Has your UK CAA I/R lapsed by more than 7/6/3 years?

[PeeProone]

Mine has, which was not a problem as I have continuously maintained my Instrument Rating on an ICAO HK ATPL for the last 10 years.

That was until April 2011 when the CAA suddenly and without warning decided that ICAO I/R's didn't count anymore and that I would be required to re-sit the theoretical examinations in order to revalidate my UK I/R.

I am in the early stages of taking the CAA to task on this through the BALPA lawyers, I know that I'm not the only one affected by this sudden policy change and both myself and BALPA would like to know how many others are out there.

Please PM me or post if you are affected by this, want to share information or if by some miracle you have managed to make any progress on this issue with the lunatics at the CAA.

Cheers

[kotakota]

I think most of us have been aware for quite a while not to allow 5 years to pass without a UK LPC ( I/R -whatever ) , how come this is such news to you ? I do sympathise by the way , I think its all a by-product of the many cowboys out there with false docs.

[EYZ]

I've been out of the UK 8 years and didn't know about this. I'm not sure most of us are doing a UK check every 5 years either.

[springbok449]

I don't think it's as well known as you make out, few people I have mentioned it to had no idea. I only found out by pure chance...
Neither the CAA or BALPA for those who still subscribe have made it clear to the expats who hold a current UK license, which considering how much you pay to keep your license valid and up to date is disgraceful.
Good luck with your case, I am sure that they are many in the same boat.
Bokkie

[kotakota]

By chance I was in Belgrano last week for another issue , and not sure the rather gorgeous popsie who dealt with my query was state-of-the-art when it came to regs , had to go off and bring back the 'bible' to make her point even though I thought there was more than one way to skin a cat with regard to the wording .
I think they all believe that we spend our spare time ( if we have any ) keeping up to date with their endless amendments.

[Desert Driver]

This is a change, the rules were as long as you operate on an ICAO license then all privileges of the UK license are honored and the first time you renew the UK one everything is reinstated. I know a one off approval was issued to some TREs to conduct UK tests but that has stopped because the CAA said that it was nor necessary. Now there are no current/approved CAA TREs in EK.
The only way to renew is to go to the UK and Find a Sim. and a CAA TRE oh and about £1500.

[PeeProone]

For those who are in this position but are unfamiliar with the history, the requirement to re-sit the previously passed theoretical exams if your IR has lapsed by more than 7 years has existed for at least the last 10 years.

LASORS the UK CAA publication detailing licencing requirements has stated in successive updated versions during this time that if you hold an IR on another ICAO licence it fulfills the criteria of having an IR inside 7 years thereby eliminating the requirement *to re-sit the theoretical examinations.

In April 2011 LASORS 2010 was published and without prior warning the CAA removed this condition effectively rendering many license holders unqualified overnight.

There is no other outside legislation driving this decision, JAR-FCL has not changed since 2005, EASA does not come into force until April 2012 at the earliest, this is purely an arbitrary UK CAA action.

Other JAA member states such as France and Germany accept IR's from ICAO licences so the CAA cannot claim to be merely falling into line with other countries.

Aside from the fact that as a responsible regulator the CAA are obliged to give people advance warning of major policy changes such as this, sitting theoretical examinations for a 2nd time serves no practical purpose and offends common sense.

Discrimination also becomes a factor because the CAA cannot point to any differences in standards that would legitimize their sudden refusal to grant an IR without sitting exams having continuously maintained an IR on another ICAO licence.

Neither can they reconcile the contradiction that I'm qualified to fly a HK registered aircraft in UK airspace but not a UK registered aircraft. Remember I'm objecting to re-sitting theoretical exams that had questionable vocational value as a student, not carrying out a CAA IR and skills test.

Having failed to appeal to the CAA's better *judgement I am now pursuing this matter through legal avenues.

[SANDBLASTER]

I was on the phone to them yesterday as my licence expired last month. I put the A330 on my UK/JAA licence a few years ago whilst at EK. They advised I could renew my licence on the back of a 330 PPC conducted in EK within the last 5 years.

As I now fly the 380, I also asked if that could be put on licence. The answer was yes as long as I had 500 hours P1 time on type.

[ruserious]

interesting SB, I am in much the same position as you, so would be interested to see how you get on

[kotakota]

Sandblaster , I think you might find that you have always been able to put a current type overseas on yr UK Licence , as long as it is within 5 years etc , it will also be the old Part 2 type rating , and , of course , you cannot exercise the privileges of , say , an A380 TR in UK until you have had an LPC conducted by a UK TRE - not much changed really.
Still worth doing a UK LPC every 5 years anyway , £1500 well spent I say.

[White Knight]

Well; I'm buggered.... Nine and a half years since my last LPC/OPC and ten years since my UK medical:{ Guess I'm stuck in the 'pit:E:E

No way I'm doing those theory exams again at Belgrano - biggest waste of time and money in my career!!!!!!

[woofer]

No way I'm doing those theory exams

Amen to that. Worst days of my life. I really have no idea what is wrong with the CAA.

I guess it has all to do with EASA coming into effect next year

[Fart Master]

Christ, just read LASORS 2010 and it looks like we're screwed..........not happy.

SANDBLASTER, are you implying that if you have done an EK PPC/IR test within the last 5 years i.e. since 2006 then the UK CAA will allow you to do a UK PPC/IR test with a UK examiner without having to do the ground exams?

[Mister Geezer]

I guess it has all to do with EASA coming into effect next year.

One would hope that EASA makes licensing policy easier. One change that I do approve of is EASA licenses will have lifetime validity. Thereby doing away with with the CAA cash cow procedure of having to renew your licence every 5 years. :D

[SANDBLASTER]

My last 330 PPC was 18 months ago conducted by an EK TRE. I paid to get the 330 put on part 1 of my UK/JAA licence in April 06.My licence ran out in September. When I was on the phone to the Belgrano, they pulled up my records on their computer and indicated it was no problem to renew my licence using my 330 rating.

When enquiring about the 380 rating the inference was that I only needed 500 hours P1 time to include it. I'm not sure that's entirely correct and think I would need a UK TRE to conduct a skills test on the 380 as I did for the 330. That could prove to be more of a challenge!!

As things stand I will go to LGW in the next couple of months and try and renew with the 330 rating.

Will report back!

[ruserious]

Ta much, my UK ATPL expired about 3 months ago, it had the 330 on it from the 1179 I did here in the EK sim. Like you I have been on the 380 for a couple of years, so would be nice to get it renewed with the 330 and eventually the 380

[Fart Master]

A couple of Q's;

Does anyone have a copy of LASORS 2008?

Sandblaster; while the CAA says that you can put the A330 on Part 1 of your UK licence, did that include an IR as well, or is it just the type itself that you've put onto it?

[break dancer]

Hey all,

UK licence lapsed about 2 years ago, and finally got around to doing something about it a year later, so it had expired for a year.

Was told I needed a current type on licence to renew, difficult as in Dubai for quite a while, but able to put B777 on UK/JAA licence with 500 hrs P1 (log book verified by EK), and a LPC with a JAA licenced TRE. There is one at EK, although not UK licenced, which didn't matter. The other proviso was a current Class 1 medical. If that had expired for more than 5 years, an initial was needed back in Gatwick.

That was it, pay the licence fee, and a brand new JAA licence delivered to DXB about a month later.

Good luck co-ordinating sim time and TRE, we just booked it on our own - about USD500 per hour each at EK.

[Straight & Level]

There are 2 requirements to renew a UK licence:

1)Current medical
2)Current type OR class. (Type: B777/A340 etc OR Class: Single Engine Piston Land)

I went back to Blighty, did a couple of hours in a puddle jumper, followed by a skills test, and Roberts your Fathers Brother, a shiny new JAR licence.

Bit nervous about the UK IR being lapsed for over 7 years though. :uhoh:

[deserthawk9]

Point of this thread is that if your UK licence (JAA or UK) has expired by MORE THAN 7 YEARS you now have to resit the IR theory exam to renew it.
Those of you that have renewed before the seven year point could perhaps refrain from telling us how easy it was to renew before reaching the magic seven year point!
How long before we have to resit plotting, air law or perf A?
This is a ridiculous ruling and the thin end of an enormous wedge.
It needs to be removed at the earliest opportunity.
Citizens of some other nations need only to be able to spell B777 or B747 to have it included on their licence (EG South Africa).
Why on earth should pilots flying full time for ICAO operators, many operating to JAA rules even if not JAA members, have this crazy rule applied.
Can we please avoid self congratulatory thread creep and concentrate on the problem here?
It would seem that after 40 years of continuous aviation, including 6 monthly renewals to international standards, my UK licence is quietly going up in smoke!
WTF is going on?
Good luck to anyone who is working towards a review of this ruling.

[Fart Master]

Guys, I think we're mixing 2 different topics here.

The thread was started WRT an IR renewal, NOT your licence renewal.

As discussed, all you need to have a valid licence is a medical and any aircraft type rating on it, but what the thread starter is talking about is your IR. You can have a current licence without an IR rating.

Again, does anyone have a copy of LASORS 2008, because as Peeproone said, if the UK CAA arbitrarily removed the ICAO rule then I think there is a case to be had.

[Mister Geezer]

The UK CAA will stop issuing JAR-FCL and start issuing EASA Part-FCL licences from 1st July 2012.

The new EASA licence will be valid for life, so worth the effort to get it.

The UK national licence will eventually become obsolete for public transport aircraft from spring 2014.

[Babbalito]

Guys

This ruling also concerns anyone who thinks their civvie IR is being maintained by holding an unrestricted green instrument rating. Beyond 7 years, it is not. Less than 7 years, you're OK. Does anyone understand the logic of the rule change? How does one lodge a complaint or appeal against the CAA?

[kotakota]

Spring 2014 ? Excellent , I will be 65 in March of that year !!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

As I understand........LOL...the IK regs, unless there is a A380 on the UK register, you can not add the type to your UK Licence.

The logic being: with no airframe on the register there is no need for pilots to be approved to operate non existant airframe....

glf

[Fart Master]

Any update on any correspondance with the UK CAA...?

Surely someone must have a copy of LASORS 2008 filed away in their computer somewhere?

Is there a possibility that the new EASA regulations will do away with the UK CAA's ruling?

[88inches]

I have just been burned by this "7 year " rule. Having just completed a JAR LPC renewal to convert my UK national ATPL to a UK JAR ATPL following lengthy conversations with CAA regarding the renewal requirements I was stunned when the gentleman at the 'same day' service desk at Gatwick refused my application.
What really peeves me is that with all the discussion regarding the date of my last LPC which was more than 5 years ago on my UK licence and having been reassured (by CAA) that the same type rating on my ICAO licence expired less than 5 years meant that I just needed to complete a JAR LPC renewal To renew/convert my licence - not once did the "helpful" CAA rep mention or suggest that the date of my last IR Renewal might be an issue.
I am now several thousand out of pocket with no licence to show for it.
I dont have a problem with rules but for god sake surely the CAA have some obligation to advise their licence holders of significant changes like this.
I checked again today on the CAA website and there is NO mention of this in the FAQ section of FCL Renewal, all it talks about is the 5 year rule for the type rating.
BTW I was advised by the "helpful" chap in Gatwick that I now need to resit 7 exams and carry out a IR flight test under CAA supervision to regain my ATPL.
The 7 year rule in question is described in LASORS section E Page 7.
There is no suggestion or reference to this rule in LASORS section F which deals with licence renewal.
Unbelievable......

[springbok449]

88,

I am sorry to hear your story, to be honest it's a disgrace, as you say when such a big change in licensing takes place the CAA should have an obligation to inform the license holders or in the very least offer some sort of grandfather rights.

You have have spent a lot of money both now and when you gained your license, in the process contributing to the salary of these incompetent civil servants, the least they could do is treat you like the professional that you are.

Imagine the guilds of Doctors or Dentists doing the same?

I wish you good luck.

[Fart Master]

PeeProone, sent you a PM with some info...

[fly744]

Dear 88in,
Sorry to hear about your bad "luck" with the CAA and thank you for sharing it with us! I think you save me and other people from "burning our money"...

Could you confirm once again that, the reason the CAA did not convert your UK national ATPL into JAR, because your last IR on it was expired by more than 7 years?

Now my question:
What about if a pilot flying the same a/c type (with that endorsed on the UK ATP) but with an ICAO licence? Or what about if the UK national ATP is valid but the IR has elapsed by more than 7 years- an LPC with a ukTRE would be sufficient?

Thanks to all you guys for your posts !

[frankie777]

Hi Guys. Myself and a number of my colleagues are directly affected by the 2010 change to Lasors. I renewed my UK ATPL to a JAA licence FCL ATPL in April 2009 on the back of a SEP Land Certificate of revalidation. I have been out of the UK working for EK on the B777 for approaching ten years. Like many people the various ratings on my JAA ATPL have expired by more then five years but I presumed that this would not be a problem as I could revalidate on my return to the UK, and I was able to renew my licence on a PA28 based on the SEP class.
At the time I renewed there was no mention of the fact that I should renew my IR or lose it after seven years. Now I read that in order to renew I will have to complete all the written exams again and take a flight test with a CAA examiner. This is ridiculous based on the fact that I and others currently fly four hundred people over the city of london in visibility sometimes down to 75 metres on a regular basis perefctly legally and in accordance with our ICAO valid licence.
The Training we recieve here is based on JAA and certainly meets the same standards or higher as if I was still based in the UK.
To put this in perspective. Can you imagine going abroad as a Surgeon and then returning to the UK to find that you had to take your medical exams again and return to being a House DR. This would be blown away by the Medical authority's let alone the unions.
I recently flew with a Dutch FO who stated that to put the 777 on his licence required him showing the Dutch authorities evidence of his last PPC and logbook hours and the rating was placed in his licence.
I personally believe the CAA is obligated to inform licence holders of significant changes to Licencing requirements which is why they are telling us all about the new EASA requirements coming in to effect in April. They did not do the same in this IR case.
I presume there must be many pilots in various company's around the globe affected by this decision. Maybe rejoining BALPA and taking action together is the way forward.
Any suggestions from those affected will be appreciated.

[40&80]

And if you had stayed in BALPA as an "Associate Member" for a reduced fee would you have been informed of these changes? I doubt it.
Is Balpa interested today in EK pilots...I doubt it except for your subscriptions.

This UK ATPL licence renewal issue affected me many years ago in Mrs Thatchers time...
After one visit to the Belgardo building which I felt reeked of civil service inefficiency and mentality I decided the British flying licence system was all a hopeless mess and not as Gulf Air preached... cost effective...this time for little me.
I forgot about my hard earned British ATPL as i thought it was going to become a money pit and a worry... I am not sorry I did.
It is not easy flying hard as an expat. and also trying to DIY your licence in a country like England...it costs you mega bucks and is frustratingly stressful.
Tell them to shove it.:ok::ok:

[captainsmiffy]

Frankie, I am interested in a collective action. The situation is simply ludicrous! Am rated 330/340 and 380 - but because my licence states P2 on it - can I transfer a rating to my UK licence? A resounding 'NO' so far from the CAA unless I can get a letter from the GCAA stating that we are trained to P1 standards (trained to a standard AT LEAST as good as the UK in EK). Have only just found out, too, that my IR will be under threat in 2 years because of this thread....!!!

The problem seems to stem from the fact that neither side attempts to understand what the other is saying and WE are caught out in the middle! The UK issues the same rating to LHS and RHS and the UAE issues a P2 to the RHS. I think that the CAA thinks P2 means that we are cruise pilots! The GCAA just seems to sit there and not attempt to understand the problem. Meanwhile there are F/Os flying the 330 for British Airlines who have done the same course as me and are doing the same job as me and in the same bit of airspace as me and yet they are rated by the CAA and I have to do groundschool etc etc. For heavens sake, I did the manufacturers course on the aeroplane - what more are they going to want added?!!!

Rant over but consider me 'in' on any action.

[frankie777]

Thanks 40/80 and Captain Smiffy for your respective replies. I agree that this situation is ludicrous. I intend to try and seek some common sense from the CAA but I am not hopeful. Isn't it funny that we are always being told to think outside the box in aviation and yet the regulator is clearly unable to do this. No one who is actually reading this particular thread is likely to be flying without a current instrument rating as a current professional pilot but most are operating under an ICAO system of licencing.
I plan to firstly visit the CAA in April and seek clarification. If I am only directed at Lasors I will write to someone higher up the food chain. The idea of a collective response from pilots in this position working for foreign companies is appealing but how do you establish who is affected and communicate. I will start by trying to find out who of the british pilots in EK is affected by this situation. I already know of at least five but their will be many more.
If anyone wishes to PM me with their details we can start collating a database of who is affected and whether anything can be done.
otherwise it is staying in the sandpit till retirement :ugh::ugh::ugh::{ or back to going through all those exams again.:confused::yuk: Surely it must be easier now we have internet and you can get practise questions!!!!!
Will update if I get any more info.

[airwaves747]

Hi Guys

I am in a similar situation to most of you with my IR in the UK being more than 7 years ago, this is the letter i received from the nice lady in the CAA :

Thank you for your e-mail received regarding the renewal of your licence

Requirements and documentation for renewal of your licence can be found in LASORS, which is a self-assessment guide to UK and JAR Flight Crew Requirements, under section G5. I have attached a link below for your reference.

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/lasors) - Please also refer to 'Amendments to LASORS 2010' within this link.

Once these requirements have been met the following documents are required upon application: -

* Application Form SRG1102
* A copy of your current JAR Class 1 Medical Certificate
* A copy of your certificate of test page confirming that a current type/class rating has been held in the last 5 years.
* Current fee of £136.00 on application form SRG1187

If your licence has expired, please ensure you complete section 4a 'Date of last Pilot-In-Command flight (under privileges of UK licence)'.

Please note if the Instrument Rating on your UK National or JAA Licence has expired by more than seven years, please also refer to section E1.5 regarding instrument rating renewal.

With regards to transferring your A330 from your Hong Kong licence I recommend you look at LASORS section F9.1. If your A330 is Co-Pilot or P2 please refer to LASORS F9.2:

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/lasors) - Please also refer to 'Amendments to LASORS 2010' within this link.

Once the above requirements have been met the following documents are required: -

* Application form SRG1119
* Current fee of £119.00 on application form SRG1187
* Original Logbook
* Original ICAO licence, or a copy certified by your Operating Company

EU European legislation (EASA) is due to come into force on the 8th April 2012 which is going to change the pilot licensing rules and will affect the privileges of many existing licence holders. The current UK Military Accreditation Scheme and ICAO ECAC licence conversions (LASORS G1.5 'Note 1' and 'Note 2') will cease on the 8th April 2012. Any UK Military or ICAO ECAC licence Conversion applications received after the 7th April 2012 will not be issued under the current arrangements.

All of the current information that we have is available on our website. Please refer to the link below:

EASA Updates and FAQ's - Licensing and Training Standards | EASA | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/eupilotlicensing)

To view sections of LASORS or other CAA documents from the web site you will need a copy of Acrobat Reader on your computer. Depending on the speed of your computer and Internet connection, it may take a short while to download a document before you are able to read it.

If you have any queries relating to this email, please do not hesitate to visit our web site at Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/pld) or alternatively contact our Licensing Team on 01293-573700.

Kind regards


Miss Natalie Goodman
Licensing Officer
Licensing & Training Standards
Civil Aviation Authority UK


i have joined BALPA and they have sent letters to the CAA regarding this matter, and have had the usual CAA response. Their legal department has been in touch with EASA on this matter as they feel the CAA is interpreting the rules most stringently than other states.

Its only 24 GBP to join BALP if you are outside the UK, maybe if we can get as many people as possible to join the action we can get something done about it.

I maybe won't use the licence again, but i spent enough getting it in the first place and it seems a shame to let it go because of this.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Excuse the butting in on the ME thread but I am a Brit working in SE Asia and am rapidly approaching both the 5 year I/R limit and the calendar expiry of my JAA ATPL. Question is, if I can renew my JAA ATPL for an EASA licence before the 5 year expiry on my I/R, do I still have to do an LPC in a JAA sim with JAA TRE or does the issue of an EASA licence remove this ridiculous requirement?

Good luck with the collective action.:ok:

[Fart Master]

I've actually spoken to a lawyer about this as I'm affected by the CAA stupidity. There is a precedent, the name of which I've forgotten, that referrs to 'high handed administrative changes'. Let's see..

I plan to take a class action to the CAA if they won't come up with a reasonable work around on this, based on the fact that there was no notification of this significant change. All I'm going to ask them is, subject to inspection of our ICAO licences/airline, to give all the affected pilots a period of amnesty in which to renew our IR's.

SBY for a heads up for a facebook group so we can collectively discuss this.

I will also be going to visit the morons in April to discuss this with them. I am trawling thru the ANO and JAR regs as we speak.

Airwaves, I might be wrong, but the IR renewal issue has nothing to do with the info the CAA gave you. All they are discussing is your ATPL issue, not your IR. They are 2 seperate issues. Except for the fact that you need an IR to have an ATPL??

FM.

[White Knight]

SBY for a heads up for a facebook group so we can collectively discuss this.


And for those of us not on Facebook????????

[Fart Master]

WK you got me there...possibly a Yahoo group then?

[fly744]

Good Job FM!

We all appreciate your good work and standing by ...:ok:

[145qrh]

Good job FM, I had a look at what is required if there is no joy with the CAA..


Sh!t, too much like hard work, and an IR flight test..all of which is a complete and utter waste of time, money and effort.

We all have an IR on our ICAO license, yet the CAA is treating us as if we haven't flown in those 7 years. A complete joke.

I thought , in a rather misguided way, that a move to JAA would stop these independant "interpretations"of the rules. I'm sure that none of the other JAA are using this rule in this way...

[frankie777]

For all those interested.
If you look in the Fragrant Harbour forum under Dan Winterland you will find an email address [email protected] where coordinated action gainst this ruling is proposed. He needs the to know whether your licence is current, if not when it expired, what licence you are operating under and which company. It was written in November last year but I suspect is still active.
Also I have just got a copy of the APRIL 2012 issue of PILOT magazine where there is a letter from the Chief Executive of the CAA on this very subject. He explains that there was an error in all issues of LASORS prior to 2010 when it was changed to the current policy. He is adamant that the policy will not be changed and appears to be in line with what EASA is proposing. My argument with that is that we have been told and warned about the EASA changes to licencing but never were about the IR.
I intend to write to this man and try to seek some sensible response to this issue based on common sense and the fact that we are all operating under an ICAO licence which is recognized by the CAA.
I have also rejoined BALPA as an associate member who I believe maybe attempting to bring this issue to a head with the CAA.
I am certain that if enough people get together we can fight this issue successfully and retain our UK IR's without having to go back to the level of a spotty youth commencing his first IR.

[Fart Master]

Frankie, good job, thanks for the info. Let us know what progress you make.

I will e-mail Dan and ask him what progress has been made. As I mentioned before I plan to correlate all pilots in the ME region who are affected by this stupidity and are willing to consider a class action. Alternatively if we can add our collective weight to the HK group then that may be the way...

Cheers,

FM.

[Luke SkyToddler]

No longer in the Gulf, but I'm affected by this nonsense, and would like to be part of any group that challenges them over it :ok:

[5 Greens]

Hi guys, i am too in the same boat.

Word of warning. After 8th April you will need a Current muti crew type on your UK state licence to get a current JAA licence, in order to get an EASA licence! That includes an I/R!
Prior to that date you Don't need a current muti crew type, an SEP rating will do it.
UK have delayed EASA licences by 6 months, but you need a JAA licence before then to get an EASA licence.

I now have a shinny new JAA licence without a current I/R!

There are NO more JAA exam sittings. After 8th of April you will be guinea pigs sitting EASA exams! Whats more you will have to present yourself to a TRTO organsation. Who will tell you what courses' exams to sit! More ways to rip you off.

[haughtney1]

Luke, my understanding is (assuming you hold a UK issued JAA ATPL like me) is you have 5 years to keep your medical current, and that if you can get a 320 LPC done somewhere in that timeframe you'll be sweet. This came after a visit to the Belgrano last week.

[Fart Master]

I think you're mixing keeping you licence valid vs keeping your IR valid....These are 2 seperate issues...you can have a valid licence without an IR. You can put any a/c you want on your licence regardless of the status of your IR, or even if you have an IR or not.

I wonder if and when we get things organised if it will be better to approach EASA rather than the morons at LGW?

The thread on Fragrant Harbour mentions that the 1.185 ruling has not been interpreted by the UK CAA as JAR intended. JAR-FCL intended that the 7 year rule apply to pilots who had not kept their rating/skills valid in any way. It was not intended to penalise pilots in the likes of EK, Cathay and SQ etc. who kept current.

More to follow...

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Just got my 777 done with the EK JAR rated examiner, got the 777 and 787 on my shiny new UK JAR licence which is nice. I JUST did it in time, I was lucky.

Hired 777 sim and $500/hr EK rate, then 750 euros(to the examiner) for the rating, plus usual rip-off fees to the UK CAA.

You have my sympathy if you are having the current struggle with the UK CAA. :mad::mad:

SyB :zzz:

[jcwk]

as someone who will be affected when my caa issued jaa licence expires
in 2013.
my thoughts are if the caa choose to adopt this draconian interpretation
unilaterally while other e.u. states are more sympathetic,then perhaps our answer is to change our state of licence. from brief research it seems this can be done by applying for transfer of med records and applying for reissue of ratings or more simply take a new initial med cert and apply for
ratings. i stand to be corrected.
perhaps belgrano's attitude might change when they see the free lunch
money going across the channel or the irish sea.

[Fart Master]

Having spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this situation I have come to the conclusion that the CAA has contradicted itself...

As has been posted JAR officials did not intend this rule to apply to pilots who kept their IR valid under another ICAO licence, i.e. most of us. They intended that the 7 year rule apply to pilots who had not kept current, in other words, needed retraining.

Now we come to the 'wonderful' UK CAA. I can only assume that the requirement to do all of the ground exams for an IR is to retrain and refresh a pilot who has not kept current, vis a vis it contradicts what they are demanding of 'current' pilots, e.g. EK, SQ etc. Therefore it would seem to back up the JAR version of how the rule was intended to be and not to play silly b*ggers with perfectly well qualified pilots.

Interestingly pilots who turn up at some other european JAR offices don't stricly have to keep to any validity rules as long as they can prove that they are current/have an ICAO licence and they get given a revalidated licence for their country when they need it etc...

Makes sense...???

[5 Greens]

Someone was asking about Lasors 2008. I have copies of Lasors 2006, 08 & 10. In Lasors 06 & 08. It clearly states, under Renewal of an IR (A).

Where IR privileges have been exercised in another category of aircraft i.e. UK/JAR IR(H) or under the privlileges of an ICAO licence (aeroplanes & helicopters) or under military IR qualification (fixed wing or rotary), the renewal requirements will be base on the expiry date of THAT IR.

If you did not meet that requirement & 7 years has lapsed you must resit the exams.

It changed in Lasors 2010 & also affects the military boys & girls. Where your JAA IR has lapsed more than 7 years you must reset your exams. After speaking to an insider, there are no ex aircrew in FCL. They have taken JAA (just like the judges in human rights laws in the UK) to the 9th degree! It says this, so thats that. Typical civil servants!

I have registered with the guy in BALPA who is handling it. He is hopeful this mess can be turned around, as JAA did not intend to affect those in the military or those of us who fly on ICAO licences.

[Fart Master]

5 Greens, top job! I've sent you a PM.

Has anyone had any correspodance with 'Dan Winterland' from the HK forum as I believe he is gathering names to put a case forward.

Is there any risk that the CAA will completely slam the door in our face regarding giving us a licence when the new EASA regs come into force?

[missioncontrol]

Currently converting to EASA licence with 777 type rating.

This is being carried out by a third party using JAA approved sim in London area and has limited access to some slots. No approaches by individuals will be entertained and must be booked through an aviation intermediary.

If interested in converting that GCAA type rating to EASA recognised type rating then send me a private message, *"P.M."

This will work for anyone who flies for any of the airlines under the GCAA region.

[Fart Master]

Thread creep...and there are several 777 sims in Dubai that are UK CAA approved anyway...

[Black Pudding]

Fart Master

If you are a First Officer and have a P2 licence, you have to also do ground school and a written exam as well as an LPC. The UK CAA do not recognise P2 licences. Its not as easy as a simple LPC in a UK CAA approved sim if your an FO

I had to go to Oxford Aviation in Gatwick for 2 days to get the Rating I have on my QCAA licence onto my JAA and thus onto my EASA when the time comes.

If you're a captain with a P1, maybe sims in Dubai will be all you need.

[Fart Master]

Fair enough, thanks for the information :ok:

[Fart Master]

Just seen Part FCL AMC section, it looks like everybody with a European licence who's IR have expired by more than 7 years is screwed now, not just the UK chaps.

What a bunch of morons....

Surely they will have to sort something out as the authorities now have 100's possibly 1000's of pilots affected rather than just the GB licence holders.

[Speedbrake Lever]

F.M

I've pm'ed to you

UK CAA only said to me i had to have a UK CAA Inspector do my IR Renewal

no mention of written exams

what a carry on - and i've been working non stop for 35 years

flying nice big aluminium tubes

but according to a bunch of >>>> in Gatwick

i shouldn't be allowed

S.L.

[Fart Master]

PM sent back to you.

I'm planning to set up a forum/site so that we can gather as many affected people worldwide as possible to petition EASA.

Hopefully now that all European pilots are affected they will have to take notice. Another advantage is that the CAA has no say in how things are dealt with. Eu-Ops is one law and no agency can interpret/vary the Part FCL which is now available to download. The only problem is that they have also decided to apply the 7 year rule, but I think we may get more sense out of a centralised European system?

COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 1178/2011
of 3 November 2011
laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew pursuant to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council

[Speedbrake Lever]

Hey Chaps

Any updates its middle of April now

Maybe we gotta vote for the " Respect" party

to get anything on this

S.L.

[fly744]

Anyone has updates/news from the CAA ,EASA about the IRs?

[Black Pudding]

wet vee two

F9.2






TRANSFER OF CO-PILOT ONLY

MULTI-PILOT TYPE RATINGS TO

PILOT-IN-COMMAND RATINGS






It is UK policy that all new multi-pilot type ratings included

in a UK issued licence will be unrestricted Pilot-in-

Command ratings. This is based on the fact that all pilots

are trained and tested in the role of Pilot-in-Command.

Therefore, applicants wishing to transfer their Co-Pilot

rating to a UK issued licence will be required to meet the

following requirements:-








Case 1: Transfer of co-pilot rating from non-JAR-FCL

licence






The applicant must:

1. Produce evidence of having a valid co-pilot rating

within non-JAR-FCL licence.

2. Meet the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.250/2.250,

including theoretical knowledge requirements.

3. Complete the type rating training at the discretion of

the Head of Training at a JAA Approved TRTO.

4. Pass the course based theoretical knowledge

examination.

5. Pass the skill test.

I was in Gatwick in Feb for 2 days to get my 320 onto my JAA. First day was class and then a tech paper, second day was a 3 hour sim LST. Then a visit to CAA to get it on my JAA unrestricted

If you are a First Officer and you have a P2 license here in the desert, the UK CAA will not recognise it and its not worth the paper it is written on.

Lost of guys from here are going back to the UK to get the ratings onto their JAA and in doing so are getting a good rating onto their JAA plus keeping their UK JAA current for a few more years.

If you're a Captain, then you will have a P1 License here in the middle east and a sim ride LST is all you need. Some of our Captains are popping back to the UK to also get their ratings onto their JAA just in case they need it.

[Black Pudding]

wet vee two

You read my post from FL610 ? Sorry I am not with you on this

Reference tantrum. Sorry, you misunderstood me. I copied and pasted from Lasors and it was soo small I made the font larger and made the part I am referring to in bold so you understood the part I am referring to ie 3. Complete the type rating training at the discretion of the Head of Training at a JAA Approved TRTO.


Reference your comment What utter bol@x. If your referring to the stance from the UK CAA, I agree. If you're referring to my comment, well that's your opinion. I am talking from experience. Myself and many here in Qatar spent the best part of a year sending and receiving e-mails from the CAA to find out how we can put the ratings we gained here in the middle east onto our UK JAA licenses and to cut a long story short, If you are a First Officer and you have a P2 license here in the desert, the UK CAA will not recognise it and its not worth the paper it is written on is about the sum of it.

Myself and at least 50 pilots, most being First Officers based here in Qatar have made the trip back to the UK to do as I have mentioned earlier.

The information I am giving is the information given to us direct from the CAA at Gatwick. E-mail them and ask and let me know how you get on

[email protected]

[Fart Master]

To all concerned;

Please have a look at a thread started on the 'Fragrant Harbour' forum regarding some potential moves being considered by some pilots in the ME. UK CAA IR fiasco

The petition should be online in the next day or two, and I ask for your support with this case. Even if you intend to see out your career abroad, remember which part of the planet we work in; One bad day and you may be made to leave not of your own accord....

Once the full EASA regs come into place all european pilots, not just the UK pilots will be similarly affected.

FM

[Dan Winterland]

Hi guys, greetings from the Fragrant Harbour. I've just seen this thread and have seen that the campaign the Hong Kong pilots unions started has been mentioned here. We were collecting names for a class action, but it has been dropped. It was quickly apparent that it was going to be too big an issue for the HK Aircrew Officer's Association to deal with, so we teamed up with BALPA and with backing from IFALPA to challenge the CAA's rulings.

The feasibility of some sort of action was looked at - as the rule was clearly nonesence. It came from JAR FCL 1-185 which stipulated that 7 years was the longest you could not hold an IR for without having to renew it with exams and a further test. This came in in 2005, but the the UK CAA failed to act on it until last year when they finally got round to publishing LASORS 2010 - a year late. The result was that if your IR had lapsed more than 7 years - tough luck!

BALPA took legal advice which gave the opinion that as JAR FCL was the guidance document, but produced by a body which no longer existed, the CAA had the power to interpret it as they saw fit. The only way to challenge their decision was through a judicial review which would be very lengthy, prohibitively expensive and would have less than an even chance of success. And by the time it came to court, EASA FCLs would be in place and either the problem would have gone away or a new set of more draconian regulations would have to be challenged. So the plan for some sort of action was dropped.

So this is the situation as we in HK have interpreted it. EASA FCL has been published (for UK pilots in CAP804 CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5000) ) and there is little change. The seven years rule translates across to EASA FCL and is stipulated as such in the new document. It refers to "the rating" and not "a rating" therefore we must assume it means a JAR IR. So it appears that if you have an old UK licence with an IR expired by 7 years, you're still stuffed. If your UK licence has a LPC/IR within 7 years, you have until 8 Apr 2014 to convert it to an EASA licence. To convert either, you will need an MPL type with an IR.

For those who hold UK issued JAR licences, they are automaticly considered to be EASA licences until expiry, when on renewal you will be issued with the new style document. The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.

However, EASA FCL has the provision to add foreign ratings to your licence. Quote: Section 4 Part Q Subpart 1

(4) Aeroplane or helicopter type ratings may be issued to holders of Part-FCL licences that comply with the requirements for the issue of those ratings established by a third country. Such ratings will be restricted to aircraft registered in that third country. This restriction may be removed when the pilot complies with the requirements in paragraph C.1 of Annex III to Part-FCL.


These will be annotated "for (insert country) registered aircraft only". The CAA have been written to asking them how they plan to implement this. No reply has yet, but as the CAA has no power to interpret EASA FCL, they will have to go back to putting foreign ratings on licences as they used to. This means we will be able to keep our JAR/EASA licences current while flying in Hong Kong. It was also enquired if this applied to national licences - if they are still valid.

Of course, most JAR member states did still allow foreign ratings to be added and this allowed their pilots to retain their licences - which is where the CAA stance became so unfair. However, as all EASA licences are the same and a European pilot has the right to chose which authority he is registered with (the crieria is where the medicals records are kept) I can see a lot of British pilots working overseas changing their licencing authorities if the CAA continue with their position. I am about to write to the Irish AA to find out how they will interpret the regs. A lot of us in HK will change authorities if we find a better one - when considering the CAA, this won't be difficult.


EASA FCL came into being on the 8th of April this year. EASA licences were supposed to be issued from 1st of July, but inevitably, this has slipped to the14th of September.

I must apologise for the lack of communication for those who contacted us on the aforementioned g-mail address. As the challenge was stillborn, the correspondance wasn't kept up.

[Fart Master]

Chaps,

All the information Dan has provided is correct and valid.

I have just seen some e-mails from EASA and they are obviously aware of the situation. They are considering a review of the situation through one of their committees, but we can't make any assumptions in this regard

What we are proposing is to challenge the legitamacy of the implementation, not the actual rules themselves. Sby for more info as it appears...:ok:

[ruserious]

Maybe we should try an online petition, if we get enough signatures it could influence things
Change.org (http://www.change.org/petition)

[Fart Master]

Ruserious,

That's the site I'm going to use, hopefully I'll have it up and running later today, we are also looking at the UK Governments epetition site as well...

[Fart Master]

Greetings,

I've created an online petition at Change.org - Start, Join, and Win Campaigns for Change (http://www.change.org) but for some reason cannot find it if I try to search for it as if I am a member of the public. I've e-mailed the website for information regarding this.

On the offchance you manage to find it, it is titled;

UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams

Pass the word, let's not roll over on this and I'll let you know about accessability issues as I get answers, but try to find it if you can in the meantime.

[Dan Winterland]

Thanks FM. Signed.

To find the pettition, you have to type "UK CAA" in the search field at the top of the page.

[fly744]

Thank you FM,great job.

Just signed-in!!!

[ruserious]

Thanks FM, signed up :ok:

[Fart Master]

Petition: UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams | Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/uk-civil-aviation-authority-temp-approval-for-affected-pilots-to-renew-their-ir-without-resiting-exams)

Everybody, I think this link will take you straight to the petition. If not let me know.

I am planning to hopefully meet an aviation lawyer in Dubai next week to discuss matters next week.

Spread the word, I'll post the link on all the other forums over the next day or two.

[Speedbrake Lever]

F.M.

Just seen it and signed up

Well done young man

S.L.

[8che]

Dan with regards your quote:

The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.

Why would you have to do a type rating every year ? As the licence and its ratings are now on for life surely all you need to do is a medical and an LPC when the time comes to once again use your EASA licence. There doesnt appear to be any mention of an LPC at least once in 5 years anymore either.

(for info, I have just added my B777/787 rating to the JAR/EASA licence so surely only the 7 year rule is the concern to keep hold of the licence while operating in the middle east)

[Fart Master]

Young man! That made me smile, I'm only thirty thirteen, so you may have a point...

Latest is that myself and another EK Capt are plodding away. He has sent a letter explaining our situation to his MP, who has acknowledged said letter and has said that he will forward it to the Minister of Transport. It's a long shot but it's just one of a few 'leverage' points we are formulating. I am in the process of drafting a letter fully explaining our position to the Chief Exec of the CAA as we have received a reply from him (Andrew Haines) to a previous letter we sent. I will copy in the BALPA lady who has previously been involved, plus one of the EASA rule makers.

We can only hope..

Please keep spreading the word, the more people we get the better our case.

[Dan Winterland]

8che wrote: "Why would you have to do a type rating every year ? As the licence and its ratings are now on for life surely all you need to do is a medical and an LPC when the time comes to once again use your EASA licence. There doesnt appear to be any mention of an LPC at least once in 5 years anymore either."

No idea. I didn't write them, but this is what they say:


FCL.740 Validity and renewal of class and type ratings

(a) The period of validity of class and type ratings shall be 1 year, except for single pilot single-engine class ratings, for which the period of validity shall be 2 years, unless otherwise determined by the operational suitability data, established in accordance with Part-21.

(b) Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:

(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of aeroplane; and

(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL


However, you will be able to keep your licence current by including a foreign rating, even though it will be annotated that it's valid only for aircraft registered in the relevant country.

[dkz]

However, you will be able to keep your licence current by including a foreign rating, even though it will be annotated that it's valid only for aircraft registered in the relevant country.

I was looking for the same thing in Part-FCL but i couldn't find it anywhere, anybody has any idea how to do that ?

[8che]

Dan,

That does not suggest the need to do an EASA LPC etc every year. If you have the rating on the EASA licence and you are currently flying that aircraft for a foreign carrier, then according to what you have just posted it clearly states that an LPC only (+ medical of course) is required to keep it valid. Yes training "when Necessary" but then that wouldnt be necessary if your currently flying it.

The only requirement to add a foreign type would be to try and avoid this bonkers 7 year rule. It would be rather odd to add a foreign rating to your EASA licence which already has that rating on it.

[Fart Master]

I've not read the Part-FCL comprehensively, but I think what you need to do to avoid having to be assessed if your rating lapses bt more than 3 months etc. is to submit your foreign rating LPC paperwork every year. The new licence is merely a piece of paper to show which types you are current on, hence it is valid for life. The whole system revolves around type ratings.

Confused...?

[Dan Winterland]

8che - It doesn't to me either. It suggests to me that the rating only has to be current to exercise the right. The clincher comes to when converting from a national licence or JAR licence to an EASA one - you have to have a relevant current rating. It should be the case that someone who wants to convert and has a current rating on a foreign licence therefore can demonstrate they have the exerience and skill to hold the licence should be able to. Once you have it, you can let it lapse or keep it going on your foreign rating.

This is my (I like to think common sense) interpretation. However, you have to remember that we are dealing with the UK CAA here who don't employ common sense, have a history of making arbitary and inconsistant rulings, and as far as the new regs are concerned, don't seem to know their @rse from their elbow.

All I can do is quote CAP804 and offer my interpretation. I have asked the CAA for theirs, but haven't yet had a reply. In previous dealings and correspondence, they have just quoted the regs (usually with the addition "read LASORS, it's all in there") and pilots have had to wait to find out if they were successful with their application by return post. This time it's different, because they are going to have to follow EASA policy with little power to interpret the new FCL.

[Dan Winterland]

dkz.

Section 4 Part Q Subpart 1

(4) Aeroplane or helicopter type ratings may be issued to holders of Part-FCL licences that comply with the requirements for the issue of those ratings established by a third country. Such ratings will be restricted to aircraft registered in that third country. This restriction may be removed when the pilot complies with the requirements in paragraph C.1 of Annex III to Part-FCL.

[Fart Master]

Everybody,

Thanks for signing the petition, we are up to nearly 90 signees and counting. But please keep spreading the word as obviously the more people who sign up will add weight to our cause. Even pilots not planning to return back to the UK should be encouraged to sign up as it helps the cause, plus, as we all know as expats, circumstances can change unexpectedly in the places we live and we may be coming home not of our own accord.

Thx,

FM.

[Fart Master]

I've posted this on other forums, it may flesh out what we are proposing...

Dear fellow Aviators,

This information pertains to any pilot who has been issued a UK CAA professional licence (JAR or National) and have moved abroad to work under another ICAO licence;

If you possess a UK issued professional licence the publication to refer to is a manual called LASORS (LICENSING, ADMINISTRATION and STANDARDISATION,
OPERATING REQUIREMENTS and SAFETY), this publication is valid until 1st July 2012 at which point CAP 804 will come into force as its replacement under EU-OPS. CAP 804 is the UK CAA's version of Part-FCL (Previously called JAR-FCL).These 2 documents lay out how to attain, maintain and if necessary revalidate your licence.

The matter to which I draw your attention pertains to holders of a UK CAA issued Instrument Rating (IR), more specifically, the requirements for renewing that rating. Up to and including LASORS 2008 there was a clause in Section E of the publication that took into account the utilisation of your ICAO (In this case non UK) or military IR. I quote/paraphrase directly from LASORS 2008;

"To renew an IR(A) that has expired by more than 7 years, applicants must: ...For multi-pilot aircraft pass a type rating skill test with or observed by a UK CAA Flight Operations Training Inspector. Applicants will also be required to retake the IR(A) theoretical knowledge examinations."

However, and most importantly for the affected pilots (Mostly expats);

"...where IR privileges have been exercised in another category of aircraft (i.e. UK/JAR IR(H)) or under the privileges of an ICAO licence (Aeroplanes and Helicopters) or under a UK military IR qualification (fixed-wing or rotary), the renewal requirements will be based on the expiry date of that IR."

In other words as long as you kept your other ICAO IR valid your UK IR was safe from the 7 year renewal rule and most importantly we wouldn't have to undergo the ridiculous requirement to resist the 7 theory exams, the very same exams on which our CPL/ATPL's are predicated.

Now the bad news, WITHOUT ANY PRIOR WARNING, the CAA removed the ICAO/Military caveat, in an instant rendering 100's of UK issued IR's invalid. The authority state that the rule shouldn't have been there in the first place and was therefor removed, this despite all the other JAR authorities entering into the spirit of the agreement and renewing licences/IR's that had expired by more than 7 years when the pilot produced reasonable proof that he/she had stayed current, for example, flown for an airline. The CAA took the rule at face value and applied it literally, with no thought of the consequences. They have in effect taken away our careers as a licence without an IR is basically worthless. When queried recently as to why they didn't pre warn us of the impending change, and after all they are very quick to criticise us for not referring to the CAA website for these matters, the reply was.... They didn't want to potentially upset our families in case we were deceased. So you see what we're up against... Nuff said really. Although not confirmed, it may be the case that you have to go to an approved school to do your ground studies, obviously completely unacceptable given most of our circumstances.

I haven't got enough space to go into all the details and futile attempts we have made to get the CAA to see sense, so what a few of us are doing is taking legal advice to challenge, not the rule change itself, but the way in which the change was implemented, in effect, without any warning. We have also sent our case to an MP who has stated he will pass it onto the Minister of Transport. The CAA have admitted 'that they could have communicated the change better', the implication being that there was some communication in the first place, which was not the case.

Without even considering the fact that they are treating professional pilots like novices, consideration is also being given to legally pursuing the costs that the authority have in effect imposed on us if we have to do the 7 ground exams. Ground courses, costs of books, exam fees and other incidental costs. As we all know money is a big part of the CAA's thinking, so several hundred pilots multiplied by several thousands of pounds costs each may get them to pay attention and not hide behind their rule books?

So, what can you could do to help? An online petition has been created to add weight to our cause, the link is below, and I ask that you add your signature and a message if you wish. Equally important is that you spread the word to other affect colleagues who don't read Pprune. We are preparing and planning to lodge a legal complaint prior to the introduction of CAP 804 so that we have date stamped our claim based on LASORS regulations. Even pilots who don't plan to return to EASA land should be encouraged to sign up, as you never know what path your career may take.

Personal enquiries/complaints to the CAA, your MP and EASA should also be a consideration to keep the pressure up on the authority.

Good luck!

Chris.

The link is;

Petition: UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams | Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/uk-civil-aviation-authority-temp-approval-for-affected-pilots-to-renew-their-ir-without-resiting-exams)

[Fart Master]

We are at 201 signatures and counting, however, can all of you ask other affected pilots who don't read Pprune to sign up as well. We only have until Sept 17th to lodge a legal complaint as LASORS will be obsolete and CAP804 will come into force at which point I presume the CAA can wash their hands of this and pass it on to EASA.

FM

[Packs off]

Just seen this thread and signed FM's petition. I have recently done the exams again. What a waste of money. Learning about outdated charts and plates and Boing EFIS. I fly Airbus and when I queried if it was sensible to learn incorrect information and study a different aircraft type to the one I was currently flying I got the reply that that was the sylabus and hard luck. No response on whether this was a good idea on safety grounds. Called a TRTO regarding the sim and was told that in the eyes of the CAA failing to renew the UK/JAA IR within 7 years relegates us to the position of cadets fresh out of college. Charming. Tried reading CAP804 but cannot find anything equivalent to the old LASORS reference to ICAO IRs being acceptable for up to 7 years. Now all I can find is a reference to the IR not being renewed for 7 years. Have I missed something or does this mean that an ICAO IR now counts? :ugh:

[Fart Master]

Just curious, but why did you do the exams again. Did you move back to the UK?

PM me please if you feel you may have some input for our case:ok:

FM.

[Fart Master]

Just a wee update;

As things stand we are still in talks with a law company and the government. I have a couple of small requests of everybody who is involved/affected by this ruling;

1. We have received a reply from the government. The Minister of Transport is now aware of our case. The first letter we received contained 2 interesting points. Firstly she admitted that the guidance that the CAA provided was in error. An admission of guilt? Secondly she stated that the rules had been in place for 12 years, we can only assume that she was referring to the creation of JAR? We're not exactly sure what she means. Anyway, we have written back to the MP requesting more information whilst also fleshing out our case. This includes informing them that there is a petition online. I think this will make them realise that we are serious in regards to this matter. So my request to you is to get as many to sign up as possible. Our thanks in advance.

2. As we are now approaching the point where we may be looking at taking legal action, the two of us leading the case would appreciate any other legal angles in addition to what has already been provided, that you feel may be appropriate to help us apply pressure to the CAA/Govt.

One thing is for sure if we give up now then we're guarenteed not to have a favourable outcome. If you are willing, keep writing letters/e-mails or phone to show your displeasure at what is going on.

FM:ok:

[shakealeg]

Good to hear. I've recently sent an email to the Dept of transport with reference to this, along with to the caa with the usual refer to lasors reply. I think we have a good case, these people are human and will try and find the easy way out. Its up to us to apply the pressure to ensure that is not the case.

[Fart Master]

Shakealeg,

Absolutely, everyone needs to campaign individually as well. We need to make them understand that it is not going to go away.

More 'good' news, I read LASORS this morning and have discovered that when you turn up to put a type on your UK licence all you'll get back is a CPL without an IR. you need to have an IR to maintain an ATPL with a muli pilot type.

[Fart Master]

I have just spoken to someone who works for the government and asked what the affected pilots should do. His answer was to write to your MP, even if you don't live in the UK. If you have property include your address in your letter of protest.

Also mention that the Transport Ministry has in some way admitted some degree of error, in that they admit the CAA's 'guidance was in error'

Time is short, even if it's just a couple of paragraphs it will help. The change.org page can also be copied and pasted.

FM.

[ekslave]

Has anyone got a link to the article in Pilot magazine where Andrew Haines commented on the 7 year rule?

[dv8]

Have just sent email requesting all assistance and support from my MP on this matter.
edit: My grammar at 4am is shocking ;)

[EYZ]

I am in the same boat, friends of mine from other European countries are not having this issue their authorities simply issue a restriction to A6 aircraft only, until a JAR OPC is carried out. You simply send you local paperwork to them each OPC and you current!! Easy, it just the UK being anal.

I'm lucky to hold an Irish passport as well as my UK one, and so I asked the IAA if they would issue me a license based on my "expired" UK and current UAE. They said no problem and now I'm a current JAR license holder again, albiet with an A6 restriction.

If anyone has this option, its at least worth thinking about, however there are cost involved, but nothing like resitting the exams and sim in the UK!

[dv8]

I'm glad I contacted my MP he is now in the loop and in contact with the M of T regarding our cause. I urge others to kindly do the same.
This is useful if you don't have your MP's contact details
Search (Find Your MP) - UK Parliament (http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/)

[Fart Master]

EYZ,

The problem is, is that we don't have IR's any more, it's not really a type rating issue, although I have just discovered that I can't even put an A330 on my UK licence on it as it is a multi-crew aircraft, and for that I need...guess what...an IR, so it goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. Presumably I have to back to the UK and put a C150/PA28 on my licence. (Now a CPL without IR, as you can't have an ATPL without an IR)

Everytime this situation is discussed we always come back to the same point, it's a paperwork exercise.

"Bureaucracy winning over reality and practicality"

[shakealeg]

Just sent Justine Greening another email about this.
Justine Greening MP - for Putney, Roehampton and Southfields (http://www.justinegreening.co.uk/)

[shakealeg]

And oddly enough a reply from the DoT today accepting a mistake was made in the LASORS but telling me TOUGH.
Copied below - only took them 5 weeks to reply.

Pilot Licensing

Thank you for your enquiry of 14 July about the requirements for maintaining instrument ratings.

I am sorry to hear about the difficulty that you are facing in maintaining an instrument rating. Unfortunately the amendment of LASORS in December 2010 was made to correct an error in the guidance and did not reflect a change of policy. The UK Air Navigation Order does not allow credit against the requirement to take the Instrument Rating (IR) exams on the basis of non-UK civil qualifications where the UK rating has lapsed for over seven years.

The UK adopted the European JAR-FCL requirements as its national standard for most pilot licences from the year 2000 onwards. At that time it was decided that, to reduce regulatory burden and complexity, the JAR-FCL requirements for revalidations, renewals and the addition of ratings would also be applied to the equivalent UK non-JAR licences. This was formalised through an amendment of the Air Navigation Order introduced the requirements for the renewal an IR on a UK licence. Therefore the requirement to retake the IR theoretical knowledge examinations has been a legal requirement since the year 2000.

I understand that the error in LASORS arose because other related JAR-FCL requirements gave National Aviation Authorities greater scope for flexibility where the expiry period was less than 7 years, and the CAA decided to give UK licence holders credit for IRs they held on licences issued in other countries. These credit arrangements were set out in the CAA’s advisory publication LASORS. However, the text of LASORS stated that the requirement to retake the lR(A) theoretical knowledge examinations for IRs that had lapsed by more than 7 years would not apply to pilots with UK military or other civilian IRs that had not lapsed by more than 7 years. Unfortunately, this was incorrect and contrary to the Air Navigation Order. When this was discovered during a review in 2010, the CAA amended LASORS to correct the wording to align with UK law.


As you may be aware, new EU flight crew licensing requirements, know as Part-FCL, have recently been adopted. Part-FCL also requires the retaking of the theoretical knowledge examinations where instrument ratings have lapsed by more than 7 years. Part-FCL is contained in directly applicable EU legislation and all EU licence holders will have to comply with its requirements.

I hope that this explains the situation.

Yours sincerely,



Duncan Nicholls

[Fart Master]

In the last day or two, we have hard evidence that other authorities are, subject to approval on presentation of paperwork from their current employer, PPC forms etc., allowing JAR pilots affected by this ruling to renew their licences and IR's. This is a clear case of discrimination under EU law, and we will be sending this information to the CAA within a week. BALPA agree with this point of view.

BALPA are helping us, so may I suggest for £24 per year you become associate members, it's only fair given their help in this matter.

As you all know, when you correspond with the authority they ALWAYS refer you to LASORS, so, regarding the ICAO caveat in LASORS, there was absolutely no reference to the ANO or any JAR-FCL references in this regard, therefore it could be argued in court that a normal pilot would have no inclination or idea that the caveat was there in error.

Comments...

FM.

[4HolerPoler]

Well, the 17th September 2012 came and went without much fanfare because it was, ladies and gentlemen, a landmark day in a further erosion of the way things used to be. Today was the day that the UK CAA opted out of LASORS and adopted CAP 804.

From today (in a very subtle manner) we're all a little more European (than British).

But it's serious; if you're working in the sandpit or elsewhere and have been keeping your cherished UK/ JAA/ EASA licence current there are, as of today, far more onerous requirements to keep that licence warm. If your LPC expires by more than 15 months (12 months, plus 3 grace) you can't just hop in a simulator and do the check; you're going to need additional training. Even if you are flying the type on a foreign licence. It progresses in stages but after 3 years now you are (under EASA) obliged to do a full type-rating to get your licence current again. Regardless of the fact that you're flying on a regular basis somewhere else in the world. And without a type-rating you can't do a PC and without a PC ...... your licence will lapse.

Be careful out there.

[Black Pudding]

You say you cant do a PC ? Sorry, but what do you mean by PC ?

[500 above]

It gets worse chaps. It looks as if it is now 6 years under EASA, from another thread:


Under JAA rules:

To renew an IR(A) that has EXPIRED BY MORE THAN 7 YEARS, applicants must: For single-pilot aircraft pass an IR(A) skill test in an aeroplane with a UK CAA Staff Flight Examiner. Applicants will also be required to retake the IR(A) theoretical knowledge examinations.

LASORS 2010

So you got 7 years from the expiry date to renew it without losing your ATPL exam credits.

Under EASA rules:

If the IR(A) has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years, the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge
examination and skill test.

CAP804

So you get 7 years from the test date to renew it without losing your ATPL ground credits.


I tried to argue this with Adam Whitehead recently but he confirmed that you only get 6 years from the expiry date.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Not sure if this is new news or not. It sure made my eyes open when I heard. The 5 year rule regarding I/R is, quite rightly imho, being challenged by various members on PPRuNe and I wish you the very best with your rightous fight against bureacracy.

However, I have recently returned to SE Asia from a sim ride in EASA land which I thought I had booked for an I/R (might as well do an LPC anyway) as it was just over 4 years since my last I/R & LPC on my JAA licence. I am current on the same type on a non EASA but ICAO licence.

The sim was booked for early evening and in the afternoon I got a call from the examiner asking if I was aware of the new 3 year rule? I wasn't and he had only learned of it that morning. Bottom line is if your JAA/EASA LPC has expired by more than 3 years then you have to do the full type rating course again. If it has expired by a lesser amount then the training requirement gradually increases with the length of expiry. I'm afraid I can't quote you the reference but I did check directly with CAA who confirmed all the details. It came into effect 17/9/12 with EASA but was, apparently, only published some 6 weeks or so before that.

I guess that means there are now another bunch of guys who thought they were ok to wait just over 4 years before doing a JAA-EASA I/R and now find themselves staring at a type rating course if they wish to regain currency in EASA land.

What is the world coming to?:ugh:

[Old King Coal]

From the UK CAA's website, I have just had a read of:

CAP804 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804rfs.pdf)
Part H - Class and Type Ratings / Subpart 1 - EASA - Class and Type Ratings for Aeroplanes / FCL.740 - Validity & renewal of class and type ratings:

(a).....
(b) Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:
(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of aeroplane; and
(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL.Surely the relevant & guiding statement in the above item (1) is the 'when necessary' ?

Would it not be the case that if wishing to revalidate / re-activate ones (expired 4 years ago) UK CAA / JAR B737 Type Rating (on the NG), it being a Type which one is currently flying here in the UAE, if one were to pitch-up at a UK TRTO and ask them to conduct a PC (IR, whatever?), in that instance one would expect the requirement for 'refresher training at an ATO, when necessary' to be a "not required" - what with already being extremely current on the exact same type - or did I miss something somewhere in amongst all those new regs ?!

Also, where in the EASA stuff is the precise amount of required 'refresher training' stipulated (regulated), and / or is that perhaps up to an 'arrangement' between the candidate pilot and the specific TRTO ?

I can certainly predict various TRTO's trying to up-the-ante by saying that one needs all manner of 'training', simply as a means to make more money out folk whom are trying to get (return) into the EASA system.

Ps (hence the edit). Fwiw, I was planning to nip back to the UK in the next few months and revalidate my B757/B767 Type Rating (and latterly exchange my JAR license to an EASA one), wherein my last sim on the B767 was in Apr 2008. I was planning to do a (hopefully :ooh:) modest number of 'refresher training' sims prior to actually doing the PC/IR ('coz quite frankly, after so many years off of it, I can barely remember how to start the bloomin' thing :O ).

[Enecosse]

I read, am afraid can't provide a reference at the moment, that LPC an is good for 12 months, you get 3 months 'grace' to renew without penalty. After that and before 3 years you need 'additional' training. I can't define 'additional' in this context. After 3 years as stated complete type rating, and 7 (6) years do the exams.
I suspect there will be a new lease of life for the Seneca's dotted around the UK as I think the cheapest way will be a MEP class rating and IR to avoid re-sitting the exams and a ride with CAAFU.

[Old King Coal]

Enecosse - the EASA link you're referring to is probably this one: Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material to Part-FCL (http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2011/2011-016-R/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf)
SUBPART G — INSTRUMENT RATING — IR

AMC1 FCL.625(c) IR — Validity, revalidation and renewal

RENEWAL OF INSTRUMENT RATING: REFRESHER TRAINING

(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if the instrument rating has lapsed, the applicant shall go through refresher training at an ATO, to reach the level of proficiency needed to pass the instrument element of the skill test prescribed in Appendix 9 to Part-FCL. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:
(1) the experience of the applicant. To determine this, the ATO should evaluate the pilot’s log book, and, if necessary, conduct a test in an FSTD.
(2) the amount of time lapsed since the expiry of the validity period of the rating. The amount of training needed to reach the desired level of proficiency should increase with the time lapsed. In some cases, after evaluating the pilot, and when the time lapsed is very limited (less than 3 months), the ATO may even determine that no further refresher training is necessary. The following may be taken as guidance when determining the needs of the applicant:
(i) expiry for a period shorter than 3 months: no supplementary requirements;
(ii) expiry for longer than 3 months but shorter than 1 year: a minimum of one training session;
(iii) expiry for longer than 1 year but shorter than 7 years: a minimum of three training sessions;
(iv) expiry for longer than 7 years: the applicant should undergo the full training course for the issue of the IR.

(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme, which should be based on the initial training for the issue of instrument ratings and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.

(c) After successful completion of the training, the ATO should give a certificate to the applicant, to be submitted to the competent authority when applying for the renewal.


SUBPART H — CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS

AMC1 FCL.740(b)(1) Validity and renewal of class and type ratings

RENEWAL OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS: REFRESHER TRAINING

(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if a class or type rating has lapsed, the applicant shall take refresher training at an ATO. The objective of the training is to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant type or class of aircraft. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:
(1) the experience of the applicant. To determine this, the ATO should evaluate the pilot’s log book, and, if necessary, conduct a test in an FSTD;

(2) the complexity of the aircraft;

(3) the amount of time lapsed since the expiry of the validity period of the rating. The amount of training needed to reach the desired level of proficiency should increase with the time lapsed. In some cases, after evaluating the pilot, and when the time lapsed is very limited (less than 3 months), the ATO may even determine that no further refresher training is necessary. When determining the needs of the pilot, the following items can be taken into consideration:
(i) expiry shorter than 3 months: no supplementary requirements;
(ii) expiry longer than 3 months but shorter than 1 year: a minimum of two training sessions;
(iii) expiry longer than 1 year but shorter than 3 years: a minimum of three training sessions in which the most important malfunctions in the available systems are covered;
(iv) expiry longer than 3 years: the applicant should again undergo the training required for the initial issue of the rating or, in case of helicopter, the training required for the ‘additional type issue’, according to other valid ratings held.

(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.

(c) After successful completion of the training, the ATO should give a certificate, or other documental evidence that the training has been successfully achieved to the applicant, to be submitted to the competent authority when applying for the renewal. The certificate or documental evidence needs to contain a description of the training programme.

I would bring to peoples attention to the use in the above regulations of the phrase 'should' (which certainly does not have the same meaning as 'must' ) and also lots of mention of the terms 'guidance', 'case-by-case basis', 'taking into account', 'taken into consideration', 'needs of the applicant', 'individual training program', etc...

To paraphrase a certain Captain Barbossa, the above regulations seem "more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules" !

[MontyWithnail]

So, after being in a company for about 3 years on whatever type, any other ratings you may have are lost entirely and you can never fly one of those aircraft again? Is that really correct? (unless you or the company hiring you pay for the full hugely expensive type rating course...unlikely)

If this is the case, that will have a significant effect on the movement of pilots in the industry, since you will effectively only be able to apply for jobs on your current type, not on any previous type..

[Luke SkyToddler]

Wow that's a lot worse than the actual 7 year rule now ... at least the ATPLs only take time and a few hundred quid, the complete rating renewal must be 20 grand

On the bright side, it will mean that the current massive crop of lemmings who leave flight school and buy 737 / A320 ratings will be completely scuppered as they'll now be up for two more recurrent sims (a few grand worth of recurrent training) if they haven't got a job within 3 months :ok:

[FlyingCroc]

Question: How can you get the new EASA license? Can you just send the old JAR license in and replace it? Do you need a valid type rating on it?

[spanner the cat]

Out in QR and facing the P2 hurdle in addition to the previous 7 year stuff. There are other threads here on pprune which relate to the conversion of ICAO to part-FCL licences and they don't give much cause for thinking there will be a speedy resolution to this. The gist of the rules are that if you wish to convert an ICAO licence you have to sit all the exams for the equivalent part-FCL licence.

We already hold JAR licences (in the main) but you can see the lack of consideration of how to deal with qualifications gained abroad.

I currently fly a big Boeing but have lapsed by less than 3 years on a little one. So I'm currently working out which is less expensive, renew the little Boeing or get back into flying MEP and renew my IR that way. Neither option will be cheap :(

[ManaAdaSystem]

These rules are clearly meant for pilots who stop flying and let their licenses expire. Not for those who keep working in other parts of the world.
My "own" CAA have never enforced these rules, all I had to do was show them my ME license and the IR/PC/OPC documentation, and my JAR license would be renewed.
I fell sorry for you UK guys, UK CAA are reading these rules like the devil is reading Al Quran!
The new EASA license will not have an expiry date, how will this affect you?

[spanner the cat]

Well that depends on how your home CAA interprets the EASA rules. As far as the UK CAA were concerned they could interpret away as much as they wanted with JAR but now it's EU law they can't touch it at all. They'll just blindly administer and probably gild the lily too by applying the most adverse interpretation of the law as written. That's what happens with a lot of EU law and regulation in UK.

[Landflap]

Looks like an enormous coo for the Training Organizations & CAA to make stacks of filthy lucre. Fight this one really hard or trump up the cash & time. Absolute disgrace when compared to other professions. Doctors, Lawyers, Accounts execs do not have to renew basic skill qualifications when returning to the UK from long stints abroad. And three years is just inane.

However, Regulation is Regulation & Standards are Standards. We have rarely been able to exchange one licence for another. an ICAO licence was good because most Regulators acknowledged the standard and issued validations or issued a member country licence. The old UK CAA ATPL was long considered (by the UKCAA) to be the most outstanding & sought after licence. Of course the US FAA laughed out loud if we presented the UK version in exchange for a FAA ATR. So, in good diplomatic tradition, we laughed at them if they tried to reciprocate.

Once you have the Uk licence, I appreciate the current discussion is about renewing it after a period of not exercising it's own, unique, privilages. This is where the Regulators really take a long hard look at what you have been doing. In the past, it was sufficient to show that you were in regular practice , on type, with an ICAO operator. Just five years ago, I approached the UK CAA asking to renew my 10 year UK ATPL. For type inclusion, I needed to show what I had been doing with type checks etc. All previous types were shown in Part 1 but for a "valid" type rating, I was required to do a prof check with a UK CAA approved Type examiner.

We have developed through the JAA validation & now the EASA debacle. I submit that the Regulatory Authorities are looking too hard at the renewal process & rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of vastly enhanced fee revenue.

[spanner the cat]

I guess the FTO's did have their input to the framing of the legislation and they probably had quite a lot of weight attached to their submissions by the legislators.

Has anyone not using the UK as their home CAA had any luck with this problem? Suppose it's early days yet.

[MontyWithnail]

I'm almost lost for words. Just when you think the UK CAA and EASA can't screw it all up even more, they do. It really does seem like they're out to get us.

This has nothing to do with flight safety, that much is certain.

What are you supposed to do with your previous type ratings - do three sim sessions and an expensive and pointless check ride every three years on each plane you don't currently operate, in case you need the rating for a future job?? To be honest, if anything, that is bad for safety, as you're then getting negative training for the aircraft type you do currently operate..

The bottom line seems to be this - Unless you work for an airline at home which you can reasonably expect to stay with for your whole career, this profession will get too expensive and too much of a ball ache to be involved with in Europe.

Jesus wept.

[Enecosse]

FlyingCroc your 'old JAR licence' is now actually an EASA licence. When it expires and you renew you will get the actual EASA licence. I believe that regardless of the currency of your licence e.g. 3 or 7 year qualifiers the licence is good. However without a current Class or Type rating you can't actually use it and without a current IR you won't be able to fly IFR.

[Cancel2LateLunches]

From what I have read here it seems I will need to do a PPC in a 320 by the end of January to keep my UKATPL valid.

Am I correct in assuming I can't just find a friendly TRE and do a quick PPC (LPC) and will instead have to go to the likes of Oxford or CTC and do some sort of overpriced 3 day course?!

[Stall Inducer]

Looks like a single engine piston rating would be the cheapest to maintain as it remains current for 2 years as oppose to 1 year on the Multi Engine piston. An IR on the SEP every 6 years should prevent the need for a retake of the IR exams, until they change the rules again of course. Anyone know if there's any rules that prevent maintaining an EASA ATPL with an SEP/IR or does it have to be MEP or Multi-crew ?

[clear to land]

Still amazes me how you guys let them suck the money out of you over this sort of stuff without making a public backlash. US, Australia (and CASA are definately against aviation), and NZ amongst others your licence is valid as long as you hold a valid medical. You renew Ratings, not licences :eek:

[SANDBLASTER]

What is even more frustrating about this whole ridiculous situation is that the CAA appeared to have had no idea what effect the implementation of EASA rules would mean. Having personally renewed my JAA licence last year on the back of an A330 IRT which was 5 years old, I was advised I had 2 years to complete another one on the 330 or put the A380(with a skills test) on my licence as I had more than 500 hrs P1 time.

It now appears even that the goalposts have moved on that as CAP 804 states there is a time limit ( 6 months I think) between completion of the approved course and the skills test.

I wish someone in authority with some commonsense would sort this out !!!!

.

[MontyWithnail]

As mentioned, Cap 804 states the following regarding the exams -

(d) If the IR(A) has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years,
the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge
examination and skill test.

Until now, those airline pilots who did not want to fly single pilot IFR in their spare time just let their multi IR(A) lapse (almost all of us). However, this part of CAP804 implies that only a valid IR(A) within the preceding 7 years will keep the exam passes valid - there is no mention of a valid type rating achieving the same thing - is that just an oversight, or is that somewhere else in a document??

You will return to Europe one day with NOTHING on your licence and you will not even be able to do a type rating because you do not have a valid IR(A) and to get one you will have to do the full course. (How much?!)

Also, the fact that the validity period of the exams is 7 years from the date of the last check, while for the IR (A) it is 7 years from the date of expiry is just laughable!!!! Way to make things clear - who writes this $***? Written / proof read by chimps......

This whole thing is such an abuse of power by incompetent people.

[Landflap]

Well said Monty. I have followed, albeit a bit loosely, this thread & congrats to those who have got organized. You must sign up, as a body & get this jointly sorted. Press your home MP's & get questions asked in the House. I mentioned somewhere else that in the early 70's the CAA messed up again. Having completed a fully sponsored CPL/IR at an approved school (Oxford) & blissfully enjoying life as a RHS jet Jock outa LHR, the CAA blindly announced that the qualifyer for the ATPL would be an additional 5 hrs twin time. We all went mad, shouting & screaming but few did anything. BALPA did nothing. I wrote to the Head of the Board of Trade (that is what it was) and a Lord Boyd Carpenter wrote back & expressed that although it was frustrating, the Aviation Authority was obliged to set the professional standards very high. Yeah, too high Dad for a struggling jet jockey with two kids, huge mortgage & ageing Citroen Ami 8 ! 5 hrs in a twin com at £50 per hour (yes, it really was only £50 in those glory days but still beyond me). I threatened, amongst other things, to set fire to myself & my CPL outside the B.O.T. Offices & engaged a hit man from the Mafia. They quietly & reluctantly climbed down & stated the blindingly obvious " for those who have attended an "Approved" course of Training, the additional 5hrs will be waived.

I am not saying that I did it. Well, OK, I am. I did continue to look over my shoulder for the rest of my career. BUT, guys, get organized and fight these crass twerps for really messing up very straightforward joint rulings.

[Sciolistes]

Until now, those airline pilots who did not want to fly single pilot IFR in their spare time just let their multi IR(A) lapse (almost all of us). However, this part of CAP804 implies that only a valid IR(A) within the preceding 7 years will keep the exam passes valid - there is no mention of a valid type rating achieving the same thing - is that just an oversight, or is that somewhere else in a document??
It is more than possible that I don't fully understand these rules anymore. I always understood, under LASORS/JAA, your exams expired with more than seven years expiry of any IR or TR.

Regardless, I would have thought for anybody with a type rating, your old ME/IR is irrelevant. Surely the 737 300-900 series IR I have on my license which is required to hold a 300-900 type rating is thee relevant IR in this case. The 737 IR is re-validated/renewed every time I complete a 737 LPC so it has the same expiry.

[turbine100]

Have BALPA made any progress regarding legal challenges or any flying abroad who have grouped together made any progress ....

Further to the other comments on here regarding instrument ratings, exams and flight training schools taking advantage. Eventually the UK airlines wont find experienced rated crews in the long distant future with time on type, if those abroad cannot come home ....

[Sky Hooker]

My understanding is all JAA licences become automatically an EASA licence.
What about adding a type rating onto our EASA licence if you are currently flying the machine. Gotta be a way to add the rating to the licence than going through a full conversion course.
Before EASA was implemented 500 hours PIC was enough with a LPC ,and whoop it was in your licence.
All this EASA......what are they trying to achieve.
Doesn't make sense at all........

[spanner the cat]

Depends on whether you see these things as cock-up or conspiracy.

Normally I'd say that these things would be down to cock-up and a lack foresight by the regulators.

In this case I'm not so sure. There was a mechanism for dealing with foreign licences and ratings in JAR-FCL which appears to have been ignored or the consultation process has been subverted by the training industry. The onus now appears to be on an ATO to assess what training you need, then it's training as required and a full set of exams. Of course they have no financial interest in what they assessing you for so everything will be fine. Either that or they've looked at the Japanese and Chinese approach to licencing foreigners and seen the way forward. :\

It's also probably nothing to do with any protectionist instincts in the EU. Nothing at all. :E

[G-LOST]

Any update? I'm wading through these issues belatedly, having just found the forum (as I'm in NZ not the sandpit), but in the same boat. Has anyone actually converted their license to an EASA one yet? I'm considering flagging the IR for now and just getting my SEP current and then converting to an EASA ATPL, as the cheapest option. Is this sound?

[Mr Good Cat]

An update from the excellent team working on this issue:

Hi everyone,
Just a very quick update as I know its been a long time since there has been any news. However we continue to try to get a successful resolution to this case.
The reason for so little news is that after a lot of correspondance with the CAA and DoT we have had to leave all the information with them and just wait to see what they will come up with. As things stood the UK were waiting for the whole of Europe to go EASA and then see what the lie of the land was. We have just received another e-mail from them saying that they are trying, with the French, to get an 'Article 14 (6)' exemption from EASA. Now, the email I received was a little unclear and I have asked whether this exemption is good or bad for us, I await the answer. It is difficult to get much info on Article 14(6), but it seems to refer to 'an equivalent level of protection' or something similar.
On another front another collegue of mine has been dealing with the DoT and has just informed me that their call to him was not negative, I'll leave it at that for the moment until we get more information. He is under the impression that there may be some news in a couple of months, which would seem sensible as everyone goes EASA on 8th April 2013.
So, we are just waiting to see. We have raised this to a european level, so hopefully the EASA states will realise that this is a global business and not some European flying school and that they recognise that we are just as proficient and current as our european collegues.
Cheers,


Also, for those of you with a UK / JAR licence that has not yet expired:

I spoke to the CAA yesterday who advised that you can convert your existing licence to an EASA licence with just a SRG 1104 form and a certified copy of your EASA Class One Medical, plus a certified copy of your UK revalidation page.

Although an IR on type is required for initial issue of an EASA licence it is NOT required for the conversion from a current UK/JAR licence as long as it hasn't expired.

The big catch is the 7-year rule on the IR test... To avoid having to re-sit all the Instr Nav ATPL exams you will have to definitely take an IR test on a type with an EASA-approved training organisation before the expiry. It is up to the training schools to decide how much training you need before proficiency, so even if you are current on a 777 you will have to prove your proficiency BEFORE you take an IR in the sim to revalidate your rating.

This is the bit that sucks obviously - as now lots of training schools will be offering (say) a 5-day course for current 777 Captains to 'renew' their rating when it's quite obvious that they are proficient already. This will be offered at great expense as an exploitation scam similar to the MCC course requirement that came into force for new licences about 12 years ago. It stinks, but I am sure most guys desperate for an EASA licence as job-security will prostitute themselves having no other option.

We can only hope that the above email quote will have some bearing on the situation :(

[Cancel2LateLunches]

Just in case this hasn't come up already. Has anyone looked into converting UK issue ATPL to another JAR/EASA state which are happy to to accept LPC's from a country outside of Europe? At the end of the day a JAR/EASA license is the same no matter who issues it.

[Enecosse]

I think you either have to live in the country of issue or have another suitable reason to change.
I just had 2 mornings at CAA trying to get a type on my JAR Licence. To no avail, ended up with an EASA Licence though, this was by sheer luck as fortunately there was an English Lang examiner passing through in limbo with the rest of us.
So anyone thinking of doing what I did bear in mind.

1. English Lang 6 has to be written on your licence somewhere
2. You have to have an EASA licence, while the JAR is legally an EASA Licence they do not deal with them anymore.
3. The skill test must be conducted by an examiner approved by the CAA. There is a procedure for the examiner to follow to do this as laid out by the CAA and is a one off.
5. Must have 500 hours logged as of date of skill test

[Craggenmore]

I think you either have to live in the country of issue or have another suitable reason to change.

A suitable reason being that other EASA country members recognise EK ratings for EK aircraft only, thereby avoiding the CAA's 7 year IR expiry rule..!!

[Mr Good Cat]

A suitable reason being that other EASA country members recognise EK ratings for EK aircraft only, thereby avoiding the CAA's 7 year IR expiry rule..!!

Wish that were true, but I've been told by the CAA that the 7-year rule applies to ALL EASA states now...

.. because this is the reason for EASA.

EASA is a common regulatory authority for the WHOLE collection of member states. Everything that is written is in stone for ALL states.

JAR was simply an advisory body for states to pick and choose from as they liked (except the Brits of course who abided to the letter). Now we have mandates to be adhered to...

Confused? (I am) and I expect that just like the EC most other states will find a get-out clause for their nationals while the UK and probably Germany stick steadfast to someone else's ideals.

:mad:

[Fart Master]

Hi,

Just a quick update for those of you not in the petition, we are expecting a decision on the matter in the next few weeks. A proposal has been sent to EASA and is in the process of being presented to the European Commission.

I'll get back to you as soon as we have some news,

C.

[kotakota]

While on the subject of the CAA , why does Licence Verification take ' up to 10 working days ' and boy are they taking the ten , cost £44 , and equate to two weeks pay I have missed out on ? So frustrating .

[Lamboo1]

Hi Everyone,

I currently hold a UK/CAA Issued JAR ATPL ( Valid till 2016), with a 320 Type Rating from my previous Airline which Expired April 2012.

I currently Work in UAE flying A320, with my GCAA Licence.

Does anybody know what to do exactly with the new EASA conversion process?

I basically would like to keep my 320 Type Rating on my New EASA Licence even if I can keep it as Restricted to flying A6 A/C only.

Thanks

Tina

[Enecosse]

Convert your JAR licence to an EASA licence. Make sure you have level 6 English done before you do this.

You have until April 2014 to renew your A320 rating. It will require some ground school to be determined by whom ever you pay to do the renewal. Obviously a UK training (not required to be based in UK) org will have to be used. If say a French TRE is used I think the UK CAA has to be notified first.

I don't think that the UK CAA will annotate your licence with only A6 a/c. The Irish will do it though, you could get an Irish ATPL.

[Itchynutcracker]

I have just returned from the UK where I tried to convert my national licence to an EASA but have fallen victim to the 7 year IR ruling. In 2009 whilst on a visit to the UK I went to LGW and was verbally told by a licensing officer I would safeguard all my ATPL subjects provided I maintained proficiency on my GCAA or FAA licence which are ICAO. I am new to PPrune but now somewhat wished I had joined earlier as this heads up may have bought me more time. I have signed the petition and will pass this info on to quite a few boys and girls I know working abroad who now may be in for a big shock. "Lost for words"

[Itchynutcracker]

Does anybody have an email contact for the policy dept at LGW as the one I was told to use bounces back? Head of CAA too would be good. Just want to get my formal complaint lodged with them for what it's worth. Cheers::{

[Sciolistes]

I think that you have four years from the date of your last sim check. So if your sim check was April 2011, then you have 3 years from date of expiry, april 2012, which would give a cut off of 2015 to get it on your easa licence wit a 320. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am as confused by these 'changes' as anybody, but I just had a read of CAP 804. It says:
FCL.740 Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
(a) The period of validity of class and type ratings shall be 1 year, except for single-pilot single-engine class ratings, for which the period of validity shall be 2 years,
unless otherwise determined by the operational suitability data, established in
accordance with Part-21.
May 2012
CAP 804 Part I Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance
Section 4 Part H, Subpart 1 Page 6
(b)Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:
(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of
proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of
aeroplane; and
(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL.No mention of any time limit. The UK CAA seems to have distilled the AMC into simply 'sufficient skill level need to pass the check'. Perhaps somebody can confirm or clarify?

[Fart Master]

Hi,

For those of you not signed up to the petition this is what I emailed everyone 3 days ago;

Greetings,

It seems to have been a long but interesting road dealing with this case. I would like to have made a dramatic announcement just to add to the suspense, but quite simply, due to everybody's efforts we've won! As I read things the CAA have adopted our proposals 100%

As I've mentioned before the CAA have been keeping me abreast of developments and said that they were waiting for Brussels to rubber stamp the derogation (Read partial exemption) as EASA had already approved it. I received 2 e-mails from licencing managers last night confirming the law will be integrated. I've been in possession of this derogation for a while but for obvious reasons didn't release it. Now I can, it's attached to the bottom of the e-mail. The exemption will be published in the 'Official Record series 4' on the CAA website very soon.

So where does this leave us? We are all now in the position of being able to keep our EASA ATPL's as we can now add/renew/revalidate a multi crew type on our licences, which had not been possible before without an IR. However under EASA regulations people may have to go to an ATO for an assessment if they want to put a new type on their licence.....But that's another issue.

If there are any more developments I'll let you know. Good luck with your CAA dealings! My thanks to all of you who phoned/wrote/harassed the CAA and especially to others who kept things moving along as well. You know who you are...

Cheers,

Chris.

DEROGATION PROPOSAL.

Proposed Article 14(6) derogation in respect of Annex I to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 - Part-FCL - Part-FCL.625IR(c) and (d), for pilots who hold instrument ratings in accordance with the requirements of third countries.

1. Context:
The requirements for the renewal of an Instrument Rating (IR) are set out in Annex I to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011, ‘Part-FCL’ as follows:
“FCL.625 IR — Validity, revalidation and renewal
(c) Renewal. If an IR has expired, in order to renew their privileges applicants shall:
(1) go through refresher training at an ATO to reach the level of proficiency needed to pass the instrument element of the skill test in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part; and
(2) complete a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part, in the relevant aircraft category.
(d) If the IR has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years, the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge examination and skill test”.
These requirements are similar (but not identical to) the previous requirements of JAR-FCL. The UK CAA believes that the requirements of FCL.625 IR(d) were created for the case where a licence holder ceases to fly under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) for 7 years. The rule does not take into account the possibility that the licence holder may have been flying under IFR using an Instrument Rating (IR) held on a 3rd country licence during the 7 year period which has been renewed during that period and which is therefore valid.

2. The issue:
The UK CAA is aware that a number of pilots with licences issued by EU States have been flying with 3rd country airlines using licences issued by the States where those airlines are based. These pilots have allowed their European Instrument Ratings to lapse, in the expectation that for the subsequent renewal of their European IRs the assessment of their recency of use of the rating would be based on the status of their 3rd country IRs.
It has been the past practice of the UK CAA to accept that if a pilot holds, or has recently held, an equivalent Instrument Rating on another ICAO Annex I compliant licence, that the requirements for revalidation of the UK-issued IR would be based upon the validity/expiry of the 3rd country ICAO Annex I compliant IR. The UK CAA understands that France, Ireland, Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands have allowed similar arrangements for the holders of JAR-FCL licences.

The UK CAA has received a number of applications for the renewal of IRs from the holders of UK-issued licences who have allowed their IRs to lapse by more than 7 years. These applicants state that they either hold a current and equivalent 3rd country IR or that their 3rd country IR has lapsed by less than 7 years. Accordingly, they argue that they should not be required to re-take the Instrument Rating theoretical knowledge examinations or to undertake training at an ATO. They are objecting strongly to Part-FCL.625 IR requiring them to re-train and to re-take examinations, especially as many of them are currently acting as pilots for Commercial Air Transport flights into airports within the Community for 3rd country airlines using their 3rd country licences with Instrument Ratings.

The requirements of FCL.625 IR(c) and (d) appear to be intended to apply additional training and testing requirements depending upon the period of time since the pilot last used the privileges of the Instrument Rating. The UK CAA believes that it is incorrect and disproportionate to require a pilot who has a current, or recently lapsed, ICAO Annex I compliant IR from another country, to re-take the theoretical knowledge examinations to renew a European IR that has lapsed by more than 7 years; i.e. it is not appropriate to apply the same requirements to a pilot with recent IFR experience as would be applied to a pilot who has not flown under IFR for more than 7 years. It is difficult to see how doing this will affect safety when these pilots are flying or have been flying recently using their third country issued IRs.

Similarly, the UK CAA considers that if the European IR has lapsed by less than 7 years, but the pilot holds a current (non-expired) ICAO Annex I compliant IR on another licence, then the requirement to undertake training at an ATO before taking the renewal Proficiency Check should not apply.

3. The need for derogation:
Around 30 pilots currently flying with third country operators (using third country licences with IRs issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1) have written to the UK CAA and/or to the UK Department for Transport to complain about the requirement to re-take the theoretical knowledge examinations before their UK-issued IRs can be renewed. Three of these pilots created an on-line petition during 2012, and by August it had attracted 500 supporters. Applying FCL.625(c) and (d), without any recognition that the third country IRs may have been renewed or revalidated during the preceding 7 years, requires these pilots to undertake re-training and to re-sit the theoretical knowledge examinations in addition to passing the proficiency check; (flying skills test). This does not acknowledge that they may have been recently flying commercial air transport flights into Europe for these third country airlines. These complainants assert that to require them to do this would impose needless hardship on them – by requiring them to undertake costly and time-consuming courses and examinations. It may also cause them to lose their livelihoods if the airlines in question refuse to employ them whilst they do this. It seems likely that there will be a similar need affecting pilots from some other Member States as and when those States implement Part FCL.

4. Proposed derogation:
It is proposed that derogation be permitted under Article 14(6) of Regulation 216/2008 so that where a pilot holds or has held a 3rd country ICAO Annex I compliant Instrument Rating, the expiry date of that 3rd country IR shall be used as the date of expiry of the IR for the purposes of FCL.625IR(c) and (d):
“In accordance with Article 14(6) of Regulation (EC) 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council the United Kingdom CAA will derogate from FCL.625 IR(c) and (d) of Annex I to Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 so that where a pilot holds or has held an Instrument Rating issued by a third country and that rating is compliant with Annex I to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the applicability of FCL.625 IR(c) and (d) may be based on the validity dates of the Instrument Rating of that other country. This derogation is subject to the following conditions:

(i) a pilot with a current and valid 3rd country IR shall complete the revalidation requirements of FCL.625(b) and the aircraft category specific requirements for revalidation of the Part-FCL IR; meaning that he must pass the proficiency check, but is not required to undergo training or to re-take the theoretical knowledge examinations; and

(ii) a pilot who held a 3rd country IR that is no longer valid but had been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years shall comply with the renewal requirements of FCL.625 IR(c), but is not required to re-take the theoretical knowledge examinations.”

An equivalent level of safety is maintained with this derogation because the necessity to apply the requirements of FCL.625 IR (c) and (d) is determined by how recently the pilot had the privilege of flying an aircraft under the Instrument Flight Rules. The State of Issue of the Instrument Rating that is used to carry out those flights under IFR does not affect the experience and practice gained through undertaking such flights.

Clear? If not PM me and I'll try to clarify things,

Chris.

[4HolerPoler]

Sincere congratulations Chris - this is huge news! What a breath of fresh air to realize that the CAA has (finally) reacted in such a practical and positive fashion.

This news is going to serve as a reprieve for many of our colleagues and will also significantly reduce the costs which would have been borne if we were to have complied with the 15 month recurrent proficiency which was necessary to avoid the ATO training requirement.

Well done and thank you Sir.

[BYMONEK]

Seconded! Go and pour yourself a well deserved malty beverage!

[8che]

Terrific work FM. Top marks to you.

I take it from this it also means that by currently holding say a 777/787 rating on a EASA licence and currently flying the type in the middle east there is now no requirement to do anything other than an EASA LPC once every 3 years to keep it on......or does it stay valid due the third party activity and thus no separate EU test required ???

Thanks again

[Fart Master]

8che, Interesting point that I've chatted to a few pilots about.

2 issues. It seems the UK wants an EASA TRE to do a skills test, however the rest of Europe is still happy to accept 3rd party paperwork for type ratings and IR's, I THINK (I know one authority definitely does it for both parts). The second point is that it is acknowledged by EASA that a multi-pilot type and IR test are one and the same, you can't, for example, just put an A330 on your licence, you need to have a valid IR as well to undertake the skills test. Therefore if they acknowledge our third party IR's, then does it not follow that the same stands for our third party type ratings...?

The Licencing managers I've dealt with at Gatwick have actually done a very good job in listening to our case and then writing this derogation, so I'm going to let the dust settle a wee bit before I run the type rating issue past them. If it is taken up, then the only thing we have to do is an EASA medical and maybe send in your 6 monthly paperwork as proof of recency/currency etc.

I'll get back to you........

[Landflap]

Unreserved congratulations. A worthy battle won, against all odds. Stand proud.

[de facto]

So having one EASA rating expired by more than 3 years while being current on the same rating in an ICAO country should also be recognised and the retake of the full rating not necessary or?:confused::ooh:

[Ynot]

Chris, FM,

My thanks to you to be added to what I am sure it is going to be a long list....
For your efforts and time...We all appreciate it!

We await news on type ratings when you have it...

Safe Flying,
Ynot :D

[Craggenmore]

FM,

Well done and thank you for all your efforts. Although not at the 7 year mark, I had spoken to one of the European countries quoted in the derogation who accept the 6 monthly paperwork to stay IR and A6-type current. I was in the process of switching EASA states but it looks like I can shelve that and stay with the CAA..!

Great work :ok:

Craggs

[krisschy]

First great job, I guess all the UK CAA license holder will appreciate your determination.

To fuel your next fight to get all the derogations which have been recently implemented across the channel, France has approved on may the 14th a similar derogation with the extension to third country type rating.

National differences from the original FCL-EASA :

Dérogations nationales au réglement européen AIRCREW - Ministère du Développement durable (http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/-Derogations-nationales-au-.html)
Page non trouvée - Ministère du Développement durable (http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/FCL740Prorogationrestreinte.pdf)

it's in french unfortunately

It's now possible like it was before on our FCL ATPL to renew our type rating + IR restricted to the A/C registered in the third country we operate, providing the original IR training and check was done in a FCL FTO.

Our French ATPL FCL, are now open for EASA conversion based on the same rule.

I really hope for you guys that your CAA will look at the problem in the same our did.

It sadly seems sometimes that more EU integration means more disintegration !

Good luck

[Fart Master]

Unless you've maintained another ICAO IR in which case the 7 year rule doesn't apply. This is all predicated on you having done a European IR previously.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Tiny bit confused here FM.

I am currently operating on a non EASA but ICAO ATPL with B777 type rating. Previously I operated B744 on a separate non EASA but ICAO ATPL and had the B744 transferred onto my EASA ATPL via LPC at LHR. I do not have B777 on my EASA ATPL.

Question: Will UK CAA (EASA) recognise my IR carried out on B777 on my non EASA licence or will my UK (EASA) IR 'expire' after 7 years?

[Fart Master]

Provided you've previously been issued a UK IR you can use your non EASA licence IR date of renewal/revalidation for the purpose of renewing/revalidating your EASA IR.

European IR's have 1/5/7 year expiry caveats (I think, without looking at CAP804). What the UK CAA will now look at is the date on your non EASA licence to stipulate what caveat if any applies. Simply put, if you don't have current EASA IR the CAA now look at your non EASA IR date. But you still have to do an LPC/Skills test with an EASA/TRE to be able to exercise the privileges of your EASA IR on your EASA licence. But you don't need to do anything now as long as you maintain your ICAO IR.

Your UK IR is safe based on your 777 IR from abroad...

Full acceptance of Type ratings from abroad without the requirement to do a test with an EASA TRE? Now that's another issue possibly...

Clear as mud? It's hard to explain sometimes. Re read my big post and it should now be clearer.

FM.

[Fart Master]

Hi,

The article has finally been published in the Official Records Series 4, #974.

As follows;

Exemption from the Instrument Rating Renewal Requirements of Part-FCL for Holders of UK CAA Issued Licences who hold or have held Third Country Pilot Licences with Instrument Rating Privileges

1) The Civil Aviation Authority (“the CAA”) pursuant to article 14(4) of Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 exempts, subject to paragraph 2, any holder of a pilot licence issued by the CAA from the requirements of FCL.625(d) of Annex I to Commission Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 to pass again the theoretical knowledge examinations in order to renew an instrument rating.

2) This exemption is subject to the following conditions:

a) the pilot shall hold a pilot licence issued by the CAA that previously included a valid instrument rating; and

b) the pilot shall hold or have held within the 7 years preceding the last date on which the instrument rating issued by the CAA was valid, a valid instrument rating, compliant with Annex I to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and included in a pilot licence issued by a State other than the United Kingdom; and

c) a pilot with a current and valid instrument rating issued by another State shall comply with the revalidation requirements of FCL.625(b) and the aircraft category specific requirements for revalidation of the Part-FCL instrument rating; and

d) a pilot who held an instrument rating included in a licence issued by another State that is no longer valid but that instrument rating had been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years shall comply with the renewal requirements of FCL.625(c).

3) This Exemption has effect from 21 May 2013 until the equivalent measures proposed under Article 14(6) of Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 are adopted, unless revoked.

C J Whittaker

For the Civil Aviation Authority

21 May 2013

Explanatory note:

The intent of this exemption is that where a pilot holds or has held an Instrument Rating issued by a third country and that rating is compliant with Annex I to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the applicability of FCL.625(b), (c) and (d) may be based on the validity dates of the Instrument Rating issued by that other country.

Where a pilot holds a current and valid Instrument Rating issued by another country, the pilot must pass the IR proficiency check, but is not required to undergo training or to re-pass the theoretical knowledge examinations as specified in FCL.625(d).

Where a pilot held a 3rd country IR that is no longer current and valid but the IR was revalidated or renewed within the 7 years preceding the intended renewal of the UK IR, the pilot shall comply with the renewal requirements of FCL.625 IR(c), but is not required to re-pass the theoretical knowledge examinations as specified in FCL.625(d).

This explanatory note is not part of the exemption.

ORS4 No. 974: Exemption from the Instrument Rating Renewal Requirements of Part-FCL for Holders of UK CAA Issued Licences who hold or have held Third Country Pilot Licences with Instrument Rating Privileges | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5597)

Enjoy, I'll get back to you regarding the type rating issues at some point in the future.

FM.

[Kep Ten Jim]

Good job FM. Do you know the situation with type ratings? I flew 747s on a JAR ATPL based in the UK for 9 years, then 4 years ago I moved out of the UK to fly 747s with a third country on that country's ICAO licence, and I let my JAR licence IR expire.

I have just been negotiating with a UK ATO to arrange for me to validate my yet to be issued EASA licence with the 747. The ATO tells me I need to do a LST with an EASA TRE. Is this the case or would an LPC suffice for the CAA?

Thanks - James

[siduk]

What shall I need to do to have an EASA Atpl. My jaa atpl is not current IR lapsed by more then 3 yrs but icao atpl/IR current and have level 6 LPL.

[de facto]

You need to :
.get a TEA test even if you already have a level 6,
.get a easa class 1 medical,
.find an ATO that will schedule you the training (if any)they deem necessary for your Ir/rating renewal test based on your experience,recency....
.dont forget to fill all those SRG forms...the ATO will let u know which ones you need to fill and make sure your crdeit card aint maxed out:E

[fly744]

Hi guys,
Any updates on the above subject For pilots flying on ICAO licenses?
What ATOs request before the SIM check and is CAA accepting ICAO ELP?
Thanks.

[fly744]

Hi James,
Have you managed to find an answer to your question?
I am on a similar situation trying to find out answers...
Cheers.

[springbok449]

Sid UK,

What a/c type do you have on your JAA license? Expired or not? Is your JAA license a UK one?

If you have a JAA license, expired or not, a valid IR or type rating or not you can get a EASA (UK) ATPL.

All you need is a valid EASA class one medical and a valid EASA approved ELP, I ddont think the ICAO one is valid for some reason, if you work for EK there is a guy that is an approved EASA ELP examiner.

Let me know if you need more info, I did my license a couple of months ago and it was straight forward!