Latest on Hainan Airlines [Archive]

USMCProbe

9th Dec 2011, 13:28

Worldrover;
I will try to be as nice as I can with this, but that may not be that nice. All you want to know is about "accomodation, schedules, etc". Ahahaa. Me too! Who doesn't.

This applies to "real" airlines in the first world as well, except China and most of Asia are capitalism on "fast forward", including aviation.

i work for the Hainan Group. Accommodation? You will stay in the worst dumps you have ever had a nightmare about. Schedules? You will fly whatever the local pilots don't want to (this is the same at all contract jobs). Promises? Maybe they didn't mean to break them, but things have changed since you applied, so deal with it. Or maybe they just f#$$%%^king lied in the first place.

Sorry, but if you come here with an open mind and a good attitude, and you are VERY F@#$%$king lucky, it might work out for you. Come here, but first are worried about "scheduling, accommodation, rostering, etc", you are going down a path that will lead to professional destruction. Questioning the opinions of those that are here, as long as the answers you receive on "scheduling, accommodation, rostering" might not be what you expected. Ahahaha.

Sorry, like I said you might not like the answer. I have had it great here for the last 5 months. It is a dream job. The first year, I packed my bags to leave the next day, 3 times, and quit once. My dream job might change again to a nightmare tomorrow and there is nothing I can do about it but quit.

I am OK with this. Are you? If not, China is not for you.

There is not a single ex 320 skipper flying a 330 for HNair. You would be an experiment. Chinese experiments are painful, and destructive.

Good luck to you.

worldrover

9th Dec 2011, 19:05

USMCProbe, I don't want to be told something "nice", I need factual replies so thank you for doing so.

And no, I do not plan on coming there having in mind EU/US standards like the ones you mentioned (I know, I asked info on them, but I had to start a conversation here...)

I am, sure you're right about the experiment just starting. I assume though you are flying the 73 or other short haul ac, because regarding the scheduling and (from the bits and pieces of info gathered) based on the limited destinations served by the A330/340 HNA fleet, I can't imagine what are the ones the locals don't want to have (I'll take them).

I am interested in knowing how many roundtrips per 6 week cycle do they schedule their crews (these routes are almost 23hrs RTrip so for 1000/yr, I assumed 6-7). Any info from someone in the specific fleet would help.

As for the hotel info, I am sure its the same for everyone in the company, so tell me, do you HAVE TO stay and prepay(as rumored) their "designated" hotel-apartments or whatever they call them?
How many days for (long range fleet) crews spent in Beijing? Are the flights to US and EU daily (so crews stay there only 1 night, or more if not daily), things like that.

I appreciate all the honest and hard answers, the truth leads to better preparation and low expectations so less disappointment. I am optimistic though, and I think that sooner or later they will have to improve if they want anyone of us to fly their planes. We just have to know how to negotiate and ask, and this forum is the best way to prepare for it.

Thanks again USMCP

cactusbusdrvr

10th Dec 2011, 06:05

USMCProbe - I am curious as to what changed your job from the worst to the best in the last few months. Is it a wakeup call by management that they will not have qualified pilots if they keep dicking pilots around? If so that would portend a better future for contract work in China.

One fishy thing about this CCQ deal is if there are a bunch of expats already flying the 320 in China why aren't they first in line to do the conversion. Is this another Korean where they constantly have to recruit because they eat their young (metaphorically) during training?

worldrover

10th Dec 2011, 06:30

Cactus, I think it is because the A320 captains in Japan do not have the min 5-7000JetT (depending on the agency)
I mean, most of the people I know, go there for the widebodies. There are A320 jobs (there were anyway) in Europe and US, so people go for the LR fleets so they can spend min time IN China.
Hope some more people come out and give some info on HNA so we don't have to speculate. Lets see

USMCProbe

10th Dec 2011, 08:22

I will answer as best I can. First to Worldrover, and this is as best I can, and I am looking into the 330 deal as well. And I live in Seattle, am currently a "chinese" pilot for the same parent airline. There is very little chance I will do it.

They really don't have anything sorted out. They make "current and qualified' expats do 6 months plus of line training, god knows what they would require of 330 CCQ guys. Scheduling? Nobody knows, it has never been done. I do know it will be done to the benefit of Chinese crews, not us. Based in Seattle? That means somebody has to deadhead, and since the Chinese do that for free, and don't even count it as "duty" time (actually they count it as "rest"), that means it won't be them, it will probably be you. How many roundtrips? Again, nobody knows and I have asked. If the Chinese discover they can run an import/export business out of their suitcases you may never fly back and forth to Seattle other than to return home on your vacation rotation.

Too many unknowns for me, and the things I do know about HNair make me want to avoid it. I would actually recommend Spring, BCA, or Tianjin before HNair. Money is the same or better, and Tianjin you can get 6/3, although of couple of us here are going to try to negotiate the same if we sign a new contract. All three of these airlines have been treating expats well for the last couple of years, including me.

As far as PEK accomodation, from what I saw on the contract briefs it is your own responsibilty. Expat apartments in PEK are expensive (1000-1300) for a 70 sq meter 1 bedroom. You can get cheaper stuff by the airport but there is not much there. The "Hainan Hilton" may or may not be free for you, I am not sure. It is a dump, but at least it has tile floors and is "clean", or at least by Chinese airline hotel standards it is clean. It also has year round heat and air conditioning. The fact that I mentioned this last tidbit should concern you about Chinese airline hotels. LOL

The dream job I have now? 12 minutes by motorbike to dispatch, along the beach road. Mostly 1 day trips, usually 2 legs a day, once a week maybe 4. I work 14 days a month, returning home every night to the beforementioned beach at 19 degrees north latitude. I hope it lasts.

From what I have seen, only 1 in 10 pass the interview, and maybe 1 in 2 that come here for a job, actually get the job. Rarely is talent the discriminating factor. The other 1 out of 2 go home, jobless.

I only recommend Chinese jobs to those that have another job that they can return to if it doesn't work out.

I just passed my last PC of this contract, and have 1 more medical left. My long term dream is just to finish this contract and get my bonus money. That is 6 months from now, and that is about as far as my "event horizon" is in China.

For now though, it is great.

Good luck to those that try. I doubt I would do it over again.

worldrover

10th Dec 2011, 13:10

USMCP thanks for your info.

Their posting states that wherever your base (commuting pilots) the company will plan for the 6 week cycle to begin and end there. I guess this will mean at least 2 pilots based at this city in order to work(?). I don't think it requires deadheading. By the way, did you mean the Chinese (pilots)"do it for free" or they (company)schedule deadheading crews for free?

I have to say that by your comments (comparing to older ones from pilots in the forum) things have improved a lot. There were complaints about compulsory pre-paying of the dump they wanted you to stay in Beijing, and money penalties for refusing or paying late, also about not paying the bonus (intentionally and ridiculously reasoned) and generally nasty comments.

It seems that although you are pointing out the bad sides, you mention nothing of the old problems, which is good. Do you get to fly business home or coach? Free all over their network or not? How do the local pilots see you? (I heard its not like KAL where they hate your guts)

Thanks again

USMCProbe

11th Dec 2011, 01:18

I have stayed in the Hainan Hilton at PEK many times, but I don't know much about the deal HNair expats have if they want to stay there. Prepaying or not I don't know. I did meet one expat that was actually living there. Our "deal" is that we can stay at company hotels for free if we fly that day. I have never asked any of the HN pilots about this. Sorry. I believe it costs about 170 rmb (27USD) on a daily basis.

I know that Chinese pilots at my airline don't get paid for DH, and they can do it on their day off, and the company counts it as a day off.

The rest of your questions cannot be answered honestly, by me or the agency trying to recruit you. Nobody has done it, and the details have not been worked out. And after the details have been worked out, it will change. Numerous times.

The contract agency will tell you what you want to hear, at the end of the day they are sales people.

If you are based in Seattle, some Captain will have to deadhead, either to or from Seattle. It will only be Chinese DH-ing if it benefits them. Right now the flight requency to Seattle is seasonal. Winter time 2-3 times a week, summer maybe 4 days. I asked the FA's and sometimes they spend 4 days in SEA. Usually 2.

USMCProbe

11th Dec 2011, 01:31

The reason I ultimately won't apply for this is that I believe that no matter what they tell me, I will end up deadheading back and forth to Seattle, to fly the domestic Chinese flights that the Chinese don't want to fly. I will only spend 12 days at home on my vacation.

If I thought I would only fly back and forth to PEK once a week from SEA, I would apply.

This "Scheme" has been tried before, recently. Air China did it with foreign pilots, to help them recruit them. They started out being based overseas. In less than a year several of the overseas bases were closed, and the pilots ended up flying rubber dog$%#t in and out of PEK, domestically.

I am betting the HN deal will be the same, for the same reasons.

A-3TWENTY

11th Dec 2011, 02:40

[QUOTE]Uhmm...how many have completed and passed the 320 to 330 advertised program? Try and ask the recruiting agencies. My investigations tell me the number is zero. Although a few have gone from the left seat of the 320 to the right of 330. Nice[QUOTE]

If you don`t believe , ask the agencies.Not a single A320 pilot joined the A330 fleet.All have failed the interview , which lasts 3 minutes but is enough to send you back home.

If you intend to join the 330 fleet , start asking the agencies how many A 320 expats joined the A330 fleet.

To someone who told about SEA.
You will fly to SEA 2 times out of a year(maximum!!!). It`s the most prefered destination of chinese pilots because they get more money when they fly USA and because they love to go there for shopping.

So in practical words...forget flying to SEA.

And yes , the A330 fleet has a lot of domestic flights. And people is afraid that more will be added in the near future as the 787(first coming in April) starts flying the A330 LR routes.

A320

worldrover

11th Dec 2011, 06:24

Thanks for your posts guys!

Regarding the interview fail rate, I do not even know how many have already applied (its a new post guys), but supposedly the interview is early in the process (before you fly back and get your self funded CCQ) so if they need pilots they will eventually interview someone and accept him.

I believe that you are referring to their add about "experienced A330/340 F/Os" to upgrade to CMD (directly, no RHS period)(!!!) , yes they posted one of these too!!
Maybe they failed their "CMD" interview, but it makes more sense.
In any case all these bits and pieces of info make me think that they really need the A330/340 Cpts and they will have to change a few things to get us.

I am sure SEA is the "prize" destination for the locals, but to be honest I could't care less. I am looking at their EU bases, and I do not think they will be able to serve all their Intl destinations with the 787.
Plus I am sure they are planning to expand their network.

Thanks again. Who knows, we might end up flying together there soon.

cactusbusdrvr

11th Dec 2011, 21:41

Thanks for the info. Definitely not quitting the day job unless I had everything locked down.

urge

13th Dec 2011, 10:28

First of all, let's quit guessing at what's going on at Hainan Airiines. USMCProbe is just spouting out stuff he doesn't know because he doesn't even work there (don't lump ALL chinese companies together). Maybe there was stuff going on there a couple years back, but lets see if it still exists, okay?

As for SEA, they only have one expat that is on the line based out of there, but they need two and prefer 3/4. I will be number two. I'm going thru training right now and will tell you how it goes. If you are based out of SEA, you will not DH, like USMCProbe keeps incorrectly saying. You fly out from SEA to PEK, Then fly your turns in out of PEK for your period of time, then you fly your last leg from PEK - SEA. Depending upon your contract, then you'll be at home for 10 days if you are doing the monthly thing or you'll be there for two weeks, if doing the 6/2 week rotation. Why anyone would do the second one, puzzles me, unless your recruiter didn't have that option. I did a commuting contract before to the US from Asia, and I NEVER Deadheaded either way. I flew it each way and i was home every month. I think USMCProble is confusing a contract that Air china has for Vancouver based guys where all they do is fly Vancouver -PEK once a week (pilot fly 3/4 round trips and that's it and i know someone that has been doing it for 3 years). Hainan does not do it that way.

Here's the scoop with wanting expats for the SEA - PEK route. The chinese locals have to have two days off after doing an international long haul. The expats don't. So once you land in PEK, the next day you can go out on a flight. The locals are given two days off from that flight. Hence the reason they want expats, so they can be utilized more.

As for pay the A330/340 guys will get 15.5K/mo. it's the 12.5K base plus 3K bonus. You can lose the bonus if you get a flight violation or incident. No one has lost their bonus yet, so don't fret that.

There have been several guys hired with A320 only backgrounds going into A330 program (referring to CAP only). They need pilots and those A320 guys will be A330 CAPs.

The chinese airlines are very laid back when compared to Korean Air, which is such a tense management group and anal retentive group of Korean pilots. Not the expats. Some of the Hainan pilots came over from the middle east, and are very happy they did. Once again, this is a Hainan thread.

The A330 will increase international destinations down the road. Looking at LA and some other places. My last company expanded their routes and i got to fly to a lot more US cities and had many layovers there even though the locals wanted the flights for more per diem. I was home at least 18 -20 days a month. Not normal, but i was lucky.

The chinese schedulers from what i'm hearing from guys that have been here for 3 years, are very accommodating. They will give you the days off you need and the trips you request. Now it wasn't that way a couple of years ago, and the beginning expats for Hainan Airlines had to 'teach' them the foreign way of honoring days off. They are inline with the process pretty regularly now. Things are going smoothly. As for domestic flying, it does exist but it's minimal.

As always have an ace in the hole. You can leave your contract anytime after 6 months after completion of training with no penalty, so if you don' t like it, have another job to interview and lined up for. Their pay with commuting contract is tops. management doesn't bother you. Just do your job with a smile and that's it.

Hope that helps.

airdualbleedfault

13th Dec 2011, 11:14

Oh man Urge, that post was hilarious :ok:
Sounds exactly like a newbie ( to china ) expat with stars in his eyes rant. Its amazing how much more you know over USMC, considering you just started Trg.
Please have the humility to come back to Pprune in 12 months and lets us know what REALLY happens .
Good luck
PS yes, I have had the displeasure of working for those lying A holes

urge

13th Dec 2011, 11:15

A-3Twenty. Not true. In SEP, two guys with A320 only time passed their interviewed and offered a job. They are getting their CCQs done now. I also was offered a job with minimal A330 PIC time (less than the required 500, which is not really a requirement if you have previous A320 time). They need A330 guys period and all A320 guys will do fine in the interview. Standard sim check.

urge

13th Dec 2011, 11:19

AirDualBleedFault. I hear you. First of all, i might be new to this asian airline but I have flown much longer than that in Asia, so no 'newbie' here. I will keep everyone posted. I have friends that have been flying for Hainan for the past 3 years that i all renewed their contracts and love their job. I will say, this sounds like the exception with all the other chinese airlines. But AirDualBleed, at least i have facts and know people in the company NOW that are happy, do you? I'm flying for them now, are you? PPrune is notorious for just negative crap all the time. I don't mind reading it, so you can take down the notes to keep an eye out for. If it starts to smell bad, then you know ahead of time what to smell for, and you can get out. I did my sniff test and Hainan Airlines was the ONLY chinese airline i was willing to go to, period.

What i'm trying to debunk, is that not everyone gets screwed over. It has definitely happened in the past and will do so in the future, but i look at the previous years and the 'now' and see what has changed. it's a pilot market in China, so change has been occurring. When things slow down in 10 years, you better be gone and made all your money.

worldrover

13th Dec 2011, 13:26

Very informative post urge!
Thanks for the first reply for someone that is actually there.

Can you tell me how long it took from application to interview to training? You already had A330 experience so you did not do the CCQ, but do you know how it was for the other guys to pass the A330 CAAC test after returning?
How long is LT?

Any idea how many they will need? They keep posting different requirements under different agents, from experienced F/O's to upgrade immediately, to 7000 TT with 1000+ CPT A320, so this latest one (a week ago) for the CCQ, will it keep going until Feb-Mar? Can't come earlier

Thanks again

urge

13th Dec 2011, 14:15

Worldrover. Getting an interview can be super quick. It's just making the cutoff point for the next month's interview which i think is around the 15 - 20th of a month to get seen the next month. Maybe some recruiters can squeeze people in later than that. Anyhow, that's what happened to me. I requested info from a recruiter, they sent me an application to fill out (took about 20 minutes max) and they replied in less than a week to schedule an interview.
Plan on 7-9 days for the interview (Medical, sim, ATPL test). You find out usually right after sim is done if you pass or maybe the next day for some. ATP you find out when you hit 'complete" on the computer. Medical takes 2-3 weeks. BUT 30-50% of the guys will have something wrong. It's the chinese way. Sometimes you can retake something at your home, but then if it has to be translated to chinese, then forget it. So some guys come back multiple times to retake a section of the medical. They give you lots of opportunities to pass unless it's something severe. Once you pass the medical and offered a job, you can start whenever you want. I mean WHENEVER you want. There is no such thing as a class date. You show up, and the class is built around you. They say plan on 6 weeks of ground school, but there is only two weeks of it, if that much. The rest of the time you are waiting to get your pilot conversions done by China and the visa. If it gets done earlier, then you go home then and sit at home, getting paid, until you do your sims which can take 1 - 3 months to sked. If you are looking for a set syllabus, or structured training, you are not going to get that. this company just plans as it goes along. I don't have a problem with that, as long as i'm getting paid. Line training, is up in the air for how long that lasts. Plan on two months, give or take a month. But who knows when that'll start too. Could take months after you finish your sims. As for the CCQ program, it changes weekly on how they do the CAAC check. Looks like they are trying to combine it with the other 3 sims we do. 2 SOP sims with a sOp check then CAAC check. That's all i know for now.

USMCProbe

13th Dec 2011, 17:26

Urge;
Actually, I am here, and you are not. I work for the Hainan Group. That includes Hainan Airlines, BCA, Tianjin, West Air, Lucky Air, Grand China Express, Hong Kong Express, and a couple of others. Other than Hainan, we all exist as "operational subsets" of Hainan Airlines. Pilots, FA's, aircraft, and not much else. If I fly in PEK, CAN, or Haikhou, we use all Hainan assets. If you come to Sanya, you will use ours. We can jumpseat on any Hainan carrier, unlimited. I have, and have talked to several expat pilots, on every fleet. I do this 2-4 times a month. A couple I know fairly well. I don't take offense to what you said, as you don't know. But, you don't know.

Wasinc just pulled their ad for 330 CCQ. Probably for reasons I stated before: It wasn't approved by anybody. Chinese airlines, like other countries, cannot just do what they want, it has to be approved by the aviation authority. Advertising a job does not require that approval.

Don't have the 500 hours? I hope it works out for you, but that 500 hour minimum was probably negotiated with the CAAC. If you don't have it, your license, or airport ID, may not be approved. Hopefully for your sake it will be. If it isn't, there is nothing you can do about it.

But, you were offered a job? That might just be a 23 year old office boy making that decision, and hoping the local CAAC buys off on it. You will find out if you are issued your license and airport ID, or not.

I am here, and I do know what I am talking about. Less than half of those at your stage of the game make it through the line check, for various reasons. And yes, all were "offered" a job. Just like you.

Other tidbits.

You will not teach any chinese scheduler anything western. You will submit, or you won't last long. This is a "punishment" culture. If you cause the scheduler any undue pain, they will return it in kind, but 10X more.

This is their country, and their airline. We are just part timers, to fill in the gaps until they can staff their own cockpits. THEY get to choose what they fly, and when. And they may change their mind, at any time. And they do.

Sorry, but you do seem a bit "starry-eyed". I wish you luck and hope it works out for you.

worldrover

13th Dec 2011, 18:18

URGE, which agency you recommend for Hainan then? No reason to try blindfolded, your experience sounds quite streamlined.

Do keep the info coming if you can, I mean USMCP does sound realistic, and he does offer some objective pieces of info, so I hope everything IS so different in the mother company's A330 fleet contracts than all the rest of the group.

As for the sim, I just hope that by being Airbus they do not try doing the usual "cowboy stuff" they do to the Boeing guys (like one member said, 80's style, multiple failures and fires and...missile hits....ridiculous and childish).

Thanks again. Good luck!

USMCProbe

13th Dec 2011, 18:35

Worldover;
If your a 330 guy I can't offer a recommendation, as I am not one from AC, HN, or China S. If you are a 320 skipper, I can.

Currently the 320 jobs pay more. BCA, Tianjin (more time off), Spring ( more money), June Yao (more money but get treated like ****). Sichuan. Real airline but a bit less money. 1st class operation.

BCA, Tianjin, and Spring, with Sichuan as an alternate, treat their expats well. At least for now.

If you want time off, Tianjin is 6/3. If you want money, Spring is 20k+. If you want good treatment, BCA is good. That is where I work.

My info.

the grove

13th Dec 2011, 18:36

<<<so I hope everything IS so different in the mother company's A330 fleet........>>>

<<<As for the sim, I just hope that........>>>

Worldrover,

You're welcome to hope for whatever you like, dreams are free.

But I'd recommend listening to USMCProbe instead. The lad speaks the truth.

Best of luck,

Grove

airdualbleedfault

14th Dec 2011, 05:54

Urge, I sincerely hope it works out for you, BUT China is not like the rest of Asia, they may look similar but that's about it.
Anyway, hope you are one of the handful of guys that seem to do OK there.

USMCProbe

14th Dec 2011, 17:26

The Grove;
I wish I had some specifics on HN 330 fleet, but I don't have anything current. If it is a "fit" for what you are looking for, hopefully it works out.

Me and a few others at BCA have looked into the CCQ and talked about it. I am up for contract renewal in 6 months. Based on what I know, and more importantly, what I don't, I will stay where I am.

If you are a 330 guy, you might want to try China Southern instead. 18k a month, and a good airline. I have flown on them a few times, and have flown with their "ex" crew here a few times. I don't know how they treat their expats. I do know that their pilot and fA's speak better english than most of the smaller airlines. That will at least make work easier. The money is good, and Guangzhou is a decent place for expats to live. Me personally, I actually like the Cantonese over all other Chinese, by far.

I wish I had more information. Part of getting by here is being comfortable with not knowing F@#$ck all. I have been here 18 months, and I fully expect to know less in a couple of years, if they haven't Sh$#@tcanned me by then.

One good thing about wide-body flying in China, is I believe all of the airlines pay full credit for the amount of hours you are in the aircraft. Unlike what ICAO allows, and many foreign airlines utilized, they don't discount the time you are "on break". At least Hainan is like this. I believe they all are, but if anyone knows different, please chime in.

KAL, and Emirates are the two biggies that I know that use this ICAO rule. You can fly 130 hours a month, but only get "credit" for 80-90. Not good, especially when you are traveling through many time zones.

Good luck to all who come here.

fatbus

15th Dec 2011, 03:37

Small correction on EK, you get paid for every hour of credit seat or bunk, only seat time counts towards to yearly max of 900 hrs.At present 777 pilots rostered to @ 95 credit (pay)/month but very few are getting close to the 900 hard / year.

worldrover

15th Dec 2011, 11:53

the grove: I am pretty sure that USMCP gives some reliable info, that doesn't mean that there is no other side to it though.

Yes, I am optimistic, and I also think that there is a huge difference between an A320/B737 expat contract and an A330 one (or other long haul). That is the way is has always been. Even in a western airline, the conditions between 2 similar fleets are considerably different.

I just don't understand why "urge" and his experience in China is of less importance to you than someone's that is not satisfied?
Where do you fly anyway? Do you have any hard facts on your experience to share with us? That is all we need, and everybody can judge for himself and take his calculated risks.

Dream Land

16th Dec 2011, 04:52

USMCProbe is a big boy that had the opportunity to fly aircraft and missions that posers like you will never have the opportunity to fly or understand, he is also on a LOA from one of the most respected airlines in the industry, so if you don't like his posts, don't read them, but please don't compare yourself to him, keep your pie hole shut.

youwantmetodowhat

16th Dec 2011, 06:59

Ditto to what Dreamland says

worldrover

17th Dec 2011, 07:35

Ok guys, I got the message but I am going for the A330, if I wanted the A320 I'd rather fly it home.

Now that you are in the forum, please give your piece of info on Hainan, and also if you think it is helpful any relative latest CAAC info.

For example, I heard it takes a while for the CAAC to do the license check (after you get through everything else and accepted by the airline).
How long is it really, and can I bring an official report from my issuing authority in order to facilitate things (translated-stamped etc etc), what is it that they are asking for? Just license validity and authenticity, or is it a background check like the FAA guys do sometimes?

This will be probably around April (I will be coming in Feb-Mar the earliest, so I guess 2 more months to reach this point), so we will have the new EASA licenses by then. It might take a while to go through the central JAA/EASA license office (right during the transition period). I guess they do not plan that long ahead.....

By the way, although some of you guys get a bit furious in your responds, you still help in your way with all the bits of info. Thanks again, you are really helping me make my decision.
I think I'll try my luck there.

You might have been away from EU for a while, but I can tell you things don't look too good here. It always looks greener on the other side but from a professional perspective (only) its not green.
As long as my family can have a good level of living, I don't mind flying somewhere different and "difficult" as long as the planes do not fall apart.
I'll handle the rest, besides that's what they'll be paying me for.

Cheers

condorbaaz

18th Dec 2011, 11:12

Lovely responses..

USMCP mentioned that Why is China Southern supposed to be better that the rest if one is TR on A330. I am and now seriously looking at them.

I suppose that in 6 On and 2 off, the 2 off would be to make n mend the spirit and body...:O

Flying Phoenix

18th Dec 2011, 17:43

Work to Live: Can you show me where Urge has insulted anyone? His posts are thoughtful and honest - can't say the same for everyone posting here.

worldrover

19th Dec 2011, 11:59

Unfortunately, still no reply from someone that has been already flying the A330 for HNA. Urge does not count, he said he just signed in for training.

Its hard to believe that no members fly for them. Oh well...

If anybody knows anything more it would be a big help. For the rest of you that care to give some info although you don't work for HNA, what are the duty max for CAAC?

Urge, just because you recently joined, do they count all your flight time in the monthly max or just until the relief takes over (trying to see how many RT to SEA -or similar- you can fly per month before you hit 80). Per Diem for the overnights or nothing like it mentioned?

Any answer to my previous question on licence check times?

Thanks

urge

20th Dec 2011, 08:45

WorldRover,

Some of those questions i previously answered on Page 2, so go back and read my posts.

There is no per diem, but they give you an allowance which is around $1100/mo, so just call that per diem. You get free meals when eating at the layover hotels, other than that, you are on your own.

Duty limits per ICAO, but chinese do stretch some rules for the rest and what's not counted as duty, IE. Plane broke for 6 hours, then you need to sleep in the plane to ensure you get your rest before taking off again.

They do not do R/Ts to and from base. Read previous posts.

Rotorhead1026

20th Dec 2011, 09:03

Are we trying to change the world or are we just pilots that are trying to have fun and enjoy our lives?

+1, and well said, but remember this ...

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."

which explains many of the posts on Pprune. Many post here who only pose as pilots.

worldrover

20th Dec 2011, 12:34

Thanks urge. Can you tell me how long it took you to have your licence verified by CAAC? Agency recommended for HNA maybe?

Rotorhead, well noted mate. Many posers in this forum

JotaJota

20th Dec 2011, 16:45

Yep... BEWARE!

cameltoad

21st Dec 2011, 03:35

USMCprobe
Thanks for the info, from what you see any ideas on how long places like spring, Tianjin, BCA (by the way, who is that) will actively need expat Capt's?
thanks:ok:

USMCProbe

21st Dec 2011, 17:12

Cameltoad;
Sorry, if I was that smart I would be a stock trader, not a loser pilot. Currently Spring is doing much better than BCA/Tianjin. Tianjin only got 320's because BCA is losing a pi$$ing contest with the CAAC. Who knows the outcome. Not me. China is La La Land. Just because something is going good or bad, it doesn't mean anything.

If I were going to apply today, I would apply to Spring, but try to avoid the huge bonuses at the end, and get more money up front. My opinion.

BCA treats me great as well. NO complaints in that department, and I think Tianjin is the same. I think if you sign for one, the current "new-guy" contracts require that you fly for either.

worldrover

24th Dec 2011, 11:19

Loser! Loser! I could hear this allover airports around the world, even when I was there as a passenger.
Did not know if people were yelling at me or someone else:confused:

I was not smart enough to realize, hence I ended up flying this metal tubes, pulling and pushing knobs and buttons like a monkey...

Damn, I knew I should have tried to become a ....stock trader(!) instead.

Thank you for making it clear for all of us USMCP, I am sure everyone in PPRUNE will appreciate it:E

Merry Christmas everybody, we might be losers but we get the girl in the end

Akali Dal

26th Dec 2011, 03:16

Merry Christmas everybody, we might be losers but we get the girl in the endhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

What a sexually deprived piece of work! Be careful of what you wish for. A young Ppruner recently wrote this in response to a similar post and I reproduce it here:

....the only china dolls going for you would be the " itch-ai-eve " infested gold diggers doing the Lord's work for humanity.

" Ha ha ha...that reminds me of my uncle's story about an American phantom jockey who knocked up a Vietnamese girl during the 60's and told the crying girl " in 9 months' time you will give birth to a lovely baby girl...name her LIBERTY in memory of this wonderful night. God bless America! The poor girl retorted in her halting English " in a few weeks you you you willll willll will have sprouted some some some home home home grown cauliflowers on your frrrront frrront front inch...call it Vietnam Rose. Viva le Vietnam and Uncle Ho! "

;););)

p/s my italics and bold letters.

Samba Anaconda

26th Dec 2011, 03:49

Oooops, oh dear oh dear. You gonna get this thread expunged you dummy!!! Never ever mock the great USA:=:=:=

A-3TWENTY

26th Dec 2011, 04:42

Hi
Spring airlines recently raised Its salary .What are the new conditions now ?

A320

USMCProbe

26th Dec 2011, 11:08

Somewhere around 20k, but there are so many bonuses it is hard to add up, including the monthly fuel savings bonus. Over 70k in bonuses comes at the end of months 24 and 36, but even if you get shorted those it is still 18k a month. At least that is what I got from one contract agent.

I don't know anybody there personally, but second hand info says everyone is getting paid in full, including bonuses.

Hudini

6th Jan 2012, 09:33

If you add up Spring's total pay including bonuses and divide by 36 it's more like 17k month. That's a big IF because you have to last the whole 3 years to get that money. And a chunk of it is reimbursements only. 2k USD a month for housing/restaurants. 10k USD a year for commuting. They will not pay you without a fa piao or boarding pass.

And the contract has teeth. If you get a serious safety infraction they take 10% of your 12k/year 'safety bonus'. 2 infractions cost you 40%. 3 and you get ZERO. How is that? QAR. Every parameter on every flight is recorded and examined. Capturing the ILS from above and not stable below 1000'? Safety infraction. You got crappy vectors from ATC? Too bad. Taxi too fast? Safety infraction. Now there are levels to these, 1-2-3 with 3 being the worst (at least haven't heard of a 4 yet but there probably is and you get sent straight home like the Korean captain at JuneYao). I haven't heard of anyone losing their bonus yet though. Fingers crossed.

I can say the girls in the foreign pilot's office are sharp and take care of most things. I've been pleased with all my dealings with the company proper. My experience is very limited though so don't take it as gospel.

POWDERFINGER

8th Jan 2012, 01:58

Hudini,

How does a Hainan pilot fare with regards to his CAAC license when he leaves the company?

It appears that expat pilots elsewhere don't get to keep their certificates, and are required to surrender them for cancellation before leaving China. Going to another Chinese airline requires a letter of release from the first employer and a re-issuance of the pilot certificate.

Re-issuance may mean re-taking the written and checkride.

Hudini

8th Jan 2012, 02:26

I've only talked to one pilot coming to Spring about this. I believe he had only to take the company PC. IIRC his CAAC sim check and written did not have to be done a 2nd time. Not 100% sure though. I will ask him when I see him again.

tcas69

8th Jan 2012, 09:47

When we left MU for HU there was a smooth transition concerning our licence, no hassle from CAAC. Medical was bumpy for some guys as PEK redid some examinations.
But maybe we were the exception to the rule

urge

27th Jan 2012, 20:00

To USMCprobe, DualAirBleedFault, and Athreetwenty and any other constant negative posters,

The A320 to A330 CCQ program has been approved. In fact, pilots that have completed their CCQ have been taking their CAAC check rides AND passing. Addtionally, these pilots are now in training at Hainan Airlines. So that should settle that issue.

Additionally guys on the A330 are getting more time off than their contract says, since they are knocking their hours out faster, and can go home with no penalty to their leave balance. Sometimes an extra 2-5 days. And these are guys not on some crappy 6 weeks on/ 2 weeks off program either. Oh wait, USMCProbe says how great a 6 week on and 3 week off roster is, but it's not that one too. it's the monthly 10 days off program. The roster that is really good, but then again that's for A330 guys.

I'm sure those three i mentioned will still find a way to harp on their awful A320 Schedules, layovers, hotels, pollution, and food like they do on every post even when it's not relevant. This was an A330/CCQ post. Oh yeah, USMCProbe works at a company under HNAir, so therefore all 10 companies under HNAir are exactly the same for all the different types of airplanes (narrow and wide-body). When i give advice it's company, not group specific, and it's aircraft specific (in this case wide body A330 flying,skeds, and treatment). My advice is only worth 1 cent.

vikena

28th Jan 2012, 07:49

Waltair your view above has the naivety of something a 6 year old would say

Go eat your din dins and then mama will put you to bed

V

urge

28th Jan 2012, 20:35

Waltair,

It's not as easy as that. Plenty of guys have learned to try and speak the language, and embrace the culture yet get harassed by management as much as their peers that don't do anything. Companies like Korean Air, don't care about what you've done for them the past 12 years, they only care about now and have no concept of being understanding or fair because they don't think they have to. Captains at Korean Air can get written up by their F/Os, and have no way to defend themselves of any accusations. Don't get the name of who wrote them up or no fair response. You are guilty first, regardless if you had a flawless record for the past decade and no issues at all. I've seen this happen with many pilots there. That's just Korean Air. There are definitely airlines in China that are trying to handle the expat issue but you have to remember the country - communist. It's their way, which is fine, since it's their rules but when they don't abide by the contract, they wrote and signed for, then that's where the problems arise. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Fortunately, i haven't had to deal with this yet, but many contractual complaints are valid. The complaints i take issue with are the same negative ones that group ALL chinese airlines or ALL aircraft types (wide body and narrow). There are major differences company to company and plane type to plane type. Perhaps what you say rings true with some of the repeat negative posters on this forum. But it's really not that simple.

DauphinDude

28th Jan 2012, 23:03

Waltair your view above has the naivety of something a 6 year old would say

Go eat your din dins and then mama will put you to bed

V

Wow. That´s harsh for someone simply asking if anyone else has an open mind concerning other cultures, and perhaps getting something out of it.

jimmyg

29th Jan 2012, 00:31

urge!

Please do not forget to mention the 2 plus months you will spend working as an F/O until they deem you worthy to move back to the left seat.:ugh:

USMCProbe

29th Jan 2012, 13:28

"It's not as easy as that. Plenty of guys have learned to try and speak the language, and embrace the culture yet get harassed by management as much as their peers that don't do anything."

Hey Urge;
Since you have only been there a month or two, and are not even on line yet, how would you have such in-depth knowledge of a company that you don't yet work for? Sounds about as knowledgeable as your narrow-vs-widebody rants.

There are some serious drawbacks to working in China. Your treatment by your co-workers will not be one of them, unless you are a complete @#$%. If you try to learn Chinese, not only will that make the locals happy, they will do everything they can to help you.

I should take the above advice and learn more myself.

On Final

29th Jan 2012, 22:33

Hello Gents,

Sorry, this is a little long but I am bored this morning drinking my coffee.

I read through the posts here and feel many facts have been presented about China by USMCProbe, DualAirBleedFault and others that have spent time in CHINA, not Asia but China. I have been flying here just about 4 years now and see the good and bad. I have read the posts here and talked to many friends that have had ups and downs in China. Some came from Spring Air (fired) , Shenzhen (not bad), JuneYao (fired), Sichuan (good but Sim bust to right seat and quit), Chengdu Airlines (good but 1 fired), Capital (good), China Southern (contract breech). China can be very good or a nightmare. If you are in China getting paid and things are working out, consider yourself very very lucky...! I am not the expert but I am living it and flying it have many friends still here, and some that left.

I am sure there are other flying in China that are happy somewhere getting paid not posting here on Pprune. Pilots that are unhappy tend to make it known that is why there are many negative threads. On the other hand in China being negative can be a reality. Maybe like the negative you hear from the Sand Box..ha. I would take a long and hard look at the negative posts that I feel are 90% dead on...!

I had some people I know that went to Hainan years ago were pissed off about reimbursements were not be paid back. I heard, but dont know about the A320 to A330 CCQ but think it may be a challenge. I finished a 3 year A320 contact, CCQ'd to A330. Believe me, you have many chances to make mistakes, if your airline doesnt like you, you are gone...!

I never had to fly the right seat for CCQ, but training does take forever here, the Chinese way. From CCQSim in Beijing to flying as captain maybe 4 to 6 months. You will have many people, leader types, instructors riding along with you each flight until completion. When you make it, it is your lucky day..!

What I am getting at is from what I have heard, Hainan is better than Korean Air but not as friendly as Sichuan. I heard the Korean A330 maybe good, not like the 777 class that 6 or 7 highly skilled Captain never made it to the line..! I will have that report in another month.

As long as you feel confident your airline will not chew you up and spit you out, then go for it..! But, keep in mind like all of the experienced pilots are talking about on these posts, its China and not as easy sometimes as a western mind can comprehend. With children pissing on the streets, breathing the air, cant eat out at the food joints in fear of poisoning, internet blocked, phones blocked, language barrier( crowded cockpits, translators, extra pilots)the list goes on and on. It does have a tendency to wear your ass out after awhile, China will make you tired....! My wife is Chinese, I have 2 cars a apartment (own it) I am living the local life in China, even speak fair Chinese still makes me tired...hehe.

I am looking later to live and work in another country. I want to be based where I work and not commuting, forget that idea..! I want to fly the flight to my base and fly my flight back, NO Dead Heading. The 6/2 or similar type scked will kill you trying to commute to the west from China.

So Urge, I will be checking from time to time and look forward to your real time reports here in PPRUNE on Hainan because I am looking and either Germany or Australia or maybe even the USA when I finish my current contract.

I wish you luck..!

On Final

USMCProbe

30th Jan 2012, 11:49

Just what On Final says. And he has been here longer than me.

I would just add one thing, and that is you won't ever be treated better on a daily basis by coworkers, anywhere.

BUT, consider yourself lucky if it works out for you. There are an infinite number of reasons that it won't. Most of them are out of your control.

hongkongfooey

2nd Feb 2012, 03:07

Great post, on final :ok:

Urge, be a man and post what really happens to you over the next 12 months in China, it will make some very interesting reading me thinks.

POWDERFINGER

2nd Feb 2012, 23:14

At the risk of having yet another of my posts deleted from this forum, I offer a thumbs up on the post by urge. Flying in Asia is one thing, with its challenges. China is a whole different ballgame - a world unto itself.

Have fun, learn the language, and do your best to avoid the pitfalls that are as much at Hainan as anywhere else in China. The common thread is high pay with working and living conditions that require an acrobat's flexibility to tolerate.

urge

3rd Feb 2012, 22:05

By USMCProbe:
Hey Urge;
Since you have only been there a month or two, and are not even on line yet, how would you have such in-depth knowledge of a company that you don't yet work for? Sounds about as knowledgeable as your narrow-vs-widebody rants.

Quite ironic that USMCProbe is questioning my in-depth knowledge of Hainan Airlines because I've only been there for a month or two, but USMCProbe has NEVER worked at Hainan Airlines!!! He thinks he is an expert because he has worked at another Hainan Group airline, and thinks all of the 10 companies are run exactly the same. (How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like that???!!!). I get my knowledge from guys that are working there right now that have supplied me tons of help for training, on their flight schedules, on dealing with the company, and pay and many other issues. I've talked to each foreign community that is represented there (australians, austrians, belgians, spanish, taiwanese, korean, etc.). I know information about THIS company and could care less about talking on any of the other 9 airline companies or 20 other non-aviation companies that the Hainan Group owns. That's the difference here: USMCProbe and others that have never flown at this company, only harp about their experience working for another company and try to apply for all Chinese airlines. Heck, why don't you apply it to all Asian airlines, if you are going to generalize. Why don't you apply the asian way to just all asians, living in asia or not, while you are at it.

And USMCProbe attacks me on my rebuttals about widebody vs narrowbody differences. Let's see, this post was about widebody, and his posting is about narrowbody and how miserable that is flying that, but wants to apply that to widebody flying where the pilots spend more than 1/2 their flying time outside of China. In fact many of them spend over 75% of their time outside of China. How do i know? Well, i was given the FEB roster for every CAP that works at Hainan Air that flies the A330, A340, and B767. But what do I know, i only work there and have flown Widebodies for considerable amount of time for another asian carrier and for a non-asian carrier. In fact my last asian carrier, i only did one domestic flight on average, every 6 months and was staying at top resorts/hotels on 5 different continents. Not sure how all the postings by USMCProbe and his other bitter cohorts on the A320 apply when you aren't staying at smaller cities in China, and dealing with all of their complaints about food, pollution, and scheduling.

PooPoo me all you want, but my postings relate to what's being specifically asked about and i don't go around generalizing saying what happens at my company is or will happen at yours! I'm not drinking any Kool Aid here. I know some guys personallly that have gotten a bad deal at some Chinese airlines and it was the company's fault, not theirs. I know plenty of other stories of other guys from their friends. But those issues pertained usually to narrowbody (A320 and B737 flying) and domestic flying. There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between narrow and wide and i'm flown both to know. So to appease USMCProbe's attack on my indepth knowledge, can he say he has the required knowledge base like me? I've flown both Boeing and Airbus in both narrow and widebodies, as well as other aircraft. I've flown commercially, privately, and military. F-4s, F-18s, and so on, and i've flown on 5 continents. Sorry if Antarctica and Africa didn't make my list of prerequisites to be "knowledgable".

It's getting really ridiculous hearing from the USMCProbe, Hong Kong Fooey ("be a man and really report what happens"), DualAirBleedFault (a USMCProbe cult follower like the JoePa followers that think he did no wrong), and the other A320 waste-of-space negative posters on everything China. Pilots are known to whine, but usually it's on stuff that really does pertain to all or we make it clear that it's relevant for a specific group. These half-empty guys want to rain on everyone's parade to make themselves feel better. Well my umbrella is open!

USMCProbe

3rd Feb 2012, 23:44

"But what do I know, i only work there and have flown Widebodies for considerable amount of time for another asian carrier and for a non-asian carrier. In fact my last asian carrier, i only did one domestic flight on average, every 6 months and was staying at top resorts/hotels on 5 different continents." Urge.

Interesting post again Urge. Since you have already flown widebody, including in Asia, how is it you are doing a 330 CCQ? It is for 320 Capts. Since you are talking about Hainan, why not discuss your last Asian carrier that you "flew widebodies".

Me thinks you are a 16 year old wannabe fanboy sitting in front of his computer. Go to sleep now, you have to go to school tomorrow.

USMCProbe

4th Feb 2012, 01:29

I Just clicked on URGE's other posts. He is also on some Korean Air posts, and claims to have worked there and know everything. Interestingly he is also on some turboprop pilot posts. Why would a god-like widebody Captain be posting on a turbo-prop forum?

If you flew 330's for KAL URGE, again, why are you doing a 320-330 CCQ for Hainan? KAL flies 330's, but not 320's, and you wouldn't have to go through the CCQ process.

seventhreedriver

4th Feb 2012, 02:32

I had exactly the same feelings...

USMCProbe

4th Feb 2012, 03:43

Originally Posted by flyinaggie http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/63144-transport-canada-conversion.html#post1080023)
Has anyone on here done the FAA to Transport Canada license conversion test for an ATP? How did it go?

Also, do you have any books or manuals that you would recommend to study with?

As I understand it, SIC type ratings do not exist with TC, so if I have a few of those and convert the license, will they convert as full PIC type ratings?

All of your SIC ratings will transfer and will show up on your TC license as the aircraft type rating but it doesn't distinguish it from a PIC or SIC. Use that to your advantage!

Additionally, when converting, you have to get your TC medical done first. Your medical license number is your pilot number. if you are in the US, do a search of FAA examiners to see if any are TC medical qualified as well. I did that in my city and found my FAA doc could check off both.

AFter you get the medical done, you then have to take the Canadian ATP test. Take a test prep (highly recommend). They have online study programs that cost about $75-100. You then have to take the exam at a TC test site, which are only in Canada. Once you past the test, you can take the certificate to any TC office and take your FAA licenses, your logbooks to confirm you have hours on each aircraft. The only issue that sometimes comes up with a TC office, which you need to print out ahead of time, so they understand is that the get confused about your ATP license. Many countries, including Canada want to see the ATP license and Instrument Rating (current) on our license. Of course, the FAA ATP includes the Instrument Rating and some TC staff don't understand. I had to have them pull out their manuals to show them, and even though had to argue. To make your life easier, bring the FAA verbiage on what an ATP license entails.

Hope that helps
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/report.php?p=1080417)

The above is cut and pasted from one of URGE's posts on Airlinepilotforums. On that forum, he claims to be an A330 Capt at KAL and also has intimate knowledge of AirAsia hiring, getting furloughed from JAL, in addition to some UPS and Fedex posts.

The most interesting was the above. It was about converting an FAA license to a Transport Canada license. In the first line of his response, he appears to know that Transport Canada does not distinguish between FAA logged SIC time, and PIC time, and he states: "Use that to your advantage."

Faker pilot? Falsified PIC? I believe the date of the post was 11-6-2011, just 3 months ago.

I am still betting on a kid, who is doing his background work to someday be a widebody pilot.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1080417)

USMCProbe

4th Feb 2012, 04:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmacdaddy http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/63144-transport-canada-conversion-2.html#post1087499)

________________________________________________

The ROC-A is only needed if you are going to work in Canada. Many guys are getting their types in Canada (much cheaper and quicker than the US) and working elsewhere in the world. That's why the ROC A is not mandatory. The original poster did not say if he was going to work in Canada. I'm not working in Canada after I received my TC type ratings; I'm in Asia.

________________________________________________________

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/report.php?p=1088444) The above is another post by URGE about converting to a Canadian license. Sounds like he might be a fake pilot. From his posts he definitely doesn't sound like he has any real experience. He laundered his background by converting from an FAA to a TC license, then tried to get a job in Asia. Or did.

Hey URGE, if you are an American I have some bad news for you. The CAAC Airport ID includes a background check. They personally call 1 guy in Oklahoma City(I know him), and verbally verify our backgrounds. If yours doesn't check out, you will be sent home.
Maybe Korean will take you back?
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/quote.gify (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1088444)

urge

4th Feb 2012, 04:14

USMCProbe,

I"m NOT doing the CCQ program. I did that for Korean. (USMCProbe says "KAL doesn't have CCQ). And once again how misinformed you are about KAL because they are one of the first companies if not the first that did the A320 CCQ to A330 program. They started that back in 2007. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!! Where did i ever say i was doing a CCQ for Hainan Airlines?. I had given an update about the CCQ status at Hainan Airlines because YOU said it wasn't approved and good luck to anyone going into Hainan Airlines and hoping they have an airline to work at since CAAC wasn't going to allow it or drag their heels on it. I posted an update in JAN debunking that because the first 5 guys all got approved and passed their CCQ CAAC check rides starting in JAN. I was on the lot before that. So that should settle that issue.

And once again an attack on my flying resume?! Are you kidding me? I already had an extensive flying background from military to commercial to include fast jets (F-4 and F-18) to yes, even turboprops in my past from 22 years ago when i did some test pilot stuff. I flew P-3, E-2, and military King Air so keep jabbing. And those are certified turboprops. Even have a sweringer type.

As for the TC license, that you also tried to make a stab at, it was in reference to someone's else's question which i'm not going into detail to explain; people can read the thread cause too long. Plus I can give advice/input for other topics just like anyone else, so where are you to question me on providing remarks about UPS, FEDEX, or ANA? When i make comments there, I'm providing info that's useful, supported to help out. We all have friends at other airlines or management friends that we relay their true stories to provide some help. Your comments on Chinese Airlines have been mostly derogative and usually do not help the original poster. Your responses are off topic. I try to address a poster's concern directly and it's just two cents worth of info but it's relevant. THAT IS SOMETHING YOU COULD TAKE A NOTE ON!

Once again, amazing when you get questioned on your weak and unsupported statements and proven how wrong you are, that you can't throw in the towel. IT's really pitiful.

REmember, for the new people joining this thread, this all started originally because people like USMCProbe are doing the exact opposite of what these forums are intended for. Everyone has heard the saying how PPrune is nothing but negative stuff all the time and it's the same posters. Well, USMCProbe is one of these people and i'm calling him out like some of the other posters. They go around hijacking posts that are not directly related. Is there some relationship to his posts? Well of course, if you think that the conditions from his airline actually should be applied to every Chinese airline! Those are his comments. He applies his A320 (narrow body) experience and says that's how it's going to be on on the wide body fleet. For all of you new readers to the post, have you read the very first post to this thread? Here it is:

[I][SIZE="5"]Thinking of joining them for their A330/340 fleet.

They offer bases for commuting pilots in a few European and US cities (roster to end and start there... they will try for it to happen they say).

Any latest info on their scheduling policy(is it just a promise...), the atmosphere and attitude towards expats there (if it has improved at all) and any other insiders info will be greatly appreciated. I hear they are pretty desperate.

Its kind of a giant leap to go there from Europe, but the money (they promise) looks good, the fleet routes are good and the situation in Europe (or US) sucks, so I am either there or considering the UAE.

The poster wants to know about A330, not A320. Schedules for wide body, not domestic narrow body. Commuting Bases for the A330. And how Hainan Airlines is treating their pilots, not another one of the 9 airlines under the Hainan Group, but specifically for Hainan Airlines. Do i have to explain that any more?! USMCProbe is way out of line speaking as fact, which might be for his airline, plane, and experience but it has no relevance to what this original poster wanted. He does that, along with the other negative posters, on most of his postings. Now you can listen to what i've said and understand that i'm trying to help the PPrune forum, or you can just lump me in with him. Can't see how when i'm trying to clear up the misconceptions, non relevant materials, and overall negativity. Look, China is not some "end of the rainbow" place. I know that and i'm hoping my experience is 100% positive, but i know there is a risk to coming to this country and airline but it was well-researched not just by forums, but personal contact within the company with multiple people with varying years in the company, on type, and overall contract experience. To be fair, i'm not saying that what USMCProbe and other negative posters are wrong. In fact, i listen very carefully to what they say and do take notes because they aren't posting lies. I believe in them, but you have to apply it to your airline. If you are thinking of going to their airlines or flying their fleet, then you should listen carefully to what he and the others say. In fact, their postings helped me shy away from going back to the A320 because i know about the domestic issues with pollution, poor hotels, bad scheduling.... (they speak the truth). This isn't a "he said, she said" thing. This is about posting in the correct places, relevant material. This case is closed for me. (Except that i will update my personal experience for those thinking of coming here with relevant facts while i'm here).

USMCProbe

4th Feb 2012, 04:46

A test pilot as well? Wow. Anything else?

urge

4th Feb 2012, 04:54

From JimmyG,
urge!

Please do not forget to mention the 2 plus months you will spend working as an F/O until they deem you worthy to move back to the left seat.

What JimmyG wrote is somewhat correct. It's not in your contract but it's known that it's possible that you might have to do that. Some pilots have been through the training program and have had to the F/O for a max of two months, to learn the Chinese ATC because of the domestic flying. More experienced guys get to bypass it. Remember, They got CAP pay, while sitting in the right seat. I didn't hear a true gripe from those that actually did that because they just accepted it as training. More info to come.

USMCProbe

4th Feb 2012, 06:43

Well URGE, if you are everything you say you are, on this and the APC forum, here goes. You are a:

Discharged (your words) US Navy Test Pilot.

Twice furloughed US legacy airline pilot, from the same airline I am from. Fancy that. Since you were twice furloughed (sorry if it is true), that would make you an FO at my airline.

You took your credentials, went across the border and got a Transport Canada license where you used your knowledge of the conversion to convert your airline FO time to PIC time.

Went to KAL as a 320 CCQ to 330 Captain. But didn't get 500 hours. Did they "out" you?

Came to Hainan for a 330 job, but haven't flown yet.

Might be plausible, but my guess is just a kid. But if you are not a kid that makes you a fake.

NoodleAir

4th Feb 2012, 08:00

Sounds like someone plays Sherlock Holmes here....

urge

4th Feb 2012, 20:17

Just a bit off on the info. Not twice furloughed from the same airline. Furloughed in training the first time, when i decided to come back to the US over 10 years ago. First mistake. Then decided to come back again to what i thought was a "true" legacy airline, (cargo), and got put into a pool. I consider that a furlough. Was willing to start at the bottom of FedEx. Second Mistake. Thank god i didn't wait, for i would have been in the pool for 5 years! Maybe that's my 3rd mistake and should have gone 5 years later but like USMC, i'm chasing the dough. Gun for Hire.

I think the Asian markets are way better than anywhere else. The US pax carriers are all in big trouble, except for Southwest. The only thing worth doing in the US is cargo. When all the international carriers start flying the big metal to more US cities on nonstops, then the US international carriers will be doomed when the US citizens realize how much better the service is with foreign carriers. I'm jumping to China just like everyone else, but realizing i'm taking a risk in doing so. The interview and check were hard enough, but I'm hoping i picked the right company that treats their expats properly.

USMCProbe

5th Feb 2012, 00:42

Sorry URGE, you posted on United Airlines section of APC, claiming to be a twice furloughed United pilot.. You were inquiring about recall rights and dates. Same airline I worked for but I took a voluntary leave as I have a bit better seniority.

After your second furlough, you laundered your SIC time to PIC time by doing a Canadian license conversion. According to you.

I still think you are a 16 year old "troll".

USMCProbe

5th Feb 2012, 00:48

Back on topic, finally. Less than two weeks ago I jumpseated on a Hainan Air 330 flow by an expat. After we landed in SYX I asked him about what kind of schedules the expats were getting. He said in the past year they do almost exclusively domestic. He said over a year ago they used to get a decent amount of international.

The 330 does do some decent domestic trips. He was doing a PEK-SYX-PEK. Almost 745 hours flight time for a one day trip and he gets to sleep in his own bed that night.

I haven't heard anything more about the 330 CCQ and I have asked a couple of 737 guys at Hainan. They didn't know.

USMCProbe

5th Feb 2012, 01:17

Sorry guys, back off topic as I am having a lot of fun with this. I just check APC again. In the last 24 hours URGE has changed his profile. He no longer claims on his profile to have flown any aircraft, and he doesn't claim any longer to be a "wide-body captain". Prior to this, and I checked yesterday, he claimed to be ex military, flew 707, 727, 737, a couple more Boeings, SA227, the A320, and A330. They have now been removed from his "profile".

Maybe I am wrong about you being a 16 year old? Maybe you are a fake. I will look into this with my parent company. I just had the head of the Safety Department at Hainan Airlines jumpseat on my aircraft 2 months ago. Nice guy and speaks near perfect english. He gave me his card..................

Cachorrao

5th Feb 2012, 10:00

With all these things about Hainan and hiring companies, then perhaps, this is the real deal:

Parc Aviation Recruitment and Resourcing (http://www.parcaviation.aero/pages/current_assignments/tech_support.asp?RMURL=VacDetail%2Easp%3FCommAdSeqNo%3D2030)

radarvector320

6th Feb 2012, 04:47

There is something about airplanes, ego's and fakes that go together. They are everywhere and a lot of them are trying their luck in China. Beware!!

EAM

6th Feb 2012, 10:49

With all these things about Hainan and hiring companies, then perhaps, this is the real deal:

Its not! You will be a junior Cpt, which actually means you are a FO in the left seat. Now all EU bases will be changed to B777, so very few chances of a EU base, presently its just MAD.

Soab

7th Feb 2012, 12:27

Thats very ambiguous. Two months training, at least 12 months as Cruise Captain or FO.

No set time to PIC, could take years or until you get p%$$@! off and leave.

Maybe I could understand offering A320 FOs A330 FO or Cruise Capt slots with upgrade 'possibly' within 3 years, but Capts??

Has anyone accepted such an offer?

USMCProbe

7th Feb 2012, 12:52

SUSMCProbe,

Just wanted to give you a heads up. First of all on forums, people tend to get heated and sometimes find themselves embellishing to get a point across which there is no doubt I have. I can't give all the details on the forum for the program I'm in. Anyhow, some Chinese airlines are hiring guys with no PIC time on type and some are doing it with under 500 as long as you have good number of hours and PIC time. International experience is useful too. Hainan Airlines is working both, and i've only seen a couple recruiters advertising for one of them.
Anyhow, I am a twice furloughed guy that is trying to make ends meet, and to keep a roof over my head and feed my family. You are fortunate enough to be able to take a leave at UAL while many of us did not have that opportunity. I'm kind of leading the bunch on how this program goes, so I must be positive. If i can get through, then it opens up the doors for those guys with high hours but with PIC time elsewhere. Nothing is official yet, but hoping other furloughees that had to go international might have a chance of salvaging their careers for awhile. What I am asking is for you to not rock the boat on this program please. Not sure if Hainan Airlines is doing anything different under the Hainan Group or not relative to the other airlines. Yes, we can sling mud all day long on a forum but now it's on a different level when it could affect a family.

__________________________________________________________

Sorry, off topic again. URGE pmailed me a couple of times, the first one civil, the second one threatening. I told him I would not post his first email to PPRUNE, but then he threatened me as well. The mantra of the guilty?

Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. His first pmail is cut and pasted from my PPRUNE email. His second email is far worse.

This guy deserves the 2012 Darwin Award for Career Progression. He "outed" himself, publicly, on PPRUNE and APC. If he had just kept his mouth and keyboard shut, he might have had a shot at pulling it off, as I am sure many others have. I still can't believe it.

From his first couple of posts over a month ago, I just thought the guy was a kid. He had a small amount of knowledge, but it seemed like little real experience. Add his immature rants at everyone. I really thought he was a 16 year old. When I was glancing at my old airline forum on APC, and saw URGE, I still thought he was a kid, looking for info.

URGE, you are my hero.

"Snatching Defeat, from the jaws of Victory"

USMCProbe

7th Feb 2012, 12:57

Soab;
Yeah exactly my thoughts. Giving up the left seat, for the right, in the contract world? For LESS MONEY than just getting a 320 job in the same city?

Unless they open it up to right seaters, I would be surprised if too many signed on. Wait a minute, I forgot about URGE.

captjns

7th Feb 2012, 13:39

Contimplating interviewing with Hainan. Any input on QOL, honoring T&Cs? Thanks for any input.

NoodleAir

8th Feb 2012, 03:39

USProbe this is really humiliating for you amigo
I've followed your dialogues with urge in this forum but I would never expect someone to fall so low.

Playing Sherlock is not enough for you, then you launch a witch-hunt in HNA and KAL forums for an unnamed forum member that you suspect to be fake!!!!!!! How laughable is that. Why don't you call their mgmt instead?
Then you 're posting his PM(!) for us to see.... There is nothing wrong in his reply
If someone sounds like a kid this is you: "someone called me a whiner and that I only fly NB, I'll show him now...." Pathetic attitude. Its hard to believe you are flying planes

Everybody knows the Chinese monitor these forums and everybody knows how many problems have been created from our own comments in forums (starting from good old HK and Cathay examples).
If you cannot help by sharing information then stay out of these forums.
Many people just listen and hardly ever post. You don't have to pollute their screens with soap opera level of comments and confrontations (and so many posts boy!)

Get a life

DauphinDude

8th Feb 2012, 06:12

Yeah, people gets scared not to post :-/

urge

8th Feb 2012, 06:15

Thank you Noodle Air for seeing thru what USMCProbe is doing. I am shocked that he takes offense that i'm saying his advice is not pertinent for the original poster of this thread and he's being so vindictive. Anyhow, i have to clear the air now, since he not only posted a PM i sent him, but then accused me of threatening him with a second PM and that that email was way worse. Well, why didn't he post that PM then, if that was the case? Maybe because i found some questionable things he said on the forum and how we misquoted me, placed words in my mouth to look as if i had given illegal advice to someone about a type rating conversion in Canada. Well, i will let people read the PM to ascertain for themselves if my PM was threatening, bad, or out of line. My whole premise was to avoid putting details on a forum, because of what NoodleAir said is correct; the Chinese do peruse on forums. My focus wasn't on me when addressing him, it was for the group of pilots trying to get into new programs that are coming online much like Air Asia hiring F/O's as A320 DECs. I didn't want to waste my time trying to defend myself on every attack USMCProbe wanted to throw at me, but he had already gone a bit far before, but with his last posting of my PM, that finally did it along with his inaccurate accusations of threats. Please read for yourself. I am not going to continue feeding into his misguided efforts after this. So here is the 2nd PM i sent him below uncut.

PM Sent FEB 06
If it’s just me that you’re inquiring about, that’s fine, but it’s the program I’m concerned about. I was asking about being tact with questioning the program, since sub-500 PIC, junior CAP, and some other programs are starting up that would help a lot of guys but they are not firmly cemented. I’m not worried about my pilot credentials, like type ratings and military/commercial experience.

As for the CCQ issue in Canada reply, you posted a huge character defamation. I never said in my post that you can use your knowledge to convert F/O logged time to PIC logged time. That can’t be done since it has to be verified by the FAA first. The poster asked “As I understand it, SIC type ratings do not exist with TC. So if I have a few of those and convert the license, will they convert as full PIC type ratings?” It was about the type ratings, not logged time. And my answer is accurate, that TC does not distinguish between the two. FAA does if you try to convert from TC to FAA, because they request all training paperwork to validate directly from TC, not the applicant. I then said to use it to your advantage, because as an F/O, applying for an F/O position, some foreign companies want a PIC type, which shouldn’t be required if you are applying for an F/O position. I just didn’t go on the forum to counter what you said. It’s one thing to question someone’s opinion, but character attacks are another.

And for a previous service member, I can’t believe you posted me being “discharged” as a negative character attack again. I was honorably “discharged”, not separated or retired. There is a huge difference between these military exits from the eyes of the military. I think you to need pull it back a notch on any military career attacks.

A fake pilot I am not, it’s how I technically used some of the words that could give a different impression, but the wording is correct regardless. China does a comprehensive check, and they have a valid process to confirm info, and I’m comfortable with their system. All I ask from you is to not discredit or grieve about their programs. Not sure if it really matters, but would rather show concern for the other pilots looking to get into these programs.

Consider this scenario. What if I did a reverse inquiry thru my company on someone trying to check up on me from Capitol? What if I showed them that this person had posted advice on a forum advising any other pilot flying for a Chinese airline to unethically circumvent a battery powered blood pressure tester and that you can just pay an 18 year old Chinese person to wear it for 24 hours. In fact, you said the next time you’ll do it. Not sure if you didn’t do it the first time. How do you think your contact person, your company or the CAAC will react to that? If I was going to be vindictive that wouldn’t look good for anyone. We both know that there are pilots everywhere, friends, coworkers from your previous companies that are doing things to keep their medical licenses. If I pursued this, I could in fact be jeopardizing other people’s jobs at your current company, other Hainan group companies or throughout China. That’s my point and why I ask you to walk discretely if you are going down this path. Believe it or not, there isn’t that much dirt on me concerning what an employer would want to know about me. You have your other clarifications up top. Take care.

worldrover

8th Feb 2012, 08:56

DauphinDude, what do you mean by this comment? "people gets scared not to post":confused:

NoodleAir, I agree with your comments. I previously commented on someone naming people as fake on this forum. Actually posting names!!!
This does look like a witch hunt. I checked the KAL thread and Probe's "heads up" inquiry about Urge. Ridiculous.-

I read some good posts from Probe that were quite informative and thats what he should stick to.

This obsession that some members have with what they call "fakes" is very harmful for the expat community.
If you look into the facts (no rumours and allegations) excepting Indians, Vietnamese and other Asian countries licensed pilots, there have been less than a handful of cases of westerners that were accused of manipulating their credentials. And even in these cases, we do not know how things were proven to be later at the courts. Sure enough these pilots lost their jobs, but I am not sure they lost their defending cases in the end. Counting your PICUS as PIC is one thing, manufacturing a license from scratch is another.

Most of the "loud" cases were examples of the latter, with people having 200TT and pretending to be Jet rated, or 500 F/O pretending to be Cpts with 5000TT. Every single pilot I know can distinguish someone like that by the way they even take their seat in the sim ride. With JAA and FAA license background, and especially with airline certified logged hours, you are very limited with what you can pretend to be.

Now, China is kind of an aviation Eldorado right now, with the authorities and the companies trying to catch up with the explosive growth, while they do not know exactly how to handle things, check credentials etc. That is why we think they are too strict with some things and too lenient (clueless I would say) with others.
They do offer high salaries in return, but their checks and tests are quite strict from what I hear, even from USMCProbe. Companies asking for 500PIC on type that later accept people with less do it for a reason, and that doesn't mean that these guys are fake. They will go through all the checks.

Many people (me incl) are considering an Asian jump and yes the only attraction is money. Is USMCP there for some other reason?
And furthermore, yes its even more attractive to the recently upgraded Cpt, or the low jet time F/O. But if you were like them where would you be looking at? DEC for BA?

Stop digging holes that are too big for everyone to avoid, or soon you will be experiencing "stazi" like attitude from the Chinese, where everyone is guilty until proven otherwise. Not pleasant.

I don't know if some members need to "get a life" but they definitely need to have some respect for themselves and their fellow pilots.

Maybe the moderator can address the issue with the namedropping too.

the grove

8th Feb 2012, 13:44

Couldn't disagree more. The people "harming the expat community" are not those who expose the fakes. It is the fakes that harm us all, and they deserve to be exposed!

I went back through Urge's previous posts and this guy is a chronic liar and an obvious fraud. Should we tolerate such low life fakers among our ranks, knowing the damage that they can do to the expat pilot community at large? Of course not.

Save the crocodile tears for this con man. The sooner he is on his way to a new career, the better.

captjns

8th Feb 2012, 14:03

Posts like these may be avoided if the contracting agencies would perform their due diligence in conducting professional and credential background checks before moving to the interview phase.

Alas... they are part of the problem too.

USMCProbe

8th Feb 2012, 16:16

Fake pilots put everyone at risk, especially those who they are paid to carry safely to their destinations.

Fake pilots dilute the trust that the public has in us.

Fake pilots dilute the value of our decades of dedication and experience.

A couple guys here defending fake pilots? Really? I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who spent 15-25 years getting to the top of his profession, being sympathetic to someone who took shortcuts, and faked his way to the top. You guys really want to defend this?

I can only think of one reason anyone would defend them, but I won't make that accusation. I am sure everyone else is thinking the same as me.

USMCProbe

8th Feb 2012, 17:40

Worldrover;
I just clicked on your profile. "see other posts by Worldrover". If you are not URGE. You are mini-URGE. Hopefully you are actually an actual 320 skipper, unlike URGE who is an extremely junior UAL 320 right seater. And you have defended fake pilots more than once on PPRUNE. You don't value your Captain experience? You think it is OK for a 1000 hr 320 right seater to fly a 330 left seat?
I anxiously await your comments. Hopefully you will "out "yourself as URGE has.

Speed and Angels on the left.
USMCPROBE

worldrover

8th Feb 2012, 18:58

My dear USMCP, I expected nothing less from someone like you.

I will not leave you anxiously awaiting my comments.

"Speed and Angels on the left" !!! Who are you? the Pilot Messiah? You need to change your medication...

Every single member of this forum that will confront you will be characterized as "fake" or something equally negative.
Your same old story of checking older posts and interpreting them the way you prefer. Feel free to do so. Most people have sound judgement, not everyone though so you might get some supporters.
Everyone is entitled to his opinion, even people that are mentally limited like you prove to be.

My conclusions (deduced reckoning-your way) are that you failed to be properly employed in the US (with this attitude you must have failed every single aptitude test in the book, conspiracies around you and people after you!!!) so you ended up taking the last open seat left in China. You probably have no wife and no life like a member suggested, and you perfectly fit the profile of the deeply complexed scrutineering officer of the former Communist Republics as we see them in the movies. No pussy, no fun, so why don't we make everyone else miserable.
Should we add the conclusions pertinent to your alias name, USMC related, you probably tried hard but failed to join them, so another big personal failure and wound that has not healed.

All your comments are negative, and your bigoted attitude brings out your hidden real personality.

I have never defended any fake pilots. Nobody I've ever met was fake. I do defend people from guys like you though, that very easily make accusations.
Its better to free 10 that are guilty that to convict one that is innocent my friend. I am sure you haven't learned that in elementary school. You don't sound like you have a deeper background, culture or manners anyway.

I do value my Captain experience, more than you should though. Some people see the upgrade as a normal step forward, while some like you, see it as the ascend to the throne. No looking back, now its time to F@#@ everyone back and so on. Who knows what you went through you poor child.
You were fortunate (lucky clearly) enough to get a chance on the LHS and now noone is more worthy that you, or at least anyone not agreeing with you. I can tell you one thing, you wouldn't stand a chance in the first world. I've seen people like you almost crying, knocked down from their high horse after coming back from an EK interview (they never even make the first test at EU majors let alone interview) and I am sure the US wouldn't have been easier on you either.

Why don't you tell us a bit more about yourself? Prove who you are?
Come out of the closet maybe.... I wouldn't be surprised with anything!
Do you dare being sincere and tell everyone if I am right?

Anyway, like I elaborately explained in my last post, I do not think people with 1000TT fly A330 LHS not even in Africa. This is an urban myth, for people like you to have an excuse to pollute the forum. If they do, give us one example (not a story), and in any case, I imagine this would happen to an airline that has absolutely NO aviation background or will to learn from professionals that can be employed by them.
Maybe you need a stamp and certificate to tell an experienced pilot, but I can smell it from the way he moves in the crew room.

Obviously you are not experienced enough my boy. The fact you have been in China earlier that other people does not make you en expert in aviation. The same way a taxi driver with 2 million miles under his belt cannot drive one lap in a racing car without crashing. Of course it feels good to jump into every single chance and posting your opinion, showing off to fellow pilots that the closest they've been to China is a visit to the local Wagamama (Chinese restaurant chain in Europe, you wouldn't know, nothing wrong with being a Hillbilly)
But the bottom end is that people with enough experience will identify in you the problematic F/O that shouldn't have been promoted.

You are an embarrassment to our profession

I hope such a long reply was enough to "out" myself.

Fell free to write back your venomus comments, will be entertaining

the grove

8th Feb 2012, 19:39

After Worldrover's idiotic rant, the question must be asked again. Why would any pilot who has given years of honest effort to his profession be defending an obvious fraud?

Mmmmm.

captjns

8th Feb 2012, 23:27

I don't think one would defend a fraud. However the system of checks and balances should take care of outing the frauds without public humiliation or flogging.

USMCProbe

9th Feb 2012, 02:19

I would normally want the moderator to step in and delete the whole thread for being more useless chaff on this forum. This one, however, is different.

I do hope the moderator steps in, but only to change the name of the thread, to "Fake Pilots, and Those defending Fake Pilots. Maybe a whole new category on PPRUNE?

Unfortunately, I have met fake pilots. I would love to have a new PPRUNE category, dedicated to outing the scumbags. I would personally list the types of backgrounds to look out for. Thanks URGE, I now have another profile to look for.

Flying Daggers

9th Feb 2012, 02:59

Don't forget to weed out all the scabs and tax evaders and illegal workforce, all those countless Ozzie, Yanks and Canucks evading taxes back home. Hopefully the next round of this conflict will expose all this scam to the authorities.

DauphinDude

9th Feb 2012, 04:16

worldrover: What I meant earlier is that people are getting intimidated by people who will act as police and judge and post it on an open forum.

Fake pilots should off course be exposed, but one are innocent until proven guilty. And posts done on pprune are hardly proof that would hold up in court.

USMCProbe

9th Feb 2012, 07:04

Yes I agree. This is a Rumor network after all. Nothing legal. BUT.

The burden of proof is on the pilot to prove what he is, to prove his background, his experience, and his qualifications. All pilot jobs require this, some more than others. China is definitely in the way more than others category.

18 months ago, when they got to the stage of applying for our airport ID's here, we went through about two weeks of phone calls from the company, because the CAAC was calling them. We had to clarify and back up things on our college transcripts even. URGE's Doctorate in Physics from MIT, and Rhodes Scholar Certificates might not hold up. They are going to call MIT.

As for our flying backgrounds, they demanded original documents from the airlines, No criminal record letters, embassy authenticated, from my home country and the last one that I worked. I had to have an original latter from Vietnamese CAAV saying that I had no accidents. This is in addition to the normal FAA Verification of Certificate Privledges, and No Accident letter from the FAA. The office that issues these is called, personally, by someone at the CAAC.

400 hours on a Korean license, and a Transport Canada license, with no Canadian flying experience, will not cut it here, as that will not satisfy their requirements. The FAA has a file for all license holders, all the way back to when we got our first license. For me that was 1980 with a private license continuing all the way to 3 years ago when I left the US. It is on the copy of my file, that I have in my possession.

There are more Americans working here than any other nationality by far. This might be the only place in the contract world like that. Lots of Canadians as well. The CAAC has a great deal of experience doing background checks on us. They know what we "look like" on paper.

I have seen several pilots not pass the airport ID phase, and we are a very small airline.

DauphinDude

9th Feb 2012, 07:34

Thank you for that last response. I knew there was something I haven´t thought of. No Accidents Letter, Verification of Licence and No Criminal Background from the embassy have not been mentioned by the company I´m going to work for :-)

camel

9th Feb 2012, 08:22

Worldrover...

fyi the Wagamama chain is actually based on a Japanese ramen house (NOT Chinese )..so your bit of mud slinging at poor old USMCP accusing him of being some kind of Hillbilly doesnt really hit the spot...or maybe its actually you who cant tell the difference between sashimi and chop suey?..hmmm :ugh:

Cheers

NoodleAir

9th Feb 2012, 09:21

Camel, just for your information like you said, Ramen is Chinese:cool: food and term, believe me.

And Wagamama was marketed as a pan Asian (Chinese mainly) food in the UK.
Alan (the founder) happens to be an acquaintance since my HK times.

Not something to discuss in a pilot forum, but just making a point for the fellow Englishman that you responded to, he sounds careful with his statements, and right on if I may add.

You should try it first before commenting:ugh: I don't think they have any WM branches in Africa though....

camel

9th Feb 2012, 10:00

Hi NoodleAir.

I believe they have chinese noodle shops in china ..and they also have japanese style ramen shops in china ...different for sure .

the last time i was in soho, wagamama had a distinctly japanese style menu with japanese dishes ...however i do agree that their food is not authentic japanese or even chinese ...

However i would stick to my conviction that wagamama is NOT a chinese restaurant ..if you want that just go a bit deeper into Soho then you have indeed the real thing ..although mainly Hk style.

And yep not a lot of it in africa so i have to pop over to Osaka or Shanghai for my fix.:ok:

USMCProbe

9th Feb 2012, 10:30

BTW I won't discuss anything about noodle shops, but I do consider it an upgrade to the posts on this thread.

NoodleAir

9th Feb 2012, 12:11

I am glad I raised the level then.

Now you can tell the rest of us, how, after all this screening expat pilots have to go through (according to your experience), they manage to fly the big iron with 300 hrs of true experience.
It is puzzling to me, and I have to follow after the member that spanked you, that neither have I met any fakes in flesh and blood during my career. They do exist like the bogeymen for pilots to tell stories.
Do tell us where and what kind (level etc) were the fake (many) that you have met. If you cannot, just call it a foul move and move on.

I also did not know that Chinese airlines ask for degrees to employ pilots(?), as for background checks all the way to college I wouldn't even comment:}
Most experienced pilots don't even have paperwork that old.
I do know that the Chinese people do their best to man their increasing number of aircraft while ensuring a certain level of safety and that expats are answering to the call because of the low min requirements.
The "fake" expat stories are more applicable to US regionals than in China-Korea and the rest. Nationals maybe but not expats

Flying Daggers you forgot to mention the ones that cheat on their wives and girlfriends, and the ones that do not recycle, we should report all these too.

USMCProbe

9th Feb 2012, 16:29

Sorry Noodleair, you didn't read my post correctly. I didn't say you raised the bar, I said talking about noodle shops did. You, like Worldrover, are defending an obvious fraud, and fake pilot. The only human being, on gods $%#@ing green earth, that would ever defend a fake airline pilot, is another fake airline pilot.
This is my last response to you, as you don't rate a response.

captjns

9th Feb 2012, 16:51

OK he said, she said.. his is, he is not. Noodle shops??? OK I can live with them. But all's I'm looking for is information about Hainan... the NG Fleet specifically. Worth going to the interview?

NoodleAir

9th Feb 2012, 20:11

Either you cannot read or you cannot comprehend my written english. Lets try again.

I am not defending anyone (use a quote if you can) I am just questioning your case that is full of...holes at least
Right you are, no one would defend a fake unless he is one too, but I have not read one defending post yet in this thread.
Its just your insisting constant reference to the hords of expat fakes and their defendants that got me thinking that the first to call out "Fake, get him" in a crowd is probably trying to create a diversion.

You managed to captivate us all with your allegations of having first hand experience of the Yeti, Sasquatch, and many fake expat pilots trying to get our jobs :eek:
Then you gave conflicting information on how strict checks you personally experienced and even that with exaggerations just to make an impression.

Give us more details. I asked you specific questions and never got a hint of an answer. You can stay in your underground hole and choose not to answer of course

Meanwhile worthy members of this forums can help people with need for real information like Captjns without your background noise in full squelch yelling about the bogeyman

USMCProbe

10th Feb 2012, 02:08

Captjns;
I know a couple of 73 pilots and have talked to them quite a bit in dispatch and on the jumpseat. For the last year they said their schedules have been great. Lots of days off. But, that can change. Pay is really good, maybe the best in the contract world for a 73 driver. They seemed happy working there, especially because of the money.

Their complaints mirror those of the rest of us working in China. Overall it is as good a job as you will probably get in China.

flyingguyforjob

10th Feb 2012, 12:42

If you are going to come to China, think carefully. Spring Airlines dinged a guy 12K for an altitude bust. Seems the Chinese pilots dont get penalized nearly that amount.

USMCProbe

10th Feb 2012, 13:10

Hey URGE, Noodlair, and Worldrover;
I just heard some really good news. I guy I don't know very well, but flew with once, also from United Airlines, just upgraded to Captain in the contract world. He was a really good guy, similar background to me, but a rustpicker instead of a jarhead. He was hired a few classes after you, URGE. He is junior to you.

When he was furloughed from UAL, he also went to the contract world, as an FO. He did his job professionally, met his commitments, and was awarded a 320 Captain upgrade a few months ago.

He now has additional, real, and verifieable flying credentials, in addition to the ones he had before. He didn't have to launder his license through another country's aviation licensing authority, or claim he worked for a now defunct airline. He did everything with honesty and integrity.

And now, he is sleeping well in his bed, happy for his good fortune, a bit of good luck, and proud of his hard work and accomplishments. Hopefully he will have a long and safe flying career. I wish him well.

This contrasts starkly with the choices of another on this thread, and those defending his fraudulant actions.