13 years as F/O !! I´ve had enough.

[talias-sin]

Hello everyone !

I´ve been working for the same airline for the last 8 years ( 5 years
with my previous one) and things are not looking good at the moment.
My company is downsizing and their plan is to let go about 70 pilots.
I was relatively close to a promotion but I now I would be looking at a
loooong wait. I´ve been flying the A330 for the past 5 years and the B737
before that.

Even though I´m quite happy in my company.I´ve decided that I have to jump ship if I ever want to be on the left seat.

I have about 8.500hrs on jet ( all RHS ) and would like to find an airline
that is upgrading experienced F/O´s. I´m not hoping to be upgraded on
a widebody ( that would be asking too much I guess ) but on A320 or B737.
I would be willing to go pretty much anywhere to get the magic 500 - 1500hrs
PIC time. I hold a JAA-ATPL & an FAA-CPL ( Multi,IFR )

As I never thought this time would come ( leaving my present co. ), I´m
totally disconnected with the job-market.

Does someone know of any such airline? Can anyone point me in the right
direction as where to look ?? I have searched in several jop-portals but didn´t
find the possibility of going to the LHS without PIC hrs.

Any input or suggestion is welcomed.

Thank you very much for your time.

[Guzzler]

Good luck.

The economic outlook and the increase in retirement age has really put the brakes on promotion.

Very sad. Very demoralising.

[EAM]

The question is, do you really want to leave a probably good FO Job for a bad CPT Job?
One of the few possibilities could be WIZZ Air. If you want to join a company like WIZZ Air and being based in east europe, than go for it.
If not, stay where you are.
Keep in mind, someone could promise you an upgrade, but it does not mean that it will really happen and in the end you could still fail.
Or as mentioned, you give yourself an other 3-5 years and move to the ME, if you like to live there.
Beeing a CPT makes life in a cockpit nice, but its not everything, specially when you have to change your whole life.

[captjns]

Look at FLYDUBAI.

[seat 0A]

After eight years in the company still no captaincy?

What is the world getting to? :ugh::ugh:

[TOGA 10]

easyJet Switzerland?

3-4 years for upgrade and very decent salary also for f/o & sf/o while you wait for your upgrade.

Good luck!:ok:

[Full Left Rudder]

No chance of quick command at Easyjet Switzerland am afraid. Geneva and Basel are saturated with no room for expansion. Only opening a Zurich base would offer quick commands, and that seems unlikely. Is a dead mans shoes game now, with most of the captains under 50 comfortably.

[Tipsy Barossa]

Go to the backwaters of Asia or Africa or even the sand pit. After our '89 debacle, some of our f/os went to those shores, worked some magic and miraculously got command at KAL as A300-600 and B747 skippers! I don't know how they did it, but it is a miraculous route to captaincy!


Seriously....try Air Asia. A few f/os with high hours have attain command their. As for the sandpit, a 3-5 stint at EY as f/o will offer you a chance to smell upgrade to command. Or wait for EK to revive their accelerated command programme.

[Dani]

I have friends who waited 18 years for the upgrading (all the Swissair guys).

Seriously, being captain is far overrated. If you are happy, have a happy social life as a local FO, never change your job just because you want those four stripes. Money would be a valid reason, but not the rank. Being FO is quite cool. I would change my job any time if I would have my life style.

Dani
(Capt hrs: 9000, FO hrs: 2500)

[Artificial Horizon]

I totally agree with DANI, 8 years in an airline is nothing and you would be crazy to move if you are happy with the airline in General. Being a Captain is not all it is cracked up to be, honestly I have seriously considered leaving my current gig to go back in the right hand seat for a bigger legacy carrier. Only real reason for the upgrade is better pay, but the responsibility that goes with it is enormous. Don't move purely for the command, the quality of the company is far more important.

[AAIGUY]

I'm an FO on 330 for Dragon working part time month on/off + 1 leave

I make more money by a large margin than a full time Captain @ Air Asia.

Why would I go somewhere to work more and get less.

Sometimes, you just need to relax, stop chasing the Tiger.. Enjoy.

TT: 8800hrs
PIC: 4200
FO: 4600

Its all about money and lifestyle.

[Basil]

Think carefully before leaving an airline which you like anyway.

Bas - (Short version):
Merchant Navy: Resigned. Good decision
RAF: Resigned. Good decision.
Big Airline. 18yrs to command; stayed. Good decision.

If that sounds a bit self congratulatory it's because I missed out the bad decisions ;)

[neville_nobody]

And if you do go to Emirates drop the poor bugger me routine. In some countries with broad aviation industries (ie USA/Australia/NZ) it takes you 10 years to GET INTO an airline. So bitching that you have been a FO for 13 years after your first job was on a jet won't get alot of sympathy.........just a tip.:ok:

On saying that if you can handle the heat (literally!) it is all happening over at Qatar Airways if a smaller outfit is more your style. Shouldn't take to long to get a A320 command.

[Dream Land]

Try VietNam Airlines, upgrade possible in a year or so.

[macdo]

Only jump ship if your life is intolerable. Being on the bottom of a seniority list is not a happy place at the moment. But, if you really must, I'd look (with eyes wide open) at Emirates.

[cavortingcheetah]

Right now is not a good time to be either a saver or at the bottom of anyone's seniority list. If you're quite happy where you are, which you say you are, then button down the hatches and ride out the storm. It's going to take at least five years before economies really crank up again. In the meantime, the job's the thing. All those 70 pilots junior to you that your company will be letting go will be competing with you on the open job market too? If you don't jump ship, you've a chance of the LHS with your present company sometime and age might not be a consideration for them since you would be a known quantity.

[blind pew]

Did 20 years RHS, turned down command and flying a "royal" aircraft after 8 years.
Only flew in command for 2 years before I lost my medical but have been EXTREMELY well looked after by my last employer.
Whilst being a captain is easier than working in the RHS (and less fun) the important bit is life style and the people you work with.
Also very important is the effect on your family.
I left my first employer because I detested management - we crashed 8 aircraft in my six years - now that would be a good reason to leave!

[Meccano]

Try Hong Kong Airlines.
Fast growing company with A330's and a new A320 fleet starting in January.
Big growth plans. Permanent job. Decent place for a westerner to live.

[zeddb]

13 years?

I've been waiting for nearly 16 years and will probably wait a lot longer yet. Command is basically luck and timing (ability being taken as a given). An ill advised move, a couple of redundancies and you can easily spend your life in the RHS.

Don't move company to chase command. What is promised at an interview is exactly that, a promise and nothing more. If you enjoy your job then stay with it would be my advice. I moved once on the promise of the LHS and got made redundant instead. At the age of 50 with no LHS time and not enough hours on type to be considered by other operators and my "useful" ratings all out of recency. Not a nice position back then and probably fatal under the current circumstances

I consider myself lucky to have found another position that I enjoy with a reasonably enlightened employer. I hope to have a go on the other side of the flight deck before I retire but it may never happen. At least I can pay the bills in the meantime and have a home life that I don't spend totally prostrate with fatigue.

Just my experience. Others seem to breeze through and have commands everywhere they go. Good luck.:ugh:

[2EggOmelette]

I can certainly sympathise with you mate, its a long time indeed.

However Neville Nobody has a very valid point. In NZ and Aussie, it is often a long wait. A good mate of mine recently joined Jetstar in the right seat, well over 2000hours for that spot, took him 5 or so years to get there, and he was utterly committed to doing just that. In fact, i can't think of to many kiwis who have done it quicker.
Add to that your licence type, and well the world is your oyster so to say. For me to convert to JAA ill need to spend around $20,000NZ! That's cash I'm not likely to have for a while.:ugh: And i have 8 times as many hours as many Euro F/Os.

Just relax and be rational, do not be in a rush.

Or head out to Asia.

Good luck :ok:

[C212-100]

Meccano,

Any idea on the T&C Hong Kong Airlines is offering?

Cheers.

[AAIGUY]

I can't make this anymore clear.

Hong Kong Airlines has no, and never has had an approved program to upgrade FO's.

IF they tell you they are getting one, they are lying.


I make more part time @ Dragon than a Full Time skipper @ HKA by almost 50%.

No Upgrade, No money and living in one of the most expensive & polluted city's in the world. Only a fool would work there.

I was a fool once.. but left.

[Metro man]

Apply to Jetstar Asia in Singapore and you'll probably swap seats in a couple of years. Forget India as an F/O, they can't upgrade you. Lion Air Indonesia with it's recent massive B737 order would be worth a look. China is screaming for pilots.

At the moment the opportunities are in Asia and the Middle East.

[bestglide140]

Mate, don't move for a Seat!

in the heart of EUR I have after 4000+PIC hours ( 6yrs. or so) done exactly the Opposite! I moved RHS due to lack of weight&jet hours (flown ATR) into a legacy Operator and that was the best decision ever made!

But anyway being mentioned before, just my 2c.

[Pin Head]

done 6yrs as an fo with my present comapny and i reckon at least another ten to go.

[Slasher]

Just get the hell out of bloody Europe - you'll do your career
and stress level a whole lot of good not to mention your hip
pocket nerve. Plenty of smart Spanish Portugese Italian and
Greek drivers (and the odd pom) have already long done so.

Europe is stuffed - they know it - you know it - and it will just
continue to get even more stuffed while those unelected idiotic
clowns in Brussels consider debt leverage as the way to solve
its problems.

The Euro economy? I've seen sclerotic liver in better condition.

Lot of outfits in SEA if the Sandpit is not your style (who's is
it anyway?). Most blokes go to various mobs within the region
depending on their choice of country residence combined with
command prospects. No country or company is perfect but its
a whole lot better (& warmer in some cases) than where your
currently at.

And yep VAC and JSA should be on your radar. The M-Rats is
nobody's first choice anymore (they used to be) as is Saudi.
SIN has the minimum culture shock for you Eurojockeys, but
nowadays its a very bloody expensive place to live esp if you
have to fork out housing rent from your own wallet.

China is screaming for pilots.

Yep, that they are alright - and no prizes for guessing why so
many choose not to go there.

[macdo]

Slasher, I think, has summed it all up quite nicely!:D

[talias-sin]

Thank you all for your replies.

To Slasher:

What airline ( or country) do you mean with VAC ?
Vietnam Airlines?

JSA - Jetstar Asia ?

SIN - Singapore ?

Thank you

[Iver]

If you really want to leave, go where the growth is - the Middle East or Asia. With A330 time, you would have a good chance of getting A330 seat at Qatar. No promises but you can turn it down if they promise it and don't deliver. You might have to wait 4-5 years for a command since you don't have PIC time. Plus, if you apply in the April/May time frame, who knows, you might get a 787 FO slot (first 787 delivery in June). You never know...

If you go with the Middle East airlines, go with your eyes WIDE open. Let us know what you decide to do.

Good luck!

[Firestorm]

It's a bad time to be at the bottom of anybody's seniority list at a new airline, which is where you'll be if you leave now. if they offer redundancy that would be a slightly different situation, but if do leave be very sure of what you're going to get when you get there. Grass generally looks greener until you get up close. I speak as one who was made redundant, and has found how hard it can be to resurrect a career from the right hand seat. Wait for the command plus 1000 hours of you possibly can!

[Brix]

If I may give you one good piece of advice it is this: if you didn't grow up in the commonwealth educational system don't join an airline which is british managed (like CX, EK, EY).

Their authoritarian leadership style will threaten you for your existence on every day you go to work. No matter how many flight hours you have they will treat you as a schoolboy. It seems like they just don't want to leave the 19th century in terms of corporate governance.

I made the mistake a few years ago and it left me as a broken man, traumatized for ever.

[wakbaralwaker]

Brix:
I think I can see why you would say this but you miss an even worse example - QR.
Which of the three you mention did you work for?

[leondelfierro]

May i suggest COPA Airlines down in Panama?

[Slasher]

To Slasher:

What airline ( or country) do you mean with VAC ?
Vietnam Airlines?

JSA - Jetstar Asia ?

SIN - Singapore ?

Yep to all.

There's also AA in KL but I know for a fact you work your butt
off there. FOs are paid crap but capts on reasonable money.

AA = Air Asia......KL = Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia)


If you go with the Middle East airlines, go with your eyes WIDE open.


Look I won't argue one way or the other with the ME - if its
Jeddah or Sharma El - well maybe. But if its anywhere else
I'd spend at least a full bloody week at the nominal city of
basing prior to accepting any offers. UAE has "Etihad" and
probably worth looking at. Give the M-Rats a wide berth as
its no longer the great mob it used to be.

[atpcliff]

3 of my friends went to Qatar (A-320 pax), Air Hong Kong (747-400 cargo) and Eva (MD-11 cargo)....all as FOs.

On the other hand, I know a guy who is a long-time captain at US Airways, and he just applied to be an FO at Atlas Air (747s/767s).

I have been a Capt and an FO. I am an FO now, and this is BY FAR the best job I've ever had, and I also am making the most money now as FO.

cliff
HHN

[Narrow Runway]

If you want a quick Command, try Wizz Air.

It is still Europe and you can build some time whilst assessing all options.

They have a good history of upgrading guys quickly.

[Airbus_a321]

...and they have a lousy pay.

and it is NOT Europe it is FAR EAST Europe. Has nothing to do with good, old EUROPE. No Lifestyle, no nothing etc pp.
Just a place for desesperados.

[Le sok]

I know how it feels..
I spent 6 years in my first company and then it went bust.
So I moved to a UK company and I have to agree with Brix here, not fun at all to work for a UK management!
When I finally got the chance for an upgrade it was at a base far from my family. So I turned it down and moved company is back in the bottom of an seniority list as f/o, same place I was 12 years ago, same base... :ugh:
My point is, if you move you cannot be sure you will ever get the social life quality you properly have now.
Also you might have to spend a few years flying with commanders with half your experience (can be a bit annoying) and then not get an attractive upgrade.
I would wait for the financial crisses to pass before a move, maybe I do it as well then.

[Silver Spur]

@talias-sin:

Out of curiosity, did u try to contact Air Asia? Any reply at all?
I just applied for non-rated DEC on their web site. Just get an autoreply.

[varigflier]

I turned down command a year ago because of lifestyle. Many people say I am crazy but lifestyle for me is way more important than putting on the fourth stripe. My friends who upgraded now wish they would've done the same.

[Landflap]

You guys giving up the promotion for lifestyle, family life etc have made the right choices for the right reasons. Good Command decisions and you are worthy of your LHS. Pity it does not fit the overall picture. I bumped into a SFO for a large Yankee company in Paris, years ago. He was on DC10 (I think), based Paris, could write his own roster (years of Seniority & a bidding system). He had just been offered his LHS, finally, but it would be back to a rusty old 727, Based somewhere horrible in the USA, and as a Junior Captain.No bid. He chose to stay in La belle France. Good decision, eh ?

[KAG]

China is screaming for pilots.

yes but be aware of two things:

-They hire mainly local people (at least mainland, but HK is on its way too...)
-Many foreigners apply, but most of them fail either the sim interview, either the medical check.

[visualappr]

Artificial Horizon

I totally agree with DANI, 8 years in an airline is nothing and you would be crazy to move if you are happy with the airline in General. Being a Captain is not all it is cracked up to be, honestly I have seriously considered leaving my current gig to go back in the right hand seat for a bigger legacy carrier. Only real reason for the upgrade is better pay, but the responsibility that goes with it is enormous. Don't move purely for the command, the quality of the company is far more important.


3 years left hand seat now and couldn't agree more

[757_Driver]

Slight thread drift - but there is a point to this I promise!

I'm an ice hockey fan and have been watching "HBO NHL 24/7 - the road to the winter classic" which is a fly-on-the-wall documentary of the NY rangers and Philladelphia flyers as they appoach the winter-classic outdoor game in the new year.
One of the rangers has a young son, and was going on a road trip for 5 days to play a couple of away matches. Bear in mind, this is a guy that is the top of his sport, loves to play, has a lifestyle envied by millions, and probably earns a few bob aswell. He was saying how tough it is to be away from his young familiy when he is on the road and how much he misses them.

My point is that no matter who you are, where you go, what you achieve, most peoples priorties are the same - family, friends, lifestyle. Personally I would never look for a 4th stripe if it meant compromsiing my homelife. I don't care about status and what other people think about me, I care about my family and the time and quality of time I spend with them.

[cabbages]

757 driver......interesting post. Most pilots have egos the size of planets and, rightly or wrongly their status is important to them. In fact status is important to everyone regardless of occupation. We all need to feel valued . In my experience, career F/O's do not feel valued, they are typically frustrated and bitter, traits which get worse as they get older. Choosing the 'right' seat for lifestyle reasons might suit some for the short term but lets be honest , seeing a 50 year old / 60 year old first officer with 20,000 hours in the log book is a depressing sight.

[macdo]

Cabbages, your observation is sadly true, at least for those of us who have not reached the stage of self enlightenment where personal advancement has become irrelevant.:)
Seriously, though, its all very well taking that job in the back of beyond (or further, like NCL) but that pay rise and status are gonna look pretty thin when the divorce lawyers are finished with you. Stay away husband is rarely a sought after by wives, let alone children.

[757_Driver]

I guess its what suits the individual. The caveat to my post about 'not caring about status' is of course, dependent on where you work. some airlines treat their FO's with a lot more respect and trust than others!
And as macdo said about personal enlightenment, how I see myself and my status is far more important than how others see it. If I cared about how others viewed my status I would have become a banker and pasted a 20ft high copy of my bonus cheque on the front of the house, and got me a trophy blonde wife and a porsche! :E:E

Having had a previous career and having been in this industry for a while and seen the results of various career decisions that different people made, Personally I would prefer the right hand seat in a stable, career airline, with good t's and c's etc rather than bouncing from left hand seat to left hand seat in a succsession of dodgy here-one-minute-gone-the-next operators.
Some people obviously are in the right place at the right time and get direct entry commands to expanding airlines that turn out to be good bets. But then others jump from decent career airlines to take a command in a smaller less stable operator and then it all goes pete tong. And then what? a succession of short jobs, or back on the bottom of the list at a big airline?

Picking up on macdo's point, my wife is a divorce lawyer, and i'm pretty sure she's never had a client citing 'spouses job status' as grounds for divorce!
'spouse is never home','spouse never has time for me', 'spouse never sees the kids' however are right up there at the top of the list..

[Slasher]

But becoming a captain means an increase in pay - all things
being equal.

If you tripled my current salary and then offered 100% better
conditions than the ones I have right now, I'd be happy as a
pig in :mad: just being a FO on a washing machine.

[macdo]

Blimey, 757Driver, airline pilot married to divorce lawyer, talk about living life on the edge!:eek::eek::eek:

[757_Driver]

Blimey, 757Driver, airline pilot married to divorce lawyer, talk about living life on the edge!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

yeah, but what's life without a little risk!

[SassyPilotsWife]

Are you married ? If so, have you discussed this with your wife? Due to economic turndown and furloughs in the US, my husband began applying internationally with the potential that we might be living apart again. We had to do it when he was flying China 1 month on/off. If you love her and family is number 1, and you can afford life as an FO and not trying to move to the left for income potential only, make sure wherever you go, you can go together. Like my husband says.. " If mama ain't happy, no one's happy" A happy wife = a happy life. And when it comes to being married to a 50ish FO, here's my motto " seat and stripes don't matter when you're horizontal " :E As long as we're together, I could care less where we live. We chose the sand pit. What was important to us was the fact the ME is tax free for us.

It appears that you have a good life where you are but you're looking at what you " could " have. If all we do in life is look at what could be, we never get to enjoy what is already in front of us. Be thankful for now. Tomorrow's interview could be filled with empty promises. Be prepared to risk what you already have for what you may have not. Best of luck :)