LION AIR(Merged 2011 - 12) [Archive]

jetjockey696

6th Dec 2011, 09:21

Ok... guys. Eaglejet candidates... after 500hrs, which is 5mths and no more than 6mth of flying after line training. since you be flying minimum of 100hrs of month. after which Lionair will offer you a contract which is similar to local employee get.. 21million rupiah basic and 105000 rupiah per hr.. BUT reaching above 85hrs there is an increase of pay via percentage. (APPROX..EX.. 105% of your flt pay per hr. between 85-100hrs then 110% of between 110-115hrs and so on...) Tax free.. and that is it. other things they offer is medical, 12days off a year..

THey do offer eaglejet pilots further employment on 1yr contracts if they wish. the ones who do not being offer further employment have issues with the company, maybe with scheduling etc. BUT trust me they squeeze everything out of you, they leave you as dry as a prune, you have no social life, for the duration of your stay.. you work 5/6/7days and 1 day off. I know you saying "I am here to fly not too play"...thats BU@L. That saying normally wears out after a month.. or earlier.

when you come here leave all that western superior attitude behind. I have seen a few of 1/2 stripe expat drama queens in the office and flight ops, screaming and waving there hands about, it makes me smile before a 4 day trip..even the grumpy capts has a grin seeing this drama. Pilots forget that the management base your extension of contract/upgrades to the feedback of the captain's that you have flown with and if you have a bad attitude to work..unsafe flt ops the company will not extend...OOPS.. before hords accusations.. I have seen and touched the contracts offer to eaglejet pilots.. :ok:

But the contract a few months ago was better for the expat extending there contracts.. USD pay. 6000usd per month.. 10 weeks on 2 weeks off for all eaglejet, CAE, now since there is no competition for pilots by indonesian airlines, this offer has been scrapped:uhoh: I guess there no going back to this plan since there is not going to be a shortage of first officers..:rolleyes:

HONESTLY guys lion is always short on flightcrew, they will offer you a contract after the 500hrs.. . Otherwise expat pilot would not complain about the excess flight hours they fly. and the locals are going to Garuda airlines with T &C and life...

Good luck... btw I am not Kush. or Stephane

just angry and over worked....

aviator_88

6th Dec 2011, 16:49

At least one normal guy providing useful information...thank you.

BTW.how much do you make a month?? (USD)

And, can you take housing allowance instead of living in shared apartment??

jetjockey696

6th Dec 2011, 17:57

ok... take home is depending how much you work between 4-5500usd. because the pay structure. you keep 100% no tax..

As Eaglejet you get NO housing allowance until you sign the contract after 500hrs. After which you get 2.5million... which is 275usd for housing. Eaglejet guys find there own housing shared or single. Only CAE has free shared company housing, but most move out to be closer to the airport called BSD..Tangerang... check it out. when you join just ask the many expats for advice where you stay, but when you come here dont expect much... leave the 1st world behind.

Housing here is depending where you live.. in city center of jkt... a expat place can cost you.. 800-2800usd per month, btw these place the housing is provided by the rich companies to there expat managers, consultance etc..
Most pilots live near the airport for about 300-400usd per month.. dont forget the bills. and you need to pay 12mth rent in advance.. so make sure your got the $$$... first. and CAUTION... if you white..(expat) expect to pay the expat value added tax...or the bule tax. So negotiate everything until you are happy to give away a years rent... NON REFUNDABLE... and no you cant take the landlord to court etc.. dont exist. Trust me here... the mob justice first, then police justice.

I am not a TOTAL lover of p2F.. but you have to wake up, the world has changed. There many people, things to blame.. i guess that human nature.. Airlines are going bankrupt over night..as we speak. Good example AMR and thomson etc.. the good days and the hiring low hours are PRACTICAL no more. Now it the fitness airlines wins. You can wait for the industry to pick up so to chose thousands of low hours pilots.but WHEN??

I learn in aviation you have to be lucky and to be in the right place at the right time... Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.. so be prepared with jet hours. My friend (Eaglejet) my training partner..he competed his 2 yrs with lion, now flies B777 with qatar. a few more expats gone to hong kong airlines and a few went home to europe and found jobs.
and that no BU@L. i promise you... I wish i can join him.

though who couldnt find jobs after there time with lion, probably left with 500hrs or a bit more... thats not going to cut it. just look at job sites. you need a target... get as much hours as you can physically and mentally can fly. But make you sure when you leave lion you have more than 1000hrs jet... especially if your TOTAL TIME is low:ugh:. Common sense... :ok:

(OK I expect hords to gonna say.... you dont hve common sense if you have p2f..:p) guys life short... pilots always look after no1..... dog eat dog world.. reality.... so who gives a F........... :ok:

BeCareful

6th Dec 2011, 18:08

I do have a silly question.

Why do you guys do this P2F scheme? Do you really expect to be called a professional? I mean, really... you're supposed to be paid to be an FO, not be the highest-fare-paying passenger onboard.

I guess FO's paying to be a required crew member (:confused:) is another way to increase revenue to an airline... kudos to these airlines for exploiting the stupid...

aviator_88

6th Dec 2011, 19:10

well maybe we wanna join this stupid disgraceful scheme cause we get a JOB afterwards...and just imagine how :mad: up this world is when there are hundreds of us applying to it...

jetjockey696 I appreciate the info you shared with us...:ok::ok:

and now...let the show begin...again (hords, your turn) :rolleyes:

dood

6th Dec 2011, 20:10

Very useful information jetjockey696. As I've posted before the whole flight training scenario these days are geared towards pay2fly. Oxford & CTC with their prohibitively expensive Integrated courses due to their connections with airlines after which you have to pay for your TR anyway. Or a modular route combined with a line training programme. The cost works out the same at roughly £100,000. And if you go modular and decide to try and wait it out instructing or doing another job, that's years of potential earnings as a pilot wasted.

It's a numbers game, an airline's market and either way you pay the same price. Sure you can argue the standard of flying differs but, experience makes up for it and any pilot could make a mistake at any time. That's why we become first officers to learn from our mistakes. The only reason I don't condone p2f is because it's biased towards the wealthier but not necessarily the less apt individual. In today's debt strapped money hungry world no one wants the risk of guaranteeing another individuals skills. Thus, very few airlines offer a bond these days of which most are very well established airlines or airlines from rich countries and a cadet pilot is forced to bear their own risk. The route for the self improver traditionally used to be through regionals and to the majors.

With the downsizing over the last few years regionals stopped hiring thus removing a method for most self improvers to progress in their careers. And recently with the introduction of MPL and already established Integrated schools signing on new training contracts with regionals and majors. The self improver that trained between 2008 to 2011 is all but entirely overlooked as a casualty of the recession, evident even by BA's hiring requirements. Thus, being good business people P2F firms like EagleJet found a way to make money by offering something that was required. They play a similar role to the Integrated schools in sourcing pilots and profit from them in almost the same way.

There is a way to fix it in UK and that is to follow a similar route to Germany that places no bias on where you train but rather on a fair and universal test. But airlines need to change their attitude towards cadets and the regulators/unions need to realize whats actually happening rather than brown nosing each other. Until then, stop showing an air of superiority and claiming you're more of a 'professional' pilot than someone else because it comes off as very unprofessional. There are bad eggs in all baskets and each person is a victim of their circumstances and choices. So, good luck to all pilots since we all share the same airspace.

captain.weird

6th Dec 2011, 20:45

Jetjockey,

Many thanks for your input! It is very great to read your story, this is a real story you know what I mean.. there are plenty of stories at PPRune about Lion Air and P2F schemes, but this it the real world like you say, well done mate. But really, do you make 5000usd as a FO? I thought it was something like 2000usd? That was for CAE guys, but you got in with EagleJet and then got the 1 year contract as well, good job.

What are your plans mate? Goint to Qatar as well?

tarmac12

6th Dec 2011, 22:34

Well I have ranted enough on here about P2f but a guy I was talking too has a pretty down to earth way of looking at it.

P2f is like you dad knowing someone at a charter/regional/banner towing company. You get a job with them because of your connections. You get to clock up some decent hours but eventually you have to move on. Now if your mum/uncle etc has been around aviation for a while they might know the HR manager at a regional airline who can squeeze you in but highly unlikely. So now you have 1000TT with some multi (possibly) and your looking to move up. You send out Resumes and get a few interviews. The only problem is you don't get a job. Plenty of interest but no trophy. Why? because you may have a bad attitude,bad IF skills,rubbish interview technique etc. It's the same with P2f. Your buying 500 hours. Regardless of if you have a 1,2 or three year whatever contract at the end. In reality you paid for it. Having a contract at the end just makes it a more attractive P2f scheme.

So you have completed your P2f scheme. Remember its a user pays scheme. Unless your complete crap at flying a plane you will get on one regardless of all the people saying the sim ride is super hard and they are super picky. You got a one year contract at the end. Now your Resume sort of looks like you worked and didn't P2f. You go for some interviews and some of you may/may not land a job. It's a big gamble. Pay to fly is the same as daddy calling his old school chum and getting you your first job. Unless that first job is in a DHC 8 or a A320, you will eventually have to go get a job for yourself. This is where you find out if you are really are cut out to be a pilot.

.

BeCareful

7th Dec 2011, 06:22

Thanks gents. Lion Air will never get my business and fly me or my family.

I just don't buy the whole 200 hour, fresh out of a Seneca or Seminole, and into a B-737 or A320 simply because an FO forked over some serious cash, and not because they are the best available candidate. Far too much liability is put on that captain and babysitting.

So Mr. 88, you want to do this scheme because you get a job afterward? Clearly logic and math aren't your strong points, are they? With more and more lost souls like yourself rushing with their cheque books to do these schemes, you are effectively eliminating higher paying jobs.

Just stop and think... why should an employer pay you a good wage when there's another idiot right behind you with a cheque willing to pay them to do the job they should be paying you to do? Why are you paying an airline for the privilege of generating revenue for them? It's not like they can generate any revenue without a guy in the right seat. Again, bean counters 1, pilots -1 (epic fail!)

Again gents, if you want to pay to fly, rent a Cessna 172... hell, you can buy one and fly it for a lot less than the cost of your "line training."

goldenman

7th Dec 2011, 08:12

Guys think they can be hired with their 500h of 737 when they are in a catch 22.
Catch-22 (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_%28logic%29)

"a pilot tries to get a pilot job but he has to pay to work, but they won't hire him because without money he can not get a job".

Who will hire them when you just need to hire a guy who pay you to do the job.
If I had a house, and need a gardener, why should I pay a man when he offered me free service or even give me money to take care of my backyard.

think about it? if people give you money in exchange of experience, would you refuse?
what is their plan afterward, go to British airways? not a chance.

crap airline, crap SOP, crap managment, crap training, crap pilots...
and where are these pilots now? no one say anything here so I resume they are sitting at home looking for a job or looking for another round of 500h to reach their 1500h tt minimum requirement to get a job...

If it was so easy, just a cheque of 30'000 euro for 500h, and after FO for 4-5 years then captain, everybody would do it.

Until now, this industry is not interested by low time copilots, because their goal is to get copilots to become captain. If you don't have 5000h or more, just forget about it, they will just take your money.
It s not fair, I know, but airlines don't care about you and your career of spoiled kid, they are business, not charity, and it's not because you have a cpl and a few hours on the 320 (that you have paid) , they have to give you a paid job.

If they can get a pilot for free, they will take him, and you are out again.And if someone pay to work, the free pilot is out as well.
And the only way to get paid, it s when there will be less pilots than jobs available, and it will be probably never, not in the next 10 years. Maybe in the USA, but not in the rest of the world.
.

Groundloop

7th Dec 2011, 08:16

The linked articles here might also be worth a read.:ok:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/471092-more-lion-air.html

KAG

7th Dec 2011, 15:20

You destroy your own job.
The pilot is his worst enemy.

Eaglejet is a shameless scam.

aviator_88

7th Dec 2011, 16:01

Well Mr.BeCareful,

let's talk math now.

First Option

Flight Instructor-----cost 8k€
Salary------7€/hr
Flight time-----300hrs/year
End result: takes me almost 4 years to repay rating cost, I got 1200 SE flight time with guys on my left side trying to kill me while flying in 40 yr old a/c

Second option

TR-----20k€
"line training"-----25k€
Additional cost---5k€
Flight time-----1200hrs/yr
Salary----16 months x 4000$ = 64k$
End result: in two years I'll have more than 2000hrs flight time on 737 and my debt will be almost payed

Who knows, maybe we wouldn't be here in this situation if most of pilots didn't go to fancy overpriced integrated courses at CTC/Oxford thinking they would be ahead of modular guys. I think that was where P2F was born, paying 100k€ and more for less than 200hrs TT only because FTO had connections with airlines :ugh: :ugh:

jetjockey696

7th Dec 2011, 17:39

Dont worry, lion needs more pilots next year... after this news article. because local pilots will jump to citilink and garuda for better T & C.

For itchy young pilots out there... DONT BOTHER APPLYING TO GARUDA AND CITILINK... THEY ONLY ACCEPT LOCAL PILOTS...

Garuda Indonesia’s low-cost unit, Citilink, expects to almost triple its sales in 2012 as it adds new planes and benefits from Indonesia’s economic growth, an adviser with the company said.

“We’re still optimistic on 2012 being a good year,” Con Korfiatis, an adviser to Citilink’s board of directors, said in an interview in Jakarta on Monday. He didn’t give a precise forecast for revenue, but passenger numbers may more than double to as much as four million, he said.

The carrier plans to receive 11 new Airbus planes next year, roughly doubling its fleet, as it works to add about four new domestic cities to its network.

Lion Air, Indonesia’s biggest budget carrier, also signed a provisional deal for a record 230 Boeing 737 aircraft last month because of rising travel in the world’s fourth-most populous country.

Citilink and Lion Air’s expansion plans are creating competition for pilots and causing congestion at the nation’s airports, Korfiatis said. Citilink will partly meet its need for cabin crew by working with parent Garuda, which has a training program, he said.

“We are pretty confident we can get pilots for those 11 aircraft,” he said.

And airport bottlenecks may ease, helped by government investment plans, the Citilink adviser added.

Indonesia may spend at least Rp 3 trillion ($330 million) on its airports next year, Herry Bakti Gumay, director general of aviation at the Transportation Ministry, said on Tuesday.

The Indonesian economy will likely expand 6.3 percent in the period, according to International Monetary Fund data.

Garuda is planning to make Citilink a separate but fully owned company, with its own operating license. Th is would help pare costs and possibly pave the way for an initial public offering. The move should be completed by the end of March, Korfiatis said.

Shares of state-owned Garuda, the nation’s biggest airline, closed unchanged at Rp 415 in Jakarta on Wednesday. The stock h as tumbled 45 percent from the price at its February IPO.

Citilink’s sales in the first nine month of this year were almost double the full-year tally for 2010, Garuda’s chief financial officer, Elisa Lumbantoruan, said in a text message on Tuesday. He declined to elaborate.

The unit may account for 30 percent of Garuda’s sales by 2015, the CFO said earlier this year. Garuda ordered 25 A320s in June to support Citilink’s growth.

Jakarta Globe 7/12.2011

tarmac12

7th Dec 2011, 21:18

Mr 88,

Bonding is how you pay your training costs back, ie you stay with said airline for 1,2 years whatever.
Anyone who see's wages you are paid by an airline as a way to redeem your training costs is a little silly I think. Stop trying to look at it with rose coloured glasses.

Instructing will always be around. Guys like the one's on this forum who seem prepared to keep paying money even in bad times prove it.
You all went through flying school and had some good,awesome and probably some very average ones. Stop ditching on instructors. How would you feel if you were an instructor and your student told you that your only doing it cause you couldn't get in an airline. Does anyone think instructors anywhere else in the world get rock star wages?
I would take the 7 quid an hour and 300 hours a year and hold my head high knowing I'm doing a noble and thankless job. Also, if your any good you will get a job through the great contacts you will make being an instructor.
I'm crap at teaching which is why I never took that route. Made my search much harder but got there in the end.

dood

7th Dec 2011, 22:45

@tarmac12

Your logic is ludicrous. So paying back your bond through your salary is fine, but paying back your loan for line training through salary is not fine. In any industry that's exactly how it works! You pay for your education through a student loan and pay it back through your salary. The only difference aviation is bloody expensive.

Instructing is always a good path to build hours. Provided you're capable of instructing and from your previous posts you clearly understand. Do you realize that not so long ago flight schools sponsored FI courses. Now they don't because they are a dearth of pilots looking to build hours. In the last 5 years in UK a FI rating has gone up from £4-5000 to ~£7000 that a pilot pays for himself. Only to earn £7/hr which he/she may or may not enjoy or even be good at. I've had horrendous hour building PPL FI's that up and left without so much as a 'here's your training record filled up' and amazing career FI's that really know how to teach.

I'm digressing. The point is for most becoming a instructor is just a cheaper tier of pay2fly. I won't try and debate the value a 200hr pilot has in teaching a new student pilot over a career instructor sharing his years of experience often from other types of aviation and other walks of life.

Your last comment about being 'any good' and 'getting a job through great contacts' is such a contradiction to your previous posts. So a newbie with an aunt or uncle (read contacts) getting them into an airline is not good but all of a sudden making contacts yourself and getting placed the same way is great.

The contradictions go on. You post about applying to Cathay Pacific and not hearing anything and just prior to that, bash the very programme you applied for stating your friends realized that other avenues would have been better.

In my opinion, whether you want to accept it or not is entirely your choice, is that you seem to care a lot about what other people think. I admire your sense of morals and wish I saw the world as a fairy-tail in which everything ran with amazing efficiency. But, that's not the case. It's an airlines market and they can choose who they want regardless of what route was taken. No airline will hire someone incapable and dangerous. If it does happen it's not the individual who was hired's fault but the system through which he was hired and deemed qualified.

So please stop bashing at things from the sidelines without first hand experience. jetjockey696 has valid points, backs up his arguments, has first hand experience and is relevant to the thread. If you want to discuss it further feel free to PM me or start a blog with your criticisms.

Back to the thread Lion Air 737+500 Line training ->

aviator_88

7th Dec 2011, 23:16

Really, you would accept earning lees than 200 eur/month with masters degree and fATPL with FI??? Really??
Well I don't know where you come from but 200 eur/month is not even close to rent I am right now paying for my apartment...
Well guess what, some of us have to work 13hrs a day(job that they really hate) to afford to be current and to afford their own place...FI salary won't get bread to my table, as much as I love flying and teaching, so please cut the bull**** and stop blaming people doing what they have to do...one day, if someone ask me how did I get ino this industry, I will be able to tell, with a LOT OF HARD WORK and DETERMINATION...whatever anyone else thinks...

(sandlover, sorry for going off the subject)

tarmac12

8th Dec 2011, 03:09

Dood.

Bonding is where you stay with a company for a certain period of time so as to not owe any money for the training they gave you. This isn't to be confused with salary sacrifice to pay for a type rating, line training etc. Alot of airlines make you sign a 2 year training bond. Leave before 2 years and you have to pay pro rata what you owe for training. Leave after 2 years and you owe nothing. If you need to get endorsed well thats up to you usually but some airlines will bond you or get it back from salary.

As for your relatives getting you into and airline is the same as you doing it yourself isn't really the same. If I had the opportunity for a family member to get me in of course I would do it but getting it yourself feels so much better. The true meaning of that post was if a relative gets you your first job don't think that the next one will be as easy. Time in book doesn't equal employability.

Last time I checked Cathay Pacific is a no money up front scheme for zero hour guys up to ATPL guys to be SO's. Five years after signing on you can leave no questions and you didn't have to pay a cent. I have no problems with anyone who has a go at it.

Sometimes somone has to be harsh for the message to be heard. I haven't had a fairytale ride at all. I washed dishes in a restaurant and stacked shelves at the local supermarket for two years and even drove a truck whilst on my aviation adventure. I still had to rent a flat and buy food and pay bills. All this whilst keeping current. Which I failed to do at one point and it cost me a job.

goldenman

8th Dec 2011, 06:24

hello all,

pay to work or be a flight instructor, you don't make any money at the end.

flight instructor makes to low for a living. Especially in winter.1000-1500 euro a months.
and pay to fly, you never make any money as you pay to fly.

So whatever you choose, you are pretty much screwed. Plenty of fi without job, and plenty of 320 pilots looking for jobs.

I mean look what s going on TV, they all try to save the euro. Unemployment is high, greece and italy have problems, we all have problems, and we still see crazy pilot spending more and more thinking they will get a break.

this is hilarous!:}

KAG

8th Dec 2011, 07:14

First Option

Flight Instructor-----cost 8k€
Salary------7€/hr
Flight time-----300hrs/year
End result: takes me almost 4 years to repay rating cost, I got 1200 SE flight time with guys on my left side trying to kill me while flying in 40 yr old a/c

7 Euro per hour? Which country did you pick?
300 hours a year? Which flight school are you talking about?
7 Euro an hour after 4 years? Something is wrong somewhere.

I think you took all the worst situations possible to put them together and created your "standard" instructor path.

Students trying to kill you? What are you talking about? I have more than 2000 hours of instruction, nobody tried to kill me.
2 Years and half after I started instruction (CAD $30 an hour) I was captain on King air, so don't sell your "standard" instructor path you created here to everybody.

TR-----20k€
"line training"-----25k€
Additional cost---5k€
Flight time-----1200hrs/yr
Salary----16 months x 4000$ = 64k$
End result: in two years I'll have more than 2000hrs flight time on 737 and my debt will be almost payed
But who will pay you back for your dignity?
Paying to work, it means you are the slave of your environment, and ready to do anything to find a short cut. What kind of pilot does (will it) it make you?
Paying your way up to what you consider the goal to reach without doing the travel to get there is destroying the image of airline pilot itself. And when you will have destroyed it, nothing will be left for you to be proud and enjoy you career you didn't build.

1200 hours a year? Haven't you read all the witnesses who went through lion air and eaglejet on pprune?

Let's put some irony now: don't you realize that if you don't pay to work, the same position will be available without the need to pay for it?

Pilot is his worst enemy.

ldsouto

9th Dec 2011, 19:16

Hi jetjockey696!

Those are precious infos! Thanks for sharing!

Pilots who don't want to get a credit and don't want to build jet hours shouldn't criticise mates's option.

Some prefer to build a career: flying SEP, MEP and hopefully at the age of 45 find an airline which will sponsor them with a TR;

Others prefer to get a bank credit, fly jet engine planes directly after finishing FTO at the age of 25 and at the age of 27 they've paid TR and build 2000hrs!

Easy to choose i'd say.

BeCareful

9th Dec 2011, 19:56

OK, very flawed concept there Mr. 88.

Let's look at it from another angle:

You are PAYING someone to generate revenue for them. Seriously, who does that?! They need you. Without a qualified pilot in the right seat, they DO NOT get to generate revenue, ergo they cannot do business, ergo they go out of business. They are not flying empty airplanes so you can get hours; they generate revenue by transporting passengers and cargo, and you are PAYING to do this for them and holding out hope that at some point they'll actually pay you!

This bring me to the question you never answered - if there are more of you P2F folks coming after you, why should your "employer" PAY YOU for doing the same exact work that someone else is WILLING TO PAY to do?

MisterT

9th Dec 2011, 22:28

Guys - the scheme is BS!

Don't ruin our T & C 's by doing this !

tarmac12

9th Dec 2011, 23:23

Idsouto,

If you don't expect do go from a MEP to jet until your 45 you should look at another line of work!
The tried and true method that many people took before you just doesn't happen quick enough for you I see. Alot of people on this forum want instant gratification. I will again try to post something constructive.

With the global market the way it is and so few jobs on offer, those who can wait it out will be the winners. Aviation is cyclic and has always had peaks and troughs. Many aviation hopefulls will simply give up all together or let thier currency lapse. This will put all the smart guys and girls in the position of being able to say to employers that when the market was down, I stayed current and tried to fly as much as possible with what my budget would allow. The ones who walked away and then came runnning back when hiring resumes will be in a much less favourable position as when the question is asked of what they have done since getting thier licence the reply will be "nothing". Not the best thing to say in an interview!

Hurry up and wait isn't the answer anyone wants to hear but I don't think P2f is the answer either. If you feel P2f is your only option and your not going to put yourself or your family in a compromised postition financially, then do what you have to do. I wish you the best of luck with your aviation career. Be as professional as you can and don't let other people's poor standards rub off on you. If your going to Asia dont loose your temper in public or berate a superior in front of other employees.

Good luck and safe flying.

truckflyer

11th Dec 2011, 15:07

I have a friend doing this, and his experience is that it works, but expect it to take much longer. From TR finished to start flying it took 6 months from arriving in Jakarta, and even with a new TR it was not a walk in the park.

Ruining T & C's, can't see that in these cases, as not many would go to fly there anyway, most the companies with these schemes would be pretty unattractive for people from Europe anyway.
I would not do it myself, but I can see why some do it, will give you much time on type, and doing the calculations on their 500 hrs + 12 month contract, it works out economical way to get in to the Jet.

tarmac12

11th Dec 2011, 20:10

Hello again,

Just spoke to a 737 Captain on the weekend who is based in Japan. He reckons after the fiasco that Vietnam Airlines had with a Korean guy who was supposed to have flown for Batavia (P2f) but apparantly didn't, there will be some airlines putting bans on hiring anyone who trained with an Indonesian carrier. (The guy had written in nearly 600 hours bus time in his book but it seems he only did the endorsement and a few circuits) This is the story that atm is not confirmed but appears to be credible.

A Singapore based LCC was also bitten by the Indo bug when it hired 12 ex Batavia Capt's after the company cut wages and a big chunk of the pilot force resigned in protest. The flying standard of these Captains was supposed to have been quite terrible. The company line was that with a little training they will be fine. Well they weren't and all but I think one never made it to line. Company then put wages back up but the majority of guys had already left Singapore! If the Captains are that bad then how good do you think the training was that FO's got?

Above mentioned Captain warned that anyone taking up the P2f scheme in Asia should remember that the airlines participating are usually considered sub-standard by European/Amercian/Canadian companies and those countries aviation authorites. He hasn't a clue about the European providers but he's sure you would never see BA/AF-KLM/Lufthansa or Iberian ever offering one.

Just read this and keep it at the back of your mind. Thought that if you put all the info out there people can be better informed with the decisions they make.

Does anyone know any more news on the Vietnam Air incident?

truckflyer

11th Dec 2011, 22:34

What you are saying, does not apply for Lion Air from what I have heard from first hand information.
My friend who did his TR in Germany, got blasted when he did his first checkride there, and had to do retraining before getting ready to start flying. His first hand information was that standards was very high.

They are also affiliated with CAE in addition to Eagle Jet, so this what you are saying is all complete BS! It would be fairly easy to have the logbook time verified with such a company. That it is not an ideal place to spend your life/career is another matter, but at least give some constructive response instead of being P2F hater, trying to spread fear.
The ones who do this, will not care about what you say either, as more succeed then fail doing these schemes, it is not like we see hundreds of pilots coming on PPrune and telling how they got ripped of or failed with the EJ / Lion Air program, pretty sure there would be some disgruntled posts about this if this was the norm.

If you pay for it, you still have to be good enough, if not, you will not get in either! At least not on this program.

tarmac12

11th Dec 2011, 23:59

Truckflyer,

I wasn't bashing P2f in my last post but giving advice to people who are going to do it (re an earlier post where I stated that if you must do it be careful about it) to be very careful who they pick. I'm under the impression that a few Greek or Italian LCC's do P2f? There's an old thread about Royal Air Maroc doing a P2f aswell.

The Eagle Jet website states that European and Asian bases are available and I'm sure the CAE one says it has various locations.

Why would you go to Asia if you can do it in Europe on North Africa with a little more reputable airline?

This is a serious question and can anyone who has researched this more than me be able to anwer my question please?

jetjockey696

12th Dec 2011, 05:16

Sorry guy to interrupt your slap and tickle contest... the guys from batavia are the worst.. a bunch of cowboys. Even Lion are reluctant to hire them.. pee poor airmanship and safety. A lot applied, a lot failed. just cant fly (Capt). My friend did a simulator with a Batavia Capt. and it was his first time he every did a hydraulic fail A and B. Batavia PC was a simple engine out, go around and land that kind of thing.

Dont even mention about maintenance. you better call the roadside service (AAA, AA or Greenflag) to fix your plane than ask the maintenance guy.

Batavia has been cautioned or banned (cant remember) by Saudi after there pilots (A330) was caught not having enough rest period, the practise is common. these guys fly the haji came back to JKT less than 24hs rest then back to Saudi.. NOT because of scheduling but because of the pay.. night stop pay.. USD.

truckflyer

12th Dec 2011, 10:32

I am not sure why "Batavia " is brought up in the discussion here.

If there was 12 under pair captains hired by a Singapore LCC, they would not have been trough the P2F, neither have I seen much companies offering P2F associated with Batavia, their standards might be terrible, I can not give my opinion as I do not have any details about them.

There is however enough threads that bashes P2F, rightfully or wrongfully, this thread could try to avoid these, and keep to the requested facts.
- and from first hand reports I get from my friend who is currently flying for Lion Air - it has been real hard work, and initially he was not up to standard, and it took much more time to get up to standard then expected. Even though he had a TR with a reputable german TRTO, which in his opinion compared to the requirement by Lion Air was well under pair with regards to training standards.
I guess it means a TR without experience is not worth a lot.

For some P2F will be the right choice, for many they will sooner or late at least have to pay their own TR to get a job, either we like it or not, good or bad T & C's.

If an Oxford or CTC student has an advantage due to the school they have chosen, and the overpriced training they have chosen, what is wrong for a modular who have spent considerably less to get himself an advantage, for less then the Oxford/CTC student would have spent in total for training + line training?

Fact of life, money rules, it seems though P2F is not a big problem, rather that we have to pay for own TR is the immediate issue which has come to stay, and associated with any new job today in addition to a salary that would even make an Aldi/Tesco worker on minimum pay go on strike.

How can the airlines defend paying their FO's £1200 to £1600 a month? That is the disgrace, but we accept it, and live with it, hoping for a sunny day in the future where there will be a golden package available.

However those in the P2F bracket, will have to go trough this after reaching 500 hours.
However the Lion deal, if it works, is not the worst on the market, at least they promise you 12 months of work, at reasonable pay, if it happens we will have to wait and see.

Rudolfjon

12th Dec 2011, 12:18

Is there anyone here who has applied for the line training program and is still waiting to go to Jakarta? If so how long have you been waiting and if anyone knows what the average waiting time is from applying to going to Jakarta?

tarmac12

12th Dec 2011, 21:49

Tryckflyer

I bought this up as Batavia also offers P2f. I know this thread is about Lion Air but it reflects the country as a whole and needs to be taken into account. If the guy training you is sub standard then you will be sub standard.

As for your friend needing extra training, did all the people in his class need extra training or just him? If everyone needed it then maybe the standard is high but if it was just him maybe he just needed some extra sims. No shame in that. We all learn at different speeds. Secondly, was this "extra training" having to be paid for by him or is it included in the price?

truckflyer

13th Dec 2011, 10:32

tarmac12 - I agree with your conclusion regarding the training captains, however not every captain is a training captain, but not going to start splitting hairs here either.

It is not an ideal way to gain experience, personally I can see that for people like my, with age against us, having a chance this way, albeit for me not optional, I could not leave my family for 2 years to go to Indonesia, others don't have this problem.

I believe he was doing his sim check approx 4 - 5 weeks after his TR skills test, and failed it. He told me after he thought the TR had been of a much lower level then was required by the airline. (Lion)

I believe he did another 4 hours in the sim, retraining, but was made to wait almost 6 months before I got to start flying. So the time line of 500 hours + 12 month contract, has to take into consideration various courses required and time spent for this.

He is happy now, he did his re-training in HK.

Gligg

13th Dec 2011, 11:14

There's no law against P2F, so if you want to do it, why not? Although if we're out for a beer, I can't promise l won't make fun of you ;)

tarmac12

13th Dec 2011, 19:51

Thanks gligg,

You got a good laugh out of me.

Truck flyer, Sorry to hear your friend got mucked around so much. I did some right hand seat work with a guy last week (ICUS) and he wasn't anywhere close to the standard I thought he would be at. He was endorsed on type and had about 150 hours doing ferry runs. After about 4 days of solid flying with us he was getting it together and eventually got checked to line (not by me). Like your friend, this guy had used a training provider he thought was very good (I thought a German TRTO would be top notch). In reality it was cheap (fixed price) and they got pushed through.

I know with the Eagle Jet scheme you can already have a rating but do CAE require you to do it with them? Sounds like it might be a better idea to do your rating with the training provider or whoever they suggest so you don't end up like truckflyers mate who waited 12 months!

I found out yesterday that a guy I did my ME IR with a few years ago is still looking for a job. He is doing it through an Indian company with Lion Air. He was an international student at the school and said the job prospects in his country are so bad now that if he doesn't do the Lion Air programme he has run out of options. Apparantly the Indian guys get 3 year contracts after 500 hours. Anyone heard of this?

jetjockey696

14th Dec 2011, 04:48

Yep... there are alot of indians here with Lion... run by a serving indian FO .Kush B. a CAE (india) Candidate..and his friend in India.. use the pprune search..you can find a lot of info. but he used this route to get into the company then offered lion to supply indian pilots for the ER. now he looking for ATR pilots.. I guess using him is cheaper than using other agencies...

But there are reports from instructors that his guys are also not to lion standards in the sim etc. as the indian guys boasting they were. retraining needed.. which of course comes from the candidate pocket.

Eager pilot

14th Dec 2011, 05:59

I'm looking to do TR & join P2F with eagle Jet. what do you suggest A320 or B737 and carry on to lion Air.

ReverseFlight

14th Dec 2011, 14:34

Eager pilot, have you ever visited Lion's website ?

LION AIR - We Make People Fly (http://www2.lionair.co.id/ourfleet.aspx)

:ugh:

737max

14th Dec 2011, 18:26

I've just seen this guys,

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/471707-lion-air-stops-recruiting-through-eagle-jet.html

Eager pilot

16th Dec 2011, 06:39

Mate I Mean A320 TR & line training with Eagle jet ( Partner Airline ) not with Lion Air & B737 Tr & line training with Lion Air.

ReverseFlight

16th Dec 2011, 15:01

If I was in reverse and reversed again, then I'd be goin' forwards. :ok:

Seriously, I'd hold things for the time being to see whether Lion is still using EJ (Lion may be oversupplied by MSD anyway).

As for the elusive "Partner Airline", I believe there is none this year. Any positive news of late, anyone ?

tarmac12

19th Dec 2011, 03:00

Well if the Indian company takes over the supply of P2f to Lion Air, EJ will have a tough time getting another NG operator in Asia to take its customers. They can't do it in China as Foreign FO's are forbidden and I cant see China Airlines (Taiwan) or any Indian Airline doing it as they already have established cadet schemes or feeder schools. Dont think you can have foreign FO's in India anymore anyway.
You would have to look at Africa for NG operators and I don't think Africa will appeal to that many people.

Maybe a middle east carrier? Anyone got any ideas? I thought MAS might pick some up as they are in need of pilots and money right now but they only have 6 NG's and the rest are 400's.

jetjockey696

19th Dec 2011, 15:21

Middle east already p2F... they advertise here.. PPrune.... Skiesconsultancy...

tarmac12

19th Dec 2011, 22:41

Jetjockey,

My question was who will they team up with (EJ that is ) to do the package? Skies consultancy is an established operator and I don't think they would let EJ muscle in on the airlines they already use. Which leaves the question as to who it will be if Lion is out of the picture.

By the way EJ still advertises on its site that it has a NG programme with Asian bases (even though its only had one for a while) so maybe they are the last to know?

jetjockey696

20th Dec 2011, 05:09

Tarmac 12

Sorry I wrote the statement wrong... What I trying to say Middle east has already. P2F run by Skies.

Lion will always need pilots Capt and FO, as the turn over rate is high in LIon. So pilot are supplied by Eaglejet and MSD.. and maybe CAE.. Why would Lion stop the supply, if they stop. where are they going to get pilots.. since they are not going to give markets rate salary for there pilots.. besides they are not accepting anyone who apply direct..

DOnt let people scary and worry with words. its christmas time all hiring has stop in most part of the world too. until the new year. Sit back have a few drinks and a big fat turkey dinner.

Dont worry you have your time in hell too... :ok:

punk666

20th Dec 2011, 11:16

Tarmac...regarding expat FO's in china. HKE have taken on a lot of ex lion air pilots ALL foreigners.

tarmac12

21st Dec 2011, 23:55

HKE is obviously Hong Kong. The locals only rule doesn't apply in HK. Also, read the "Demise of HKA" thread. Go there if you really want.

Lyndon24

25th Dec 2011, 16:57

Grrrrr just when I save the 26,500,..The devil bounces the price back to 33,500 hmmm in the spirit of Indo I am wondering if we can negotiate lol

dood

26th Dec 2011, 16:54

It would be rather amusing if P2F training providers started competing with each other over who can give the airline the biggest cut rather than who can give the student the best deal.

No airline = No students and vice versa. Looks like we know which way it's likely to tip...

tarmac12

29th Dec 2011, 10:10

Jetjockey,

I know you are on the coal face at Lion and for that I commend you. The conditions are not ideal I have heard. P2f or not you are working hard and these trying circumstances must make it harder still.

So, if you want to pay 30 something big one's no experience needed but if you want a direct entry FO gig then you must have a 1000 hours on type? What are they offering 4000USD a month? Fly Dubai is only offering 8k I think. Who on earth would go to Lion for that when there are so many better offers around?

This just goes to show just how out of touch the Lion management are in terms of T&C's at other airlines. I'm sure they will be flooded with apps from other 737 operators where the conditions are so much worse. Actually I think only Afghan has worse conditions than Lion.

Jetjockey, can you tell us the low dowm on the deal? I'm just speculating of course!

TheMark

30th Dec 2011, 22:02

New PRISON...

500 Hour B737 NG Program + Guaranteed 4 Year Employment: $39,700

Yes... 4 YEARS!!!

tarmac12

30th Dec 2011, 22:53

Is that type rating included? or do I have to pay even more? I bet they only want 50K USD if you leave early. Where do I sign!

AlexanderH

31st Dec 2011, 03:47

500 hours and a one year contract in Jakarta would just about be bearable but 4 years would not be fun. Although at least you would have 4000+ hours upon leaving.

The missus wouldn't be best pleased with living there for 4 years either.

I suppose it's a way to entice p2f FOs to stay with Lion Air and not jump ship after a year and a bit?

I just wish there were some other programs in the far East apart from Jakarta.

mutt

31st Dec 2011, 11:32

4 years in Jakarta sounds like fun. Much better deal than 500 hrs and getting kicked out.

angelorange

31st Dec 2011, 20:40

Lion air and other p2f rip off merchants on EU and USA blacklists

1001 Crash - Airlines Black List (http://www.1001crash.com/index-page-liste_noire-lg-2.html)

This rating is applied if one or more of the following deficiencies are identified:
The country lacks laws or regulations necessary to support the certification and oversight of air carriers in accordance with minimum international standards.

The National Civil Aviation Authority lacks the technical expertise, resources, and organization to license or oversee air carrier operations.

The National Civil Aviation Authority does not have adequately trained and qualified technical personnel

The National Civil Aviation Authority does not provide adequate inspector guidance to ensure enforcement of, and compliance with, minimum international standards.

AND the National Civil Aviation Authority has insufficient documentation and records of certification and inadequate continuing oversight and surveillance of air carrier operations.

AlexanderH

6th Jan 2012, 00:10

Unfortunately it looks like the only choice is the 4 year employment contract and nothing shorter. A shame really because I could have dealt with 1.5 years in Jakarta.

But 4 years would be madness.

Jerry Lee

6th Jan 2012, 09:14

Why madness? There are a lot of pilots who spend almost even ten years in Africa and SE Asia.

AlexanderH

6th Jan 2012, 11:45

Having lived in China for a number of years I can advise you that 4 years in Jakarta would get on your nerves and you would want out after maybe 2-3 years.
I was considering the one year program but this is no longer possible because of this new contract.
Hong Kong, Bangkok, Singapore you could all live in for 4 years but Jakarta is a whole different kettle of fish.

In Beijing the pollution was pretty bad but bearable and it's not as bad as in Jakarta.

However, each to their own at the end of the day. If you think you can do 4 years there, be my guest.

Jerry Lee

6th Jan 2012, 12:01

Understood AlexanderH. Give a look at jettraining.net. Thay have the same old-Eagle Jet's 500 hours + 1 year guaranteed work programme.

boogie-nicey

6th Jan 2012, 12:49

It's all down to preference and what kind of lifestyle they expect for themselves. Some will as you say spend a prolonged period of time in such places whereas others see it as a means to an end and simply want to get it over with and onto someplace more lucrative like the Middle East.

Then again 'employment' is the name of the game in the end so if someone is offering you 4 years is that really so bad? I know they don't pay the best but at least the low salary is offset somewhat by the lower cost of living. Then again all up and coming cities in Asia are becoming increasingly expensive by the day.

As a pilot many people should be aware that multi nationalised work environments are the norm and we need to be the ones who are eager to travel. That's part and parcel of becoming a pilot in the first place.

Hope that helps.

JAMUP

7th Jan 2012, 04:03

its nice to read lots of views on this subject. I am a Low hours pilot waiting for an opportunity like this but after seeing the new Contract i realized its not going to happened. I was in the middle of deciding whether to do the Flight instructor rating or to save more and join this program. Now with the prices going up from USD 28000 to 39000 for Line training I may have to see another avenue or Give up aviation since I am already in my Mid 30 s.

I am one of those who always looking for first hand experience. so I rung the CEO in USA at Eagle and got confirmed the rumor that Lions Contract was cancelled d with Eagle ( there was thread somewhere here ) then the CEO s answer was that he has worked with Lion for 17 years and this is non other than damaging their link with by another few competitors.

now I am constantly in touch with a batch mate of mine currently doing the 500 Line training waiting to get the work permit cleared from them at Lion. mind you he has to spend almost a month doing nothing once he came to Jakarta until he could get the SIM ride booked and failed the check ride . Both of them have done the EU Type rating but came though Eagle. so its not the flying that matters , its the waiting time. and time is money where yo have spend your savings towards housing, food until you get checked out after 500 hrs, mind you there are 7 ratings to get before you join the Company as well. So even before you start your Line training you may have spent close to USD 60,000 which is something that I have to think over and over again.

I am still in touch with him and even though he has signed a contract they are waiting for Work Permits, then again after Lion s order of 150 + B 737 order , my only hope is the Asian region for future Jobs as low timers.
Now since My friend who is on line with Lion does not know anything about the new Eagle jet contract of 4 years ( he doesnt wnat to kow since he is now with Lion ) can somebody please tell me the truth about leaving early before 4 years and the amount you have to pay ? has anybody here negotiated the one year deal from the 4 year deal, can we have that option?

aviator_88

7th Jan 2012, 08:51

just for your info Lion started operation in 2000 so it's kind of impossible to work with them for 17 years...
another thing...this is not just a "line training" as you sign contract with Lion before you start flying (work permit is issued when you start with sim-phase 1)...they just use expression "line training" so they don't have to pay you. In conventional old school "line training" you are free to go after 500hrs, here, you have to stay 4 years working your ass for peunats...
if you wait enough you will see price dropping. there are not enough people who can afford this.
I also planned to join when offer was at 26500+1yr(2max) but now no f..ing way

Does anyone know who else is "hiring" for Lion??

boogie-nicey

7th Jan 2012, 11:03

A fellow groundschool buddy of mine from a few years back recieved a document from Eaglejet in which they claimed that the ATR program also included employment for approximately 1 year. I got a copy of it from him at the time and can confirm that's what it said in the document.

Hope that helps in someway.

Jerry Lee

7th Jan 2012, 11:13

Did your friend work there for approximately a year after line training or not? I don't get what you mean. Boogie-nicey, could you be clearer please?

boogie-nicey

7th Jan 2012, 11:42

Sorry about the confusion, no neither of us undertook the program as he was pondering over various options. Nevertheless I was surprised when he told me about the employment option because the website didn't mention it yet I could clearly see the document had stated 500hrs + 1 year slavery (employment :p).

In fact I have never heard of anyone going onto the Eaglejet ATR program so can't really say much more than. Just my 2 cents worth I'm afraid.

Jerry Lee

7th Jan 2012, 12:02

I think no one has gone into ATR program yet because for most of the wannabes Boeing or Airbus is cooler than the ATR - I think this is the answer.
Personally, I'd prefer the Dash 8 Q400 over the ATR42/72, but when it comes down to work, there is no difference for me unless I can choose.

AlexanderH

10th Jan 2012, 13:00

jettraning.net do not offer line traning + employment contract. They simply work with EagleJet to supply the type rating to the prosepctive candidates.

A320 line training is done in Turkey and the only 737 program they have is with Lion Air in Indonesia.

Skiesconsultancy have programs in Armenia and employment deals for the a320 with an airline in the UAE, however, the salary for the one year employment contract is $1000 per month.

Not a huge range of options out there really.

wigwag

10th Jan 2012, 14:21

AlexanderH

Which airline is doing the a320 line training in Turkey ?

falconetti

10th Jan 2012, 14:32

What about the B737 prog in europe with EJ ??? Testing in jan25/6.
Which company ?
And the reply from EJ lately indicates more EU-prog to come ???

Any info ?

captain.weird

10th Jan 2012, 15:09

Which airline is doing the a320 line training in Turkey ?

I'm not sure, but I believe FreeBird and AtlasJet let their planes hire by those idiots..

pN2bip

16th Jan 2012, 17:06

avoid lion air .....it is becoming more more dangerous...
u will have to fly with first officer who have been upgraded to captain and have no idea about how to fly but they believe that fly 130 hours per month makes u a pilot ..

efatnas

29th Sep 2012, 22:48

Hi
Anybody have any suggestions if one was a Captain on B737@ B727 but hasn't been flying those in five years or so. I'm flying corporate the last few years and am banging my head against the wall trying to get back into a Boeing. I'm about to sign up for this eagle one hundred hour captain madness. I'd be eternally grateful if somebody has an idea to get around the recency in type requirements for direct captain positions; can't afford a low paying job anymore...:yuk: As far as I'm concerned, one should be able to fly any plane with ten legs in it or so. Mine is a dinky westwind, that's the only one I'm current in. Beware of changing type after your airline shuts down........ it's all for the kids, right.....

Piloto2011

30th Sep 2012, 08:47

Anyone considering to partake in those shameful schemes just have a read here:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/494741-what-do-you-expect-p2f-2.html

You reap what you sow.

You lot willing to prostitute yourself are just despicable. And don't be telling me it's just the way the industry is these days. It's not. You're just too weak to earn your place.

If anyhow possible I avoid flying Lion at all costs as for good reason I know there is only one effective (if at all) CM on board.

AlexanderH

30th Sep 2012, 15:50

**** me. Not this crap all over again.

wisecaptain

30th Sep 2012, 17:48

$ 21,000usd up front then 4mths to get to the 100hrs release on line and salary as a captain then 12 months contract $72,000usd all in gives an average of $3200usd per month NETT truly terrible !!!!
However you then move to a proper job on $180,000usd and multiply by yrs to retirement and it probably looks much much better.

efatnas

3rd Oct 2012, 13:48

Yeah there are some who don't participate all the time so the whole thing all over again; you know how else to get around the twelve month in type requirement let me know.

surfino

4th Oct 2012, 21:26

Maverick, in late March you were in doubt between applying to MDS, EAGLE or FALCON and now, 6 months later.. You fly shiny jets?

Callsign Kilo

4th Oct 2012, 22:51

He might be? Probably isn't get paid for it. Congratulations. :D :ugh:

break_break

5th Oct 2012, 00:00

love this! do whatever you have to do, all these "p2f haters", ignore them I payed!(Observe the I, no one else) I fly shiny jets and I love it

We don't hate p2f, most of us are saddened by the fact that p2f folks don't see the writing on the wall.

P2fs are now a worldwide phenomenon due to few simple reasons. Many Gen Ys are with wealthy parents who are willing to fork out the $$$$, or ignorant self-motivated individuals who's passion is flying the metal tubes, but could not see the consequences of accepting the P2F arrangement.

Think about this, with so many willing to so called "live the dream" and P2F, thinking that the good days are ahead, what you guys have helped done is for opportunistic vulture like Lion Air in lowering the T & Cs for good, permanently.

In case you have not noticed, worldwide, thanks to P2F "contribution" or people who actually think it's ok to fly and be paid peanuts, we won't see any more pay hike for many years to come. So don't bitch about anything that's being advertised. If I were to be in the airlines management, I will go for the kill too knowing how stupid the new generation of pilots are.

Enjoy the ride boys, by the time you move up and if you're lucky to squeeze through the doors to any legacy carriers, do hide your P2F background for your own sake.

jetjockey696

6th Oct 2012, 07:30

Jugs08... Lionair/airAsia does not accept CAE first officer program anymore. P2F in lionair is coming to a close.

cirrus_

6th Oct 2012, 18:52

I would agree with that statement, although they are still taking people from eaglejet and CFA but I think there is more to it than they are letting on.

as I said in another thread I failed the sim assesment with them and lost alot of money, no second chances.

the sim was totally over the top and I personally think they have to fail a certain number of people wether they cut it or not.

now work as FO with a major carrier and no problems during sim checks!! I rest my case...

cirrus_

6th Oct 2012, 21:14

break break

I dont think P2F on your resume will affect future employment, I know of several guys who have been on the scheme and found jobs after Lion.

my wife works in HR for a major carrier and its not a consideration.

anyone who pays 40k to better themselfs and gain experince on a particualr aircraft shows a sheer dedication and passion and I would want them flying in my airline.

VWH12

7th Oct 2012, 00:04

JetJockey would Lionair really scrap the P2f scheme? I would imagine it must be very lucrative for them? Did they get a better offer from another TRTO+line training provider?

cirrus_

7th Oct 2012, 06:34

Hello all,

this is a thread aimed at all those heading off or planning to join Lion air.

I have had numerous messages asking about the programes, so here is a General Q and A for you all.

1.) Lion air have contacts with 3 companys and do not take direct entry under normal circumstances. these are MSD, Eaglejet & CFA

2.) all 3 contractors are legit and I have personally met with the owners of both Eaglejet and CFA

3.) if you are seriously considering applying for a programe, you need to be sure you are an above average pilot. the type rating on the 737NG is not easy, and you will be placed in a very different environment to what you are used to at your flight schools. pilots that just got through there CPL, MECIR may not make it. flight schools tend to allow you to pass flight tests more and more easily these days and it will do you no favours in the professional world.

4.) GO TO JAKARTA!! even if just for a few days, it will be the best investment you make, Jakarta is very different to the lifestyle you are used to, it is not the safest city in the world and many westerners could potentially be taken advantage of if your not careful. you need to ask yourself, could I stay here for 5 years?

5.) be prepared to work very hard, your Type rating will be very demanding and this is just to get you past your check rides, the actual sim assesments and line checks get harder. you need to have the abilty to work and study hard with litte or no social time.

If you dont you will not make it. I promise you that.

6.) if you are still reading this and feel you can adhere to the above then you have a fantastic oppertunity to get some serious time on the NG

Myths and legends about Lion air

1.) Lion air will soon stop taking P2F pilots - I have personally seen the numbers for CFA and eaglejet and current wait time is around the 6-9 months to get a call up to go to Jakarta, once you are in Jakarta it could be up to 12 months before you start flying the line, it depends on several factors. as of the time of writing I know of no reason why any of these contracts will cease.

2.) if you join Lion air you will never be employed by a major carrier - This is a myth, you will read on here by fellow Ppruners that this is the case, however at the time of writing it will have no affect on future jobs. in other words if the anti P2F pilots makes it to CP they will not employ you which may happen one day. but for now its just hear say

3.) the standards at Lion air are terrible - this is not the case, the standards are very high, and no different to that of any other carriers. Lion air have pilots comming from ICAO states, UK, USA, Australia, Europe and are among some of the best trainined pilots in the world. be prepared to undergo vigerous recurrent training every 6 months.

4.) anyone can walk in to Lion air - if only that were true, it is simply not the case, you need to be above average, the average pilot fresh out of flight school with 200 hours will strugle to even get past the type rating let alone the line checks. of course it is every pilots dream to fly a large passenger operation jet, but the fact of the reality is you need to build up some experince else where before applying to the programe, and if you have the sort of money these programes cost then that should not be a problem. if you think you can "beat the system" I assure you that your mind will be changed after your 1st FFS ride. its not a fun game like flight school was, its serious buisness you have 230 lives at stake and a 33 million dollar aircraft. things need to be done correctly and done well. it was agreed by 2 of the 3 contractots that the majority of 200TT pilots dont make it to Lion air, and around 70% of pilots with 500 - 1000 TT get through and start flying the line.

well there is certainly alot of information to take in, I hope it helps,its an honest and accurate report of goings on at Lion and the 3 contractors that send pilots to Jakarta

Wesker

7th Oct 2012, 09:42

You make it sound like it's Top Gun. If you can't handle a TR course and sim checks you shouldn't have gone to flight school to begin with.

An above average size of wallet and an above average level of desperation is what you need for this program.

jetjockey696

7th Oct 2012, 12:11

Lion Air has cease expats intake. I know because I asked. They going to serve out the reminder of the pilots who have been given a clearance to start with Lion. Recently about 30+ local cadets have start with training with Lion, more to come every month there are many flightschools, churning out CPL. Lion like local cadets more than expats because the contract is 5+years. expats only last 2years at most, some dont even last a year. (homesick)

Cirrus mention Indonesia is not for everyone.. its a tough country.. White guys seems to be a walking $$$.. no one that nice..not even your mom towards you. let's rip him off mentally..hey its a Third World Country... DOG eat DOG world.. you gotta to survive.. especially for the young ladies.... GUYS watch your wallet.. not from pickpockets... but from gold diggers. I know a few young pilots got into trouble with the local talent.. pregnancy etc..

People forget that the hiring of expats was to fill the shortage, fill the gap. Lionair has exceed the allowed number of expats by many times. Now the Indonesia Labour department has ask lion to stop because they seem to have forgotten the local cadets.. so stop or consequences will follow.

Just a little heads up.... pilot hiring bubble in Indonesia has burst.

Babicha

7th Oct 2012, 13:33

How about the pilot that been selected recently by either eagle jet CFA or MSD?
Since lion like local because they stay longer,this might be the reason y CFA change their contract to 4 years instead of 2 like it use to be!

cirrus_

7th Oct 2012, 17:43

this is why it is a great idea to go to Jakarta first, I have a freind who got passed all his sim checks in 2010 and lasted 6 months before having a break down and leaving he is now being pursued for 50k he does not have!

it is for this reason I wrote my thread on what it takes to make it out there, be honest with yourself and if you dont think you could do it save yourself the heart ake.

some of the best advice I could give is below, it comes from experince and my own personal career.

flying a new aircraft is fun for about a month, after that the novelty wears off and it becomes routine. in the case of a Lion air pilot the reality of the low pay would be the major factor for most once the novelty wears off, rememeber there is another 3 years 11 months to go of this, suddernly the 50k to get out seems like a bargain to leave this terrible lifestyle for some

however if you can put that aside and stay focused you may get through it with out any problems.

the average take home pay at Garuda or citilink is around 4-5k PCM
Lion air pay expats 2,300 on paper but I have heard they try and get this lower once they offer you a contract.

dont assume everything will be fine and dandy, get yourself a week in Jakarta first is the best advice on here by far

wisecaptain

7th Oct 2012, 19:55

So Cirrus , you 'heard' that Lion try to reduce salary?
I think all airlines play that game dont they?

I have a colleague whos son lost his job in Europe on turboprops and then after 2yrs unemployed took what was left of his savings and redundancy money , did the B737NGtype rating and is with Lion Air now as an f/o.
He netts £2300/mth , flying 100hrs/mth and stops flying at the legal max which he sais there is no pressure to exceed but they will try if you let them.
6 days on 1 off till out of hours every month.
He grits his teeth and gets on with it and has been in the Qatar holding pool for 8mths and now more recently Emirates too which is tough.
P2F is better than the dole and has opened up doors for him.
Its horrible but you can only blame Ryanair and Easyjet for starting this ball rolling.

efatnas

7th Oct 2012, 22:06

I guess I started this Lion thing back up. Everybody always talks about low timers and there first job. For Cirrus, no you are not right. One should fly night freight, airforce, commuter or whatever before going on a major passenger jet. It's very difficult to develope instinct flying in highly automated big jets from the start. Reliability is up so much that instinct is not necessary anymore on a daily basis, just on a rainy day. I guess that is what you mean talking about Lion air's air superiority. I already have 10000hours in jets, and wonder howelse to get currency in type back. I was more thinking a month or two in Jacarta, not for years. If you know of somebody who lets me have some fun in his 737 let me know.

flydog

12th Oct 2012, 01:57

What is p2f

flydog

12th Oct 2012, 02:17

Thank you cirrus for your comments, they are much appreciated when others just prefer to whine!

To join Lion Air does one have to go through eagle or the others or can one apply directly if already type rated on B737 with 2000 on type

Swabber

12th Oct 2012, 10:08

p2f means: Pay to fly

cirrus_

18th Oct 2012, 18:38

You have to go through EJ,CFA or MSD you cannot apply direct to Lion, if you do they will write back to you thanking you for your intrest and directing you to one of the above companys.

in terms of exams, there are 4 exams to pass for your licence conversion, they are not hard, but you wont pass without the required study.

there is also 3 internal exams to pass on the 737 systems.

the latest news I have heard is that there is a backlog of around 90 pilots waiting for there 500 hours to start, Lion have 2 aircraft being delivered next month and then nothing until next year.

it would take approx 12 months to get on line with Lion when you take in to consideration retirements, new aircraft and people leaving.

pilotchute

22nd Oct 2012, 07:36

I do not work at Lion Air. I just thought this was good food for thought for anyone considering going down this path.

I really wish i did this kind of research when i was at PPL level, i would stop immediately with only few pounds loan instead of 100K thati have now and i'll never pay back ..... i have now more than 2000 in 737 NG , working in Crapy Sh.Hole in asia for a black listed p2f eaglejet airline ...

No chance to mooving on a better well paid airline so far.... !!! every year paycut, and lots of incoeming new cadets comeing trough EagleJet and California Falcon Aviation so i will loose this job as well sooner or later becouse there is no shortage of FO so far...

But really... i don't care anymore.... i'll come back in my country and sell sofas or cars for real money, it will be the end of this nightmare and back to a normal life...... if i work hard i'll be able to payback and live with my family and my friends...

I really wish i did my home work instead of listening to all those BS about "THE GREAT PILOT SHORTAGE" i found in the flight training and TR or line training providers websites !!! They are the real Scam !! the worst liars in this game.....

Even if they provides you with a FO seat you'll have no future after that.... becouse the real situation it's just that.... if you have to wait 6 months after you apply to EagleJet and then another 6 months to start 500 LT to get a 2 Yaer nightmare pinouts pay Contract with 50000 dollars penalty if you live, and they can fire you whenever they want with no warn or reason..... gives you an idea of waht we are now, unwanted stupid and not smart dreamers... this is what we are.....

pilotchute

28th Oct 2012, 02:25

Well I thought that my cut and pasting of the previous post from another thread would have got some debate going seeing as everyone wants to do line training these days.

Really, no one going to defend Lion Air? Some previous posters where going on about how many people got hired after going to Lion and how in this day and age paying for 500 hours is ok to get ahead in life.

B737900er

28th Oct 2012, 09:14

Maybe because the p2f topic has been done so many times and that the threads are all the same and it gets boring :ugh:

Getting the minimum hours to apply for a job is just the beginning, actually getting the interview and passing is a total different ball game all together.

As a previous thread mentions, there are lion pilots at Jet2 fly scoot HKE and Qatar. As I said the interview is the hardest part of the game, trying to convince someone that doesn't know you to hire you.

The guys who haven't got jobs, (I would say 90% of them) don't have a job because they don't have 1500 hours total and an ATPL.

Pilotchute, I can understand your frustration but P2f has been going on for years and its only since the recession it has been brought to light.

In my opinion and others, the industry went down hill since the rise of Loco which undercut everyone. The only way to compete with this is to lower your costs down as well.

A good example of this was a few years ago when BA nearly went under and O'Leary bragging how he could buy BA with his profit he made.