China Pilot Medical Failures [Archive]

Soab

28th Nov 2011, 23:51

It's usually a collaboration between a company and the CAAC to get rid of troublesome pilots before their contract is due to expire without having to pay them out. Most expat contracts have a clause whereby the contract becomes void when you fail the medical.

I hadnt heard that from the guys Ive been in contact with. Appaliing if true.
I thought most got their medical back, albeit once they used all their sick leave and annual leave, maybe more time off (unpaid) as these things do not happen quickly in China.

Well sh**. I´m going down there for a rotary gig i march. Are you telling me this is common practice? Btw, how long is this annual leave you are talking about? Seems to me the pilots down there work almost everyday throughout the year (offshore work).

Most airline jobs offer between 30-42 days annual leave. So if you have to use them up hanging around in China while grounded due medical, awaiting extra tests or a decision from CAAC, this would be a HUGE issue to many who relied on those days to go back to their home country.

duyen

29th Nov 2011, 00:58

u know why?? because you're a ****in aussie ... **** off back to your country

de facto

29th Nov 2011, 12:08

Already passed 4 medical checks, still here and got my bonus(es) ohhh yeah:E:ok: and few pay rises already..oh yeah:E

ws737

29th Nov 2011, 13:36

de facto...Would you mind letting us know what airline you're flying for?

JotaJota

29th Nov 2011, 21:03

I barely survived 6 or 7 Astronaut medicals in China! Got bonuses and quit...

Soab

30th Nov 2011, 03:15

I barely survived 6 or 7 Astronaut medicals in China! Got bonuses and quit...

That is also part my concern. I am not an 18 yo cadet.

From my sources, the Chinese medical is way over the top compared to the real world. I havnt heard of Captains dying in flight there, but youd think there are many based on the medicals.
Many of the Chinese pilots are chain smokers, with many smoking in flight. Are the locals subjected to the same medical standards.

fatbus

30th Nov 2011, 03:24

The local are subject to the same medical standards but those standards are established based on historical Chinese health stats IE low BMI low BP and as such westerns are on average have higher BMI and BP. It takes a while to get both down if you are older 40+

Soab

30th Nov 2011, 07:42

Fatbus,

You must have read my CV.

DauphinDude

30th Nov 2011, 11:07

What about vision then? Last time I checked I had -0,25 on one eye. Hardly impaired vision or anything, and I don´t use glasses, but if this "Astronaut" medical is as heavy as you say...

WYOMINGPILOT

30th Nov 2011, 22:58

The Eye exams are surprisingly easy in China. The big problems are BP, EKG, Blood/Urine tests, Color ultrasound in the abdominal area for kidney stones and other internal organ anomalies. The Foreign pilots have a substantially higher failure rate than Chinese Captains. The check is also every 6 months. The CAAC docs expect pilots to be astronauts. Don't come to China if you have any health problems and don't expect much job security here. We are simply short term paid mercenaries. If the economy burps in China Ex Pats will be the first to sent packing. Internal politics, tedious ATC flow control and lack of social life make China EXTREMELY difficult for most Ex Pat pilots.

Soab

2nd Dec 2011, 07:35

Wyoming P,

How many expats have failed their CAAC medicals and of those failures how many got their medical back after further checks or medication etc.

Whats the normal and max BP they accept, I assume its lower than the Western reqts.

DauphinDude

2nd Dec 2011, 08:48

In the end maybe it doesn´t matter. Maybe I´ll have to pay off the doctor. However, the general manager at where I´m gonna work is a friend of mine, so as far as I know it´s all arranged already. When I visited last july I managed to toast a full glass of wine to all of the 8 leaders, including 1 high ranking Party official, I was told I gained massive respect for that. I was told to not underestimate the cultural etiquette.

USMCProbe

2nd Dec 2011, 10:21

DD,
Yes you have discovered the truth that connections are everything here. Unfortunately, doing a toast at a dinner buys you squat in China other than 100 smiles. But they would have smiled anyway.:O:O:O

Everyone here has connections, some forged over several family generations. Any that we expats have here mean absolutely squat.

I am not sure why so many fail the physical, but I believe they are just as hard on the local pilots. A few months ago I was told that we had 39 local Captains on medical leave, and we have less than 200 captains TOTAL. We are a 3 year old airline, and the average age of a captain is probably early 30's. Stark numbers.....

Why? TIC. That means "This is China", which really means who the F#$@ knows, and 5 years from now, the answer will be the same.

I collect my paycheck on the 25th of every month, and look forward to the next 25th, and have as much fun as I can in between.

If you cannot do that, China is definitely not for you!!!! LOL

And I just got back from CAN for a visit to the doctor for my 3rd case of Guardia (Travelers diahrea) in 18 months. I have been to over 90 countries, and have never had it before in my life until I got here.

Happy flying!!!!!

DauphinDude

2nd Dec 2011, 10:46

Thanks Probe. I got the diarrhea when I visited as well. I don´t know if it was swimming in a public pool or the fried jellyfish :\

My situation is probably quite different than yours though. I am a low-timer. The company will provide me with type rating and living quarters. If I "fail" the medical after 2 years, I will still have earned quite a few hours, which is everything that counts at the moment.

Off course family ties are the strongest, but as I am a friend of the family and even lived at my future boss´s home during my first visit, I feel pretty good about the whole thing.

treykule

2nd Dec 2011, 11:12

I have had medicals done in many juridsictins, and China's are the absolute most thorough. You get them done in a special hospital.\
Goes something like this. General body check, blood and urine tests, ECG, sonagram, stress test, chest X-ray, hearing and eyes, EEG, internal medicine check. Yes they find problems.. Things like gallstones appear on the sonagram. But as the doctors performing the examination pretty much all work for the airlines, I have never seen any power tripping. I had a false positive on a blood test. Gave another sample two days later, and had it resolved the next day.
Many of the new expats are older and about 15% I have been told have some problem initially. I dont believe the power trip thing for a minute, and at my age having one every six months is very stressful. Most of the new expats I have seen there have been in country just a few days.

If you are healthy you will have no problems, but their limits for things like blood pressure are a bit more stringent than those in other places.

You should worry more about the exams written in Chinglish.

Soab

2nd Dec 2011, 12:27

My situation is probably quite different than yours though. I am a low-timer. I have 185 hours piston and I am 22 years old.

I wouldnt expect you to worry about the medicals if your 22.
But for the airline Captain positions advertised, by the time you are getting the experience they want, your not a cadet anymore, or a cadets age.

I have had medicals done in many juridsictins, and China's are the absolute most thorough. You get them done in a special hospital.\
Goes something like this. General body check, blood and urine tests, ECG, sonagram, stress test, chest X-ray, hearing and eyes, EEG, internal medicine check. Yes they find problems.. Things like gallstones appear on the sonagram. But as the doctors performing the examination pretty much all work for the airlines, I have never seen any power tripping. I had a false positive on a blood test. Gave another sample two days later, and had it resolved the next day.
Many of the new expats are older and about 15% I have been told have some problem initially. I dont believe the power trip thing for a minute, and at my age having one every six months is very stressful. Most of the new expats I have seen there have been in country just a few days.

I didnt realise the doctors work for the airline, thought they must have worked for the CAAC. Perhaps that varies with different airlines
You would think the airline would get p%%s off with the doctors grounding their pilots for 'problems'???? that would not affect the safety of the flight.

I am not sure why so many fail the physical, but I believe they are just as hard on the local pilots. A few months ago I was told that we had 39 local Captains on medical leave, and we have less than 200 captains TOTAL. We are a 3 year old airline, and the average age of a captain is probably early 30's. Stark numbers.....

I think that sums up the stupidity of the situation, they are unrealistic on what medical standard is required.

Not surprising they are advertising for pilots, they have enough already, but only if 20% arnt on medical leave.

How many Captains have died or become incapacitated on Chinese Airliner flights.

Rotorhead1026

2nd Dec 2011, 15:08

And I just got back from CAN for a visit to the doctor for my 3rd case of Guardia (traveler's diarrea)

Giardia. It's a bug we used to be able to tolerate; at least it wasn't as bothersome 100+ years ago; once we started ingesting purified water we eliminated whatever was inside of us the protected (many of) us. You might have just one extended case - the bug is difficult to kill off. You can get it anywhere you drink unpurified water. I expect the rural locals in China all have it but can tolerate it much better than you or I.

Soab

7th Dec 2011, 09:42

Thanks to those who sent me PMs.

Damn, im surprised there are any expats passing their medicals and flying in China.
It explains why they are constantly advertising for pilots, the failure rate must be huge.
Great if your under 30 or so.

Im getting mixed reports. Do the Drs work for the CAAC or the airline your applying for.

Has any pilot or the airline, (that your aware of) had to pay 'bribe' money to pass their medical or is it nothing to do with corruption?

POWDERFINGER

21st Dec 2011, 16:45

WYOMINGPILOT summed up the situation very well. The CAAC are strict on many things, and can also make arbitrary demands for extra tests (or simply deny a medical) to protect their own jobs. Much of their BS would not be tolerated outside China.

I have seen the CAAC micromanage the local doctors, forcing them to pull medicals or do extra tests on foreign pilots. If you get an airline job in China, save your money and do not expect job security.

cameltoad

22nd Dec 2011, 01:55

Hey Soab
I am one of those who was in China and failed the medical for total BS reasons, if you want to know the details I will gladly share them with you but the fact of the matter is the CAAC could care less about you and your career and from my own first hand account and from watching many others at my former Chinese company. They will fail you even if you check out fine, if they think you do not fit the mold they will just keep ordering tests to be done till you cry enough. I can honestly tell you all that you have heard about this back assward, Chinese NASA physical is absolutely true. From the chest xrays, ultrasounds to hunt down those killer gall stones, trying to produce an epileptic seizure with flashing lights, and the notorious blood PSI check, For 25 years took them twice a year in the US, always around 115/74 but come to China and now 125-135/85-95, hmmmmm, wonder why, could it be that the cuff is made to fit a 5'4" 140lb man who's only exercise is curling cigs and TsingTao to his lips, so when they try to fit the "one size fits all Capt" to a 6'6" 275lb Westerner who does exercise hard 5 times a week you end up with the Chinese medical comedy routine of one guy pumping the thing up and another holding to my arm. Not lying, they actually thought this would work, when I told docs. back in the US (after taking my blood psi. with a correct size cuff and reading 112/70) their advise "I'd pick another country before they hurt you"

Soab

22nd Dec 2011, 02:34

cameltoad,

Thanks for the reply.

I would be interested to hear what they failed you on exactly, what your readings were and what their limits are.

You could PM me if you prefer.

Thanks.

treykule

22nd Dec 2011, 12:42

I was a bit unclear about the doctors. Perhaps because I am a bit fuzzy on it myself and have not bothered to check...Either the doctors are CAAC employees who also work for the airlines, or airline employees who work for the CAAC part time..Not sure which, but the same doctors are in the airlines that do the CAAC medicals.

Lets be clear here though. The medicals are thorough, and the limits a bit stricter, but they are not impossilble. I am flying on an age waiver , and still manage a class one...as do thousands of other pilots....class 1 , that is, not the dinasaur waiver.

Dauphene Dude....you mentioned you were young and low time.. Be careful. Rose colored glasses will get you skinned alive in China.

DauphinDude

22nd Dec 2011, 13:43

Thank you, I have been warned by several :)

I should develop an escape plan, hehe.

USMCProbe

22nd Dec 2011, 21:04

Treykule;
I also wonder if they are CAAC employees, company or whatever, but TIC. This is China. That means a lot of things, including that I will never understand anything here, even if I am here 10 years.

CAAC employees? Yes. Brother in Law of Air China chief pilot? Probably. Cousin of Chief Purser at China Southern. Yes. Taking kickbacks from China Eastern to pass their pilots? Who knows. I would guess yes.

The only thing I know for sure here, is I don't know squat, and will never know squat. I have just had to learn to live with that and be happy every month when they pay me.

Good luck!

POWDERFINGER

24th Dec 2011, 17:17

I just have to share this one:

In Xiamen, the CAAC doctors rejected a pilot for having one testicle too much larger than the other. They nixed another pilot for having "gall sludge" visible in an ultrasound.

It's an arbitrary world - you must be able to seriously keep an even keel when dealing with China.

Soab

25th Dec 2011, 03:17

POWDERFINGERI just have to share this one:

In Xiamen, the CAAC doctors rejected a pilot for having one testicle too much larger than the other. They nixed another pilot for having "gall sludge" visible in an ultrasound.

It's an arbitrary world - you must be able to seriously keep an even keel when dealing with China.

I didnt realise the Chinese were such healthy people compare to the rest of the world.

I assume all the CAAC and airline Drs are much better than the average population.

http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+chinese (http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+chinese)

http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+usa (http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+usa)

World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer (http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+uk)

World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer (http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:AUS&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+australia)

Expats are contract pilots and can be laid off at short notice. They also require pilots to be current on type with 600-1000 hours PIC on type, so training would be minimal and on revenue earning flights, so the cost would be minimal to the airline.
They cant claim large amounts of money are being spent training Expat pilots so their medical standard must be significantly higher than Class 1 standard.

Strange!

WYOMINGPILOT

25th Dec 2011, 04:45

@Soab
"Im getting mixed reports. Do the Drs work for the CAAC or the airline your applying for.

Has any pilot or the airline, (that your aware of) had to pay 'bribe' money to pass their medical or is it nothing to do with corruption?"

The CAAC has its own doctors who perform the medicals every 6 months by coming to the airline and accomplishing all checks for the medical and review the preliminary tests you accomplished before they arrive like blood, urine, ekg etc. Each airline has its own doctors who work for the airline and are there to keep you flying and also act as liasons with the CAAC. As an individual pilot you will never be able to perform bribes but the company doctors travel to the regional offices to perform special administrative tasks:sad: read that however you like. If the airline likes you and wants you then your chances on passing are much better.
Blood pressure requirements in China are 140/90. If you are close they will require a 24 hour BP monitor. Abnormal EKGs can also send up a big flag here in China. The medicals are not extremely difficult but they are very THOROUGH. They expect pilots to be like astronauts when in reality we are more like bus drivers.

JotaJota

25th Dec 2011, 07:04

In simple words, do not bet you "Chinese Career" on your health...

CAAC Docs are owned by the airlines/CAAC. You will pass your medicals in they need you, want you, and like you... It's as simple as that!

GL

Soab

26th Dec 2011, 08:17

WYOMINGPILOT,

Thanks for the info and the limits.

How does the 24Hr BP monitor work. Do you stay in the hospital for 24 hrs.

I didnt expect the pilots to have bribed the Drs directly to pass medicals (although working in Asia for many years, I shouldnt be surprised if it happened), but did wonder if the airline did to get their applicants 'approved'.

I may be well off here, (PMs also taken into consideration here) but does it appear the medical may be used as a way to fail applicants they dont wish to employ. Has anyone failed the application process by other than medical issues.
I realise there are also quite a few medical renewal failures or issues, so its not only initial applicants that are failed.

One PM I received said he failed on the static BP test, but the test was hardly a true static test.

USMCProbe

26th Dec 2011, 11:02

Soab;
One of the important things here is to understand, that we will never understand how it works. If understanding everything that goes on around you is vital, this may not be the place for you (or me).

If you have to ask "why", and get an answer, you will probably fail the blood pressure test (as I did). Then you get to take the 24 hour test, like I did (passed this time).

The one they put on me was just an automatic, battery powered blood pressure tester that tested my pressure every 15 minutes, exactly. Next time I will just pay an 18 year old chinese person to wear it.

Smile and be happy in your ignorance. It is working for me so far. Most of the time.

LOL

tcas69

26th Dec 2011, 14:59

Definitely second your comment. On my (small) half yearly checkup I failed the urine test, they told me to redo it and drink more before submitting it.
I put my sample on a desk with ca 50 others and they promptly lost it (;-))
Well, I was on my way to Europe when they realized it so I did the test here in Austria and sent the results, No problem...and a merry Christmas to you all
BTW: CAAC Hospital PEK

Fareastdriver

27th Dec 2011, 18:14

I first arrived to fly in China on a joint venture offshore helicopter operation in Shenzhen. I, like the rest of the foreign pilots when flying the Chinese registered aircraft, did so on a CAAC endorsment of my British CAA ATPL(H). The UK 'G' reg aircraft, when flown by Chinese captains, who had been to the UK and had obtained a British CAA ATPL(H). All the co-pilots flew on either Chinese licences or validations from the CAA.
Come 1960 and my sixtieth birthday and it was considered that I could no longer fly in China. I flew a bit of contract in the UK and came to China in 1964 where I discovered that the CAAC would respect the limits of the host country inasmuch as the age limitaions were concerned. My previous employers were strapped for pilots and in a short time I was back in China in command.
The United Kingdom bins pilots at the age of sixty-five so in 1965 I left with the advice to get an Australian licence so as to continue my career. (Australia has no age limit and the company had confirmed with CAAC that they would respect the Australian limitations as well). This I did and I returned to China with an Australian ATPL(H) that was endosed by CAAC so I was back in command again. I was now employed and paid by a major British helicopter company but I was prohibited from flying their, G reg, aircraft; so I stuck to the Chinese ones.
A year or so later the scene changed. The days of unlimited endorsment renewels was over so I had to get a Chinese licence to continue flying in China. This took time, as opposed to the month it took in Australia, so I had to work there and commute to China to pass the various stages. I obviously passed the so-called astronaut medical and all the complicated catch questions in the exams and I was awarded a Chinese ATPL(H) at the age of sixty-six. The British part of the operation then ceased.
I now flew directly for the Chinese company on short term contracts until they no longer needed me in late 2008 and I finally retired two months before my sixty-ninth birthday still with a Class One medical. All is not bad in China. I had no trouble with any of the CAAC licensing or medical staff, quite the reverse.
The last years that I flew in China capped my career with a golden crown. I only wish I could do it all over again.

cameltoad

29th Dec 2011, 03:39

Hey Soab,
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, You said you wanted the details of my issue, it's lengthy but here it goes.
First a little background, I have never had any medical issues of any kind in 25 years of flying, and have always exercised. That being said also know that I am 6'6" tall and weigh 290 lbs, I wear a a size 16 shoe. (or 1.98 meters and 130kg)
The initial medical I had no problems whatsoever except the blood pressure showed high. The Chinese limits are 140/90 and I was right at it. I had just had a first class a month ago and knew it was normal. But even though I am not a doc. I knew the fact that the cuff barely could fit on my arm could be the issue.
I was sent back to America and told to have a 24hr. blood psi. test done. They wire you up, put a cuff on your arm and a little electric box records the twice hourly psi readings for 24hrs. My average was 117/74.
Back in China with this info the Chinese still kept trying to take my psi. with their "one size fits all" (Which according to the Cardiologist that I consulted back in the US a too small cuff will show a false high reading 10-15 psi. high)
Finally I was sent to a Hospital with a Cardiology center and with the right cuff guess what, a normal reading.
Even with this CAAC was not convinced, like so many others I was now on their radar, I had to do another treadmill stress test, and even after that was fine I had to do a CT Angiogram, They shoot you up with a radioactive dye, and make a 3-D imagine of your heart. That went fine, no sign of coronary heart disease.
In China as you guys know the 6 month medical isn't as severe and even though with the still to small cuff (this is also the time where in amazement one doc held the cuff to my arm while the other pumped it up for a reading, I'm not kidding, actually happened. While I'm on this subject I was informed by docs. in the US there should be 4 inches of overlap, the CAAC cuff barely had a half inch, when they would pump it up it would just rip off) they claimed my psi. was ok.
On the next year check I knew I was ready, I had been exercising a lot, had been checking my psi before every trip with the co. doc using the same crappy cuff. I did the whole two day medical and everything was fine, so of course the docs wanted more checks in the form of a treadmill stress test. I did it and was told it was fine, but when compared with the one from a year ago from another hospital they didn't exactly match. So now they asked for another 24hr. psi monitor, a sonogram of my heart, and a CTA scan, this is when they shoot you with a radioactive fluid, run you on a treadmill then make an image of your heart, then the next day yet another dye and another image of your heart and compare them, all three of these test were fine.
Along with this I took it upon myself to see a Cardiologist in Hong Kong just to be sure. He ran his own test and look at the data from China and said I was fine and didn't understand their paranoia.
Even after all this the CAAC would not renew my medical. They wanted an Angiogram. This is when they cut into your artery, run a cable up to your heart, inject a dye directly into your heart and take an image. Needless to say there are risks associated with this. I had a meeting with the head of the Guangzhou CAAC Med. division to ask for a little common sense and why such extreme measures were needed. He told me and I quote exactly "Captain we know there is nothing wrong with you but this is China, the First Officer's you fly with may not be able to land the plane by themselves if something happens to you and we would be in much trouble so we must be absolutely sure"
So I refused, and came home, you have read a lot of theories on this and all are more or less correct. I do believe and have it on a very good source that some Airlines are on a lot better terms with their local CAAC docs. than others and where I was they did in fact have the highest rate of expat guys failing medicals (for what its worth Chengdu has the best). I know China well enough to know that I do believe that once you do "hit on their radar" you will always be watched extra carefully, and the reality of China as well as for these Docs is that there is no upside to using a little bit of common sense and a whole lot of downside. At the end of the day failing an expat guy on a med. check has no impact on them whatsoever but a problem not caught would most certainly cost them their job and prob. some jail time.
Sorry for the long thread but you wanted to know

treykule

29th Dec 2011, 04:15

USMC probe posted some real wisdom, as did some of the others.

This is China. You can accept it and work within it, or fight it. The latter will not work. You will never understand it.

The comment about first officers is absolutely true. The whole learning process here is about memorization. Not understanding. Some are natural pilots and a pleasure to fly with.. Others...well...not so much. If the plane was going straight down they could tell you with 100% accuracy that you have exceeded Vne, but not realize you are going to hit the ground.

A bit of thread drift there. Most companies have handlers to walk you through the medical.. It is a bad sign if it takes you the full two days to complete your medicals. Means you are on your own. We are typically in and out in a few hours..butting into line is also a Chinese cultural tradition....you are next...right after me.

As to the get rid of you syndrome.. Yes.. It is done. Our company does a non medical version of it.
But to allow someone to save face it is better if the do not pass a medical than to be told they are just incompetent or not working well in the system. Not agreeing with it. But it is the way it is..and you must learn to accept that nothing is as it seems if you want to work here.

Our company once had our AOC suspended because our CEO, who is an honorable man, refused to have dinner with a corrupt senior CAAC official.
Cost us a lot of money until we got it straightened out.

I cant over emphasize..It is the way it is here..It is not the US, UK, australia, or any other country. The culture is different.

MrHorgy

31st Dec 2011, 15:41

Does anyone know if it's possible to sit the CAAC medical BEFORE going out to China? I'm toying with the idea of some far east work (China or Japan) but I suffer from a mild form of IBD. No problem for the CAA but I bet I would have problems out there - I don't want to jack everything in here then find myself with no job.

Horgy

Soab

2nd Jan 2012, 08:23

Hey Cameltoad,

Yes a lenghty post, but I and maybe some others watching this thread appreciate it.

The guys Ive talked to have commented on the local pilots too. They use two Capts and two FOs each flight, but the Expats are always PIC. The local Capts are probably classed only as cruise Capts (and may well be for the remainder of their career by the sounds). There are local Capt with different designations that are rostered as PIC on their flights.

I would hope they wouldnt fail you on the medical simply because they dont like you. I would much rather been told im unsuitable for the position rather than subjected to medical screening as Cameltoad was, and then failed.

Cameltoad BTW What airline did you apply for with all the ridiculous medical checks. You could PM if you dont wish to post here.
So I can avoid applying to them.

Cheers

treykule

2nd Jan 2012, 09:11

I would hope they wouldnt fail you on the medical simply because they dont like you. I would much rather been told im unsuitable for the position rather than subjected to medical screening as Cameltoad was, and then failed.

....SOAB.. You need to reread some of the posts...TIC ...This is china...they do things their way. If you are going to fly here you have to understand that it is a different culture. We all play by their rules...
It is sometimes difficult for foreigners to work here if they think their way is the best way, or even the only way.

As to the medicals...they are CAAC medicals. Unless you are flying on a short term validation, everyone takes them

Soab

2nd Jan 2012, 10:47

treykule
As to the medicals...they are CAAC medicals. Unless you are flying on a short term validation, everyone takes them

As mentioned in this thread, some airlines may have better relations with the CAAC than others.

Dont know if thats anything to do with greased palms, or wishfull thinking by some.

rollingscissors

2nd Jan 2012, 11:01

It is sometimes difficult for foreigners to work here if they think their way is the best way, or even the only way.

The CAAC's way is the only way. The best way doesn't matter when dealing with them.

cameltoad

3rd Jan 2012, 16:56

Hey Soab,
It's not about the airline liking or disliking you. I flew in China for a 1 1/2 years and at least at the airline that I was at if they liked you they would go the extra mile to keep you and if they didn't, usually in the form of guys just not flying to their standards or fitting in with the program they just fired them.
But as far as using the Medical for dismissing pilots this is simply not the case. Most of the air carriers in China need experienced Captains and to have the government step in and get rid of a guy for "sludgy gall bladder" is a real hit to their operation. Do I believe that some airlines have a better relationship with their local CAAC medical staff than others, absolutely. I know that where I was they did not enjoy a very good relationship with the Guangzhou CAAC (they are the medical administrating body that oversaw medicals in the region) Do I believe that some regions of the CAAC are less stringent than others, yup, know it for a fact.
But as so many have said "this is China" you and I will never comprehend the myriad of subtle workings, back room deals, alliances, payoffs, bribes, and the ever present Asian reality of saving face, losing face, causing your boss to save face, causing your boss to lose face, etc., etc.
I was at Shenzhen Airlines, I liked it there, I pretty sure I was liked as well. And to this day if I was to go and get a potential harmful, totally unnecessary Angiogram they would have me back tomorrow. But I'm not, and the CAAC could care less if I did or not. Shenzhen still needs captains, but for them as well as other Airlines there isn't a whole lot they can do to sway the mind of the gov. Look at what is happening at Beijing Capitol. At some level they have pissed off the CAAC and now they are not allowed to get any more planes till the prerequisite amount of brown nosing and payoffs and penalty box time has been met.:ugh:

Soab

4th Jan 2012, 11:21

Cameltoad,

Thanks for the reply.

Glad to hear you dont believe they would purposely fail guys on medical grounds.
I thought you missed out on the medical while first applying for a job, not on a renewal. Hope something comes up for you.
Thanks for the info on the Airline you were with. I note other airlines in the Guangzhou CAAC region are advertising. I wonder if they have better relations than your airline.

I understand the punitive culture of China. An airline had its expansion plans stopped (even had to reduce by 10% ?) because of the emergency incident. But it was a private airline, not govt owned.

Cheers

cameltoad

5th Jan 2012, 00:22

Yea, but privately owned or not the gov has the final say in the PRC!

Soab

10th Jan 2012, 01:17

The aforementioned privately owned airline was dished out a severe punishment (IMHO), but I wondered if the punishment would have been so severe had it being a Govt owned airline.

After all it was one incident from a foreign Korean Capt.

rollingscissors

10th Jan 2012, 02:56

Part of the difficulty in dealing with the CAAC is that it is quite opaque and does not explicitly indicate the rights of airmen (or airlines). There is no way to get reconsideration or review if an airman disagrees with a CAAC decision. Getting your own tests done and showing them the results changes nothing.

Likewise, when the foreigner got in trouble at Juneyao, the airline was not able to say its side or appeal the punitive edicts. China is a place where "fairness" in government is just a theory, and much of the top - down rulings are arbitrary.

Until there is reform, the best survivors stay under the radar. Use diet, exercise, and over the counter medications to keep the numbers in line! No joke, you can at least manipulate cholesterol and blood pressure results a few weeks before a medical.

Soab

11th Jan 2012, 07:23

Rollingscissors

PM sent.

rollingscissors

22nd Mar 2012, 01:11

Major bump.

Get ready for all pilots in China over age 45 to undergo mandatory MRI exams, an ad-hoc CAAC fire drill because of one pilot who became incapacitated on the job.

Next, there will be 100% psycho stress tests after a captain crash-axes his copilot for doing something stupid.

KAL__Aviator

22nd Mar 2012, 04:12

rollingscissors

Next, there will be 100% psycho stress tests after a captain crash-axes his copilot for doing something stupid.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

Never thought I would laugh so hard at this statement of the month on Chinese medical, till I AM HERE!!

What the hell is wrong with their attitude? And the disparity of excellent co-pilots, compared to the majority worst lots, my freaking xxxxxx..

I knew before I got here, and now am focusing on how not to get agitated.

spkg

23rd Mar 2012, 04:35

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

This forum has helped me so much in my pilot training and future career prospects, that I though I'd give back a little here.

I've noticed a lot of people asking for specific requirements for CAAC medical so after some tough digging I found the official page here:

?ú??????_?ú? (http://www.caac.gov.cn/b1/b6/200612/t20061220_910.html)

Unfortunately its in Chinese, I am far too lazy to translate the entire document, but google translate dose a fairly decent job here, and if any part doesn't quite sound right, feel free to give me a PM, and I can translate specific requirements for you.

Hope this helps

inbluskyz

13th Jan 2013, 23:13

Does anyone know if minor vericose veins (due to injury) in the my right leg could be a major problem? Leaving Monday for China. Thanks!

On Final

14th Jan 2013, 21:08

Hello Fellow Pilots,

There are many very informative posts which have been made here, the information is very useful.

I have been in China almost 5 years and still managing to "Pass" the Chinese medical. It has always been an wild experience and I used to laugh at some of the things they would test us for, but "I dont Laugh Now..!! I think this medical is one of the toughest in the World to pass.

Its amazing what the Doctors find with their old basic testing. Believe me, if you have something wrong, you can pretty much count on them finding it. From the MRI brain Scan to the CT Cat Scan, they will find any Kindney stones (in the making) spots on the brain (showing possible memory loss, Dimencia) to Cancers and Tumors, artery blockages, its amazing.

Also dont even thing about trying to hide a lasic surgery, they have machines designed just to find it. You can fly with lasic in China but have a 6 month waiting period from the procedure. You also have a 3 month waiting period from any surgery (including passing a Kidney stone) before you can get your medical.

I have had the MRI, recent the CT Scan (with die), Radio Cardiogram, booth hearing tests, Serious Eye tests including many machines, Blood tests (liver enzimes check), urine tests, Sonograms, Brain scans with flashing lights and you name it.

To make a long story short, if make it through your initial Check in Beijing CAAC, I think there is also Shanghai CAAC you should be OK if you stay healthy.

The company Doctor and your agent will have some ability to fix some small medical issues as you do your routine checks, thay can be delt with at the local levels. However, the local CAAC is strict once they get their hands on your issue there is not much room for error from what I have seen.

Its China, just roll with it and dont try to figure it out. Just do what your told to do with the medicals will keep your life simple.

I hope my post made some since,

Good Luck,

On Final

mauijim

23rd Mar 2013, 05:53

1.Does anyone know about medical during screening?
2. After passing your medical during screening, will you still have to go through more medicals after being accepted?

I have applied for China Southern.

Thanks in Advance.

Oceanic815Pilot

23rd Mar 2013, 07:45

At SZA the screening medical is the same as the CAAC physical. They don't want to waste time on you if you can't pass. It's good until the expiry date then you will take another based on your age. SZA also did a company medical every six months regardless of age that included the chest X-ray, blood and urine draw, resting EKG and ultrasound.

Jaz and the Fat Man

29th Mar 2013, 01:31

Maui, Once you pass the interview medical, you'll be good for six months. At least that was what happened to me on my first China job. I had one major medical per year and then the company one, which was less. Good luck on the interview! I might see you in April.....

mauijim

29th Mar 2013, 02:44

Thanks A lot Jaz and Ocean. Much appreciated.

Mj

climbhappy

30th Mar 2013, 04:00

i just passed mine....doc said hey your liver has more fat in it than last year....found out rice elevates your glycemic index..damn.. a year ago i failed the far vision test....they said, hey we'll get you glasses during lunch...retook it.. i gained about ten pounds last year...started liftining weights again...didn't say much....as one guy said, just dont drink like a college frat boy...alcohol will show up as a fatty liver.....red wine is always a good idea.....and don't supersixe the fries everday at mcdonalds....i really did change some eating habits, but watch out for chinese food bought out...it's cooked in oil....and all the chinese girls say the oil is illegal..meaning recycled oil....loaded with carcinogens..alot of press has been given to selling illegal recycled oil...be careful at where you eat...

USMCProbe

30th Mar 2013, 17:18

Google "gutter oil" in China. Also fish farming with raw sewage as feed.

MrWooby

2nd Apr 2013, 04:17

Taking un-necessary CAT scans is putting your life at risk. You should only get a CAT scan when it is necessary to confirm a serious illness, or when it is the only option available. Do the research yourself, a CAT scan is up to 500 times the radiation dose of a normal X Ray. MRI's are ok.

No job is worth having to put up with compulsory CAT scans.

USMCProbe

3rd Apr 2013, 04:59

The new tests that started a year ago are an MRI of the brain, and a ultrasound of the carotid artery. Not bad except they are administered, like everything in China, by an untrained kid who is related to somebody important. Probably zero training.

They can end your job. And have done it.

Why? Nobody cares. That is the answer to "why" in China.

WYOMINGPILOT

30th Oct 2013, 01:53

A new twist in the Chinese medical saga. They now apparently are doing cross region medical evals. China is broken down into about 5 regions. Now the Beijing docs check the Shanghai region and the Guanzhou docs check Beijing and so on and so forth. Foreign Captains are now failing at a much higher rate than the past. On every medical it is usually 5% will fail here but now over 10% have not passed and many are doing ridiculous additional tests. For example one young Foreign Captain who had a slight abnormality on his EKG caused by their poor quality machine was forced to take a CT scan, echocardiogram and wear a 24 holter monitor EKG. Sometimes in China they will not actually even tell you that you have failed. You sit by awaiting further tests and then eventually somebody tells you after 1-2 months with no pay that it is not possible that you wil pass. Come here with a 3 year outlook and then leave and you might make it to the end of your contract if you are very lucky and you aren't terminated for altitude bust, QAR, copilot hard landings, ridiculous sim evaluations every 6 months or your medical. There are obstacles at every turn and Zero long term survivability here.