Rouen is far from being able to be called 'Paris', at 80 miles distance.

[Phileas Fogg]

And how many international air travellers "drive" from CDG and to/from, of all places, l'Arc De Triomphe?

The public transport website is ratp.fr - Accueil (http://www.ratp.fr/), the main interchange for much of France is Paris Gare Du Nord rail station, I've got better things to do, watch paint dry and concrete set etc, but I question the difference in public transportation times between CDG and POX to/from Gare Du Nord.

And if it ain't in Paris and the airport operator doesn't call it a Paris airport then it ain't a Paris airport, end of!

[davidjohnson6]

Express - should have made myself clearer. Rouen / Le Touquet will be just a stopover - all flights will begin or end at Pontoise but will take an extra 30 mins to.allow for an en route stop.

[Phileas Fogg]

Might as well fly the punters to/from London/Ashford airport and put them on a train from/to Ashford station and central Paris :)

Unbelievable, having to do a "tech stop" on a cross border air service because one of the airports doesn't have customs/immigration.

And Pontoise is a "Paris" airport ... Really? :)

[Expressflight]

You are grumpy this morning Phileas.

When I fly into CDG I usually get into the city by car; taxi or picked up by the client and I doubt that I'm unique in that respect. You wouldn't call l'Arc De Triomphe a central Paris destination then?

RER/Metro travel times to Gare du Nord are 25 minutes from CDG and 54 minutes from Pontoise RER station; as you would expect very much quicker from CDG.

I'll leave you to get on with your "better things".

[Expressflight]

Davidjohnson6

Thanks for that clarification.

It certainly reduces the appeal of the route as your average passenger doesn't much like an intermediate stop, let alone one where he may have to disembark to clear Customs.

[Phileas Fogg]

"This morning" Expressflight?

Nope, it's just approaching 1800 hours (GMT +8) here and we're just deciding where to go for our evening meal :)

[Expressflight]

Looking at the airline's bookable flights for the first couple of weeks it seems as if they're day stopping POX and just operating one rotation, unless I'm drawing the wrong conclusion.

[Phileas Fogg]

Just went online checking availabilty on 06/03 POX to ESH and shows as all flights full, which suggests they are non-op, until the evening of 11/03 which, when I entered, priced the 15 seats that I requested as available and at £73.95 each.

Doesn't appear that too many people have been booking this air service ... Now there's a surprise. :)

[Expressflight]

How was the meal?

[Phileas Fogg]

Thanks for asking Expressflight,

We went for pizza in this mosquito infested jungle, wasn't so good, chose a less than tasty pizza from the menu, back home now supping an evening beer or few before being up tomorrow morning for an 0730 (ish) start dictating/supervising the completion of a sh1tpit and soakaway, the priming/painting of the one remaning accommodation room, the rendering of walls, the clearing of cr@p and the neutralising then priming of the walls of our restaurant kitchen and kazi, then some gardening, then me and the missus, as required, might be off in the van to buy up some rocks (for concrete) and/or Bermuda grass whilst "Harry" our dog wonders "WTF?" :)

Could be worse ... I worked at SEN Airport once upon a time :)

[davidjohnson6]

Visited website and tried to dummy book for between 1 and 19 pax for each day from 6th to 19th March. I am assuming a 19 seater, so if 7 seats are available but 8 seats unavailable it would imply 12 seats are occupied. I am also assuming one round trip flown per day except Wed 13th March with no flight operating.

In the first 7 days, 46 seats are occupied each way or on average 6.6 seats are occupied per flight so load factor of 35%
Of the 92 seats taken, 22 are on the first day - presumably some are non revenue such as local press and various important bods.

Looking at the first 2 weeks of operations the demand peaks on Friday (8th + 15th March) and also Sunday (10th + 17th March). Midweek seems to be a slower seller, particularly as no flight operates on 13th March. This seems to indicate demand comes from leisure focussed passengers so far.

[Captivep]

Doesn't mean they were eight paying passengers though - especially in the first few days!

[tarnehat]

Hope it works out for them - they're going for the correct approach of a small aircraft to see if the demand is there, and day stop where the demand isn't. Any idea which Let 410 they're using from VanAir? (Never mind, it's OK-RDA, curiosity satisfied!)

[davidjohnson6]

It's showtime...

[Aero Mad]

Not a good start, flight departed for Le Touquet nearly two hours late. Hope things improve.

Live flight information - Brighton Airport (http://www.shorehamairport.co.uk/flightinfo)

[tarnehat]

Anyone got any pics? :D

[TSR2]

I notice tonights 19.30 departure to Le Touquet has already departed according to the Live Departures.

[Phileas Fogg]

And it also arrives at 1930 according to Live Arrivals ... these darn LET410's are quicker than one thinks :)

[Expressflight]

I assume this morning's delayed departure was due to the fact that the aircraft didn't position in from IOM until 0829.

[jamestkirk]

This whole venture is a waste of time, money and fuel.

Three months MAX

[Twitcher]

PICTURE: First Paris flight from Shoreham delayed | Meridian - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2013-03-06/picture-first-paris-flight-from-shoreham-delayed/)

[Captivep]

I'm not sure even the name is a good idea! Pretty restrictive when it comes to any ambitions for growth...

[Mickey Kaye]

Any update on the popularity of this service?

[davidjohnson6]

Mickey - if you want to see exact reserved passenger numbers, just go to the airline website and make a dummy booking for between 1 and 19 passengers and see if there is availability. Aircraft has 19 passenger seats so availability for 7 extra people but not 8 would mean 12 people already booked on the flight.

BCA generally do not give refunds for no shows

[turbine100]

I noticed Brighton City do flights to Le Touquet from seeing the departure / arrival boards.

Did they change flying from Pontoise to Le Touquet, or are they doing both routes?

Regarding comments of delays, will Shoreham airport be getting a ILS installed to support the Brighton City services?

[davidjohnson6]

turbine - could I suggest having a read of posts on this thread over the last 2 weeks ? Posts since the beginning of March might answer your question on Le Touquet

[turbine100]

Sorry, didnt scroll back to the previous :) Thanks!

I notice Shoreham dont have an ILS. I am guessing Brighton City really need this, if they are going to make it work. The new rules on compensation / delays came in regarding refunds etc for airlines.

[AirGuru]

Seriously, ILS ? I dont think a mere two movements per day on a puddle jumper warrants a large spend on an ILS system or anything of the sort ! :ugh:

[Phileas Fogg]

Shoreham has a history of failed scheduled service operations, even JEA (nowadays known as Flybe) couldn't make it work and for years Lydd, sorry "London/Ashford", Airport have tried to improve upon more than just a most basic cross-channel air service and still they're in the 4th division ... or whatever ithe 4th division is called these days.

Generally speaking, such puddle jumper operations work if they are from airport to airfield or airfield to airport, i.e. there needs to be a recognised airport at one end of the route.

Now if this were Gatwick-Pontoise then I reckon they could justify a 50 seater or similar, Gatwick-CDG then perhaps a hundred seater, Shoreham-CDG then perhaps a 20 seater ... Shoreham-Pontoise then perhaps a 4 seater!

But, basically speaking, and I've flown on Antonov's, Tupolov's and the likes, if I arrived at Shoreham to find a Let-410 waiting to transport me then I'd probably jump back in my car and drive an hour or so down the A27/M27 and allow Flybe to transport me from/to SOU.

[EGBE0523]

I dont think a mere two movements per day on a puddle jumper warrants a large spend on an ILS system or anything off the sort

But mowing the grass and moving the sheep off the strip may be within budget.

[tibbs87]

Found this detailed review with pictures on first flight ^_^

Brighton City Airways Inaugural To Paris, Let 410. — Trip Reports Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/trip_reports/read.main/234998/1/)

:D

[Phileas Fogg]

It's more like commercially advertising for the airport and airline rather than an independent review.

I believed the writer might actually know what he is talking about until I read:

Their aircraft of choice is the 19 seat Let 410, the largest commercial aircraft capable of using the available runway at Shoreham

[Expressflight]

Phileas

A think a glance at the declared distances and runway surface/dimensions might cause you to reconsider that view.

[Groundloop]

A think a glance at the declared distances and runway surface/dimensions might cause you to reconsider that view.

Shoreham could handle a Dash 7 which is significantly bigger than a LET so Phileas is correct. However as Dash 7s are rarer than hen's teeth maybe this is a moot point. But it does prove that the statement made in the "review" is technically wrong - therefore this throws doubt on the accuracy of everything in the article.:ok:

[Expressflight]

Groundloop

With respect, if the only aircraft larger than the Let-410 that you can come up with which can use Shoreham is one that is no longer in service in Europe, I cannot see how that "throws doubt on the accuracy of everything in the article." Perhaps the article was simply too positive for your liking.

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

DHC7's, DHC8-100's, even 30 years ago I was putting 20 (20 being greater than 19) seater DHC6's thru Shoreham

[davidjohnson6]

Phileas - about a week ago, I flew Shoreham-Pontoise with Brighton City - I read the review on a later date an, ignoring aspects around launch day and press coverage, thought it gave a pretty accurate description of the product BCA offer. It's extremely rare that a handling agent at a commercial airline says "Go to the restaurant and have some breakfast - we'll phone you when about to board". Admittedly it was a little annoying that I had to shovel the last piece of scrambled eggs and toast in my mouth and get up quickly because the person in the kitchen took their time over making my breakfast, but such is the way of life...

Maybe a slightly larger aircraft could be used but it's a fairly minor point - particularly for an airline and route which late in 2012 people wrote off as no hope.

If we end up with passenger aviation run 100% by 3 network carriers, Easyjet and Ryanair, then we are back to the monopoly days of the 1970s with airlines flying only where is operationally convenient rather than where passengers want to fly.

[The SSK]

How about an Ilyushin Il-18?

60 seats longhaul out of 1000m (even unpaved)

No, not that Il-18, this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-18_(1946)).

About as realistic as Brighton City Airways, if you ask me.

[Phileas Fogg]

davidjohnson6,

I'm not arguing that BCA is a little niche, indeed unique, operation, alas it has no recognised airport at either end of it's one solitary route thus I'd be willing to bet a beer that BCA's days are numbered.

The point I was making that a guy, believing himself to be knowlegable, made such a mistake without any research thus losing much, if not all, credibility of his obviously biased review.

And, should anyone believe that I am biased against Shoreham ... Once upon a time I resided in Storrington and would regularly drive around Shoreham and the surrounding area.

[Expressflight]

Wow, what a terrible error the writer of that article made in stating that the Let-410 was the largest aircraft that could operate from Shoreham.

How could he possibly have "made such a mistake" and got it so wrong and not realised that a Twin Otter could do so? I mean, one whole seat of extra capacity and he completely overlooked it; absolutely disgraceful. Naturally this results in the whole of his article being totally discredited and quite how he can sleep at night after such negilgence hardly bears thinking about it.

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight.

A DHC8-100/200/Q200 has circa 36/39 seats and a DHC7 50 seats, 50 seats vs 19 seats, one whole seat the difference between 19 and 50 ... Really?

Back to your Sarfend thread before the mods may shut that down again!

[Expressflight]

Phileas

Final word on this: would you seriously expect any airline to nowadays operate a Dash 8 on a UK scheduled service from either a tarmac runway 18m wide or the alternative grass runways at Shoreham? Surely your self proclaimed wide aviation experience would tell you this?

Back to your concrete mixer I'd suggest.

[Barling Magna]

Calm down chaps. Is this really worth getting heated over? Leave BCA alone and let them get on with it. Let's return to the subject at the end of the summer and see how they've prospered.....

[Phileas Fogg]

BM,

Certainly not worth Expressflight getting heated over, alas it seems he's stalking me around a thread or few of this forum merely to find disagreement(s) with me ... and he was the root cause of the "Southend - 3" thread being shut down by the mods.

Alas if only we had a concrete mixer in this part of the world, we've got cement, we've got sand from the beach, we've got rocks that the locals pilfer from the roads, we've got water from our well ... and we've got shovels!

Regards from Cloud 9 :)

[Expressflight]

Looking at the level of BCA's available fares for the first two weeks in April it seems that bookings may perhaps be picking up a little. They certainly need to resolve the Customs problem at POX though, if they haven't already.

[tarnehat]

Their facebook page recently had 1000 bookings surpassed, and the flights are once again twice a day, so looks like there is some demand there. Aviation is a tough game though, so it'll be interesting to see how well it continues.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "If we end up with passenger aviation run 100% by 3 network carriers, Easyjet and Ryanair, then we are back to the monopoly days of the 1970s with airlines flying only where is operationally convenient rather than where passengers want to fly."

Ah yes, the days when fares were fixed by IATA with economy class at 50% of the first class fare, no business and premium economy classes, with the odd APEX and ABC fares creeping in to get round this, and everyone else on charter operations out of Luton.



Quote: "Calm down chaps. Is this really worth getting heated over? Leave BCA alone and let them get on with it. Let's return to the subject at the end of the summer and see how they've prospered....."

Makes sense!

[Phileas Fogg]

Am I reading the CAA Stats correctly that during March Shoreham had 86 flights yet only 94 passengers?

[Expressflight]

That's certainly what the provisional stats show. It's a bit odd though that Shoreham doesn't appear in the route analysis section; if they've declared the POX route numbers you would expect them to have been shown there.

[NorthSouth]

No different to normal - Shoreham had 435 ATMs in 2012, all of which were schedules, and these flights carried a total of 480 pax.

But there's a number of issues with the CAA stats. They don't necessarily tell a full or accurate story.

NS

[Phileas Fogg]

435 movements and 480 pax over 12 months in 2012 equates to 36.25 movements and 40 pax per month.

Yet, last month, based on these figures ESH had an additional 49.75 movements yet only an additional 54 passengers thus just a smidgen over 1 passenger per additional movement based on the previous year.

Were those additional 49.75 movements Brighton City Airways or private puddle jumpers?

[NorthSouth]

Those CAA figures are only for schedules, or charters by aircraft >15 tonnes. As I understand it that rules out anything at Shoreham other than BCA.
NS

[BAladdy]

Just tried to book a flight for later this month. Quite a few flights showing as Full or no available.

Does anyone know if this is because the flights are sold out or is it because they are cutting back there schedule?

[davidjohnson6]

If you try to book just 1 seat and the website says fliggt is full, then you're looking at a cancelled flight. If booking 1 seat gives you availability, but booking 2 or more seats means the flight shows as full then it probably mean the 19 seat aircraft hasn't got room for both existing booked passengers and all of your party as well..

[Siyouma]

It didn't even last 2 months...

From their press release....

FRENCH BUREAUCRACY FORCES BRIGHTON CITY AIRWAYS TO
SUSPEND PARIS FLIGHTS
Brighton City Airways announced today May 2 that from Tuesday May 7 it will suspend its
recently launched service between Brighton and Paris, due to ongoing French Customs and
Immigration delays in setting up a point of entry at Paris Pontoise airport.
Said Jonathan Candelon of Brighton City Airways: “Just two weeks before we launched the
airline in March, we were advised by the French authorities that there would be a short delay
of a couple of weeks before a customs and immigration port of entry was in place at Paris
Pontoise. However, eight weeks later, this intolerable issue remains in place and with no firm
date set for a resolution.
“In the meantime, we have been obliged to land in another French airport – usually Rouen or
Le Touquet – en route to Pontoise and more often than not, the authorities have very rarely
come aboard to check passports.
“This has meant having two take offs and climbs instead of one, longer flight times, extra
airport fees and extra maintenance costs, all of which add up to a single flight to Paris
costing us 60 per cent more than a direct flight would cost, never mind the inconvenience for
passengers.
“We are truly sad to suspend the flights, not least because our ticket sales are over target
and the demand for this airline is proven to be there, but we are forced to postpone flights
until the issue is solved at Paris Pontoise.” “Brighton City Airways will operate the return flights to Paris until May 6 to allow passengers
to return from their bank holiday breaks in Paris, but will suspend the service after the return
flight to Shoreham lands on Monday evening.
“We want to thank everyone for the tremendous support they have given us –Brighton
(Shoreham) Airport, Van Air Europe, Aeroports de Paris, Handling Partners, KA Exec
Handling and our enthusiastic passengers. We will of course be giving a full refund to
passengers expecting to fly from May 7 onwards and we want to apologise to them for the
inconvenience. It is a huge disappointment for all of us.”
Ric Belfield, General Manager of Brighton Shoreham Airport said: “Brighton Shoreham
Airport are deeply disappointed that the French Customs issues at Paris Pontoise show no
signs of being resolved and as a result Brighton City Airways have reluctantly had to take the
difficult decision to suspend the operation until the matter is resolved. There are many
people who have worked hard and made considerable investment both in time and money to
bring the scheduled service into being. It is very hard to come to terms with the fact that the
route which has proved extremely popular with customers should be frustrated by matters
outside Brighton City Airways control. Brighton Shoreham Airport look forward to the French
Customs issue being resolved and the resumption of this valuable service. “
An official statement from the Aéroports de Paris Group said: The Aéroports de Paris Group
regrets this decision but is aware that without this Schengen entry-point agreement,
Pontoise and Toussus operators are losing money. Aéroports de Paris is continuing to work
on reopening these two airfields up to non-Schengen traffic as soon as possible in order to
maintain the promising scheduled services between Pontoise and Brighton.

Sounds to me like this is game over for good not just temporarily?

[Aero Mad]

https://www.brightoncityairways.com/finalpressrelease.pdf

Even I didn't think the party would end this quickly, but I don't hold out much hope for any restart given the wording - especially given the 'final' nature of the press release, unless of course this relates to it being the final draft.

[Phileas Fogg]

One hell of a lot of tongue in cheek ...

Just two weeks before we launched the airline in March, we were advised by the French authorities that there would be a short delay of a couple of weeks before a customs and immigration port of entry was in place at Paris Pontoise.

Were they advised bollox! Pontoise is not regarded as a "Paris" airport even by it's operator so nobody in France ever referred to it as "Paris Pontoise"

So if Pontoise doesn't have customs/immigration then how about Beuvais, Toussus and the other airfields surrounding Paris?

Perhaps the CAA Stats for March have something to do with this whereas apparently the load factors have been circa one pax per flight not taking in to consideration other flights that have been cancelled.

Would French customs/immigration seriously attend an aerodrome for circa one pax per day? :)

[Expressflight]

It is, of course, correct that Aeroports de Paris is the operator of POX so I wouldn't say it is very far fetched for BCA to refer to it as Paris Pontoise. We're seeing marketing-speak here in the Press Release when all's said and done.

I'll be surprised to see the number of pax as being "circa one pax per flight" when the stats come out but let's wait and see.

[Phileas Fogg]

If the passenger numbers, the revenue, were there then they'd find a way, come hell or high water, to move their passengers, their bread and butter, to and from an airport somewhere close to Paris.

It was a nonsense to tech stop in Le Touquet or Rouen to then fly onwards to/from Pontoise, four sectors instead of two, why not just select an alternate airport close to Paris, after all they would have nominated a customs/immigration airport to divert to if need be, then why not divert (re-route) to it due to Pontoise being unavailable due to customs/immigration?

For some reason it seems BCA will not consider any other Pariis area airport than Pontoise, it's Pontoise or bust ... and it seems "bust" has won.

It was never going to work, operations between two airfields that aren't recognised airports nor indeed destinations and their "throwing in the towel" press release is merely a case of "let's blame it on anybody except ourselves".

[AdamFrisch]

I actually think the future is exactly this. With the hell that air travel has become, the hub system will not offer any future growth. We're sick of connecting and going through screenings in giant people mills, fly out of our way and add travel time to save airlines money and make their logistics easier. As a seasoned traveller for work, I alway go as direct as possible. I would never stay true to an airline and frequent flyer scheme that made me do an extra stop on the way if a competitor has a direct flight. Ever. Therefore, a city like Brighton with over 300K inhabitants could support this route. Maybe not in the way it was setup this time, but in a better way down the line.

The growth and the future is smaller, longer, thinner routes that fly direct. The hub system has it's place, but it's not going to grow much more. We just need less red tape, better and cheaper aircraft and less bureaucracy.

[CelticRambler]

Well said, Mr. Frisch. In one sense, the LoCos have done the industry a favour in defining the bottom of the barrel and provoking the phrase "It costs more to get to the airport than I paid for the ticket!" Once the slightly cash-strapped Paying Joe Public realises the full meaning of that phrase and marries it up to the fact that £5/5€ fares haven't been seen for a long time, there will be plenty of space (and demand, I believe) for the kind of service offerd by BCA.

While there is some implied criticism of the French in this thread, it should be remembered that it's the UK being outside of Schengen that's causing the problem, not to mention the hefty Anti-Passenger Duty that has applied to 19-seat/<20t aircraft since 1st April. One could almost believe HM's government doesn't want her subjects mixing with us unwashed continentals, but I'm sure there's some other very good reason for trying to kill off regional commuter airlines/airports.

[Phileas Fogg]

fact that £5/5€ fares haven't been seen for a long time

Really? Only 2 days ago I paid £1.65 (£10.36 including all the extras) for international travel Philippines to Hong Kong and such fares are available for all nationalities to book.

I actually think the future is exactly this. With the hell that air travel has become, the hub system will not offer any future growth. We're sick of connecting and going through screenings in giant people mills, fly out of our way and add travel time to save airlines money and make their logistics easier. As a seasoned traveller for work, I alway go as direct as possible. I would never stay true to an airline and frequent flyer scheme that made me do an extra stop on the way if a competitor has a direct flight. Ever. Therefore, a city like Brighton with over 300K inhabitants could support this route. Maybe not in the way it was setup this time, but in a better way down the line.

The growth and the future is smaller, longer, thinner routes that fly direct. The hub system has it's place


there will be plenty of space (and demand, I believe) for the kind of service offerd by BCA.

Guys,

I've worked for the long haul carriers, the commuter airlines, the cargo airlines and indeed such an airline as Brymon Airways when Bill Bryce ran the show struggling to operate such niche routes as Plymouth to Morlaix and Brest ... just as one example.

Plymouth/Brymon, in those days, had something of an advantage because RAF St. Mawgan had no customs/immigration and EXT was only good for perhaps the Channel Islands and an on/off Air UK Bandit to LGW or to AMS via SOU I seem to recall, Plymouth had it's own catchment area and it still struggled to make a go of things.

Now with relation to Shoreham, it's been mentioned that Brighton has a population of 300K ... But isn't it just as easy for those 300K to take a train or take a drive to LGW than it is to ESH?

Shoreham also serves Worthing (no direct trains to LGW I believe) but then Worthing has a lesser population than Brighton, a drive to LGW is less than an hour and if they drive up the A24, and keep going, then end up, pretty much, at LHR.

Get much further west than Worthing then one stumbles upon SOU's catchment area with significant frequencies of services ... including Paris/Orly!

So what is ESH's catchment area? I'd suggest it is little more than Shoreham-By-Sea ... unless an operator can offer something unique and/or fares that will attract customers from afar.

So along come BCA, another in a long line of past failures attempting to provoke schedules services out of ESH, clearly realising that they could never compete with LGW routes they established that one couldn't fly LGW/PAR but rather than offer, let us say, LGW/CDG or ESH/CDG, BCA decided upon ESH/POX, very few want to travel from ESH, very few want to travel to POX ... and this route is the something unique that will attract customers from afar and/or that a Brighton population of 300K can support?

And suggestion that the hub operation has had it'd day ... just as an example someone had better tell BHX this because BHX's connections to hubs are second to none, KLM (5 services daily), Lufthansa (DUS, FRA & MUC), Swiss, SAS, Air France etc. etc. etc.

Personally I prefer not to fly on, to quote, "giant people machines" and when, just as an example, I could fly BHX/DUS/KBP/DUS/BHX on 50 seater CRJ's all the way and with less than 1hr connections and adjoining gates in DUS and at a fare that suited my pocket then why the hell would I ever consider travelling down to LHR or LGW just for a direct flight?

And all these passengers that may travel to/from PAR, so many of those are not destination PAR but merely travelling there, with the likes of AF, to connect onwards, my last time in CDG I was there for an hour before flying onwards to SIN. LGW/PAR services have been withdrawn, perhaps the only route monopoly AF may have is to French regional cities, the French Caribbean and French Africa, LGW's catchment area will probably be routing via LHR or have sourced a hub operator, other than AF, to make their worldwide connections on.

BCA have/had no codeshare agreement to offer onward connections from PAR so, unless travellers wanted to pay for two tickets rather than one, all they were offering was a service for passengers destination PAR area and/or northern France ... and as for French travellers travelling in t'other direction ... they'd more than likely be questioning where the hell Brighton is. :)

Many of us love the romance associated with a "cottage industry", it seems particularly in aviation, and there is a place for such cottage industries in UK aviation. Business Air up there in Scotland was one such cottage industry which still survives today as "BMI Regional", CWL might be another location for such a cottage industry to thrive, it's been suggested that Air Wales might still be in business had they stuck with Do228's rather than upgrade to ATR42's, I'd like to have seen the aftermath of Brymon, ASW, thrive down in Devon and Cornwall but they were never likely to achieve it operating something as large as 50 seaters whilst adopting a LoCo business model.

I recall Suckling Airways starting up with their solitary Do228. East Anglia (NWI & STN) to/from AMS was Air UK's territory so Suckling tried services between (grass runway) Ipswich and AMS, Ipswich didn't work so they tried RAF Wattisham before Cambridge and those didn't work either, none of them had a substainable catchment area for an operation that, in particular, didn't provide for a codeshare agreement with the likes of KLM. But atleast Suckling tried operating to/from a mainstream airport rather than a regional airfield out in the sticks someplace.

So I believe there are places for UK aviation cottage industries to survive and, perhaps prosper, in such locations as Scotland, South Wales, Devon & Cornwall, all of which have their catchment areas but catchment areas for "cottage industry" sized aircraft to build route networks upon.

With LGW on it's doorstep scheduled operations are never going to work from ESH, BCA attempted to fill one gap that they though existed in the market, Paris, but one route doesn't make for a successful airline, what were their 2nd and 3rd routes etc. to be? ... ahem. :)

[sxflyer]

Phileas - just to pick up on the Suckling point, they had to move on from Ipswich because their aircraft was churning up the grass runway. You may have been aware of that, but "didn't work" in the context of your post suggests pax numbers weren't there which wasn't true. At the time, STN wasn't what it is today and access from ipswich was poorer, pretty much country roads all the way. Ipswich was quite an economic centre, with industry, manufacturing and a developing financial sector. Felixstowe with its international logistics and shipping was just 15 mins away from the airport, and the surrounding rural areas were (and still are) very wealthy.

Wattisham was just an interim measure.

You can't really say Cambridge didn't work though, yes it became unsustainable in a changing world but it operated for the best part of about 15 years

[insuindi]

Phileas - it must have been a while since your last DUS flight. No 50 seaters left, mainly CR900...

[CelticRambler]

Phileas - the very passion and argument of your post is why several "cottage industry" airlines can and should succeed in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. The challenge - as I see it - is to break the economic model. BCA almost did that, for example, with their invitation to secure a fare with a flat rate deposit, but it's not enough.

I don't argue that hubs are obsolete; on the contrary, I agree with you that a multi-step journey by air from A-near-me to Z-where-I-want-to-be ought to be no more expensive or uncomfortable than a multi-step terrestrial journey to get a "direct" flight from somewhere I'm not to somewhere I don't want to be. A new type of "regional hub" served by multiple niche airlines with a single combined feed into major hubs would achieve this.

Niche airlines can survive with a single route if that route is properly integrated into a wider commercial venture. Make air seat miles the source of "ancillary revenue" and the rest of it works. This demands a completely different mental attitude to managing the airline, one that is almost deliberately excluded by the regulations and financiers as they are, but every other consumer-oriented sector has embraced the benefits of cross-fertilisation.

BCA serves as a good example of falling between too stools: advertising flights to "Paris" creates an expectation in the public mind of CdG and Orly, but when they find out it's the unfortunately labelled "POX" and not quite Paris (no, neither is Roissy, but who's ever heard of that place ...?) this rings the Ryanair bell. There are problems with the natives, but had the Shoreham destination been Toussus instead, it could have been sold as "Versailles" and targetted a new market, not one that is already settled in its ways.

BCA also jumped straight into the double-daily, every day routine. Why? That level of service can only be justified by a very strong business market, the same one that will have established patterns, preferred partners and a resistance to change. Most other travellers are quite happy with less frequent flights and would prefer a greater choice of destinations rather than additional services to the same one. Why didn't/don't BCA operate a twice weekly service to Rouen? Great little airport, wonderful restaurant, dynamic new-and-old town. It's even got customs facilities!

This is the kind of service that smaller operators using smaller aircraft can offer and win against the SLF-carriers.

[Fairdealfrank]

Suspect this service was only started because there are no longer any flights between LGW and PAR (all airports). If there were this service would probably have been a non-starter irrespective of the activities of French border control/customs.

Also suspect that ESH-POX was intended as a point-to-point service only, and that may have imposed constraints on it from the start.

How can POX not be a "Paris airport". It is some 16mi. NW of Paris so within the conurbation and no further away in distance than CDG from Paris centre. Compare that with BVA at about 50 mi. north of Paris.

[AdamFrisch]

Look at Virgin. Both Atlantic and America. They thrive on point to point and have made a great business out of not having a traditional hub system.

I think long, but thin lines have a huge potential in the future, but the problem is that there are no aircraft that serves it. Just imagine if there were 50-100 seat CRJ's with intercontinental range that flew direct. Edinburgh or Glasgow to NY, or maybe Belfast to San Paolo. The benefit with point to point is a captive audience - people's willingness to pay more goes exponentially up the shorter the travel time is and here the hub system starts to fall short. It's nonsense that you can't design an aircraft that has the same cost per seat to operate as a 380. They just haven't tried hard enough.

[SWBKCB]

Look at Virgin. Both Atlantic and America. They thrive on point to point and have made a great business out of not having a traditional hub system.

Remind me why VS have launched Little Red?

[Phileas Fogg]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/9/1/1193197.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/5/4/4/1939445.jpg

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Look at Virgin. Both Atlantic and America. They thrive on point to point and have made a great business out of not having a traditional hub system.

I think long, but thin lines have a huge potential in the future, but the problem is that there are no aircraft that serves it. Just imagine if there were 50-100 seat CRJ's with intercontinental range that flew direct. Edinburgh or Glasgow to NY, or maybe Belfast to San Paolo. The benefit with point to point is a captive audience - people's willingness to pay more goes exponentially up the shorter the travel time is and here the hub system starts to fall short. It's nonsense that you can't design an aircraft that has the same cost"

The reported death of the hub system is somewhat premature.

Replacement of hub-and-spoke by more point-to-point, means more flights. This needs cheap oil for a start, and uncongested skies.

People will pay more for direct flights, so it's good to have a choice, but there can be only so many point-to-point flights, it's just not going to happen from secondary airports to other secondary airports on long haul.

VS has a certain amount of transfer pax over LHR, just like BA, it's not purely a point-to-point carrier.

[Cyrano]

Look at Virgin. Both Atlantic and America. They thrive on point to point and have made a great business out of not having a traditional hub system.

"Thrive" is hardly a word one could use about either company. Great product, yes, certainly, but sustainable financial performance? Not yet.

I think long, but thin lines have a huge potential in the future, but the problem is that there are no aircraft that serves it. Just imagine if there were 50-100 seat CRJ's with intercontinental range that flew direct.
...
It's nonsense that you can't design an aircraft that has the same cost per seat to operate as a 380. They just haven't tried hard enough.

I understand you would like there to be a 50-100 seater with intercontinental range and the seat costs of an A380. Many of us would. Really. But wishing doesn't make it so.

The forthcoming C Series is a brand new design, optimised for its size, with new engines and heavy use of composites. It will (just about) have intercontinental range, but it is far from A380 seat-mile costs. (Actually, I think the B777-300ER is at least as good a yardstick for excellent seat-mile costs.) Truthfully, I struggle to see what can be done with existing technology that would deliver an aircraft much smaller than the C Series and at the same time with much better seat costs.

And if some new game-changing technology comes along, why would it not also be applied to larger aircraft? I believe the seat cost disadvantage of smaller aircraft over larger ones (for the same mission) is a structural one which can't simply be magically wished away by implying laziness on the part of engineers or manufacturers.

C.

[davidjohnson6]

Could I gently suggest someone open a thread on airline business plans to discuss the topic rather than using the thread on Brighton City Airways ? It's a very interesting topic but being hidden in a thread about BCA probably doesn't attract the audience it deserves

[Serenity]

Why don't they just go to Le Bourget??
Good enough for Business jets to Paris.

[Phileas Fogg]

Kind of, precisely the point ... So Pontoise becomes unavailable so divert/reroute to a Paris area alternate airfield/airport.

Is this rocket science or the sour grapes of a failed infrastructure?

[Expressflight]

I don't know for certain but I believe that Le Bourget doesn't accept scheduled traffic these days. Toussus-le-Noble may also have this restriction; perhaps someone in the know can confirm either way.

[CelticRambler]

Le Bourget is closed to scheduled traffic. Toussus is open but with restrictions:

Aerodrome prohibited to all air traffic from 2030 to 0400
(WIN + 1 HR).

Silence periods, from 01 APR to 30 SEP , SUN and HOL
from 1000 to 1300 (WIN + 1 HR) :
- Aerodrome prohibited to all air traffic, except ACFT
operated for aeromedical transport, with emergency
characteristic.
- Run-up prohibited.
Taxiing is authorized only for moving on apron or toward
maintenance workshop.

Aerodrome reserved for home-based VFR aircraft from
0400 to 0500 (WIN + 1 HR).

[Expressflight]

Thanks for that clarification CR.