Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

[Ichiban]

Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee (Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011 - Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011) (HMS 12)

Friday, 4 November 2011 9:00 AM - 4:00 PM

Canberra

Live Webcast: http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/eventdetails.aspx?eventid=2236609

Hearing Program

0900 Qantas Group. Alan Joyce & Bruce Buchanan

1030 Virgin Australia

1130 TWU. Tony Sheldon

1215 ALAEA. Stephen Purvinas & Peter Somerville

1400 AIPA. Barry Jackson, Richard Woodward, Dick MacKerras

1445 Ms Monique Neeteson-Lemkes. Jetstar Cabin Crew

1530 Dept of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations

1615 CASA

[The Kelpie]

Regarding the inquiry hearing tomorrow.

The Kelpie has a portfolio of information which i will not hesitate in sending to the Committee and Senator Xenophon if I witness any contempt. Just like i did with the Sham Jetstar Cadet contracts

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[esreverlluf]

Good work - stick it to 'em dawg.:ok::ok::ok:

[Kharon]

Cheers Kelpie - no popcorn, no sir.

Beers, prawns and if the Senators get serious; dancing girls all around.

More to follow - I hope so. :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[The Kelpie]

No Worries!!

I am just a little dissapointed that Chris Bowen's Department of Immigration did not get invited to the party to be asked the question of why his Border Security teams continue to allow foreign CC who have entered the country and passed through immigration and customs to work as cabin crew on domestic flights without a visa which confers work priviledges.

This goes to the heart of why the Immigration Act exists.

You do not need to go looking for them as they are right under your nose every day at the airports where the border security teams are based!! Perhaps that's the last place you look??

We will see what questions bget asked tomorrow and what the responses are.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[bandit2]

ALAEA, TWU, AIPA go get em'. Best of luck to you all.

[Short_Circuit]

Link to live broadcast 0900 start today.

Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/eventdetails.aspx?eventid=2237043)

[Sunfish]

Perhaps someone might like to look at the Qantas AOC and the requirement to provide REGULAR public transport. That means in accordance with a published schedule.

Why hasn't CASA given them a "Show Cause" notice?

[ejectx3]

Any ideas how to listen when I'm away from home with iPhone + 3G coverage? Those links don't work on iPhone.

Edit: it's on sky now

[Utradar]

Why hasn't CASA given them a "Show Cause" notice?


Something about damaging the National Economy?

[crow17]

Live on ABC 24 now.

[ACT Crusader]

ejectx - download the ABC app and then you can watch the ABC24 live feed.

But I'm guessing tha ABC24 won't cover the whole day, probably just the QF and J* evidence

[another superlame]

That man is Mr Teflon, crap slide right off. So far nothing has stuck.

[Cookie7]

Although I do like the fact that AJ keeps looking around for one of his mates and no one is willing to back him up, then in came OW with a scrap piece of paper stating "fact" about new a/c delivered to Q domestic this year.

AJ is seeking to take many things "on notice" or "further clarification from another board member".

another superlame, saying AJ is Mr Teflon is far too nice!

[craigieburn]

Is it just me, or is anyone else getting sick of da liddle man using the word amazing?:yuk:

[ejectx3]

Needs subtitles, like the hitler video

[V-Jet]

He is a very accomplished 'obfuscator'..

Core expertise is getting to management topics he is comfortable with.

His face goes bright red when cornered.

Unfortunately the questioners are not competent to ask with authority as they do not know enough to know. They are politicians, not legal experts.

[piston broke again]

Getting hammered by bob brown!

[teresa green]

Onya Kelpie, if you are anything like the real thing (I have two kelpies) you will be relentless. Go get em mate.

[glekichi]

Joyce just admitted the reason for the lockout was to be able to ground the airline, not the other way around.

[teresa green]

On Sky now Guys.

[wishiwasupthere]

As much as I despise Bob Brown, go you good thing! Keep at him.

[600ft-lb]

I couldn't believe when he was asked to stay longer

I have a flight to catch so I have to go by xx:xx

He works for an airline with a lot of flights every day to Canberra, shows how much respect he has for the process.

But he's getting a bit ****ty now with some non gimme questions that Bob Brown is giving

[V-Jet]

His tactic (as would anyones be, I guess) is to focus on minutiae as quickly as possible and go into as much detail as possible to chew up time on items he is confident with.

He will be watching a clock thinking, 25 more minutes, 20 minutes, 15.....almost there..almost there.

Needs professional questioning.

Very significant he stated technical representation is 'very very rarely' at board level.

[wpax]

When AJ says that "we do our heavy maintenance here", what about the A380s? I thought they go to Lufthansa Technik for their maintenance.

[600ft-lb]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8140/noticetolames.jpg

Just remember the above - and what is currently being said about timings.

[teresa green]

He is sweating bigtime

[piston broke again]

Nick Xenophon smiling in the corner...love it.

[cvrurass]

i must agree brown nailed him. when will criminal charges be laid?

[packrat]

The problem for Qantas is that is is currently run by a CEO and board that are driven more by an ideological obsession with management prerogative than by any understanding of the emerging workplace of the 21st Century. This last act of lunacy is just the last in a long line since it's privatisation. I personally don't give a rat's arse if it disappears tomorrow so long as the staff can get jobs with another airline that will treat them as valuable assets of the company, not liabilities to be got rid of.

[600ft-lb]

I think joyce just got checkmated by senator cameron.

[ejectx3]

Who is the senator who sounds like Sean Connery? Senator cameron? What's his background?

[Cookie7]

That would be Doug Cameron, who just said AJ is squirming like Former President Nixon out of answering questions.
To which AJ said to Senator Cameron, "this is like a McCarthy trial" (read as McCarthyism).

[ejectx3]

Thanks cookie I did edit my question and added his name after hearing further. Cheers for your reply .

[cvrurass]

luv to see him squirm. what happens now?

[wishiwasupthere]

Sen Cameron - 'I wonder if your $2 million pay rise was a bigger distraction for the pilots'. :ok:

[2b2]

Get to the point Cameron!!

[ejectx3]

Livvy is running around more than an Olympic relay runner.

I'm loving Euan McGregor here..

[Cookie7]

Senator Cameron? What's his background?

Answer below from wikipedia

Douglas Niven Cameron (born 27 January 1951) is an Australian politician and trade unionist. He has been a Labor member of the Australian Senate since July 2008, representing the state of New South Wales.
Cameron was born in Bellshill, Scotland. He was first elected to the Senate at the 2007 federal election. He won Labor preselection by mounting a successful challenge to then incumbent Senator George Campbell. Cameron previously served as the national secretary of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union.

[aroniyang]

lol joyce "i'm the only CEO to have made myself available here' buchanon: -.-

[ejectx3]

Thanks a lot. I was expecting you to direct me to this link

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Senator+Douglas+Niven+cameron

[teresa green]

Cameron was a Merchant seaman, a officer I believe. Who ever he is, I would like to buy him a slab. :D

[ejectx3]

Agreed. What a champ

[Cookie7]

Nope, I'm not a smart arse, like those :ok:

Final comment from Sen Cameron (to AJ) before ABC24 changed over, "you're a rogue employer!".

[cvrurass]

i am tired of the media defending a company that wants to use cheaper labor. what ever happened to yu get what you pay for?

[MACH082]

You're a rouge employer hahahahaha

Gold!

[ejectx3]

It was qantas' "intention" to never eat into qf flying with Jetstar. Intentions mean nothing.

[cvrurass]

our senators did a fine job in the first round. keepup the good work. looking forward to the return visit for AJ.

[Tankengine]

Looks like the next Senate election may get my first ever Labor candidate vote!

Abbott's dithering this week will hurt him.:E

[adsyj]

Serious question.

Apart from letting everyone see what an inept operator Alan Joyce is does the inquiry have any teeth. In other words what happens at the end of it all.

[nitpicker330]

Good watching Joyce squirm :ok:

[tmadam]

Brown to Joyce, re grounding vs lockout: "You've had a big stick behind your back, and you haven't shown it to anybody."

[teresa green]

The next thing that will happen is the Journo's will smell blood, and go after him, and possibly the board. If they hound him, he could crack and go, its all in the lap of the Gods now, he was a shattered man this morning, and Cameron has not finished with him yet nor Xenophon. But who was the bloke putting out the dorothy dixers, the nice little questions? A stooge?

[GAFA]

I noticed AJ said that theory's of Jetstar replacing Qantas domestic were not true. Well what about Jetstar replacing Qantas to the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast? And I'm sure there are other routes that have been replaced.

[ejectx3]

I like the tone of questioning that suggests the senate doesn't believe Joyce has no intention of shrinking mainline and hopefully the need to enforce that

[adsyj]

Yeah I did wonder why that bloke sent down a handful of dollies. He didn't seem to have any grasp of the situation at all.

[ejectx3]

It was mentioned a pilot rang a senator during the hearing to describe being alarmed mid flight re the grounding. How do we ring them mid enquiry? I'd love to coach with a few questions on the fly.often they are on the right track but need prompting to deliver the knockout question.

[gobbledock]

It was qantas' "intention" to never eat into qf flying with Jetstar. Intentions mean nothing.
The art of Deflection 101 !! 'Intention' and 'intent' are phrases very popular amongst bureaucracies, executive managers and general bull**** artists.
E.G, CASA will speak of a regulation and say 'the intent' of the reg. In other words they won't be specific with what is required of you to meet the reg, and when you implement a process based on your understanding of the reg which absolutely is not clear in the first place, they can still ping you by saying you are wrong because 'that is not the intent of the reg' according to them. It is merely word obsfucating bull**** designed to cover the ass of the big player and burn the little people to the ground in an unwinable situation.

NOTE TO ALL POLITICIANS !!
To all the spineless, weak, lying, trough dwelling parasite Pollies - Please observe the actions of messrs Brown, Cameron, Xenophon, Heffernan, even Katter.
These politicians act to the best of their ability to seek the best interest of their constituents first. They understand what they are paid to do, represent the people and not bend over and grab their ankles for influential business leaders and other power brokers.

Top work, you get my vote :D

[Fruet Mich]

In the mean time Joyce and Qantas continue to give all of Qantas international profitable flying to Jetstar. No wonder Qantas international are not making a profit, because all the profitable routes are being gifted to Jetstar. This would also explain the continual decrease in market share for Qantas and increase for Jetstar. Net result, a continual decline in company market share because customers get pissed off with Jetstar and move to a quality carrier who are still doing the routes that Qantas used to.

I love how they recently took the Boeing 747 (with high load factors) off the Auckland-LAX route to replace it with a medium haul aircraft that is not suited to that run. The loads now are dismal. Manipultion at its greatest!! Next year, they will claim that Qantas are not making money on the route and el presto, Jetstar takes it over!

He has the gift of the gab this little Irishman. They want to fix the Qantas business? Then give the profitable routes you gifted to Jetstar back to Qantas would be a start. I see the SYD-ZQN flying is shortly going to Jetstar. Again more profitable Qantas international flying going to Jetstar. No wonder Qantas international find it hard to make a profit.:ugh:

[breakfastburrito]

Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011

November 4, 2011 - Part 1
As the Kelpie would say, more to follow...

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[glekichi]

I just wish Tony would answer one question directly without changing the topic. It's getting embarrassing.

[ohallen]

Will be interesting to see how the 2000 rooms in LA pans out. Just a normal day for QF so if that is correct, we know where some of the $200m is going if that was just one night.

This was on top of UK and Singapore.

Hope the Senators dig around a bit and dont just accept the formal booking because as we all know there can be a few interim steps.

This alone showed how these guys think the public are stupid and will just accept what they say.

[gobbledock]

Brucey's answer to Senator Xenophon's request for rosters for Oct/Nov was interesting? Brucey kept raising the point of 'average hours'. Well the Senator wasn't asking for averages Bruce, he wants specific individual roster's for Oct/Nov.
May I suggest that the Asian crew's quickly grab any original rosters they have and send them through to the Senator's office, just in case the rosters are changed within any data bases.

Alan's answer to the Senators question as to whether he had any thought of grounding the airline at the time of the AGM was interesting, as AJ answered 'no'. So how could one change their mind (knowing the subsequent risks that are inevitable when such a hefty change is actioned) within less than 24 hours? And how could a risk assessment, even an impact assessment have been adequately, safely and effectively undertaken by relevant stakeholders and then signed off and agreed upon, all within a few hours?
Draw your own conclusions, but this requires urgent scrutiny.

[teresa green]

Whats with the CP and the C Engineer giving advise on the mental state of pilots and engineers on hearing the news? Did they think they would roll around on the floor with laughter or take the crash axe to the aircraft? Did it occur to either of them that both groups would act as intelligent human beings, they would digest the info, get in touch with their unions to find the facts, and then act correctly without using the crash axe (not on the aircraft anyway). And that is his reason for not notifying anyone???????????????? No wonder Cameron is bemused.

[breakfastburrito]

Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011

November 4, 2011 - Part 2
more to follow...

HbKmB-FFpFU

[Mr.Buzzy]

This is all just a huge stage-play!

This whole mess has been rehearsed by the well paid actors for years!

"OK Joyce, make a menace of yourself but let us cook you on TV so we can take some heat off the carbon tax and mining tax."

We are all being played for fools. This is just like watching "Titanic" we know how it's going to end but we are enjoying, celebrating/rewarding the fine performances as the tale unfolds.

Sickening!!!!

Bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzz

[ACT Crusader]

This is all just a huge stage-play!

This whole mess has been rehearsed by the well paid actors for years!

"OK Joyce, make a menace of yourself but let us cook you on TV so we can take some heat off the carbon tax and mining tax."

We are all being played for fools.

Bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzz


I'm with ya Mr Buzzy.

Despite others views, I was somewhat appalled by some of Senator Cameron's behaviour. Using parliamentary privilege to defame Qantas as an employer and then defaming Freehills. It’s just poor taste in my view.

Sure I’m all for making someone “squirm” as a result of the decisions they make and getting passionate about the situation. I’ve watched from very close range plenty of parliamentary proceedings over many years, and I don’t even mind a bit of raised volume, but Senator Cameron was over the top, when there was no need to. There were plenty of questions to be asked of AJ and BB that could make them feel the heat.

Anyway back to the hearing, Fed Sec gave a personal story as an opening statement.

[teresa green]

Now go to Apac on sky or on free to air. Engineers on.

[ejectx3]

I've lost my ability to view, can someone post more tube links please?

[gupta]

Live feed:
Parliament of Australia (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/mediaplayer.aspx?mediaURL=http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/asx2/hms12v_100K.asx&CaptionFile=&CaptionTitle=Rural) Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee (Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011 - Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011) (HMS 12) //n//r Friday, 4 November 2011 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM&type=1

[ejectx3]

Sadly iPhone won't play it, and with only 3G coverage can't watch on abc app...,

[planedriver]

I used Skyfire app on iphone- can view live from The Age website

[airsupport]

Been watching it most of the day, shame the ABC keep leaving it for other news etc, especially just now when Steve (Fedsec) was doing so well.

Loved it when Bob Brown was giving AJ such a hard time, noticed how AJ starts to stutter sometimes, when a question is asked that maybe he was not prepared for.

[Animalclub]

Just a couple of points...

Will be interesting to see how the 2000 rooms in LA pans out

Could hotel bookings include those booked through Qantas Holidays?

Sen Cameron was carrying on about the flow on effects of Qantas grounding the airline. Is it any different to the flow on effects of Union activity grounding the airline?

No, I don't work for Qantas and I am on the side of the employees.

[Yawn]

I think the Senate Enquiry is very bias against Qantas.

Predominantly, Labour Senators from a Trade Union background driving their own agenda. They are are just upset that THEIR Fair Work legislation could be used in this way. In many ways the questioning and then talking over the answer has been disgraceful.

At the end of the day Joyce represents the owners of the airline and is acting the best long-term interests of the business (his job). The trade unions represent their member’s short-term interests. After listening to the responses of the Senators and the Union Leaders, I don’t think they have the intellect to deal with the complex number of issues facing QF management.

As for the timing of the grounding: The best time to ground from a booking and revenue point of view is Saturday, particularly during a week preceding a short work week. The all-important financial indicator is Revenue-per-departure.

So look at the perfect timing of the two days of grounding:
• Saturday afternoon: low volume, very poor yield
• Sunday morning: low volume, low yield
• Sunday afternoon: high volume, low yield
• Monday (with a public holiday on Tuesday): high volume, low yield

I look at the today’s action like this:
• Joyce outplayed all there (and on PPRUNE) and some don’t like the fact they have been out thought
• Goes to show the enormous complexity of running an airline BUSINESS.
• Asymmetric warfare is usually the play of the small player such as trade unions and freedom fighters. Everyone is upset about a massive company (or one CEO) being courageous enough to implement their own version asymmetric warfare

My final thought:
• Joyce worth 2m plus a promise on Friday 28 October.
• Joyce worth at least 15m on Friday 4 November

BTW, Tony Sheldon’s news conference is just poor and low brow. He just cannot think about complex issues.

Yawn

[Tankengine]

Yawn,
Alternative to your thoughts :

Joyce working for himself in the short-medium timeframe.:suspect:

Union members acting in the long term interests of the airline [keeping their jobs]:D

NOT grounding the airline would be better!:ugh:

Yeah-perfect timing, while CHOGM is on and just before Melbourne Cup.:rolleyes:

Joyce is PAID millions, he is not WORTH them.:mad:

I raise you 2 yawns. :zzz::zzz:

[Yawn]

Tankengine, my thoughts:

Joyce working for himself in the short-medium time frame...He is correct, his best short-term outcome is to agree but this would be the wrong long-term option.

Union members acting in the long term interests of the airline [keeping their jobs]...Incorrect, there are many times during the life-cycle of a business where the strategic option is to reduce costs to survive. A company is a thing that should be greater than the assets, marketing, employees and management.

NOT grounding the airline would be better! Agree...but going broke would be much worst.

Yeah-perfect timing, while CHOGM is on and just before Melbourne Cup...All low yield events. Better to upset CHOGM than the high yield corporate clients who are your bread and butter.

Joyce is PAID millions, he is not WORTH them...I have never really liked him..until now. I think he has been masterful.



My final thought for you: I flew the last Ansett flight to return the displaced pilots and FAs back home (as F/O): BNE-SYD-CBR-MEL. All very emotional, lots of hugs and crying. I hope you never have to fly such a flight.

[Capt Claret]

As an instructor in the mid 80's I took a group of student pilots to the QF Jet Base at Mascot, for a tour of said facility.

At the time QF (pre merger with Australian) boasted a world leading engine maintenance facility, and if memory serves, they also boasted the world record time on wing of 747 engines (Pratts back then I think).

QF can no longer make such claims, or sadly, boast much in the way of world leading. This fall has been overseen by management, who don't seem to me to have the best interests of the company at heart. It seems much more like they have the best short term interests of their own bonus and/or pay rise at heart, and the long term future of the organisation and the bulk of employees, gets nary a look in.

Further it seems that QF is being positioned by successive management groups to be plundered as Ansett was under TNT/News Corp.

Australia loses. :{

[allthecoolnamesarego]

The two jetstar F/A's were great. Bravo to them for the strength to get up there.
Well done!

[b_sta]

Jeez, their stories were a shocker weren't they (in terms of QF's total lack of assistance). Courageous indeed.

[Tankengine]

Yawn,
Sorry but you sound like an MBA student.

You will need to work on English skills, grammar etc. :8

[sierra5913]

I was just shocked at what they were saying.

I hope the senators were just as shocked as I was.

[MR WOBBLES]

Hats off to the Jeffstar F/As, even low cost is not low enough.

[osmosis]

Ye Gods and little fishes; someone's actually posted a thoughtful post on this vitriole fuelled thread. May the balance return.

[breakfastburrito]

Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011

November 4, 2011 - Part 3
more to follow...

v-8Fv4UzwJk

[Archer2002]

It amazes me that these geniuses that are paid in the millions always revert to cutting costs, no matter what the industry or business is. Anyone ever think of increasing income or is that just too hard? just a thought.

[teresa green]

Oh dear, oh dear, ALL the dirty washing came out today. Did the AIPA get to talk, trying to keep up with it with it all. Never in my long time in Aviation have I heard such ball breaking stuff come out. The JQ flight attendants were excellent, but I would be putting in for a interview with Virgin right now, or making sure their luggage is securely locked, (the old alcohol found in bag trick, unacounted bottle missing from on board, so popular with management, trick), Steve was excellent also, told it as it is. The QF spin dept, will be spinning like a top right this very minute, with more to come, I suggest you get more popcorn for tomorrow. Oh how I love to see management squirm. Much as I hate to say it, the Labor/Greens have just about won themselves about 45, 000 votes today.

[Jetro6UL]

Those JQ flight attendants deserve a medal....someone please send them one on my behalf.

Tks for the video's BB. SP's answer to Senator Abetz wrt SP's "bodies down the river" quote was absolute gold......looking forward to seeing it again!!

[Ken Borough]

Will someone, anyone, tell Woodward from AIPA that there's not a "Y" in Australia?

[rh200]

Union members acting in the long term interests of the airline [keeping their jobs]That would be in the best interests of the employees then, that does not have to be the airlines. In a lot of cases this is the case, as a happy employee is a productive employee. But there are times when that is not the case, and its just antiquated jobs for life attitude.

What is it like at QANTAS, I have no idea, as usual in cases like this the two sides are to close to the issue to be able to make a cold unemotional judgment. As has been said a few times in the media the last few days, "do we need a national carrier?", would we better served with a few solid well run completly independent carriers?

[BNEhostess]

Mr Joyce was questioned about the decision to ground the entire Qantas fleet last Saturday.
Senator Xenophon asked him whether he envisaged, last Friday at the company's annual general meeting, that he would ground the fleet a day later.
"I didn't have any view on the prospect of it," Mr Joyce replied.

Read more: 'My decision absolutely': Joyce takes responsibility for Qantas grounding as he hits out at proposed bill (http://www.smh.com.au/business/my-decision-absolutely-joyce-takes-responsibility-for-qantas-grounding-as-he-hits-out-at-proposed-bill-20111104-1myle.html#ixzz1ciG5N6Qd)

Well that's interesting... Why did Samantha Taranto (head of QF Cabin Crew) send Cabin Crew managers upline on Friday afternoon?? Apparently, the managers were sent to SIN, LAX (and others) on a last-minute basis on Friday afternoon. They were unaware of why they were going, but knew it was something big... After the announcement of the grounding of the fleet on Saturday, those managers were then made available for communication and support for cabin crew stuck upline. Curious...

Any flight attendant who was listening to Crew Voice over the weekend could verify this.

[breakfastburrito]

Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011

November 4, 2011 - Part 4

I don't have any material from the afternoon session. If anyone has a recording of the afternoon session, please keep it and PM me so we can get it posted up.


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[Ken Borough]

No, so where would you like me to start? If it's all very well for some to sling off and satirise the Irish accent of Alan Joyce, then the poor diction and Australian accent of an AIPA rep must also be fair game. :ok:

Having read through this thread I must have been watching another Senate hearing involving the same players. I can't believe that so many are so blinkered. :ugh::ugh:

[BNEhostess]

Mr Joyce was questioned about the decision to ground the entire Qantas fleet last Saturday.
Senator Xenophon asked him whether he envisaged, last Friday at the company's annual general meeting, that he would ground the fleet a day later.
"I didn't have any view on the prospect of it," Mr Joyce replied.

Read more: 'My decision absolutely': Joyce takes responsibility for Qantas grounding as he hits out at proposed bill (http://www.smh.com.au/business/my-decision-absolutely-joyce-takes-responsibility-for-qantas-grounding-as-he-hits-out-at-proposed-bill-20111104-1myle.html#ixzz1ciG5N6Qd)

If the above is true, then why were a number of Cabin Crew managers sent upline, last minute on FRIDAY afternoon? After the Saturday afternoon grounding of the fleet, those managers were made available for information and support to longhaul cabin crew who were stuck upline...

This definitely happened.

[Shark Patrol]

You Ken, of course, are the pillar of objectivity!!

[bankrunner]

Ken, are you a kiwi by any chance?

---------------

(DELETED)

No Mate. We aren't going there. It has nothing to do with Qantas or aviation! :=

Tail Wheel

[Cookie7]

Senator Bob Brown did say something to AJ today during the Senate saga; "you've had a big stick behind your back and you haven't showed it to anyone".

Maybe Senator Brown was onto something......

[SimonBl]

breakfastburrito, many, many thanks for recording these and making them available to view after the event. I haven't been able to watch today and look forward to doing so tonight when I get home. I also hope that someone recorded this afternoons sessions.

[ejectx3]

Yes thanks, love to see Jetstar flighty testimony

[Yarra]

Goblin "A mischievous, ugly, dwarf like creature"...with an intellect to match it seems...:8

[Tankengine]

Ken,
Many of us have inside knowledge.:E

It is spotters like you who have been blinkered by the company spin!:rolleyes:

[insertnamehere]

He said his plan to turn around international Qantas operations would take between 3-5 years to work, after which the profits from the Asian venture would be used to fund the re-expansion of international.

The above is from Ben Sandilands.

You know what this reminds me of? That South Park episode with the underpants gnomes.

Step 1 - Steal underpants
Step 2 - ?
Step 3 - Profit!

My 2c

[bandit2]

After watching the inquiry, considering how AJ kept saying it was his sole decision to shutdown QF. The pitiful lies & overall piss poor leadership. I`m wondering if he is happy to cop the criticism etc, get the boot back to Ireland, BUT the Board lives on?????? I`m sure a couple more zeros will be added to his bank account.

Makes me wonder who is waiting in the wings to be CEO? What is the master plan?

Overall if we get through this on a positive note. I`ve got a whole new respect for the Labour party & a total disrespect for the Liberal party & Management in general.

[adsyj]

Hey Ken

Find a spotters board and stop trolling here where peoples livelihoods are at stake
Forum: Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) (http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner-52/) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 21st Feb 2008, 18:28 Replies: 59
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/thread_hot.gif How to use the scanner (http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/259385-how-use-scanner.html)
Views: 8,703
Posted By Ken Borough (http://www.pprune.org/members/188768-ken-borough)
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon5.gif Sydney Frequencies (http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/259385-how-use-scanner-post3927156.html#post3927156)

Does anyone know where there's a list of Air/Ground/Air Company frequencies used by airlines at Sydney (YSSY/SYD)?

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. :ok:

[MACH082]

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting :ok:

[ejectx3]

Some comedy has emerged from today....

From "plane talking"

"“Alan Joyce has conceded that there is nothing currently in the Qantas Sale Act preventing him from replacing Australian Qantas operations with Asian subsidiaries.

“However, he has asked Australians to ‘trust him’ that such an option is not on the cards.”

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I thought he did OK. He had a bit of a laugh here and there and left when he said because he had "other engagements". Nothing will come of this unless QF wants it.

SN

[ejectx3]

Just laughing at the "trust me" line

[teresa green]

Cookie7 I don't even want to think about it. Did the AIPA get a say today, so busy trying to find out what channel/station it was all on, plus pick up grandkids, I might have missed it. If so what was said or asked? Thanks guys. Ken Borough, seriously mate, the bloke is a Australian, a proud Australian, I would rather listen to him anyday, then your mate.

[Jetro6UL]

After watching the inquiry, considering how AJ kept saying it was his sole decision to shutdown QF. The pitiful lies & overall piss poor leadership. I`m wondering if he is happy to cop the criticism etc, get the boot back to Ireland, BUT the Board lives on?????? I`m sure a couple more zeros will be added to his bank account.

Yeah, seems clear he's put his hand up to be the patsy and take the bullet for the board.

I once had a lot of time and respect for Peter Cosgrove.....no longer.

[clotted]

seriously mate, the bloke is a Australian, a proud Australian, I would rather listen to him anyday, then your mate.
Teresa, Joyce is an Australian; he's as Australian as Senator Cameron or even Julia. Yes they were all born somewhere else other than Oz but all 3 are Australians.
So attack him for his decisions if you will, but not for your prejudices.
I suspect you carry too many wounds from 1989 experience. It would appear that you pulled on the wrong rope then and its likely that the same ill judgement used then is showing through now. Reality and emotion are not the same thing you know.

[Cookie7]

teresa green
My post was actually a tongue-in-cheek reply to bankrunner but half that members post was removed by a mod due to it being a personal attack.

TG - in answer to your secondary, AIPA were present and spoken for, I'm sure you know which 3 reps spoke today (otherwise PM me).
I'm also sure one of the usual members will post a tube video of that portion of the afternoon.

I must say, the absolute disgrace of the day was AJ not clearing his calendar and availing himself completely. Regardless of whether or not a person summonsed to the Senate Enquiry is given a timeframe, they should always make the full day available. As has been seen on various replays of news items this evening, AJ asking to meet his flight and Senator Cameron suggesting otherwise!

And a side note to another member of Pprune (and you know who you are), you did say if ANYONE showed contempt you would release items to relevant personnel, now I hope you do so! :)

[POT100]

I thought SP did pretty well today.Composed,articulate and didn't get too angry..Jackson and co also came across pretty proffessional.Shame that TS just sounded too angry again..I think the TWU needs a tv friendly face too put their points across.
I reckon AJ made a co$k of himself..Surely his position cannot last!!..
And then, out of the software reprogramming dept - OW re-emerges..Unfortunately still garbled!!..I really do wish that these QF spokespeople do come to interviews fully armed with all the facts..

'Todays No.4 Engine failure due to an oil px problem was not related to previous A380 eng probs"..hmmm????? . Its a good job that some Senators weren't born yesterday..

[parabellum]

Cameron is a 99% union man and he will defend the union position 'till death whilst using every other possible option to suggest he is really interested in solving real problems.

Cameron, along with the rest of the TU movement, have been caught on the back foot by a boss who has pulled the rug from beneath their feet and shown them to be powerless when management put the big foot down.

I think it is a shame to see Cameron held up as some kind of hero, he is just another militant trade union Brother cunningly disguised as a Senator.

Trade unions and workplace associations definitely have a very necessary position but that isn't dictating how a company will run when they have no fiscal responsibility whatsoever.

[ejectx3]

....probably spot on, but it is nice to have some powerful figures on our side for a change.

[Management In Charge]

We the shareholder laud Alan for the splendid work and stellar performance he displayed in the Senate. Everyone was against him, it would seem that nobody likes a winner? It seems that because Alan is Irish the Senators and public want to cut him down? Tall poppy syndrome is obvious.

No matter how hard the Senators try, the public, the government and the unions - you will not remove Alan nor the board from their posts. Let's face it, a half billion dollar profit and you all think Alan is a bad CEO? How absurd.
Australia needs Qantas, for sure, but Qantas needs Alan.

Try as you may you won't roll Alan. We the shareholder are very pleased with out leader, and Qantas is to powerful to be undermined by a handful of union members. Any airline who can puppeteer the government, regulator, public, and media will reign triumphant. You must start to listen to the man, yes, when Alan talks you should listen. Trust is earned not bought, and Alan has truly earned your trust, he implied that himself. Give the man a chance, he has feelings you know, he is also human and has emotions, a life, a 'partner' so give the man a chance. Embrace the man and his ideologies, think outside the square, don't fight us join us. Life is too short to see management and unions squabble over payrises, work conditions, job security, folly such as that. Give the man a go, I implore you.

[Going Boeing]

Posted by a troll
Alan has truly earned your trust

It's hard to work out how you can say that when everything he says in public is a lie! :ugh:

[ejectx3]

That was comedy ..... Right?

[Utradar]

Nice one MIC! Good try!

At the AGM not one thing was said about his loyal passionate workforce. It was all about the technology, the shareholders and customers. Management priorities are wrong!

This is not BHP, Telstra, or Rio! This is a real airline with real planes that fly through the air with real engine failures and the potential of a real crash! Geez, they've come close to losing one with fatalities on a few occasions now! The old adage: If you think safety is expensive try having an accident. This is the big picture and wasn't stressed enough at the inquiry.

Why is it that there are so many latent failures? These all-to-common incidents are the evidence that management are not taking safety seriously enough and the result of cost-cutting. This is the primary reason I have no confidence in Q management. See how expensive saftey is when one goes in!

The ATSB said Q was lulled into a 'false sense of security' after QF1 at Bangkok in 2001.

When pig-headed management start looking beyond the 'bottom line' and start engaging with staff properly, they might actually turn Q around.

Just have a look at Lufthansa management change strategy. The key is that they engaged their staff. Look at the Virg/Branson philosophy. Staff-Customers-Shareholders in order of priority. Virgin group success speaks for itself.

http://teaching.fec.anu.edu.au/MGMT2035/change_airline.pdf

Anglo-American style of management is just not working here at Qantas. Union action is just history repeating itself by having militant, egotistical execs running the show.

\Leadership, culture and employee engagement: Do CEOs and executives actually get it? - Human Capital (http://www.hcamag.com/news/opinion/leadership-culture-and-employee-engagement-do-ceos-and-executives-actually-get-it/110737/)

Do you think Q is safe just because it's had no fatalities in the jet era. Think again. Management has a moral, legal and social responsibility to drive the safety culture and morale of staff is a big part of that.:=

[teresa green]

Clotted, whilst I did not exactly find 89 a barrel of laughs, it has little to do with how I perceive the present situation. Whilst our mob, certainly attained the same result as Joyce, and none of us feel good about it, there was a lesson there, that he choose to ignore. It happened once, and should have never happened again, but it did. This time world wide. A brain snap by someone who should and gets paid to know better. I cannot even imagine someone like Woodward, regardless of his drawl, ever making such a goose of himself. I dont give a ratz if Joyce is a Australian or from Swaziland, I still prefer to listen to Woodward, for no other reason than he makes more sense. I note with interest your age, that would put you as a F/O or young Skipper during 89, so did your ill judgement match mine, going OS for seven years, or did you stay home and help em out?

[Dixons Millions]

Great job today mate. You did us all proud. :ok:

[MR WOBBLES]

Thanks Steve we are in good hands

[max1]

I once had a lot of time and respect for Peter Cosgrove

Me too. I wonder what he does at Board meetings?

[ejectx3]

Drinks heavily to mask the guilt for selling his soul?

[Cactusjack]

Wonder what PC does at board meetings? Pisses himself laughing at how much he gets paid to do so little. Where is the loyalty to Australia now ?? Everything has it's price doesn't it.

[SimonBl]

Re:Peter Cosgrove - me too. I used to like him, based on his apparent cow-towing on the board, I don't like him any more.

[middleman]

Does anyone have links to video of Steve and also the Jetstar flight attendants from today ?

[QF94]

We the shareholder laud Alan for the splendid work and stellar performance he displayed in the Senate. Everyone was against him, it would seem that nobody likes a winner? It seems that because Alan is Irish the Senators and public want to cut him down? Tall poppy syndrome is obvious.

No matter how hard the Senators try, the public, the government and the unions - you will not remove Alan nor the board from their posts. Let's face it, a half billion dollar profit and you all think Alan is a bad CEO? How absurd.
Australia needs Qantas, for sure, but Qantas needs Alan.

Try as you may you won't roll Alan. We the shareholder are very pleased with out leader, and Qantas is to powerful to be undermined by a handful of union members. Any airline who can puppeteer the government, regulator, public, and media will reign triumphant. You must start to listen to the man, yes, when Alan talks you should listen. Trust is earned not bought, and Alan has truly earned your trust, he implied that himself. Give the man a chance, he has feelings you know, he is also human and has emotions, a life, a 'partner' so give the man a chance. Embrace the man and his ideologies, think outside the square, don't fight us join us. Life is too short to see management and unions squabble over payrises, work conditions, job security, folly such as that. Give the man a go, I implore you.

BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You very funny man!

[clotted]

I note with interest your age, that would put you as a F/O or young Skipper during 89, so did your ill judgement match mine, going OS for seven years, or did you stay home and help em out? Teresa, Old fella, you've pulled on the wrong rein again.
As I've stated before, I'm not a pilot and not airline, but a very interested observer.

[bingo doubt]

Oh did I laugh when spotter Ken was called out!

Probably the same guy who tells me at an airshow what my aircraft was doing 20 years ago. Thanks mate but I was in high school....

As someone who aspired to slide across into the Q a few years ago all I can say is that the slow demise has been disappointing to watch. Hopefully those with the right info and contacts can get sufficiently heard to bring about some meaningful results.

Good luck Qantas workers.

[ratpoison]

Thank you for the video's Breakfast.
How I enjoyed watching the scum getting red faced, flashing some shocking teeth and being completely humiliated has made the final closing of 2011 a ripper. :D

[Deaf]

a half billion dollar profit

General principle for investors:

Profit without dividend=dubious accounting

[Phalanger]

Capital expenditure is not deductible in the short term and as such a black hole for profits.

[dreamjob]

Anywhere we can see the latest videos?

[blow.n.gasket]

Well all this kerfluffle proves is that there is now a Joyce dumber than Barnaby!!:E

PS for $5million dollars I'd be looking at getting elocution lessons and paying a dentist to fix my Billy-Bob Hill-Billy teeth!:E

[breakfastburrito]

I don't have any material from the afternoon session. If anyone has a recording of the afternoon session, please keep it and PM me so we can get it posted up.

Still calling for video material via anonymous file sharing.

The transcripts will also be posted in time on the committee website.

[teresa green]

Clotted, oh your not a pilot, excellent.

[Fliegenmong]

Yeah, well I trust Joyce...............to lie again

Funny thing happened to me the other night, an old mate rang me up, has stuff all interest in aviation, and he began to quiz me over this whole sorry saga....

I was explaining to him years ago about...something...I forget precisely, it matters not, what stuck in my mind he pulled out the 'Glorified Bus Drivers' line

So I was somewhat intrigued when he called in the middle of dinner (I had to ring him back) and began asking about QF.

"Economic & industrial terrorism" was his phrase.....I found it was impossible to disagree.....

I was delighted that he had picked up on items such as how come it is illegal for unions to call snap work stoppages, even locally, whilst those that run the company can call (what amounts to the same) snap work stoppages globally, and blackmail the government.

He is in fact the same once very very Liberal supported who, after being shafted by Howards work choices has and will NEVER vote Liberal ever again.....Chalk another one up for Kattter :ok:

Anyway it was pleasing to see one so disinterested previously, take on an interest now, naturally I relayed to him, so that he could disperse to his friends and colleagues all manner of interesting items not widely or not reported at all in the main stream media.

He also had no idea of the chairmans lounge, he now understands who the members are :E

Righto! off to commit aviation on this lovely Saturday morning :ok:

[K9P]

Fliegenmong

I totally agree with your comments about The Liberals.
After hearing Senator Abetz's line of questioning and the contempt in his voice when questioning Steve Purvinas, I thought this shows the culture that is now endemic in The Liberal Party and I too will never vote again for this party.

[grip-pipe]

Well the good Senators have come and gone again posturing according to their political leanings and vanities, Alan headed home to keep doing what he is going to do to whatever it is the Qantas Group used to do, the cheap contractors bleated about how unfair it was that they were treated cheaply and the bureaucrats were predictably obfuscating.

Ah the Spirit of Australia - It's all bollocks.

Your going to get asianised whether you like it or not! In case you had not noticed we resemble any one of a number of South American states, a mine pit for foreigners, cheap wines and the usual predatory anglo-american investment plays. Meanwhile the real industries that made this country go down the gurglar and with them your future! Yep its all good.

[piston broke again]

The longer this whole shindig goes on, the more I'm leaning to towards its the fault of the board and they are the ones that should be held accountable for the downfalls over the last few years. Joyce is simply a puppet and now I think he's trying to jump on the grenade so the board can run away to their chairmans lounge and private golf clubs.

Don't get me wrong, Joyce is as incompetent as they come, but he's certainly taking the fall for the failings of the men and women behind closed doors.

[DJ737]

The first rule of government -

Never start an inquiry into anything unless you already know the answers.

[SimonBl]

Hmmmm, browsing the ABC Breaking News website just now and came across this story:

Jetstar staff forced to clean around dead body

Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:46pm AEDT | Updated Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:43pm AEDT
A Jetstar flight attendant has told a Senate inquiry that a crew member was ordered to clean around a dead body and managers have shown no concern over staff falling asleep on long-haul flights.

Aha, i thought, THIS is what PPPrNe mentioned yesterday about the FA's testimony, good, i finally get more info on it. But the link doesn't work any more. It leads to a dead page. WTF?

Edit: While that link was dead, this one works thanks to Google: Jetstar staff forced to clean around dead body - ABC Newcastle NSW - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-04/jetstar-staff-forced-to-clean-around-dead-body/3636328/?site=newcastle)

[RENURPP]

A Jetstar flight attendant has told a Senate inquiry that a crew member was ordered to clean around a dead body and managers have shown no concern over staff falling asleep on long-haul flights.
The grounding of the Qantas fleet dominated the day's evidence before the Senate, but a last-minute witness, Sydney-based Jetstar flight attendant Michael Kelly, took the hearing in a different direction.
Mr Kelly testified he and several of his colleagues had been falling asleep on 15-and-a-half-hour return trips between Sydney and Bali.
He highlighted the case of a woman who crashed her car on the way home from one such flight and later committed suicide.
"Because she stopped for coffee to stay awake she didn't receive any assistance from the company because she broke the journey from point A to point B," he said.
He said another colleague was forced to clean an aircraft while the body of a deceased passenger was still on board.
Mr Kelly said he would prefer to work for Virgin Australia because of poor working conditions within the Qantas group.
"A lot of Jetstar employees wish to work for the Virgin group because Sir Richard Branson and John Borghetti take great care of their crew," he said.
Mr Kelly also testified a colleague suffering glandular fever kept working after sending 13 unanswered emails to the company asking for time off.
Earlier, Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce argued his decision to ground Qantas's fleet was justified.
Meanwhile, Jetstar has taken three of its Airbus A320 aircraft out of service over safety concerns.
The budget airline owned by Qantas says it has detected a small amount of movement in the tracks of recently installed seats.
Jetstar says it has cancelled six flights as a precautionary measure.
Tags: air-transport, work, sydney-2000

Copied here so it doesn't disappear.

[ejectx3]

Couple of bottles of grange to the editor, story magically vanishes

[SimonBl]

Couple of bottles of grange to the editor, story magically vanishes
Much as i Like a good conspiracy theory, the link's now working. So, either someone at the ABC's a PPRuNe fan, or it was just a glitch in the matrix :8

No-one recorded the afternoon sessions yesterday??? Damn. Maybe ABC News 24 would oblige if asked?

[ohallen]

Can someone give a summary from yesterday of the female FA from Jetstar (who appeared at the last Senate hearings) please. I missed the session and was very worried about retribution from the company last time as she was very credible and a gutsy lady.

thanks

[rh200]

female FA from Jetstar (who appeared at the last Senate hearings) please. I missed the session and was very worried about retribution from the company last time as she was very credible and a gutsy lady.

If she hasn't already planned on leaving I would hazard a guess she will be fine for the forseable future. Any sort of dismissal after that will be seen as payback and the HR department wouldn't allow it. The exception is if they got her on something really bad and had a lot of evidence.

What I would say though is her employment prospects for other airlines will most likely be damaged, in that matter any other large company.

[MACH082]

I'd imagine her roster would be terrible too.

[unseen]

Profit without dividend = retained earnings

Used to buy things like aircraft when you don't want to use debt or equity financing.

[SimonBl]

What I would say though is her employment prospects for other airlines will most likely be damaged, in that matter any other large company.
Really? Not with any company I've worked for over the last 20 years. Passion says a lot, if that's what it was and why I want to see it.

[fdr]

I hope that the associated unions in this fight support the Flight Attendants when the Corporation acts as corporations do... they have shown strength of character and personal courage that evidently puts the QFA board to shame, as well as QF senior management that either believes the Joyce Future Fantasy, or knows that it is flawed, yet doesn't have the intestinal fortitude and sense of honor to notify the King that he is bare butted...

Theres a mirror out there for everyone, (some more cracked than others)

[Sarcs]

SimonBl if there isn't a copy of the afternoon's proceedings you can request what you need from: How do I request a copy of parliamentary proceedings? (http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/TUTORIAL/proceedings.htm)

You'll find they are very prompt in getting back to you. Other than that the Hansard should be out by the middle of next week! Here's the link:

Hansard Senate Committees (http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/committee_transcript.asp?MODE=YEAR&ID=187&YEAR=2011)

[SimonBl]

SimonBl if there isn't a copy of the afternoon's proceedings you can request what you need from: How do I request a copy of parliamentary proceedings?
Sarcs, any thanks. I'll do this and then put them online (if allowed). Hansard if I'm not mistaken, is the written transcripts which don't always tell the full story.

[ACT Crusader]

teresa green
My post was actually a tongue-in-cheek reply to bankrunner but half that members post was removed by a mod due to it being a personal attack.

TG - in answer to your secondary, AIPA were present and spoken for, I'm sure you know which 3 reps spoke today (otherwise PM me).
I'm also sure one of the usual members will post a tube video of that portion of the afternoon.

I must say, the absolute disgrace of the day was AJ not clearing his calendar and availing himself completely. Regardless of whether or not a person summonsed to the Senate Enquiry is given a timeframe, they should always make the full day available. As has been seen on various replays of news items this evening, AJ asking to meet his flight and Senator Cameron suggesting otherwise!

And a side note to another member of Pprune (and you know who you are), you did say if ANYONE showed contempt you would release items to relevant personnel, now I hope you do so! :)

For real cookie? QF weren't the only organization there to provide statements and answer questions. There was a schedule and as a result of the continued questioning to QF, Virgin, CASA, DEEWR, DIT didn't even get a look in as scheduled. If all the committee wanted to do was grill QF they should have made that known.

[rh200]

Really? Not with any company I've worked for over the last 20 years

As a rule big companys don't like to hire people who may be percieved as trouble makers. If for example she was forced to testify etc, then that is different.

If it was a personal choice thing then it depends apon perceptions of what she said. If it comes across as corporate bashing then they won't touch her with a 10 foot barge pole. In the end it will come down to the HR departments perception of what she did.

[ohallen]

Is anyone really suggesting AJ and his minders could not have predicted they were up for it big time? If not, they were the only ones in the room.

The only reason he had a plane to catch was so that he could get out of that room and hope they didn't call him back. Thankfully the senators were well onto him and indicated that they would extend a further invitation for another day.

I also don't believe that any of the other scheduled witnesses would have minded a bit being delayed or being called back, as they observed the rightful grilling that the Rat was getting and may it last a little while longer yet.

I would even think that some of his managers would cover for him at work when required so they didn't have to explain their own actions on many fronts.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey readers,

Just for your info I would not pin any hopes on the current changes being discussed in the senate passing on the house floor. The discussions however will flush out a few facts that have previously been hidden. Assessments will be made beyond that and I then fully expect the real amendments to the Sale Act coming out.

cheers
Steve

[QF94]

Hey readers,

Just for your info I would not pin any hopes on the current changes being discussed in the senate passing on the house floor. The discussions however will flush out a few facts that have previously been hidden. Assessments will be made beyond that and I then fully expect the real amendments to the Sale Act coming out.

cheers
Steve

Let's hope that someone in the senate has enough brains and clout to get this done. The Sales Act should, as far as can be seen and reasonably expected include possible future changes the company may have in mind.

All the best for negotiations today with QANTAS. Don't let them rattle you. You have a lot more support than is being made out in the tabloids and TV.

[ejectx3]

What is the schedule for further appearances from Alan (he's our mate now remember), at the senate hearing?

[K9P]

Yes Allan after his "Spoilt Child" fit has, in an act of contrition, given away free tickets at even more cost to QANTAS

[ohallen]

Unlike many other previous QF complete screw ups, one effect of AJ's evidence to the senate is that he and he alone will wear the responsibility for these acts.

There is a chance some Board members may be dragged into it, but don't hold your breathe on that one.

There is no ability to hide in a foreign jurisdiction, there is no junior manager who could cop it or even go to prison, there is no underling who acted without authority etc etc (and we have heard them all from this lot over the last ten years).

The key is to now make sure no one forgets that.

[Sarcs]

Here's last Friday's (4-11-2011) Hansard for the Qantas Sale Act inquiry:

http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/s428.pdf

SimonBl, the hosties are on from pg 62 onwards.

cheers

[bugsquash1]

Loved the line "That is not our intention" in relation to possible Jetstar on Frankfurt route and the reply "that's not what it reads here"

Qantas used that line to the Eastern pilots on an EBA clause regarding weekends off and got the "Not our intention letter" where they could have changed the clause to the original agreed clause.

They voted it down! Which cost the pilots 10's of thousands of dollars each in back pay.

Industrial thuggery by the curry clown.

Every time its sounds suspicious with Qantas, it is. They use that line way too much, it must be in Qantas management 101 hand book :=

[Mstr Caution]

Alan Joyce page 12 of the Senate Transcript:

If you look at airlines around the world, Qantas has actually outperformed them. Qantas is the only airline in the world with an investment-grade credit rating. Qantas is the only airline in the world that actually had profits during the global financial crisis.

Perhaps Alan should get to know his competitors!

Emirates Reports US$225m Profit despite Global Challenges | Scoop News (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1111/S00139/emirates-reports-us225m-profit-despite-global-challenges.htm)
4th Nov 2011 Emirates remains on its strong growth trajectory which over the past seven years has seen the airline grow from a fleet of 60 aircraft in 2004 to its current 161 wide-bodied aircraft including, the largest fleet of A380s with 17, and the largest fleet of Boeing 777s, with 93. In addition, the company's revenue has increased steadily by 20 per cent per annum over the same period, resulting in a record 23 years of profitability, unmatched by any other airline.

Alan - Qantas the ONLY airline in the world that actually had profits during the GFC, you are full of Sh#t.

MC

[SimonBl]

Sarcs,

SimonBl, the hosties are on from pg 62 onwards.

Wow. Gutsy indeed. I don't think I need to see the video. Thanks for the link Sarcs, I will read more later tonight.

[ohallen]

These FA's deserve credit for their efforts this time and at the previous Senate Committee hearings. There is little doubt that some of the Committee are well aware of the personal risks they face and I particularly liked Senators Cameron's barely concealed threat to BB and his company.

Jetstar will tough it out for the moment, but eventually the pressure to conform to appropriate standards of behaviour when dealing with their corporate antics will result in change.

[FYSTI]

Would any retribution against witnesses not constitute contempt of the Senate?
Jetstar would be wanting to treat them with kid gloves.

[The Kelpie]

Senator XENOPHON: Could I ask you to provide, without breaching any confidentiality, the roster for your overseas based crew for flights in and out of Australia for October and this month?
Mr Buchanan: I can give you all the average stats. For instance, I look at the average hours of each roster and the average hours at each base. The average hours range between 27 and 30 total hours per week, and for flying hours it is around 20 hours. It is very similar across each of the bases. The average duty length for someone in Bangkok or Melbourne—or any of our other bases when they are flying internationally—is almost identical. They all come in at about 10.5 hours.
Senator XENOPHON: Does average hours include time people have off work? Does that figure include flight attendants who are office based and who do not fly?
Mr Buchanan: No, I am just talking about the active average duty time for people flying, and the base times are almost identical.
Senator XENOPHON: I would be grateful if you could provide that roster.

Sprung!!!

Senator X is now tuning in to the BB spin frequency!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie


Ps make sure senator X gets an un-doctored version !! Consider this a bit of friendly advice!!

[Sarcs]

Wow. Gutsy indeed. I don't think I need to see the video. Thanks for the link Sarcs, I will read more later tonight.

SimonBl, I think you'll find the Hansard people are very good and will not miss anything!

Reading it word for word has a lot more impact than you would think, sometimes taking out the emotions etc of the narrator helps to cut to their message.

I believe the narrative from those two hosties was particularly damning of the work practises at Jetstar! I'd be surprised if their story isn't in the process of being snapped up by 60 minutes or 4 corners right now!

Job well done those two!

[SimonBl]

Sarcs:

SimonBl, I think you'll find the Hansard people are very good and will not miss anything!
I'm familiar with Hansard and have the utmost faith in the accuracy of the record.

FYSTI:

Would any retribution against witnesses not constitute contempt of the Senate?
The Chair and one or two of the Senators made it perfectly clear:

Senator CAMERON: It gets murky and murkier, I must say. Thank you very much. I have got to say that you are very courageous.

Mr Kelly: Thank you.

Senator CAMERON: We will certainly be watching very closely in relation to any action that may be taken against you. I indicate publicly that I am sure every Senator here—most of the senators here—

Senator XENOPHON: I think every senator.

Senator CAMERON: Every Senator? Is that the case? I hear some senators say they like AWAs.

Senator XENOPHON: No, no, but the disadvantage issue is a separate issue.

Senator CAMERON: The disadvantage issue is separate, okay.

CHAIR: Our standing orders of the Senate make it very, very clear: if you need our assistance you will contact us, but I know damn well you won't.

Senator EGGLESTON: This is a very serious matter that we have heard evidence about. I wonder what the role of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority is—the overarching authority for aviation—in terms of the terms and conditions under which crew work? Perhaps that is something the committee should seek some advice about.

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: We would also like to know the answer on that—myself, Michael and all our fellow colleagues out there.

Senator EGGLESTON: I am sure you would.

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: Most definitely. And we welcome it.

Senator EGGLESTON: And if we get advice, we will pass it on to you.

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Eggleston. I just want to clarify. When I said, 'I know damn you won't.' I mean you damn well won't need to, because Mr Buchanan is a very responsible employer and I am sure he would love to hear if there is any breakdown in his occupational health and safety systems and to address them.

Mr Kelly: Thank you.

Senator XENOPHON: Just a couple of things to follow up. Ms Neeteson-Lemkes, you told me before in your evidence that you were provided with emails from a number of flight attendants about their complaints. As I understand it, you have permission to provide that to the committee but not necessarily disclosing their names for public consumption. I do not know whether we need to discuss that with the secretary.

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: Cabin crew have asked me to ask the Senate to consider these emails without publishing their names or making their identities public at any stage.

CHAIR: We can take them in camera.

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: Okay, thank you.

Senator XENOPHON: There is one final issue, if I may.

CHAIR: Yes, you may.

Senator XENOPHON: Ms Neeteson-Lemkes, you gave evidence—when was it?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: 31 March.

Senator XENOPHON: Yes, it is a long time ago. Can you say whether the allocated work you have had has been about the same? You are not suggesting there has been any prejudice against you since that time?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: There have been some questionable moments and times since my last appearance. It is sad that you cannot pinpoint a single person, but the behaviour one would deem quite odd—and I deem it quite odd myself.

Senator XENOPHON: There is an avenue you may want to take up with the committee if you consider you have been prejudiced.

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes: Correct.

This is what I found in Standing Orders, couldn't find any details (after a quick look) of any penalties, though:

Molestation of witnesses

(11) A person shall not inflict any penalty or injury upon, or deprive of any benefit, another person on account of any evidence given or to be given before the Senate or a committee.

[gobbledock]

I agree with the general sentiment here that the cabin crew who are prepared to bravely expose the disgraceful work conditions placed upon them are absolute champions, a huge congratulations is in order.
A congratulations is also in order for a number of the Senators, again particularly Senator Xenophon who seems to have been born with a sense of fairness, honesty and morality, unlike the majority of other politicians born part human/part pig as their noses are continuously planted in either a trough somewhere or in corporate Australia's asses.

The Australian aviation industry, including CASA require an enema, and Senator Xenophon is the best person to assist in the process of flushing out all the ****e.

Interesting point, Senator Xenophon and Ms Neeteson-Lemkes agreed with this fact - where is CASA in all of this? If these facts are true, why hasn't CASA taken action? Doesn't the safety management system contain the requirement for an operator (airline) to promote a just culture when it comes to safety matters, including reporting? Doesn't the safety management system include 'human factors', of which fatigue, rostering and management actions are all meant to contribute towards an employees well being and safety? Doesn't the statements that Ms Neeteson-Lemkes has raised indicate that rostering in itself is a 'hazard' not being risk assessed or mitigated, and again, hazard identification and risk management is part of the safety managent system which IS a regulatory requirement? So this indeed poses a legitimate and safety concerning question - What is and has CASA been doing? Why are these issues, and most have links to one form of regulation or another, not being oversighted adequately by CASA?

The continual raising of unsafe practices in forums other than CASA's own is proving to be a huge concern, is it not? Why is the regulator continually being indicted for not having a grip on the industry, not knowing about these problems, not addressing these issues, not acting predictively but rather acting reactively time an time again? Surely there is more than enough evidence being produced to paint a picture of an absolutely inadequately run safety authority?

In line with the direction this hearing has taken, the massive amount of evidence being produced, the damning record of safety decline within the overall Australian aviation industry it is time for a royal commission to be launched? Call up the regulator and it's senior management past and present, call up the airline executive management, the safety managers, the Minister, line them up one after the other to explain there way out of these issues. If anybody can give the Australian traveling public and the tens of thousands o aviation workers the answers they deserve it is Senator Xenophon, whom I now officially label 'the peoples champion'.

[Mstr Caution]

I thought it was QF group policy that no crewmember shall operate when fatigue levels have influenced safety levels.

Seeing as safety is a number one priority, why hasn't a risk assessment been completed on JQ's cabin crew rostering practices & associated fatigue levels?

Oh, that's right. They were too busy doing the risk assessment on distraction levels of pilots wearing red ties & grounding another airline.

MC.

[Kharon]

I think, the FA 's will probably prove to be the most destructive force of all that day; you feel as if you can believe every thing (give or take a bit) they did not say. It was truly remarkable to watch; the Senators make no bones about it. Clearly, they were sick to the ribs (Abetz excluded) of the rhetoric, spin and slanted arguments, which a careful man, although angry, could not with safety attack.

But gee whiz, they got behind the FA 's. Lay down mi sere– no question.

Perhaps it's simply that there are “no complex issues” at stake. Possibly because they could relate to it. Democracy at it's best, Australian style. Underdog First.

The TWU were very good, Fed Sec ALEA not too shabby at all, the AIPA worth very much more than a cursory reading; but, for mine, the one that did the damage; was easily defended and that the Senators could actually do something about were the FA 's.

If we manage to keep an OZ airline – betcha the manning and fatigue levels are changed - at the express direction of the Senate.
Anyway – well done all, well done indeed. :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Sunfish]

There will be no inquiry until not One, but at least Two and probably Three fatal accidents occur. The First one will be "laughed off" as bad luck or pilot error.

[73to91]

I'd be surprised if their story isn't in the process of being snapped up by 60 minutes
well that's not going to happen whilst the Nine provides the onboard news etc.

If they did, they'd get Karl :ugh: to do the story and we know who's side he'd take.

Laim Bartlett though, he'd be good as he has previously given it to QF in his homw town paper.

[Lookleft]

I don't think the F/As will be racing off to the media as then they would open themselves to punitive action from the airline. The reason they went to the Senate was because they would be protected under parliamentary privilege. Still very courageous to speak out and not go in-camera but they knew they had a safety net and Jetstar knows it too.

[simsalabim]

I will guarantee that no main stream media such as 60 minutes will touch this story from the angle of "poor hard done by flight attendants" ........ "mean bad employer" The corporate world which owns the media is part of the problem not the solution. The cabal of present media moguls have two out of three ownership of newspaper, television and radio stations.They love and support big business because they are big business.Their role is to make big $$$$$, put in and support the governments they want . They do not run exposes of labour practises that those at the top of the corporate world support and endorse.Put another way .......they don't rat on their corporate mates.

[ohallen]

You seem to forget the ABC who have a long tradition of tackling the bigger issues via Four Corners and other shows. They are also not afraid to embarrass the govt of the day when necessary.

If ever there was show that needed Chris Masters it is this story that is unfolding.

Agree the FA's were important but also dont forget the gap between the intention of the legislators for the QSA and the Executives. This could come back and bite the company yet.

[Firecat]

The onus is on the employee to recognize and report fatigue.
This means that if the employee recognizes fatigue either in themselves or another employee it must be reported.Failure to do so means that the employee is culpable in the event of a safety related incident.
The reporting of fatigue is to be treated "with compassion and confidentiality".
Report fatigue too often and it will be indicated to you,that in the interests of your well being perhaps you should seek alternative employ.So rather than accept fault with company rostering the blame will apportioned to the employee.
Hence the "toughen up princess" proclamation from above

[TIMA9X]

Received this chain email asking me to pass it on,
Subject: Why QANTAS is being trashed - Senator Xenophon’s Speech


Please don't believe all of what is currently being portrayed in the media. The media is being manipulated to achieve their ultimate goal.



Someone is going to make a fortune out of this at the expense of our Aussie icon. The Senator says it all.


Basically, they are driving the share price down by not paying a dividend and antagonising its workforce. The current board & CEO still represent the same interests that were around at the last takeover attempt.


Why drive it down? To finish off what they started 5 years ago. Takeover, then split and sell-off the seperate divisions.


It is very sad and the Australian public need to know the truth about what the current management are up to.


____________________________________________________________ __________


Subject: Senator Xenophon’s Speech in Parliament - Hansard 23Aug11


Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37):

I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world's oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn't feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, 'Qantas never crashed'? While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege? Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $251Ž2 million a year.

Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar's bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar's costs magically become Qantas's costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas's legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management's word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

Here is how it works. You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act. Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money. You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year (2010), QF032 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380-800 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

A lot of claims have been made about the financial state of Qantas international but given the information I have presented tonight, which has come from within the Qantas Group, I believe these claims by management are crying out for further serious forensic investigation. Qantas should not be allowed to face death by a thousand cuts—job cuts, route cuts, quality cuts, engineering cuts, wage cuts. None of this is acceptable and it must all be resisted for the sake of the pilots, the crews, the passengers and ultimately the future of our national carrier.



Please forward this onto all Australians & all your contacts. As I will not & won't let this happen as a current PROUD staff member of Qantas Airways Ltd... So bring it on Alan Joyce & all other management involved..




I believe this inquiry will gain a lot interest from the general public unlike the last one.... I note the media trolls working overtime in the press this week, an indication that the Q PR machine are a little concerned.

example http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/will-you-accept-qantass-apology- (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/will-you-accept-qantass-apology-20111107-1n2ta.html?posted=successful#makeComment)

Just read the comments section,



(http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/will-you-accept-qantass-apology-20111107-1n2ta.html?posted=successful#makeComment)

[ohallen]

Following the other thread on the exodus of QF pilots it occurs to me there may be another matter that may interest the Senators.

Is this yet another unplanned or planned consequence of this management team that failed to disclose the possible effect of their strategy on the Brand and its operations?

The PIA with the pilots was very much tokenism, but it seems this is the final group that the Rat is indirectly declaring war on by disengaging them.

The senators should be concerned that this executive is dismantling by stealth a technical group of excellence that has served the public and the nation well and all to save a few dollars per passenger.

I can hear the words now affordable safety and all for the sake of bonuses for a few.

Where was this disclosed at the AGM or in any strategy disclosure to shareholders.

If the favoured few institutionalised shareholders were not nervous before, they should be now.

This is surely one for Senator Xenaphon??

[peuce]

From Clive Dorman in the SMH:

There are 22 million different opinions about the national carrier and many of them miss the point: Qantas’s costs are too high, especially on long-haul international routes, and must be reduced if it is to survive.

Obviously Mr Dorman believes that "many miss the point" ... because they don't agree with his point.

He is entitled to his point, and it may very well have worth ... however, there are many others that make the point that Qantas doesn't HAVE to reduce its costs to survive.

Mr Dorman tends to forget that ... to survive ... you need to either have costs less than income ... OR income greater than costs.

To date, Qantas has only been harping on about the need to take the easy, short term option.
Perhaps, if they got some of their MBAs (or Mr Maths) working on a strategy to increase income, they may be more successful in moving towards a more sustainable long term future.

[MACH082]

I would say that the initial plan is to lower the cost base, get rid of the dead wood (according to the little man) etc etc.

Once this is complete, increase the revenue.

Great in theory, but the grand Asian plan is flawed.

Bring your staff with you, they will agree to cut costs, sell them the dream and then grow and increase revenue.

Not hard!

[V-Jet]

.82
It is hard if you cannot admit you are wrong and you are incompetent.

I have run some complex small businesses. I used to think these management guys knew way more than me, but they don't. My business management skills came from the school of hard knocks. I am here to tell anyone (including them) they are simply way out of their depth.

When I buy companies I look for the guy who has lost weight, running around like a headless chook, blaming staff, the ATO etc etc. If the place is close to succeeding and can deal with a leader like that then I'm away and am pretty sure I can make the place work. I then make an offer and usually you can see the stress leave them as you finish the sentence.

That guy is AJ and the board.

I would happily buy an airline from them. They show ALL the hallmarks of being out of their depth. The symptoms are the same, be it cafe's, hairdressers or even a childs paper run.

I would never buy an airline from Borghetti. He reeks confidence and 'can-do' attitude. He is relaxed, in charge and has a plan. Additionally, he is a competitor I would be deeply nervous of.

Like a feral farm cat backed against a wall, AJ is panicky, he is unpredictable and therefore dangerous. As he sees it he is fighting the entire company, the board (at least anxious he has to perform to their expectations) the government and probably drinking too much and arguing about who leaves the top of the toothpaste off with his boyfriend.

The Senate would have rattled him. A lot. he breezed through stage one by focussing on minutiae on subjects he was comfortable with. There are numerous sleepers in there lying dormant that he will be nervous as hell about. I am utterly convinced the 'delightful' Ms Wirth has come up with a number of Qf's recent PR 'wins'. If you understand the subject, they are like the ALP running a federal govt on their ability to get a headline the next day, like batts, school halls, solar etc etc. If you don't, he came out a champion.

No one knows what FWA will come up with. It may be toothless, pander to the vote getter of fixing F/A's schedules and leave it at that, but it may not.

The chess board is out, there are a few more moves on it, but win lose or draw I congratulate ALL the unions involved.

I spent an entire day reading through the Senate hearing. It is in the hands of the government (desperate to be seen to have a win at something) what they do with the information in there. There are some absolute clangers in there that even a money no object legal team would find daunting.

The opposition is rattled, they are not strong in their game. To anyone with an understanding of business they are on shaky ground and desperate for wins.

I do have hope that Qantas may yet survive.

[Mstr Caution]

The Senate would have rattled him.

And it was evident for all staff & passengers to see (getting off his flight) at Sydney domestic on friday.

[QF94]

V-Jet

I do have hope that Qantas may yet survive.

QANTAS will survive. With or without AJ and the board. Preferably the latter.

If you were to go by earlier news reports, AJ came out smelling like roses after the "inappropriate" grilling by Doug Cameron and Bob Brown, neither of which I am a fan of, but they asked questions that AJ didn't like and made comments AJ didn't like. Boohoo to him.

There is a growing resentment amongst the "peasants" out there that something smells badly inside the board of QANTAS. Hopefully, this hearing can be upgraded to an enquiry, but I doubt that will happen.

Enough pressure has to be put on AJ and the board to step aside. AJ alone won't cut it. You still have Clifford and Strong in there, who are no doubtedly pulling the strings on AJ and will do so to the next person. If you're removing cancer, remove the lot.

[Worrals in the wilds]

It's also a very unusual government at the moment with an extremely tenuous claim to the title. They're one defection, heart attack or retirement away from a by election and a possible/probable (depending on the seat) change of government. The country is not exactly pro government at the moment, but nor is it pro the opposition; the mood is basically 'you all suck' and largely has been in both state and federal politics for the last decade or so. The federal government's recent debacles must surely be eating away at what little confidence they had to start with.

The current fashion for anti corporate protests is undeniably wanky, but I believe they do illustrate the current public sentiment against companies who claim they're too poor to give cost-of-living pay rises or employ Australians rather than Thai serfs, but still seem to find the coin for 5 million dollar executive salaries (at Australian rather than Thai levels of exec renumeration) and 500 million dollar profits. When it becomes apparent that all those companies seem to be run by the same twenty people (with a million dollar kicker per company:hmm:), it all looks a bit suss, even to middle of the road obsevers who thought Joh had the right idea about student protests.

Any person or board who runs a transport company and would cheerfully inconvenience that number of customers when they had other means is a cad. That's my non academic, non executive, non renumerated with 5 million dollars opinion. Innocent people who have no horse in the Qantas vs Workers race missed funerals, weddings, business meetings, international connections and countless other important commitments because of the Qantas Board's action. That's what they think of their customers, that's what they think of the transport service they provide. So the TWU used to do it? Sure they did, and that's why a lot of people still hate them. It's really hard for Qantas to claim the moral high ground when they pulled the biggest ever snap strike without a hint of notice. Clifford wants to bag out the alleged Union Heavies? He's now shown himself to be just as much of a wildcat. In this dispute, the ALAEA and TWU gave ample notice of their intended actions, so the customers were aware and didn't find out the hard way on Fookbook mid Saturday afternoon. Spirit Of Australia my arse. They should be made to paint it out like Golden Circle had to hastily remove 'Australian Grown' from their trucks with black spray paint. :yuk:

Ironically enough, Corrigan's airline is now looking like the reliable way to fly. Strange times indeed!

[bandit2]

Interesting clip regarding JAL, leading by example. Hope the link works http://video.l3.fbcdn.net/cfs-l3-snc4/78742/20/178522358835092_50382.mp4?oh=609564831618d189c645d27712cc886 b&oe=4EBB7800&l3s=20111107225640&l3e=20111109230640&lh=029cd65f7ee14ca7d6c66

[Yamma]

Interesting to sit back and watch the question time in the senate hearing. I think AJ answers the questions well, but the senators on the other hand seem to get so wound up and end up making some very poor "personal" remarks in response. I would be very surprised if it is a negative outcome for the Qantas management, and the poor sportsmanship from the senators will only help AJ's team.:O

[ejectx3]

When is aj back on before the senate?

[hotnhigh]

I've said it once before. Qantas via Joyce and Clifford have offered the gillard government a life line. Through their actions of attempting to trash fair work and unions, they have opened up the whole ir issue which is not what Abbott and Abetz wanted.
Abbott and Abetz have been evasive when trying to outline what their alternative ir platform is. Work Choices mark 2 doesn't sound good nor does it wash with many.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

One thing that you guys might find surprising is this. Ian Oldmeadow was working on Federal Election day last year. Handing out how to vote cards for the Labor party. I know it seems strange but is very true.

[fl610]

My old mate Ian, a beacon of integrity! :yuk:

[gobbledock]

One thing that you guys might find surprising is this. Ian Oldmeadow was working on Federal Election day last year. Handing out how to vote cards for the Labor party. I know it seems strange but is very true.
Steve, I find nothing surprising anymore. For instance who would have thought Australia would have an atheist, orange haired Welsh woman with a Hairdresser partner who promotes 'mens sheds' as Prime Minster???

As for the never-ending bizzare theatrics of QF Management and Labor's mish mash/love hate/mates rates relationship, that also 'takes the cake'.
As Doc Holliday once said 'my hyprocrisy has no bounds'.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

One thing that you guys might find surprising is this. Ian Oldmeadow was working on Federal Election day last year. Handing out how to vote cards for the Labor party. I know it seems strange but is very true. Of course he would be! A pro-worker party keeps anti-union people in business. He has a livelyhood to protect!

[denabol]

Here's today's example of Qantas failing to have the right strategy.

Qantas the big loser as China Southern comes to Perth | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/09/china-makes-its-move-on-the-golden-west-unopposed/)

The SMH stories by Paul Sheehan and Clive Dorman were pathetic. And the Australian is so dull I couldn't read it to the end.

From Plane Talking.

Here we have China Southern wasting its time and money flying to somewhere in Australia without making them transfer between the international sides and domestic sides of Sydney Airport, and in their own quaint colors, while Qantas puts all its eggs into hip brands like Jetstar and Red Q, which sound like a video game and a dating agency in Asia, thus cunningly avoiding addressing the leisure and business markets of China with anything that actually uses the word ‘Australia’ or the image of something as universally recogniseable as Australian as a kangaroo.
The genius of the Joyce plan for Qantas continues to set my hair on fire. Hey, were going to get rich by not being Australian. Freeking brilliant. Can’t wait for the imminent announcement of the location of Red Q, the A320 airline with sleeper seats bigger than those on an A380 that is going to rip up those old fogy national carriers like Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific and indeed, struggling poor old China Southern (third largest airline in the world by head count) as their customers rush to book Fair Q or whatever it is called, and wherever it is based, and with whomever is supposedly going to bankroll the 51% stake that will ensure that it can be legitimately called a Singaporean or Malaysian flag carrier.
The institutional investors in Qantas are officially superbly entranced by the brilliance of the Joyce strategy, which will see them without dividends for how many more years, with a shrunken international Qantas brand that will diminish the attractiveness of its loyalty program and the synergies with the domestic full service brand which is under siege by that other bunch of losers at Virgin Australia.

[flyingfox]

denabol You don't say who you are quoting from Plane Talking. Is this from a contributor to the blogg? It certainly doesn't use journalistic terms and language.

[denabol]

Flying Fox. Just a cut from a sarcastic post by Ben. I should have pasted it in full. Meant to mention too there is a curious mix of stories on Business Spectator today as well including one that argues that the problems are almost entirely management failures.

[TIMA9X]

Now that a few days have passed it occurred to me watching the complete hearing is a nightmare, So I decided to break it up and add some relevant background to the many issued discussed. Over the next few days, when I get the time, I will do some more. Trust these videos will help the cause, and I hope people with a legal mind on here can see something that may be of importance.

Jetstar Crewing issue MK2

obmyzF6EvmA

Accounting at Q

zZKYARHGbhg

support clips

CbqgrLtKRj8

RP6TMxgcepI


.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Thank you for all the footage you put up. I'm sure it takes a lot of time.
TIMA9X: PPRuNe DG&P IFE Director :ok:.

[TIMA9X]

Worrals, thanks for the kind words, it's a pleasure. I do it because I believe in the cause, and because I fear if Mr Clifford and his mouthpiece AJ get away with it, we will see a whole raft of Australian corporates following suit with off-shoring jobs.

I lived in the UK for ten years, they did the same thing, now look at the mess they are in..... they sold the farm for a service industry economy, it failed. Australia runs about ten years behind the cycle... just like lemmings we are doing it, in the name of short term gain.... other words, filling the back wallets of a few executives without a care in the world about the peoples lives they destroy along the way.

Sadly, we have a talentless weak Government and Opposition who are so fused together with similar policies, companies like Qantas are allowed to walk all over them. The FWA act has been trashed before our eyes and Gillard knows it...... Abbott's lot privatised our airports who have no competition, each state apart from QLD have one international gateway..... sad.. and the mainstream media just roll along with the stupidity of it all...

[Handbrake]

Thanks from me too TIMA9X. I genuinly hang out for your next post and hope that you've managed to post all the stuff I've missed- and you always come up with the goods.
Go people power.

[MACH082]

There is already talk of a lockout of the striking nurses :ugh:

[bankrunner]

Yep, and it's described as a "Qantas-style lockout" of nurses by some publications.

Didn't take the union busters in other industries long to follow the Leprechaun's example

[UPPERLOBE]

Well, hasn't the "doing a Qantas" just become the generic qualifier.

Did something just blow up in the face of narcissism?

[clotted]

Never forget they are Julia's IR rules. She re-wrote Howard's rules.
You reap what you sow!

[UPPERLOBE]

clotted... phhhhhtttt.

Nice try, but the history is there, GD & LC were the prime architects of work choices, rusted on people such as yourself now need to keep very quiet lest you be seen to be doing a Qantas...

[Cactusjack]

Speaking of 'doing a Qantas', i'm heading off to the toilet just now!

[clotted]

GD & LC were the prime architects of work choices

Sober up. They may be guilty of many things but to say they dictated to government is ludicrous.
Instead of letting your bias and emotion dictate your thoughts, why don't you have a little read of FWA and how it was designed and then reach a conclusion.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Never forget they are Julia's IR rules. She re-wrote Howard's rules.

Clotted, IMHO, that would have to be one of the most ignorant statements I've seen on pprune.

Were you around during Work Choices ?, did you work under an AWA Mk1 ?.

Let me tell you first hand, the present system is not without some short comings, which will evolve in time, but Work Choices was plain evil.

There is always need to be balance between the left and the right, Julia/Kevin07 are pretty close to balanced.

Little Johnny / Abbott, are not anywhere near balanced, its in their DNA ( plus any guy that would wear budgie smugglers anywhere other than a gay bar is not real smart in my eyes ).

[ejectx3]

.....not that theres anything wrong with that

[rh200]

plus any guy that would wear budgie smugglers anywhere other than a gay bar is not real smart in my eyes Lets hope you don't get into any trouble at the beach and need any of those "not very smart" people to save your life then.

[rh200]

did you work under an AWA Mk1I did, great thing, though most of us over here have never needed some union hack to stand up for us anyway. I remember when the Pilbara was controlled by the unions, what cluster F#$$. Yes a small minority at a few big mines had it sweat, but if it was still up to them the industry would be half the size.

Best thing we ever did was give them the boot, conditions have improved 10 fold, and that was before the boom, now they are sky rocketing. The old them versus us attitude is a thing of the past, the likes of Sheldon loves it, gives them purpose.

The only real sad bit I see in this is the Pilots and their union, I thought they showed great initative in the way they went about things.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

but to say they dictated to government is ludicrous

what, as opposed to the first weekend in November?

[fatmike]

the present system is not without some short comings, which will evolve in time, but Work Choices was ........

There is always need to be balance between the left and the right,

I don't disagree with this and I didn't say that I was a supporter of Work Choices, BUT I think it is unreasonable to be critical of an employer who plays by Julia's rules if it has a contrary outcome to an individual's desired outcome.

[fatmike]

what, as opposed to the first weekend in November?If you mean Qantas provoked the government to invoke a provision of FWA to bring a dispute to a head, I think he has admitted publicly he did that and that was what he intended.

[UPPERLOBE]

clotted, I'll be gentle with you because you are obviously emerging from the stupor of being a rusted on Liberal.

From a 2008 study.

http://epubs.scu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1120&context=jesp&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct% 3Dj%26q%3Dgeoff%2520dixon%2520workchoices%2520%26source%3Dwe b%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CB4QFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fepub s.scu.edu.au%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D112 0%2526context%253Djesp%26ei%3DIw27TpvWH4rUrQfW86THBg%26usg%3 DAFQjCNGqN0fmWm_KSHgSCaQ2q1MkwjjLVw%26sig2%3Dpf-Jv3BdUbmCKQ4rhX6Tkg#search=%22geoff%20dixon%20workchoices%22

"Geoff Dixon, another BCA board member, has been the CEO of QANTAS Airways Limited since 2001. Dixon’s career includes various positions within Qantas such as Executive Director, Deputy Chief Executive Communications, Group Executive General Manager of Communications and Executive General Manager of Marketing and Corporate Affairs. Outside the former state owned company, Dixon has worked for Air Pacific, Ansett and Leighton Holdings. Like his fellow board members in the Business Council, Dixon saw corporate goals clearly. In an address to the QANTAS General Meeting in October, 2005, Dixon endorsed the proposed IR reforms which would enter Parliament in November, stating: They will give established successful companies like Qantas greater flexibility to adapt to changing market conditions...Because if they do not, or if we do not, be sure that others will come in and use green fields costs or foreign structural advantages to devastating effect.54

It would have been utterly surprising if Dixon had not supported the reforms, considering the BCA had proposed them before the government. Dixon is an example of an ex-public sector manager who has benefited from the privatisation of QANTAS."

clotted, read that last paragraph again, and then read the next one about LC.

An ironic Qantas victory: Kohler (http://www.smartcompany.com.au/industrial-relations/20111031-an-ironic-qantas-victory-kohler.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+smartcompanyallcontent+%28smartcompanya llcontent%29)

Obviously you've been out of the country for the last 10 years, all of what I said is on the public record, next time do some research before you accuse people of being drunk.

[breakfastburrito]

Correct me if I am wrong, IIRC Geoff Dixon was on John Howard's advisory board to oversee the design & writing of the workchoices legislation?

[ACT Crusader]

Little Johnny / Abbott, are not anywhere near balanced, its in their DNA ( plus any guy that would wear budgie smugglers anywhere other than a gay bar is not real smart in my eyes ).

Who've got the rhetoric down pat, Shed Dog

[teresa green]

As a bloke who is completely and utterly straight, I still prefer Abbott in his smugglers (surfclub gear) than Gillard in a set anyday.

[Capt Claret]

G'day Teresa,

Silvio didn't agree with you. Did you see him leering at young Julia (at the G20 mtgs) on the news last night?

[rh200]

I still prefer Abbott in his smugglers (surfclub gear) than Gillard in a set anyday.

I could do to see Julia in a set, just to be sure I wouldn't. Some guys might have a thing for ol red head:E.

[Wally Mk2]

'TG' sheez yr a worry mate. Abbott's ears alone would turn anyone off!:E
As for Julia?..........oh plz but she is good for one thing, think of her when the lights are out & I last for ages!:E:E:E

God this QF crap is a mess! Having to fight the Govt the very people whom we voted in (not me !!!) to run our country.Sometimes I am not proud to be an Aussie especially now that QF no longer has a God like status amongst the gen Public:sad:



Wmk2

[peuce]

As I see it Wayne Swan is completely out of order here, what no right to challenge?

Here, here! :ok:

He's the Treasurer, so go balance some books Wayne.

Every Australian, at least the last time I looked, has the right to appeal a decision he/she/they believe is unlawful.

The Courts will decide the veracity of the claim ... not the Politicians. :*

[Handbrake]

Do your homework before placing all your eggs in the Tony Abbot basket.

To start with Abbot and Hockey have been EMPHATIC in supporting the QF move to off-shore -despite job losses, loss of once No. 1 Airline, loss of national flag carrier, loss of skilled pilots/engineers impacting on future training (Virgin is still small fry), the list goes on- all for assest stripping and risky Asia plans.

If you do your research you will note that the most actively involved MP's advocating for QF management to open the books and stop playing funny games, are either from the Greens (whole party but esp, Adam Bandt IR), Labour (i.e. Glen Sterle) or Sen Xenophon (Senate Inquiry:Safety and training & the current SI: QSA).

Believe me I've spoken to most of them, and the Liberal's are all singing from the same nasty prayerbook. In other words, you can take your jobs and get stuffed 'cause we support a tarted up version of Work Choices.

Now before jumping on PP and typing about how much you like looking at Tony Abbot in budgie smugglers, do some research then get back to me.

[clotted]

Is any creedence given to the fact that chairman Sterle and member Gallacher received free accommodation from the TWU and didn't declare a possible bias to the inquiry in that they "owed" the TWU something for such favours? Maybe this is why they appeared so hostile.
If they had declared their patronage at the outset, this suggestion would not have been possible.

[ejectx3]

Does anyone know when Joyce fronts senate for follow up questions?

[airtags]

Upper house only has a couple of days left for the year

[TIMA9X]

Yep, and it's described as a "Qantas-style lockout" of nurses by some publications.

Didn't take the union busters in other industries long to follow the Leprechaun's example If you mean Qantas provoked the government to invoke a provision of FWA to bring a dispute to a head, I think he has admitted publicly he did that and that was what he intended. sEF4dTnnBCU

Now some time has passed, it is interesting to view this video although not directly about Qantas the comments are very interesting. Makes me wonder if Freehills are also advising the Victorian Government. :rolleyes:

[What The]

Old article but maybe they hung on to the gig.....

Thousands paid for union row consultantsBy Paul Heinrichs, Kirsty Simpson
March 7, 2004

http://www.theage.com.au/images/icon_print.gif Print this article (http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2004/03/06/1078464697197.html) http://www.theage.com.au/images/icon_email.gif Email to a friend (http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupEmailArticle.pl?path=/articles/2004/03/06/1078464697197.html)

The Bracks Government is paying thousands of dollars a day for consultants to co-ordinate its tough campaign against public sector union pay claims.

Unions believe their addition has helped create "a wall" that has stymied negotiations at the Government's predetermined limit of 2.25 per cent, plus another 0.75 per cent for productivity.

The impasse led directly to the statewide strike on Wednesday of most state school teachers and a large proportion of the Catholic system's teachers.

However, the Community and Public Sector Union - one of three public sector unions in negotiation for a new wages agreement - is expected to agree to a 13.5 per cent wage increase over 43-44 months.

The CPSU advised its members yesterday to hold off on scheduled industrial action by its workers in the juvenile justice area, with negotiations believed to have progressed ahead of a Tuesday meeting at the Industrial Relations Commission.


But the two remaining industrial disputes, with nurses and teachers, still appear to be far from over. The level of pay rises, teachers' working conditions, nurse-patient ratios and low pay rates in comparison with their interstate colleagues remain key sticking points.

To help advise the Government on the deals, a husband and wife team from Sydney, Ian and Justine Oldmeadow, of Oldmeadow Consulting, are getting a reputed $2800 a day to oversee the Government's position.
Their appointment has been confirmed by a spokeswoman for the Premier, Mr Bracks, although not the pay rate.

"It's not unusual for the Government to want the best strategic advice at times like these," she said.

Mr Oldmeadow is a former ACTU industrial officer, working on aviation issues, who became an Ansett executive in the late 1980s and then a Qantas industrial relations manager until 1997. His role is to provide strategic advice, which he has been doing at least since November.

Justine Oldmeadow, a former industrial relations commissioner, has also sat in on all negotiating sessions between the Government and the Australian Education Union going back to July last year. Ms Oldmeadow received a payout of about $185,000 in 1997 as one of the members of the IRC who was made redundant by the Howard Government to allow for a restructure that cleared the way for its own appointments.

Another consultant, David Gunzburg, was appointed by the Department of Human Services five months ago on a rate of $1500 a day. His role was to liaise between the department and hospitals about the progress of wage negotiations with the state's nurses, which are stalled over Government demands to overhaul the nurse-patient ratio and by the pay rise ceiling of 2.25 per cent.

A week ago, the Victorian Hospital Industry Association took over responsibility for paying Mr Gunzburg, who is a former BHP and Eastern Health network executive.


Thousands paid for union row consultants - National - www.theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/06/1078464697197.html?from=storyrhs)

[TIMA9X]

For those who missed it..

pdZWAdZ5ORQ


At the end of this segment BB goes for the "going broke thing" to back up AJ who appeared uncomfortable answering Bob Browns questions.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2011/11/Travolta_QF_Pan-Am_jet.jpg


Bill Shorten "live" on the night of the FWA decision after the grounding.

iqeyuVoGN_0

[Sarcs]

Whose shout for the popcorn!:ok: Next hearing on Thursday apparently:
Parliament of Australia:Senate:Committees:Upcoming Public Hearings (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/hearings/index.htm)

[Sarcs]

Got the schedule for Thursday:

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Inquiry into Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011: Public hearings and t (http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rat_ctte/aircraft_crew_2011/hearings/241111.htm)

Funny thing is there is no mention of the leprechaun showing up, unless he is going in camera earlier?

[The lens]

AJ's appearing early Feb., 2012 when the Committee reconvenes. Confirmed with Committee Sec. this arvo.

[buttmonkey1]

"I thought Mr Joyce made a clear commitment to the senate to make an appearance, and [his actions] seem to be inconsistent with that," Senator Cameron said.
"This is an issue of significant public concern, which goes to very core of the national interest and I'm sure nothing he's doing at the moment could be more important than explaining why he acted in a rogue capacity to close down Qantas and damage the Australian economy."

probably way too busy with his cockhead plan for qantas

He wants to slash 1000 jobs from the mainland, and venture into two new projects, one a low-cost offshoot based in Japan and another ''premium service'' based in south-east Asia.

[breakfastburrito]

For the record
Fly by: Joyce misses second inquiry grilling
Kelly Burke
November 23, 2011 - 2:27PM

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce ... supplied written answers to questions.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has declined the invitation to face a further grilling at tomorrow's senate inquiry, despite earlier assurances under oath that he was "happy to defend [the decision to ground the airline] and talk about it in any forum, anywhere, because it was the right call".

It is understood Mr Joyce has informed the inquiry into the Qantas Sale Act that he will not be available for further questioning now until at least February next year.

A Qantas spokesman said Mr Joyce was overseas on business but was working with the committee on dates which he could re-appear.


"Mr Joyce appeared before the Senate committee to give evidence about proposed amendments to legislation three weeks ago. He answered Senators' questions for three hours – double the time he was originally scheduled to appear," the spokesman said.

At Mr Joyce's previous appearance at the inquiry on November 4, he was subject to intense and occasionally aggressive questioning from the left-wing Labor senator Doug Cameron.

Senator Cameron said today he was extremely disappointed Mr Joyce would not be attending.

"I thought Mr Joyce made a clear commitment to the senate to make an appearance, and [his actions] seem to be inconsistent with that," Senator Cameron said.

"This is an issue of significant public concern, which goes to very core of the national interest and I'm sure nothing he's doing at the moment could be more important than explaining why he acted in a rogue capacity to close down Qantas and damage the Australian economy."

Mr Joyce had been given until midnight last night to respond to a number of questions he took on notice at the November 4 hearing.

Made public today, Mr Joyce's responses included the revelation that as many as 66 flight crews learned of the grounding mid-air, possibly after tuning into news on ABC Radio Australia.

When pilots contacted the company from their cockpits to find out what was going on, they were read out a prepared statement and told to proceed to their destination "where everything would be explained".

Mr Joyce said as many as 629 flights had been cancelled prior to the grounding, as a result of the unions' "slow bake" action over a period of months, and a further 387 flights had been delayed.

A nationwide poll of more than 1000 respondents, commissioned by the Australian and International Pilots Association and set to be released tomorrow, has found that an overwhelming majority want the federal government to move to strengthen the Qantas Sale Act.

More than two-thirds of respondents said wanted legislation to ensure that Qantas management does not act against the national interest.

The association's president, Barry Jackson said the polling numbers prove that strengthening the Qantas Sale Act was an issue Australians feel strongly about.

"In recent years, however, the public has watched successive CEOs take advantage of loopholes in the Act to outsource and offshore the operations of a proud Australian icon," Captain Jackson said.

"What this new polling demonstrates clearly is that the vast majority of Australians understand the special role Qantas has to play. They do not want rogue management teams to retain the right to treat the airline like a personal plaything."

The senate inquiry into amending the Qantas Sale Act is due to sit again tomorrow morning.
WA Today (http://www.watoday.com.au/business/fly-by-joyce--misses-second-inquiry-grilling-20111123-1numa.html)

[ohallen]

Reported previously he is to appear in February so that is a matter for the Senators to show whether it is acceptable or not.

Seems there may be a game of bluff going on, so lets see who gives ground first.

The real issue is that if February is real, then it delays the outcome whatever that may be.

One could be cynical that the Rat is not too keen to pander to this lot especially given the treatment he got last time.

However, whether it is acceptable for a CEO to put parliament down his list of priorities is another issue and I would suggest is a brave call except if the Chairmans Lounge is working.

Time will tell I guess.

[Cargo744]

Senator Camoron is a two bit Union hack. A scottish hack appealing to a useless welsh boss about Australia. If you want to whinge about something look at your political masters. Inept, useless and completely incompetent is only just the beginning. :=:=

[bandit2]

Cargo744,
You do work 7 days a week.

[Howard Hughes]

Just read this story on SMH.com.au. Reading between the lines, I reckon Joyce won't be around to face the enquiry come February. Once FWA hands down their arbitration decision, he would have done his job and be looking for the golden parachute!

That's my tip anyway!;)

[MACH082]

That's exactly spot on HH.

The little man has been hired as a change manager. He is not there to make friends. He is there to do what was set in motion by Dixon. He is there to play hardball and see how far they can push.

Once it's done he'll be ran out of Sydney and the new face of Qantas will be there to rebuild the fragmented relationship with staff.

Behind the whole affair is Clifford, the puppeteer pulling the strings.

I bet they have not factored in a nurse style strike though. Fark FWA, fark the lot of them. It's time to take the power back.

[Cargo744]

Bandit,

Prune is not work. I work a proper job. Try it... it's actually good fun.

[bandit2]

I was wondering all along! AJ did openly say the shutdown was 'his' decision. Is AJ the patsy? Rumour has it that if the EBA's aren't settled by Feb he doesn't get the extra couple of million bonus.
AJ gets the full blame for everything, Clifford & the Board live on. Does Clifford step up???? What's needed is a complete cleanout of the Board & Chairman. The lockout has Clifford's fingerprints all over it. Given his history in the mines etc.
AJ during his actions on Sat the 29th Oct said his PR team had to fly from Mel to Syd on Virgin. Then during his next sentence he said the Chairman had to drive from Syd to Mel. AJ is just the spindoctor!
Come Feb, everyone would have forgotten about the shutdown etc by then. Sounds like they're playing everyone.

[V-Jet]

Fascinating. Not surprising, but fascinating.

Treating the Govt of the day with contempt is not something he would have taken lightly. I read the hansard deeply and as I said previously there were some clangers in there. He had nothing to lose by saying 'no' - but it strengthens (albeit lightly) the 'workers' case.

As a pilot I can only really speak from my POV. What Irish 1/3 did to FWA by dumping a pilot award in an unschooled persons lap is about to be made fully apparent to some poor schmuck.

What will have been painted out as a simple FWA arbitration ruling is going to place the ruler in the international spotlight.

I doubt they will have any concept of what is their future for the next maybe 12+ months until they start 'arbitrating'.

Any decision they make is going to take them into fatigue risk management legislation in an instant. And they will have the international aeroSPACE community breathing down their necks. Everyone from NASA down.

I doubt the company will 'lose' per se, but gee it will be fascinating to watch. The complexity is nothing short of breathtaking....

And all the while, Virgin made the press today for making a profit!! JB, you are such a loser Qantas does not even think about you anymore - if you are quick, you may just be able to get a foot in the door to buy a few 'long haul' 320's before those genii at Qantas get them all:)

[Keg]

And if AJ has any half beat PR stunt scheduled to get his mug back in a positive light- or even an interview for a puff piece of journalism about him- between now and February then the Senators are going to be all over him like a rash. Too busy to front the Senate and answer questions about the Act which governs the manner in which Qantas business is conducted in Australia but not too busy to do x, y, z. Another PR stuff up in the making?

[Short_Circuit]

It's back on 16:30 Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/annualview.aspx?eventtype=HoRMain&eventdate=24/11/2011)

[breakfastburrito]

S_C, the link that works for me is here (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/eventdetails.aspx?eventid=2244664)

[Kharon]

My new hero – Ms. Linda White. :D :D

Single handed she has just done more to destroy the evil empire than all the posturing, rhetoric and oft time dribble than the all rest combined.

Calm, cool, informed and authoritative and infinitley believable.

Kudos ASU. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Hire this wizard boys and girls.

[another superlame]

Howard Hughes, I think you are right on the money with your statement.
The board has given him a large pay rise to break the unions, and while not completely broken I believe he has succeeded where Dixon has failed.
At the end of the day neither QF or the unions will be able to claim total success but in the words or Sen. Bob Brown he had a big stick behind his back that he didn't show to anyone, until it was too late.

When all is said and done the board will cut him free as he will have become a "liability", but the huge severance he will be given will cushion his fall.

One more thing, if I hear AJ say we had to this so that "going forward"......
that small phrase gets on my goat every time I hear him say it.