QANTAS Exodus

[DirectAnywhere]

For those of you who don't have access to it, there is a thread running on the internal QF pilots' bulletin board which makes for depressing reading.

It looks like the exodus has well and truly started. It's not depressing for those who are leaving. I know several of them and wish them all well in their future endeavours. They all deserve a successful and rewarding career.

It does however provide an interesting insight in to the mindset of many in the QANTAS ranks at the moment.

While the numbers and my take on it are not scientific by any means, it looks like about 20 guys have just left, or are just about to leave, to move on to Emirates or other carriers. I'm not going to argue here about whether things are better in the sandpit or not. For our purposes, it is sufficient to say that it appears to an increasing number of QANTAS pilots that they are.

What is interesting is that all of these guys are relatively young and experienced F/Os between the ages of 30 and about 45. "So what?" I hear you ask. What I believe we are seeing is the start of an exodus of those with the experience to go elsewhere who are are young enough to reap the benefits of a reasonable length of time left to forge their career with a new carrier. In short, they are the experienced F/Os who would have formed the backbone of the QANTAS Captain ranks in years to come.

We are not seeing older Captains leave. They have no reason to. We are not seeing younger S/Os leave as many of them simply don't have the right hand seat time. This is not to belittle them or their skills in any way but they just don't have the experience required to move directly in to a spot with Emirates or similar carriers.

While it is clear that there will be a reduced numbers of pilots required for QANTAS mainline operations, the QANTAS group is another matter entirely. With the number of aircraft on order the QANTAS group will require more pilots. That is the plain and simple truth. While it appears the board and management may be keen to thin the pilot ranks, I'm starting to wonder whether they have just kicked a massive own goal.

No-one could accuse the QANTAS exco of having been spectacular strategic thinkers over the last 10 years vis a vis the failure to invest in a large, long-range twin, failure to recruit pilots to take advantage of the peaks, continuing to recruit when it was clear the global economy was taking a turn for the worse in 2008, the failures in Vietnam. QANTAS has always seemed to be 18 months or so behind the curve for the last 10 years or so. These examples, and many others, reek of tactical rather than strategic thinking - short term gain, longer term pain kind of thinking. Billion dollar profits a few years ago were driven by a lack of capital investment which is seriously coming home to roost now. Short term gain, long term pain.

So back to my original proposition. QANTAS management appears to be so driven on breaking the unions to achieve a short term tactical victory that it appears they may have made a strategic FUBAR by driving off those who can leave and take advantage of what they believe to be better opportunities. This is the cadre of experienced pilots they are going to need when the crop of 250 odd pilots over 60 inevitably start to retire in the next few years - for the 'Group' if not for Mainline.

We have seen a trickle of pilots leave when things have taken a turn for the worse before but this may just be the start of the flood that management have been denying would ever happen. If that flood should truly eventuate, the outcome could be far more damaging for the QANTAS group than what has transpired over the last six months.

Again, to those who are leaving, I wish you and your families well in your future endeavours.

[mates rates]

I heard 6 S/O have gone to VA and I know of several QLink 400 Captains that have been accepted.

[600ft-lb]

And the ExCo are getting exactly what they want. For each who leaves, the eventual redundancy payout gets smaller and smaller.

But you can't blame guys for pre-empting the inevitable, no one wants to be looking for a job along with 400 similar qualified individuals at the same time.

The Management Rowing Race




Once upon a time there was a Red rowing team.
This Red team agreed to hold an annual rowing race with a Green team. Each team would contain 8 men.
Both teams worked really hard to get in the best shape. On the day of the first race, both teams were ready to win.
FINISH The Green team won by 1 mile!
The Red team was crushed in their defeat, but they were determined to win the race next year. So they established a panel of auditors to observe the situation and ascertain if there were any differences between the teams.
After several weeks of detailed intelligence gathering, the auditors could find only one difference; the Green team had 7 rowers and 1 captain...
… and the Red team had 7 captains and 1 rower!
Un-perplexed by the raw data, upper management showed unexpected wisdom: they hired a consulting company to analyze the data and suggest a solution that would enable the Red team to win next year.
After several months the consultants came to the conclusion that the ratio of captains to rowers was the problem in the Red team. Based on this analysis a solution was proposed: the structure of the Red team has to be changed!
Like sharks getting the scent of reorganization blood, upper management wasted no time in restructuring the Red team into 4 Captains, led by 2 Managers, reporting to 1 Senior Director with a dotted line to the rower. Besides that, in a blaze of unrestricted inspiration, they suggested they might be inclined to improve the rower’s working environment by a non-monetary reward and recognition scheme if there was improved performance by the rower.
FINISH The next year, the Green team won by 2 miles.......
The Red team upper management immediately fired the rower based on his unsatisfactory performance.
A bonus was paid to the Captains, Directors, and Managers for the strong leadership and motivation they showed during the preparation phase and as an incentive for them to find a better rower for the next race.
The consulting company prepared a new analysis of the restructuring activity, which showed that the strategy was good, the motivation was great, the restructuring was executed correctly, but the tool used (which was not included in the original data) was sub-standard and had to be improved.
Currently the Red team management is having a new boat designed; and to demostrate fiscal and HR dexterity for stockholders they also outsourced the rowing to India.

[mach2male]

It is difficult to come up with reasons to stay employed at Qantas.
Adversarial,incompetent managment.Lack of career path.Shrinking network.Declining maintenance standards.Lack of job secuirty and complete distrust of management.Depending where you are at in your life and career Virgin may look pretty good.Thats if you want to stay in Terra Australis.While flying in itself is amazing and exciting every day working for Qantas is not

[OneDotLow]

DirectAnywhere said :
We are not seeing older Captains leave. They have no reason to.

I suspect this may change when they start to realise what is about to happen to their historical income derived super.

[BuzzBox]

Frankly, I doubt the Board or even those at senior executive level would give a toss that people are leaving. They would see it as an opportunity to boost the bottom line by cutting the wages bill and to recruit people with lesser experience on lower salaries, no doubt collecting fat bonuses in the process. The subsequent problems caused by reduced experience levels possibly wouldn't occur for a number of years, by which time most of those senior executives will be long gone.

[DutchRoll]

Another organisation has somewhere around 90 Qantas pilots on the books who have been, or will likely soon be, placed in offshore jobs. Some of these jobs (ironically in Asia) are offering more take home money than the apparently grossly overpaid equivalent Qantas pilot rank/aircraft type.

The Board are blind to this. They don't know because middle management don't know. And middle management don't know because many of them have been big enough a***holes that the pilots involved have no inclination whatsoever to even hint anything to them until the resignation letter gets handed in.

[TBM-Legend]

Living in the sandpit beats living in Oz! haha

It is good to see that those who don't like their current employer move on. Opens the place up ultimately for those that do or want to join. This is the free enterprise model at work...

[mach2male]

Of course the great danger for Qantas will that no one of skill will want to replace those that are leaving
This is the free enterprise model at work...

[hoss]

after 5 years in EK (and 2 years command 777) they will be perfect for the 'upcoming DEC contract gigs' at QF:rolleyes:

[labia vortex]

Twenty three year old 2000 hour Captains on $80K~Joyce's dream.Somebody else's nightmare

[roger_ramjet]

What do you mean dream? It's a reality at Qlink right now and has been for a few years now (and will be for some time).

They do a damn good job, some of them can even handle an inflight shutdown and manage it through to a safe landing like the professionals they are.

[Ngineer]

They heydays of experienced pilots and engineers in Australia are dead. These guys can see the writing on the wall (and good on them). Maybe the heydays will return, but only after considerable pain is felt in these professional's absence.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

They do a damn good jobBull$%^t Roger.

If one is to believe what the ATSB reports say, it would appear to me that stick shakers are a form of sport.

I hear the requirements for command have recently doubled and rumoured to increase again shortly.

[upset jet]

90+ going! Any details on the organization, thinking bout dropping a line in and see what I can catch myself

[roger_ramjet]

Tosser... Stick shaker was not a 2000hr 23yr old - quite the opposite.

I'm just saying that age/experience and ability/competence don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[maggot]

We are not seeing older Captains leave. They have no reason to.
I suspect this may change when they start to realise what is about to happen to their historical income derived super.

can you please elaborate?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

I'm just saying that age/experience and ability/competence don't have to be mutually exclusive.

You don't know what you don't know.....

[maggot]

so is that a 'known unknown' or an 'unknown unknown'? :rolleyes:

take the measuring contest someplace else :hmm:

[Gigaboomer]

Shed Dog is right, you can't replace experience, I think that's all he's trying to say. It's got nothing to do with age, it's just that usually if you have lots of experience you tend to be older. And you can't replace experience with university degrees or enthusiasm as much as these things are good and will contribute to eventually making a fine pilot.

It's only when the proverbial hits the fan that a lack of experience usually becomes a player, hence managers et al think they can get away with reducing experience levels for short term financial gain.

[Andu]

They do a damn good job, some of them can even handle an inflight shutdown and manage it through to a safe landing like the professionals they are.Some of them??? ***arkinhell!!!

[TineeTim]

Oh for Feks sake. This is not about whether or not young guys at QLink are any good. Go elsewhere, thanks.

Back on topic, it really is an intriguing situation. As DirectAnywhere pointed out, it's a certain demographic leaving. Virtually all of them would have been able to go to Jet* on LWOP under the MOU if they were interested. Guys are voting with their feet and it may end up biting the 'Group'. It seems 'anywhere but Jet*' may be the theme?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

This is not a pissing competition about Qlink, I believe the Qlink cadetship / experience reduction has been a social science experiment, a beta test if you like, that will certainly effect the big Q.

It could be suggested the onestar cadetship, is the next step, then who do you think is next ?.

This Qlink topic is a lot more related to your issue than you think.

To me, it would appear the company is trying to break the present structure, offering MOU's to onestar, the sand pit, LWOP,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why would they be HAPPY to offer these programs ?. Think bigger picture Tinee.

[V-Jet]

Andu, I understand where you are coming from (as would almost any Qf driver) but please give a thought to guys who worked their butts off to get 'the' telegram/letter from the the best airline in the world saying they had a hold or a start date or a cadetship. All any of us ever wanted to do was to push the thrust up on 34 out of Sydney 'Ladies and Gentlemen, on the right side of the aircraft you should get a magnificent view of the Opera House, Bridge, and Sydney Harbour as we take off for London' on 'the' QF1. Hearing those words said to you for the first time 'Qantas 1 - you are cleared for Takeoff' is an emotional experience.

The 'dream' has been removed by the biggest bunch of incompetent thieves known to the airline industry.

No comment on this thread should be seen as derisory to any other pilot, but for the guys who proudly donned their Qantas uniform (including those militant ties) this is a very sad time.

Allow us a little latitude please. We mean no harm.

It is not even that dream has been removed, but HOW its been removed, and by whom...

[Crusty Demon]

Can someone tell us how many Jetstar people are also leaving for Dubai? Heard they are losing captains as well. A contact up there seems to think the JQ applications are coming thick and fast since QF guys were given MOU commands hence delaying their upgrade time.

[mohikan]

Crusty.

Nice try at $hit stirring.

There have been a total of 4 MOU commands, all on the A320, all out of DRW.

Of the many guys from QF that I know that are leaving, none have mentioned waiting for an MOU slot.

We are more then aware that Joyce wants us run out of the group all together.

Given the massive expansion of the 'amazing business' at the moment, I think that command opportunities for the prime under cutters of Australian aviation are well and truly safe.

[Sunfish]

What is happening to Qantas is called "Hollowing out", its rather like what happens to Eucalypts - smooth and strong looking on the outside until the branch just drops off and you can see that the termites have eaten it out from the inside.

The cause is simple:

- being a senior manager in an airline is a dream job for a narcissist because of the ability to use the travel and upgrade perks to win friends and influence.

- The short term bonus structure constrains them to think tactically, not strategically. All they are thinking of as narcissists is themselves and their immediate gratification, the next bonus and their exit/retirement plan.

- As narcissists, they believe that anyone below them in the organisational structure really is " below them" and thus their welfare and contribution can be safely ignored. This leads to the current toxic state of workplace relations.

- As narcissists, they really believe that they make everything happen as Margaret Jackson famously said, and that their contribution to the airline justifies their remuneration. This is why Joyce gets the big bucks.

- The retirement / exodus of pilots will be highly satisfying to the narcissists on at least Four grounds:

* It reinforces their feelings of omnipotence that people would actually react this way on account of something the narcissist has done - "We have had to make tough decisions, like the savvy business leaders we are, blah blah,"

* It reinforces the group think that the "legacy airline" had to go anyway.

* It removes possible sources of experience and wisdom that might possibly confront and challenge the narcissists - they hate that. The like to feel intellectually superior to their underlings - thats why they are at war with the engineers. The new hires will be inexperienced and therefore easier to dominate. They want their employees to be compliant arse lickers.

* The financial consequences of not having to pay for experience are good, and the new hires will be cheaper.


As I said, I know how this one ends; a tired and marginally experienced Qantas pilot, already dealing with a few maintenance related system failures, stuffs up a landing and comes off the end of the runway. The sweet little Thai cabin crew run for their lives from the fire since saving their passengers is above their pay grade. Remember what happens with Eucalypts, the branch drops off with no warning, often in the gentlest of breezes.

[teresa green]

I know of at least 20 have gone to JQ. I know two personally. Both are F/O's, very experienced F/O's. Because of ageing parents, because of family commitments it is better for them to stay in Australia, rather than chase the big bucks OS, both are saddened that they had to leave QF, but both are glad they got out as well. They know of more who are looking at JQ, for no other reason then they want to stay here, and they believe JQ will still be around for a while, that is more important then the drop in pay. I have one son on the JQ A330, two in QF, and the JQ bloke is far happier and more settled than the other two. The other two are confused, frightened to take on to much debt, re mortgages etc (believe me so am I, guess who will end up paying if they cannot!) and look to me to solve their problem. They are both home bodies, love their friends, their sport, their pets and their family, and this is the human side to this mess, that should not be. If they all end up in JQ, it might be for the best, and I never thought I would say that.

[Crusty Demon]

Sorry my question was how many are leaving Jetstar for the middle east. I have it on good authority that they are losing people as well as Qantas.

[TineeTim]

Shed,

Too obscure for me. There have been cadets at QF since before I was born so inexperienced pilots is not a new thing. The merits, or otherwise, of the QF cadet programme have been done to death.

The unavoidable issue is that AJ is on record as saying QF will not grow for the next 3-5 years. I suspect it will be a fair bit longer than that (how long are the 380s 'deferred' for?) The current pilot surplus is said to be about 150 but I think it's more like 250. They are offering LWOP, MOU etc in a bid to do everything they can to avoid redundancies, not because they're nice blokes but because it would cost big money, be a PR nightmare and probably result in court action. Guys are leaving because they see they will stay exactly where they are, on minimum hours, for the next 5 years and probably longer. Previously, it has been a bit of a trickle of guys leaving. The trickle is getting stronger and many suspect it will turn into a torrent.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Tinee,

The old cadetship was a good thing, the company took the brightest and invested a great deal of money in them. These guys and gals did not have a window seat for many years, but they were/are future Captains.

The "New" cadetship has a clear and concise financial imperative, window seat straight up with, IMHO zero investment in the staff, they are cheaper, more compliant, arse lickers, read sunfish's post, the narcism is there for all to see.

[mohikan]

Crusty.

My apologies. I too have heard many JQ guys leaving for both EK as well as the Chinese carriers.

Theresa.

Crusties question was in relation to Direct Entry Captains. You are right about the 40 or so guys that have transferred to JQ, but only 4 have been captains. The rest have been as F/O's.

[Lookleft]

Mohikan You might be thinking of the four MOU commands going to Darwin but the total number of MOU Commands is about 15. A lot of them have got east coast bases. I got this number from one of the blokes doing his upgrade. The pilots coming over as F/Os are probably the LWOP blokes who don't qualify for the MOU. I have also heard that it is unlikely that more MOU commands will be made available.

[astroboy55]

I have also heard that it is unlikely that more MOU commands will be made available.

The story from qf flight ops is that there will be another 50 it's including mou commands being advertised late this year or early next year.

[Lookleft]

Fair enough I heard my version from JQ flt Ops who are probably the last to know.

[waren9]

Seniority sure is a double edged bitch at times. Maybe pilots need to rethink the benefits for individuals vs all pilots industrywide equation. Maybe we need to think about just how valuable seniority really is? More mobility sure would help pilots be less captive.

Management is a different animal to 30 years ago, maybe there are a few aspects about our profession that also need to evolve to better deal with the way they wish to treat us?

[stainedpantystealer]

Mohikan, dont let the facts get in the way of a good story mate...

15 commands were advertised as open to JQ & QF. 1 was an internal base transfer from NZ back to Aus. The remaining 14 went to QF MOU pilots as follows: 5 SYD, 3 MEL, 6 DRW. The most recent ad of 6 additional DRW commands during late September, has not been published yet, but the word is based on the number of QF guys that applied for the previous lot, these will go to QF too.

I am unsure as to the amount of QF guys that will be starting as F/O's on the bottom of the list (LWOP from QF), but have heard it to be at least 20.

[outnabout]

600lb - the rowing race analogy is a classic!:D

[OhForSure]

I have it on very good authority that the A330 is already short 8 S/O's at present, and the 744 is getting very thin. Divisors are right up there already, and management have not budgeted on all these resignations. They've left no fat. Apparently the A380 and 767 are the only two airframes that have a surplus of pilots. The A380 will not down-train people to other fleets, as it's obviously the only fleet that's growing; and most of the guys that are resigning/leaving are from the 767 fleet.

The word is: projecting forward with forecast retirements and LSL approaching, in 6-12 months time mainline are literally going to need more pilots. :rolleyes:

I've heard this from a few guys now... one of whom has been to a meeting confirming this. Can this be right?!?!? Only at Qantas.

In fact, on ABC News24 last night, they stated that "Qantas are losing a pilot a day on average to other carriers"... if this is true then the floodgates are indeed opening! Good luck to all.

[vigi-one]

I personally believe that most of the young capts at QLINK do a great job and are on the ball.

What i find amazing is that QLink is very short of upgradable FO's yet QANTAS has many SO's (some exQlink) who could easily slot into a command slot without having to leave the group.

I believe that the Northern operation has exploded to the extent that many lines are rostered uncrewed and Alliance will be retained well after the arrival of two 717's onto SSA's routes.

[Capt Kremin]

Qantas has advertised slots internally for 7 A330 SO's. Which is a bit strange as no one can bid for them as the rank is now the lowest for SO's.

I guess they could assign the most junior, but they are all on the A380 where they are required.

Very strange.

[Praise Jebus]

Quick off topic Q. What routes does the 330 require SOs?

[MACH082]

Auckland LA pretty much.....

[Capt Kremin]

HKG, PVG, NRT, LAX plus some SIN.

[Keg]

Good point. Can they do a reduction in numbers off the 744 to the A330 when there are more junior people on the Dugong?

[Stalins ugly Brother]

F&$k, here we go again! More shuffling of the titanic's deck chairs. How much more uncertainty do our junior crews have to put up with?????

[Stanley42]

I've operated with 2 F/Os on the A330 3 times in the last 6 weeks. Obviously S/Os are getting a bit thin on the ground.

[OhForSure]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering Keg. Above and beyond that... the 744 can't really afford to lose anymore S/O's anyway... they've all been shuffled over to the A330 & A380 over the last 12 months. And as previously said, they're surely not going to move anyone off the A380 only to bring them back in 6-12 months time as more aircraft arrive?!?!

S/O 744 divisors ~ 180ish
S/O A330 divisors ~ 175ish

And F/O's operating as S/O's on numerous 330 sectors. :ok: Word is not many PVG sectors for S/O's on this roster... all going to F/O's.

I understand another S/O has left since the vacancy notice came out too... making 8 short... 7 advertised.

PS - 330 also use S/O's for MNL.

[OhForSure]

Stanley beat me to it. :ok:

[Capt Kremin]

I have seen Captains operating as SO's.

[shon7]

Seniority sure is a double edged bitch at times. Maybe pilots need to rethink the benefits for individuals vs all pilots industrywide equation. Maybe we need to think about just how valuable seniority really is? More mobility sure would help pilots be less captive.


Amen. Wonder which airline will be the first to successfully transition from a seniority system to something else and how much support it gets from the pilot ranks.

[FYSTI]

I suspect that those leaving now would be have decided to interview elsewhere due to the lead up to the August 24 D-day announcement. In other words they have been in the departure pipeline for quite some time. The October 29 act of economic vandalism (I am tempted to use a stronger word) does 2 things:
(1) Validates the decision for those who have gone. LWOP will be much more likely to stay elsewhere.
(2) Pushed those wavering to go. Many will now to decide to interview.

In all likelihood the Oct 29 event will probably not even begin to manifest itself in an exodus until February 2012 & beyond . Any current exodus is just a trickle before the flood.

Start drawing up your contingency plans.

[Capt_SNAFU]

S/O's will come from the A380 as they are the most junior. Funny thing is that most of the junior guys where originally to go to the 330 only to be transferred to the dugong. Will just create more churn in training.

[Mafortion]

Keg, if I recall correctly in the last reduction in numbers off the 744, one of the S/Os who was assigned back to the 330 ended up displacing the most junior 380 S/O

[Keg]

Fleet pay for S/Os is looking pretty good to a lot of people about now I bet! Opportunity lost on the rollover! :sad:

[jaded boiler]

Many opportunities lost on the rollover..

[neville_nobody]

Seniority sure is a double edged bitch at times. Maybe pilots need to rethink the benefits for individuals vs all pilots industrywide equation. Maybe we need to think about just how valuable seniority really is? More mobility sure would help pilots be less captive.

No all it will do is open the floodgates to all the expats. It would create the situation where you would have to leave the country just to get the experience to be able to be apply for a command.

[waren9]

Had there been no seniority, the only expats would have been mostly F/O's anyway. Its chicken and egg stuff.

My point exactly. Could a few pilots now get over there own short term interests for the betterment of all pilots from then on?

Sounds not, and we'll all be captive forever.

[CaptCloudbuster]

...... and what's your short term interest Waren9?

[waren9]

Probably much the same as everybody elses.

I just want it debated. There is good and bad with seniority, no disagreement there. Has the worm turned? I personally think it has.

Management and their tactics have evolved dramatically over the years. The pilots have not. How many QF pilots would prefer there was no seniority at Jetstar? Probably many (in their short term interest!) would not. There would have never have been a bull**** MOU for a start.

If you want to play the man instead of the ball Im not interested.

[CaptCloudbuster]

I'm all for debating the issue waren9. No seniority would suit my short term interests just fine. I'd love to give the Leprechaun the finger as I took up a direct entry Virgin Command. Not very fair to all the less experienced and younger FOs over there who are finally seeing their futures brighten though..

So in the interests of context pertaining to your contribution to the debate, would your experience levels permit a DEC in any company in Aus?

Or are you personally willing to have your present career path take an indefinite hit for the betterment of all Pilots

[neville_nobody]

In a small market such as Australia the no seniority rule would destroy the career progression of pilots as it would open up direct entry commands to anyone in the world who has Australian Citizenship or residency. Given that Australia is a favourable place to live, people from all over the world will be shafting each other to get a command. The companies will love it as they will get people with command time on type minimal training required and plenty of people will put in low ball bids just to be able to fly in Australia. Expats can afford a low salary as they are already cashed up, people escaping less favourable countries will be more than happy to take low pay just to live in a safe secure environment. You will then get someone in a management position who will then want all his mates as captains and without seniority there will be plenty of jobs for the boys. As I said above it will create the situation where to qualify for a command you have to spend years in some exotic location just to get the minimums to qualify for a command.

It will be GA all over again.:{

[DutchRoll]

Management and their tactics have evolved dramatically over the years
I don't really agree with that.

They're still just as blinkered and completely clueless as to what is going on at the coal face as they always were. A classic example was Lyell Strambi changing his flight out of LAX at the last minute only to be horrified inflight that there wasn't enough food loaded for business class. Of course, none of the junior managers were forewarned that this would happen, so he got the real Qantas service, born and bred through instigation of KPIs etc, as opposed to the "**WARNING** Group Executive Qantas Airlines is on this flight!" service which would've involved full catering plus a secret stash of extra fine wine taken out of a slush fund held for just that purpose.

And acts of bastardry and selfishness from management have been around for eons and are still enacted upon employees without warning just as regularly now as they were in the 1800s.

It has just become a bit more of a technological and PR game, with modern newsmedia etc. The basics haven't changed much. Shove their noses into the ground while jobs are tight, then wonder in total bewilderment why on earth they're all leaving when jobs are not.

[waren9]

Again, you are both pointing to the short term pains of why we shouldnt. I also disagree with Nevilles major contention, even Jetstars EBA says all pilots shall be offered it on joining. Buchanan wants rid of it, so just negotiate all the protections you want in return for giving it up.

I am an FO that scores well (I'm told) in cyclics so make your own mind up how I would be affected.

Edited to add that if Nevilles concerns were valid there would have been even more Jetstar DEC's. None of them are on B or C scales.

[Artificial Horizon]

Well in the course of my career so far I have operated in two airlines who have NOT had a seniority list aswell as in one legacy carrier where seniority was king. I would have to say my preference is to have some sort of seniority as it gives a structure to the postings and promotions. With no list, everything is very 'murky' when it comes to who is awarded in command vacancies, training places, leave etc... There is always a suspicion that, far from things being awarded on merit, they are awarded on if your used to fly with the chief pilot in a previous life, or if you get on with the guy who interviews you for the new position. I have always done well out of this and twice been offered commands before more 'senior' colleagues. It is just not ideal, I liked the security of knowing when I was going to be eligible for command, even though at the time I was 10 - 12 years away from one. I liked the fact that everyone was given a 'crack' at the command course regardless of people thinking they were 'toss*rs'. Remember that the training department always had ways of ensuring those not suitable received re-education.

The only problem I can see with seniority is it does restrict your ability to move freely between airlines when you attain a certain level, perhaps this is a good thing as flying is one of those jobs when 'stability' in the workforce is important for 'safety' reasons. And at the end of the day I think I should get a better seat on staff travel if I have been in the airline longer than the person in front of me in the que, likewise I remember once I missed out on a first class seat once as I was trumped by a check in staff member who had been in the airline for 24 years as opposed to my 7 years, once again this is more than fair in my opinion.

[Akali Dal]

Together with the other QF thread, all we hear is all the whinging and whining. Face it; most aussie pilots are very insular in outlook with unbelievable self delusional self possession disguised as self belief. Their small theatre of operation with overly conservative operational practices lead to the delusion of great safety; nobody outside of Oz is easily fooled except for the small minded insular aussies who are kept in awe with those chest thumping self proclaimed sky gods.

The time has come for all national flag carriers to embrace total globalisation with open skies, open hiring, etc.

[Capt Kremin]

I fly between NYC and Mumbai. Tell me .... What is your definition of a small area of operation?

[DutchRoll]

Face it; most aussie pilots are very insular in outlook with unbelievable self delusional self possession disguised as self belief.

Akali Dal from India, anyone checked the validity of your pilot's licence recently?

[Akali Dal]

Greatest cheats are Oz nationals, like the recent one at Jet Airways. Hey, watch that roll!

[gerago]

Sad thing Akali is that the cheats in the subcontinent have no back up..your corrupt officers sing when cornered and the guys get caught. Maybe the crabs pulling others down syndrome in play.

The Oz nationals that cheat; different ballgame. Their networks warn them off; like the recent Jet Airways cheat was warned off by his fellows way ahead.

[doubledub]

Akali, how do you reason that overly conservative operational practices lead to the delusion of great safety?? Conservatism promotes safety you ****. I hope Indian pilots don't struggle with basic reasoning as much as you do. Otherwise that would be a real safety concern.

As you're not averse to the use of generalisations, I think you should get back to work, is that a phone I hear ringing???:E

Now back to thread.

[my oleo is extended]

The time has come for all national flag carriers to embrace total globalisation with open skies, open hiring, etc. Of course you would like that, it is the only way an incompetent nimrod such as yourself will get a job. Go back to street sweeping or cleaning goat sh#t off the floors of the local Bombay trains.

Greatest cheats are Oz nationals, Not when it comes to cricket, you would know all about that !

And above all my flying friend, be patient, it is only a matter of time until JQ launch Orangestar India and you get your ride in the right hand seat anyway. Boston Bruce and the Oirishman's dream of a world dominated Qanstar enterprise and empire is just over the horizon !!

[John Citizen]

For you Akali Dal :

Transparency International - the global coalition against corruption (http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results)

Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index)

Australia is ranked 8th in the world, in the "corruption index rankings" table, with a corruption index of 8.7, meaning very little corruption. :ok:

India is ranked 87 out of 178, with a corruption index of 3.3, meaning very corrupt. :=

You tell me greatest cheats are Oz nationals ? :confused:

[Keg]

Another thread derailed by the ramblings of a fool.

[rh200]

must say the fish are biting today!

[DirectAnywhere]

Keg, there's one nice thing about starting a thread...

I'll leave it up to the mods but it would be nice if there was some chance this could get back on topic.

[Keg]

must say the fish are biting today!

Yes. Those that troll forums hoping to 'catch out' people with their flaming ramblings must feel so fantastic that they've managed to waste all of our collective time. Says something about them doesn't it! :ugh: :rolleyes:

[dutch_oven]

In an attempt to bring the thread back on topic....:ugh: are those who are leaving Qantas taking LWOP or resigning completely? Now that EK is accepting QF guys with LWOP, would be interested to find out if people are so fed up with QF they are still choosing to resign.

[breakfastburrito]

Resign or LWOP? Is there really a difference? I suspect EK will dangle the command carrot on condition of a resignation letter so it is really a moot point.

I suspect even those that go on LWOP realise that it is a one way trip. The reality is that to make financial sense EK probably requires a minimum of 10 to 12 years. Taking the EK option also knocks out any possibility of the MOU because the ghost slots will be filled on a first in first serve basis. Missing an MOU now put you down the back of the queue.

So therefore, the choices are relatively simple. MOU, stay and take your chances or join any of the fast expanding carriers in the Asia/ME. Experienced Captains have the additional option of contract work for types in demand.

As has been pointed out, a certain demographic (30~45) can't afford to waste more time on something that may or may not happen for a "legacy lepper" in the Qantas group. This core will move on quickly to try to recover their career. In reality, most of that experience is likely to leave the QF group, and unlikely to return for the foreseeable future.

[TineeTim]

LWOP?
BB covered most of it. Most that I know of going have taken the LWOP option. However, I don't know of anyone that is actively using it as part of their plan. I've heard it described best as an 'insurance policy'. Also, they have all put in requests for LWOP but been prepared to resign if it is turned down. It was pointed out earlier that those leaving now actually started the process before the 24 Aug announcement. I reckon that is spot on. After last weeks events, the number of guys out actively looking will have increased enormously. Unfortunately for them, I doubt they will be able to get LWOP and will have to make the full jump rather than toe in the water.

I'm not surprised to hear there are shortages in certain ranks. I suspect that will continue for the next year or so until the movements all settle down. One resignation a day sounds ominous until you remember that the current surplus requires one resignation a day for around six months........

[dutch_oven]

Can't see Joyce getting too worried about "losing" pilots to LWOP. On the other hand, mass resignations and pilots not returning at the end of LWOP probably would concern management. Hence the interest in the ratio or LWOP vs resignations.

[breakfastburrito]

dutch_oven, fair question. LWOP masks mask managements problems in the short term - gets excess pilots off the books for up to 3 years. But long term I don't see them pilots returning, despite what management might hope.

The sheer contempt with which they have been treated, to then be based in Asia to fly for RedQ? Without offering AU bases, they are just another Asian carrier, apart from money, what advantages they offer former employees?

Pilots won't be coming back to the Qantas group to be based in Asia.

[Yamma]

OK you are a Qantas pilot working for the best and safest airline in the world. For years you have told your mates that went to Emirates how crazy they were and how you are living the dream and you feel even sorry for them having to live in the "desert". A short search of "flying careers at Qantas" on "U tube" you end up watching an interesting take on how great Qantas really is.

BUT...

By staying at Qantas you will probably be out of a job, and leaving early you beat the masses.....


BUT

You will still end up being junior to the mates the have been bagging out for years...DILEMMA hey??

What should I do?!? All help much appreciated:eek:

[MTBUR]

If you're too proud to be junior to your mates, then just stay at Qantas. If you're 100% sure you're job will be gone soon at QF, and you think EK is the best option, then honestly who cares if your mates give you a hard time, maybe you deserve it after what you said to them, and end of the day if you still count them as mates nothing to be worried about.

[fl610]

"What should I do?!? All help much appreciated"

Toughen up princess!:E

[happydriver]

Exodus???........turn it up!!!
100 odd guys/gals leaving mainline equates to no more than 5% of the pilot body, of which I might add the majority have gone on LWOP. Had that not been an option I would argue the numbers would be nowhere near that.

We all have to make our own decisions but I'm starting to appreciate how dangerous "group think" can be!!!

HD.

[-438]

You're right happydriver, it is far from an exodus.
I do believe if many second officers had some real jet time, they would consider leaving QF.
I also think there will be a large number of retirements over the next 3 years.
The fact is the pilot group has never been so disillusioned with management.
The only rational advice to any pilot would be to make the best of your own situation for yourself and your family.
If you can avoid burning your bridges, do so. (LWOP)
It may yet prove to be an opportunity for those who choose to stay and also those who choose to leave.
Remember it is your career and hopefully it will last longer than the present management cycle.

[TineeTim]

We all have to make our own decisions but I'm starting to appreciate how dangerous "group think" can be!!!

Group think?

Are you kidding? How many of these do you recognise:

Jet* won't have more than 30 A/C
QF won't pull out of the Gold Coast
Jet* won't compete with mainline
We don't plan on Jet* flying internationally
Jetconnect will fly only domestically in NZ
We will take delivery of 20 A380s
The A330s will return to mainline

Shall I go on?
I've spent the last 7 or so years thinking "it can't get any worse." For all of those years, it has. Every year. If you're happy exactly where you are in QF, working a bit harder for about the same $, then you're probably going to be OK because there WILL be a lot of retirements and a LOT more of your colleagues will go. But don't tell yourself it's going to get better. Past performance is usually a pretty good indicator of future performance.

[ohallen]

I would have thought that any company would be unlucky to have the last two CEO's that QF has had. Nothing will change until there is an ousting of the current CEO and Chairman.

Strange as it may seem, there are some companies who can evolve without alienating the entire workforce, loyal customers and the govt of the day and eventually thrive.

It is just that the current incumbents don't seem to understand those skills or have a desire to learn them.

While they are there, not one employee group is safe from their follies.

[happydriver]

TineeTim I hear you brother.....as a matter of fact I heard all that the other night at fatty's, then again down at the cave and would you believe I even had the "lovely" girls upstairs at insomnia tell me how unattractive I've become since the grounding of the fleet and if I would mind clearing off so that a real pilot (Insert EK/BA) may come along and sweep them all off their feet...:O

Do you get my drift on "group think".......anyway I don't want to be accused of thread drift, so just to reiterate my beef is with the thread being titled qantas exodus of which there is clearly NOT....well not at present anyway.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do mate. Stay or go I'm rooting for all of us!!!!

HD.

[Keg]

Averaging one a day when the historical number is 30 a year- normally just retirements and medical- sure as hell looks like an exodus to me.

[TineeTim]

HD

Sorry mate, no I didn't catch your meaning.
'I see', said the blind man. You're definitely right. Heard the other day there are a bunch 'worried' they might miss out on a spot..... :(

And, sorry if I came across as aggressive to you. Don't get me wrong, I'm pissed off. F***ing pissed off, but not at my pilot mates. Cheers

[theheadmaster]

As mentioned earlier, the numbers that are leaving now is a result of management actions prior to the grounding. I would hazard to guess that there are pilots who have now reassessed their position as a result of management's recent actions. I would also guess that the outcome of the negotiation/arbitration will push even more towards the same decision.

Emirates are obviously banking on this evidenced by the recent announcement of more road shows.

[DUXNUTZ]

I hear a certain Middle East Airline has got a fair few interviews lined up next week here in Sydney. Good luck!

[Nil defects]

If you are going to come to Emirates the sooner you get here the better. They are looking to add somewhere towards a thousand pilots next year, so to get in ahead of that wave will probably save a few years to command!

[KABOY]

So it's called an exodus at Qantas, but any other airline it would be called pilot attrition. QF has now joined the ranks of other airlines where pilots are leaving for pastures anew.

Wake up and realise that you have now joined the global airline stage, where you are given a job, not a career! Every other airline has experienced this for years, why do you think QF management will be concerned??

Every exit makes way for a cheaper alternative, in Asia they are lowering their pilot costs through attrition!

[kookaburra]

438
'I also think there will be a large number of retirements over the next 3 years'

I can't see it.
A few have/will go after the crap management just pulled.
otherwise I think there will be few retirements over the next few years as there was not 'much' recruitment around 30-40 years ago for many retirements to be coming up now.
Alot of those around retirement age have already gone over the last few years.

Just my thought.

[DirectAnywhere]

Kookaburra, QF has about 250 pilots over the age of 60. Some of those won't go to 65, some are nearly 65 and are facing the prospect of shorthaul or retirement. I reckon most of that number will be gone in the next 3 years.

[Captain Gidday]

MYTHQF has about 250 pilots over the age of 60
FACT. There are 111 pilots on the longhaul bidding list [A380,744 and 767] who are aged 60 or over, including quite a lot of F/Os and a couple of S/Os. That is about 7% of the longhaul workforce. So, unless there are a helluva lot of 737 pilots over 60 [I don't have access to that data to calculate those numbers] the statement "QF has about 250 pilots over the age of 60" is unlikely to be true. MYTH BUSTED

Source : Longhaul pilots' details as displayed in Bidbook. I excluded a couple of simulator instructors on the list who are not coming back to line flying. It is laborious to count, but any pilot with access to the bidding files can check for themselves.

[Wingspar]

IMHO when the settlement happens, negotiated or not, those that were hanging on might not like the new environment.
Sure the over 60's might not amount to much but most are Captains and for every retiring Captain leaves a compounding number of F/O and even more so S/O vacancies.
With numbers starting to get tight now watch the good 'ol QF stuff it up again and be left short!
Impossible to think but historically a proven thing unfortunately.

[TineeTim]

FACT. There are 111 pilots on the longhaul bidding list [A380,744 and 767] who are aged 60 or over

A330?
Just a guess but I'd bet there are more than 50 on the 737 over 60.

[Captain Gidday]

Ah, sorry TT. My typo. The 111 over 60s includes 380, 330, 744, 767.
Wingspar, when one Captain retires, there is no compounding. One F/O is promoted, one S/O is promoted, one new hire.
However, when a fleet increase occurs, for every new Captain two F/Os are required, one for the increase and one to replace the one promoted, then up to four S/Os are required, two to replace the S/Os promoted plus zero, one or two new ones to make up the new crew, depending on type of flying. Fleet increases are a lot more important to the juniorati than retirements, in other words.
Trev at QF is going to have a huge problem over the next couple of years balancing the numbers. No way can they ever get it right with the massive fleet changes underway and they have no way of controlling when and how many pilots from what type and rank are going to walk, [other than restricting the numbers going on LWOP]. There is only so much that can be done with Divisors and assigned leave and the cancellation thereof.
It is going to be a shemozzle and they will be yearning for a bit of engagement and some stabillity before this is over. Fasten seat belts.
Karma trumps hubris, every time.

[Capt Kremin]

One senior captain retiring, on a fleet with stable aircraft numbers, can generate many more than one promotion on type.

That only works however, on an airline that isn't shrinking.

[ABX]

This came in the email today from a non-pilot, it made me smile and I was glad to see that someone found a humourous way to make a good point.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/ABX_album/QantasNegotiations.jpg

[Jetsbest]

A small point of order;
There is also more than one approaching-65yo current-captain asking for and being given FO slots variously on the A330 and A380.

It's a "dogs breakfast" challenge for:
- deconflicting the over-60yo crew complements by the company,
- predicting progression in up the ranks for non-captains, and
- predicting the true retirement point for these pilots who might, for example, more readily lose their medical straight after completing an expensive endorsement.

EEO (ie non-ageism), GFC and the reduction in the value of superannuation are all players in what's going on. Some appear not to be able to retire; poor sods. :hmm:

[DirectAnywhere]

Captain Gidday.

Sorry, my numbers came from a manager some time ago.

Guess I need to be even more doubtful than I am already. Cheers.

[SOPS]

People actually WANT to fly over 65???!!! Dont these guys just want to enjoy a well earned retirement, spend some time with the wife (wives:E) and grandkids and enjoy life?? "You are holding on too tight Mav":bored:

[mohikan]

The 'bid backs' to A380 F/O are of 'heroic' proportion if you catch my drift......

Both individuals have plenty of cash, they just 'love' flying :ugh:

[SOPS]

Ah..now it all becomes clear...just loving to fly to help their.......???? :ugh: (I know the end to this sentence but in fear of a ban I wont type it)

[neville_nobody]

They should be given tickets to the russian ballet. They saw the best of aviation time to move on.

[DutchRoll]

Both individuals have plenty of cash, they just 'love' flying

I actually find it quite sad in a sense that there are individuals who end up at retirement age having developed no interests, no plans, and no desires outside of airline flying. There are numerous ways to actively enjoy aviation activities in a post-retirement world, especially if you have "plenty of cash".

I think if they state that they really don't need the money and love airline flying so much, it should mean a mandatory re-assignment to B767 F/O. That will comply fully with their situation.

[Jetsbest]

Not strictly true. One has been supporting family in crisis through the GFC & health issues, and now has insufficient funds to retire; not a pleasant thing to consider. No doubt the other has reasons too.

I trust they'll 'get it sorted' sooner rather than later, with enough time to enjoy at least some retirement. :ok:

[DutchRoll]

Well in that individual's case, the "plenty of cash" and "loves to fly" allegation is a bit misleading! If you're only working due to circumstances beyond your control, well that's another problem all together and highly unfortunate.

Nevertheless, there are certainly those who fall into the "can't think of what else to do" category. I have met several of them personally. They should go to the 76'.

[Going Boeing]

If they love to fly, why did they go to the Dugong? There's minimal manipulation of the flight controls on that thing.

It's more likely they chose the Dugong because it has the highest F/O salary.

Back to thread, it would be great if someone could post the actual numbers of pilots that have left Qantas this year and how many of those were retirements or LWOP.

[fatmike]

I actually find it quite sad in a sense that there are individuals who end up at retirement age having developed no interests, no plans, and no desires outside of airline flying.

Dutchroll, Mohikan and others, it is none of your business whether pilots want to work until whatever age for whatever reason they chose.They have the legal right to do so whether you like it or not. In years past, there were both industrial and legislated limits on an airline pilot continuing to fly past certain ages in Australia. Australia has moved on for better or worse. Part of that moving on is that we have a lot more female pilots, pilots can fly after having by-pass heart operations, paternity and maternity leave,carbon tax, plain paper cigarette packs, random alcohol and drug testing, GPS, the demise of 87 octane avgas,
You are too transparent like others before you, you want the old fogies to move on so that you can have their jobs. When you get to their age you'll probably be a strong defender of your right to continue.

[V-Jet]

Totally agree FM. If someone wants to have a sad and twisted life, it is no-ones business but their own. And occsionally the poor sap F/O who has to help dig them out of a hole once in a while, as no doubt, they once complained about doing themselves.

[teresa green]

I flew to 65 fella's, had to, had a little interference with the bank balance during 89, four sprogs to feed and educate, sometimes you have to. But after 65, you have had enough, 0200 wake up calls don't excite you anymore, your plumbing could be giving you trouble, and your undercarriage is not what it used to be, in fact nothing is. I used to look with envy at blokes fishing in Botany Bay, and thought stuff this, I am going fishing, never regretted it, the missus found it hard to have me home under her feet, but the dogs loved it, go for it. The other thing to consider is that for some reason some pilots fall of their perch, within a couple of years of retiring, and more are getting dementia early, that is a worry, you need to have some life before you go around the twist.

[Shark Patrol]

TG

Thanks to the toxic gnome, in QF you can now go round the twist while still working.

[mustafagander]

I really don't think any older pilots are bidding to be F/O on the A380. After all they must be under age 65 to fly international and, AFAIK, the Blunderbus does quite a bit of that.

As I hear it, there have been a few bid to be B737 F/O as they approach 65.

[theheadmaster]

There is an ex A330 captain doing A380 training now. I believe the age limit applies to the captain only.

[kookaburra]

So we have guesses of 250 over 60,
longhaul 111 over 60,
more than 50 over 60 short haul,

Not forgetting shorthaul can stay on working and some long haul can move seats/aircraft.
So 200 odd leave in the next 3-5 years at best. 10% of the ranks at best over a few years.
Expansion should be over that. Instead things are reducing.

Any way you put it, I do not believe that many are 'close' to leaving anytime soon.
Go back 30-40 years of recruitment and there aren't many retirements in the pipeline.
Stagnation and few retiremnts over the next few years will not see much of a good career prospect unfortunately for QF seniority numbers.

[TallestPoppy]

What was the retirement age back in the old TAA / Ansett / QF days?

(No, not wanting THAT to start, just a simple question!!)

[Angle of Attack]

As I hear it, there have been a few bid to be B737 F/O as they approach 65.

More like to 737 Captain there are dozens of over 65's on it, in fact one is 69!

[TallestPoppy]

Jeez mate, are you serious, 69 and still working? Flat out around Oz? Haven't they got anything else to do? Jeez, life must be dull back in the old country. Looks like I will be the freak retiring in his '50's

[Shark Patrol]

Tallest Poopy,

You must be management by the twaddle you post here so I guess that's why little ole legendary you is retiring in his 50s.

One last question for you before I again ignore your rantings. If everything is about cost, why are there still five-star hotels in the world that do very nicely? If everything was about cost, then surely the world should just be full of el-cheapo dump motels. The answer is that people will pay more if they believe that they're getting what they pay for. The problem with Qantas is that Dixon and Joyce know nothing but cost-cutting - they want to provide a Jetstar product but charge a Qantas price. Everybody who's out there doing the job has seen it happen over the last decade, but our legendary managers can't (or won't) be told.

Finally, if you really are in Europe, why don't you just annoy them and leave us alone!!

[teresa green]

Sixty TP, but some did not make it that far, as quite a few were ex RAAF or RAF and had rather a unpleasant time during the second world war, (seems crazy doesn't it, but keep in mind, some were pilots in bomber command, aged 19 years.) Their health suffered accordingly, as some had ended up as POW's in Germany. They were a interesting bunch, some as mad as cut snakes, (do you blame them) but Christ they could fly, the rest had a year that was disruptive to their careers, (we won't go there) so very few got to sixty, not in TAA anyway.

[Tankengine]

Qantas was 55 until early 90s. [when a vote was made allowing it go to 60]
Prior to this it was 55 extendable to 58 at both pilot and companies discretion.
Due to Keating's changing of super rules in late 80s quite a few retired at 55 and went to Singair on a 4 1/2 year contract.:rolleyes:
Qantas Div 2 super [and I think Div 1 as well] is finalised at 30 June following 55th birthday.:ok:

It is true that number 1 is on the 737 at 69!:eek:

edited to correct Stark's aircraft [typo]

[Keg]

Stark is on the 737. I don't know how old he is but I think he's well north of 65.

[mustafagander]

theheadmaster,

The age 65 limit applies to both Cpt and F/O in most international airspace for the simple reason that the F/O is in command at times during cruise and ICAO rules don't allow that.

[TallestPoppy]

Teresa and TankEngine, thanks, I thought it used to be 55 or 58. I also recall from my short time, that some guys used to leave early to go to SQ, or to Cathay, with the plan to "retire in ten years with a million bucks in the provident fund".

Shark Patrol, you asked why do I come on to these forums? Firstly I am an Australian living overseas, so it is nice to keep up with what is happening 'back home'. I am not 'management', we just spend our pennies wisely. I yearn to return to Australia, to settle in a country town, listen to the chorus of birds welcome each day, and to feel the warm Australian sun.

I dislike the 'bar room' nature of the Oz forums, where you are praised if you agree with 'the mob' and vigourously shouted down if you query the 'party line'.

I feel passionately that 'the mob' here are failing to think ahead, like good pilots should. Standing around and saying 'replace the CEO', 'remove the Board', 'the spokeperson lies' etc does not solve the current problem. What if the figures QF is saying are correct? Nobody, and it would appear not even the Union, seems to have a strategy. You need to be suggesting alternatives, just denying what QF is saying will not make it go away.

I really hope that the Union is sitting down with FWA and suggesting ways ahead, ways that you can be part of the solution, not as part of the problem. Either way, you can bet QF is sitting down, laying out its plans, making its case. This is the last chance. In two weeks Fair Work Australia may implement the QF future, that you dread.

[Tankengine]

mustavagander,

That is not how Qantas reads the regs, there are over 65 F/Os in longhaul.:hmm:

Then again, they have been wrong before!:E

[Lookleft]

TP being an expat means that you can't keep up with the day to day happenings in the land of your birth so when you make a comment it is from the perspective of an outsider. If you witnessed the press conference when the APA bid was announced then you would have seen GD jumping out of his skin at the thought of all the money he was going to make out of it.

What is happening at QF is a further attempt at getting their hands on the money. Clearly I am not the only person with this view as the Senate Enquiry is demonstrating. Parliament simply wouldn't be wasting its time if it thought that QF was a well run company. The pollies would not have failed to notice the decline in service and the running down of the fleet with all the travel that they do. To them and to most Oz based airline employees what QF management say and what they do does not add up.

If QF are losing 200m on international then they should be investing in the international product, not setting up new airlines in Asia which would seem to be a riskier strategy.

If you think that airline executives are exceedingly clever and must know more about the business than your average dumb schmuck pilot go ask the board of SQ how much money they have made over the last ten years in investing in other airlines. Go ask Brierly Investments how much money they made in their ANZ investment. When any airline is being run to someone else's agenda then the business goes on a downhill slide. The APA bid demonstrated that the long term survival of QF is of little interest to those who want to line their pockets.

On another point, watch Question Time and see why opposing points of view get shouted down. Its the Australian way of having a debate. Get used to it or don't log in.

[redned]

TG,i can assure you pilots werent the only people forced out of work in "that year".Tens of thousands of people involved in the tourist industry and related areas lost their jobs and life savings,thanks to the frigging pilots.My family lost everything in Darwin being in tourism.Nothing heroic about it.

[teresa green]

Redneck, that dispute is over, if we had the time over again, it would not have happened, we are more than aware of pain caused, but like Joyce we could have not imagined what Hawke and Abeles would do, that they would close the airlines down did not enter our collective heads. Insight is a wonderful thing, but like QF in the last couple of weeks, it was not on our radar. I am sorry, truly sorry about your family.

[redned]

TG,after all these years of reading on these pages about "that year"your the first to acknowledge that there was more to the that thingo than the woes of pilots.It had a devastating affect on a large number of people not even connected to aviation.Thank you for that.

[nitpicker330]

Wonderful Red but what did you or your family do to try and resolve the dispute we had in '89?

Blaming the Pilots for all of your problems in '89 is naive in the extreme mate. :ugh:


Why dont you blame the Airline managers for refusing to negotiate at all ( during repeated meetings over the contracts, one meeting in Lorne in particular springs to mind ) or Bob Hawke for helping to make it a lot worse whilst helping his mate Abeles. We all know what their true agenda was. := ( and still is in Qantas )

Grow up and smell the coffee pal.:D

[gobbledock]

Jeez mate, are you serious, 69 and still working? Flat out around Oz? Haven't they got anything else to do? Jeez, life must be dull back in the old country. Looks like I will be the freak retiring in his '50's
QUite a smart ass for a kid who hasn't even been through a mild recession.
Retire in your 50's junior?? Good luck, the global economy will have stripped your super fund bare, no pensions or government handouts will exist, and the cost of living will be so expensive that your pissy little super pot will be as barren as a virgin within a year or two.
Your are truly are a TallestPoppy, one who has very little but cuts down everybody else.
Enjoy the food line.............