PERTH 6/12

[RU/16]

So we have a little weather in Perth and the whole QF operation comes to a standstill!
VB etc seem to still operate?
PA says airport is closed yet VB still operate?
WTF is going on? thank christ it doesnt snow in Perth!
How do they operate a service out of DRW in the wet if they have to shut the place down in a storm?
Not a good look QF!
:ugh:

[SimonBl]

To be fair, it's not just QF. It appears that the whole airport was shut down due to storms. Reports of people sitting on landed aircraft for up to 8 hours, which, if true is just ridiculous, IMO.

Surely there were long enough breaks between lightning activity to allow ground handling?

[RU/16]

Maybe I need to be a little more obvious for you.
the only aircaft holding and delayed were QF and Jetstar. VB etc were getting away!

[SimonBl]

Okay, maybe I misunderstood you. I didn't realise you were referring to departures, my error. I am referring to arrivals :-)

[TWT]

Similar thing happened in MEL recently on a flight I was on.All pax boarded,doors shut then we just sat there for 3-4 hours before pushing back.I felt for the passengers just arrived after long flights stuck on aircraft on taxiways for hours.All to do with OH&S I believe.No workers outside while lightning around.Problem was a line of storms kept arriving so no time between storms to get things moving again.

[Capt Fathom]

What is your beef RU/16?

[SimonBl]

Video from Channel Nine news on this story

[mince]

RU 16:-

Delays hapen in Darwin too because of storms.

Ever heard of a 5 mile warning?

[Cost Index]

It seems QF ground staff have far more restrictive requirements than the likes of Aerocare when it comes to being safe. Minimum 15 aircraft lined up? Ridiculous, when other operators found windows to service their aircraft.

[oldpinger]

RU
Get a grip, it's weather, it happens. You want to be the person to tell someone

their son or husband got cooked by lightning on the tarmac?

[SimonBl]

And just for balance video from ABC news, ABC News, Perth 6/12/11 - Storms 'trap' people on flights on Vimeo

oldpinger, I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that there were no lightning clear periods available for ground handlers to accept aircraft and allow their unloading at air bridges, alleviating having to sit on a plane for longer than your flight.

I totally accept the need to 'be safe', but surely this is going overboard. It simply smacks of the Safety Police going totally OTT.

[bankrunner]

Similar thing happened in MEL recently on a flight I was on.All pax boarded,doors shut then we just sat there for 3-4 hours before pushing back.I felt for the passengers just arrived after long flights stuck on aircraft on taxiways for hours.All to do with OH&S I believe.No workers outside while lightning around.Problem was a line of storms kept arriving so no time between storms to get things moving again.

A flight I was on recently got stuck waiting at the gate for about an hour at SY because ML had only just reopened after being closed due wx, and a huge amount of traffic from SY and elsewhere was already enroute.

[OhForSure]

These weather ground holds all started after a guy was struck by lightning at SYD during a storm. Ever since then it's been taken very seriously. Can't speak specifically for PER, but as far as I understand, ALL operators should be held to the same standards. Lights on = nobody on the ramp. However some ground staff don't seem to care or notice... VA/QF or any other operator shouldn't be encouraging their staff to disregard the airport warnings. :ugh:

[Car RAMROD]

So we have a little weather in Perth and the whole QF operation comes to a standstill!
VB etc seem to still operate?


Ah, no.

Virgin did cancel at least one flight to Port Hedland today due weather.

[Cactusjack]

Lightning is just one issue. The flow on effect from the initial delays compounded the problem. And don't forget on top of that is the fact that Perth international airport is a chicken**** outfit, not long ago it was rated 8th worst international airport in the world!
Now, where are those mining profits again, a squirt of that money could go a long way........

[oldpinger]

Oh for sure,

Yeah that's what they mentioned as the reason for the hold. This was compounded by some bloke leaving the aircraft to go home in the short period they boarded the remaining passengers on our flight. They then had to find his bags. Would have helped if he had told the crew at the time that was leaving! Having spent 12 hours now at the airport-waiting for bags to get through the mess caused by all the aircraft- i'm getting more philosophical about it all.

[bankrunner]

Wouldn't be surprised to see the mining companies get jack of PH, and build their own airport for FIFO.

Didn't one of the mining bosses offer to bring some of his heavy equipment to PH and build a second runway for free?

[Keg]

SimonBl, out of interest, how much do you know about airlines and schedules?

Let me lay it out for you. Let's say the bays are full- not an unusual prospect in Perth- when the 5nm alert occurs. The alert lasts for 40 min- not unusual either. In the mean time, five aircraft arrive for those bays that were scheduled to be vacated by then. So aircraft 1-5 are now up to 40 min late as are the arriving flights. Those arriving flights all arrive on bay at the same time 40 min late. Half an hour later the ramp goes off due T/S again for half an hour. These aircraft are now more than an hour late departing and in the meantime, another bunch of arrivals are more than an hour arriving at the gate- with the next arrivals landing as they park.

In short, when you're operating a terminal at virtually full capacity- as most Qantas terminals do- then it doesn't take many thunderstorms before there are going to be multiple hours of delays to arriving and departing aircraft.

Why doesn't this affect DJ to the same extent? They're probably not operating at terminal capacity like Qantas is at Perth. They have more bays available and a lower flight frequency thus not compounding the problem as quickly.

The longest delay I've heard recorded thus far was Newman- Perth. 1:35 flight time, 8:24 to get from touchdown to blox.

[Capn Bloggs]

For you heros that like dodging lightning bolts, I was told one strike today was 60m from a parked aircraft and another hit a nearby building and took out the PA system.

I suppose, RU/16, you play golf under a thunderstorm? :cool:

[TWT]

There's a claim in this article that an SAA A340 was struck by lightning at 1330

Thousands stranded at Perth Airport - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/12254072/thousands-stranded-at-perth-airport/)

[JetRacer]

Get back to work Capn Bloggs!! :E

I saw the SAA A340 fly over Perth Airport when a lightning bolt went cloud to cloud beneath it...

[Capn Bloggs]

The bloke lying on the baggage thingee gets my Darwin Award nomination for December...

[SimonBl]

Keg, thanks for the considered response. In answer to your direct question, not a lot. I am beginning to see that I may have jumped a bit too high here, so I apologise to an extent. I still think 6-8 hours is excessive, but see how it could have got to that state.

[Keg]

Just a bit of updated info. From my understanding- and this gleaned from a bunch of different sources including the news- the airport was on a 5nm for most of the day from 1000 onwards. Now THAT is unusual in terms of having T/S with lightening around for that length of time and it certainly wouldn't take long for a back log of 15-20 aircraft just for the Qantas terminal. Once they say 'go', to turn all those aeroplanes around is going to take a bloody long time with only 5-7 gates available. Depending on the aircraft types would depend on the gates available, etc.

Just 'one of those days' I guess. Glad I wasn't out in it.

[YPJT]

Wouldn't be surprised to see the mining companies get jack of PH, and build their own airport for FIFO.
where would you suggest?

[caneworm]

anyone know what happend to the pax on qf777 who had a cardio event ?

[Captain Gidday]

Laid him out on a 'baggage thingy' and jump started him. :)

[Red Jet]

qf777

....they wish:ok:

[hewlett]

"copa airlines embraer 190 gets struck by lightning"

Plane Gets Struck By Lightning - YouTube

Watch the r/h nose wheel just after the lightning hits the tail. Lucky no one was on the headset at this time. Puts it into perpective!

[UPPERLOBE]

IIRC during the storm when they guy in SYD was struck the Weather Bureau reported that the lightning strike count within the airport perimeter during that storm went over 4000.

As you saw in the Copa clip strikes can happen in 'apparently' safe conditions.

As a study into the ramifications of ordering or allowing people to stay outdoors during thunderstorm activity the MOCK TRIAL trial of a real QF Duty Maintenance Manager was held at the QF SDT. It was conducted by real lawyers and Police prosecutors. The DMM was accused of culpability arising out of the death by lightning strike of an apprentice engineer who was out on the ramp during a thunderstorm.

I can tell you that after that little glimpse into the legal process the storm warning & ramp clearance policies were strictly adhered to during every future instance.

[dr dre]

Is this actually the case?

Qantas passengers fume as storm creates chaos - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/12256216/qantas-passengers-fume-as-storm-creates-chaos/)



Safety provisions in the Qantas baggage handlers and engineers' awards prevent staff working on the tarmac when there is lightning within 5km of the airport.
Other airlines - whose staff work under different provisions - were unaffected, although the weather played havoc with arrivals and departures.


This seems like an unusual thing to have in an award. Last time I was at an airport when the Aerodrome Lightning Warning was issued all staff ran for cover, and no one was allowed outside til the warning passed. Now VA and others apparently have an exemption to that and let staff work in lightning storms ? Or is it just G. Thomas having a go at those "over unionised QF employees creating havoc for passengers by having outdated work practices compared to their Virgin counterparts" again?

[Captain Sand Dune]

I suppose, RU/16, you play golf under a thunderstorm?
Hmmmm...seems he's gone now.............

[Conductor]

I can't speak for engineers and baggage handlers but for tech crew, it is policy contained in the operational suite of manuals: "Operations during Thunderstorms (Including Ramp Operations)" and it is published by Flight Technical. Nothing to do with the award.

[dodgybrothers]

Fancy GT not letting the facts get in the way of a good story....

[Oakape]

Lightning can strike well ahead of, or behind, a storm system. 5 kms is really not enough to ensure safety. See this article -

Lightning Detectors Provide Early Thunderstorm Warning and Save Lives (http://www.home-weather-stations-guide.com/lightning-detectors.html)


Lightning is also unpredictable - even sneaky. While most strikes occur close to the rain, hail and winds of a thunderstorm, a significant proportion occur well before or after the main part of the storm has passed. For more information visit the Lightning page. (http://www.home-weather-stations-guide.com/lightning.html)

Strikes 10 miles (16km) or more ahead of the storm are not uncommon, and while the storm may be visible in open country, at this distance thunder may not be heard. These sorts of strikes are often referred to as "bolts from the blue"
(my emphasis)

I have observed a lightning strike just over my back fence when the associated storm was about 10 miles away. It was a very small bolt, but probably could have killed. There was no associated thunder. I was mowing the lawn at the time, rushing to finish before the rain. Needless to say, I packed up immediately & hightailed it into the house!

I think this could be an explaination as to why people get struck on golf courses, on the beach, in the park, etc. They think that because the storm is in the distance they are safe. It would also explain why a number of these victims survive, with the lightning bolt being very small.

[dr dre]

But were the staff members of other airlines actively working outside on the ramp whilst an aerodrome lightning warning was active at Perth yesterday? If so it reflects very poorly on these other companies for allowing this to happen, and on the staff for choosing to be out in the open, even though the storms seem to be long way away.
My thoughts are that the airport authorities would have lifted the warnings if there was a chance to do so, even for a few minutes, to allow some waiting aircraft the chance to park at the bay and connect an aerobridge.

Or are Qantas just being overcautious?

[Keg]

At Sydney if the lights are flashing, they flash all over the airport and everyone is off the ramp no matter what company they work for. I've not heard of something like this being in an award. It would be an OHS issue first and foremost and it wouldn't matter if the award said you can work outside, it won't absolve a manager's duty of care of the individual.

[F.Nose]

My thoughts are that the airport authorities would have lifted the warnings if there was a chance to do so, even for a few minutes, to allow some waiting aircraft the chance to park at the bay and connect an aerobridge.

That did happen however the windows of opportunity were to small. The problem was all of the parking bays/bridges were occupied so aircraft had to be dispatched before any waiting aircraft could park and disembark pax.

[DutchRoll]

Guys, the 5nm warning is Qantas company policy. The 5nm tarmac shutdowns are directed from the Sydney operations centre based on weather radar. Whether this is sensible or not, and whether they could've done it better, well that's another issue. But they're the facts.

Yes, there was a LOT of lightning in those storms. We sat there, engines running for 5 hours (and we got off lightly compared to others), watching it and waiting for the tarmac to open and the backlog to clear. It was a spectacular display at times. One outbound crew relayed to me how passengers were whining in the gate lounge that they should be allowed to board, until a lightning bolt struck the near the aerobridge with a nice loud crack. Then they went real quiet!

Re the SAA airbus, don't know whether it was struck by lightning (though one of our 767s certainly was struck during approach), but the media report is not entirely correct. It had two burst/flat tyres. It was not an indication problem. How do I know that? It turned off the runway right in front of us after landing and sat there while the fire crews and their ground engineer inspected it. The deflated tyres were clearly visible, one on the left bogie and one on the centre. That incident, plus several medical issues on various aircraft, just added to a really crap day.

It was definitely one of those "let's chuck on another 6 tonnes" days! There were indeed some very agitated and anxious passengers, but feedback was that the pax, despite a few eyeing off the doors & slides, were generally very happy with how the crews handled it all. A few PAs stating that "we share your frustration and pain" (which was quite genuinely true!) seemed to do the trick.

[Keg]

...but feedback was that the pax, despite a few eyeing off the doors & slides,

I only did 3:30 in MEL a couple of months back and it was ME who was starting to eye off the doors and slides. The overhead hatch was being opened much more frequently. I even questioned whether I could get out and then climb back in and re-stow the rope! :ok: That they were doing so after up to 8 1/2 hours is no surprise.

[rh200]

How does it go from a liability/saftey view point all those pax in there for that long, dvt etc, can they get up and move around etc etc?

How much booze is carried, and what about the dunny filling up:E

presuming a few of those aircraft arn't long range

[Icarus2001]

So if there seems to be agreement (generally) that staff should stay off the ramp during the passage of a thunderstorm why is this philosophy not observed in other ares of human endeavour?

The storms were well past but aircraft could not get to a gate so sat with engines running! Three hours after the weather cleared. Why were pax not disembarked by roll up stairs and put on one of the many buses driving around?

[TWT]

How much booze is carried, and what about the dunny filling uphttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Stuck at the gate for 4hrs in MEL,we were given water,cheese/crackers and an apple.No alcohol.I thought that was a wise decision.I had no complaints,the available snacks for the intended 90 minute flight were dished out.

[Keg]

The storms were well past but aircraft could not get to a gate so sat with engines running! Three hours after the weather cleared. Why were pax not disembarked by roll up stairs and put on one of the many buses driving around?


Park where? How many spare busses are there? How many spare sets of air stairs? Who drives them? Where are those people and what are their other duties?

[Icarus2001]

I think it is called contingency planning.

Parking - On the acres of tarmac in front of what will be Terminal WA.
Keg the aircraft were already PARKED on taxiways, 600 lane, anywhere ATC could put them. The aircraft had space on the airport but pax could not get off.

Buses - There were quite a few orange airport buses airside yesterday. I counted five at least.

Staff - Well since nothing was moving at the terminal, ramp staff MAY be available to move stairs to the parked aircraft.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure everyone was doing their best with what they had to deal with, which was a very prolonged storm but there seems to be a lack of planning to deal with these events.

The Qantas terminal was shut down last year by a fire warning system. So nothing moved. Where was the contingency planning?

Remember Sydney airport early this year or late last year.

We seem to have no plan for these events which happen with monotonous regularity. As someone said above, because QF terminal is already at capacity it doesn't take much to grind to a halt.

The irony is WAC would have done very nicely from parking charges yesterday.

[DutchRoll]

I personally think that despite mother nature being the root cause, there were many lessons which could be learned from yesterday.

However whether they will be learned, given my experience at QF, is something I seriously doubt.

[flightfocus]

Can someone explain why when you are faced with an extended delay waiting like yesterday the engines have t keep running?

From memory an A330 burns about a tonne an hour at ground idle. If we were all serious about the global warming circus, you would shut down and run on APU.

Is this possible? If not why?

Dutch Roll, How many tonnes does your flying aluminium tube of choice burn sitting around waiting for somewhere to go?

[craigieburn]

Don't worry about it, Juliars carbon tax will fix it:mad:

[topend3]

The irony is WAC would have done very nicely from parking charges yesterday.

Carparking?

Gates were flung open midway through the crisis allowing free parking. Buses were put on when the taxis ran out.

[gimpgimp]

Few years ago I had a ground engineer take a hit through the headset mic during pushback at BNE. Burnt his lips, he was off work for two weeks.
The storm was + 5nm away. Safety before schedule can be a huge pain but you cant have it both ways, not in a enlightened country/airline that strives to match the worlds best practise. Just look at the carbon tax. It all costs one way or the other. Delays delays delays. I do agree that we should be able to get things moving again a lot quicker somehow.

[DutchRoll]

flightfocus, craigieburn:

1) Were you there? Did you witness the fact that ATC were having to shuffle planes around Perth airport to make space for others, or to allow at short notice several aircraft whose passengers developed medical emergencies such as chest pains, pregnancy complications, and diabetic glycemic attacks to get re-prioritised?

2) Are you aware of Qantas operational policy regarding starting engines without a fireguard?

3) Are you aware of the electrical load-shedding characteristics and other technical implications of running on APU only with an aircraft choc-a-block full of passengers?

Some aircraft did shut engines down as a matter of operational necessity.

If we were all serious about the global warming circus,

Don't worry about it, Juliars carbon tax will fix it

If neither of you have the professional courtesy, intelligence, or common decency to keep politics from another thread out of this discussion which involves operational matters and an unusual, difficult and complex situation, then I do not have the inclination to answer any further questions or engage in any further discussions about yesterday's events with either of you. :mad:

[Icarus2001]

Gates were flung open midway through the crisis allowing free parking. Buses were put on when the taxis ran out.

My humble apologies to WAC. I must be less cynical. A thoughtful gesture on their part.

[nitpicker330]

Boy you people do get worked up about nothing.

This happens regularly in Asia, earlier this year I waited 2 hrs for a open gate at CLK during a Red TS warning 😄

Yes we shut down and re started later, as did everybody else hanging around taxiway Bravo.

CLK has had a TS warning system working well for years as has SIN. :ok:

We've had 400's and 777's taxy out in JFK and 8 hours later finally return to the Gate due to bad Snow falls.......these things happen.

[my oleo is extended]

The 5nm rule is generally a fairly well defined safety margin. But as most would know, weather doesn't necessarily play by the rule book. I personally had a colleague in the late 80's who was headsetting an aircraft. Lightning hit the tail and discharged through his headset, he never worked again, and he permanently lost all his sense of smell, taste and body temperature, by which I mean his body does not feel the elements of hot nor cold. He gets sunburnt in summer but doesn't sweat or feel the heat, he gets sick in winter and always wears a jumper to protect his chest yet he doesn't actually feel the cold. He is a permanent emotional wreck almost 3 decades later. His ears permanently ring, he has weird ass alergic reactions to seafood (only started after he was struck, and some specialists think it has something to do with metals in the fish). When I visited him in hospital after the accidnet, and for weeks later, he looked like a fish as every bare part of his body that had either rain drops or sweat drops on it when he got struck caused a burn where the droplet of water became charged/heated, hence the scale like appearance.
Later I studied meteorology and also learned that when we make the call to evacuate the ramp it is because the storm cell is within 5nm, the cell. However an electrical storms preceding anvil can be 20 miles ahead of the cell, and the anvil can actually produce a lightning strike also. Radar screens that we monitor on the BOM are roughly 10 minutes out of sync, in other words what we are viewing is around 10 mins old. If a storm is fast moving like you often get in Brisbane and it is moving at 60km p/h then you may be in more danger than you realize.
I once argued with SYD Ops Center who make the call when to evacuate the ramp. Their radar screen was showing a storm 9nm away from BNE airport yet I personally watched a bolt strike a hanger. I pulled the guys of the ramp and had to offer up a 'please explain' the next day as to why I 'unnecessarily shut the ramp without SYD Ops permission' adding around 15 mins worth of supposedly unnecessary delays in BNE. I told management to get fu#ked and yet I still managed to keep my job. An unlikely scenario in today's narcissistic environment. Screw OTP, lives come first.

People like GT are absolutely unintelligent, uninformed wastes of space. He is not Mr aviation, knows little about 'real' aviation and should should be sent out on ramp during an electrical storm with Joyce to marshall in aircraft using copper wands !
Airports are notorious for lightning strikes - Flat ground, tall lights, towers, buildings and aircraft tails, lots of metallic surfaces (saw a bolt hit a baggage barrow that was parked INSIDE the baggage room at BNE while all the rampies were huddling under cover supposedly safe, the bolt then deflected into an electrical conduit running along the bag room ceiling frying the baggage belts, lights, pretty much everything, resulting in 1 week without power, everything handled manually and a damage bill of over 100k).

The point of my mumblings? There is a damn good reason why the Tarmac is evacuated during a storm. If it is a slow moving cell/line of cells then the delay is even longer. Combine that with the other well articulated delay explanations here explaining the other compounding factors which caused an even more protracted delay and you get to see some pretty accurate facts. Naturally the media, narcisstic managers and ignorant arrogant self centered passengers will not either understand this nor care for the true facts. To them I raise a firmly elevated middle finger salute.:mad:

[RATpin]

Pardon my ignorance folks,does perth have blue strobe lights like brisbane etc when storms are approaching?

[HF3000]

I always thought the strobes were based on whether lightning had been detected within 5NM. So I'm surprised by many of the posts here which indicate that they are based only on weather radar indicating a storm cell within 5NM.

Anyone in the know that can clarify?

[dingle]

No they do not have the lights. The call to get off the ramp is made from Sydney or from the engineering manager using a lightning detector.

[my oleo is extended]

HF3000
I always thought the strobes were based on whether lightning had been detected within 5NM. So I'm surprised by many of the posts here which indicate that they are based only on weather radar indicating a storm cell within 5NM.
Anyone in the know that can clarify?

Different ports/airlines adopt different procedures in some aspects.
For example in Brisbane, BAC do not issue any storm warnings. This is tasked to the operator.
The airport does have blue lights, white lights and a siren. If you are Qantas for example, Ops in Sydne make the call, they will phone through Phase 1, 2 and 3 alerts to the Brisbane Movement Control supervisor who then manually activates either the blue or white light. Likewise, the supervisor doesn't upgrade or downgrade the warning unless advised to do so by SYD Ops.
I still think it is not the safest process because although they are monitoring doppler radar which is very accurate in itself, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes what the radar depicts is not what is actually taking place. I have seen a storm cell around 10 nm away from the airport yet it has dropped lightning bolts onto a runway or hanger, and that can only be noted if you are at the actual airport visibly observing this.
Some airlines actually have a BOM resource sit in their Ops deaprtments during hightened weather risk times of the year such as mornings in winter due to fog and afternoon/evenings during summer months due to storm season which is an additional safety defense, but again, not as accurate as standing at the airport.


See below:

Thunderstorm Alert - Phase one (1): This is where the initial airport warning is received of possible thunderstorms. All staff are notified immediately;
Thunderstorm Alert - Phase two (2): This is where further advice is provided that the thunderstorms are heading towards the airportand are within 16km distance from the airport. All staff are notified immediately;
Thunderstorm Operations Shutdown Phase three (3): This is where further advice is provided that the thunderstorms are within the 8km distance from the airport and that an ‘Operations Shutdown’ must be declared immediately. All staff are notified immediately and the tarmac evacuated.
GT, Now you can go and report the facts more accurately you pompous nugget.

[Joker89]

I always find it interesting that it's safe enough to land a jet in the vicinity of TS but not safe to unload it.

[Willie Nelson]

We were on the tarmac for 3 and half hours awaiting bay 9. Throughout the entire time if we could not see lighting in front of us we could certainly see storm clouds with heavy rain behind us.

On each occasion when it seemed to be clearing another cell would commence it's light show.

We kept passengers well informed with regular updates, let them use their mobiles, ran a limited cabin service free of charge and surprise surprise most passengers thanked us as they eventually got off the aircraft. This for me reinforces the notion that if people know and understand why things are happening the way they are, they can empathise and cut you some slack.

[Angle of Attack]

Hey Joker I would rather be in a landing jet struck by lightning than sitting on the tarmac struck by lightning!

[theheadmaster]

Joker,

It is the safety of the ramp workers that is the issue, not the aircraft occupants. In the aircraft you are effectively in a Faraday cage; on the ramp with a headset lead or other equipment you may be a lighting rod.

[Capn Bloggs]

More in "The West" (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/12265930/passengers-sleep-on-airport-floor-for-second-night/)
Thomas still not clarifying who's lighting rule it is: Unions or Qantas...

[Cactusjack]

Thomas still not clarifying who's lighting rule it is: Unions or Qantas... It's not up to that f:mad:d to clarify anything.
Unions don't impose 'lightning rules'. The process that is adopted with the 3 warning phases (I prefer to call them risk phases) came about through consultation between the aviation industry and the BOM in the 90's and agreed upon in principle. Hence the standard km/mile measurement. Mr Thomas can't clarify anything specific because he is not fully in the aviation loop, which is a good thing. There are some technical aspects of the industry that is better understood by and within the indsutry itself, and regardless of what Thomas writes he is and will only ever be an armchair critic, and a f:mad:d to boot.

At the end of the day the 'lightning' process or standard has been adopted by the aviation industry and agreed upon for the sole benefit of safety. If Mr Thomas is trying to draw a bow between lightning related delays and unions then he is an even bigger f:mad:d than I thought.
I am pretty fired up about this. Operational staff or matter of factly the airlines do not have to justify their actions or decisions to the media or any other arena of scrutiny, especially when a decision is based upon safety. Delays were encountered for a number of reasons in Perth, with safety being one of those reasons, these are the facts, that is all that needs explaining, the rest is history.
This thread along with the actual operational and technical knowledge is a good enough way to explain the facts publicly. More accurate and factual than Messr Thomas biased scribblings and uneducated gossip supplied shisen.

Joker89 - Are you f:mad:g serious. For your benefit, and I cannot believe you are so stupid, ask yourself this 'why are you safer inside a car than outside a car during a thunderstorm ?' If you can work that out, then apply the same principle to an aircraft. If after all that pondering the penny drops and you work out the answer please phone G Thomas and try to explain that to him, and explain it to the dopey ass selfish public too stupid to understand even the most basic safety facts. Why are all these nuptys complaining anyway, I bet they are the first to run for cover at home, at the beach or on the golf course when bolts start dropping from the sky??
F:mad:ing Nimrods.

[Joker89]

My point was, the storm cells are far enough away in order to make a safe approach but to close for the ground handlers. Im not saying they should work when lightning is around. Having been struck by lighting when flying i can't say it was a fun experience. Heard a story once of a lightning strike setting off the fire bottles and causing a flame out.

Edit, calm down catus. Lightning brought down a chopper in the north sea. Pilots make loads of decisions regarding weather avoidance. I was trying to make a comparison to people's level of risk they are willing to accept. I've flown through weather when others have turned around. Am I right because I survived or were they making a better decision. Just food for thought.

[Capn Bloggs]

This thread along with the actual operational and technical knowledge is a good enough way to explain the facts publicly. More accurate and factual than Messr Thomas biased scribblings and uneducated gossip supplied shisen.
CJ, unfortunately, the public doesn't tread Prune. It's pretty poor form that GT, having made thinly veiled accusations on the blame game yesterday has refused to clarify who's policy it is to not work during TS.

[QFdude]

GT is back at it on the radio with his ramblings again this morning and unfortunately I think the general public will believe him. He even had the hide to insinuate it may have been industrially related.

However, after being amongst it on the taxiways and Tarmac on Tuesday his view is very naive and sheltered (pardon the pun).

Lucky he's only a commentator...... or attitudes like his will only increase the risk of injury and or fatalities.

I've never seen people scramble so quickly when a lightning bolt struck near the Tarmac while it was open at about 3:00pm.

[SimonBl]

To be fair, one of my work colleagues was on a flight that was stuck on the ground, away from a gate, for 2 hours or so and he said that they saw numerous ground strikes in the vicinity of the airfield and the aircraft whilst waiting - spectacular and scary, were his words. So, they weren't ansty about sitting on their bums at all.

[Rabbitwear]

Apparently the virgin staff were threatened with dismissal if they refused to work outside.

[gobbledock]

Apparently the virgin staff were threatened with dismissal if they refused to work outside. If true then it is nice to see Virgin's take on 'just culture'. But of course CASA wont be looking at that.

[aveng]

I was talking to WAC's "safety one" (safety officer leader) he explained that whilst WAC considered the airport closed due to the lightning - they have no jurisdiction as to what aerocare etc do ie. continue working. He said it is entirely up to the companies own procedures.:ugh:

To all not in the West - and to Geoffrey Thomas who obviously doesnt have a cubical near a window - it really was an unusually violent storm that hung over the city for ages. Perth recorded all its December rain in a couple of hours.

SAFETY BEFORE SCHEDULE - Qantas's own line - not any unions.

[Angle of Attack]

Lightning took out the terminals PA system and even the runway lights for around 30mins, even when there was a break in the storms we left the aircraft, and as we were going down the stairs the aircraft on the bay beside us was struck. There was massive amounts of strikes around the airport. Yes a nightmare for sure but I wouldnt have wanted to be ramp staff working outside during the event.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I spoke to GT yesterday morning and explained that the TS policy is a Qantas policy not an award condition. He said he would correct the article and hasn't, is it true he was blaming us on radio today?

[Scamp Damp]

Apparently the virgin staff were threatened with dismissal if they refused to work outside.

I think you mean AEROCARE staff.

[Cactusjack]

Steve, no offense but have you caught some 'cloud cuckoo land' from Joyce?
Thomas is a biased nupty. I told you to stop dialing 1800f:mad:wit, see what happens? You wasted your time phoning him as your version and 'straightening out of the facts' is not what he wishes to hear, it is too simple and wouldn't sell stories....embellished bulls#it sells stories.

I have said it before, journalists (excluding Phelan and Sandilands) are parasites. Bulls#it is the host that they feed off.

[topend3]

Apparently the virgin staff were threatened with dismissal if they refused to work outside.

What a load of tripe! And you would know judging by your location???!!! hahahahaha:ok:

[QFdude]

Steve, 882 6PR at around 9:15 to 9:20 on the 8/12.

Not so much blaming, but would not rule it out. From memory I think his reference was "grey", when talking about who was to blame.

[Captain Gidday]

Yep, blame it on Bryan Grey and Compass. There were none of these problems before that.

[YPJT]

Apparently still a lot of bags to be reunited with their owners.

[MACH082]

Well I hope GT is happy with himself.

The industry he loves (since going over a DC3 as a kid) is full of people who think this self proclaimed 'expert' is a tosspot.

I for one have boycotted the Australian Aviation magazine as long as this clown writes (rambles) for them.

I suggest any other self respecting industry person do the same.

[nomorecatering]

I just have to say something about the comment of Viegin staff ..ie Aerocare staff being threatened with dismissal if they evacuated the open areas durng a thunderstorm.

I work for Aerocare in SYD for 5 years, and was part of many many evacuation from the ramp.

In that time, I was NEVER asked to go out in the open during a storm, it was never said or even implied by Aerocare management about disciplinary action for not going out in the open during a storm.

Now, either something has drastically changed, or someone is telling porkies.

[ranmar850]

It was quite an unusual weather pattern, in that it started at night and just kept coming nearly all day. I was in a meeting in the city all day, the thunder was almost continuous. Short gaps of less than 30 minutes between cells. Cleared late in the afternoon, I ran into our mine manager, he had spent 5 1/2 hours parked in a taxiway after his flight in from Newman. Philosophical about it, he could see strikes on the tarmac as they sat there. Perth thunderstorms normally don't hang around very long at all, as a rule.
The 5NM rule seems far too close, we have a rule on the minesite that all operations cease when a strike is registered at 15 KM, and, even then, it can be right over you by the time everyone is in. And, as so much of the passenger transfer domestic side is done by bus/on foot due to inadequate facilities during peak periods, it is sensible to delay during such conditions, IMO.
Mind you, I was downstairs in the bar with the meeting finished while he was still stranded airside.:ok:

[flying_drumman]

I just have to say something about the comment of Viegin staff ..ie Aerocare staff being threatened with dismissal if they evacuated the open areas durng a thunderstorm.

I work for Aerocare in SYD for 5 years, and was part of many many evacuation from the ramp.

In that time, I was NEVER asked to go out in the open during a storm, it was never said or even implied by Aerocare management about disciplinary action for not going out in the open during a storm.

Now, either something has drastically changed, or someone is telling porkies.

I don't know what AeroCare you know, but the one over in PER has quite a horrendous and shameful culture. (You should see the incident/accident list dating back to October!)

ACC was keeping tabs on them (and others) all day on Tuesday.
I know of at least one ACC sup who was utterly furious that aerocare supervisors were keeping staff on the ramp when we were recording lightning strikes within the Western Quadrant of the airport (ie - Domestic/regional terminals).
Also wanting answers was the Perth Airport CEO.

Still, was quite a sight to behold - lets see what happens with tomorrows supposed storms!