View Full Version : Aircrewman Exodus
As the RAF continues to string its RW crews along with no announcements over Puma 2 and Merlin transition how long until the crews start to flee? With no reengagement, no promotion, no PAS, no job security and no crossover options the future looks bleak! Oh and pensions are now looking shaky! The RAF was viewed by many as a career, the unfortunate reality is now its becoming a job!
Anyone else fancy being a 22 year time served unqualified jobseeker? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
Door Slider
5th Dec 2011, 15:42
A couple of points:
Promotion was not as bad as some predicted it would be this year. It is still possible to signed on as long as your not a waster, PAS granted is very thin on the ground but still possible.
The Puma 2 LEP is not dead and buried yet, I'm still optimistic. More chinooks on the way, A400M, clearly life is not brilliant but in comparison with some it could be worse!
Most of the switched on crewman I know have spent 22 years getting qualified whether it be civil licences or business degrees etc to ensure they do have marketable skills on the outside.
But it is clear from your post you prefer the doom and gloom outlook on life!
How about the unfortunate group either in their reengagement window who were all keen to pursue a full military career but are unlikely to be reengaged? Commands idea of an "easy leaver"!
Furthermore a significantly smaller order of CH47's and a massive back log on the FW side of the house waiting to fill A400M / Voyager slots may indicate not so many options there.
It may be sound like doom and gloom however it is perhaps a realistic outlook.
The NCA branch, and I refer to all of the trades, is not a happy place.
high spirits
5th Dec 2011, 19:04
Just a minor correction to your first post. The future of Puma 2 is not in the hands of the RAF and hence they are not stringing anyone along. I agree with your assessment though. The longer this goes on, the more resentment will build.
Graf said:
"The RAF was viewed by many as a career, the unfortunate reality is now its becoming a job!"
That may be the case for today's growbags, but not for ground crew - for many of whom it became a job in 1997!
Door Slider
5th Dec 2011, 22:30
Picture "rosey" well of course it's not but I don't recall saying it was in my post. The original poster claimed that promotion, re-engagement and PAS was "nil" thats not true, it's still out there for people who work hard and deserve it!
The RAF "stringing" people along? Really or do you not just think that there are many jobs/ types and trades in limbo and until various PR are decided then that's the way it is. Well done your a skilled crewman but what makes you different?
Yes the future sucks, yes I really do wish life was better, yes I wish we had more chinooks, the merlin and puma had a long term future in the RAF but just tell me how many crewmen were made redundant in tranche 1?
globefan
6th Dec 2011, 17:21
Round of applause for your wise words Door Slider. Unfortunately as you speak the truth there is no place for you on this rumour network......
My first rebut is in regards to crewman redundancies on tranche 1. To the best of my knowledge there was 0. I respond with how many AEOps were deployed on operations at that time? Within a generic branch surely redundancies should be role specific? With no Nimrods make all those crews redundant. Likewise if Merlin or Puma goes make those crews redundant. So on and so forth. Otherwise the option is continue as we are to clog up our training pipeline with crossovers to the point ab initios end up with anything up to 2 to 3 year holds leaving a significant gap to hit in the future. Perhaps the younger generation can hang on long enough to see a large FRI in 7 years or so! :confused:
Secondly regarding the perception the Air Force is stringing people along.... Rumours on the shop floor suggest decisions have been made regarding Puma 2 and Merlin. Yet the powers that be refuse to disclose the state of play. The cynic in me suggests that telling crews their job is ending imminently would end in a distinct shift in their work effort. Tell them there might still be hope and they will keep working hard????? :ok:
Graf, ref the AEOps, as they were in old money, there were probably more than you think deployed on ops. If you take into account all the ops jobs, the R1, E3D, Sentinel and the King Air thing, it all adds up. Yes the majority were on the good old MR2, and they took the hit for that, however much I think it was a stupid decision.
I think it would be crazy to dissolve our SH, or is it now BH, fleets. I can assure you that the AEOps, remembering that you have some on the BH and SAR cabs, have the utmost respect and admiration for what crewmen do, but AEOps do have a future, albeit in limited numbers compared to previously.
Biggus
7th Dec 2011, 09:15
yes - but some of us are more doomed than others!!!
Seldomfitforpurpose
7th Dec 2011, 17:44
GD107,
Not a fan of Graf's logic either but in his defence his theory appears to be limited To the future use of NCA :ok:
We still have a medical branch - employ doctors
We still have an ATC service - employ air traffickers
We still feed our people - employ chefs
We have a very small AE requirement - don't employ AEOps
Common sense applied. Wind your neck in... SON! :ok:
I'm a big fan of old crusty time promoted heroes giving those in a slightly different generation the benefit of their wisdom, however:
I'm afraid as a degree educated member of NCA I'm past comics and well read in textbooks and other such educational material (for the mentally challenged they are the grown up books)
I struggle with using the big boy toilet sometimes but my aim is improving, I shall endeavour to keep my potty handy in case I require some remedial training.
If anything it is perhaps yourself who needs re-educated reference some basic life skills - such as reading, listening, manners and considering the opinions of others.
Furthermore I don't have an axe to grind with AEOp's. In fact my best man was employed in the role. He used to talk a little of his work over a beer or 2. Alas the thread has been somewhat taken off subject due to your working of tangents.
But on behalf of all I would like to say a heartfelt thank you on your willingness to abstain from any further deluded and rude posts.
That is all. ;)
Could be the last?
7th Dec 2011, 20:36
Based on the feedback from the most recent WSOp Exec Conf, I think none of the NCA cadre is safe. But the sting will probably come in Tranche 3 or even 4 when the various platforms have gone or exchanged with the dark blue. I had figures quoted to me of between 120-130% manning at the current rate by 2015, so something will have to give!
Kreuger flap
7th Dec 2011, 20:48
as a degree educated member of NCA
I can only surmise that you gained a 2.2 from Plymouth Poly as I think you will find that it is re-educated and not reeducated.
who needs reeducated reference some basic life skills
St Johns Wort
8th Dec 2011, 07:12
I remember Plymouth Polly, best bit of the CSRO course!:ok:
Biggus
8th Dec 2011, 08:11
Given that the aim of the Labour party when in government was that 50% of all youths would go on to earn degrees, and that currently only 50% of children leave school with 5 GCSEs at grade C or above, one could argue that all having achieved a degree these days proves is that you have got 5 or more good GCSEs....!!
Can I take it from comments on this and other threads, that the concept that WSOps were all of one trade, merely undertaking specific role training to be a crewman, FW loadmaster, etc, has been in practice kicked into touch - even if it has not been formally recognised/announced as such.
For example, generally speaking it wasn't WSOps across the board that were made redundant, it was AEOps without an aircraft to fly....
Red Line Entry
8th Dec 2011, 08:16
St John,
Can I have your UIN so I can claim for a replacement keyboard?:ok:
Jayand
8th Dec 2011, 09:07
I do love it when somebody calls a fellow poster, "lad" or "son" how utterly condescending and arrogant! this is a forum for people to express their opinions, you might not agree with them you may diametrically oppose them in fact, but they are valid and considered views of somebody who wishes to air them.
"Promotion is still available to those who work hard and earn it" read suck cock and get several anal secondary duties!
The future is far from rosey for all the NCA cardre/RAF.
Thanks son, I appreciate your support. lol
Irrespective of peoples take on the best plan for the future on redundancy I have a few general talking points for you consideration:
Does maintaining CHF justify the considerable cost of the Merlin transition?
Is the in to service date for Puma 2 not too late? - Considering the small platform would have been ideal for the Olympics and Herrick will be almost complete before they can deploy?
With RJ still looking to be a considerable way off how long do you retain crews to man it?
Secondly is there anyone out there who can see any suitable alternative options for employment of NCA inside or outside of the military? Looking for some inspiration as I feel like I'm going round in circles! :ugh: Any genuine inputs much appreciated!
circle kay
8th Dec 2011, 15:56
Secondly is there anyone out there who can see any suitable alternative options for employment of NCA inside or outside of the military? Looking for some inspiration as I feel like I'm going round in circles!
Sugest you don't put in for E3D.. :ok:
Just a small point, there was 1 redundancy in Tranche 1, me! On a lighter note, if you are prepared to look away from aviation there are jobs out there, but I concur that the situation can look grim....
Clear above and behind:)
That was the original Tranche 1 in 2005 in case there is any confusion.....
Vim_Fuego
8th Dec 2011, 20:10
Sugest you don't put in for E3D..
Come on now...do share!
Biggus
8th Dec 2011, 20:12
Vim...... duh!
Probably something to do with the "I feel like I'm going round in circles" comment...
WAKE UP AT THE BACK......!!
Vim_Fuego
9th Dec 2011, 21:07
I really must read all of the post before commenting! In my defence I am generally regarded as 'slow but likeable'.
Going back to the now not-viewable photo on this thread I doubt he would be overly fussed...a big lad he may be but safe hands does he have.
Sandy Parts
7th Feb 2013, 16:16
There are some very bright and keen WSOps (no AEOps anymore...) who have moved to new fleets due to their ac being chopped from under them. As they are wearing a 'generic' brevet, if they are able to occupy other roles and maybe even excel at them, then why not? Limited places surely means the best will remain and the overall quality/performance will improve? Given we were all in competition for places at some stage (Selection, AACMT, IOT etc), having more people available than spaces can't be a new experience!
camelspyyder
7th Feb 2013, 16:21
It isn't a single genre and never will be...e.g.
Nimrod gets chopped = mass redundancies (followed by PVR's also)
Merlin gets chopped = mass crossovers to fixed wing:hmm:
CS
and as for quality going up, that isn't happening whilst current posting policy keeps above average operators on the ground (even after promotion) and staffs the dwindling fleets of aircraft with them that aren't and in some cases never will be.
Rant off, time for my medicine...
Ivan Rogov
7th Feb 2013, 16:50
Camelspyyder is spot on unfortunately :ugh:
Sandy Parts
There are some very bright and keen WSOps (no AEOps anymore...) who have moved to new fleets due to their ac being chopped from under them. As they are wearing a 'generic' brevet, if they are able to occupy other roles and maybe even excel at them, then why not? Limited places surely means the best will remain and the overall quality/performance will improve? Given we were all in competition for places at some stage (Selection, AACMT, IOT etc), having more people available than spaces can't be a new experience!
Few WSOps Sensor guys have been able or allowed to move fleets, that is still a recruiting tool IMHO. As CS points out rather than balance out the new structure there are very few above average experienced WSOp Sensors getting flying jobs as the plan is to get all the new ones flying. This will bite us in a couple of years when there is a hole where the experienced instructor/standards guys should be, but can't because they are not on a fleet now :(
Most that were fired have found good jobs in the real world which isn't helping the PVR rates, especially of those that aren't in flying jobs :{