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Rollingthunder
3rd Nov 2011, 10:44
A WOULD-BE flight attendant who had applied to Garuda Indonesia recently told a local newspaper that she and her fellow candidates had been subjected to a ''health examination'' by a male doctor that involved having their breasts ''fondled''. According to a Garuda official, the ''hand examination on breast'' was necessary to detect implants, which ''can have health issues when air pressure falls during flights''.

While not a practice common to other airlines, the incident is by no means unique in an industry that has long relied on female beauty and, in some cases, availability, to keep itself airborne.

Now the impending arrival of US drama Pan Am, the latest retro offering to follow in the wake of Mad Men (landing first in Britain, then next year in Australia), might raise questions about how much - or little - conditions have changed in the past 50 years for flight attendants, particularly those with breasts.


In Britain, where the series is to be screened by the BBC next month, the channel is promising to fly viewers ''back to 1963 and the dawn of a glamorous new era of luxury air travel''. Glamorous - and incredibly sexist.

It is not hard to find evidence of what life was like for female flight attendants at the time. Two, Trudy Baker and Rachel Jones, even co-wrote a memoir at the close of the decade - charmingly entitled Coffee, Tea or Me? - in which Baker recalled being sexually molested by a passenger during an emergency landing. After complaining to her supervisor she was told: ''You know, Trudy, we can't have an unhappy, unsmiling stewardess serving our valued travellers, can we?''

This response might seem as archaic as the uniforms, but scrape the surface and the trolley-dolly caricature is still prevalent, thanks in no small part to the aggressively sexualised marketing and recruitment methods used by a broad range of airlines.

In July this year, Thai airline Nok Air posted a recruitment advert for ''beautiful girls with nice personalities'' to fill its cabin crew positions; those over 25 were deemed too old. Last month, a report in The Times of India accused Air India of following a similar recruitment policy. And new airline Thai Smile (operated by Thai Airways) is recruiting a 100-strong cabin crew of women under 24, ready for its launch in 2012.

''The reason for this is simply competition,'' explains Bev Skeggs, professor of sociology at Goldsmiths in London and author of Formations of Class and Gender. ''Airlines want to appear more high-end than their competitors to add value to their service,'' she says. ''To do this, they market their product as luxurious and desirable,'' with youth and beauty effectively transmitting that message.

Witness the Air New Zealand TV advertising campaign of 2009 in which cabin crew were photographed wearing nothing but body paint; or the Southwest Airlines planes emblazoned with murals of bikini-clad supermodel Bar Rafaeli. Virgin Atlantic has famously run £6 million ($9.09 million) advertising campaigns featuring its ''red hotties'' and there is a yearly ''Girls of Ryanair'' pin-up calendar.

Indeed, when the International Transport Workers Federation (ITF), which represents 600,000 aviation industry workers, complained to Ryanair three years ago about the calendar, the airline's chief executive, Michael O'Leary, promised: ''We note ITF's objection to the calendar. Rest assured this has encouraged us to produce an even bigger and better charity calendar for next year.''

Aesthetic labour - when employees' feelings and appearance are turned into commodities - isn't a new phenomenon, and is familiar in retail too. For flight attendants, though, who need to provide emotional support - making travellers feel safe and looked after - there is a ''combination of sexuality and emotionality [that] takes place in a contained and often stressful environment'', says Skegg. ''That combination is explosive.''

Indeed, according to Gabriel Mocho Rodriguez, civil aviation secretary at the ITF in London, the most commonly reported complaints made by cabin crew ''relate to physical contact and inappropriate approaches''.

While a handful of complaints receive wider coverage - such as the allegations that Dominique Strauss-Kahn sexually harassed Air France attendants, or that 25-year-old passenger Katherine Goldberg last month grabbed a male crew member's genitalia and demanded sex during a Virgin Atlantic flight to Heathrow - the majority are made anonymously, and often do not name the airline. ''They are afraid of losing their jobs, which are often payable hourly and on short-term contracts,'' explains Rodriguez.

The ITF has a campaign called Tales of Harassment, which logs all such complaints. They do not make comfortable reading. In one, ''A passenger pinched the flight attendant's bottom when she was passing his seat, touched her breasts while she was serving his meal and, later, stood up behind her, grasped her hips and simulated sexual intercourse.'' In another: ''A male passenger touched my behind. I told him, 'You do that again and I'll slap you.' I asked other passengers to witness the behaviour … you get afraid that you might lose your job.''

For those in the industry, fearful of their job security and entrenched in these sorts of behaviour, it is only on finding a new career that the scale of the harassment becomes clear. Ruth Walford was a flight attendant for Thomson Airways in 2007 and now works as a speech therapist. ''One time I was giving a pilot a lift home and he made it clear he expected us to sleep together.'' She is adamant that this is commonplace. ''Back then, I thought little of it, but if someone treated me like that in my job as a speech therapist, I'd be deeply offended.''

The pressure on appearance continues long after the recruitment process, too. ''Putting on weight is a huge deal,'' Walford says. ''When my friend from another airline went from a size 10 to 12 and requested a new uniform, someone from the administration office left a Slimming World leaflet in her pigeonhole.''

Additionally, most airlines stipulate minimum make-up requirements. Walford says that Thomson demands female crew wear lipstick, blusher and mascara. For Aviation Australia, the minimum requirement is foundation, eye-shadow, mascara, blusher and lipstick. Its handbook even stipulates specific rules for women: ''Have a trim every four to five weeks … Use a good quality shampoo … Use eye-shadow to emphasise your eyes.'' Even specific footwear is prescribed.

''Thomson Airways made us wear flat shoes on the flight but at the end of duty, we had to put on specially issued shoes with heels to walk out of the airport,'' says Walford. Proof indeed that not enough has changed since 1963: in the publicity shots for Pan Am, Christina Ricci and her co-stars, including Australia's Margot Robbie, are all wearing similar standard-issue heeled court shoes.


http://images.smh.com.au/2011/10/28/2737771/hostess_al-420x0.jpg

Been running for two months here.... UK and Sou Pac....please do try to catch up.

easyflyer83
3rd Nov 2011, 12:02
I think it depends where in the World you are. I certainly think there is still that mentality in Asia. Billboards in Thailand this year were full of Air Asia crew showing a little bit of clevage.

But in the US you could be called a sexual deviant for having sexual fantasies about crew as they are generally old or older. In Europe, the image these days is very 'professional'. Virgin is probably the only example where sexual undertones are evident in their promotion but it's as much about the guys as the girls.

Some of the examples you give I don't really agree with.

Air New Zealand. There wasn't 'that' much sexual undertone to their "nothing to hide" promotion. It was primarily done to promote their clear pricing policy and involved employees from most areas of the airline from both sex.

IMO there are nothing wrong with make up stipulations. Most girls/women would wear make up anyway and it's more about just keeping everything uniform and many beauty/grooming products that are more extreme (e.g OTT eye lashes) etc are usually not allowed and red lip stick is banned at many carriers.

Dave Gittins
3rd Nov 2011, 13:18
My experience of United flight attendants is that they remind me more of Nora Batty than Roz Hanby.

On a South West flight a few weeks ago the senior cabin attendant introduced the crew saying the pilots were old enough to be her grandchildren .... which got a PA from the flight deck of "Sit down at the back gramma coz this Boeing is going".

I guess when I was younger I migght have aspired to the hostie, now it's about the service. I'll look forward to Pan-Am when it arrives .. if only for the footage of the 707s.

MidlandDeltic
3rd Nov 2011, 16:37
I'll look forward to Pan-Am when it arrives .. if only for the footage of the 707s.

It's been on here in Ireland for three weeks now. Don't get too excited - most of the external shots are CGI, with 707s taking off like something with a far greater power/weight ratio!

MD

CC Forum Moderators
3rd Nov 2011, 17:08
.


People, before you believe that you are engaging in a dialogue with the person who wrote the opening post; Rollingthunder somehow "forgot" to mention that his post is a copy-paste of an article written by veteran travel journalist Laura Powell.



CC Forum Moderators

Rollingthunder
3rd Nov 2011, 18:14
That is indeed correct. No harm intended.

givemewings
3rd Nov 2011, 22:57
That "Coffee Tea or Me" book was actually written by a male employee & the female names two 'stand in' crew who were used for the publicity tour. He admits to 'embelleshing' a lot of the stories so I wouldn't take anything it says as gospel.

Funny how many media sources quote that book as truth...

grounded27
4th Nov 2011, 02:34
To make the mistake of not understanding the cultural differences devided by time and or country of origine does you or your society no good. Many have attempted to heal the world by their ideals, at extremes mother teresa and adolph hitler.

On the topic of the fictional show "PanAm", it can be picked apart with many views. Some may view it as a portrayal of the glory days of aviation W/O your feminist adjenda. The Jet age (and before) was something that should be respected for connecting continents in a new and great fashion. Why disrespect offering convienance and pleasure as a great offering to society?

Modern day travel is "enjoy your bag of peanuts", if you do not comply with being treated like a primate our govenment has a federal air marshall to subdue you.

TightSlot
4th Nov 2011, 10:32
Sorry, but this subject is something of a red rag for me: I have some previous...

http://www.pprune.org/3708660-post6.html

Ryanair (of course) achieved the ultimate extension of this process when one of their FA's was revealed to have been rather a busy girl (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2323138.ece) on her rest days: It's not easy expressing gratitude with only your eyes, but she (presumably) manages quite well? The official Ryanair response was "What people do before or after they work for us is their business." - Babelfish translates this as meaning "Any kind of free publicity for us is good news".

One of the primary problems with selling your own staff as sex objects is the very real discrepancies that exist between the fantasy and the reality. Not all VS crews match up to the corporate commercial standard, in fact, relatively few. That's because they are human beings, not caricatures - they work, fart, sweat, curse, snore, pick their nose, smoke, drink, wake up in a bad mood and talk crap just like the rest of us. If you're a passenger, the odds are that they probably won't sleep with you, neither will the Ryanair girls nor the Asian Promise FA's - I suppose Edita might?

Mr Body Brain - YouTube

scotbill
4th Nov 2011, 11:43
The only example that I recall of the grass really being greener in another airline did feature Pan Am.
It was in the sixties when turnrounds still permitted crews to eat in airport restaurants. We were enjoying that privilege in a busy Helsinki dining room when we became aware that a hush had suddenly fallen over the entire place.
On looking round we saw a gaggle of Pan Am crew had entered - including two tall blue-eyed blondes with that blue uniform sculpted to their figures. There were guys in the restaurant with their jaws hanging open, forks frozen in space and a wistful look in their eyes.
At this point in proceedings our traffic man appeared to discuss mundane things like weights and fuel. "H-h-have you seen P-P-Pan Am," we stuttered.
"Relax," said he, "They're making a film. The one on the left is Miss Finland 1967, the other is Miss Finland 1966!"

Lukeafb1
4th Nov 2011, 13:41
Scotbill,

Don't know whether this is unusual, but two weeks ago in the BA Exec lounge at ABZ, a complete back end crew were present having afternoon tea.

I.R.PIRATE
5th Nov 2011, 22:36
Pan Am is good enough entertainment, however for me to continue watching it, they will need to get rid of that huge forehead with a little girl stuck to it*. Holy hell, what an irritating little puglet....:ugh:


* the absolutely ghastly miss Ricci that is...

lynn789
6th Nov 2011, 11:00
those who walk long distances in high heels at work should read up about haglunds syndrome, causes sore ankles and is often misdiagnosed:ugh:

bnt
6th Nov 2011, 18:44
I'm expecting a future episode to show us how Ms. Ricci's character stays thin and perky: an addiction to Pep Pills. :}

I'm 3 episodes in, and it's getting more interesting. The show does have its compensations, such as the divine Colette (Karine Vanasse): :E

http://img.poptower.com/pic-59424/karine-vanasse.jpg

vctenderness
6th Nov 2011, 20:50
The BBC should hit back with a new series BOAC!

Featuring stewards straight off the transatlantic liners who had to wear long sleeve shirts to hide the tatoos.

A (real life) steward who would enter the party room and then swing out of the window hanging on to the curtains.:eek:

The 'A' ladies who had been to Cheltenham ladies college and thought the whole thing was a worldwide cocktail party.

Dashing ex WW2 pilots with rows of medal ribbons and good sets of whiskers.

A famous Captain who insisted on being called Captain *surname* Sir and woe betide you if you just called him Captain or Sir. He had to take his suitcase on board every sector and stow it on the flight deck as it had a habit of 'falling under the wheels' of baggage trollies and trucks on the tarmac!:=

Room parties fuelled by alcohol served from all types of container except the one they were sold in.

Jolly japes in hotel rooms such as the one in Moscow which resulted in a chandelier crashing to the floor in the room below.

Round the world trips out west back east which resulted in the whole crew having the flight number , 591, tattooed on their bums.:E

Cost concious cabin crew reputedly frying eggs on up turned travelling irons and walking 10 blocks to save 25 cents on a breakfast in New York. :ok:

Brand new stewardesses walking around a VC10 kicking the tyres on instructions from the Captain as part of their departure checks.:O

But hey ho Pan Am was much more glamorous:}

I.R.PIRATE
6th Nov 2011, 23:59
Love it, sounds like my kinda time....

Don't stop with this one post pleeeeeeze;)

...and gizza pic of that tat you are bragging about :)

Tercarley
19th Nov 2011, 11:24
In the Pan Am series, just where are they staying on slips as I have never ever stayed in a hotel/s like the ones depicted. When did a pilot ever leave the flight deck ( as in Cuba when his girlfriend the stewardess was not on the a/craft) engines started and then spend approx 10 mins at the bottom of the steps chatting about how he really loved her. Does nobody work in economy in Pan Am. What is this new recruit doing working in First as well.

There are lots of flaws in this series so far and we are only at the end of the 2nd episode. Look forward to another helping tonight - it is hilarious to watch!!!!!

crewmeal
19th Nov 2011, 12:11
vctenderness

Ah yes - the imfamous flight engineer on a 747-100 who would pinch the whiskey from the upstairs lounge during the 1st class meal service, only to have it replaced by something else that looked like Glenfiddich, then drinking it in a room party in Delhi! The rest is history!

The 'A' ladies that got promoted to CSD and cause mayhem to the crews thanks to equality.

The VC-10 crew that got suspended for throwing furniture out of the International Hotel (once a morgue) in Tehran.

Praying for a movie to breakdown so bar 3 & 4 could 'refund' passengers!

The list is endless.

RedhillPhil
21st Nov 2011, 16:30
I suppose being young and naive I was rather hoping for a sort of Mad Men in the air. What I didn't bargain for was a load of episodes with story lines thinner than Kiera Knightly's legs. It just as might have been titled "Carry on Pan-Am". I don't know much about airline work but I know what I've been watching is highly unlikely.

TCAS FAN
21st Nov 2011, 18:32
Shame about the apparent technical errors. The episode showing JFK's visit to Berlin showed a LH B707/720 tail in a view from the Terminal Building, don't think that LH were permitted to operate into Tempelhof?

Also apparently showing a 7 hour something flight from Berlin to NYC. A bit optimistic elapsed time, beyond the range of an early model 707, quite apart from the short runway at Templehof!

And a note from personal experience of Pan Am Stewardesses, or "Beanies" as they were known, they always had to share a room with each other, which really p***ed them off as the cockpit crew got a room each. However it did have its rewards for a young single ATCO, one of only two batchelors on the airport and two 707 crews to keep them company during the balmy African nights.

WHBM
21st Nov 2011, 20:31
Also apparently showing a 7 hour something flight from Berlin to NYC. A bit optimistic elapsed time, beyond the range of an early model 707, quite apart from the short runway at Templehof!
Pan Am operated their 707 service to New York out of Berlin Tegel (longer runway), even when the rest of their German domestic service was operating out of Tempelhof.

In 1966 PA77 departed Tegel 1330, Hamburg 1415/1450, Prestwick 1625/1715, JFK 1925. That's 11 hours elapsed.

Tercarley
22nd Nov 2011, 19:55
vctenderness

The steward that used to swing out of the windows several floors up has just died - from natural causes I presume.

rmcb
23rd Nov 2011, 15:42
The show does have its compensations, such as the divine Colette (Karine Vanasse)

I'm fully behind bnt with this one - I am rather enjoying this drivel because (not in spite) of herself. Mind you, it does remind me that I have only travelled with wagon dragons; trolly dollies always work for the opposition.

:(

I.R.PIRATE
23rd Nov 2011, 17:09
Sound like my gig Rmcb...:mad:

G-forceloner
24th Nov 2011, 10:54
Loved the Pan am show, those were the days! Glamorous, poise, fun.

Agree depends on what country you are in, but am also surprised which airline you worked for as recently a very revealing flight attendants bikinis calendar, sale for charity? That definitely gives an immediate impression of what the airline is all about! Say no more!

Tankertrashnav
24th Nov 2011, 17:36
I'm like Redhill Phil - I don't know much about airline work either, and I lack the specialist knowledge to pick out technical mistakes, nor do I think they are particularly important for 95% of viewers (but hear Phil and I shout at the screen if, for example, Poirot travels from Paddington to Bristol on the Southern Railway!)

However, like him I do recognise complete c**p when I see it, and this is, without doubt, the genuine article. Total tosh!

SpringHeeledJack
26th Nov 2011, 05:37
The flight deck crew seem so young, especially the captain, who looks no more than 35 yrs old......:rolleyes: I might be wrong, but wouldn't such captains be in the 50-60 yrs old range bearing in mind seniority and the status involved with the international routes (well that means all the routes :p) ?



SHJ

rmcb
26th Nov 2011, 15:29
SHJ - you have struck on one of the storylines; both the skipper and the FO have histories that require this connundrum be explained...

Just to get a tasteful glimpse of the delicious Colette you have to wade through those histories. :(

overun
26th Nov 2011, 21:34
Couldn`t be bothered to watch another soap until l checked with the professionals.

Read all and will give it a miss.

rmcb
27th Nov 2011, 12:20
Colette is getting less airtime... I feel duped into watching... Eye candy akin to the pusher's first few hits for free... more Colette or they've lost a viewer!

bnt
28th Nov 2011, 20:44
This article (http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/11/28/2286025/pan-am-tv-show-rings-true-and.html) has some comments on the show, from a Pan Am pilot and stewardess who have been together since 1969.
Question: What do you like about the TV show?
Jan: I especially like seeing the large old Pan Am logo and the interior set of the 707 jets. It's more or less correct. The show is set five years into the beginning of the jet age for commercial airlines.

Q: What's hokey about the show?
John: They spend way too much time on the different exotic layovers of the same crew. That would never have happened. The captain also looks like he's 28 years old; in real life our captains were all 45 or older. We had to work our way up. Captains in their 20s were unheard of.
Jan: In those days, Pan Am did not fly domestically - there were regulations - and those eight-hour trips overseas were hard work! We (the stewardesses) were so tired we would just fall into bed. And there's no way the same crew would fly to Paris, Rio, Hong Kong. Nobody flew to three continents that way.

sanjaime
28th Nov 2011, 22:08
:DJohn: I have a friend who was a pilot and he considers the show a comedy

Read more: 'Pan Am' TV show rings true, and a bit hokey, for retired Bellingham stewardess and pilot husband - Entertainment News - bellinghamherald.com (http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/11/28/2286025/pan-am-tv-show-rings-true-and.html#ixzz1f2oTI6Sj)

delta154
2nd Dec 2011, 12:07
Shame about the apparent technical errors. The episode showing JFK's visit to Berlin showed a LH B707/720 tail in a view from the Terminal Building, don't think that LH were permitted to operate into Tempelhof?

Or how about the episode where she tries to meet John F Kennedy in Berlin, and there is a Qatar Airways aircraft in the background? (unsure of aircraft as it was a very brief shot)

overun
5th Dec 2011, 20:13
Tankertrash, for the same reasons l don`t watch Sky`s aircrash investigations.

The last 2% of facts, always wrong, kills it.

Apologies for the hijack.


p.s. lt does look as though the cabin crew gave up, doesn`t it ?

Dawdler
5th Dec 2011, 23:16
I think some of you guys are taking this show too seriously. It is not a documentary, it is basically a soap opera based in the 60's. I take the points about the same crew working together on all routes at all times is not realistic, but it is a PLAY. There would be little continuity if the crews changed every week even though that would be more realistic.

As in any soap, the happenings are telescoped into a short period and perhaps more of them occur than in real life, such is the way of a TV series. Those of you in the UK will know the British soap, "Emmerdale" ostensibly about a small village in Yorkshire. There have been more people killed in one way or another in that small village than in many a large city.

Just sit back and enjoy it for what it is a bit of light entertainment.

Mr Optimistic
27th Dec 2011, 10:02
Well my last (and only) recollection of Pan Am was flight from LAX on a standby ticket in 1979. Even then their CC had the reputation of being the oldest in the business (one would like to think that they equated experience with quality of service.....)

However, that trip was memorable for a 'Dirty Harry' type LAPD officer sporting some sort of long barreled magnum whilst trying to chat up the check-in staff (he clearly thought size did count) and a disgruntled US customer jumping on to the desk to shout that he would never use Pan Am again. Can't remember what caused the mayhem (having spent the day in the bar waiting) but glamorous it certainly wasn't.

sevenstrokeroll
24th Feb 2012, 23:03
I might have missed it, but no one seemed to notice that in the images of the plane, the navigation lights are incorectly installed. In most, not all, but most of the scenes of the plane, the LEFT WING (PORT) has the GREEN LIGHT, and the right wing, (starboard) has the red light.

AS we all know, the correct way is PORT WING =red light, Starboard Wing = green light. AS a pan am pilot told me in ground school in 1975...just think: PORT WING PORT WINE.

I did call the production company and in some later episodes the problem is rectified.

I agree that the little french girl, Colette, sure is nice. I also agree that the short one with the large forehead annoys the hell out of me. the two sisters are nice and I think the best looking one is the one that is being turned into a spy. (Kate).

natrually, I think of myself as Ted...the copilot...he is the better pilot between the two and at least is complying with seniority.

grounded27
25th Feb 2012, 05:30
Ahh, P.C. has destroyed the males expectation of having a Stew fitting the show's example, it's success is an honest example of a real market desire. Asian and S.A. airlines still have expectations of appearance that extend beyond your uniform, hell as a guy I like it.