Dam Buster film

[Saint-Ex]

Anybody else watch the BBC 2 Tuesday programme on the problems faced by Barnes Wallace leading up to the Dam Buster raid? Great factual reporting with some interesting film. Nicely done.

[chevvron]

It's Wallis not Wallace.
Years ago, I was proud to provide a radar service to a Vulcan fron 617 Sqdn (what else) doing a flypast at the great man's home for his birthday. Years earlier (about 1965) I went on a school trip to Weybridge/Brooklands where we were shown into his work area in the racing circuit control tower (which is now part of the museum) and they showed us models of his VG designs and told us he still came into work occasionally.

[Saint-Ex]

I really should have remembered how to spell his name. I had the honour of meeting him on several occasions while working at Wisley. A delightful character.

[cyflyer]

Anyone know whats happened with the 'new' dambusters movie that Steven Fry is supposedly been making for the last umpteen years ? Is it another one of those phantom movies that is just a load of hot air at the end of the day ?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Apart from the early "none of this was known till now" (which was clearly cobblers, anybody with much interest in aviation history was well aware), I thought it was an excellent, thorough and thoughtful bit of programming. Very enjoyable as well.

G

[henry crun]

cyflyer: Steven Fry is not making the Dam Busters film, he is writing the script.

The film is being made by Peter Jackson, but he is heavily involved with making the Hobbit at present, so it would seem the Dam Busters has been put on the back burner.

[Wander00]

Let's hope he does not try merging the two!

[reynoldsno1]

The Swannery at Abbotsbury in Dorset has (or had) one the orginal prototypes of the bomb on display and a audio-visual presentation about the trials, some of which were conducted off Chesil Beach nearby. It's a very pleasant place to visit ...

[kluge]

Let's hope he does not try merging the two!

Quite. Instead of a dog named *igger it could be a Hobbit named *ugger. :rolleyes:

[crisso]

Whilst last weeks BBC2 programme was quite good and enthusiastically presented, I still feel the best documentary on this subject was the Channel 4 Secret History episode originally shown back in early 1994.
I recollect then seeing footage for the first time of Lancasters being hit by water splash also, an explosion off Reculver of a live Upkeep mine.

[Mechta]

5JqBiMgC2Wg

Some excellent test footage here including the one of a Douglas Invader dropping its bomb way too low with horrific consequences. And yes, Crisso is right, water can be seen streaming off the tail of a Lanc in one test.

Music is actually 633 squadron, but works well IMHO.

[XV490]

Anybody else watch the BBC 2 Tuesday programme on the problems faced by Barnes Wallace leading up to the Dam Buster raid? Great factual reporting with some interesting film. Nicely done.

Didn't the chap on the telly say 'Orgsburg'? Where's that?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Whilst last weeks BBC2 programme was quite good and enthusiastically presented, I still feel the best documentary on this subject was the Channel 4 Secret History episode originally shown back in early 1994.
I recollect then seeing footage for the first time of Lancasters being hit by water splash also, an explosion off Reculver of a live Upkeep mine.

I was involved for the 60th anniversary in a later C4 project.

The plan for a while was to use a light/microlight aeroplane with substantial modifications to drop a scaled down bouncing bomb. We got very enthusiastic about this, and had various boffins involved doing a lot of maths.

It turned out that the size and speed of the splash-plume creation was such that basically anything slower than a Lanc couldn't do it. Either you were so high that the bomb wouldn't bounce, or you were so low that the plume would strike and probably damage / destroy the aeroplane.

Which was very dissapointing, and that bit of the project got knocked on the head.

One interesting lesson from that - working with the boffins at Qinetiq, was that much of BNW's calculations had been destroyed at the end of the war, the assumption being at the time that this knowledge was too dangerous to leave in the archives. So a lot of his maths on how the bouncing bomb worked had to be derived again from scratch. Much faster second time around - we had Microsoft Excel - which nicely replaced a whole team of assistants that BNW would have had.

The rest of it however, clearly went well and it was a great programme. I'm just very sorry I wan't involved after we dropped the scale-bouncing-bomb bit.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Didn't the chap on the telly say 'Orgsburg'? Where's that?

Very close to Augsburg I think.

G

[smuff2000]

I thought the program was excellent, only problem was the narrator who's delivery could have been an awful lot better. Dan Snow would have done a better job I think.
I too, in the sixties, had the very great pleasure of meeting Barnes Wallis, he was at that time still working for BAC, as it then was. I went to the Museum at Weybridge a while ago and when I walked into his office it was just as I remebered it. Only things missing were the Tallboy & Grandslam bombs either side of the entrance to the "tower"

[Hipper]

That battleship in the film is the French Courbet.

Argyll News: Highballs in Loch Striven :Argyll,Barnes Wallis,Maersk,bouncing bombs, | For Argyll (http://forargyll.com/2010/05/highballs-in-loch-striven-2/)

[VictorGolf]

That's an interesting clip. I didn't know Invaders had been used in the trials. And why was the Lancaster chosen over the Mosquito? I would have thought the Mossie would have been a bit more nimble for the approach to the dams.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Size I think - I don't believe that the Mossie could possibly have taken a weapon that large.

G

[SEP Flyer]

And why was the Lancaster chosen over the Mosquito? I would have thought the Mossie would have been a bit more nimble for the approach to the dams.

The weight of the Upkeep bomb was too much for a Mosquito by about a factor of 2 - also, to spin the Upkeep bomb, an additional petrol engine was mounted in the Lancaster.

[Mutttley]

The size of bomb required to break the dams was only just capable of being carried to them by a Lancaster.

The Mosquito and Invader trials are of the smaller version known as Highball, meant as an anti-ship weapon. It never reached operational status.

Sir Barnes Wallis - Bombs (http://www.sirbarneswallis.com/Bombs.htm)

The Invader was trialling Highball for use by the American air force. The fatal release is insanely low. I don't know if it has ever been established why the pilot was so low, as British practice (which he must surely have known about) was to release much higher, after the early incidents with Upkeep damaging Lancaster's tails.

The Highball incident (http://napoleon130.tripod.com/id725.html)

[aviate1138]

The Germans had versions too.

Kurt- German bouncing bomb - YouTube

[GQ2]

As someone pointed out a few posts ago, there were two similar British weapons. The facts about the larger weapon used on the Lanc's, - 'Upkeep" are well-known. The smaller, much-less well known weapon used in the Mosquitos was Highball, and was an anti-shipping device. A specialist squadron was formed and worked-up to operational status late in the war, with the intention of deploying the weapon to the Pacific. The foreshortening of the war resulting from the dropping of the atomic bomb meant that the squadron was disbanded before it could be used operationally. Their Lordships were particularly touchy about this weapon, as, in the days before smart weapons, this was a highly effective weapon indeed. They didn't want a similar device deployed against themselves. In fact it stayed on the Secrets list until the 1960's I believe.
.
Interestingly, it can easily be seen in the videos, that Highball was of a rounded shape, as per Upkeep, before the troublesome casings were omitted. The Highball Mosquitos carried several mines, two I seem to recall, in a streamlined ventral housing.
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The Invader destroyed in the film whilst dropping a similar weapon seems to have done so over dry land, not water, ......so one may speculate that the release was unintentional. The Americans were evidently not terribly interested.
.
The German weapon 'Kurt' has always interested me, and I have often wondered how they came to embark upon it. Kurt was clearly not intended to be used against dams, and was an anti-shipping mine from the outset. The implication being of course, that they had either recovered unexploded Upkeep mines, or had gained knowledge of Highball. The usage suggests the latter, so there is probably a good story in there for anyone with the patience to look into it. It's interesting also to note that Kurt was able to be dropped from a fighter (Did I spot two at the same time...?) and the rocket assisted version looked pretty fearsome....! :eek:
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As for the original thread;- I think the original film is not only a classic, but it has, by and large, a very authentic feel to it as it was made closer to the actual events (Upkeep was still Classified at the time the film was made.). Even the special effects are mostly surprisingly good. I get utterly sick of the constant flow of remakes churned-out by Hollywood, which are invariably inferior to the original. If this remake goes ahead, they are really going to have to pull-out ALL the stops to make it worthwhile. If anyone can do it, Peter Jackson is the man, as he's such a prop-head, so I wish him luck...!
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GQ2.

[aviate1138]

GQ2
"If anyone can do it, Peter Jackson is the man, as he's such a prop-head, so I wish him luck...!"

If this is an indication of Peter Jackson's intent then I too wish him the very best of luck and I look forward to a remake that is likely to be better than the original.....

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/ScreenShot2011-11-28at161645.jpg

[VX275]

The Invader destroyed in the film whilst dropping a similar weapon seems to have done so over dry land, not water, ......so one may speculate that the release was unintentional.

Maybe not. Both Upkeep and Highball were trial dropped on land against the Wall Target on the Ashley Walk range in the New Forest. High ball was also dropped at a railway tunnel (IIRC somewhere in Wales), so the use of such weapons against targets like this is not as far fetched as you'd belive whilst watching the film Mosquito Squadron.

[VX275]

The Invader destroyed in the film whilst dropping a similar weapon seems to have done so over dry land, not water, ......so one may speculate that the release was unintentional.

Maybe not. Both Upkeep and Highball were trial dropped on land against the Wall Target on the Ashley Walk range in the New Forest. High ball was also dropped at a railway tunnel (IIRC somewhere in Wales), so the use of such weapons against targets like this is not as far fetched as you'd belive whilst watching the film Mosquito Squadron.

[aviate1138]

I worked on Mosquito Squadron. We had a visit from Mr Startup [A Barnes Wallis technician] who showed us a 35 m/m cine reel of bouncing bomb tests, Upkeep and Highball. He told us the Highball bomb dropped by a Mosquito into a Welsh railway tunnel apparently burst out of the far end sealed brick wall and into a village street. Not sure if this is a fact but Mr Startup seemed sure it had happened.

Those were the days!

[Mutttley]

The film quality of the Invader shots is so poor it is difficult to tell if it is over water or some very flat and even land. However the "Highball Incident" report I linked to earlier does state very firmly that the trials were carried out over water.

It is most unlikely that the bomb release was unintentional, as it is recorded by a very professional camera crew.

Incidents (http://napoleon130.tripod.com/id596.html)

Look at the "Notable A/B-26 Invader crashes" section to find:



28 April 1945 - A-26C-25-DT Invader, 43-22644, assigned at Wright Field, Ohio, crashes into the Choctawhatchee Bay, 3 Miles NE of Fort Walton, Florida after being struck by a bouncing bomb. Dropped at low altitude (~10 feet) the weapon skipped back into the aircraft completely knocking off the tail unit causing the bomber to nose over instantly and crash into the bay. It had taken off from Eglin Field, Florida, on a low level bombing exercise at AAF water range Number 60.



There was only one Invader modified to take Speedee/Highball

[teeteringhead]

ISTR hearing that the Upkeep "spin up" engine was a modified J.A.P motorcycle engine. Any confirmation? It would seem to be suitably NBW lateral thinking - and have made the back of the Lanc even noisier!

[Noyade]

Found an illustration that says it was a hydraulically-powered motor?...

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6961/img229o.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/img229o.jpg/)

[PPRuNe Pop]

First time I have seen that diagram, seen the bomb but none of the 'works' before.

One question though. When the bomb was released how was the pulley belt disconnected?

[Lightning Mate]

I think they relied upon it snapping!

[Noyade]

When the bomb was released how was the pulley belt disconnected? Just moved outwards with the support frame...

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4809/img231d.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/img231d.jpg/)