Dubai Airshow - More 777s

[junglie-driver]

Emirates places order for 50 Boeing 777-300 ERs with options for 20 777-300 ERs valued at US$26 billion

DUBAI, U.A.E., Dubai Air Show, 13th November 2011: Emirates today placed the single largest aircraft order in dollar value in Boeing’s history for an additional 50 777-300 ER aircraft, worth approximately US$18 billion (Dhs66 billion) in list price.

[glofish]

To all the doom and gloom predicting wise noses painting the T7 a dying fleet:
Are you putting your names on the T7 list now?? Or are you still waiting patiently for the 350?

[Flaite]

We need another runway, another terminal and more airspace :}

[donpizmeov]

Glofish, even if they added the tee shirt, and those oven mitts they handed out a few years ago, I would still stay away from it. :E

The Don

[av8tordude]

Are these replacement aircraft or fleet addition? Also they have orders for...

A350-900 (50ea)
A350-1000 (20ea)
A380-800 (73ea)
B777-300ER (90ea)

The last time I attended a info session, it was indicated Emirates was not meeting its recruitment quota. Is it feasibly possible that Emirates will be under-staff? With such massive growth expansion, is it reasonably to think that Emirates will expand itself into unprofitability?

[donpizmeov]

EK are understaff experts. They also normally cut our pay (productivity payments, reduce/remove credit hours) to make their understaffing pay. 760hrs per year was the norm some time ago. And then things changed, and not in a nice way. EK is historically a very lucky airline, and its seniority list shows the demise of the airlines from around the world. They always seem to land on their feet numbers wise.

It would seem the 350-1000 is a non contender, so some of these 773s might be replacements for them. Will tell you for sure in 2020.

the Don

[The Turtle]

Emirates And Boeing: After The Deal A Chat About The Future (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3af7c658c0-a0eb-4706-b933-8bd962722798&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)
Posted by Robert Wall (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/community/persona/index.jsp?newspaperUserId=25764&plckUserId=25764) at 11/13/2011 8:36 AM CST

What do Boeing and Emirates do a day after signing a deal for 50 firm 777-300ERs and options for 20 more (a mere $26 billion if all options are exercised)? They talk about more aircraft.

Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO and President, James Albaugh, says talks with Emirates, including the airline's boss, Tim Clark, will take place on Monday about the so called 777X, the end-of-decade update to the 777 Boeing, has signalled it plans to put into the market.

The 777X -- expected to come in a -8X and -9X version -- would feature a new wing and new engine. Clark wants the aircraft performance to allow the airline to transport 360 passengers with cargo from Dubai to Los Angeles, while delivering lower fuel burn (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=dubai_2011&id=news/awx/2011/11/13/awx_11_13_2011_p0-393696.xml&headline=Emirates%20Embarks%20On%20New%20Growth%20Phase).

But what could become the main area of disagreement is potentially not the aircraft performance, but its timeline. Clark wants the 777X to be ready around 2017, when the 777-300ER fleet replacement cycle gets going. Boeing is looking at an end-of-decade date (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=dubai_2011&id=news/awx/2011/11/12/awx_11_12_2011_p0-393636.xml&headline=Boeing%20Capital%20To%20Play%20Larger%20Sales%20Rol e), so a tad later than Emirates might like.

One issue that could dictate how patient Clark is could be the performance and timeliness of the Airbus A350-1000.

[westausatc]

Flaite,

Agreed! Or maybe just finish DW and make them all move out there - it would have the same effect (once finished).

50 more 777s??? Oh man, life is going to be fun at work! Even with approach doing a decent job of it, the last few nights we have had a lot of you guys holding for over 40 minutes (BUBIN and DESDI). How long is Emirates going to be happy for it's aircraft to carry an hour's fuel just for sequencing delays?

Having said that, I love the 77W (as controller and passenger) and so seeing more of them is great if it leads to some other types being reduced in number.

[glofish]

Amen to that!

[bvcu]

not mentioned on that press release but elsewhere is another 9 777f's for delivery 2012 - 2015 !

[vfenext]

Glofish, grow up!

[glofish]

vfenext

Touched a nerve? But you might be right, it was a slightly low jab .....

HOWEVER:

On some other thread future colleagues asked about their career chances, what fleet would be better to join. Genuinely serious questions!

Some answers pointed to the "dying fleet", how much better it would be to join the 330 fleet, that the T7s would be dumped and only Airbus pilots could aspire a timely upgrade.

It is in that respect that I wrote, condemning the doom and gloom about the T7.

Because today it seems that it will be the fleet of the near to mid future, especially for upgrades.

So if some of you lean that much out of the window, with their wisdom, you have to gracefully swallow some sarcasm if your predictions fall somewhat short.

To all future colleagues: Always take EK-pilot's advice with a pinch of salt. A lot of personal agendas sing along......

[donpizmeov]

Some good points there glofish.

However,

The current 777 fleet is 100ish. All the classics are being retired starting 2013. 58 captains from the Bus are being sent to the 777 starting Feb 2012. Total orders stand at 90 now for the 777. As mentioned more (10?) 77Fs freighters are on the way. Delivery dates for the new orders have yet to be announced.

The bottom FOs of the 777 list would still be missing out on a command at the moment as the classic retirements and the Bus captains will still leave that fleet short. 773er retirements start 2017.

There are 27 330s, 8 343s and 10 345s and 16 380s. Another 70 380s and 50 350s on the way. All the 343s and 4 330 be be retired in the next year. 17 380s to be delivered in the same time frame. Life on the 330 will be ****e for the next few years. But with those numbers they are going to run out of captains on the 332/4 for 380 expansion. So that means right to left on 380 at some point (unknown).

No personal agenda here. Just trying to point out that anyone who states a new joiner should join one fleet over another based on the past is not doing anyone any favours. I don't think the ideal fleet (if you get the chance to choose) is as easy to define as you imply.

the Don

[Guy D'ageradar]

Has Dubai ATC ever looked into doing dual staggered arrivals to both runways when the departure arena is not busy. It would seem if you could stagger arrivals for 2 runways visually at 2.5 miles apart vs 5 miles apart on 1 runway, it would help. Is that possible to do here or not?

It IS being looked at - 2.5 miles is never going to happen though - vortex wake minima still have to be applied and there are enough complaints already when you get MORE than the requirements! :hmm:

[White Knight]

there are enough complaints already when you get MORE than the requirements

Too true... Must be the same guys that use highlighter pens all over the ruddy OFPs:rolleyes::hmm::ugh:

[Iver]

Don,

Are the Airbus Captains being "reassigned" to the 777 fleet based on need/growth or are they bidding for the 777 fleet? Given their experience on the Airbus and their familiarity with Airbus quirks, wouldn't they want to stay on the Airbus line and continue to the A380? Or is that not an option per management's direction and fleet need on the 777.

[falconeasydriver]

Don, whilst I accept your comments on face value, I think your opinions are based on a couple of questionable assertions, those being the number of 380's that will arrive, and the timeframe and number of 350's that will eventually arrive.
Id also take issue with what your assumptions of the manning levels required on the 380. My view is unchanged in the respect that it still appears that the 380 will be restricted to shorter sector lengths to maximise its revenue generating capability and minimise its freight and fuel burn disadvantage over longer sectors. All this being the case, the 777 fleet is going to need a greater number of bodies per airframe due to more augmentation.
For some of us, losing the main hubs in europe and asia might be a tough pill to swallow, but that is where I see the 380 being deployed to a greater extent.
As it stands today, I'd agree that a new joiner has about the same time to wait on the 777 or 330, if however the 350 gets delayed further or doesnt even show up because Boeing trump it etc, then those guys are going to be sat watching junior guys on the 777 pass them by.

Just my thoughts, probably all wrong as usual:ok:

[donpizmeov]

Falcon,

I am not stating that the Bus is the way to go for a new joiner. I will state again that life on the Bus will be ****e for the next few years. But, I do recommend that some thought be given to the default "join the boeing" catch phrase.

Now I know it is heresy to debunk Boeing flight deck banter, and I wouldn't have a clue where the 380s are going to go. But Timbo still seems to want to send them everywhere. Check Flight Global for a recent interview with him on future plans. I have also heard that all future performance courses on the 380 will be taught by Boeing pilots. Weird or what??!!

Who knows mate, you may not be as wrong with this one.:E

The Don

[Easy Ryder]

New Joiners don't have a choice for a few months anyway.

A friend just interviewed approx a month ago, and was told by HR there will be no new joiners for the bus until the end of March. So if you want to join before then it's T7 or a long wait....

[nolimitholdem]

Don,

I think the point falcon made, in far more gentlemanly terms than I would have, is that you absolutely HAVEN'T "debunked any Boeing flight deck banter". (??)

Projections are merely conjecture. How about examining the actual numbers regarding upgrades vs. fleets, in the last few years and then seeing how they correspond to credible orders for the next few? (By credible, I mean airplanes actually currently on assembly lines.) Sure, it won't be perfect, too many variables (DEC's, fleet transfers).

But I think you'd find they make a pretty strong case for the "join the Boeing" mindset. Of course it's not black and white, some guys are really happy to be FO's on the 380 or in Dubai more on the 330 or whatever. But sit in the right seat, they still do, while their brethren with the same range of S numbers have commands. Uncomfortable seat and all. Simple fact. That equals experience, dirhams, and options. If the 330/340 fleet is going away and there are no contract 380 jobs, I know which fleet I'd want to be on. But then I was never a big Dubai fan.

Announcements are cheap. Perhaps I'd have more faith in the 380 numbers if the a/c had reliability even a small percentage of that of a B777. Talk to the engineers, read the ASR's. Hell, talk to the pilots. Airbus, as usual: oversold and underdelivering. Perhaps I'd believe the A350 orders if they were more than a gleam in an engineers eye, ever getting smaller in the distance. Perhaps I'd put more stock in "Timbo's" pronouncements if I thought he would even be on the premises much longer.

But another 50 for the "dying fleet" puts paid to a lot of nonsense and wishful thinking.

[donpizmeov]

Contacted, I agree.

nolimitholdem, not quite sure what your trying to say.

The Don

[Plazbot]

What a fuggn joke. A bigger stuff up of access I have never seen. Never, ever again.:ugh:

Seems like catch the Metro to Emirates station and camp on the grass out the front of the car park is the best option.

[captainsmiffy]

I have been speaki g the mother tongue for close to 48 years now.....but what on earth is the above post saying?!!!!

[Boeing 777-300ER]

It might be the works of Apple. Although a wonderful piece of machine, I just can't stand it when I need to type in something!!

[Sciolistes]

I think he is talking about getting into the airshow and difficulties thereof.

[Plazbot]

Sorry old plumb, yes, perhaps I was somewhat off the topic of the post immediately before mine but yes, I was responding to the implied difficulties of ingress to said aeronautical extravaganza and have realised my error in posting in the wrong thread.

I suggested that if one were to make the journey next time, they would be well served to consider catching the automatically piloted Metro light rail system to the Emirates HQ station and foregoing the entry to the actual precinct and viewing from the grassed area on the runway side of the car park. As an addition, the mobile version of the event web site had a very acurate and easy to follow flying schedule that was quite useful to organise timings for tea and scones.

Tootle pip, bad teeth, monthly baths and all that to each and every one.

[Iver]

Plus, you get the A380 pilot t-shirt!!!!!!!!!!! :p:cool:

Seriously, once an A330/340 FO transfers to the A380, what's the difference between the A380 lifestyle/routes and the 777 lifestyle/routes?

Once the A330s and A340s depart over the next few years, will A380 FOs continue to sit on the A380 and wait for the left seat or will some spill over to the 777 left seat once A350 delays begin?

[FcU]

My prediction....any further delay from Airbus or lack of performance in weight or range will result in a cancellation of the 350 order.

[Bypass ratio]

I don't know how you can say the A380 is a better lifestyle than the Boeing. It's a new type with not many destinations. If you think you'll be doing less flying on the 380 than the Boeing in the years ahead then you've got rocks in your head. But hey, I already knew that. I think the next 3 years ahead for you will have you shaking your head and wishing you had joined on the Boeing.:ok:

[poundsbaby]

Yes the command comes quicker on the Boeing, and yes the 330 guys are doing it rough

So, wait longer for command (how much $$$ will that cost you) and endure several years of working significantly harder, all in the hope that life will be better once you finally make it on to the whale? Seriously?

[grounded27]

Are these replacement aircraft or fleet addition? Also they have orders for...

A350-900 (50ea)
A350-1000 (20ea)
A380-800 (73ea)
B777-300ER (90ea)

The last time I attended a info session, it was indicated Emirates was not meeting its recruitment quota. Is it feasibly possible that Emirates will be under-staff? With such massive growth expansion, is it reasonably to think that Emirates will expand itself into unprofitability?


Not on topic with the orders and who really cares how you number and name your aircraft but what is with Airbus giving dash numbers of 800/900/1000. They should really call the A350-1000 the A350.999, Is it a marketing strategy thinking you are buying something for a dollar when priced for 1.99? if there is a logical reason for this please enlighten me.

[Wizofoz]

The 380 is a lovely beast to ride on, and I think it does have at least as good a lifestyle as the 777 (though I personally enjoy the "challenging" destinations-I'm twisted that way!)

However, the big problem is, unless they start right-to-left on the 380 (and thus a riot among the 330/40 skippers) the only place to go is back to the small bus, and I don't think even ex-380 would defend the lifestyle there!

380, how long do you envisage till you get back to the whale, and is it long enough to make you think going 777 would be a better option from the LHS?

[donpizmeov]

Awww come on bypass can we have your name to so we can post personal posts to you too? Honestly I have met EK managers with more common sense and awarenes than you!

Think about what happened at a neighbouring airline and PPRUNE. Keep names out of posts! Unless you want to post your own as well. But I do feel you will lack the intestinal fortitude to do that.

The Don

[donpizmeov]

Poundsbaby,

How many 777s do we need in the fleet, for the most junior FO on the 777 list now to get a command? Given that the classics will all be gone by 2016, when (year will do) will that number be operational. Is there any spare for the new joiners not already on the list (I think you should include the 20 options)?
How does this differ to the Bus fleet?
How many 777 FOs are already on the list?
How many bus FOs are already on the list?

This will certainly prove your well argued point.

The Don

[poundsbaby]

Hi Don,

How many do we have now? About 90? How many to retire? 25, I think? 75 (including options) new orders to go with the 40 currently on order +10 freighters is a net gain of.....
Plus, I have a slight suspicion one or two guys will leave in the next few years, maybe even four or five, maybe even you! :E:E

Adding to that, you've been here awhile, can you think of a 5 year period in EK's history when it didn't order more A/C? Is all the growth finished?

[donpizmeov]

Ah forgot about that. So just another order of 10 or so 777s and the junior fella on the 777 list now should be covered. But your right, people will leave so he may be good for that last delivery. But thats not until 2019ish, is he going to have to wait that long?
Another 145 aeroplanes by 2020 is growing isn't it?

Am only days away from buying a lucky lotto ticket, so am doing my best to leave. Wish me luck :ok:

The Don

[Bypass ratio]

Noted. Don