787-900 to Jetstar?

[SHRAGS]

http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/qantas-and-jetstar-change-787-strategy-to-support-asian-growth-and-unit-cost-improvement-63613

What??

[Artificial Horizon]

Rumour on the street is that the 787-800 has exceedingly poor range / freight perfomance against what was promised and that it is substantially worse than the 330's that Jetstar is currently operating. So bad in fact that all the expansion plans will have to be reined in until the 787-900 is rolled out. Rumour has it that J* will be stuck with the 800's for around two years and will then swap them out for 900's as they arrive into the Qantas Group. Purely rumour, but it seems to make sense.

[neville_nobody]

Maybe this should be the new boarding music for the 787?

Lemon - U2 - YouTube

[Ichiban]

Given that the 50 787's are planned to be split evenly between Qantas and Jetstar, Jetstar were originally planned to operate 25 787-9; and Qantas were originally planned to operate 15 787-8 and 10 787-9.

The fleet plan has now changed.

Jetstar will now operate 15 787-8 and 10 787-9.

Qantas will now operate 25 787-9.

[...still single]

I believe that Jetstar will operate all 50 787's.

But some of them will be painted in Qantas colours.

[toolish]

Valuair will operate on behalf of Jetstar, they are cheaper:bored:

[Going Boeing]

Posted by ...still single

I believe that Jetstar will operate all 50 787's.

But some of them will be painted in Qantas colours.

That is the current plan - although they won't be operated by Jetstar Oz crew. The SIN based crews will be able to operate the European services at lower cost than OZ crews (not only due to lower salaries & lack of superannuation/payroll tax etc, but also less accommodation & allowance costs).

It's up to the current generation of QF Group pilots to keep fighting and secure the future for the next generation.

[illusion]

"It's up to the current generation of QF Group pilots to keep fighting and secure the future for the next generation".

The sooner that AIPA F##K off and stop interfering in Jetstar industrial relations, the better. Qantas pilots do not "own" any flying. The sooner they understand that many of the working conditions they currently enjoy are unsustainable the better they will be. The smart ones can interpret the writing on the wall and are moving to Jetstar or further afield to accelerate career progression.

It has been stated that it is unlikely that mainline will operate ANY B787 aircraft.

Get over it.

[MACH082]

Illusion, I think you are under a management one.

Last time I checked, the majority of Jetstar Pilots are AIPA members. Exactly what Qantas management did not want when they started Jetstar,

It was management who forced the Pilots hand for representation. If management decided to just act morally and decently, then this situation would not have unfolded and the majority of those naughty Pilots would have been compliant.

Take a hard look in the mirror.

[Jimothy]

Illusion

It has been stated that it is unlikely that mainline will operate ANY B787 aircraft.

Where has this been officially stated?

[Helmut Smokar]

Illusion
Given what's in play at the moment, I'd be more worried about JQ being sold off if I worked there. Given one of the reasons Joyce gives for not wanting pilots to be able to freely move between JQ and QF is, wait for it....... "If we sell JQ it would make things difficult" don't think for a second it's not on the table.
If, and a big if AIPA get some sort of group career progression going it will probably save your arse when the music stops. Enjoy the ride :hmm:

[Going Boeing]

It appears that "illusion" didn't read/comprehend the sentence that he quoted. The inference is that all Qantas Group pilots have to work together to secure our future but he chose to interpret it as "AIPA interfering in Jetstar industrial relations".

He also didn't get the rest of the post. Stambi has indicated that the B787 bases will be SIN & AKL - no QF Mainline or Jetstar Oz pilots will be involved in its operations.

[MACH082]

Stambi has indicated that the B787 bases will be SIN & AKL

Personally I believe someone should challenge the use of 'spirit of Australia' on the sides of such aircraft. JB?

I certainly don't believe this is in the spirit of Australia. It's 'spirit of the dollar' or 'spirit of KPIs' or 'spirit of corporate greed' or 'spirit of shareholders' (the top 4).

The slogan should be 'What a joke', but then when most Australians see that annoying little fella with his freaky little hands on the idiot box, they think it anyway. I'd be scared to shake one. It would be cold and clammy.....:cool:

[dragon man]

With a flying pig on the tail with its snout firmly in a trough!!!

[my oleo is extended]

I can't wait to see the damage that the ramp goons are going to inflict on the beautiful composite flying piece of modern technology!
$100 says that on week 1 of operation a piece of GSE punctures a fuselage or a cargo door is damaged?

[Cunning_Stunt]

Mach082, I said right after Joyce announced the company's plans in August that i reckoned within a year any aircraft that goes in for a paint will emerge with "The New Spirit" painted on its side in place of " Spirit of Australia". Job done.

[waren9]

Jetstar won't sell. Who in their right mind would buy it?

I doubt the domestic operation would barely be profitable if it suddenly had to stand on its own two feet and pay for everything it uses, let alone the franchises everywhere else.

[Bula]

As always, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[Rabbitwear]

Sq will buy Jq , turn the sin base into scoot. And rebuild tiger with Jq on an even lower cost base , if you dont like it you can always leave.

[waren9]

Bula

I personally do not think Jetstar, particularly the offshore franchises, is/are as profitable as the friday flyers would have everyone believe.

If you disagree with that mate, fair enough, then we'll leave it at that.

[CrystalBall]

It is my belief that Jetstar will not get the initial 787's, they will go to mainline to replace the 767's.

Several reasons.

1. Excessive training cost
Training Jetstar Pilots/Engineering/Cabin/ground staff of every sort from Airbus to Boeing - months of training.
returning A330's to mainline to replace 767 pilots - months of training as opposed to around 2 weeks training from 767/738.

2. Hand in hand with above, A330's taken offline for months to "clean up" and refresh to return from JetStar not to mention paint at cost of? millions? (including cost of downtime)

3. Return on investment/capital.
The costs of just the 2 points obove would take several years to break even with the "not so huge" savings from the 787 over the current A330's.
"The B787 has a 10% operating cost reduction compared to the B767, and a smaller reduction compared to the A330." - Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation

Undisputed the biggest profitability of the entire QANTAS group is mainline domestic operations, currently serviced by 734's/738's/767's/A330's and the occasional 744. I am not sure on exact number, but something like 30% of domestic operations served by 767's that are a good work horse but old.

4. Virgin going full service
QANTAS holds a VERY hard 65% "line in the sand" for its domestic market, and gives it's low yield/unprofitable routes to Jetstar. Virgin is making large inroads into the high yield business and premium travel market, and they must stop it. QANTAS management has always been reactive in so far as not doing something unless forced, and the motto is generally "if they put on 2 aicraft, we put on 3". For example Virgin has it's 330's going to Perth, so they put on a 744 at a huge fuel penalty to "trump" the competition. They have several A330's available to equal them but instead they use the 744. (40Tonnes burn for 400pax over 25Tonnes for 350?)-again I don't know exact figures but that's close I believe?
The 787 is the perfect "trump card" for passenger retention and attracting new customers as the worlds most premium aircraft, the premium market will have no problem paying for this (just as the fares on A380 are more expensive than the 744 and yet are always booked over capacity). Add to this a 15-19% fuel saving over the 767 and you truly do have a "Dreamliner" that carries 260pax and burns 20Tonnes on that same service.

By end of 2013, most if not all mainline 734's are retired, 787's arriving replacing 767's suddenly the mailine domestic fleet is very very attractive and new. 738's/787's and occasional A330's for additional capacity. - A far cry from current fleet (old 734's and 767's and 744's)

From a press article- Qantas International’s future growth depends on the B787, but Mr Joyce this month was reserved about the international division’s downfall due to B787 delays. “I don’t think the fleet on its own will be the silver bullet to turn Qantas International around,” he said. “It certainly would have made a difference in the high fuel environment because what would have happened if B787s were in the fleet today is we would have retired the B767s, particularly the Rolls-Royce (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/suppliers/rolls-royce) B767 fleet.” - Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation

5. QANTAS's FWA (Fair Work Australia) submission details 787 along side of 767, with the same payscale and catergory (below current 744/330 rates). I believe that a new "streamlined/productive" award will be introduced to cover the 787 both in domestic and International ops, in 10 years time you have A380's/787-9's/787-8's/738's - with only 16 A380's on the old "long haul award" and the rest on much more efficient flexible arrangements. Even if it on the "long haul award" at 767 rates it is still a huge saving over current rates on 744/330. Maybe 15% in crewing costs and MASSIVE savings on fuel.

I do believe that Jetstar (and all airlines) will have to end up with super efficient aircraft to stay competitive, but currently are facing competition that have the same equipment as current in the immediate future, and the 787 will do little to attract customers to what is an absolutely price driven market. The fuel savings alone will not accomplish enough to warrant the $180M price tag.

Several indicators are pointing to this scenerio, although not "conclusive".

The planned A330 to replace the 767's doesn't work. The A330 cannot do the 45minute turn arounds due to hot brakes,unloading and loading/cleaning for a start. They cannot park them on "the alley" in Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane as the LENGTH is too much, it's not a wingspan issue. (the 787-8 is almost identical length to the 767-300) The wingspan is same as A330, but extending the Aerobridges and "sliding" bays is easy. Apart from that, having A330's operating under the long haul award on domestic is very limiting and that's the last thing they want.

Several QANTAS mainline management pilots from 737 and even A330 along with company executives have flown the actual 787 between Sydney and Melbourne, and even back to Seattle. If "the plan" is to not get them in mainline until 2016, whats the rush?

The "Investor Strategy Day"
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20111212/pdf/4236jzlv0gx8wc.pdf
in December made several comparrisons in unit cost and fuel consumption between the 787 and the 763 - which is not supposed to be in "the plan"

It has been stated several times that the QANTAS mainline domestic configuration is the same as the Jetstar International configuration. Then why then does QANTAS configuration (260'odd in 2 class) differ from Jetstar's quoted 335 pax for the 787-8. (I believe ANA's is 252 or something) Recently Jetstar have been quoting "about 300" in the press. Remember its the same length as the 767-300 which carries 250 or so.

There are many other small things that point to this outcome, but many will say they are irrelevant so I will not throw them out there. I will leave it to yourselves to draw your own picture.

[Terrey]

Crystalball,

All that makes perfect sense. It is what any rational manager would do. Hence QF will do the opposite! Egos out of control. Can't admit they made a mistake.

[outside limits]

Qantas may get them, but Jetstar will operate them !! Guaranteed.

[swh]

(I believe ANA's is 252 or something)

No, ANA 787-8 configuration is 158 seats, 46J/112Y.

[OneDotLow]

Thats true for the long haul variant. But the short haul 787-8 has 12/252. See here (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3A7d529be4-84e9-4347-b8cc-327619045fdf) for details.

[swh]

Thats true for the long haul variant. But the short haul 787-8 has 12/252. See here for details.

All of ANAs 787 currently are 158 seats, they do not have a "domestic" configuration in service. They also stated at one stage said 300 seats on their website.

Configuration/Seatmap | ANA (http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/asw_common/inflight/seatmap/)
Boeing 787-8 | ANA (http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/asw_common/inflight/seatmap/b787_8/)

[Starbuck69]

Off topic I know but in the interests of keeping the info posted here factual....SWH, OneDotLow is correct. Here at ANA, there are 4 domestic config 787-8s now in service based here in Haneda, with a seating config of 264 seats, 12 big ones up the front, the rest (252) in the economy cabin. Only 1 international configured aircraft (JA805A) is in service with 46C/112Y, making 158 seats in total and is operating the new HND-FRA service at present.

[Best Rate]

I like the reference to Take-Off & Landing "slide" distance in the above 787 ANA seat profile / specs link... :cool:

[pull-up-terrain]

Qantas may get them, but Jetstar will operate them !! Guaranteed.

This is a rumour i heard (not from pprune) that not even jetstar employees's will operate the 787. Its going to be operated by some external company, similar to Qf's F100 and 717 operations and Virgin Australia ATR 72 operations.

[TAC inop.]

Cool...any more info on that?

[Sonny Hammond]

C'mon guys, its an easy one.

How many 777 type rated guys in the middle east? Oh, a couple of hundred or more.

Those are the boys that are going to be flying the plastic (un)fantastic for yet another qf group company...But only if they believe in that the grass is greener..

Personally i reckon the grass in QF group is browner than the sand in the me.

[Wedcue]

Rumour overheard the other day from a friend of a friend who walks dogs for the neighbour of the garbo for the TVL refueler...

A group of Qantas short haul pilots have approached Qantas and made an offer to have them operate the 787... Divide and conquer, from within..

[Transition Layer]

Let me guess...their start date with QF(TN) was approximately 22 and a bit years ago?

[Capt Kremin]

These rumours about A list pilots making offers to QF management to undercut their fellow pilots arise from time to time.

It may have happened, who really knows? All it shows is that they know nothing of the legal relationship between AIPA and QF.

[Sonny Hammond]

A legal relationship that has achieved nothing good for at least 20 years.

If the ex-TN boys sewed up a deal to fly the 787, good on em I say, they'll be the only ozzy based pilots to get to.

[Normasars]

Kinda like watching seagulls fight each other over a chip on the beach.

Anyway, there are many options outside of the poisoned chalice that is the "QF Group"