Red Q - Dead in the water?

[IsDon]

Any truth to the rumour told to me by a nameless little bird that the great Asian experiment has fallen over at the first hurdle?

Supposedly QF can't find a bank gullible enough to give them the finance it needs to fund 110 A320s.

Also heard a certain ex B767 fleet manager has had his A320 conversion terminated as he is now surplus to requirements as the whole thing has fallen through. ;)

[mohikan]

Heard about the conversion being cancelled from two well placed sources over the last 48.

Wouldn't surprise me if it had fallen over. The whole idea was drug smoking of the highest order.

Personally I think it was just a smoke screen for moving the B744 or A380 fleet offshore. Other posters have noted Joyce's attitude in the media over the last seven days to be remarkably upbeat.

Perhaps Clifford and the board have green lighted the offshoring once FWA arbitrates the current disputes with AIPA, FWU and ALAEA.

[Keg]

I agree. RedQ was the front for a jet connect style operation based in SE Asia with them operating 787s in Qantas colors. They would have also been a raging success ontheir own branded flights because QF would have code shared with them on multitudes of flights to Europe. The catch is that QF would have paid a premium for 90% of the seats whether they were used or not and RedQ would have been declared an outstanding success while QF international continued to struggle- thus requiring more work to go offshore.

It's no shock if Qantas were having trouble finding someone to partner with them though. It's always been a dodgy call.

As to the Returnee, it was mentioned by a few at the revue last night but no reasons were proffered. Hopefully the 'tude' won't be present when he returns.

[gobbledock]

Possible reasons for this little project allegedly falling apart at the seams:

1) No bank wants to hold the amount of risk that the little man is wanting to borrow. They have worked out he is a fruitloop prone to rash decision making such as grounding an entire airline, and he also makes overnight decisions which include the fantasy of taking over Asia and building a global empire larger than Dr Evil's.
2) The banks have no money left to lend the little fella. They too have trashed their own organizations in the pursuit of pure greed and are now also reaping what they have sewn.

Maybe just maybe the piper has started playing for Team Joyce? Slowly slowly catch the monkey.

[DirectAnywhere]

Nothing would surprise me in this outfit.

A senior manager wrote that JG's little Asian sojourn was a great example of the opportunities that would open up for Qantas pilots.

So....leave QF as a fleet manager, piss off to Asia for six weeks, start a type endorsement, get screwed over by management incompetence and come home again, chastened and poorer for the experience. Yep, sounds like a typical QF 'opportunity'.:cool:

[theheadmaster]

So if the plan is falling apart, why are board members buying shares?

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Because when it is announced that it has "fallen apart", it will be the perfect opportunity to blame it on workers once again, with no option left but to transfer all remaining international operations to the orange star.

Was "RedQ" ever really a genuine proposition? Announced with no name, no location and pretty much no other information!

Perhaps this is all part of the script?

Just a hypothetical theory.

[onetrack]

Finance for equipment is definitely getting very hard to get. I have relatives who have large amounts of equipment involved in mining, and they are going gangbusters... but the banks and finance houses are all a bit jittery, scared of what is going to happen when the Euro and the PIIGS start to unravel, and scared of a double-dip recession in the U.S. The relatives say that getting the machines now is the relatively easy part - getting the finance is the hard part.

The financing of equipment was relatively easy in recent times, if you could show a satisfactory cash flow from the equipment. Now, the cost of borrowing worldwide is increasing, and additionally, funding (or willing funders, perhaps a better description) is actually in short supply. Many financiers look like losing a lot of money if the Euro scene gets a lot worse, very quickly.

However, in most cases, the manufacturers usually have an arrangement with a bank or financier, who provide finance for the products of the manufacturer.
There is always the deep concern that perhaps the aviation industry is going to suffer a slowdown, and that only the best propositions will get finance, if that is what is currently driving the financiers outlook.
In essence, equipment financing has been very easy, the last 5 years or more. The terms of financing are returning to the standards of 20 or 25 years ago, when it was a lot tougher to get finance.

[Oktas8]

So if the plan is falling apart, why are board members buying shares?

Because the current share price is undervalued by strict investment criteria. Provided Q survives at all, which it will, the share price is almost certain to go up.

If I was ever going to invest in an international airline, this would be a good time to buy.

[Bula]

Pinnacle seats have been asked to quote for a 2 class seating arrangement....... For Jetstar.

Make of that what you will. Perhaps jQ is looking for a way to increase the "Jetstar" group yield in Asia to protect itself should the Qantas group be broken up and sold as AJ claims. Why start up a new company when the flight can be crewed by current pilots?

Secondly, Airbus now does Finance in wake of the GFC.

[Sunfish]

Rumors of unavailable financing are consistent with a Global financial meltdown that I have been watching develop for the past Four years.

Julia Gillards mini budget in December is going to surprise many with its toughness.

My main concern now is what happens if there is a run on Australian Banks.


This is where the Qantas outsourcing wet dream comes unstuck. In a major recession, which is just around the corner, it is the cash costs in an organisation that suddenly start to matter, not the full costs.

In that scenario, having your own staff to do your maintenance is not as expensive in terms of cash cost as outsourcing, because your outsourcing charge is based on the contractors full cost.

In addition with your own in house maintenance, you may decide to make stuff rather than buy, or repair rather than buy new - if it saves cash.

If I am right, which is not often I suppose, fuel suppliers will be looking at the credit terms they give airlines by the end of this coming week.

[Andu]

Red Q - Dead in the water?I sincerely hope so. The name itself is indicative of how out of touch (or utterly foreign) Qantas senior management are, for Blind Freddie (another Australian reference those same people would not probably recognise) could tell you that it would have become universally known as "FarQ" to every Australian within weeks of starting operations.

[Bundy Bear]

Keep speculating gents, I'm willing to take bets on the outcome !

[DutchRoll]

This is simply not possible.

Alan Joyce was recently voted a big payrise because that's what was necessary to retain the highest quality executives. Ergo, he is brilliant and knows exactly what he is doing. :ok:

[Hey watch this...]

A week ago a 767 pulled up at a Melbourne gate. When the pax were off a flock of suits with cameras, laser levels and tape measures embarked and commenced frantically scoping the interior of the jet. When asked they replied it was confidential.

Head of QDS has been quoted as saying he has signed a contract to remodel the interiors of 20 767s for Qantas.

The 787 may not be able to save QF but the model Ts may.:ok:

[ohallen]

Well this seems about right for the way the place is run at the moment.

Make a major announcement with no detail, contracts in place, or even the barest of information such as place AND no finance in place whilst only focussing on "spin".

Then go and spend money on clapped out 767's while gifting real machines to the star performer of the group whilst the main money spinner languishes propped up by the goodwill of the staff as they are beaten mercilessly at every turn and told they are overpaid/out of date.

If the "stunt" at Melbourne was true, amateurish at best which seems about right.

[The The]

So if the plan is falling apart, why are board members buying shares?

There was/is a definite risk factor in the share price over the RedQ thing. It might pay off, but it is risky and may sink hundreds of millions for nothing.

Perhaps removing RedQ removes the risk.

Still no doubt international will continue to shrink, but there might be a substantial refocus on the domestic brand. it is after all the most profitable segment by a huge margin. It will continue to bring the most stable earnings.

Shareholders (including directors) like stability, and maybe even a dividend in the future.

I would say one thing for sure - if RedQ is dead, so is Joyce. His position would be totally untenable if his Qantas saving plan gets canned before it begins.

[Capt Kremin]

One thing I had learnt about Qantas up till now was that when they said they were going to do something, they usually had all the ducks lined up, and they did it.

Financial, operational, regulatory and government.... it was all done. That is what made the RedQ announcement so different. There were some of those parameters still seemingly not settled.

So why the rush to announce it if it is still not settled? It only ends up making Joyce and the board look very amateur. Something has not been right here and it is very unusual.

I can also confirm the 767's till 2020 rumor. Not that it will happen but very strong rumors. New interiors blah blah blah. It was something to do with the requirements for all the fleet to be ADSB equipped in a short time frame that spurred this on. Maybe other will know more.

[Hey watch this...]

Gate capacity would take a hit if the 787 replaced the 767 domestically in toto.

[Keg]

The 767s until 2020 has reportedly come from Strambi at one of his lunches. There has also recently been an acceleration in the painting of a number of 767s- about time considering that the 'new' livery was unveiled by Geoff Dixon in 2007! :eek: :ugh: An interior re-furb with the new product would go a long way to keeping the 'premium' passengers happy. Certainly in seat video screens for trans national flying is being viewed by the passengers as more and more a necessity so they either need to move on that in a hurry or the onboard wifi bizzo that will ensure people can use their own mobile devices to stream onboard entertainment.

[kotoyebe]

While we're on rumours....

This week I heard that as soon as the first lot of 3 class A380s are delivered, they are going in to get reconfigured........to 4 class!!!!

[engine out]

The fleet Captain will be welcomed back by management and probably promoted out of seniority to a better paying fleet.

[gobbledock]

The fleet Captain will be welcomed back by management and probably promoted out of seniority to a better paying fleet. Or welcomed back with loving arms into a 'consultancy' role? More money as a consultant than as a manager.

[Avid Aviator]

A senior manager wrote that JG's little Asian sojourn was a great example of the opportunities that would open up for Qantas pilots.

So....leave QF as a fleet manager, piss off to Asia for six weeks, start a type endorsement, get screwed over by management incompetence and come home again, chastened and poorer for the experience. Yep, sounds like a typical QF 'opportunity'.

Well said, Direct!

RE: Wifi, don't hold your breath. B767 trial on OGH is on hold due contractual issues, I'm told.

[Sunfish]

Why would you possibly refurb a B767?????? The things are too narrow to do a decent first class or business class. They were always too narrow from the start.

All QF's competitors have to do to beat them is operate wide body aircraft in competition.

[Going Boeing]

The B767's have always had more appeal to the passengers than the B737 so if management are keeping them until 2020, then a full cabin refurb with the latest standard of seating and IFE is essential. It might be worth looking at blended winglets again to reduce the fuel burn - this may cause a few issues at some of the domestic bays though.

[Hey watch this...]

Of course JG will get an out-of-seniority promotion. Can you imagine the tension on any 76 flight deck he was to... oh yeah, command. Look what happened to the previous 76 fleet manager, DT. He got videoed on the bonnet of someones car with an office girl and now he is on the 380 and a company EA negotiator. He's a latter day Lord Flashart. Whoof!

[hewlett]

He got videoed on the bonnet of someones car with an office girl

And your problem is.......?:ok:

[V-Jet]

I guess the problem or irony is that the girl with the intimate knowledge of the carpark in question was part of the 'new' Qantas that was making extraordinary efforts to engage its workforce as it was impossible for things to continue as badly as they were.

After being told that we had all heard this nonsense from overpaid incompetent magagers before and that nothing would change she argued vehemently we just didnt understand how seriously the company wanted to change and that we were very wrong to be so cynical and mistrusting.

She was, in the end correct and we were wrong!

After being done over by the pilot in question she was done over by management when she lost her job very shortly afterwards. None of us really expected THAT to happen!

I do know she found the Qf culture quite loathsome - and that was before most people realised there was a major problem:)

[teresa green]

Gee how things have changed, in our day we at least got in the car in the carpark, if we were going to commit a act of well, you know. That carpark could tell some stories and then some.:E

[2Plus]

Again, on the topic of rumours...I hear ALL of the 767s are for sale. The only reason I think this mob would be considering refurbing the 767s is for a little detailing and upgrade before they're sold off. I mean, why else would OGV, the flashest of the fleet, be confirmed to be up for sale. Go figure.

Hey, anyone know anyone with an aircraft leasing business who might want 'em? :suspect:

[gobbledock]

Forget the carpark, if you can manage a 'Gone In 60 Seconds' act then an aerobridge after last flight and before the Gingerbeers jump onboard does the trick!

[Jethro Gibbs]

The aircraft they grounded at Avalon are being worked on now.:ok:

[BrissySparkyCoit]

I mean, why else would OGV, the flashest of the fleet, be confirmed to be up for sale.

Because it's FADEC. Odd one out.

[tmadam]

Strambi on 767 plans from Aust Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/first-australian-boeing-787-dreamliner-due-mid-2013-says-qantas)

Jetstar will be the first Australian airline to fly the 787, from the middle of 2013, ... and as each 787 arrives Jetstar will hand its Airbus A330s over to Qantas for domestic use (in turn, Qantas will retire its aging and less fuel-efficient Boeing 767s).
“Internationally Jetstar needs the 787 in the short term and Qantas domestic needs it in the long term” Strambi says, “so in the longer term we have the option to swing the 787-8 back into the domestic space when we retire the A330 fleet.”

[ampclamp]

red Q may or may not be a goer now.Who knows?

The Red Q news when released was used as an industrial tactic imho to bolster the 'were going broke internationally' sob story.

I have no issue with expansion into Asia IF it is done conservatively without hubris and the with very good partners. Those relationships are hard won.

Same for Jetstar.No problem. Qantas need jetstar as a foil to other entrants. But the use of it as a wedge to use against its employees is the ugly part.

[Conductor]

Qantas sticks with Asia's well-heeled (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-keeps-focus-on-asia-20111207-1oicv.html)


Chinese visitors are pouring into Australia. And we know that Chinese travellers rate prestige brands and safety as among their top travel priorities.

Right, so to capitalise on that Qantas is going to continue to cripple its premium brand and focus on the cheap brand.


Qantas now favours setting up a base for a premium airline in Malaysia’s capital Kuala Lumpur, partly due to the fact it will involve less capital investment

Right, so Qantas has just decided to change its mind has it? Do they actually have a plan?


And we are increasingly getting invitations from potential Asian partners to bring our aviation expertise in both premium and low-fares airlines into this exciting marketplace.

Oh give me a break. :ugh: This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time.

[Keg]

Chinese visitors are 'pouring into Australia' and what do we offer them? Daily from Shanghai to Sydney and that's it. (I don't classify Hong Kong SAR as 'China' per se).How about Beijing? How about other Australian cities?

I also like the fact that despite 90 years of tradition and excellence, they have 'two great airline brands in Qantas and Jetstar' despite J* being a no frills carrier less than a decade old. :rolleyes:

Perhaps with this tie up with MAS though we may finally return to KL.

[Sunfish]

Alan is "Convinced" Qantas has a big future in Asia.


QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce is convinced the future of travel in Asia, the world's fastest-growing market, is as much about premium airlines as budget carriers.

A week after he quashed speculation that Qantas was about to walk away from plans to set up a premium airline in south-east Asia, Mr Joyce told a conference in Sydney yesterday that within two decades 16 per cent of the world's middle class would be in east Asia.

''We are convinced the future of Asia is not just about low-fare airline travel,'' he said.

''Chinese visitors are pouring into Australia. And we know that Chinese travellers rate prestige brands and safety as among their top travel priorities.''

His comments came as China Southern's president, Tan Wan'geng, told a gathering on the Gold Coast that Australia was a ''focal point'' for the airline's global operations.

..........

Mr Joyce said the demand for high-end travel was why a cornerstone of Qantas' international strategy was to tap into the forecast growth in intra-Asia travel at the premium end of the market.

''Whatever happens in financial markets over the coming weeks and months, we know that Asia will continue to play a larger part in the global economy and a bigger role in the world,'' he said.

Although it remains in talks with authorities in Singapore, Qantas favours setting up a base for a premium airline in Kuala Lumpur as it will involve less capital investment.

Central to whether its plans get off the ground will be talks with Malaysia Airlines and Tony Fernandes, the boss of AirAsia, about forging deeper alliances and launching a new carrier.

''We are increasingly getting invitations from potential Asian partners to bring our aviation expertise in both premium and low-fares airlines into this exciting marketplace,'' Mr Joyce said.

............................

Mr Joyce again apologised for the impact on the tourism sector of his decision to ground Qantas' domestic and international fleet on October 29 but said that it ''was the only way to bring to an end to industrial action''.

...................................

Read more: Qantas | Asia | Alan Joyce (http://www.theage.com.au/business/joyces-way-to-grow-in-asia-20111207-1oj6h.html#ixzz1fsRb4oWg)


You just don't get it do you Alan?

I said in an earlier post that any profits from such an operation are going to be made by Asians and stay in Asia. Should you, by some stretch of the imagination, succeed in building some operation that turns out to be wildly profitable you will be seen in China as just another Western speculator taking advantage of the Chinese people.

The consequences of that Alan should by now be very plain to you; put simply, the Chinese will take your operation from you.

They will do it like the Vietnamese did and take it over:

Vietnam Airlines to absorb budget carrier Jetstar - Economy - VietNam News (http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/Economy/218405/vietnam-airlines-to-absorb-budget-carrier-jetstar.html)

They will jail your employees:

Vietnam arrests ex-airline CEO and investigates others - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/01/08/vietnam.airline.investigation/index.html)

Or they will wait till they get their hand on you and throw you in the clink until you sell your baby back to them. Both of these business people turned a Chinese sows ear into a silk purse. This is how they were rewarded:

China jails Australian businessman for 13 years | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/china-jails-australian-businessman-for-13-years/story-e6frf7jo-1226215540953)

Australian businesswoman falls foul of China's legal system (http://www.smh.com.au/world/australian-businesswoman-falls-foul-of-chinas-legal-system-20110822-1j6ve.html)


You don't understand do you Alan? China feels it has been exploited for Three hundred years by the Western World - read about the opium wars. Any Western business that thinks it is going to drag large profits out of China these days is seen and treated as an exploiter of the people and treated accordingly.

Your only hope is to pay off the Chinese (illegal under Australian law) or form a joint venture where you take all the risk and the Chinese "partners" come along for the ride.

However in either case you are not going to be repatriating bags of Chinese gold to the waiting Qantas shareholders - you simply will not be allowed.

[denabol]

Looks like the Malaysians aren't the slightest bit interested.

Qantas ignored in new Malaysia Airlines strategies | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/08/q-who-malaysia-airlines-announces-new-strategies-without-mentioning-qantas-once/)


There was a press conference in Kuala Lumpur yesterday in which Malaysia Airlines announced major strategic moves, during which some of those present can’t recall Qantas being mentioned even once.
There is going to be full Malaysia Airlines membership of the Oneworld alliance in the second half of next year, there is going to be a new Malaysia Airlines owned unnamed premium regional brand operating Boeing 737-800s, there are going to be new synergies between Malaysia Airlines and Air Asia and its ‘X’ branded low cost long rangers, and …. no-one said a word about Qantas.
Yet Qantas has ordered or optioned up to 110 Airbus A320s specifically for its grand Asia plans.
Caution: No-one said a word about Qantas within earshot of some of those who reported the news extensively in Malaysia and SE Asia and China. It is possible that the assembled management identities from both Malaysia flag carriers held a special love-in during which they pledged their gratitude and loyalty to Qantas for offering to teach them how to do a premium Asia based carrier and be hugely successful flying to London (oops!) and confirmed that they couldn’t wait to give away part of that new business success to a Qantas sham pretending to be a Malaysia flag carrier set up to channel money to a Qantas long haul operation that through no fault of their own is going down the toilet.
But if they did, it hasn’t seen daylight yet.

[73to91]

Chinese visitors are 'pouring into Australia' and what do we offer them? Daily from Shanghai to Sydney and that's it.
pouring in is correct, looking at International Airline Activity - Monthly Publications (http://www.btre.gov.au/info.aspx?ResourceId=211&NodeId=103) and the last 3 months available (Jul to Sept) and QF are killing it :rolleyes:

Not including HK or Taiwan, Air China, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines & Hainan Airlines:
Carried 49,492 pax on 232 flights in Jul v QF's 8,054 pax (16%) on 31 flights,
Carried 42,780 pax on 226 flights in Aug v QF's 5,345 pax (12%) on 30 flights and
Carried 41,551 pax on 227 flights in Sep v QF's 5,718 pax (14%) on 27 flights.

[Sunfish]

Alan doesn't even understand that he has no leverage.

He doesn't understand that he doesn't have the relationships either.

- Do you stay up drinking brandy with the Chinese till 4.00am?

- Do you help their kids come and study in Australia, keep an eye on them and bail them out if they get into trouble?

- Do you help their extended family and friends with "Immigration" matters?

- Do you wine and dine them as a family in your own home when they visit Australia?

- Do you "facilitate" a little foreign exchange movement for them?

- Do you have several of your executives and Board members doing this on a daily basis?

- Have you trained a raft of senior Qantas executives who are fluent in Mandarin and Cantonese?

- Do you have the brains to sort out the "main chancers" (ie: "My uncle is a Politburo member") from the genuine article?

Do you persevere at this for Five to Seven years while they decide if you are genuine or not?

Sadly no. The Chinese will then rightly decide that you are just another western get rich quick merchant and you will be treated accordingly.

[limelight]

Just to top it off, here is the latest from Ben, via Crikey.

Will Qantas account to shareholders for the failure of its Jetstar Pacific venture, or just pretend it isn’t so? (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/08/will-qantas-account-to-shareholders-for-failure-of-its-jetstar-pacific-venture-or-just-pretend-it-isnt-so/)

December 8, 2011 – 8:51 am, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)

This report (http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/Economy/218405/vietnam-airlines-to-absorb-budget-carrier-jetstar.html) from Vietnam on the fate of Jetstar Pacific comes from a government controlled news agency. It tells us the Jetstar Pacific franchise 27% owned by Qantas is finished.
It requires answers from Jetstar or its owner Qantas, preferably before the stock market opens.
Is this really the end of the Jetstar franchise in Vietnam? How much money has Qantas burned in this sorry little investment? What can it recover in the way of tangible assets, that is, fleet? Or has it done every last cent it ever spent on the venture?
There are as always larger issues here, starting with the capabilities of the Qantas management to successfully do business in Asia.
No-one needs convincing that Asia is going to be an incredible source of growth in air travel.
But does Qantas really believe that in Asia the national competitors are going to shift to one side to make room for an Australian controlled entity masquerading as an Asian flag carrier with the express purpose of subsidising Qantas Australia operations that are so badly run they are uncompetitive?
“Hello, we’re from Qantas, and we want to take away part of your boom” is perhaps not the best way to go about things.
Especially if the Asian states that see a sucker on sight know that saying “Yes, come on in, but we’re going to set up our little harmless venture in Australia to fly the Pacific or non-stop to London in 10 years time” means the same as “Sure. But we’re going to kill you in return.”

[dragon man]

This will be blamed upon those terrible Australian unions (AIPA,TWU,ALAEA) of course. If not then the GFC mark 2. For keeping it out of the mainline press and not letting management cop the blame AJ will receive a massive bonus.Thank goodness we have such great management, this along with saving us from falling into the trap of having those terrible 777s. :D

[Short_Circuit]

QANTAS get off your ass and put those 6, 747-400 about to be scraped, the 767 about to be scraped or lease some 777's, onto some new/more Premium QF China slots.

That advise you can have for free..

If the future is China as you say, well FFS, F-L-Y there! (and back as QF) :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ampclamp]

Short circuit.. you obviously have no idea about running an airline :E

More seriously, I am amazed at those China numbers posted. Sadly we're not even trying. Reason...why build it up when you want to get rid of it.

[Popgun]

Sunfish is bang on the money yet again.

The complete lack of understanding of the rules of the game by QF management is just embarrassing.

Embarrassing in the same way where you pretend you're not Australian in some far flung bar on the other side of the world when a group of loud, Aussie bogans arrive to give us all a bad name...

PG

[Short_Circuit]

Short circuit.. you obviously have no idea about running an airlineRunning an airline, sadly no and I do not get paid $3,000.00 per hour (plus share options that could make 5 times that) like AJ who can't either., but I see all those Chinese Airlines landing in Sydney chockers and wonder why?
Why don't QF put some capacity into & out off China, old 744, 763,new 777 or what ever. There is at least one day a week where 90% of aircraft parked at SIT are Chinese.
Why invest BILLIONS of QF reserves in a minority joint venture with mythical A320 long range A/C, when current equipment could be deployed to "The Growth Area" of aviation ie China and bring it to Oz. :confused:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I think Olivia might regret this one in the future..... Listen to how she avoids the question regarding bankruptcy then second time round says "absolutely not" then doesn't answer the question again....

Qantas denies Jetstar Pacific merger talk - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-08/qantas-jetstar-pacific-merger-talk/3720874)

[Big M]

Oh dear,

If she says "we're committed" one more time - she should be committed.
Used that one about a thousand times.
Used "going forward" about a hundred times.

I think I might become the head of "corporate communications" for someone.
Doesn't seem that hard.

:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Not too bad for OW, only used 'committed' 11 times in 3min 20 secs. Her 'going forward' count is increasing though....:}

[TIMA9X]

I think Olivia might regret this one in the futureI agree, her responses were downright awful.

This will be blamed upon those terrible Australian unions (AIPA,TWU,ALAEA) of course. If not then the GFC mark 2.I think people are beginning to see through the mess AJ & OW have created for themselves and the image they set for Qantas.


for example, AJ has made the news again for all the wrong reasons...he managed to score himself a spot on the Looking back "big news events for 2011" 7.30s Clarke and Dawe, it's only a little snippet (about 2.08 in) but would have raised a chuckle with many who saw it and will stick in their minds well into next year.

q8wa06fjIeI

It will come back to haunt AJ and OW as this Jetstar Pacific story grows. I am beginning to think 2012 will be tough for the both of them.

[73to91]

More seriously, I am amazed at those China numbers posted. Sadly we're not even trying.
and here's the numbers for HKG:
Cathay 72,884 pax on 303 flights in Jul v QF's 22,829 pax (24%) on 83 flights,

Cathay 56,971 pax on 309 flights in Aug v QF's 15,728 pax (22%) on 81 flights,

Cathay 61,905 pax on 305 flights in Sep v QF's 18,479 pax (23%) on 78 flights,

Then there's China Airlines into Taiwan 21,261 pax for the 3 months on 92 flights in competition with?

Yep, they are not even trying.

[Capt Kremin]

Trying would mean growing mainline.

[mohikan]

One of the real problems AJ / OW / LC now face is that incompetent management actions that previously would have sailed beneath the mainstream media interest threshold are now being picked up.

A good example is JQ Asia. It has only every made money recently because of a 'favourable' leasing deal with JQ. Overall it has cost the group 100's of millions of dollars. This fact has surfaced during media coverage of the dispute.

JQP is the more recent example. Now nationalised by the Vietnamese government, another 200M or so pi$$ed away. Under Dixon's reign that would have gone unnoticed - now OW has had to try and spin her way out of it, and she is in real trouble.

Most financial journalists are now aware of the true nature of QF management decisions - driven by greed, lies, ego, hubris and an ideological hatred of the workforce.

Its only iPads, Grange and Chairmans Lounge that are semi keeping a lid on things. At some point though this will change. There is a tipping point, and we are really close to it.

AIPA needs to keep the pressure on. Good to see Woody in the media last night doing just that

[gobbledock]

Sunfish, I hope you don't mind me answering those very well apportioned questions in a truthful fashion on behalf of the narcissists!!

Do you stay up drinking brandy with the Chinese till 4.00am?No. The 'QF' heirachy prefer to sip green tea and hit the fluffy floral patterened pillow by 2100.

- Do you help their kids come and study in Australia, keep an eye on them and bail them out if they get into trouble?No. Due to the 'personal' preferences of many QF power players we will will never procreate, a physical impossibility by any medical measure. We do not fully understand the Chinese culture and are too selfish to take on the extra favors required.

- Do you help their extended family and friends with "Immigration" matters? No. QF executives think of only our own greedy sordid little lives, and have no concept, care or the patience to be constantly helping our counterparts with 'immigration matters'.

- Do you wine and dine them as a family in your own home when they visit Australia? No. Bit hard to do that when you are prancing around the cross wearing lederhosen and partying to George Michael and Bronski Beat tunes!

- Do you "facilitate" a little foreign exchange movement for them? No. That is not an Australian business requirement so how does that fit in with our plans??

- Do you have several of your executives and Board members doing this on a daily basis? Oh yes Mr Sunfish, we tried that in Vietnam, it was a success, we know how Asians think. We even have an ex baggage handler running things up there in Vietnam, so China will be a walk in the park.

- Have you trained a raft of senior Qantas executives who are fluent in Mandarin and Cantonese? No. Why would we do that? Dont the Chinese want to speak to me? We are good though, Kevin Rudd will help us out if we need it.

- Do you have the brains to sort out the "main chancers" (ie: "My uncle is a Politburo member") from the genuine article? No. We at Qantas believe in open and transparent dealings. We have not been advised of any matter involving chancers, and we think you are confusing political agenda with business, something QF does not believe is an issue in China.

Do you persevere at this for Five to Seven years while they decide if you are genuine or not? No. Certainly not. We believe in 'trust at first sight'. The Chinese will see our integrity very early in the peace and we do not feel they will question our western integrity at any stage of the venture. We are a western organisation and the need to plan ahead is ludicrous. Seven years is an eternity, we will educate our Chinese partners.

On a more serious note-
the Jetstar Pacific franchise 27% owned by Qantas is finished. This is an inevitable conclusion in the Asian game. Asians will not allow any western enterprise to enter it's region and either make them look foolish, take profits outside of THEIR country, or undertake any activity that makes THEM lose money. This is not a swipe at Asia, it is an accurate description of doing business Asian style.

Let me be more blunt, and I do not meen to offend anybody by my comment, it is merely a fact - If certain QF individuals think for one minute that Asia will embrace, respect or give a general fu#k about any QF executive who is barely out of nappies, lived in a sheltered airline workshop, is queer, has yet to prove himself/herself as actually being a successful money churning business person plus has absolute concrete ties and influential powers at the most highest level of political and business circles then it is 'all over red rover'. This 'project' has been doomed from the moment it was concocted in someone's fantasy during their REM hours of sleep.

Investor beware !! The golden path to China is littered with the skeletons of many cloud cuckoo land contestants. To be sure....

[Worrals in the wilds]

This is an inevitable conclusion in the Asian game. Asians will not allow any western enterprise to enter its region and either make them look foolish, take profits outside of THEIR country, or undertake any activity that makes THEM lose money. This is not a swipe at Asia, it is an accurate description of doing business Asian style.
I wish our government/business 'leaders' did a bit more of that. At the moment you get the feeling that the whole country's listed on eBay as either a single job lot or parts... whatever the buyer prefers:sad:.

Of course, it's good for the shareholders. :yuk:

[ohallen]

Given the passage of time since the AGM, isnt it about time that the Rat was put to task to reveal the details behind its plans and if they cannot do this, then have them exposed for the lack of progress.

Where are the good investigative journalists when they have a story begging to be told.

I dont include the most vocal commentators in that group.

[ampclamp]

Shorty I do hope you understand I was agreeing with you. Sometimes intent is hard to convey in a forum or blog:) You make good points.

[MACH082]

It appears Qantas must have hired the ex CASA regulatory reform experts to manage and launch their new RedQ carrier.

I'd say you'll be waiting a long time to see or hear any announcements.

IMO this whole affair was launched to scare the crap out of the employees during an industrial dispute.

The easy way out of this is the catch phrase 'economic uncertainty'

Ter be sure Ter be sure :cool:

[OneDotLow]

Where is JG?

...who cares!?

Rumour has it he is sitting in an office in QCA waiting for 'redeployment'.

[IsDon]

Where is JG?

...who cares!?

Rumour has it he is sitting in an office in QCA waiting for 'redeployment'.

At least he'll have plenty of time to concentrate on his eBay auctions.

[Short_Circuit]

Amp
Shorty I do hope you understand I was agreeing with you.
Yep, understood, it was a foot in the door chance to vent at QF mismanagement a little more. :ok:

[ampclamp]

Shorty , glad we are on the same wavelength. Just wanted to clarify my post and express my support.

[73to91]

QANTAS is still in talks regarding the establishment of a premium Asian airline.



Speaking to investors today, chief executive Alan Joyce said Qantas was working to return its international operations to profitability.

"We have announced our plans to invest in a premium airline based in Asia,'' he said.

"Talks continue, and it remains premature to make any announcements at this stage.

"Our aim is to position ourselves within the South East Asian marketplace in advance of planned aviation liberalisation.''

Within five years, Qantas planned to have a hub in Asia feeding traffic into the Qantas and Jetstar networks, Mr Joyce said.

"In five years time, and always, the Qantas Group will call Australia home, but increasingly we will be an efficient, multi-brand enterprise that is a flagship for Australian expertise and quality around the world,'' he said.

Mr Joyce again defended the airline's decision to ground its fleet in reaction to disputes with three unions, saying it had brought about an end to industrial action.

"We are confident that the industrial outcomes will be reasonable and will exclude the extreme claims that would have threatened our capacity to make the necessary transformation of our international business,'' Mr Joyce said.



Read more: Qantas still planning Asian airline | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/qantas-still-planning-asian-airline/story-e6frfkur-1226219654205#ixzz1gHWkoweo)


But this is funnier.

Qantas nationalised. Public servant appointed as CEO on $38,000 still manages to run company at a loss

Read more: Headlines you may see in 2012 (http://www.smh.com.au/business/headlines-you-may-see-in-2012-20111209-1omd1.html#ixzz1gHahtFVd)

[73to91]

Qantas executives reiterated yesterday that talks were continuing about setting up an ultra-premium airline in south-east Asia.

Read more: Qantas dispute to drag on until June (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-dispute-to-drag-on-until-june-20111212-1orbt.html#ixzz1gM8dcH5B)

Ultra-premium :ooh: had not seen it described this way before, pretty scary that the current management could go this way, have any of them got the necessary experience, knowledge, understanding ? not when you look at the product they currently deliver.



Ultra: definition - extreme or extremely
ultra-expensive
ultra-modern architecture
ultra-sensitive
an ultra-short haircut

(Definition of ultra- prefix from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/) © Cambridge University Press)



Premium: definition - an amount which is more than usual
We're willing to pay a premium for the best location.
Because of their location, these offices attract a premium.

Definition of premium noun (EXTRA) from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/) © Cambridge University Press)

[skybed]

according to AJ latest presentation (ASX)there will be only 9 747 left in 2013.
looks like the rest goes to asia.:sad:

[73to91]

JetStar Hong Kong perhaps!!

Hainan Airlines and Qantas watch-updated (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/10/hainan-airlines-and-qantas-watch-updated/)

December 10, 2011 – 7:42 am, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)



As recommended several times recently, keep a sharp eye on the activities of HNA Group and its airlines in particular Hainan Airlines and Hong Kong Express because of the strong interest in them shown by Qantas and Jetstar.

The latest development is a code sharing and points exchange deal between Hainan Airlines and American Airlines, which wouldn’t really be news in Australia were it not for the Qantas fascination with them, the fact that Hainan is reported to be keen on getting into Oneworld, and that Cathay Pacific is currently exhibiting paranoia as to all things HNA, its two Hong Kong based airlines in particular, its alliance ambitions and the ‘risk’ that Hong Kong Express might be rebranded Jetstar Hong Kong.

Although it has in the past been denied by Cathay Pacific, rumors that it would decamp Oneworld for the Star Alliance if Hainan muscles in on the club continue to circulate, no doubt because they have the force of compelling logic.

Let’s get a little bit ahead of ourselves here. Imagine for a moment just how more potent the Star Alliance would be in the Asia Pacific if both Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines were in it, and of course, how exciting that might be for those excited by such things if Virgin Australia also entered Star.

Just one of those Saturday morning surmises!

[gobbledock]

JetStar Hong Kong perhaps!! Sure, why not.

according to AJ latest presentation (ASX)there will be only 9 747 left in 2013.
looks like the rest goes to asia.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif Yeah well at the rate he is going, along with the company direction combined with a world economy that is literally collapsing in front of our eyes there will be no planes, no fleet to downsize and no airline in 3 years. But of course there will be a bunch of rogue managers who will have long since retired to Club Cloud Cuckoo Land with enough cash to see out their pathetic lives! (unless of course all fiat money collapses as well as most if not all of the world's banks along with a smattering of countries, thus leaving the former airline managers with nothing more than they started out life with - a naked ass and nothing else!) Bravo bravo....

[Sunfish]

The Qantas business strategy is now getting surreal.

There seems to be assumption piled on assumption.

This is not good.

[TIMA9X]

But of course there will be a bunch of rogue managers who will have long since retired to Club Cloud Cuckoo Land with enough cash to see out their pathetic lives! (unless of course all fiat money collapses as well as most if not all of the world's banks along with a smattering of countries, thus leaving the former airline managers with nothing more than they started out life with - a naked ass and nothing else!) Bravo bravo.... Oh Yes,

The Qantas business strategy is now getting surreal.

There seems to be assumption piled on assumption.

This is not good. OH Yes and Yes......

Qantas nationalised. Public servant appointed as CEO on $38,000 still manages to run company at a losssays it all really...

I hope you enjoy the finished version of my current video project, dedicated to all on here, and the Qantas staff who in my view, have to endure a dysfunctional management team, who appear to be outdated, clueless, directionless and seem only interested in their own back pocket wallet space....... so sad..



Merry Christmas Mr Joyce.....

.sc2h_kA7mfU

ps; I would like to thank all involved in the production of this video, donating their talent and time to support the pilots, engineers, cabin crew & staff at Q.

The force is with you..... and please share it around, I think it has a strong message that the punters will relate too.

:ok:
.

[stubby jumbo]

Qantas staff who in my view, have to endure a dysfunctional management team, who appear to be outdated, clueless, directionless and seem only interested in their own back pocket wallet space....... so sad..

Great effort TIMA9X......well done.:D

You're right....... Keep the Faith. We'll all be around long after these dopes have been punted.

[73to91]

Malaysia better for Qantas Asian hub

Qantas should look at Malaysia over Singapore as a base for its joint venture premium airline in Asia if it is serious about cost saving and avoiding wasteful competition AirAsia chief Tony Fernandes said this week.

Currently in talks with Qantas and Malaysian Airlines over a three way alliance, Mr Fernandes spoke to The Australian Financial Review about the positives in Qantas choosing Malaysia for its Asian hub, outlining connectivity as the key.

"Singapore is the better business hub for sure, but the majority of Singapore traffic is transit traffic -- just like Dubai," Mr Fernandes said.

Qantas chief Alan Joyce announced the airline’s plans to reposition itself in the industry’s fastest growing region in advance of planned aviation liberalisation, with a five year forecast to have a hub in Asia feeding traffic into Qantas and budget airline Jetstar's networks.

Factors like the uncertainty over global economic conditions and volatile fuel prices have put talks on the backburner temporarily, but the airline was still considering Kuala Lumpur and Singapore as the most likely potential bases.

Former music industry executive Fernandes built AirAsia into one of the industry’s biggest success stories, reviving the airline to turn it into Asia's biggest budget carrier.

Malaysia better for Qantas Asian hub - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/126652/malaysia-better-for-qantas-asian-hub)

[teresa green]

Those that watched New Agenda tonight on Sky with David Speers interviewing Keating, would have been delighted at the backhander the master of put downs gave Joyce. He basically said, after Joyce pulled the switch on the closure of the company, that the unions should have sat on their hands and ordered the workers to do just that. He said that Joyce would suddenly find himself without anything, even if it took a couple of weeks, and nobody turned up, the shareholders would then have shafted him. He did not say how the workers would live during this time, but I guess for many it would be worth getting into any savings if they had to. No doubt this interview will be played tomorrow, but that is basically the gist of it. More than worth watching. He is still a cunning old bastard.

[73to91]

Loss-making national carrier Malaysia Airlines said it will cut eight routes to Europe, Africa, the Middle East and other destinations starting next month as it seeks to return to a profit.

....................


"Concurrently, Malaysia Airlines will focus on the core (Southeast Asia) region, South Asia, greater China and North Asia, where the demand outlook is strong, fuelled by a burgeoning middle class," the statement said.


Read more: Malaysia Airlines slashes routes in effort to cut costs (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/malaysia-airlines-slashes-routes-in-effort-to-cut-costs-20111216-1oxn8.html#ixzz1gevhUd6W)


So, is there a tie in with QF?
Will there be a Red Q? or
Will Red Q have to compete with an established carrier out of KL ?

[TIMA9X]

So, is there a tie in with QF?
Will there be a Red Q? or
Will Red Q have to compete with an established carrier out of KL ?
Yeah, it's the blind leading the blind, meanwhile the question is,
have the QF management taken their eye off the ball back here in its Australian market.....?

I say they have, and it will take a long time to repair contrary to what AJ says, "only a short term thing...... " :ugh:

http://www.roymorganonlinestore.com/Images/News/article-1521---image-1---modified-size-%28HS%29.aspx

Jane Ianniello, Roy Morgan Research International Director of Tourism, Travel & Leisure, says: “Qantas domestic customer satisfaction has fallen in October after grounding all its planes for days and causing major disruptions for 100,000 Australian air travellers. Although Qantas still has a small lead over Virgin Australia the gap is likely to close further in the coming months.

“The satisfaction rating for Virgin Australia fell in late September 2010 amongst both its leisure and business customers after their reservation and check-in system failed, affecting approximately 50,000 customers. Virgin Australia’s satisfaction rating has improved since then, and is likely to rise further with its quick response in putting on more flights during the Qantas industrial dispute.”

Press Release: Virgin Australia closing the gap on Qantas for Domestic Airline Satisfaction (http://www.prwire.com.au/pr/26547/virgin-australia-closing-the-gap-on-qantas-for-domestic-airline-satisfaction)

[Sunfish]

One of the huge problems involved in a running a "group" operation - which often kills it, is the question of "playing favourites" between various members of the group.

This does at least Two things - it biases managers towards diverting resources towards the current favourite, - it destroys morale and performance among the parts of the group that aren't in favour.

The current poster child in Qantas is Jetstar and its overseas subsidiaries.

Qantas International is totally unloved. Qantas domestic is stuck somewhere in the middle. The effect on morale is predictable.

What then happens is that all middle management decisions get biased in favour of what the Board and senior management wants to hear. Hard nosed business management therefore takes a back seat to beauty contests.

Been there done that as a former "Group General Manager" in another industry myself. I was not doing what was best for the company, i was doing the best I could for me and my group. So were the other group General Managers.

[73to91]

Please explain ‘Malaysianisation’ of Qantas, pilots demand (http://www.eglobaltravelmedia.com.au/airline/please-explain-malaysianisation-of-qantas-pilots-demand.html)


The Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) is calling on Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce to explain comments by AirAsia chief Tony Fernandes, who mentioned the “Malaysianisation” of Qantas.

Fernandes told the Australian Financial Review that Qantas would be better off basing its Asian operations in Malaysia than Singapore, if it goes ahead with the premium carrier it plans to set up in the region. See our earlier story: KL makes sense as Qantas hub says AirAsia chief.

Fernandes, who has been referred to as ‘the Richard Branson of Asia’, told the paper that a Qantas operation based in Kuala Lumpur would be the wiser choice.

Now, the pilots want to know what Fernandes meant by a reference to the “Malaysianisation” of Qantas.

AIPA says Fernandes’ remarks follow “the apparent collapse of Mr Joyce’s ambitions to divert Qantas Group resources to a new so-called ‘Red Q’ airline in Singapore”.

AIPA vice president Captain Richard Woodward says Joyce has an obligation to tell the Australian public honestly what he is planning to do with Qantas in Malaysia.

“Mr Fernandes may be enthusiastic about the Malaysianisation of Qantas, but I don’t think most Australians would be,” Woodward said.

“Mr Joyce told shareholders it was ‘premature to make any announcements at this stage’ regarding his plans in Southeast Asia, yet his would-be business partner obviously thinks otherwise.

“What they are planning is just bad business for Qantas. Last week we saw the collapse of Jetstar Pacific in Southeast Asia after years of draining money from the Qantas Group. Now Mr Joyce wants to hitch our wagon even more tightly to high-risk Asian ventures?

“Tony Fernandes is entitled to push his agenda and, in fact, he’s probably got a lot to gain from Qantas diverting resources into Malaysia.

“But he’s telling Qantas to do one thing, while he himself does another. Mr Fernandes is quoted as saying: ‘Airlines that remain committed to their model will succeed.’”

“Well, that’s a view AIPA would certainly agree with. Qantas will succeed only if it focuses on the two things that have made it great: its Australian identity and its world standard-setting safety.”

Woodward is also calling for a full explanation of the relationship between Joyce and Fernandes after the latter was quoted as saying: “Alan always gave me cheap deals. I was never shy to ask for an upgrade and he was one of the few that gave it.”

Written by : William Sykes
Please explain ‘Malaysianisation’ of Qantas, pilots demand | e-Global Travel Media (http://www.eglobaltravelmedia.com.au/airline/please-explain-malaysianisation-of-qantas-pilots-demand.html)

[WorthWhat]

The scale and cost structure of just about all Asian and ME airlines is increasingly putting the Kangaroo under the pump and Qantas desperately needs an Asia/Europe solution if it is to operate much more than A380’s to London.

Unfortunately Qantas’ decision to go headlong around its Pilots & Engineers, rather than taking them on the journey, suggests to me that QF’s ability to bring about a timely Asia/Europe solution is even further away than it was this time last year.

With all that has gone on, it will take a miracle to fix, but if AIPA started publically articulating a solution the pilots could be a part of and Management acknowledged that QF pilots can make a necessary marketing difference to any Asian based fleet, it may yet be possible.

Right now, believe it’s lose/ lose with no win insight.

Merry Christmas to all - may 2012 to a better year.

[OneDotLow]

...but if AIPA started publically articulating a solution the pilots could be a part of and Management acknowledged that QF pilots can make a necessary marketing difference to any Asian based fleet, it may yet be possible.

Realistically, any solution that came from AIPA would never get a look in. The management of the once great airline, Qantas, have stated time and time again that they don't want to have the running of the business dictated to them by the unions. Now it has become a big dick-swinging (as opposed to big-dick swinging) contest and the current management will never back away from that position. Even if it meant they would save money.

Sad. I'll be ready to be re-engaged once LC, AJ and all their merry men piss off and let someone else clean up their mistakes, and get back to running the airline properly.

[WorthWhat]

Your not the only one who thinks like that Dotty.

Sandilands pretty much covers it in his latest Qantas London piece.It’s not that Asia isn’t critical to the future of Qantas. But so is good management, and a workable strategy............

Reviewing what Qantas has said and done this year, it is reasonable to conclude that the board and management has something else on its mind than the medium to long term survival of the airline.


This article is available at Qantas to turn away 400,000 London passengers in 2012 | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/22/qantas-london-and-its-asia-saves-us-logic/)

[fatmike]

AIPA is the last organisation that should be telling anyone how to run their business.
Woodward should take a lead from Purvinas, get his name out of the press, get his voice off the radio, get his face off the television and ensure that AIPA gets on and negotiates a pragmatic agreement to outstanding matters before FWA decides to change significant bits of their EBA in accordance with Qantas claims.
IMO FWA will never give a decision favourable to AIPA with respect to the ridiculous AIPA claims. Purvinas was smart enough to drop their ridiculous claims so that the engineers didn't expose themselves to being disadvantaged by FWA decisions. Once the ridiculous claims were dropped, hey presto, an agreement was reached quite quickly.

[Conductor]

Well then, Fatmike, you should be pleased to know that AIPA has indeed approached the company about the possibility of a 'quick deal'. As I understand it, the deal would give away some of the fundamental concerns as indicated by the membership during surveys and ballots. I'm not so sure it is such a good idea but then I do agree with you that a FWA arbitrated outcome would not be good for AIPA members either.

[Seabreeze]

We know that times are tough for airlines, but Alan Joyce and the Board smile and pretend everything is OK.

The reality is that the share price (QAN.AX) has been hovering around $1.50 (not far from its all-time low) for sometime now, regardless of how many smiles and confident statements Joyce makes.

SO QANTAS SHAREHOLDERS ARE SAYING THAT QANTAS MANAGEMENT IS NOT MAKING ANY SMART DECISIONS.

If you compare Qantas, Virgin Aust share price (VAH.AX) and the ALL ORDS starting say at Jan 1, 2011, then you can see that the all ORDS has lost about 15% in that time, Virgin 30% and Qantas 45%. In other words, Virgin has fared much better this year.

see QAN.AX Basic Chart | QANTAS FPO Stock - Yahoo!7 Finance (http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=QAN.AX&t=1y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=VAH.AX%2C%5EAORD)

SO THE OBJECTIVE DATA ARE SHOWING THAT QANTAS IS POORLY MANAGED ON A COMPARATIVE BASIS, AS JUDGED BY ALL SHAREHOLDERS.

These are the facts that no spin will change.

A tragedy.....

SB

[WheelsandBrakes]

Fatmike, what were the ridiculous claims that you believe Steve Purvinas "dropped" from the engineers list?

What are the ridiculous claims you believe the pilots should drop from theirs?

[fatmike]

A. A380 hangar

B. Pay and conditions on the longhaul EBA or no worse than longhaul EBA for nearly all Qantas entity pilots; staff travel firm holiday seats and first class lounge access; banded pay by payload for all fleets; paid timeoff for union officials doing union work; Qantas paying the tax on loss of licence payouts; that'll do for a start.

[WheelsandBrakes]

A. 380 Hangar

Maybe you think this is a ridiculous claim, but for me, not so. When my employer tells me that I have to bid for any future work I do on "their" aircraft, all the way up to heavy maintenance work, then the logical step would be to ask - how can I do that if you have not provided me with the infrastructure and equipment to do so?

Their response to this claim and other claims with regards to the introduction of the Cat A's proves that they have no interest in the future of aircraft maintenance, within Qantas or Australia. Personally I would have thought that this would have helped strengthen the position of Qantas in the future with the whole perception of engineering excellence that we used to have, but the current Board obviously have a different view.

B. I am sure alot of the pilot group would believe that the claims that you deem "ridiculous" are not so. Some of these may indeed just be there to "fluff" the claims out and would be fantastic to get but not much hope ie. can easily be ditched to focus on the main ones they really need to fight for.

As many others on various threads have been saying for way too long, Qf management have not been willing to negotiate - the response to each claim has been an emphatic NO, (for the LAME's), so one could assume it is the same with the pilots. The LAME negotiating team did give plenty of scenarios of how some of their claims could be introduced, with the associated costings, and despite what the Qf PR machine has spitted out to a mostly ineffectual australian media, the costings would not have crippled the airline.

If you believe you could do a better job than put your hand up to get onto the AIPA executive during the next election period. As for now, voice your concerns with the current executive.

[fatmike]

As for now, voice your concerns with the current executive.
I do, frequently.
WnB, you don't seem to understand that the 3 unions got themselves out-manouvred in the negotiations. Purvinas was smart enough to realise that. Did you notice that he and Sheldon shut up regarding the "we're coming to get ya" rhetoric, as from the day after the PIA was terminated.
Woodward not so and Jackson not so. They are always in press talking about anything from Qantas issues to lost dogs. None of which benefits the Qantas pilots cause. Arguably it detracts.
For the pilots, this round of the fight is over for about 3-4 years. The game is about preventing losses to Qantas pilots in the FWA arbitration. I just hope their legal team is smart enough to realise that.

[Keg]

If you think this is ONLY about the EBA then you're not as smart as you think you are.

[theheadmaster]

If you took the time to read the information available or talk to a COM member, you would realise that AIPA's first priority is saving jobs then conditions. The assumptions you are basing your argument on FatMike are incorrect.

[What The]

Fat mike and headmaster.

Double the boofhead for the price of one. Spineless to boot.

[TIMA9X]

A little bit off topic but related... forgive me..
by Seabreeze..Keep in mind the share priceGreat post SB



I note that this story made it onto the "just before Christmas slot" major aviation news story in London (to be forgotten) as the final pre Christmas parties set in...

global airline consolidation? in line with the FF groupings.... one world, Star A and the other guys...


BBC News - British Airways owner IAG buys BMI from Lufthansa (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16298167)
British Airways owner IAG buys BMI from Lufthansa

British Airways owner IAG has agreed a binding deal to buy BMI from Lufthansa for £172.5m, but has warned the deal could lead to job losses.
IAG, which also owns Spanish airline Iberia, will gain 56 more slots at Heathrow airport in the deal (http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1642160&highlight=).

The airlines said they hoped the takeover would be completed in the first three months of next yearThe airlines said they hoped the takeover would be completed in the first three months of next year.

The deal remains subject to clearance by competition bodies, and rival Virgin has said it will oppose the tie-up.
Lufthansa had signed a non-exclusive agreement with IAG in November, but had also been in talks with Virgin.

In a statement, Sir Richard Branson, chairman of Virgin Group, said: "BA is already dominant at Heathrow and their removal of BMI just tightens their stranglehold at the world's busiest international airport.

"We will fight this monopoly every step of the way as we think it is bad for the consumer, bad for the industry and bad for Britain."
Job losses BMI employs more than 3,600 staff, but reported a £153m loss in the year to 2010.

IAG chief executive Willie Walsh said: "Given the scale of BMI's losses, there is an urgent need to restructure the business.
"Unfortunately, this will mean some job losses but we will secure a significant number of high quality jobs here in the UK and create similar new jobs in the future.
Mr Walsh said the restructuring would be carried out over a three-year period.
BMI, which is based in Castle Donington in Leicestershire, operates flights to Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
It has 8.5% of the landing slots at Heathrow, the UK's busiest airport, which are seen as the main attraction of a purchase.

BMI also operates the BMI Baby and BMI Regional brands, which have no landing slots in London airports.
Lufthansa has the option to sell both BMI Baby and BMI Regional before the deal with IAG is completed.

If Lufthansa does not sell BMI Baby before the deal is completed, IAG said the price it would pay would be subject to a "significant" reduction.
Landing slots Several European airline takeovers have been referred to the European Commission competition authority in the past.

The Commission has prevented takeovers between airlines that operate within the same country in the past, such as in the cases of Ryanair and Aer Lingus in the Irish Republic, and Olympian and Aegean in Greece.

However, the Commission analyses competition issues on a route-by-route basis, rather than on the basis of domination of a particular national market.
If a merger between two airlines restricts passenger choice along a route, then the Commission may ask the airline to give up some of its landing slots to enable another company to launch a competing serviceLH selling BMI back to BA?....... now, who would have thought that, back when BA was experimenting with it's own LCC version Err, Go Fly?

That didn't last long as BA off loaded Go FLY and went back to concentrating on its own premium product.... oh that's right, AJ has donated the Q Bangkok London route, (among others) to be managed by BA at her pleasure until further notice.

Meanwhile, AJ BB are "ducking and diving" through the cultural diversity of SE Asia (KL and Singapore) and to my fascination, pretending to have the answers. It appears, they still don't know whether it's KL or Singapore... as this year is now rapidly drawing to a close... is it possible AJ has a vision similar to Willie Walsh, but in reverse, Jetstar buys Qantas....?

only joking...... :O

Jingle Bells.

[DEFCON4]

Most Australians have difficulty understanding Joyce.
He may as well speak Swahili in Asia.
Joyce's performance in Asia will be nothing if not entertaining

[Ex Douglas Driver]

ANALYSIS: MAS targets new recovery route (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-mas-targets-new-recovery-route-366213/)

The surprise, though, is its decision to start a new premium regional airline by the second half of 2012. The carrier will operate a fleet of new Boeing 737-800s on key business routes and connect Malaysia to cities in south Asia and greater China.

The long-term plan, however, is for it to take over all domestic and regional routes served by MAS, enabling the parent airline to focus exclusively on long-haul.

It would appear that Malaysian don't want to join with Qantas either, and are going to go it alone?

[OneDotLow]

Rumour from Fort Fumble is that the pilot heading up the team to 'establish the operational requirements' of FarQ has returned to the line on the 767. But Of course they are saying "it's all still going ahead" in their most confident voice ?! :hmm:

Yet another pilot to add to the surplus of Cpts on the 767. :ugh:

[Nigel747]

....and, the acting fleet mgr asks us to welcome him back.
And that he's sure he's looking forward to catching up.
Is he ordered to right this sort of drivel? Or worse, does
he mean it?
The act of helping set up Red Q was a Judas act and should
be treated accordingly.

[toolish]

Just curious, is it the same QF 767 Capt that was sent to JQ Aust in the early days??

[Capt Kremin]

No it is not.

JG actually had his A320 conversion cancelled a couple of months ago. This was noted elsewhere on the first post of this thread.

[Conductor]

....and, the acting fleet mgr asks us to welcome him back.
And that he's sure he's looking forward to catching up.
Is he ordered to right this sort of drivel? Or worse, does
he mean it?
The act of helping set up Red Q was a Judas act and should
be treated accordingly.

Oh don't worry, there isn't much love for him in the rank and file. He might find it hard to find someone to have a beer with (although not many slips permit that nowadays).

[hotnhigh]

Perhaps the fleet manager wanted to add this......:ouch: or:ugh:

[goodonyamate]

what should have been said was 'sorry, there's a surplus, so there's no position available...you'll have to come back at the end of your LWOP'

would one of the guys who went to J* be welcomed back by management??? I think not.

[Keg]

Lol. The rumour mill suggests that he offered his services as Fleet manager again to be told 'no thanks, we're happy with the new bloke' (I don't think they added that so are most of the line crew). He asked to be put back into a SCC position (sorry, I can't remember the correct letter... Cat B? ) to be told 'sorry, no vacancies, we have all the trainers we need'. So, back to the line he goes.... so the rumour mill suggests! :ok:

[DirectAnywhere]

I said it earlier, but it warrants saying again:

Nothing would surprise me in this outfit.

A senior manager wrote that JG's little Asian sojourn was a great example of the opportunities that would open up for Qantas pilots.

So....leave QF as a fleet manager, piss off to Asia for six weeks, start a type endorsement, get screwed over by management incompetence and come home again, chastened and poorer for the experience. Yep, sounds like a typical QF 'opportunity'.

Returning to the line from Fleet Manager certainly meets the definition of 'opportunity'. Q-style.

[Nigel747]

Apparently they considered giving him his office job back but it would have been too expensive to re-install all of the mirrors.

[gobbledock]

This is great stuff. Nothing beats watching a rat turn on another rat!
Sensational stuff.

[Transition Layer]

Hope the 767 guys and girls enjoy flying with him! :rolleyes: At least you'll have plenty to talk about at work!

Wonder if he will he hold off on the engine start during pushback so he can listen to his own voice on the Safety Demo?

[2Plus]

At least you'll have plenty to talk about at work!Or not! :hmm:

[Gear Pin]

Bluster!

I'll bet not ONE of you guys says anything to his face.

He was nothing but helpful to me when he was Fleet Manager. I can only judge him on what he did for me as my manager, and prefer not to get into the classic Qantas "group think" in a bar.

I didn't agree with some of his thoughts, but others were absolutely correct. Problem was, to many, his message was an unpalatable truth.

So let's just shoot the messenger. That'll make us feel better. But it won't help us keep our jobs.

[Keg]

I can only judge him on what he did for me as my manager...

It's presumptuous to assume that the rest of us don't judge him the same way.

[Gear Pin]

I know for an absolute fact, an absolute fact, that many 767 pilots have not judged him on their personal experience, but on assumed notions that he is somehow partly to blame for our predicament. I have flown with some who have never met him. He is a target that many use to vent their frustrations.

That's akin to hating cold water because of the Titanic disaster.

My presumption is that those who have written words here, cloaked behind a veil of secrecy, won't have the guts to say anything to his face. Not whilst sober, anyway.

[TeHoroto]

:DGear Pin,

You may call it lack 'of guts'. To the intelligent it's called diplomacy. Good luck with your career mate, may I suggest implementing some diplomacy to ensure a long one.

Cheers TH.

[Keg]

The day of the announcement of RedQ- the afternoon of in fact- I happened to be in the office and saw said Fleet Manager heading off to a meeting. He asked had I heard and when I responded that I didn't understand how starting RedQ addressed the alleged losses of Qantas mainline. The Fleet Manager told me with great authority that it was all about on carriage, putting people onto QF aircraft, etc.

When I asked Lyell Strambi the same question the next day he said the two issues are unrelated in a basic sense*. They saw the opportunity to do this SE Asian thing and at the same time they needed to shrink long haul in order to stop it losing money.

*He did go on later to say that they weren't going to keep throwing money at mainline when they could throw money at RedQ so the two were related but certainly not in the way that the then 767 Fleet Manager made them out to be.

The then 767 Fleet Manager would have been better off responding to my question with 'buggered if I know, I guess I'll find out at the briefing I'm going to' instead of going with BS that was obviously wrong even to me.

Would you like to know about the unanswered emails- to the extent that I no longer bothered? The number of 'attaboy's I asked him to forward on to F/Os for a job well done but weren't- to the extent that I no longer bothered? I'm quite happy to judge a man on his demonstrated performance and I've run into very few colleagues on the 767 who do anything other than that.

[Angle of Attack]

Regardless of all the internal politics my fear is this Red Q or whatever is going to fail miserably, especially by the standards of the QF's group couple of forays into Asia. Jetstar Pacific is an unmitigated disaster and Jetstar Asia has only managed to be marginally better than that! As far as i am concerned the A320 proposal is an initial proposal and a joke,(Preminum cabins and A320 do not co-exist, except maybe an hour or 2 flight time), it is more a base for the future 787's, and for connections to Europe well then it may have some success, and it has questionable success for intra Asian travel, yes maybe for some people travelling between SIN and other ports but thats about it, but as you know you go to Chinatown for the best deals on stuff and the vast majority of people these days go for the cheap option! As for connecting australian cities to Asia forget it! China Southern has quite a few direct flights to Oz at the moment (45 Weekly direct flights) and planning to make it 150 direct flights in 2 years. No one wants to have 2 stops to Asia they want direct! So in conclusion I sense yet another unmitigated disaster coming on! Yet another drain on the balance sheet while Rome burns with lack of funds to the core business. I understand peoples concerns about their own job but I reckon we should be far more concerned about the entire direction of this mob, there is no sense in it at this stage! Due to the strong Aussie dollar that is my 4 cents worth! :ok:

[Gear Pin]

Oh, I see what my problem is! I'm not sending emails to the Fleet Manager!! Annoying him with crap!

In my 17 years in Qantas, I haven't had a reason to send even one email to the fleet manager; what on earth are you writing to him about??!! Crew meals, late transport, etc? What a burden, and a waste of resources.

And as for "'attaboys", how about showing some leadership and doing it yourself??!! If you're the Captain and a respected leader of men, it'll mean more coming from you, anyway. Surely.

It seems that those who continually write emails to management seem to have an inflated opinion of their own importance. I reckon if they stop responding, humbly take the hint. You've diluted the important message with all the rubbish ones, so they really don't think your issues are that important at all.

So let's all make ourselves feel empowered by venting on them for ignoring incessant emails, and not giving F/O's a cuddle for doing a the job they're paid to do. We might even intimidate management into kowtowing and giving us the 787!!!!

[Worrals in the wilds]

As for connecting australian cities to Asia forget it! China Southern has quite a few direct flights to Oz at the moment (45 Weekly direct flights) and planning to make it 150 direct flights in 2 years.The successful PR point Qantas formerly had against these carriers was 'We might be average and a bit pricey, but we're safe and we're Australian'.
As the Board have spent most of 2011 waging a succesful PR war to convince the public that they're no longer safe or Australian, for the average punter the reason to fly Qantas rather than China Southern is...?:confused:

[MACH082]

I wonder which ace was flying the 767 yesterday that blew a pneumatic line in the leading edge and destroyed the slat on the right wing :)

Rome is burning, ter be sure ter be sure!

[C441]

And while we're at it. Has anybody else bothered to read the HOFO blogs recently? (There haven't been many.)
I did and was amazed at how our beloved HOFO thinks we are even remotely interested in his thanking of managerial Captains who volunteered to be Duty Captain over the Christmas/New Year period and those returning from duties which rightly or wrongly are considered a threat to many current pilots, whilst paying little regard to those pilots who were actually away and to issues that could be considered more relevant to line pilots.

Sure, thank the Duty Captains for their assistance but do it in a more appropriate forum because we really aren't interested in gratuitous compliments.

[Keg]

Ah Gear Pin, that's twice now you've made assumptions about things upon which you know nothing about. Simple things like potential efficiencies, hazards, issues with intams and notams, and a request for the Fleet Manager to acknowledge an F/Os efforts beyond what I've already acknowledged obviously escape you. The concept of an F/O having a nice letter from the FM on file for when a potential stuff up occurs sometime later in their career obviously does as well.

Given you've vented about people slagging others anonymously, make sure you say all this stuff you've posted here to my face when next we meet. Better yet, PM me your mobile number and we'll meet up for a beer.

[-438]

'Qantas the worlds most experienced airline.'
It is all starting to fit together.
The reason why Qantas has not ordered 777's and the reason Jetstar Pacific is still part of the Group portfolio is to gain even more 'experience' in dealing with Loss of Face prior to dominating the Asian arena with the Red Q experiment.
To be sure, they will be experts in Asia when the time comes.

[rmcdonal]

In my 17 years in Qantas, I haven't had a reason to send even one email to the fleet manager; what on earth are you writing to him about??!! Crew meals, late transport, etc? What a burden, and a waste of resources.
Isn't that exactly what fleet managers are for? The day to day small stuff that builds up but is to small for the CP to look at?

[The The]

Isn't that exactly what fleet managers are for? The day to day small stuff that builds up but is to small for the CP to look at?

And exactly why fleet managers need to be experienced Captains earning flight pay plus plus - to deal with the really big issues. An admin assistant on 1/4 of the pay could never deal with crew meal issues or thank you letters to F/O's.

[Gear Pin]

Would you like to know about the unanswered emails- to the extent that I no longer bothered? The number of 'attaboy's I asked him to forward on to F/Os for a job well done but weren't- to the extent that I no longer bothered?

Simple things like potential efficiencies, hazards, issues with intams and notams, and a request for the Fleet Manager to acknowledge an F/Os efforts beyond what I've already acknowledged obviously escape you. The concept of an F/O having a nice letter from the FM on file for when a potential stuff up occurs sometime later in their career obviously does as well.

Thanks, now I get it!

So, it's like a suggestion box!

You don't need a Fleet Manager, you need a secretary, champ.

[1a sound asleep]

Scoot and Air Asia will both have lower operating costs and will ultimately make mince meat of Jetstar. Air Asia X has canned its LH to Europe/UK and DEL . Now they will attack every Jetstar route they can.

[DrPepz]

What is Jetstar Asia's cost base? I don't suppose we'd ever know beacuse their accounts are not separate.

Anyway - I was looking at going to KUL and Jakarta from SIN in the next week.

SIN-KUL:

SIA/Silk Air: 11 flights a day. Still merrily charging S$400 return for the 35min flight. Full.

Jetstar: 3-4 flights a day, Charging S$70 return. Seems empty all week. No problem securing the $2 or $0 fares. The schedules are all over the place. Some days all the flights are in the morning. Other days the night flight doesn't operate.

SIN-Jakarta:

SIA: 8 777s a day. That **** airline has the audacity to charge S$600 return for the 1h20min flight. And they're full.

Jetstar/Valuair: 3-4 A320s a day. On Tuesday the 7.45am flight does not operate and the earliest flight is at 3.35pm. They're charging S$140 return for most flights.

I didn't consider the other airlines because I would never over my dead body fly Tiger, nor am I terribly keen on the Indonesian Airlines.

I chose Jetstar in the end because I made my schedule fit Jetstar's God Awful timings, and couldn't stomach the thought of giving SIA $400 for a cup of tea to KL or $600 for the 1h20min flight to CGK. And I get 4000 QF points too, since there is the minimum 1000 points for QF/3K/JQ flights even if they're just 200-500 miles. But I had to literally shift my meetings around the days where Jetstar/Valuair would deign to offer a morning departure ex SIN. Obviously I'm not important enough, but I don't think 99% of business travellers would even bother with such rubbish.

But if despite every person and his donkey's airline flying SIN-KUL and SIN-CGK, the SIA Group still has such immense pricing power over the market, simply because they can offer 8-11 flights a day at convenient times, then what future does Jetstar have ex SIN, except for low yielding pax and people like us on this forum who would have the patience to go through the website to check exactly when their flights operate?

Jetstar Asia has been pissfarting around with their AKL schedule, with a daily service which they cut to 6, then 5 weekly and now it's back to 6 weekly.... And they're known to cancel the MEL service every now and then. One of my friends took Jetstar SIN-AKL and said it was unbearable for 10 hours, and she'd never ever do it again.

In the meantime SQ is absolutely full through the NZ summer for SIN-CHC (daily service) and SIN-AKL (double daily service) and continues to charge what it pleases. (SIN-NZ regularly costs more than SIN-Europe on SQ flights despite being about 20-30% shorter!)

Last Gripe: Jetstar Asia's SIN-Manila flights operate at 0230, 0630 and 1700. HUH?! How would any business traveller choose them? Seems more like the maid traffic they'd get and not much more.

And yes Jetstar Asia has access to supposedly cheaper labour, has 17% corporate tax, favourable depreciation schedules, massive government aviation incentives, employees with very low income tax, lower GST than Australia, is in a better geographical location than Australia and operates in a transparent, non-corrupt, English-speaking, Westernised jurisdiction with a government that tolerates their sham set-up in order to grow traffic out of Singapore. And they cannot make it work.

But they'll make their nice ventures in Vietnam and Malaysia work of course.

Gosh I'm not even Australian and this makes my blood boil!

[QF22]

Pepz
JQ is a LCC not premium airline.
If you dont like it, dont fly it !
If you want flights to suit your meetings, you pay !
Simple really !

[Ken Borough]

QF22,

I think the good doctor is saying that if Jetstar Asia were even half smart, they could make a fortune in the SIN market. Judging by the examples he's given, a good scheduler and yieled expert could possibly work wonders for them.

'Low cost' should not be synonymous with 'dumb'. :ugh::ugh:

[Oxidant]

Agree, think you are on the money, Ken.

[RENURPP]

Low cost' should not be synonymous with 'dumb

how ever in this airlines case they are!

[TIMA9X]

Jetstar Asia has been pissfarting around with their AKL schedule, with a daily service which they cut to 6, then 5 weekly and now it's back to 6 weekly.... And they're known to cancel the MEL service every now and then. One of my friends took Jetstar SIN-AKL and said it was unbearable for 10 hours, and she'd never ever do it again.

In the meantime SQ is absolutely full through the NZ summer for SIN-CHC (daily service) and SIN-AKL (double daily service) and continues to charge what it pleases. (SIN-NZ regularly costs more than SIN-Europe on SQ flights despite being about 20-30% shorter!) interesting points in your post Dr P...... :ok:

So it's the LCC model v Premium model v Ultra Premium model (hedging all the bets ....)

Hmmm, then, I read this today.... from KL just to confuse things a little more,

Qantas boss bets the house on Asian expansion


Read more: Qantas boss bets the house on Asian expansion (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-boss-bets-the-house-on-asian-expansion-20120113-1pzdg.html#ixzz1jPQv5gEz)

http://images.smh.com.au/2012/01/13/2892141/ipad14airlines2-420x0.jpg
Alan Joyce has been talking up his plans for an ultra-premium airline based in Asia, and now it's time to deliver.
When Tony Fernandes last jetted into Sydney for a major PR event it was to trumpet his airline's operational alliance with Qantas's budget offshoot, Jetstar, aimed at saving them both money on buying planes and parts. The outspoken boss of AirAsia engaged in a group hug with the Qantas chief executive, Alan Joyce, and Jetstar's boss, Bruce Buchanan, for the cameras at Jones Bay Wharf, with the Harbour Bridge as a backdrop.


Although arch rivals in much of Asia's budget air markets, the Qantas duo and Fernandes, in his trademark red baseball cap, were keen to showcase their close relationship.
''The sky's open to what else we can do,'' Fernandes boasted.


Two years on Joyce and Fernandes are again in talks, this time about setting up an ultra-premium carrier in Malaysia. The two fortysomething CEOs have much more riding on the outcome of their negotiations.
For Joyce, the plan for an ultra-premium airline as part of a joint venture with Malaysia Airlines - the national flag carrier over which Fernandes now has considerable influence - is the centrepiece of his bold gamble to shift Qantas's centre of gravity closer to Asia.




The Irishman has emerged hardened but not unscathed from one of the most bitter industrial battles in Qantas's 91-year history. After bringing a long-running stand-off with unions to a dramatic head
three months ago when he grounded the airline's entire fleet, Joyce now has to deliver on his plans to turn around the loss-making international operations and snare a bigger slice of the world's fastest-growing aviation market.




His long-term strategy might be bold but it is high-risk. Launching an ultra-premium airline in south-east Asia is fraught with political, cultural and financial hurdles.


''The Asian step is clearly an ambitious one but a pretty understandable one,'' says Conor McCarthy, a mate of Joyce's who is regarded as the operational brains behind AirAsia.


''Qantas seem to be taking a view that they would not be going it alone, that they would look for partners. That makes sense because an Australian airline trying to break into markets in south-east Asia on its own might have some real problems - not just regulatory problems - but just in terms of breaking into the markets that would be strongly protected by the incumbents.''
The rush is on for Asia's nouveau riche. A severe downturn in debt-laden European economies and a weak outlook for the US makes Asia look like a honey pot for airlines.


''It is the most resilient customer right now,'' Andrew Orchard, an aviation analyst at Royal Bank of Scotland in Hong Kong, says of Asia's wealthy and corporate travellers. ''There is a lot of wealth flowing into this part of the world. That is something airlines recognise.''
The Asia-Pacific region eclipsed North America as the world's largest aviation market in 2009 by a few million people, notching up 647 million air travellers at 26 per cent of global passenger traffic.


By 2015, the International Air Transport Association is forecasting, travel within the Asia-Pacific will account for almost a third of the total. Although predicated on what happens in Europe and the US, the peak body for airlines is forecasting annual traffic growth of almost 7 per cent in the region by that year.


Qantas is not alone in the race to court well-heeled flyers in Asia. Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines are doing their utmost to boost their appeal, knowing they need to stay ahead of their rivals.
From his Dublin office, McCarthy says Qantas's plans for an ultra-premium carrier haven't been discussed at AirAsia board level but he has been part of ''broad discussions''.


''It wouldn't fit with AirAsia's market at all. What it would be is something that would work probably between MAS [Malaysia Airlines] and Qantas, with potentially Tony's involvement as well and a clear segmentation of the market,'' says the co-founder of AirAsia, who worked alongside Joyce at Ireland's flag carrier, Aer Lingus, in the 1990s and later helped design the blueprint for Jetstar.


Joyce's ambitions rely heavily on buy-in from Fernandes, Malaysia's answer to Richard Branson who, together with McCarthy, has built AirAsia from two planes and a pile of debt into Asia's largest budget airline over the last decade.
''Tony is front and centre. He is part of the strategy - he is not just keeping a roving eye,'' a Qantas insider says. ''We've got a failing international business … we need to do something. [Malaysia Airlines] are clearly struggling, so both companies essentially have to make something happen.''


Qantas initially favoured Singapore as a base for a new airline but Malaysia became more attractive in August when AirAsia and the government-controlled Malaysia Airlines agreed to a share swap. The deal opened the way for Qantas to progress talks on setting up an ultra-premium carrier based in Kuala Lumpur as part of a joint venture with the Malaysian flag carrier.


Apart from Fernandes, the other central character in the talks has been Malaysia Airlines' deputy CEO, Mohammed Rashdan Yusof. Described as ''very smart'', Yusof represents the Malaysian government's sovereign wealth fund, Khazanah, at Malaysia Airlines. The share-swap deal left Fernandes and his associates with almost 21 per cent of Malaysia Airlines, while Khazanah took a 10 per cent stake in AirAsia, the region's equivalent of Ryanair. ''Now Tony is not in a position to piss off Khazanah, but likewise Khazanah is not in a position to piss off Tony,'' an insider says.


Qantas has a dual track process under way. Under its favoured ''capital-light'' option, a new airline based in Kuala Lumpur would use 15 twin-aisle A330 aircraft which Malaysia Airlines is due to take delivery of shortly.
At the same time, Qantas is wanting to bolster its relationship with Malaysia Airlines, initially through a code-share alliance but eventually extending to a much closer tie-up similar to its revenue-sharing agreements with British Airways and American Airlines.

Under the plans, the ultra-premium airline - Qantas has been testing RedQ and OneAsia as brand names - will service Australia and other medium-haul destinations, including China and India. Qantas maintains the airline is a different but complementary proposition to Malaysia Airlines' plans for a short-haul premium carrier, announced late last year, several months after the asset swap with AirAsia.


Although it will include other classes besides business, the Qantas offshoot is touted as having ''very high specifications'' and ''will not be replicating anything else'' (such as British Airways' all-business class flights from the City Airport in London to New York).
In contrast, the plans for Singapore - now playing second fiddle to Malaysia - are very different, requiring a capital injection of up to $500 million and using single-aisle A320neo aircraft Qantas ordered last year.


Either way, Qantas will have to overcome considerable scepticism. Kuala Lumpur might be a growing capital city but it is not the business hub where ''you would expect this type of premium service to be based'', says RBS's Orchard, who lists Hong Kong and Singapore as preferable locations.


''The intentions are very good, and maybe they are a little bit ahead of the rest of the market. But basing a new premium carrier there would be a missed opportunity, even though I can see why they are doing it. Part of it is that their hand is being forced.''

More importantly, he questions the timing of setting up an ultra-premium airline because more people - even in Asia - are choosing to fly economy class due to the precarious state of the global economy. Business class might be a high yielding part of the aviation market but it is low volume.
''On the one hand you do see wealth creation in this part of the world. On the other hand you have dominant players already in SIA [Singapore Airlines] and Cathay,'' Orchard says.


''Even if you have a low-density plane run by Qantas and Malaysia Airlines out of KL, is it going to be that much better option than what SIA already offers?''
Middle Eastern airlines such as Emirates and Etihad are also fighting aggressively for premium passengers.
The question is whether RedQ will be ''premium enough'' to encourage the rich and corporate travellers to switch from Singapore Airlines and Cathay. It will need high frequency, and good timing for business passengers who want to sleep on the planes before arriving at their destinations to go straight to meetings.


Ground products such as airport lounges and services to ensure passengers move smoothly from their home to the airport gate are also becoming more important.
''It is the whole nine yards - it is the frequency; it is upgrading the product,'' Orchard says. ''Upgrading the product is becoming increasingly important with lounges and limo services. The older incumbent carriers are realising that this new reality is upon us.''


Even under a ''capital light option'', there will need to be a refit of a dedicated fleet of aircraft to appeal to the well-heeled traveller - not to forget training of staff. All of which does not come cheaply.
''It is going to take some time to build up … as many as five years,'' Orchard says. ''And in the first few years you probably have to be more competitive on pricing. You have to accept margins will be smaller.''
The attempts to target Asia's growing upper class might make sense on paper but industry insiders question what Qantas offers Fernandes and Malaysia Airlines.
It is not the first time Qantas has danced with Malaysia Airlines, only for them to go their separate ways. Under Geoff Dixon, Qantas attempted a merger in 2008 but that tango broke down over the ratio of shareholdings in any venture.
So where [I]does Qantas fit into the grand plans of Fernandes and Malaysia Airlines?


The question leaves many veterans scratching their heads.
''I don't see the opportunity for Qantas. What do they bring to the table?'' an insider close to both parties asks, before pointing out that China is a much higher priority for Fernandes than Australia and Qantas.
''I can understand that they will fill the back of the plane but why does Tony Fernandes want to give it away [to Qantas]? If it was a joint venture with someone in China I would understand it.''
Fernandes, a one-time employee of Richard Branson, also has his hands full. Apart from Malaysia, AirAsia has offshoots in Thailand and Indonesia, as well as new ventures in Japan and the Philippines.
Add his English Premier League Club and formula one racing team, and now his involvement in Malaysia Airlines, on whose board he sits.
''Where does Qantas fit into his day?'' a source asks.
Even Joyce recently admitted that Fernandes can have ''50 business ideas a day''.


But after the industrial turmoil last year that cost Qantas $194 million, the pressure is mounting on Joyce to pull another rabbit out of his hat. A team led by a Qantas group executive, Lesley Grant, has been reviewing international options, including a new carrier, since last January.
Shareholders want some payback after several dismal years.
''Qantas investors have put up with a lot in the last 12 months and they want to start seeing some good news. That is where they are pinning their hopes - on the Asian carrier and expectations of a growing market,'' the CBA Equities transport analyst Matt Crowe says.
''[Qantas] has had the excuse of the industrial dispute. They need to get on with it.''


Joyce has the caveat that any investment in Asia will depend on global economic conditions. But the airline maintains that it needs to find a solution for turning around its international operations and cement its place firmly in Asia before deregulation of the aviation market gathers speed.
Investors are likely to find out as soon as next month, when Qantas releases its half-year earnings, whether a dalliance with Malaysia Airlines will fly. But even if Joyce and Fernandes can nut out a deal, establishing an airline - even under the preferred ''capital-light'' option - will take time. Winning approval for a new air operator's certificate is likely to take a year, while gaining critical mass will take at least another.


''Premium airlines are being talked about all over Asia. The problem with the industry is that the lead time is so long,'' a former senior Qantas executive says. ''KL to Singapore is like Adelaide to Sydney. They are wanting to go upmarket for business traffic but there is just not that much.''
Conor McCarthy is doubtful, too, about the rush for Asia's emerging wealthy classes.
''Some of them [airlines such as Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines] are getting involved early on because they want to be on that train when it leaves the station,'' he says.
''There is a sizeable market but the problem is that it's a pretty fragmented market. It is all over Asia and Asia is a big place. Where one group might want to fly from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, another group might want to go from Kuala Lumpur to Bali.''
The large network needed presents a big challenge because it will have to meet the high demands of first-class travellers even when passenger volumes might not be high.


''It is going to require some careful roll out. There are benefits Qantas can bring to Malaysia Airlines and benefits Malaysia Airlines can bring to Qantas, which some of the stronger carriers would be reluctant to share,'' McCarthy says. ''You try to do something like this in Singapore and you are going to find Singapore Airlines quite aggressive in defending their turf and not wanting to share any of the cake.''


The Irishman says Qantas's push into Asia, where ''there is huge room to grow'', is an obvious strategic decision given the limited growth in its home market.
''[But] for you to break people away from their existing frequent flyer programs, to migrate them from their existing airlines to a new product, takes longer. So you need a little bit more patience and you need a little bit more capital,'' he says.
''The problem with the airline business is that there are some great ideas running out of capital before they get a chance to establish themselves.

Read more: Qantas boss bets the house on Asian expansion (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-boss-bets-the-house-on-asian-expansion-20120113-1pzdg.html#ixzz1jPRHW1EI)
Go get em AJ.... everybody is watching ....:}

meanwhile,


AFTER four years of lobbying, Malaysia's long-haul budget airline AirAsia X is on the verge of launching flights between Sydney and Kuala Lumpur.
Clearance from Malaysian regulators for AirAsia X, a long-haul offshoot of Asia's largest budget airline, AirAsia, to fly to Sydney came as the airline announced that it would ditch long-haul flights to Europe and India, blaming high jet fuel prices and weakening demand for air travel.
Goldman Sachs analysts downgraded their recommendation on Qantas from ''buy'' to ''hold'' yesterday, reflecting a weaker economic outlook, the high fuel prices and lower expectations for premium travel demand.


AirAsia X's chief executive, Azran Osman-Rani, said yesterday he was hopeful of launching flights to Sydney but wanted to ensure all the ground work was done before confirming services.
''Hopefully everything will come together and we will be able to … [launch] it quickly,'' he said.
Mr Osman-Rani will visit Sydney next week to meet executives from Sydney Airport.

Read more: AirAsia X finally set for Sydney touchdown (http://www.smh.com.au/business/airasia-x-finally-set-for-sydney-touchdown-20120113-1pzb9.html#ixzz1jPgCUKgy)

[73to91]

Qantas's Asia plan may hinge on how to split joint venture

Read more: Qantas's Asia plan may hinge on how to split joint venture (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantass-asia-plan-may-hinge-on-how-to-split-joint-venture-20120117-1q4nn.html#ixzz1jkgS4IjT)



ONE of the biggest barriers to Qantas striking a deal on setting up an ultra-premium carrier in south-east Asia in partnership with Malaysia Airlines will be each side agreeing to their ownership stakes in a new venture, says the boss of the long-haul airline AirAsia X.

Azran Osman-Rani's comments come as AirAsia X confirmed it will launch direct flights between Sydney and Kuala Lumpur in April, after four years of lobbying Malaysian regulators to allow it to enter the route.

Although he is not involved in the talks, his comments about Qantas's plans for Asia carry weight because his airline is an affiliate of AirAsia, whose chief executive, Tony Fernandes, will be key to whether Qantas can form a joint venture with Malaysia Airlines. Mr Fernandes took almost a 21 per cent stake in Malaysia's flag carrier in August, giving him considerable influence over its direction.

''One thing they are going to have to sort out is the whole ownership issue, because that is one of the barriers from their previous efforts,'' Mr Osman-Rani said in Sydney yesterday.

''If both sides want to have a majority, someone has to give in.''

Qantas attempted a full-blown merger with Malaysia Airlines in 2008, but the talks broke down over the ratio of shareholdings each carrier had in a merged entity.

Pressure from investors has been building on Qantas to offer more clarity about its expansion in Asia.

''Firstly they just need to make a decision and stick with it - which hub and which partner - because right now there seems to be a lot of talk but not a lot of things moving,'' Mr Osman-Rani said. ''The longer you wait, the further back you will be.''

Qantas has been favouring Kuala Lumpur over Singapore as a hub for a new carrier.

Mr Osman-Rani doubted Qantas would face the same regulatory barriers in Malaysia to have beset AirAsia X in recent years.

''I don't think that is going to be a big issue because Malaysia, as a matter of policy, is actively encouraging foreign airlines to come in, obviously because Malaysia's aspiration is to catch up to Singapore,'' he said.

AirAsia X - in which Richard Branson has a 10 per cent stake - will launch daily flights between Sydney and Kuala Lumpur on April 2, several months before Singapore Airlines's new low-cost offshoot, Scoot, will make Sydney its first destination. Their entry will intensify pressure on Qantas's budget offshoot, Jetstar.

AirAsia X is focusing on markets in the Asia-Pacific such as Australia after announcing last week that it will ditch services to Europe and India because of high jet fuel prices and weak economic conditions. Mr Osman-Rani said the airline would not be boosting the Sydney service to a double-daily flight until next year at the earliest. But it is keen to launch flights to a fifth Australian city - most likely Adelaide - next year, when it will take delivery of new A330 aircraft.

AirAsia X already flies to the Gold Coast, Melbourne and Perth from Kuala Lumpur.

[Nassensteins Monster]

''The intentions are very good, and maybe they are a little bit ahead of the rest of the market. But basing a new premium carrier there [in Kuala Lumpur] would be a missed opportunity, even though I can see why they are doing it. Part of it is that their hand is being forced.''

Sounds like press-on-itis.

AJ if you were a pilot you would've heard the old adage: Better to arrive late and alive than dead on time.

You're betting the farm - someone else's farm - and pushing a bad position to boot.

Why not sit down with the unions and employees and have an honest discussion about the risks, challenges and dangers the airline faces? Let's sort out the problems in our own house before we bet the entire farm on what most commentators agree is a high risk strategy.

[V-Jet]

NM - You cannot be serious?

For anyone with 10% of a brain the game is over. Get out while there are still lifejackets and slide rafts.

[DrPepz]

Getting back on topic, if you have the energy to read this very long post (or rather, posts), here is an interesting take on the whole MAS-Air Asia thing, and if Alan Joyce thinks he knows how to deal with Tony Fernandes and Malaysia, then good luck to him

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/474727-heist-decade.html