13th Month, Yes/No?

[stillalbatross]

Whats the latest?Thought it gets announced some time soon*

*meant CX only, KA can have a chuckle to themselves.

[Iron Skillet]

Right.

As has been repeatedly explained year after year, back when the 13th month was virtually always paid, pay rates for staff based outside HKG were adjusted to always include the 13th month payment added to their 12 monthly payments, which always happens even when the 13th month is not paid to HKG based staff.

The fact that this doesn't seem so anymore is just another example of...well, you know.

[Cpt. Underpants]

A big YES, except for iCadets, who need to show eternal gratitude for the wonderful opportunity granted them by voluntarily giving it up. Or else.

[cxorcist]

There is no good reason not to pay 13th month. Company is on track to make half a billion US$ this year.

[AAIGUY]

7.5-8 Billion

Atleast 2 weeks profit share too, maybe
3.

[dogleg]

With respect to our 2011 interim results, the CEO, John Slosar said...

"Outside of 2010 this was our best annual result in 10 years!!"

So, I'd say there would be a riot out outside CX City if there is any nonsense for paying anything other than the FULL 13th month regardless of how hard the expectation management machine is running at the moment.

Orient Aviation (http://www.orientaviation.com/section.php?currenyIssue=I20110811170834-u51HK&currentSection=businessroundup&currentArticle=A20110830100824-6MA6I&)

[broadband circuit]

Cannot.

Times are tough, yields are down, WOLF!, there's no money in freight, we're bleeding cash, WOLF!, We might be full but all the passengers are on discounted tickets, exchange rates are working against us, WOLF!, Fuel prices are getting high again, our hedging strategy didn't work.

How many times do these people need to cry wolf?

[Fr8t M8te]

Where is Numero Crunchero when we need him

[spannersatcx]

staff based outside HKG were adjusted to always include the 13th month payment added to their 12 monthly payments

Oh no they're not.

[go43andrti]

Skillet

Have you ever done the math on this? A unified scale HKG based FO in year 4 makes well over $1,500 usd more per month than a NAM based unified scale FO in the same year. Not to mention the housing and school allowances. So let's be done with this 13th month is 'included' crap. Unless i'm owed a lot of money, my 13th month is certainly NOT included.:mad:

"As has been repeatedly explained year after year, back when the 13th month was virtually always paid, pay rates for staff based outside HKG were adjusted to always include the 13th month payment added to their 12 monthly payments, which always happens even when the 13th month is not paid to HKG based staff.

The fact that this doesn't seem so anymore is just another example of...well, you know."

[geh065]

People on a base knowingly give up housing and education by taking that base (or joining on a base) so don't go crying about not having it. Same goes for the pay scales.

Likewise if HKG based pilots want that 13th month contractual then take a base!!

Stop whinging and if we want to improve things contractually, lets get the AOA to do it for us (or at least try) instead of whinging about what he has and what he hasn't got.

[jonathon68]

Read your contract.

First of all it is not a 13th month. It's an "Annual Discretionary Bonus", which is subject to the Company making "a satisfactory operating profit".

Those of us who have been here long enough remember when the based salaries were raised 8.3% to include the equivalent of a 13th month. It was included in their monthly salary. However those of us remaining in HKG get our Annual Discretionary Bonus only when CX makes a satisfactory operating profit. I think it has not been paid 3 times while I have been here.

The Company practice is to inform staff as early as possible, if the ADB is not going to be paid.

[Iron Skillet]

go43andrti,

Sorry buddy, but you can bark all you want about the variations in "market forces" that have led to all the different pay scales in different areas, but that's another story and that ship has sailed.

The fact remains that the 13th month was adjusted into the 12 months of based pay scales a long time ago. CX pays 12 x monthly vs. 26 x 2-week payments for 52 weeks/year as is done in most countries = 13 months, hence the 13th month tradition in HKG. So the 13 payments were put into 12 payments 8.3% (or whatever) higher. That's why the 13th month is considered permanently in those based pay scales, regardless of the HKG staff getting it or not. That's just the way it is.

If you want to live in HKG with its cost of living and receive that location's pay scale, while hoping for a profitable year to receive a 13th month bonus as per the HKG COS, it's simple: Move to HKG. And when you consider the extra (edited 14 Nov to include those at the bottom end of the deal) 3000-9000USD/month or so in housing assistance provided to attract experienced expats to HKG, which also means none of the salary is spent on the mortgage or rent, HKG staff are way more than 1500$/month ahead of you, and nobody is making waves about that accepted variation in the different conditions?

If you want based guys to also get a new bonus of another 13th month beyond was is included in their pay scale, then submit a motion to the AOA to get a vote going on having the membership get together to prioritize this and pressure the company to give you more money, perhaps even agreeing to a unified force of contract compliance and the will to participate in a worldwide walkout. Good luck with that!

[Liam Gallagher]

Iron Skillet,

I believe it is foolish to discuss what our salaries may or may not be on a public forum. For good reason, most people do not openly discuss their salaries and indeed should you be rude/foolish enough to walk into a bar in HK and ask a suit what he gets paid, you will be told to "poke off". So why do you feel the need to discuss it on here?

Further, your discussion is with one of 2 groups; non-cx pilots and cx pilots. Frankly, it is of no business to non-cx pilots what we are paid. New-joiners can contact Recruiment if they want to know the current T&Cs (which may or may not bear any relationship to the figures you quote).

Should you wish to discuss salaries with Cx Pilots, then use the AOA forum (perhaps Numero Cruncher may lurk in those parts:}) If those seeking a discussion are non-members, then why discuss anything with them at all.

Finally, I know you are not the first to discuss numbers on pprune and sadly you will not be last, but I believe it would be prudent for us all to refrain from discussing numbers in public; no good can ever come of it.

[Iron Skillet]

You might be right. But sorry, I don't agree.

Discussing salaries may remain taboo in the minds of old folks, but the reality is that there are no secrets about salaries in any industry, and much less so in our seniority-based career where people are paid proportional to their years of service, just like the military, which also publishes its pay scales freely. Your neighbours already know all about your salary and housing assistance, and they don't really care because you (and I) are just not important to anyone out there who isn't already here or thinking of coming here.

Information or specifics about CX salaries, as well as those of just about every other airline, are available online for anyone who wants to find them. Ppprune is not an HK bar. Do you walk into bars and ask a suit what he thinks of the latest airplane crash, or BPP court case, or aircraft order, or staff travel, or so-and-so's new policy, or anything else relevant to your colleagues?

I feel just fine knowing that others know what CX has to pay for the pilots it wants to attract and retain, particularly when they are currently creating a disaster by degrading the package by 50-80% to attract very young, totally inexperienced, very immature and totally unprepared people who have never had a real job and/or any real flying jobs, and don't even care how much they are getting paid or how much they are damaging their future and mine.

Non-cx pilots who care know exactly how much you and I are paid. So does anyone else who wants to know.

There is a reason only 250-300 pilots have ever posted on the AOA forums, and only 1-2 forums are regularly used, compared to the usage at anonymous Ppprune. There is a reason pilots have a lively anonymous online forum but HSBC managers, Quality Health nurses and Macau ferry mechanics do not.

The more you try to hide something, the more it seems you have something to hide. I have no shame or pride in knowing that others are aware of what I am worth to my employer. If that bothers other people, it is not my fault or my problem.

Lastly, since this forum and word of mouth are just about the only ways to get the story out to ignorant prospective employees about what is really going on with the salary issues and housing assistance elimination and their significance, I have no problem letting readers know how it is and I don't care if some unskilled labourer, president, graphic artist or dentist doesn't like it.

All it takes is Google to find out what you might still think is a big secret.

[Liam Gallagher]

Iron Skillet,

Your first sentence says it all...

A breath-takingly arrogant response. You acknowledge the risks and dangers of discussing our salaries, yet because you decide it's alright, my privacy and the privacy of the others, is not respected.

My friends and neighbours don't know what I earn, nor do i know what they earn. We respect each others privacy. It is not discussed. I wish to keep it that way.

I am aware that others have published such information and I am aware that google will throw up much information. Much of that information is dated and incorrect, and I would be grateful if you didn't update it or correct it

If you feel the need to "wave your willie", pick another subject. Like I said, nothing good can come of this and I do not understand your need to discuss such things.

[The Wraith]

I am with Liam on this one. Skillet, this is a public site and most of us don't wish to have our details published here..... :ugh:

[Iron Skillet]

Then focus on my last sentence:

"All it takes is Google to find out what you might still think is a big secret."

This applies to your neighbour's so-called private information, too. If you cared to know, you could find out in 30 seconds without ever talking to them. They are about as interested in your salary as you are in theirs.

This is 2011. There is no such thing as privacy. You were probably photographed dozens of times today, your car and/or mobile is likely to be a homing device for your position and movements, and every word you typed and sent over the internet, including this forum, has been documented, analyzed and can be traced back to you. Same with every word you said on your mobile or any other phone. Or radio. And every penny you spend, except most of that spent in cash.

What's the big deal? You know exactly to the penny how much NR, RH, JS are paid in salary, housing, bonuses, etc., and the world keeps turning, right?

[SMOC]

I don't think this has anything to do with pilot pay, it's a cultural thing, most Australians couldn't care less about sharing pay information, however I've found most British are quite guarded about discussing their pay and no doubt each and every culture will be divided on the issue.

[stillalbatross]

Thought it was normally announced before mid Nov to give people enough time to get alternative funds organised. The rumor mill's saying plenty are waiting to pick it up before quitting for pastures greener.

[goingdown]

Where are those greener pastures?

[treboryelk]

And if you were going to leave, why hang around for one month of taxable pay?

[badairsucker]

The rumor mill's saying plenty are waiting to pick it up before quitting for pastures greener.
Christ, that rumour does the rounds every bloody year.
Why would you wait til the 13th month payout. You have to give 3 months notice anyway.

[old salt]

Well well well,
It is in the Friday telex. " We will be reviewing things further in the coming week, and we may have to make some tough decisions to reduce expenditure, without impacting on what we need to do next year"
As usual, flog and bully the staff.

[dogleg]

"...it will only be capped or not paid when the profit is marginal or negative..."

Well, an interim profit for the first six months of 2011 of $2808 million is pretty fantastic (second best result of the last 10 years). Hardly marginal or negative, I'd say.

[hongkongpilot]

The Friday Telex, 25 November 2011

"We’ll be reviewing things further in the coming week and we might have to make some tough decisions to help bring down expenditure, without impacting on all the important things that are happening next year."

No 13th month ? :confused:

[raven11]

Although no company does expectation management like our Company.....

Even when considering that the economic news has softened a bit lately, the reported profit in the first six months was huge, it is inconceivable that no 13th month is paid!

[Flaps10]

So I was just on intracx and there was a memo on the home page saying that our annual 13th month discretionary bonus would be paid (to eligible staff) on our December pay.

Now it's gone. Was it a mistake? ;). I copied the link so I can confirm that it existed but the actual page is no longer there.

I assume that the other existing memo regarding a staff pay increase in 2012 does not include cockpit crew right?

Merry Chri errr I mean Happy Holidays! :E

[Flaps10]

Nice to see its back. CX has given me cause to be skeptical in the past! :)

Off shopping...

[CokeZero]

Love it.

A pay increase of 4.5 - 5% for all eligible HK staff. Why can't the AOA get onboard with this?

[Iron Skillet]

Who says pilots are not considered employees in the same markets as the rest of employees who need and deserve this 2012 adjustment? And why?

[The Messiah]

Something to do with our incremental pay scales I've heard said.

[BusyB]

IS,
Management say so, just like the A and B scale FA's didn't get it.:uhoh:

[Pomerian]

Those FA who are on salary scale will have the scale being adjusted effective Jan 2012
Those who are on top tier will have an one-off gratuity

[jonathon68]

Why can't the AOA get on-board with this?

Why? Because the FAU GC were actually prepared to threaten industrial action over Christmas/New year/Chinese New year. That could damage bookings.

Action is not really required. A "timely and credible" threat of action will affect the bottom line. So Management can justify an expenditure to ensure the profit.

The AOA GC are about as scary as a 5 year old with a toy sword. The chance of anyone getting their eye poked out are minimal.

[AnAmusedReader]

If you are, read your back updates. There was a pay rise in Jan 11, HDP increased in July 11, there.s another pay rise next May and HDP goes into the 13th month payment in next year.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif