Reversing hands on controls?

[twistair]

G'day gang,

Had a discussion recently about possibility and problems while trying to drive helo using left hand for cyclic and right hand for collective. Some skilled guys told that this is commonly possible for most pilots after intensive special training while others state that this may lead to unexpected errors in critical condition for most flyers. They also told that some high grade CFIs use to demonstrate this from left seat using right seat collective (Tim Tucker for one).
I was also told that there may be some ready conclusions about human mentality which explain difficulties.
Amy inputs/links on the subject would be greatly appreciated.
I'm asking since I was asked to instruct in a side-by-side gyroplane which has only central throttle so left pilot needs to control it by his right hand which looks a bit weird for me.

Thanks in advance,

[Fareastdriver]

The Bristol Sycamore HR 14. In service as a trainer at Tern Hill when I did my helicopter conversion. The collective was fairly large, in the middle with a throttle that went outwards from the LHS like a motorcycle throttle.

The technique for the RHS pilot was to have his hand on top of the throttle grip that was on his side so that as he raised it the natural wrist movement would open the throttle. The LHS (instructor) would have his hand under the grip to do the same thing. The throttle cam did not work that well so you had to open the tap as the lever started but close it a bit as you reached to top to keep the Rrpm reasonably constant.

The cycle was fully manual with spring Q feel adjusted by rotary trimwheels much like a fixed wing. The controls were quite heavy and one learned to anticipate the trim required during various stages of flight, ie coming to the hover. Otherwise one was fighting for control with a collective waiting for you to take you hand off to adjust the trim before it jumped to full up or down.

All the instructors had about an hour solo to get used to the LHS after type conversion and some preferred to fly it that way when solo. The handling demonstrator at Tern Hill used to strap some poor airman into the RHS and then terrify everybody with wingovers and REAL torque turns.

I was given a go by my instructor and it did not take long to adjust the |mindset to the LHS. Subsequently during my offshore days on the AS 332L if I was flying in the LHS giving P1 u/s I would take out the HYD AP and found that flying cross control was very similar to a large Sycamore; even the shuffle just before touchdown.

However: Could I guarantee to be fully in control should some major emergency crop up requiring a few flashing hands? No, I don't think so.

[[email protected]]

There was, and probably still is, a demonstration of this during the QHI course at RAF Shawbury. It was shown to all QHI students because someone had managed to crash a Gazelle whilst debriefing a student and flying cross controlled from the LHS.

Most people can hack it for a while, especially if control is handed over in a reasonably trimmed hover. However, once errors start to appear, the almost inevitable result is trying to hit the ground descending and moving backwards.

The natural reaction for a pilot is to try and get away from the ground by pulling up with the left hand to increase collective - this hand though is on the cyclic so it starts a rearward drift - then to counter the drift, the pilot tries to input forward cyclic with the right hand - this hand is on the collective which now goes down.

With practise, it is eminently possible to fly 'wrong-handed' - after all you could teach pilots that way from the start and it would be 'normal'.

[Fareastdriver]

side-by-side gyroplane which has only central throttle

I may be wrong but as I understand it a gyro plane does not have a collective in the normal sense. Therefore as the control is by cyclic and throttle then it is no different from the host of multi-engined fixed wing aircraft that have the captain in the LHS and the throttles in the middle. They seem to manage OK.

[twistair]

a gyro plane does not have a collective in the normal sense.

Yes, that's correct. Modern gyros have no collective less very few experimentals.
But in a gyro throttle and stick are used - especially on take-off and more or less on landing more sensitive than in a fixed wing. Gyro is a pendulum under rotor which has no big dampener (like fixed wing which makes fuselage more stable from oscillations). Thus acting stick and throttle in a gyro is - in some sense - closer to helo in sensitivity of movements on take-off, landing and during active maneuvering. This is why I asked here. Finally we both fly rotary :)

[Flying Bull]

Hi twistair,

done it a couple of times in my Bo105-time when beeing Co-Pilot with the old salts.
First it was a weird feeling, but if you relax, you can get the feel for it fairly quick - well, I could ;-)
Same as with clockwise / counterclockwise helicopters - as soon as you start to think, you spoil it - if you do it smoothly and feel the bird - you hack it :-)
Or flying hands off a well trimed bird, just by moving your body ;-)

Greetings Flying Bull

[ShyTorque]

I have a personal anecdote about this.

I inadvertently experienced a near accident after taking control from a student in the hover at SY (Gazelle, 1984), even though I was used to flying from the left seat.

Bloggs was in the low level nav phase and had a number of maps to deal with. Approaching the departure point (south point, I'll never forget) he realised he had all his maps in the wrong order. He asked me to take control in the hover, which I did. The collective friction was on far too hard. As those familiar with the Gazelle will know, the friction is a tubular control on the right hand collective, so I changed hands to adjust it.

As I unwound the friction, the collective dropped down an inch or so and the Gazelle descended. As I tried to arrest the descent, the world suddenly went a little pear shaped. Why?

Brain says: "We're descending" and sends the usual message to the left hand, i.e.: "Raise the collective".

Unfortunately the left hand was on the cyclic and responded by moving the collective rearwards.

Gazelle now moves backwards (still descending, too).

Brain responds by sending usual message to right hand, i.e. "Move the cyclic forwards". Unfortunately the right hand is still on the collective but still responds by lowering it.

Descent rate rapidly increases!

Brain says: "We're descending" and sends usual message to left hand "raise collective!"

It's easy in retrospect to see where this is going.....

For a few microseconds it felt that the flying controls had completely failed! Thankfully my personal survival gyro suddenly re-erected and I took control from myself. I sorted it out by pulling up hard on the right hand collective with my right hand. We shot backwards and upwards over the fence to the east of the departure point, which caused comments from both my student and from ATC. I went forward and down back to the hover and gave my student control. He was able to make a better job of the hover than myself so I allowed him to continue. :O

After the sortie I went to see the acting Sqn Cdr (a fellow QHI, slightly more senior than I) and tried to explain what had just happened. The point of my "fronting up" to him was so that the word could be spread around, to help prevent anyone else getting caught out by this "gotcha", which had never been pointed out to me (certainly wasn't done on the CFS course back then).

All he could do was to chastise me. I came out of his office feeling like an idiot. In retrospect I should have put in an incident report.

Three weeks later, this same acting Sqn Cdr went out on a solo GH sortie from the left hand seat (which incidentally was against regulations....).

At Chetwynd he changed hands to adjust the collective friction in the hover. He hit the ground hard, downwards and backwards and franged the tail!

You can imagine, I was really sympathetic about this and didn't go straight up to him and say "TOLD YOU SO!" ......... :E

After that accident, which apparently came as a total surprise to him, :rolleyes:, all QHIs under training were taken to the high hover and made to swap hands on the controls. Many that I spoke to afterwards said that they would not have coped with a recovery from the almost inevitable ensuing descent, the first time they experienced this situation.

I put my own recovery from my incident down to being strongly ambidextrous, with the reactions of a startled ferret in those days. (I'm still ambidextrous....but as for the reactions...... Well, I did say it was back in 1984). ;)

[puntosaurus]

Mike Bill used to do this on the FI course. When you were beginning to get a bit cocky and think you'd got it cracked he'd ask " Do you want to remember what it was like before you learned to hover ?". Of course you'd say yes, and he'd take over in the hover whilst you swapped hands. Very good at bringing you back down to earth ! Literally.

[ShyTorque]

I think it's actually worse than when you're first learning to fly. Pre-conceived ideas about how the controls work have to be unlearned very quickly.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Shy,

I finished my Beefer's course in Feb 84 and it was certainly taught then - poss as a result of your Flt Cdr's escapade?

Thud (still with the reactions (and possibly demeanour) of a stunned slug)

[jimjim1]

One day in my teens I decided to cross my hands over on the handlebars. No idea why, just seemed a good idea at the time.

It was about half a second before the cranium-tarmacadam interface occurred.

[Vertical Freedom]

Easy, peasy, whilst transiting I fly everywhere with the left hand. Its easier to take notes, check map, blah blah blah. You gotta do it flying a 500. :eek:

When I was instructing many moons ago I always taught students to practice flying with the left hand. It taught them easier cockpit management & gave their often tense R arm a rest :8

How hard is it???? :zzz: Just fly the picture & don't think to hard, You might overload the odd brain cell :p

Do everything into wind...............except piss :ok:

Vertical Freedom

[Fareastdriver]

Before my vertical flight career I found that I could sit in either seat with a handful of throttles in the middle and it didn't seem to make a lot of difference; even in-flight refuelling

[ShyTorque]

Yes, I agree that flying "wrong handed" is easy peasy in the cruise, especially in a fixed wing, more so if you trim the aircraft (I instructed on a centre throttled aircraft for about 1,000 hours and 3,000 or so in rotary). But hovering is a slightly different ball game when you try it the first time.

The trap still exists for those who haven't yet tried it. :E

[Cylinder Head]

Like so many things helicoptery, it is possible but think about why you are doing it! If it is making a point to an FI student, then it has value but flying left handed from the right seat as a matter of course is not a good idea. Better hope you don't have an engine failure when your left hand is on the cylic and you are writing stuff down with no collective to your right.

Throttle is the biggest problem as reactions in unexpected situations can be incorrect; for example:

An FI student on the course before me went out to start up from the left seat before the FI instructor joined him. Being slightly unfamiliar, he decided to use the collective on his right rather than the one on the left, left hand was on cylic. He checked throttle (in his right hand) was wound towards him as he normally did when using his left hand, unfortunately right handed meant that it was fully open. What a surprise, there was a MASSIVE overspeed and he could not "close" the throttle as it was already fully closed in his mind. Very costly and completely unnecessary.

Like may things you read on PPRUNE, ask yourself the question "How would I justify doing this" when standing up in court following a prang. If you can't make a reasonable case to yourself, its unlikely that you could convince a jury.

[Fareastdriver]

Going back to the original discussion. There are years of experience flying cack handed with the Sycamore being used for instructional purposes. They were used to it even though for many their previous helicopter flying had been conventional. Like all things, the first time you try anything you will not be any good at it. Left hand cyclic flying is the same; if things go wrong, one cannot cope.
With regard to Vertical Freedom. I personally do not think he is in error. I was never so pessimistic about my engine that I would hang on the collective continuously. It reminds me of that old cartoon about the haggard helicopter pilot.

[Shackman]

Unfortunately I was that man - the QHI what bent a Gazelle when debriefing a student as described by Crab. Not only that, but it all happened almost exactly the same way as Shy Torque described - the only difference being I was in a confined area, and transition was not a good idea.

Yes I had done the 'wrong hands' flying on CFS(H) - hover, circuit and landing - and had not found it too onerous within the confines of an airfield. Unfortunately when it went wrong it was the 'natural reactions' that took over instantaneously and made things infinitely worse in both pitch and roll; even tho' my own gyro quickly realised what was wrong all I was left able to do was lower the lever as the skids went level (power up potentially into the trees was not an option) and we hit the ground hard!

One of those wonderful 'I learnt about flying from that' moments. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I don't think I ever did it again in the hover, but at the time it did not seem 'wrong'. I might add this was in 1990, but is now used as the reason for the 'wrong hands' demo; when I did the course, in 1986, it was because of the frange at Chetwynd.

One other learning point; if there is a nearby farm send your student to make the phone call (days before mobile phones) - that way he gets bitten by the farm dog!

[101BOY]

And I was that student - still remember the dog pounding towards me with its lead trailing behind - I seem to recalling a look like this :eek: Not a great day overall!!

[311kph]

Unfortunately I was that manAnd I was that student
Waiting for the dog to register on PPRUNE and say:
- And I was that dog !!!



:D:D:D

[RINKER]

I can pretty much agree with what's said here. Sometimes on a long flight in R22 ( don't laugh ) I would use left hand on cyclic for a minute or so in the cruise when my arm got sore holding the cyclic after a couple of hours. That's the most I've tried it solo.
But a few years ago I was having a lesson in the left hand seat of an R44 Raven with the instructor on the right and he asked me if I would like to try swapping hands on controls. So carefully ( with him on the controls I might add)
I swapped hands , so left hand on cyclic and right hand on collective in the middle of aircraft I had a shot so to speak.
The result basically as Shy had said, You have control was my quick response, reminded me of what it was like learning to hover all over again.
Would I try it on my own . No Chance.

R

[TheDog]

Waiting for the dog to register on PPRUNE and say:
- And I was that dog !!!

Woof, woof woof, howllllllll.

[oldbeefer]

Shackman - I believe there are still quite a few QHIs who make the comment on finals to Follies "guess what happened here". Not many studes believe them when told!

P.S. Isn't it about time you hung up your helmet?

[teejat]

Must say that when myself and Gordon Mitchell were learning right handed flying in a Sycamore Our qualifying flight was to do a full stop flare in front of the wing commanders office . I still have a left handed brain,