Sydney Airport Changes

[VBPCGUY]

http://www.aspecthuntley.com.au/asxdata/20111205/pdf/01249577.pdf

Pretty much Virgin Australia and its alliance partners EY, SQ, DL and NZ will use the existing international terminal.

Qantas and its alliance partners will use the all existing domestic terminal CX BA

Not sure what happens with non alliance airlines if they just lease gates for international services off either VA or QF.

[Howard Hughes]

Construction of new Qantas engineering complex...
That's a surprise!:eek:

[Keg]

Not if you look at the picture on page 13 Howard. The current Qantas jet base is essentially non existent. Whilst they're trying to outsource everything, I guess they still need some engineering capability.

I'm surprised this has taken so long. It was not long after I checked out as an F/O in '97 that I first heard of the plan to turn the jet base into the Qantas and partners international terminal connecting seamlessly to the domestic terminal. It appears that they're finally going to go ahead with it.... maybe.

[Howard Hughes]

On the surface it seems like finally a little bit of good news for you guys!:ok:

[piston broke again]

What a headache the whole changeover phase would be though. Customs in both terminals. Makes sense when you're building a new satellite terminal but for the existing infrastructure there would be major major changes. Still, it has plenty of merits!

[ampclamp]

It'll take some time to do but support the principle. It will mean the int. guys coming over to the domestic terminals with their flights.Either that or Joyce has decided to close (wreck) international altogether:E.

As an airport it will improve how well it works. All we need to do is improve the vehicle traffic flow around the terminals. Domestic is already at breaking point with its ridiculous lane arrangement which gives an effective single lane thru way after taxis and those parasitic f'ing hire cars clog up one and the other is direct entry to the pay car park.Leaving one for the circuit. Best thing they could do there is have taxi and hire cars off site and have underground travelator to a dedicated area for taxis. Parking is going to be a problem for all. The approach roads are nothing more than suburban streets which must be improved. The ITB parking seems to be working better with better car access. The extortionate parking arrangement is a disgrace though.

[Short_Circuit]

I notice Qantas & Malaysian already buddy up at the new Eastern Precinct SIO/SDO.

And, water views for Base! :ok:

[73to91]

if you look at the picture on page 13 Howard. The current Qantas jet base is essentially non existent
so AJ will support the proposal 100% and then he can say that this is what MAP intend to do and 'we' have no choice but to move all maintenance out of Sydney.

Where is the proposed Virgin hanger going ? because looking over towards the bay (page 13), there's a new hanger, is that for QF or the proposed Virgin one?

[Ngineer]

This will probably open up a can of worms as far as aircraft handling goes. IE: Qantas ramp and cleaning commuting between 2 terminals for Qf and customer aircraft, and the same for QF Engineering if they ever intend to take back contracts (this will be the final deathbed of that dream). And similarly for contractors who service our brands and other customers.

Reminds me of a whacky plan to shutdown all aerobridges at around midnight. That died a quick death after they realised that people actually work on the aircraft after passengers get off.

Hopefully they will provide a free and convenient means of commuting between the terminals for the travelling public (like some other countries do).

[GAFA]

Virgin's hanger is being built in the GA area in front of AJC (or whatever they are called now).

Isn't Qantas already in the process of moving out of the jet base with the sims and cab trainers about to be move across the road?

[ampclamp]

Free? lol that word is not in that Macquarie dictionary.

[ampclamp]

They've just a spent a few million painting and renovating some of the hangars so they must be due to be flattened.:rolleyes:

[DJ737]

Nice video here : THE RIGHT FUTURE. STARTING NOW - YouTube

Plenty of QF 787's and JQ 737's :rolleyes:

[keepemseperated]

If you look at the video not much in it for Virgin domestic ops - the current INTL5&6 aprons are one in one out, so no advantage over the current DOM2&3 aprons - not to mention having to cross 16R/34L for 50 to 75% of movements, depending on the mode in operation.

[ampclamp]

Artist's impression only, so some licence required in the presentation. Believe it all when you see it. Some will happen some wont.

[Sand Man]

"Tell 'em they're dreamin' "

[breakfastburrito]

Airport deal could help Qantas net $350m
Matt O'sullivan
December 6, 2011


QANTAS stands to pocket more than $350 million if it reaches a deal with Sydney Airport to hand back long-term leases on its domestic terminal, and its jet and freight bases, years before they expire.


Sydney Airport yesterday unveiled plans to put Qantas, Jetstar and the group's international alliance partners such as British Airways under the one roof at what are now the domestic terminals T2 and T3. Under the proposal, Virgin Australia would shift all of its operations to the international terminal.


As part of a non-binding agreement, Qantas will also enter talks with Sydney Airport about the early termination of leases on T3, the freight terminal and the jet base.


The airline has been the subject of speculation over the years that it will end the lease on T3 before it expires in 2019. The leases on the two other assets expire in 2020.


The Macquarie Equities analyst Ian Myles estimated that the early termination of the leases could deliver a return to Qantas of more than $350 million. But he cautioned that the early end to the leases would result in the airline paying more in annual fees for the use of the airport's terminals and facilities.


Qantas declined to comment on the looming talks over the leases.


The airport's long-term plans were short on detail yesterday but airlines have warmed to the prospect of operational savings and an increase in passenger capacity.


The proposal also includes the construction of a new engineering complex for line maintenance for Qantas, while a new hangar would serve as a maintenance base for Virgin Australia.


The proposals stand to make Sydney Airport more competitive against its rivals, such as Melbourne's Tullamarine.


The airport has entered into non-binding agreements with Qantas and Virgin to extend the charges they pay for international flights from next year until mid-2015. It has also agreed with them to work towards multi-decade commercial agreements, including the establishment of ''long-term price parameters''.


Shares in MAp, the majority owner of Sydney Airport, rose 5¢ to a four-year high of $3.575 yesterday as the extension of international pricing agreements removed some uncertainty. Qantas rose 4¢ to $1.645, while Virgin was unchanged at 35.5¢.


Analysts said the proposals would increase passenger volumes and result in a better use of the assets, including an increase in occupancy at its car parks. They would help minimise operational disruptions, increase aircraft turnaround times and almost eliminate the need to tow planes across runways.


The senior research analyst at Legg Mason, Andrew Chambers, said the overhaul would delay the onset of capacity constraints at the airport and increase the amount of time passengers could spend in shopping precincts, rather than on making their way from one terminal to another.


Other analysts have put the cost of the overhaul at more than $1 billion over five years, but the chief executive of Sydney Airport, Kerrie Mather, said it was too early to put a figure on it because it was still ''just a concept''.
SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/business/airport-deal-could-help-qantas-net-350m-20111205-1ofk5.html)

[GAFA]

Looks like the original plans to locate Virgin's hanger in the GA have been shelved.

From the video there appears to be a lack of turboprop parking over at the Virgin side with what looks like REX parked down the Eastern side of the QF regionals in their own terminal.

[Keg]

Given that 'long haul' paid for all those things over the years- the jet base, the training centre, MBA, engineering centre, etc- I presume that when the $350M is realised it is put against the long haul side of the column? :rolleyes:

Of course, whilst the gain of that $350M will never be realised against long haul, the cost of building the new facilities will of course be sheeted against the 'under performing' mainline brand. :ugh:

[Short_Circuit]

GAFA, In one of the artists impressions, there is a Virgin hangar in front of the new Qantas facility.

[DirectAnywhere]

Keg, I wouldn't worry about it. By 2019 longhaul and mainline will be nothing but a bad memory for management anyway.

[neville_nobody]

Kerrie Mather must be smoking the same drugs as West Australia Airport corporation, she like Perth expects a doubling of passenger traffic from current figures in about 15 years with no plans of building runways/changing ATC or the curfew. Given that SYD is under the pump now how do they expect to DOUBLE the number of passengers? Very few airlines have A380's and you can't run them domestically. To even come out and say something like that without any planned infrastructure or rule changes is ridiculous.

I am beginning to wonder if the companies who are running these airports actually have ANY idea about what they are doing. There seems to be this standard line from all airport owners around the country of increasing airport passenger numbers going forward with ZERO runway infrastructure spending.

Someone needs to tell them that the emperor has no clothes as what these people are proposing is impossible. SYD/BNE/PER airports are at capacity now and these people are coming out unchallenged that their airports are going to double the passenger traffic and noone asks how they are going to do it. Sydney can build the world's biggest terminal but without either changing the curfew/the cap/ ATC rules there won't be much passenger growth. Just bigger holding patterns and longer delays.

[Blockla]

SYD/BNE/PER airports are at capacity now Not quite true. They are at capacity for a few hours a day, then there are many hours where they are not. Special events such a nasty wx increase the impact of lack of infrastructure and artificial items such as movement caps, but they are in the big picture rare enough.

But in the modern world with carbon taxes, you have to wonder about which is more important noise sharing or being green?

"It's all about the runways stupid" is as true as it ever was.

I think this is just an attempt to undermine the decision on a new airport in SY. It's politically unacceptable for all the NIMBY reasons, it's possibly unaffordable and whilst there is still 'spare' capacity there will be no real will for anything else. Gatwick has a single runway and moves just about as many people as Sydney. Reasons for this is the 'peaks' last much longer than Sydney and generally on average each movement is a larger type.

Perth and Brisbane will never reach the efficiency/through put of Gatwick due to the nature of the beasts. But essentially runways and improved ground infrastructure would make massive differences, but who's going to pay for it and is there economic value in making the investment.

The way to get these 'monopolies' to do something is to build a competitor, but who's going to pay for that and where do you build them?

The 4 major London airports compete for routes offering great "deals" to airlines but this is not true in any Australian context (excluding the Avalon adventure). It would be much smarter to require the current owners to do X Y and Z via regulation and direct input into the master plans by a government agency. If the owners don't want to do it, then they need to get out of the business.

Unfortunately major infrastructure such as roads, rail, ports and airports should be built and owned by the government for the good of all not the profitability of a few. The few pieces of eight that were received for these national assets were no where near a fair deal for the punters. Look at some of the regional reallocations from the FAC to regional councils/operators there was absolutely nothing in it for the public. But I suspect all this waffle is simply preaching to the choir.:hmm:

[blow.n.gasket]

What's the bet this is nothing more than another money making scheme cooked up by the smartest guys in the room.
$350 million for Qantas to break leases in the short term, creates/releases capital. MAp makes it back in higher leases in the long term.
Get's rid of the last vestige of Qantas' maintence abilities. We "'intend'" to build new hangers , yeh right, that's why senior management have been doing the rounds overseas signing contracts.
Another excuse to off-shore everything they can in case Xenophon's Bill gets up. Too late it's all gone and will be too expensive to bring back.

THE SPIRIT OF AUSTRALIA my arse!:*

[Worrals in the wilds]

But essentially runways and improved ground infrastructure would make massive differences, but who's going to pay for it and is there economic value in making the investment.Brisbane is building a new runway. It won't be ready for a while but the prep work has started. One of the big sandpits currently off bravo taxiway is part of that prepwork. They're also expanding the domestic apron and finally adding the missing piece of bravo (not before time, either). The ITB apron has been expanded twice in the last five years and the DTB apron had several bays and a new piece of terminal added last year.

Economic value aside, there's obviously not a shred of PR value in building new infrastructure; no matter what gets built, everyone just keeps on with the same 'private airports only build shopping centres and carparks' rhetoric.

[NIK320]

1 year later and those 5 extra gates at the DTB are already to few when it comes to terminators at the end of the night. 1 extra aircraft and you struggle for a bay.

What they need to build is more parking / hangar space, not that anyone will want to pay for that.

[Going Boeing]

http://bne.com.au/files/images/Major%20projects/New%20Parallel%20Runway%20Project/NPR_artists_impresssion.jpg

Further info here (http://bne.com.au/major-projects/new-parallel-runway-project)

[Going Boeing]

SODROPS will be the preferred config but the plan does allow for parallel runway ops during peak periods as shown in the document here (http://bne.com.au/files/pdf/New%20Parallel%20Runway/VOL%20D/D3.pdf).

[missy]

Reduction in runway crossings

Can't see how there will be a reduction in a reduction in runway crossings.
Virgin domestics via ENTRA to depart RWY16L/34R will need to cross RWY 16R/34L. Virgin domestics via WOLLONGONG to depart RWY 34R will need to cross RWY 34L. Otherwise they will need to depart RWY 16R/34L, which in the case of RWY 34L will see an increase in traffic using that runway for departure, which will mean more departure delays and more aircraft noise.

All Qantas aircraft using RWY 34L will need to cross RWY 34L (unless TWY Bravo is extended to the RWY 34L threshold).

And another "new" Tower, the current one is only 15 years old. Seems those Canberra bureaucrats were right all those years ago...

[ampclamp]

While they're inclined to spend a few dollars, how about upgrading the ILS at Sydney.

[VBPCGUY]

Melbourne Airport poised to spread its wings (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/melbourne-airport-poised-to-spread-its-wings-20111207-1oj6z.html)

[oz in dxb]

In regards to upgrading the ILS at SYD, I read somewhere that 34L will have a CAT II ILS. Somewhat strange as it would require approach lighting to CAT II standards.

Oz

[piston broke again]

Maybe CAT III which doesn't require the app lighting (HIALS).

[ampclamp]

I think its time syd joined the 20th century and had all weather landing capability. If SYD is to be "the" gateway let it be just that. Seeing the 'fogs' that close the airport at times is ridiculous. With limited movements you would want to make the most your investment. I'm not aware of any limitations in making SYD cat IIIa b or c but hope they consider doing it of possible.

[bangbounceboeing]

what is the "official" reason why sydney dosn't have a cat II or III approved runway, even the kiwis have one at NZAA?

[Worrals in the wilds]

http://rodsell.com/plastics/au100d96f.jpg
;)

[ampclamp]

wow, pass round the hat I reckon we could raise a hundred quick smart! :ok: