How bad can it get in cattle class?

[dfdasein]

Have just completed a long haul return flight, economy, with Virgin Atlantic. My, have standards reached rock bottom!

Just four cabin crew in economy, three male. My wife had long finished her special diet meal and I was on my last bite of a very small portion of chicken and veg (no extras) when, hey, some wine arrived. Wife asked for wine and juice so that I could have a little more of the red plonk. On the flight out a request for some more tipple never came, and when I later complained, adding that if you are holding jugs of water and orange juice, why ask me if I would like some water? I was told to keep my voice down as other passengers were trying to sleep.

And, the Airbus has some shoddy finishing, but the design of the back of seat pocket by your shins on the A340-600 is something else.

[easyflyer83]

Why did you find it relevant to tell us the sex of the cabin crew?

Why would you complain that you were asked if you would like water when the crew were holding water/juice jugs? Isn't that just polite?

A request for more drinks is likely to have just been forgotten. A gentle reminder or a stretch of the legs to the galley might have done the trick.

Special meals. At my old airline, and every airline I have ever flown on, special meals are always served first and quite often they are devoured before the main meals are. Unfortunately, logistically this is how it works. Special meals, in economy atleast, get dished out first.

The experience has declined in the last 10 years, and it definitely has at VS. However, times are hard and until we all start paying the going rate for air travel it ain't going to improve. All that said, I still don't get much of what you complain about.

[dfdasein]

Subtlety and nuance ain't your strong points I guess.

[easyflyer83]

....or yours from the sound of it.

[PAXboy]

easyflyer83However, times are hard and until we all start paying the going rate for air travel it ain't going to improve. All that said, I still don't get much of what you complain about. Aint that the truth.

Every company is steadily downgrading their product and service to save money. The current recession is going to last at least another five years and possibly ten. If you want more service, do pay for Premium Economy or higher. Whilst that service is now largely what you used to get in Economy (minus the larger seat) that is where the market is. I agree that the change in service is not nice but, like everyone else, I don't like to spend more money than I have to.

Consider the service you now get in every field of commerce. Consider if your bank gives you better service than ten years ago? They get you to do it all online. Your supermarket? You can check goods out yourself (but get no benefit from so doing) or you can pay to have them delivered (which is, actually, a bargain in terms of money/time + effort).

Think about your electricty/water/gas/telephone supplier and check if they now offer the same customer service as ten years ago?

The list goes on and, in my experience, the answer is always the same.

[dfdasein]

Thanks chaps; easyflyer for not reacting more strongly; PAXboy for reinforcing what I have been trying to bear in mind throughout.

Times are hard; but when a round trip of 24 hours or so in that tube leaves you lamenting the realization that in about 45 years of flying you have never felt less welcome and more of an object, a rethink is necessary.

There are airlines (Asian?) that I know have not sunk so low. But do I fancy going via Dubai?

[PAXboy]

dfdasein I am not unsympathetic! The problem IS bad but IS unavoidable. :(

I agree that other carriers in the middle and far east are still on their way up and so can offer better customer service. The legacy carriers of Western Europe and the USA are just that - legacy carriers.

Also, with VS, one of the often stated points in this forum is that the cabin service is variable - depending on which departing airport you use. LGW/LHR/MAN.

[wowzz]

I know it is the wrong approach, but I expect the worst and anything better is a bonus. I take my own reading matter/dvd player, my own food and drink [Pret], plus blow-up cushion and eye-shades. Unfortunately I cannot do anything about the actual seat or surrounding pax.
If the IFE is working, the food is edible, and the wine is poured on a frequent basis by male or female cc [I'm not fussy] I'm a happy bunny.
I think back 30 years when a flight to Spain cost more than my next flight to Florida and just think that things could be a lot worse.
Or should I demand a lot more for my £350, much of which goes to the government ?

[PAXboy]

Here's another fine example of NOT customer service.



Go to their web site
Sign up a subscription of their magazine for children
Get a receipt number
Two months later, first mag not arrived.
Check the credit card - money had not been taken
Go to their web site and give all the details, including their own receipt number
Get a quick automated reply saying that they will respond within two or three working days
A week has gone by and more than three months since first booking
You can ONLY email or write to them - there are no phone numbers
I won't invite suggestions - because there are thousands of companies that are equally $hit
But the National Geographic have just lost the chance to capture an inquiring young mind

:*

[Load Toad]

I don't think Economy has ever been any different.

You want more - pay for it.

You may get very good / extra service sometimes - on occasion when the flight has been not so full or quiet I've been able to demolish quite large volumes of wine.

But mostly - it's economy and it's called that for a reason.

[Hartington]

LoadToad economy has always been the bottom of the pile but it has been better. I can remember BOAC with 34 inch pitch for a start. Food is an interesting one. I think technology has probably meant that food arrives looking and tasting a bit more like food than it used to but the quantity has certainly gone down. Service is also somewhat difficult to quantify but the simple fact that crew numbers have been reduced at the same time as the number of passengers (both in abolute and load factor terms) have increased suggests a reduction in service.

I'm not suggesting that economy was ever the greatest thing since sliced bread but it isn't the same as it was.

[ZFT]

I can remember BOAC with 34 inch pitch for a start

..and there are still carriers with it today

[Mr Mac]

Maybe the lack of wine was due to them running out . We have Virgin Atlantic Captain who lives quite close who told me that on the Man - Florida flights that they have often run out of booze in economy by 40 west !.

[RevMan2]

Look at the cost of flying as a proportion of average income, compare it with 10/20/30/40 years ago and then look surprised when airlines provide the equivalent of "Never mind the quality, feel the width"

[Rush2112]

Well, we flew economy SIN - CDG - SIN last month on SQ and I have to say that the service was excellent. The seat wasn't great but I had no illusions about what I was going to get.

The IFE was fine, and my meal on the way back, a lump of beef in a red wine sauce was truely superb. The wine was only a VDP but still pretty decent and I had more than enough for the second half of the flight to be just a blur.

[Skipness One Echo]

OR just possibly it's the people and not the company.
Every society is made up of people, so when service slumps across the board we blame the company? True, it's the people that work therein that are the issue. I have been on some good trips with very basic service in seats that were less than comfortable. Why? It's a mindset thing.

When BOAC flew with 34'' pitch what
1) was the cost in economy London Airport - Idlelwild
2) the equivalent today in £ real terms on LHR-JFK in World Traveler?

[Mr Mac]

Skipiness
Flew BCAL to US in 1976 at a cost of £450 in the back. Only know because I had student job to earn fair so hence remembered the ammount. Do not know what current fairs would be to Atlanta but would guess that it would be same or indeed slightly less. As for what you get I remember ok meals, and 1 film, plus some booze, and happy crew, and I think 34in pitch but do not quote me. Totaly agree with your post re supermarket and utilaties pay more get less + do it yourself.:*

[manintheback]

Hands up, who remembers the days of PEX, APEX, Super Apex, and dodgy shops in Earls Court to bypass (illegally) the rules

Flew to Barcelona Economy for a weekend back in early 90s and cheapest ticket was over £300. Took the 24 hour bus from London to Nice as the air-fare was unaffordable. Biz class on my regular run back in mid 90s was over £3K to Toronto.

Not surprising if standards have dropped so much when real prices tickets wise must have dropped 50% or more.

[WHBM]

It's also surprising that fares have not skyrocketed compared to their price a generation ago, when you consider how much more the oil producers, government taxation (from a virtually zero base), and the self-feeding hordes of employees who masquerade as security, manage to have worked out of the cash in the system in more recent times. Whatever is left for the airline, the employees, and the manufacturers ?

[Avionker]

And, the Airbus has some shoddy finishing, but the design of the back of seat pocket by your shins on the A340-600 is something else.

I strongly suspect that Airbus have nothing to do with the seat design. Normally a customer specified item, from their seat manufacturer of choice. B/E Aerospace, Britax, Recaro, Sicma, Contour etc.

[RevMan2]

Whatever is left for the airline, the employees, and the manufacturers ?

A 0.3% margin, according to IATA.

I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that airlines are enablers in the same way that the canals, railroads, interstates, power grids and other infrastructures have been throughout modern history - not profitable per se, but with massive leverage and potential for wealth generation.

Unfortunately not necessarily for airline shareholders...

[Haven't a clue]

In 1989 I flew LHR/HKG/LHR for just under 600GBP (on some sort of super Apex, I guess). 20+ years later you can still buy return tickets for the same money if you book in advance.

In the mid 1990s I used to pay just over 3,000GBP for LHR/HKG/LHR in F for a full fare flexible ticket. Now it's around 9,000GBP.

Maybe it's time for the boys and girls in the back to pay their way :E

[Mr Mac]

I must agree with HAC as I can not see how the Y class prices are sustainable during this next oncoming recession for the airlines. Also all the comments about airline profits ignores the fact that airports are also feeling the pain and some of the regional UK ones I beleive will be lucky to survive this next year. Anybody care to open a "book" on airport closure.

[RevMan2]

They're only sustainable if the demand for unrestricted fares in Y and C holds up.
That's applying rational economic theory, of course, but as soon as you have irrationality (a carrier under Chapter 11 protection with a vital interest in cash-flow and bugger the debt levels, any state-owned carrier, any state-subsidised airline) then they set the market price and you'll have to have pretty good USP to compete at higher fare levels.

[dfdasein]

And, the Airbus has some shoddy finishing, but the design of the back of seat pocket by your shins on the A340-600 is something else.

I strongly suspect that Airbus have nothing to do with the seat design. Normally a customer specified item, from their seat manufacturer of choice. B/E Aerospace, Britax, Recaro, Sicma, Contour etc. It's a large limp sack that gawps, its outer lip reinforced with a metal rod, chafing at your shins. Never before have I chucked the safety card, in-flight entertainment guide, and duty-free brochure on the floor for the duration.

[Ancient Observer]

I have to echo the comment about variable service on legacy airlines.

Whilst that CAN be changed, do the airlines actually want it to?

[GrahamO]

Even more importantly, are flyers prepared to fund the alterations via increased ticket prices ?

No, seems to be the answer for short haul, and almost certainly not on long-haul.

[WHBM]

Are increased ticket prices the centre of the solution ? One thing immediately noticed by regular pax is that the flight attendants who are paid the most (those from the unionised legacy US carriers) are probably those who overall have the worst attitude to service and the pleasantness of the passengers' journey. Service standards seem almost inversely related to how much worldwide-located staff may be paid.

[PAXboy]

A fair point WHBM but I think the clue is more in the words 'legacy' and 'new'. Legacy companies are called that because they carry a legacy and that is often not the kind of legacy the company thinks it has - or wants!

For example, a couple of years ago I went into an old fashioned umbrella and walking stick company in London. Had they not have had the very thing I wanted (and at a good price) I would have walked out. From the moment the staff clapped eyes on me, it was an obvious 'He's not one of us'. They were lousy adverts for the shop. As it happens, I walked past the shop on tuesday and remembered all over again what terrible staff they had. I shall certainly not return or recommend them. That's a legacy company for you. :=

[HorseTrailer]

Just returned from Bangkok,Kathmandu,Lhasa and Paro [ Bhutan] flying with various airlines.Being a 194cm "freak",it was "adopt the prayingmantis position" and pray for arrival at ones destination.Best result for me was Royal Thai BKK-KTM on a B777.Had some knee room and was quite comfortable.However with most airlines these days in cattle class the wine-glass is eye-wash size.Maybe something to do with Responsible service of Alcohol?
The other airlines we flew with ,Air China [A319] Air Asia [A330] were only for smaller species of human.Air travel sure aint what it used to be,Aye!!!!?
Gotta go now and apply liniment to me shins!!!!

[Rwy in Sight]

WHBM,

You would agree with me that airlines were fairly unsuccessful at avoiding additional costs on airfares decreasing the portion of the money paid by the pax they keep. When a new tax, an increase on APD, or any other fee comes along they smile (or frown) and they pass it to the customer.

However I do agree completely with your comment that service attitude should not depend on money paid.

[Rush2112]

In 1989 I flew LHR/HKG/LHR for just under 600GBP (on some sort of super Apex, I guess). 20+ years later you can still buy return tickets for the same money if you book in advance.

In the mid 1990s I used to pay just over 3,000GBP for LHR/HKG/LHR in F for a full fare flexible ticket. Now it's around 9,000GBP.

Maybe it's time for the boys and girls in the back to pay their way :E

That's actually a fair point. SIN - CDG return on SQ is about S$1.8k econ and S$6k business. I can drink a fair amount of wine on a plane but even I am hard pushed to drink S$2k worth in 12 hours.

[Peter47]

Some areas of service have gone down such as inflight catering, then again others such as IFE have improved over time. Virgin has declined more than most over the years.

Fares have gone down dramatically. I think that I paid c£350 in 1979 to fly London - Toronto. One reason is higher load factors, so if your priority is getting a free seat next to you - tough. Also the premium cabin subsidises the economy, so lets hope that there aren't too many all business airlines set up in the future.

Also remember there are other airlines apart from Virgin available. Most American carriers offer the same standard of service as VS, which leaves BA. If you are travelling eastbound you have a much better choice of quality airlines. Its not perfect but have a look at Skytrax.

[adfly]

Spanair Bad, I'm just under 6ft and their suicidal 28 inch seat pitch meant my knees dug into a strip of metal on the seat infronts frame. Also dirty cabin including chewing gum in the armrest(the front had been broken off of it) and a collapsing seat which would not stay in the upright position. The a/c (A320) was in an awful state considering it was meant to have the 'newer' seating which looked like it was straight from the mid 90's!!

[mutt]

Newspaper advertisement....


34 in seat pitch economy.
40 kgs baggage allowance economy.
2 free changes to booking (one each way)


All this is from ERITREAN AIRLINES :)

[jayteeto]

I flew manchester - orlando return with Virgin in November. Booked over 12 months previously, Virgin changed their baggage policy allowing our baby a 20kg suitcase that wasn't originally in the deal. A raise in standards there!!
Outbound was a 747, packed out, no free economy seats. The crew worked hard on that one, but still managed to provide everything 'in the book'. No frills, a REALLY cheap price.
Inbound was an Airbus, what can I say? More room, nicer seat, great skycot and the IFE was a million times better than the 747. The crew were in short supply, but once again everything was as 'in the book'. When I wanted extra booze, I went and asked at the galley, the crew were just too busy to serve it to the seat.
My holiday for three to a nice florida hotel cost about £1500, premium economy would have added £500ish quid to the price. I would rather slum it and have the extra spending money. However it is up to you............

[siftydog]

Cattle class is definitely worse. The tech stuff's better, but the human side not. Sure it's cheaper than ever - but remember when if you wanted to change your return date by a week or two you just rang the airline....and did it.

All that aside, a 20 hour flight straight through has always and will always be just a dire experience.

[ExXB]

The mention of "Cattle" class got me thinking about what the rules were for transporting cattle. Regulation 1/2005 of the EU has these provisions:Article 3

General conditions for the transport of animals

No person shall transport animals or cause animals to be transported in a way likely to cause injury or undue suffering to them.

In addition, the following conditions shall be complied with:

(a) all necessary arrangements have been made in advance to minimise the length of the journey and meet animals' needs during the journey;

(b) the animals are fit for the journey;

(c) the means of transport are designed, constructed, maintained and operated so as to avoid injury and suffering and ensure the safety of the animals;

(d) the loading and unloading facilities are adequately designed, constructed, maintained and operated so as to avoid injury and suffering and ensure the safety of the animals;

(e) the personnel handling animals are trained or competent as appropriate for this purpose and carry out their tasks without using violence or any method likely to cause unnecessary fear, injury or suffering;

(f) the transport is carried out without delay to the place of destination and the welfare conditions of the animals are regularly checked and appropriately maintained;

(g) sufficient floor area and height is provided for the animals, appropriate to their size and the intended journey;

(h) water, feed and rest are offered to the animals at suitable intervals and are appropriate in quality and quantity to their species and size.

Luxury!

[dfdasein]

Great stuff! Will consider forwarding to Virgin. May reread "Animal Farm"!

[easyflyer83]

And remember that the cattle (ok, well their owners anyway) probably pay more to fly than us.

[TightSlot]

Is it worth pointing out that there is one fundamental difference that applies - namely that cattle don't have a choice?

:E

[1DC]

Just be happy that competition keeps the economy price down otherwise it wouldn't be possible for most people to enjoy their holidays in other parts of the world.
I took my family to Orlando last Easter, i flew an American legacy airline named after a river entrance, in economy.I used them because they were the cheapest, 6 adults and a childs' fares cost about the same as one business class ticket to Australia (or New York). I didn't expect much but the experience was adequate and good value for money. The aeroplane was clean and the seats were adequate for the journey, the cabin crew were efficient but didn't look as if they were enjoying their work so the smiles were missing. The food was basic but would keep you alive..
Overall i feel that i got what i paid for..
I travel to Australia every year to see family i try to fly business if i can get a reasonable deal, being retired i can be flexible in my timing. The price of a business fare has increased by at least £1k in the last five years but economy has stayed about the same. I think that standards of food and wine in business class have dropped in the last five years so if that has happened with a price increase the fall in standards in economy may well be greater.
I suspect i will be finding out soon because as business fares increase they are just about beyond my price bracket!!

[rethymnon]

not all airlines are poor in economy.

living near london city, we've used swiss to zurich or geneva with onward connections with edelweiss. although closely linked to swiss, their comfort and catering are several notches up.

also, our son flew malaysia long distance recently and thought it more than adequate.

it pays to shop around , not just on price but on comfort too.

[Avionker]

Is it worth pointing out that there is one fundamental difference that applies - namely that cattle don't have a choice?

Two fundamental differences really Tightslot.

Cattle don't pay your wages..... :E

[lucavigg]

Also most cattle transportation ends in them getting slaughtered.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Or milked for years:=

[glad rag]

:E "Excellent" :E

[Mark in CA]

Have been quite pleased with LH service in economy over the past 15 years. Not only is the service much better than, say, United, but the seats are, too. Best yet was on one of the new A380s, FRA to SFO. Will get to experience for the first time next month FRA to PHL on LH (A340) and SFO to ZRH on LX (A330).

[manintheback]

Also most cattle transportation ends in them getting slaughtered.


One or two flights I've taken, slaughtering the pax before take-off would have been the humane thing to do

[Noxegon]

Took an overnight flight on EI this past weekend.

Three and a half hours in, I was blasted awake by a PA announcement about duty free prices broadcast at top volume.

I doubt I was the only one woken...

[philrigger]

;)

Three and a half hours in, I was blasted awake by a PA announcement about duty free prices broadcast at top volume.

It acheived its aim then. You can't sell ciggies to sleeping folk.

But I agree with you. If people do manage to get some sleep, why can't they just leave them alone?

[dfdasein]

I am the originator of this thread. Have just done BRS-AMS-BLL-AMS-BRS with KLM. At bag drop got told to leave head of queue as it was business class (no obvious notice to that effect) and get into economy line. No one there offered place ahead of themselves. Then having progressed to head was called upon to go to where I would have been processed had I not been told to move.

Showed slight irritation but got really mad when I understood, having begged clarification, that because the plane (Fokker 70/100) was going to be pretty full, I would have to leave my "trolley" hand luggage on the ground before boarding and collect the same way at the other end. Now when you are of a certain age and the combinations and permutations of luggage logistics leave your head reeling, that is the last thing you want to be told. Then as you are lining up and about to emerge air-side into the early morning murk an announcement tells you not to leave any valuables in your hand luggage should you be depositing it on the tarmac. Cross pax exchange stories of how they had lost jewellery in similar circumstances.

Happy to report no losses at AMS, and that that one sector was the only one of four on which the separation with luggage occurred. Bags no smaller than my wheelie, perhaps bigger, had been allowed in the cabin on the Fokker.

About a four hour trip each way. Total sustenance from airline: 2x15g "mini nacho chips", 1x20g "mini cookies choc chip and orange". Pretty horrible stuff so small quantities a consolation. One cup tea, 250ml beer. On return: 2x15g of the dreaded corn snacks; but HEY! 2x185ml red Chilean.

[ShyTorque]

Not too long ago, airline travel was normally a very enjoyable part of a vacation.

Now, it's a total ordeal that must be endured to get to the vacation resort.
The simple answer is to take your business to another airline or to avoid air travel altogether if travelling on vacation.

Unfortunately, it seems that there is a downward spiral with regard to customer service, unless you can afford to pay for "First Class" or its equivalent. Some staff seem to hide behind "the regulations" as an excuse to provide a sub-standard service.

[dont overfil]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned Thomas Cook. The seat spacing in their 757s is ludicrous.

I reluctantly flew with Ryanair to Tenerife last month and was pleasantly surprised with the (relative) improvement in space at half the price.

I've always found Virgin to be very satisfactory on transatlantic flights.

[easyflyer83]

It acheived its aim then. You can't sell ciggies to sleeping folk.

But I agree with you. If people do manage to get some sleep, why can't they just leave them alone?

To be fair that just seems like a rogue crew member or someone who just got it plain wrong. Contrary to what most believe, crew usually have a conscience and will go about things in the correct manner. Even at my sales conscious airline, doing that would be deemed as a no no in employee circles if not by the airline itself.

[PAXboy]

dfdasein Your description of bad treatment is all too familiar. It is my view that this has happened by accident (not this specific trip of course, although included). The carriers - like most companies - have sought to reduce their expenditure to the minimum and outsourcing, code share (not in this case) and hub/spoke ops do that very well.

However, each of those things moves the person dealing with the customer further from the person with responsibility. By lengthening the chain of command, the feed back of negative consequences gets diluted. Since many of the 'managers' did not grow up in the business - they don't know where to look for the bad news. They are dependent on being told bad news but it is no longer in anyone's interest to report bad news. Bad news got outlawed many years ago!!!

One of the great blunders of modern mgmt was to break up chains of command. This was done with the idea that each section/department would do it's very best and so you would improve customer service and reduce monolithical hierarcies. Of course, quite the opposite has happened! I won't bore you with why and how I think that has occurred - in my view it has.

The disconnect in baggage arrangements (discussed currently in other threads) is one of the most visible examples of the broken chain. Nothing can relink the chain of customer service, other than an extreme financial meltdown of the company and a desire (and money) of the owners to rebuild it. This happened to Continental but will not happen at KLM.

[Hotel Tango]

One of the great blunders of modern mgmt was to break up chains of command. This was done with the idea that each section/department would do it's very best and so you would improve customer service and reduce monolitical hierarcies. Of course, quiet the opposite has happened! I won't bore you with why and how I think that has occurred - in my view it has.

:ok: except that I would say, "one of the MANY great blunders of modern management".

[Load Toad]

I don't think there was much better 5, 10 or 15 years ago or more.
I recall a flight on BA Philly to LHR in '92 which sucked chunks (sat in the middle, at the back, a drunk overweight colleague with me, rude cabin crew, crap food nowt t' do); I had a flight from HKG to MAN via Doha before Christmas which was as perfect as an economy flight could be.
Decent seat (by an aisle), decent grub (but nowt too fancy), ample drinks (I'm off getting drunk on flights nowadays anyway), great IFE system that worked flawlessly and a quiet, subtly lit cabin that seemed spacious enough.

[JWP2010]

The food was basic but would keep you alive..

1DC, how long did this flight last? Perhaps you should have brought emergency provisions for such a long-haul journey.

[BlueTui]

I don't think what they offered complimentary was out of order for the length of flights you undertook, unfortunately KLM catering department cannot know everyone's schedules and offer each differing passenger meal base on this. They have to base it on the actual flight as the majority of people it will be their only flight with the airline that day. There is no point Going overboard and offering a three course meal that no one eats. why this is being used as an example of bad customer service I am not sure.
You say that there was no or very little in the way of business class signage for check in, yet there was a queue you had to join at the economy line, enough people obviously found the correct line so it must of existed somewhere, yes it could be bigger or more clear but it must of been there somewhere for everyone else to find. Also the fact they filtered the economy customers to the business class check in as and when they could between biz class
Customers shows good customer service, they could of made you wait even longer and just kept the lines separate.

Case sizes? That will always cause issues on smaller aircraft but the staff asked you for a reason, it maybe that you wheelie case was not the type that could be squeezed on due to the bottom wheel design but the persons bigger rucksack next to could be squashed under the seat or in the locker. That is not bad customer service, that is being honest.

[smith]

It's also surprising that fares have not skyrocketed compared to their price a generation ago, when you consider how much more the oil producers, government taxation (from a virtually zero base), and the self-feeding hordes of employees who masquerade as security, manage to have worked out of the cash in the system in more recent times.

The competition has probably increased circa 10 fold accross the atlantic over the last 30 years or so, far more seats available hence fares remaining relatively constant in monetary terms but in real terms a lot cheaper.

I think you will find most American carriers accross the atlantic will give you free soft drinks but you have to pay for alcoholic drinks, also their stewardesses are about to, or have already, collected their bus passes!!!!

Recently flew BA Heathrow to Vegas on a 747 and I found that although standards had slipped I really enjoyed the flight. In the not so distant past all the catering items were all monogramed with the BA logo etc not so now it is just cheap plastic junk. The main meal used to have quite a rigid, aluminium, removeable lid decked out in resplendant BA colours, now the main meal resembles a 3 for 2 deal from Iceland supermarket with a peel back foil.

When the drinks came round I asked for a wine and was told wine was reserved for dinner so asked for a bloody mary and a beer and was told only one drink at a time ooops.

When dinner was served wine was poured directly from a bottle, in previous years you were provided with an individual bottle.

All in all for the price I payed (£320rtn) I thought I had a great flight, food and drink service not fantastic but adequate. But to fly through the air at 550 miles an hour for 10hours for £160 is really pretty extrordinary.

[dfdasein]

BlueTui you are missing the point, which smith gets very well. The latter reminds me that in relating the original tale which set off this thread, I forgot to say that when I stuck my plastic fork into my bit of chicken it splintered into at least three pieces (f**k).

[wannabe024]

£160 each way is incredibly cheap. Then you then calculate what proportion of that is tax it becomes simply astonishing!

When you look at it that way it becomes amazing that the airlines make any profit at all!

I'd argue that you're not just getting what you paid for, you're probably getting substantially more.

[pppdrive]

I believe there are two main points that could explain the lack of service now;
In the old days, airlines were run by staff who had come up through the ranks to their deserved high positions, whether this be pilots or ground staff. Now the airlines are run by 'accountants' who wouldn't know a 747 from a coach.
Passengers now are expecting more and more 'service' whilst demanding even cheaper fares.
So these opposing views continue to do battle. The airline wants to give less for the money and the passengers want more for less.
Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed my 40 years with various airlines, I'm very happy that I'm not involved now apart from using them to get from a to b
As an airline employee the old days really were the good old days.

[Skipness One Echo]

Now the airlines are run by 'accountants' who wouldn't know a 747 from a coach.
Accountancy is a profession separate and distinct from management. I think what you mean is that we have a lot of people who have an MBA parachuted into high level positions without the requisite experience. Now that's a fair comment but as someone aiming to do an MBA soon, a little harsh. Really good managers are as rare as Hens teeth. There's a lot more economic activity now but the talent pool of really good all round management just isn't there in the wider economy. Making money in commercial aviation when half your competitors are still cosy cartels or government funded vanity toys isn't easy.

As an airline employee the old days really were the good old days
I think what this really translates to is that into the 1980s, only people of a certain calibre were able to afford the ticket at all. Remember it was the good old airline men who met up to fix the price of the tickets. Compare a BA / Aer Lingus duopoly on London to Dublin in the 1980s to the situation today. We cannot in all honesty be getting nostalgic for that surely.

I think the major driver is that today :
People don't know what they want
Have no sense of decorum or value
Know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Try marketing to that lot !

[Cameronian]

Price is not necessarily directly related to service, charm, pitch or the whole general experience. The quite young SWMBO and I were lucky enough to get on a BCal flight from Gatwick to Kai Tak DC10 flight for £99 in October 1980. I cannot remember what everyone else was paying but it was much, much more, even for economy. It remains one of the journeys which most sticks in my memory for the sheer pleasure of the experience during the flight.

I fear that there was an element of racism involved in our getting on board in the first place. We had been unable to confirm our flight from home so decided to fly down from Glasgow on the off chance. There were perhaps sixty people queueing to check in on the deal when we got to Gatwick and it was announced that there were no seats available but one of the BCal staff came to us and asked if we were the ones who had come from Glasgow. The answer in the affirmative got the response "Ssshh and follow me"!

I REALLY miss BCal..... Their cabin staff really seemed to transmit goodwill. I still see that on easyJet, however politically unacceptable that may be to some. Even the BCal pilots seemed to enjoy the Glasgow to Gatwick flight more than did the Heathrow shuttle pilots.

[PAXboy]

S.O.E. has it spot on, and we have said this before in these forums. The REALLY bad news is that - almost EVERY company is in the same situation. I don't just mean airlines but ALL commercial companies. Further, the expectations of what govt can do fall into the same category.

As Western civilization collapses we are indeed living in 'interesting times'. Of course, the Western world will recover and gain the upper hand once again - in about 750 years! But global warming may well have taken over by then, so enjoy what you can whilst you can.

By the way, reputable people are reported in the UK press today as stating that the country is already in recession. But then, we could all have told them that months ago!! This was always going to be a double dip recession.