Paul Phelan 's latest

[Kharon]

Birds? what birds? (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au/news/2011/10/5328/)
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Even in amongst the mess and and fuss of the Tiger/ Qantas tales, this saga must give many professional aviators pause for serious thought.

How long must this industry tolerate the absolute mendacity, incompetence and piss poor management of the “authority”.

Again and time again, no discussion, no guidance, no tolerance, no probity, no accountability and no bloody conscience.

I wonder if the “director” understands the effect of his words on the lower ranks he commands ?; the level of support he offers his 'troops' is admirable, laudable and infinitely sensible. I just wonder if he is aware of the travesties and injustices committed 'in his name'.

If he is not, then he should examine some of the cases with the same energy he would apply 'to the letter of the law' (even bad law) matters placed in front of him. If he is, then resignation, with apology is the only option available to him.

D. Allwood is now prosecuting another victim; it is a very bizarre tale. But, not my story to tell. If it were told, here and now, the entire aviation world would call a halt to this madness.

Question, Is McCormick cognoscente of the loose interpretation of his edicts or; is he complicity aligned with the current flagrant abuse of 'powers'.

Selah.

[Jabawocky]

I love how the CASA folk tried the old character assassination trick. Picked the wrong enemy there:= :ugh:

So are they going to contest it?

Unreliable and simply lies from a witness who was in jail for one is a good reason to have a fresh look at this case.

[thorn bird]

The problem Jaba, is the poor sod is now probably bankrupt, so again a public servant and I use that phrase with tongue firmly planted in cheek, servant he aint! can totally destroy the well being, reputation and career of a citizen of this country without a proper judicial hearing.
The fact that the dpp declined to prosecute should have been enough to end this sorry tale. Unfortunately the Allwoods of this world have ego's inversly proportional to the size of their d..ks, they cannot be wrong and will move heaven and earth and evidence to make sure they aint.
I cant imagine how someone with the apparent probity and ethics displayed by Allwood can sleep straight in bed at night.
I hope this sorry tale makes it to the senate committee...."something is rotten in the state of Denmark"..read OZ

[Aussie Bob]

One only has to look at this thread: Kool Video (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/466520-warning-kool-video-loss-licence.html) (which I suspect, in part, is about the same guy), to work out that there is none worse than a fellow pilot to make a judgement on another pilot.

When that fellow pilot becomes a CASA employee then the problem is exacerbated tenfold. Highly opinionated, judge, jury and executioner and gossip artist, not to mention, quick to judge and quick to report to authorities spring to mind when thinking of aviation industry employees, CASA or otherwise. What is worse is that in this industry we favour judgment by peers over resolution by the court.

Poor fellow my industry.

[mattyj]

Sad indictment on pilots too isn't it? How do we attract more real people into the industry? Are there any left..

[Sunfish]

Did anyone think to:

(a) Locate an R44 helicopter.

(b) Acquire a video camera of approximately the same make and model used.

(c) Acquire a person of the matching shape.

(d) Duplicate the footage with a synchronised camera photographing the instruments?

As for birds on barrier reef pontoons, I can attest to that, so can others.

[Jabawocky]

I think it will bring a "No Camera" policy from a lot of operators in future.

Sure the operations were not nice gentle turns, but when you look at the physics of it, and the reality of it they have only conned a judge who knows know better. The embarked on a discredit the expert witness process on the defence experts and the power of authority was misused in doing so.

Fit a baby Dynon or similar device in your helo and connect it to a GPS, download the data every night. If you have done wrong it will be clear, if not you will have the data every second of the trip.:ok:

Note to self...........remind me to clear my data logs :}

[aroa]

Jaba ... I know of an Ag pilot, falsely accused of something, went straight to his flight data logger... and could prove all that they had to say was patently WRONG. It proved then and there that THEY didnt know the rules.!!
Exit stage left 4 FOIs..!:ok:

So the messsage is.. protect thyself... by whatever means available.

After being falsely accused of something by 3 SAWIs, I sent a circular letter around FNQ advising folk in GA to NEVER speak to a CASA person alone.
And if you do talk, you had better have a recorder,a witness, a note taker or some method of countering the falsities that will arise if you dont.

It is truly amazing how and what these morally bankrupt illegitimates can twist and modify, what is said, what was done. Bloody magicians!!

How do they get away with it. Its pretty simple really. They are a protected species, not an endangered one, unfortunately. You only have to read the Senate spray from the CEO some years back to see where their intent lies.
If you have no accounability, integrity or moral backbone at the top..it can only mean free reign down at the bottom of the dung heap.
All ar$es covered and funded by the poor unsuspecting/disinterested taxpayer.:suspect:
CASA employes behaving badly? No worries! They're saving the world from falling aeroplanes, remember?
Anything can be done in the name of "safety" And they do.:mad::mad:

[blackhand]

The conduct of 28 September 2008, we think, demonstrates that Mr Quadrio was prepared to disregard the requirements of safety to satisfy a need to entertain the passengers. It is not open to a pilot, a fortiori a commercial pilot, to determine which rules ought be obeyed. And it is not open to a pilot to ignore the manufacturer’s recommendations regarding performance. We need not recite the findings that we have already made. They satisfy us that Mr Quadrio was not a fit and proper person.
And that conclusion is fortified by Mr Quadrio’s subsequent actions. We do not intend to include in that Mr Quadrio’s initial denial of being the pilot in charge of HTE on 28 September 2008. As we have said criminal proceedings had been threatened. Mr Quadrio was not obliged to provide any evidence that might tend to incriminate him. The Authority points to no duty that obliged him to assist the Authority to prosecute him or to take steps to cancel his licence.


I can't see where Mr Quadio has been unfairly dealt with. Please elucidate.

Cheers
BH

[Kharon]

"FOR ONE SWALLOW DOES NOT MAKE A SPRING, NOR DOES ONE SUNNY DAY."

I don't believe that two 'cherry picked' paragraphs from the hundred or so pages provide anything like a fair assessment of this issue.

Hopefully, neither will any 'reasonable' person assessing the matter as being 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

That means in court, within the rules of evidence.

Flaming Casasexuals. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

[blackhand]

@Kharon
I don't believe that two 'cherry picked' paragraphs from the hundred or so pages provide anything like a fair assessment of this issue. Apologies if it appears to be "cherry picking".

I know nought of the issue, only what the AAT has written.
Can you explain why you feel the ruling is in error - the paragraphs I choose seemed to sum up AAT's reasoning.

Para 36 states
The same is true of the Authority’s reliance upon the statement of Mr Coglan’s companion
If the Authority wished to rely upon that statement as evidence of the truth of its contents it was bound to call the witness to permit Mr Quadrio to cross-examine the witness. Whilst the Tribunal is not bound by the rules of evidence, reliance on a statement of a witness, not called in the proceedings and whose absence is not explained, would deny procedural fairness to the other party.


Para 36 is in Mr Quadrio's favour, not CASA's
BH

[T28D]

Blackhand,
A judgement is meant to be read in the Whole to make absolute sense.

Cherrypicking paragraphs as if they are authorities is simplistic and invites criticism.

[aroa]

Mr Quadrio is neither a rogue or a reprobate, he may be a Heli CPL that did a couple of low turns prior to landing.. that may have breached the Ops Manual... BUT is that a valid reason to crucify some one, obliterate their Licence, ask his employer to give him the bump, long before any evidence or investigation has occurred, thus destroying his income and right to work,
BEFORE it is proven??? :eek:

Try this MO with a bureaucrat and they would be, and have the PSU screaming like a stuck pigs at the abattoir.

Do tell what Robinson manufacturers performance parameters were ignored.

The dead mans curve?? As far as I am aware, you cant operate a helicopter without going there at some stage of the flight.....No?
Take off and climb out, approaching to land..... mustering ???? Will that have to cease.?? The engine might stop, the mast might seperate... geezus why do they do it.
Unsafe, unsafe !! , ..the sky is falling. the sky is falling.!!

And of course, none of the CASA heli pilot witnesses would ever have done anything like that, would they..? So clean and righteous!

As is the history of Oz aviation, never have so many CASA people spent so much (taxpayers) time and money, to achieve so little in the name of "safety"

And done much harm to a few in the process. :mad::mad::mad:

[blackhand]

A judgement is meant to be read in the Whole to make absolute sense.
Cherrypicking paragraphs as if they are authorities is simplistic and invites criticism.
I asked a question and used the paragraphs as way of introduction.
I am not at all interested in CASA the bogeyman, I want to know under which paradigm the pilot is innocent and both CASA and AAT are in the wrong.

Cheers
BH

[jas24zzk]

What I found rather interesting, was the the CDPP, saw fit not to pursue charges, and yet, the AAT can still uphold CASA's decision to cancel the guys licence.

LUDICROUS!!

Guilty when innocent seems to be the tune.

[gobbledock]

From the article by Phelan (my bold):
One of the most disturbing aspects is that once again events have highlighted the apparent existence of an unacceptable culture permeating some elements of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority that not only allows the kind of misconduct we have detailed to continue, but either supports it or stolidly denies it exists. That kind of a culture cannot survive without the awareness of senior management. It is relevant that some of the names associated with these events he go back more than fifteen years.

Of further interest since this event first started, messrs Hood and Campbell have received promotions, as well as the head of internal legal, to Associate Dirctor.

[Paul Phelan]

Blackhand, I rarely get involved on this site but you obviously haven't read my analysis. If you take the trouble to read the last few pages on aviationadvertiser.com.au (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au) you will find that with the exception of the low flying allegations CASA's entire case was based on the proposition that Quadrio was flying "aerobatic" manoeuvres, and that was based on analysis of the videos by various CASA "experts". Quadrio didn't even recall the particular flight but I know (because I've been there) that flying in that environment you sometimes spend half your time dodging formations of migratory birds so bird encounters are the norm and you don't remember each one individually. And while they were scratching through the videos looking for evidence, it was staring them in the face; they actually stopped it at the 32 second point to measure the bank angle and STILL didn't see the birds. I found the birds on the second run because I wound it back to see what the apparent smudges on the windscreen were. The two paragraphs you quoted, and many more, were full of scorn and derision for the bird evasion proposition, and were the basis of what has now been shown is a totally incompetent and negligent process that has cost this mature and stable pilot three years of abuse, $80,000 in legal fees and loss of three years income. Have a look at the video on our site and see if you can spot the birds. If you can't, don't make a habit of flying over the Great Barrier Reef belw about 10,000'. The birds are in a two-second sequence starting at the 30 seconds point. I think you should consider posting something on this thread when you are thus enlightened.

Paul Phelan

[blackhand]

@Paul Phelan
PM sent

Cheers
BH

[Sarcs]

Good retort Paul! I couldn't agree more, the bird life out on the reef pontoons, helipads and shipwrecks is very much alive and well!:ok: It is just a matter of time before a bird (usually cormorants) is injested by a low flying chopper or fixed wing.

[Kharon]

This makes more sense to me. Breath of fresh air.

Dear Mr. Phelan,

How can this be? I refer to your article regarding the prosecution of Mr Quadrio.

CASA is a Regulator and its role is clearly defined in the Act, Regulations, Orders etc, but there is a fundamental lie in the way Mr. Quadrio has been hounded. This has now resulted in the AAT upholding a decision, an administrative decision by CASA, the basis of which had been rejected by the public prosecutor.

How can any person or operator, without matching financial resources to CASA’s, ever seek protection from the abuses of power and privilege, or receive justice, against the methods employed by CASA as you have described in your article?

The procedures described in this case can only be described as draconian and applying administrative persecution of an individual until CASA’s agenda has been satisfied i.e. win at all costs, regardless of the safety result.

This win, I doubt would have provided little, if anything, in the way of an improvement in flight safety. Certainly it would have caused much heartache and financial loss for Mr.Quadrio. Here is another pilot forced from the industry due, in the main, to the procedures applied by several CASA persons.

In my time as Regional Manager in the previous, CAA, reporting to the then CEO, now renamed “Director”, we battled, sometimes successfully, at times unsuccessfully, several minor “Fiefdoms” that evolved during a restructure. I lament what I now see what CASA has become – one very large “Fiefdom” and one that seems to have unlimited legislative manpower resources and what can be perceived as an almost fanatical desire to use them.

Regardless of what the Director advises in his monthly newsletter, some of the staff identified in your article have become corporate bullies, seemingly protected and allowed by senior management to intimidate the industry with little regard for the real issues of flight safety. Tactics born from dictatorial attitudes, dogmatic agendas, innuendos and intimidation, not to mention threats to an employee’s employer, create nothing but contempt for the individuals. Furthermore, those attitudes tarnish those staff trying to operate professionally and in accordance with the published Government and CASA Charter.

Indeed, the good personnel in CASA all become typecast and stereotyped when the poor behavior and processes you describe are placed in the public arena.
In respect of the CASA Charter, I wonder how many staff, managers especially, actually know of it and how it describes clearly the methods CASA staff are to conduct business?

Here is the link for those who would like to acquaint, or reacquaint themselves with the document.
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_92927 (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_92927)

I wonder also how the industry feels about the value of the monthly advisories of Director Mr McCormick, compared to the actions of some staff and the Charter? It would surprise me if many did not reach a conclusion where one or both documents were classified as meaningless Spin.

I would hope that not to be the case.

In my own CASA executive life I sought to achieve clear objectives, the first being to seek out the “cowboys”. The good operators actually needed little regulation – only communication and some education as to both organisation’s responsibilities. There are still policies mandated by CASA either as Regulations, Orders and/or Policies that are counter-productive to safety.

Power can be a seductive influence; but with power there must also be responsibility, accountability, reasonableness and a focus oy n real aviation issues. It should not be used as a cloak for a near paranoid legislative determination in the false name of safety.

Yours sincerely,
Maurie Baston.
Aviation Advertiser 4/11/11.

[thorn bird]

A video dosnt lie!!!..think so??. The fact that CASA accepted a tourist video as "EVIDENCE" in itself is appalling. Hell I have videos taken on approach where you'd swear the aircraft was upside down.
Its being held in the hand, and the hand can wander and tilt to convey all sorts of interesting affects. People take joy rides for many reasons, to the average punter its an exciting thing to do, bragging rights in the pub on how awsome it was... "there we were upside down with nothing on the clock but the makers name...etc." Its one of the reasons why people get on roller coasters...easy to understand a punter realising his "Joy flight" is a tad staid, manipulates the camera to make it seem a little more death defying and CASA take this as "EVIDENCE".
So what now?
"Who let the dogs out??"...It appears the Skulls attack dogs are out of control, rumours of more and more shutdowns, via nefarious cancellation of licences, senior check pilots busted back to student licences,intimidation of chief pilot candidates and more. Strangely the same couple of CASA names keep bobbing up in all these events.
Is it now becoming an imperative that an operator must fit recording devices to their aircraft to protect their pilots and AOC from CASA?
I have heard rumours of operators having to continually defend themselves to CASA against accusations of wrong doing, where the confidential reporting system is being used by competitors to create mischief.
Got forbid what sort of environment now exists to try and run a business?
it would seem the regulator is now at war with the industry, shades of the STASI. Where are the guys with probity that Kharon quotes?

[blackhand]

G'day
Thanks for everyones answer to the question I asked.
After studying the video on Paul's site, I can see why there is doubt over the ruling made by AAT. Even more doubt about the particular FOI's reasoning to pursue what seems to me now to be a vindictive processing of John's case.
As far as it being "risable" that John couldn't remember a particular flight, I would struggle to remember a servicing a carried out last month let alone a year ago.

And yes, there are definitely birds in frame.
Cheers
BH

[thorn bird]

Well!! Well!! Mr. Blackhand you amaze me!!
A Casasexual and you actually think CASA may have got it wrong!!
Some small consolation for the young man who has had his career destroyed,his bank balance depleted, and his reputation trashed.
All this at the hands of a totally unaccountable bureaucrat with delusions
of grandeur, who appears to have manipulated the law to prove a point.
No doubt the good director will be promoting him in the near future.

[Jabawocky]

Some of you might recall the EFATO turnback video Chimbu Chuckles and I put together some time back, we flew each turn back accurately at 45 degrees AOB with some pitch up etc.. I was showing some pilots this video on Saturday night explaining the "know your aeroplane" mantra, and they all thought it was past 45 degrees more like 60 just because of the illusion as per Johns video.

So I would challenge CASA to look into this a bit closer and have some balls, and apply for everything to be overturned as they know know the corked up!

Whats the chances?:rolleyes:

[gobbledock]

Jaba, the chances are slim. Your skills would by far and wide put to shame these assclowns. They do not like a fair playing field, and even if they accepted your challenge you would lose either way, you may win the legitimate challenge but you would be punished by sore losers with no accountability and an endless bucket of money to fight you into bankruptcy.

The rhetoric, bureaucratic dribble and verbal wankery that the Skull disseminates monthly is a further testament to wasting taxpayer
funds. Senior management are a joke. There are some credible and genuine inspectors within the ranks, but the narcissistic manner in which senior management operate and surround themselves with fellow bullies is reflected down the line. The mighty broom needs to be weilded, starting at the top of the daisy chain and getting rid of Mr Angry, Deputy 'has-been pilot' and His offsider the Voodoo witchdoctor. Next comes the field office managers and assorted project, policy and other BS management positions, then inspector team leaders, we all know the ones, the bullies who have a swag of internal and industry complaints against them, but of course nothing is ever done.

Geez that is just for starters, then and maybe then, could you rebuild the workforce, throw in some accountability, and hell you could even implement standards, processes and systems that work !

[jas24zzk]

Gobbles, Jaba,

I agree with you both. I might be simplistic, but to me the decision that has come about, despite the quality of the analysis of the video by some 3rd parties is unrealistic.

The fact I stare at, is that the DPP's opinion that there was not enough evidence to prosecute this guy and get a qualified criminal conviction, should have been backed up by the AAT.

I'm no legal eagle, but to me that is wrong. If CASA cannot get a conviction recorded in the regular courts (or enough evidence to get that far), then the pilots application to the AAT should have been upheld.


Maybe this is something Sir Xenophone needs whacking on the back of the head about. He seems a reasonable bloke (despite the fact i hate him) who knows right from wrong.

In my lowly aviation experience, i've been on the end of 2 CASA ramp checks, the first wasn't too bad, they checked my documentation, and questioned me on my preperation. No probs there, and then gave me some tips on local operations.

The second one..if i had my chance again, i'd punch the CASA FOI in the mouth. He was arrogant, and overstepped his authority. I dropped into Avalon East with max POB in a warrior. His first line was that he wasn't going to bother asking me for my W&B calcs as he could see I was overweight.
By this time my Pax had dissembarked. I replied that when I departed my home port I was 45kg below max. With that he rips off the closest tank cap and says no fuel in there, proceeds to the other wing, rips the cap off and states not much fuel in there either. I had more than enough fuel for the mission required and had done my sums.

This FOI crossed several boundaries..................the worst i'll make number one.

1) he discussed a low (?) fuel status in front of uniformed passengers (non pilots)
2) He unlawfully interfered with an aircraft. He had NO permission to touch the aeroplane, much less interfere with the fuel system. Had I been as informed as I am now, I would have told everyone to stay where they were, grabbed the nearest copper and had the prick arrested.

No pilot wants their passengers to have an unneccesary fear put into them! They trust you, and to have some muppet come along looking for a promotion to break that trust just wants me to bang em in the head.


That all being said, I am still at a loss as too why the AAT upheld CASA's decision with no conviction

Jas

[Stan van de Wiel]

All this at the hands of a totally unaccountable bureaucrat with delusions of grandeur, who appears to have manipulated the law to prove a point. No doubt the good director will be promoting him in the near future.

Such acts don't happen at the hands of a single Burorat! The system right up to the top permits it, probably even encourages it!! No doubt the failure to disclose such a CDPP decision in the tribunal documents (I am presuming) was the reason the impact was not considered vital in the ultimate decision. Surely such a decision (CDPP) not to prosecute is not made lightly.

CASA LSD would naturally exclude anything that would be negative to their case as they are trained to do in an "adversarial" legal system. If lies won't win, just don't bring up the subject, who's to know. And should the victim go so far as to refer to Freedom of Information, well then there is the Client Legal Privilege, a Win Win situation? the true example of the Model Litigant.

[blackhand]

@Thornbird
Well!! Well!! Mr. Blackhand you amaze me!!
A Casasexual and you actually think CASA may have got it wrong!!And you sir are an unmitigated fool.
You seem to take what is written by others as verbatim truth, when it may be one or the other.
Hiding behind an anonymous forum and trying to insult me says more about your character than mine.
You are unable to present an argument without personal attack.

Perhaps you would like to meet and discuss this further.
Is it now becoming an imperative that an operator must fit recording devices to their aircraft to protect their pilots and AOC from CASA?
No the recording devices are needed so you pilots stop lying about the hours you fly on the MR.
Cheers
BH

[Aussie Bob]

One only has to read these forums to see that aviation is full of opinionated ego heads, folks quick to point the bone and only too happy to spread innunendo, gossip and plain untruths about their fellow pilots. GA has never been able to acheive consensus on anything and has always been full of quick to judge then execute individuals.

My question is why are you so surprised when CASA use the same tactics? CASA are nothing more than a reflection of the industry they serve.

[T28D]

Clinton,
Quite right, in the AAT every "defendent" I have seen is more focussed on arguing the Regulator is presenting evidence that is flawed rather than mounting a credible defence based on evidence that is irrefutable such as using the "R44" as you rightly put.

It becomes a "we said, she said, they all said" type anecdotal rant rather than substantive evidence.

In most of the cases where substantive evidence has been presented by the defence the AAT has found against CASA.

Over use of expert witnesses seem to cloud the issues and the matters become mired in conjecture.

[Trojan1981]

Fit a baby Dynon or similar device in your helo and connect it to a GPS, download the data every night. If you have done wrong it will be clear, if not you will have the data every second of the trip.

Good idea!

How can one contact Nick Xenaphon?

[gobbledock]

Hey Clinton, have things gone a little quiet in Fort Fumble's silo of incompetence in Canberra? Not much work to do since some of these legal issues have been squared off, and you now have extra time to retort to Mr Phelan's articles? Where is your buddy flying fiend, he too has gone quiet?

Although you ramble on about how a fair and transparent process exists within CASA, you and your mate have still not answered my question that I have twice put to you - When will the regulatory reform program be completed? You may be happy to spend time chasing naughty chopper pilots into court, porsecuting industry for not wearing reflective vests in a hangar and visiting ICAO in Montreal and consuming canope's, cucmber sandwiches and herbal tea and other such high level activities, but one would have thought that implementing an efficient regulatory system expeditiously, especially considering lives have been lost due to the inefficiencies of the current program (refer Seaview, you will remeber) ?
So far, 23 years and counting is an abysmal effort in which heads should be held in shame. Do you not agree that 23 years and counting is a disgraceful effort?
Again I ask, When will the regulatory reform program be completed?

And to anticipate the rabble’s usual rant: successive governments of every flavour have been comfortable, over a period of decades, with the existence of these administrative powers and processes in a variety of regulatory contexts.
Successive governments comfortable with lives that have been lost as a result of inefficient governance and regulations on behalf of the oversighting authority, and the inabilty to implement workable regulations after 23 years? Wow, a record you must truly be proud of!

[Sunfish]

Clinton McKenzie:

Mr Phelan evidently had the time and inclination to apply his formidable experience and analytical skills to analysing the video and relevant technical issues, in considerable depth. I can only speculate as to why that didn’t happen before or during the hearing of the matter, so as to assist Mr Quadrio and the AAT.

With respect Clinton, that is not the issue. The issue is why didn't CASA either make a wooden mockup and study the geometry like Paul Phelan did, or better still, and with the cooperation and/or participation of Quadrio, do what I suggested and replicate the video in a real R44?

Nope, instead CASA shot from the hip and jumped a mile to a conclusion.

For all I know Quadrio is indeed guilty as charged by CASA and deserves to lose his license, but that is not obvious from any of the proceedings nor the video. It appears to me that CASA is not interested in the concepts of "procedural fairness" nor "Natural justice" unless it is defending one of its own.

CASA worries me now to the extent that if I ever procure an aircraft I will fit a data logger, and if I ever see a CASA person heading in my direction I will record any conversation with them, or at least not talk to them without my own witness being present.

At my stage in life I have no wish to get involved in some fight with CASA over anything. I prepare for flight to the best of my abilities, but I am quite sure that an inspector in a bad mood can always find something. This is why I will never go to the Birdsville races or any other major fly in. I just don't need the stress associated with encountering "the inspector from hell" of the type mentioned by "Jaz44zzk" above.

[Jabawocky]

Clinton,

I would also agree with Sunfish's post above.

Not sure of what level of influence you have in this matter, but I am firmly convinced that CASA have cocked this up, and in the least should really have a clear objective view and maybe by chance folk will come to the conclussion as Sunnie has above.

It does seem plain as day to me how this case is severely flawed and unjust.

The fact that one of the expert witnesses whom I might add knows more about angles of bank and landing on floating landing area's than all of CASA combined was questioned on his experience tells me that CASA had not done even the most basic homework and that they were very much out of their depth before it started.

They then based this all on an edited youtube video, by a dellussional lier, who was a criminal in prison. :ugh:

Seriously, if this was not so serious, it would actually be funny. It's time for people and organisations to stop hiding behind a smoke screen of defense of their errors, and show some leadership and admit to their mistakes. This would be a good start.:ok:

BTW........ I have no connection with Mr Q....whatever his name is. I have just read the reports.

What you say Clinton? A worthy challenge?:ok:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
It's very sad that we have got to the stage where quite a few professional people I know (Sunfish is far from alone in his decision) will no longer fly as pilot in command, and/or attend major flying gatherings, for fear of the professional consequences of losing a head butting contest with an FOI with attitude --- I can relate several horror stories from Birdsville.

---- and there are a few, those of us (still) in the aviation sector who can name names.

What I am seeing increasingly (it seems to go in cycles, shades of the latter days of CAA) are extreme and/or novel interpretations of long standing regulations. Such has been the case in (amongst others) Avtex and Polar Air.

As to John Quadrio, as I read the judgement, the case was lost when Quadrio and his legal team failed to convince the Tribunal that the high angles of bank did not occur in the manner alleged by CASA.

The rest of the judgement logically followed. Reread Paul Phelan's details about finding the birds on the video.

As Clinton make clear, there is a big difference between an administrative action (and the level of "proof" required) and a criminal finding.

Nevertheless, I find it profoundly disturbing that that such severe administrative action, that it has effectively ended John Quadrio's aviation career, should be taken, when the CDPP did not proceed with the allegation of criminal offenses.

Tootle pip!!

[aroa]

Ausssie Bob... while there may be many disparate egos in the GA industry, you are very wrong to lump aviators in with the CASA mind set.

Some CASA persons are drunk (pissed out of their tiny minds!)on the "power" they are able to wield... at taxpayers expense of course. Anything goes!
Do as I say.. not do as I do.

The perversity, the lack of integrity and moral fortitude is boundless... and those of us that have been dealt a crap hand by CASA have every right to heap disdain on the completely unchecked, unlead, rotten "authority".:\

You can rest assured they can dish it out, but they sure as hell can't hack it if it bites back.

Onya! Sunfish... be careful about making statements about not talking to CASA persons alone and noting, recording and having a witness to everything...
you might just get a threat letter from the AGS/ Aust Govt Solicitor, sicced onto you by CASA, for using yr right of free speech for making such comments.
Wanna see my copy?... its a classic of bluff and bureaucratic BS.
But for those of evil intent that have the "power"... anything goes.:mad::mad:

It should be a subject for ALL pilots. Self Protection Methods : Legal 101. :ok:
Talk to a CASA person alone... at your peril.

[jandsquadrio]

I am John Quadrio, now that all the court cases are over i can answer your questions. I will promise to answer your questions truthfully.
It has taken me 49 years to establish pride in my name so i will not hide behind a false name.

[Jabawocky]

OK, so what do you do now? Just so we know where to turn to when we need you? ;)

So I can assume you are glad about not doing that regulatory stuff :ok:

[jandsquadrio]

I know that you will not win against CASA,as in my case because i am innocent they went to the DPP. CASA thinks you are guilty and even if have evidence to prove differently you still not win. It is sad that CASA are prepared to take the evidence of a criminal with 100 charges against him and spent 1 year in jail for armed robbery dishonest dealings and so on, over the record of a safety conscious pilot with no incidents against him. The reason the DPP dropped the charges is that x CASA FOI a lady could not appear in court because her mother had a car accident and required 24 hour medical care(we found out she was teaching night vision goggle classes. The reason why CASA went to the DPP is because i appealed my license being cancelled.The DPP then went to another CASA FOI John Bezey who has now left CASA, he told CASA they did not have a case.

[Kharon]

The thing that beats me is that this when an issue like this one gets to the AAT it is not a lay down misere for CASA. There should not be reasonable doubt, it should be an industry supported formalisation of a clearly defined breach.

Long before it got to CASA, the Chief Pilot, (company management) should have been able to provide CASA with a pilot file or memo's which provided an insight to the pilot's general approach to work practice and it's own investigation. A 'wrong un' should be weeded out long before an incident like this occurs.

The real safety outcome could then be resolved by CASA; is this a one off event?, does the company culture encourage errant behaviour?; has there been an attempt to correct dangerous practice?. The list of safety based options is long, well documented by experts and freely available.

Was it used, I don't believe so.

Was this investigation conducted fairly and impartially, I don't believe so.

Was the prosecution of a minor low flying issue reasonable, I don't believe so.

There is clear almost overwhelming evidence of this in the transcript.

There is clear evidence of an FOI making an arbitrary judgement then dragging in the 'heavy mob' to justify and support a clearly flawed series of assumptions. Again.

Maurie Baston
[QUOTE]This win, I doubt would have provided little, if anything, in the way of an improvement in flight safety. Certainly it would have caused much heartache and financial loss for Mr.Quadrio. Here is another pilot forced from the industry due, in the main, to the procedures applied by several CASA persons.

Agreed - No help to man nor beast.

[QUOTE] Sunfish.
For all I know Quadrio is indeed guilty as charged by CASA and deserves to lose his license, but that is not obvious from any of the proceedings nor the video.
Agreed - There is a mans livelihood, reputation and happiness at stake here, it should matter that the matter is proven beyond all doubt.

Clinton ; Sunfish. You ask why CASA didn’t do a number of things that you described. Answer: because CASA didn’t have to.Clinton, please take off the lawyer hat and think about what's wrong with this disgusting statement, considering what's stake.

His Mum's (unbiased) statement has as much weight and value as the FOI's. Probably a bloody sight more accurate. :D

[jandsquadrio]

I was stood down before an investigation was implemented,4 months after a CASA inspector from Canberra wanted to interview me.I told him to go to the reef where the incident happened check out the bird life and air traffic out there, he said we have the video that is all we need.Hastings reef is very close to a bird life sanctuary with thousands of bird life on it called Michaelmas Cay which has thousands of birds on it 40 different species. The bird life on the Pontoon and submersible is a real nuisance for pilots and the staff on the boat the helicopters that fly out there. Not one CASA FOI went to the area,guilty till proven innocent.

[Checkboard]

Hello John, welcome to the forum. :)

I am truly sorry to hear of your struggles, and to read Paul's article about the outcome. I do have a question, though -

During your tourist flights out on the reef, was it your habit to throw in a few wing overs (within the flight manual limits) to increase the enjoyment the tourists had from the flight?

[Jabawocky]

Welcome John

My only question is why don't you have a crack at winning back your licence and put these dills back in their box.

There are a fair number of good folk at CASA and the dills that did this bring them all into disrepute.

Maybe some careful guidance from Clinton could actually guide you where and how to strike.

Others have won battles like this before....but its a big nasty game it seems.

By the way, do you know RF up there with the 44?

Cheers

J:ok:

[jandsquadrio]

Thank you for the welcome.

Yes I do know RF. I was on the board of directors with him at the local Aeroclub. We go back a long way in the farming industry also. He is a great bloke.

Why don't I appeal? Well it's like this.....the appeal will probably take 8 to 12 months and if I win CASA could appeal and then another 5 - 12 months after that if I win it will most likely go back to the the AAT for another go and another up to 12 months. Costs can be awarded for each appeal in either direction but only for the appeal itself and never for the full cost. So in 3 years time when I am 53 - who is going to want to employ a pilot who has 7 or so working years left in him and hasn't flown at all for 6 years. Not to mention the cost. I have lost all confidence in the Australian justice system. The judge's assistant at the hearing in the AAT was once a colleague of one of CASA's expert witnesses. We tried to have him removed but the judge refused. The video footage said it had been modified but the judge still accepted it. The whole system stinks.

[jandsquadrio]

Definitely not. The skipper of the boat has no tolerance for any of that sort of stuff and if we did do it he would report us to the chief pilot who would boot us out of the company.

[jandsquadrio]

Clinton in reply to your earlier post.

Paul Phelan didn't see the video footage until after the AAT. The birds did not show up when the footage was played on a Windows based computer. It was only when Paul played it on his Apple that the birds were discovered although I had always believed it would have been birds that made me do such a manoeuvre.

I am a middle aged family man, not a smart arse but I do believe that the honourable members of the bench could not fathom the thought that the honourable gentlemen of CASA in their great numbers all agreeing with each other could possibly be dishonourable. To be honest their party of 9 at the AAT hearing were very intimidating and looking very smug on the first day.

[Paul Phelan]

I don't plan to make this a habit, but in answer to poor old CM's query as to why I didn't drop everything and "apply my formidable experience and analytical skills to analysing the video and relevant technical issues, in considerable depth" etc etc, I can reveal that I just looked through my files on this matter and the date of the first of them shows that my earliest awareness of John and his case was in mid-March of this year. That was well over two years after the event, long after the first AAT hearing and also after the DPP dropped the matter like a hot brick. And it was only about four weeks ago that I first saw the video. Ten minutes after that I spotted the birds. I trust that will clear your mind of all that exhausting speculation. I'll now make a point of checking this thread every six months or so.

PS (Edit) Not quite right John, I just checked my Windows PC and the birds show up almost as well on that so there's still no excuse for missing them.

[jas24zzk]

Not quite right Paul,
there is an excuse for missing them. (we can all see that finding them denigrates casa's case)

I still find it very hard to believe that our system permits a guy/gal to recieve this treatment despite the court system not only failing to win, but more importantly dropping charges due to an unwinnable case! To find that the AAT can uphold CASA's decision just muddles my mind.

Trust me, I have been through our court system, both as primary witness, and as the one charged. I have no complaints with how I was treated in either case. But looking at this AAT thing, it seems to me they have more power than the courts, with a lower evidence requirement. To me it should be higher, as my read of the act says that the AAT has more power than the courts.


Lets assume that John DID fly a wingover. Was it within the manufacturers limitations? Was it an avoidance manouver? Evidence suggests that it was.
Sorry John, as much as I beleive that you have been wronged, the more i look at it the more I see failures in our system, coupled with the fact I doubt you got the best representation.

Every day I read about cases like this, and the more I want to leave our lovely land. The ONLY thing that holds me here is my parents.
Didn't the roman empire fail because it became too smart for its own good?

Jas

[VH-XXX]

I understand that recently a fixed-wing pilot was reported to CASA for "aerobatic" flying when they in fact weren't and they have been incriminated by video evidence, when in fact to the trained eye it is clear that this wasn't the case and also the video has been doctored using video editing software for entertainment purposes.

I hope they have learnt something from this R44 incident as I'm sure the current "victim" has better things to spend his money on than his lawyers.

[jas24zzk]

what a crock

[Kharon]

John, welcome. Your fare across the river Styx is paid in full.

I'll bet if I had told you a story, like yours 5 years ago over a beer, you would have made all the right noises, listened with half an ear and filed the yarn away. You mate, have just joined a fairly exclusive club of believers.

The reality of what happens to people caught up in the system as it lurches along today almost beggars imagination.

But perhaps there is hope, there are enough of these episodes on record within the last 2 years to present a solid case against the method and madness of the CASA actions.

Part of the problem is who to appeal to; another part is the complexity of the issues, the rest is the credibility gap. Who is going to believe that our "safety watchdog" is out of control, barking mad, rabid and as corrupt as old nick himself.

You wouldn't before the watchdog turned it's beady little eyes on you.

Selah.

[notmyC150v2]

There has been a lot of discussion on this thread about why CASA didn't drop its case in the AAT when the DPP decided not to prosecute. The reason is that in a criminal proceeding which is prosecuted by the DPP they must prove their case "beyond reasonable doubt". That is the criminal "standard of proof".

In the AAT however, like Fair Work Australia, the evidentiary burden is only on the "balance of probabilities". This means that all things considered it is more likely that the events alleged occured than they did not occur. The case this was derived from is called Brigginshaw -v- Brigginshaw.

To give you an example from my personal experience, one of my clients terminated the employment of an employee who they believed had stolen money. We called the police who said they they would lay charges but it was highly unlikely to go to court because of a lack of evidence (ultimately this was correct). However we were still able to sack this person and run off an unfair dismissal claim because we didn't have to meet the same burden of proof as the police.

From my reading of the decision it would appear that Mr Quadrio was defeated by the weight of uncontested evidence. If he had managed to present the evidence as demonstrated by Mr Phelan it is highly unlikely that he would have lost his case. At the end of the day they didn't see the birds and they were swamped by the weight of CASA evidence.

I also think there was an element of another kind at play in the Tribunal Members mind. Mr Quadrio was a competent and popular pilot who was supported by his employer. I personally think that the Members thought that by making this decision it wouldn't take much time for Mr Quadrio to make an application to CASA to reinstate his licence and get back in the air. The finding by CASA that Mr Quadrio is not a fit and proper person is able to be overturned at whim (I believe) and I think the AAT were of the view that once a message had been sent, CASA would duly overturn their decision (perhaps after requiring a grovelling apology to justify their actions).

Time will tell if my intuition is correct, perhaps Mr Quadrio is so burnt by the process that he never wants to fly again.

On a related note it's funny how your senses can be fooled in chopper. Last year I took my son on a chopper flight down at the 12 Apostles and I thought the turns felt really steep. They weren't in truth and they were quite slow but not being used to it I thought they were fast and sharp. A quick look at the instruments fixed that up in my mind.

It is indeed a pity for Mr Quadrio that a fool with a phone camera and a big mouth has ruined his life. I hope the bastard reads these forums (probably does as a wannabe) and realises the misery his stupidity has caused.

[Sarcs]

As Allan Kessing alludes to in his interview with Richard Fidler: Allan Kessing - ABC Conversations with Richard Fidler (http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/04/04/3181209.htm) , once you start up the machine (the bureaucracy) it is very hard to switch it off! By the time Allan's case went to court the whole issue had blown over. But because the slow wheels of justice had started turning the Courts, AFP etc had to see it through to save face and political careers!

This is the same story in jandsquadrio's case and because he is the 'little bloke', he is deemed to be expendable.

As with Allan and John, I too personally bare witness to this fact as I fight for my career against a prosecution from the AFP:cool: in a case that has been going on for nearly two years!:ugh:

So good luck John!

[gobbledock]

jandsquadrio, indeed, welcome to prune!
The first thing you will learn is that bureaucrats like Clinton will be regularly trolling around here, pretending they are not in any way linked to the Regulator, and will be vocally defending CASA yada yada yada. So just ignore the suckhole.

Indeed John, you are now a member of a growing club of individuals disembowelled by the Regulator for no better reason than simply hurting an ego, pointing out a truth or exposing an act of unprovoked malfeasance. Most are also retirement aged crusty old has-beens capable of nothing better than bludging off the taxpayer while hiding behind a protective cocoon, industry doesn't want them because they are as useful as a 2 day old tampon.

My mate Kharon, always love your posts:
Part of the problem is who to appeal to; another part is the complexity of the issues, the rest is the credibility gap. Who is going to believe that our "safety watchdog" is out of control, barking mad, rabid and as corrupt as old nick himself. Perhaps this is their origin: Revelation 12:9 "So down the great Dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth, he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him" ??

[blackhand]

our "safety watchdog" is out of control, barking mad, rabid and as corrupt as ....
a deliquent russian bear that is going to destroy our very existence and way of life, oh sorry
thought we where talking about political correctness:cool:

[Frank Arouet]

I believe CASA have more than the means to dispense justice with a fair hand, however they consistently demonstrate that they misuse the tools available to them, such as to have track proven they do indeed, understand the simple useable fact that a pilot's need for instant decision making can be used by them in any connived/ altered/ corrupt or contempt of Court hindsight, to prosecute their cause in an adversarial manner.


Only the Federal Family Court is more adversarial.


The “AAT” as a means of redress is a farce only eclipsed by “FAIR WORK AUSTRALIA” (without prejudice to either Qantas or The Unions), and it's my opinion that both are tainted with vested interests. Any complaint to your Minister will need to run the gauntlet of our Governor General who signs off on things as the Mother in Law of another Minister with more vested interests.


As for industry cohesion, I would suggest, and I have said many times, that CASA are only as strong as their opposition is weak. This is demonstrated daily as previously noted, of industry disunity, and until everyone sees/ believes /and advertises/ and annoys the poor bloody travelling public, the “FACT” that CASA are “INCOMPETENT” and their precious lives are being used as pawns in a “Yes Minister” comedy, (Greek tragedy), in the trial of the “HOLE IN THE GROUND” which their loved ones are trusting dead victims, nothing will be done regardless of Government in power. Seaview and Reg 206 to the square of 10 may get those headlines. (God forbid this happens).


The words “INCOMPETENT” and “I TOLD YOU SO” are words for the media that may bring about a change.


Fighting windmills by yourself is a waste of time.

[aroa]

Jeezus... "Wheels Up" McKenzie... you could get a job with CASA !!

The business that had a thief, relieved itself of that dishonest person, and rightfully so.
That person could wander off, and was free get another job of the same kind if he so wishes.

In the Quadrio case, the AAT "conviction", in the lesser degree of proof...ie, not beyond reasonable doubt... as not a "fit and proper person" has resulted in Mr Quadrio being given a lifetime penalty, NOT to be able to work as a helicopter pilot ever again, because his licence/work permit, to do so is CANCELLED

Mr Quadrio is not 'free' like the thief to take up like employment elsewhere.

Not a penalty, a fine or a 3 month suspension.? Well he's had that and more, the cost already for 3 years of no job or livelihood.

How does that compare with CASA persons that are "not fit and proper" IMO to be in the job, that have commited perjury and conspired with others and breached the criminal provisions in the CAC Act...all to attempt bring about a criminal conviction. ? Still on the public payroll, I kid you not.

No contest.!! They are protected by the CASA "system" and by whatever it takes.

The Quadrio episode is nothing new, it has been going on for decades.

CASA is the Gadaffi regime of the GAFA. A revolution in political backbone is as badly needed as ever. We, the aviators must " bust a gut' to bring down this regime in its current form.

And by the way, Clinton, who is it that writes the regs these days..?
Not the G -G ???

[Sunfish]

I wonder if the You Tube video had a title like "A visit to the Barrier reef" and that there was music instead of a laugh track, if the pilot would ever have been prosecuted? I think not.

Needless to say, no cameras ever again on any aircraft Sunfish flies.

To put it another way; in my youth I worked at a chemical plant with a highly unionised workforce.

I remember learning "Tell 'em nothing". I suspect that pilots are now adopting that approach out of simple caution, knowing that any disclosure can result in prosecution.

Since getting out of the stock market I've been wavering about an aviation investment. Threads like this make it unlikely because the risk is too high since there is no consistent interpretation of the regulations. We are always guessing what CASA will accept.

[Wallsofchina]

They'd already be watching you Sunfish

[VH-XXX]

I've been wavering about an aviation investment

Interesting use of the word "investment!"

[jas24zzk]

The business that had a thief, relieved itself of that dishonest person, and rightfully so.
That person could wander off, and was free get another job of the same kind if he so wishes.

In the Quadrio case, the AAT "conviction", in the lesser degree of proof...ie, not beyond reasonable doubt... as not a "fit and proper person" has resulted in Mr Quadrio being given a lifetime penalty, NOT to be able to work as a helicopter pilot ever again, because his licence/work permit, to do so is CANCELLED

Mr Quadrio is not 'free' like the thief to take up like employment elsewhere.


WELL SAID!!

If you stare at a person willing to lie/cheat/steal from their boss, you can draw no further conclusion that said person does not want the job anyway. So them getting pissy about getting the sack is just another kick in the nads, and they should rightly lose any unfair dismissal claim.

If you don't like the job, then the way out is the same way as the way you came in.


In Mr Quadrio's case...seems to me, he loved his job. Why would he jeopardise it intentionally. Doesn't make sense that he would to me.

[thorn bird]

Franks post makes some worthy points.
It occurs to me that we as lay people look at these things from the point of view of "Justice."
The law is not about justice, its about winning.
People from the legal fraternity like Macca are not concerned with justice,
they get paid to win, whether they are acting for the prosecutor or the defence.
Its sad, but on the day it turned out John's legal team were beaten by CASA's, we are looking with hindsight and seeing an injustice, unfortunately too late.
We also express anger at the regulators for perpetrating what we perceive as an injustice, but in reality they are not concerned with justice either. They are what we call public servants and we imagine they are employed to serve the public where in fact they serve whatever agenda their department requires and to a large extent themselves, notches on their guns can mean promotion, so why are we surprised that they will, and do, manipulate the system to gain a win.
Frank is right, we get the regulator we deserve because our apathy allows them to exploit us with a "divide and rule" philosophy.
The time to defend guys like John should have been long before it escalated into the AAT farce.
Until the Industry stops waring with itself and forms strong associations that can counter events like John's, and also bring wayward members into line as well, CASA is going to walk all over us. Remember their charter does not require them to foster anything except more regulation.
For a good example of how to get CASA off your back just look at the enormous strides the Ag boys have made, the RAA is also starting to get its act together as well, divided we fall united we win, never truer words were spoken.
If John's case had occured in the USA, certain Pollies would have received a flood of angry mail on their desk, has anyone written to their local member expressing outrage about John's treatment?

[004wercras]

What is really frustrating is the double standards that are constantly displayed by the regulator. Mr Quadrio gets done in by a dodgy punter taking a happy snap video. A video which never at any time focusses on the instrument panel or gives you are real appreciation of the 'big picture'. Meanwhile a person in a position of authority (i.e. high up the food chain) and PIC of this flight....
• After completing upper air work the captain took control of the aircraft. He then asked the crew if they had seen a Stuka dive, the aircraft then pitched up steeply and commenced a wingover to the left. Upon rolling out of the manoeuvre the pilot noticed the aircraft was pointed directly at a large tourist boat crowded with people. The captain continued the dive to within approximately 300 meters and 200 feet above the vessel before breaking off and flying alongside. The aircraft then proceeded a few miles west of the vessel at 200 ft, the captain handed control back to the pilot and instructed them to commence a stick shaker climb from 200 feet back to altitude for the return flight.
.....still continues to operate and keep both his position of authority and his license!!:ugh: Also bare in mind that the flight above was carried out in a transport category aircraft which is contracted to the government. Hardly compares to Mr Quadrio's R44 scenic flights!:=

[Wallsofchina]

So what does the splattered skull have to say about all this?

[aroa]

Nothing. CASA is the house of double standards and inconsistency.

[Sarcs]

• After completing upper air work the captain took control of the aircraft. He then asked the crew if they had seen a Stuka dive, the aircraft then pitched up steeply and commenced a wingover to the left. Upon rolling out of the manoeuvre the pilot noticed the aircraft was pointed directly at a large tourist boat crowded with people. The captain continued the dive to within approximately 300 meters and 200 feet above the vessel before breaking off and flying alongside. The aircraft then proceeded a few miles west of the vessel at 200 ft, the captain handed control back to the pilot and instructed them to commence a stick shaker climb from 200 feet back to altitude for the return flight.

A very reliable source has told me this flight was conducted very close to Hastings Reef! It had a full crew (reliable witnesses) complement on board and was only part of a very irregular 'Training Flight'.

I wonder if some of the tourists on board the boat got some pictures or maybe even video footage of the low level aerobatics??

[bankrunner]

Not the same government contracted transport category aircraft of which a video (now deleted) was seen on YouTube, shot from the inside of the aircraft while it was flying very low around the Kakadu gorges at 200+ KIAS with EGPWS going nuts?

[004wercras]

Not the same government contracted transport category aircraft of which a video (now deleted) was seen on YouTube, shot from the inside of the aircraft while it was flying very low around the Kakadu gorges at 200+ KIAS with EGPWS going nuts?

That would be the one! Oh and you mean this video:

HOFO TEST FLIGHT - YouTube

[Fantome]

If John's case had occured in the USA, certain Pollies would have received a flood of angry mail on their desks. Has anyone written to their local member expressing outrage about John's treatment?

Nail on the head there thorn bird.

Whosoever on PPRuNe is aggrieved by the irregularities of the
Quadrio case - write to your MHR and to all the senators representing your state and politely request that John's licence be returned to him as a
matter of urgency so he may resume gainful employment in his industry. Point out that a grave miscarriage of 'justice' has occured. At John's trials the testimony of many highly respected people in the industry who know and have worked with John over several years was barely given credence.

John neither seeks nor has the wherewithal to mount any further appeal. It is true that sometimes a well worded request to our elected representatives can yield favourable results. John is not alone in having been singled out for persecution. Our recent history is littered with numerous similar cases across more than one field. It may not be a vain hope that some of our representatives can acknowledge this and themselves sense some degree of outrage.

First though, send an email to John and ask him to briefly list the salient points of his case history so that letters to the pollies will be clear and consistent. Ask him for copies of testimonies as to his character and his sensible, safe and mature approach to all his flying. Attach them to your letter.

[Sarcs]

Warren Entsch is John's local member and a good bloke as well. It wouldn't hurt to write an e-mail to Senator X with a list of names of concerned citizens!

[Kharon]

Here on Pprune - Rotorheads - Warning: Beware the camera.

I was puzzling on JQ' s little problem and a light came on; wonder what the chopper boys and girls thought about the whole sorry mess.

Well, they are all over it - big time.

Should have thought about it a bit before shooting, perhaps. :D

The only dopey question is the one you failed to ask. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Re. the AMSAR Dornier, as these SAR operators have all sorts of low level approvals, has it occurred to the critics that what they were doing may have been completely kosher, and that is the reason why no "action" has been forthcoming from CASA???
Just a thought.
Tootle pip!!

[Wallsofchina]

Rather than lecturing us about an aircraft with a proximity warning going off being normal operations LeadSled, what about using your connections to actually do something useful and right the wrong which has been done here.

[Andy_RR]

Curiosity got the better of me, so I saved the video frame pictures on the AviationAdvertiser report and had a hack with Photoshop. This is what I came up with on what I judged to be the 'worst-case' frame...

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/310876_10150369874832804_540947803_8649920_1417237481_n.jpg

[Sarcs]

Andy_RR well captured, how long was it hanging at that angle? Did the chopper fall from that frame to vertical down (wing over) or did the angle shallow out (recover)?:ok:

LeadSled although it isn't relevant to this thread here is the low level approval for 'said' operator:

Schedule 1 Extent of exemption
The exemption extends only to the directions under subregulation 150 (2) of
CAR 1988 that are contained in paragraph 4.5 of CAO 29.5.
Schedule 2 Conditions
1 The operator must ensure that dropping operations are conducted in
accordance with the operator's operations manual and the Australian Maritime
Safety Authority (AMSA) manual of Search and Rescue Standards and
Procedures.
2 The dropping operations may only be carried out for emergency relief, search
and rescue or for training associated with search and rescue operations.
3 The operator must include a copy of this instrument in the operator's
operations manual.
4 The operator and pilot in command of an aircraft operated by the operator
must ensure that no persons or livestock are in the drop site intended for the
alighting of dropped stores.
5 Despite clause 4, lightweight trail lines may alight outside of the drop site.
6 The operator must ensure, with the exception of the approval, permission and
exemption, all other requirements of CAO 29.5 are be complied with.
7 The operator must ensure that if a flight below 500 feet AGL is required, it
must be conducted in accordance with the ********** Pty Limited Low Flying
Approval and the operator's operations manual current at the time of this
instrument and as revised from time to time.
8 The operator must ensure that for every dropping operation, 1 of the following
aircraft systems is operational:
(a) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS);
(b) Auto Dependent Surveillance Broadcast System (ADSB).
9 The operator must ensure that appropriate radio broadcasts on both the area
and CTAF frequencies are made if dropping is within a lane of entry or within
5 miles of an aerodrome.
10 The operator must obtain the approval of Air Traffic Control before any
dropping operation is carried out in a control zone.
11 The pilot in command of the operator's aircraft must ensure that adequate
separation is maintained if air traffic is identified in the area of a dropping
operation.
12 The operator and the pilot in command of the operator's aircraft must ensure
that the aircraft is not flown directly over any building during the approach
and departure from the drop site.
13 The pilot in command of the operator's aircraft must remain wings level on
the approach run to the drop site.
14 The operator and pilot in command of an aircraft operated by the operator
must ensure that only persons required for the dropping operation are carried
in the aircraft.
Instrument number CASA EX25/11 Page 2 of 3 pages

copied from this thread: http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/454997-casa-investigates-3.html

It also states, in that thread, that the video flight was a flight test after the aircraft had come out of heavy maintenance!

Now back to the thread......the REPCON quote was ment to highlight the double standards portrayed by the regulator!:ugh:

[Jabawocky]

Good work Andy :ok:

Retard Vehicle guys are not all that silly;)

As I said previously, having video of a dead ring 45 degree AOB turn back which was with a fixed camera not one bobbing around, the illusion was that of more like 60.

How you get nailed for a dodgy bit of video from a proven liar and criminal is beyond me.

[Checkboard]

Because in a court case claims must be proven - so a solicitor can utilise a more passive strategy, relying on the weakness of the accusation's proof to not meet the required standard.

In a tribunal case, claims are decided only on the balance of probabilities - so the defence strategy must be much more proactive in using the evidence to show you didn't do anything wrong, rather than relying on the opposition's evidence "failing to prove" anything.

This tribunal case appears to have had a poorly prepared defence. The angle of bank picture from a few posts ago would have been an obvious thing to bring to the court - along with flight manuals demonstrating there is no angle of bank limit, and so on.

Having said that - CASA is "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't". This very thread is saying "Why no action on THIS video", yet when they do take action it's "Why attack THIS bloke!" (Note - I think that this heli pilot is innocent of any wrong doing, on the basis of the video and pics I have seen.)

[Jabawocky]

Read through Paul Phelan's full article again, and read the actual report. The defence put over most of the issues brought up in this thread in a most positive and strong manner. The problem with tribunals is that they can pick and choose. They chose to disregard so much of the defence argument, claiming it was unreliable despite strong evidence to the contrary. They chose to accept much CASA evidence despite it being so clearly proven inaccurate. It was as if they were penalising the defence to make up for the fact that the CASA case was so badly delivered. Like they were saying, "Let's make everyone think we are fair by watering down the defence case back down to a level where CASA won't be made to look so weak."

[Andy_RR]

Understand that government is merely a protection racket and you'll begin to understand why indifference, corruption, apparent ineptitude, collusion and bloody-mindedness are the hallmarks when you get to deal with it.

The AAT is a government-controlled institution. CASA is a government entity. Even the judiciary is paid for by the government - especially the magistrates courts. Are you seeing a conflict of interest yet...? They have a darwinian instinct to keep the whole show on the road and they will do that in whatever manner is necessary.

All this democracy and rule-of-law stuff is just a PR stunt to keep the masses content - i.e. those who are not staring down the barrel of 'justice'.

Look at Syria and see what a government will do to stay in power. If you think Australia is much different, you are sadly deluded. OWS protests in Sydney and Melbourne were where the 'regime' gave you a sneak-peak of its true colours...

[gobbledock]

Andy_RR, bingo !!

John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton:
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
This term aptly, perfectly and unequivocally describes governments.

[aroa]

As well as all the above, in AAT Quadrio they asked that one person be set aside, as he is a mate of one of the CASA persons.!

So even if he is as clean as the driven snow, there is a conflict of interest...and a perception of bias...which there was,IMHO

Same with the rotten CASA system where CASA persons "investigate" other CASA persons. Like the CASA newby/ex cop that "dealt " with my case, isnt likely to sh*t in his new nest and find against his colleagues.
So he didnt... failing to reveal relevant facts, a half arsed "investigation", and a bit of verballing thrown in.! Whatever it takes.

Funny isnt it, that 2 other non CASA investigations found in my favour!

What a gutless, spineless bunch of mfs run the rotten place :mad::mad::mad:

[Frank Arouet]

Reverse psychology obviously.:ooh:

[Andy_RR]

So what's the explanation for the AAT decisions that go against CASA?

An investment in the Public Relations stunt.

The charade falls over if it becomes too obvious and then they have to escalate to more powerful, but higher risk measures. Sometimes winning a battle is less important than...

[Andy_RR]

Are you trusted to operate any kind of safety critical or valuable machinery on your own? If so, heaven help us.

I can tell you're part of 'the Establishment', Clinton, because you've just used the first method that they use - i.e. attempt to discredit those who refuse to acquiesce.

[blackhand]

So what's the explanation for the AAT decisions that go against CASA? There you go, bringing logic into an argument Clinton. It doesn't help the conspiracy cause at all.:E

The charade falls over if it becomes too obvious and then they have to escalate to more powerful, but higher risk measures. Sometimes winning a battle is less important than... You're at Byron with Gobbleduck, fess up now, too many bongs before dinner.

It's the Illuminati working behind the scenes.:ok:

[gobbledock]

Aagh yes and right on cue in comes blackhead, always the quintessential smart arse who has been deluded into believing he is somewhat of a gift to aviation and know's eveything, but in reality knows little.
If you lived your life looking outside of the box for once you would see some interesting things in this world.

You're at Byron with Gobbleduck, fess up now, too many bongs before dinner. Small minded insults by a perpetuator of ignorance and arrogance. I am hoping you are either a young bloke with lots of finger burning lessons yet to come in life, or you are you are an older bloke with stacks of money invested in super because the next 12-24 months will see a lot of that stripped away, and that is :ok:

[blackhand]

quintessential smart arse:ok:
I'm embarrassed by your praise.:cool:

[Sarcs]

bh & gb do you guys follow each other around hijacking threads so you can sling off at each other?:=

Meanwhile old mate John is sitting up on the tablelands wondering if he will ever get his helo license back!:ugh:

How would you feel if all of sudden you had to go an pick strawberrys, grind coffee or lug around 60 kg bunches of bananas? There the sort of jobs you do when you are trying to get a gig flying....:mad:sheeesh get a life you blokes (or gals)!

[gobbledock]

Hijack is a very strong word.
For the sake of peace I shall desist from sparring with the other person.

For the record I strongly support John, he has been landed a knockout punch and the powers at play in Canberra have no conscience or remorse for the untold pain and distress they have caused this bloke.
Hold your head up high John, at least you can go to sleep at night with a clean conscience, dignity and a measure of humanity about you. Hang in there.

[jas24zzk]

Back on topic................................ (probably against the wishes of some)

The way the AAT operates (done some reading independant of this place, as I was interested).

The politicians could pass a law similar. A person unfit..(to walk the streets)
When it looks unfavourable in court, the cops could then take you to the AAT, not prove the case and have you locked up....for life using Mr Quadrio's experience as benchmark.

Might be a positive way to clear the streets of kiddie touchers, rapist, and the unwashed.....probably half the people in here also.

No-one would be safe.

Imagine that huh.

[Wallsofchina]

Or maybe it was misuse of the AAT?

[blackhand]

Or maybe it was misuse of the AAT?
By John??? Not sure that taking CASA to the AAT is a misuse.

Cheers
BH
Not at Byron

[Wallsofchina]

Mistake may have been a better word.

AAT is usually for matters where the outcome is not as critical as losing your profession.

I wonder if there are still other avenues he can use to get a speedier solution?

[Andy_RR]

Perhaps any use is misuse? It should be left to go smelly at the back of the fridge.

[blackhand]

Mistake may have been a better word.
I see what you mean. Can the AAT be bypassed? or is it part of the process one has to go through prior to appeal to a higher court?

[Andy_RR]

The question is, should the AAT exist at all...?

Magna Carta - clause 39

No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land



In my opinion, the AAT only has jurisdiction if you consent to its jurisdiction. If you don't the only legal recourse available to the authorities is a court with a jury.

Of course, why let a bunch of time-honoured law get in the road of a legal prosecution...?

[Sarcs]

or is it part of the process one has to go through prior to appeal to a higher court?

That's ok if you have the money to go to the next level. The whole legal system is weighted towards the big end of town or the government authorities that are tax payer funded.:ugh:

Sure you can apply for legal aid and probably get it, but your level of legal representation drops off with what you can afford (or can't afford).:{

Maybe John could try the Commonwealth Ombudsman with letters of concern from members of the aviation industry i.e. 'all of us'!:ok:

[aroa]

Can it be bypassed? Was there another way open to J Quadrio to ask to have his licence reinstated after the DPP decided not to proceed.? Why does one have to ask the AAT?
A court order? or an application to a Fed. Magistrates court?

The AAT ... like so many things that get coughed up to do one thing, has morphed into something else. More like a kangaroo court or starchamber.. certainly not a proper court with rules of evidence, and decisions beyond reasonable doubt.
Justice (sic) must be done and seen to be done. That certainly hasnt occured in this event. Far from it.... a life sentence.! Its bullsh*t!

Quadrio wins the DPP battle but the AAT evens the score by letting CASA win the war. In a most disgraceful way.:\

WTF are this country's bureaucracies developing into??

"Public"service as a fascist state? Some serious changes are needed here.

[Wallsofchina]

The Commonwealth Ombudsman sounds a good start.
Which AAT - Qld?
What does the Ombudsman need to investigate?
What does the diagramme in AndyRR's #79 tell us?
Is 62 deg excessive?
Was that an appropriate angle for carrying tourists?
Was there another way to avoid the birds?
Does the video indicate that was the steepest angle?

I've seen a few people fail to excite Ombudsmen, who have a big workload, so can't spend the time conducting an FBI type forensic investigation.

On the other hand there are a lot of good brains on here, strategic, technical and legal, and if John agrees, could probably present a brief to the Ombudsman which would allow him to make a quick decision that a Department got out of line.

[blackhand]

Of course, why let a bunch of time-honoured law get in the road of a legal prosecution...?You have misunderstood the legal standing of Para 29 or 39 in some later Charta.
It is available in modern legislation only to the extent that the particular soveriegn state has allowed.

Numerous attempts have been made by litigants, many of them representing themselves, to argue that local legislation that conflicts with or which seems to override Magna Carta is invalid. This argument seems to be based on the premise that the fundamental constitutional character of Magna Carta operates as if it were a constitutionally entrenched provision to which all local enactments are obliged to conform.




Read more here
The Icon of Liberty: The Status and Role of Magna Carta in Australian and New Zealand Law - [2000] MULR 34; (2000) 24 Melbourne University Law Review 866 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MULR/2000/34.html#Heading55)

[tail wheel]

The AAT is a tribunal that reviews (and ratifies or reverses) Government administrative decisions.

The Ombudsman would have no power to interfere in, let alone reverse a decision by the AAT.

I suspect any review of an AAT decision could only be judicial, refer to the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act 1977?

[Wallsofchina]

I agree, and also the AAT is probably in another State.

However the Federal Ombudsman may have the power to investigate what could be an abuse of process by Department of Transport and Regional Services.

[jandsquadrio]

I have lost all faith in the legal system in Australia.
I have always conducted my flying in a safe and professional way.
I hope other pilots do not find themselves in my position.
I ask how you can judge a flight by a video and how come none of the CASA FOIs never went to the area where this incident happened.
The DPP did not go through with this incident because they had no evidence, the only reason that the CASA went to the DPP is because i appealed about having my license cancelled. I was stood down then the CASA tried to put a case together.
In my case GUILTY till proven INNOCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gobbledock]

The DPP did not go through with this incident because they had no evidence, the only reason that the CASA went to the DPP is because i appealed about having my license cancelled. I was stood down then the CASA tried to put a case together.
Here lies the real issue John. Regardless of the circumstances of the case - You embarressed some of the CASA ego's, hence them going after you. Any time you make a complaint or lodge an appeal that is based on or includes remarks pertaining to individuals that work for CASA they go after you mate. It is purely personal, 'safety' is the guise/cover they use, but ego is the issue.
You can liken it to going up against the ATO, another ego driven bullyboy organisation. Look at Hoges, he took them on, he has basically won, yet the ATO will not admit to being in the wrong, they will not apolgise and they will not compensate. So Hoges has spent say 7 years fighting them, flying to and from AUS, spent tonnes of money, stressed and inconvenienced only to have what happen? So either way he loses.

John, you have every right to have lost complete faith in the justice system as there isn't one, well not one for the average man anyway.

[tolakuma manki]

Afternoon John
Perhaps come to PNG and fly, you will like the country and pilots. PNG CASA is not so bad.

[Sarcs]

Have to agee with John in regards to the legal system! The legal system in Oz is seriously broken, unless you can afford the biggest and best QC you are stuck in the system.:{

You start off with the Magistrates Court or Federal Magistrates Court and unless you plead guilty straight up you get stuck going through mentions, committal hearings etc for at least a year.:ugh:

Then it starts all over again with mentions in the district court (or in John's case the AAT)...etc..etc until you get a court date. As a consequence the simplest cases (on paper) can drag on for years, so even if your innocent you become tempted to plead guilty just to have it over with.:sad:

Not to mention the huge financial burden you have been put under to prove your innocence! Like I said the "legal system is broken"!:mad:

That said I have to agree with Wallsofchina in regard to:
However the Federal Ombudsman may have the power to investigate what could be an abuse of process by Department of Transport and Regional Services.
....although I think you would be better going straight at CASA, being a government authority (i.e. CASA fall within the realms of the Commonwealth Ombudsman). A good brief could highlight the double standards of the regulator and the inconsistencies of their argument, which has been pointed out in the various posts in this thread.

[aroa]

Wallsofchina..No point in pointing the finger at the Dept of Transport and etc.

The abuse of process hasnt been done by them. They'll flick pass you right back to CASA, the perpetrator.
You might think that DoTR and Allbeentooeasee, the "minister", would be interested in having some direction and oversight of the roque authority... but you would be very wrong.

DoTR as far a this sort of issue goes is definitely a black hole, severely infected with administratium. Been there, done that and went nowhere.
CASA is a seperate planet and a law unto itself.

While the ombuds investigations can examine the whole disgusting episode, and agree with you that it is a disgusting episode, they can't order CASA to do anything: they can only recommend and CASA doesn't have to do sfa.
So that too, is a waste of time. Been there, done that as well.

Looks like only a court can order CASA to give the man his licence back, but thats a long and expensive ? route to follow.
And of course CASA, like a mangy rottweiller with a bone, will not give it up, and they have an unlimited taxpayer wallet to plunder for the fight.

Any legal minds out there that can advise on an efficient way to tackle this sort of problem.?

[rutan around]

To take a mans license and livelihood from him based on the word and video clip of a convicted criminal beggars belief. It must also be extremely hurtful and embarrassing for the decent moral employees of CASA when a small but very corrupt group can make the whole organization the subject of contempt and ridicule. eg I've heard that based on their firm belief that the camera doesn't lie they now have their sights set on a certain Doctor after viewing yet another film clip. Charges so far are Flying without a License, Carrying unrestrained Passengers, Unauthorized Landings, Dangerous Flying, and Unauthorized Deep Space Travel in a blue police box not registered as an aircraft. Careful study of the clip continues to determine whether any further offenses have been committed. There's plenty of footage - should keep them occupied for a while!

[Mainframe]

bit of thread drift here, the thrust of the original thread was essentially malicious and vindictive misconduct of the North Queensland Area Office.

Nothing new here, step back in time a few years, remember UZU Air, Cape York Airlines, Aero Tropics, Pacific Seaplanes, Midstate Airlines, etc.

Remember the reign of terror imposed by a little man with a moustache?

That particular misfit even bastardised three of his own FOI's,
one of whom was pushed over the top of his mental health limits and now remains a Comcare benefits recipient.

To appease the masses, Malleson Stephens Jaques QC / SC Skehill was commissioned, at a taxpayer cost of $84,000, to establish that there was no problem.

Regrettably, for CASA, a few months later it was found that the little man with the moustache had overstepped the mark.

He and some of his band of co conspirators were invited to seek opportunities outside of CASA, and left with Golden handshakes.

The Nuremburg defence was used by some of the guilty, "I was just following orders".

So the current crew of misfits did learn something from the past, simply,
misconduct is condoned at the highest levels and will never be punished.

If they do get caught out, no problems, golden parachutes are available.

Hence the situation perpetuates, as Quandrio found out.

Interesting that one of the cards from the Manual of Standards for Dirty Tricks was played,
i.e. CASA, to flex their muscles, invoke the "you must terminate bloggs and we will go easy on you".
This card has frequently been played in many regions.

And to cap it off, one of the ethics committee is none other than a person named and involved in the Polar Aviation bastardry.

Nothing will ever change until accountability and appropriate disciplinary or punitive action is introduced into CASA's Charter.

CASA, the Model Litigant proponent!

[blackhand]

@mainframe
With all due respect mate, a couple of those operators you mentioned were definitely part of Dodgy Brothers Airlines Incorporated

[aroa]

Rutan ... dont suppose you know where there are any second hand Daleks
available?. Even u/s ones would do. Could put em thru the workshop for a fix up before turning them loose to do the required job.
In the current environment, what they called out as they trundled about, is surely,sorely required.

Remember the quote from Napolean Bonaparte.?
"Never ascribe to malice, that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

I think he was very wrong. With certain CASA persons you can apply both.

Incompetence bred of laziness and ignorance. Malice as a natural trait of power crazy SOBs, who will stop at nothing, at great cost to the taxpayer and the victims, to demonstrate that (abuse of) power. :\

[Mainframe]

Blackhand

yes, one of the operators was a bit dodgy, I deliberately included one, fishing for comments.

I will not divulge which one, but have first hand knowledge aquired by direct observation.

Do you have first hand knowledge as well, or anectdotal / third party bar talk.

CASA have a penchant for pursuing allegations of an anectdotal nature or from disgruntled ex employees of an operator.

Agreed that where there is smoke there is probably fire,
but careful investigation should establish whether hard evidence is available to prosecute.

I have no time for dodgy operators and hope that they will be encouraged to become compliant.
If not, prosecute them, not play with them via the AAT.

Do you disagree that misconduct by certain FOI's and Team Leaders occurs from time to time?

I have met and co existed with both professional and ethical FOI's, and regrettably with some of the rogue element.

The never to be published Venn report substantiates the existance of CASA misconduct in Nth Qld.

With the re emerging of misconduct in Nth Qld it is a management problem that is not being adequately addressed by the area manager.

Bruce Byron, to his credit, and after being made aware of unpalable facts, cleaned up that office.

Maybe its time to shine a light back into that hole?

[rutan around]

AROA
I'd try 'Fort Fumble'. The indications are that there's a heap of Daleks there all in first class condition. Ask for the Aviation Extermination Department. I hear it's currently winding down as it has almost finished the job. Avoid the ugly bald-headed half robot guy with all the tubes hanging off him.

[blackhand]

@mainframe
Do you have first hand knowledge as well, or anectdotal / third party bar talk. Was on the island 1998/1999.
Recently spoke with a pilot flying RPT in Torress Strait, and he assures me the same style of operations are being carried out by "charter" operators on Horn Island.

At the time you refer to, the trawler boat man's company and the arabs company deserved to be shut down.

The FOIs in Cairns at that time were ordered to prevent the psuedo RPT operations from continuing. The investigation was driven by the local council, to get better services for the TS Islanders.
I found the Airworthiness blokes to be fair, the FOIs were indeed hard heads, but they needed to be.

Does the name Feral Cheryl ring any bells?

[aroa]

spoke today with heli-pilot of the most experience. You've all read the AAT transcript ??? so you'll know who I'm talking about. And you'll know how the AAT gave no credence to what he had to say...because of the north/south? hiccup on a reef diagram. He made that mistake initially.... but NOBODY else knew the difference until HE came back later and corrected it.!

CASA persons didnt know, so if you follow the AAT logic there's no credibility with them either! :\
But we know that.
Bias.... what bias.?

[jandsquadrio]

You are 100% correct AORA but he is not a credible witness, so say the AAT.
But a 550 hour FOI who can not read the difference between 21 inches manifold pressure and 26 inches is. Not to mention how can he be an expert witness.And that is just the beginning of the garbage that CASA went on with.
The AAT have a lot to answer for!!!!!!

[Wallsofchina]

John, a few people are trying to help you, you need to respond to them.

[Sarcs]

Torres is the man who know's how to beat the regulator at their own game, especially when it comes to dealing with the AAT! Drop him a line, I'm sure he'll give you some insight into the workings of the AAT (maybe mail him a case of xxxx gold for his services)!:ok:

[jandsquadrio]

I appreciate all the support i am getting, i have received emails with offers of support and guidance. I am following the leads up,i am also getting support from some politicians.

[Sarcs]

John has CASA indicated when you may expect to get your license back? Or have they indicated what you need to do i.e. retraining or resitting your commercial test?:confused:

I still can't believe that the CASA FOI wouldn't have approached your former employer with the video and then suggested a course of remedial training for yourself, coupled with a review flight monitored by the CASA FOI.:ugh:

Were they perhaps gunning for your employer, or is it a case of setting an example to all the other reef scenic operators?:=

Reading through the whole AAT transcript I still can't believe that they upheld the decision after all the dodgy witnesses etc..etc, just mind boggling!:sad:

[aroa]

Its a long row to hoe John, but its something that has to be done...for yr own sake and sanity. If you quit....those immoral bastards win.

If you dont pursue them now, in years to come you will regret not having tried.

How do I know.? I'm into year 5 of my endeavours, banging away at the
bureaucrazies, trying eventually to bring these lying, conspiring mongrels to account.

At long last, I'm closing on the end game, so 2012 should be an interesting year.

In the Oz "democracy" and "rule" (sic) of law, its a sorry state of affairs where people in a government "authority", allow this sort of thing to happen.
They are unelected scum, and we cant just vote them out of office. We just dont have that fine a level of democracy in Oz, unfortunately.
Removal can only be by the appropriate, legal means available.Unfortunately.

And when you do win , as you will: you will have done yourself and GA a favour. Hopefully when all the misfeasance is bought to light it will help drive another nail in casa's coffin.

Hang in there...!!!

[jandsquadrio]

Aroa I am a person of strong values and when someone has taken them away from me unlawfully I will stop at nothing to make those people accountable.
I am not only in this battle for myself but also for my fellow aviators.


I used to have a lot of respect for the CASA,but now that has gone.
I am here for as long as it takes.

[jandsquadrio]

Casa have said nothing. Only the AAT have commented.
It is a shame I cannot show people the transcripts from the AAT hearing. The things that came out of the 3 days would blow your mind. It really makes you wonder what qualifications you need have to be a FOI.

If only CASA was more like the Qld police who are very professional. Then we would have a justice system where people were innocent until proven guilty and the punishment would fit the crime.

[Jabawocky]

Go you good thing.

If you need more help let me know..... Seems we have mutual friends to help separate wheat from chaff.

[Sunfish]

What about taking up a collection and doing the experiment with an R44 and a Video Camera under controlled conditions? I'll donate.

[Jabawocky]

Yup:ok: I am in.

Better still, take a casa witness along to verify the truth.

[Sunfish]

What needs to be demonstrated is an identical series of maneuvers that replicate the images seen on the original video together with a time stamped video of what the instruments are showing

Heli pilots should comment, but I would have thought the starting point would be to demonstrate a sustained 2G turn at Sixty degrees and the picture through the front as it is flown...assuming that this is within the R44 performance envelope, IAW loading, POH and Company operation manuals.

From there, go to a wing over, if that is an approved maneuver IAW loading, POH and Company operations manual.

I would then assume, not being a lawyer, that if it can be conclusively demonstrated that the alleged "acrobatic flight" can be duplicated by any competent helicopter pilot in an R44 under identical loading conditions entirely within the approved flight envelope as required by the POH, company operations manual and any applicable CASA regulations, then Mr. Quadrio has a foundation on which to build some form of legal argument.

All we need now is a Pilot, Helicopter, suitable guinea pigs, er. test subjects, cameras and money. However this needs to be planned by someone with the helicopter technical and operational expertise, or such test may become another casualty of CASA and result in more persecution. A lawyer also needs to look at how you would ensure that such a test complies with evidentiary standards.

Whats an R44 cost per hour?

P.S. I think older and wiser heads might like to think this idea through. Can such a test help or hinder Mr. Quadrio, pprune, etc?? What would the next step be assuming the test was successful?

[Checkboard]

It would be cheaper (and more convincing) to match, frame by frame, the video with a computer generated 3-D model (which I could imagine could be done with just MS flight sim or equivalent). Once the movements of the camera, horizon & helicopter are matched, then you can zoom out in 3-D, freeze frame, examine the actual pitch & roll, watch the display from a fixed ground point etc etc.

[Jabawocky]

The best one to fly it would be John himself.....oh the licence issue:ugh:

I know of an R44 very close to JQ's abode too!

[Wallsofchina]

I think Sunfish is going in the right direction.
That should be matched by legal skills to ensure what is happening counts as valid evidence.
Then the plan, who is doing what, who is going to run it, what the cost will be, what the likely outcome will be.
We probably need to hear from the people with legal expertise first to see if this exercise would go anywhere.

Jabba, it might be hard to get CASA a guy up if he knows his job prospects are gone, but in any case there needs to an impeccable first hand witness.

Having got some sort of plan and cost sorted out, it would count a lot more if a lot of us contributed a share rather than a few. 100 is significant, 1000, particularly licensed pilots will attract good media attention.

[gobbledock]

Aagh yes good ol CASA. This case is an example of their take on 'just culture'.
There is a thing called 'leading by example'. CASA actions merely destroy any desire or will within industry to follow their example, uphold honesty and integrity or even report an issue where relevant.
When you have a regulator hell bent on bullying the industry and driving a pineapple through the industry's a#s for personal retaliatory reasons this is the system you end up with.
Metaphorically speaking the entire regulatory structure needs a tin of Avgas and a match set too it and we need to start again, the rot is too well entrenched, the cancer cannot be cured.

[thorn bird]

John there is a senator in SA who was a head honcho chopper guy for the RAAF, not sure of his name but I'm sure someone here will know.
Here's your unempeachable witness if you could get him to participate, for me, I'd happily contribute if it would lead to this injustice being overturned. Hopefully with a generous amount of compensation.

[Sarcs]

I still think the Commonwealth Ombudsman is worth a shot, especially as the CDPP dropped criminal proceedings. You could easily write a brief which could include PP's article coupled with several expert witness statements and a petition with all concerned fellow aviators signatures.:ok:

John should exhaust all options first and then once he has a license back hit CASA with a loss of earnings, reputation, employment etc..etc lawsuit.

[Frank Arouet]

Notwithstanding the fact that I personally have had favourable response to investigations started, I believe The Commonwealth Ombudsman has recently been compromised by investigators who rely on “expert” opinion from the “experts” who incidentally are CASA, (“the experts”).


Most of The Judiciary are also hoodwinked by “expert opinion”.


There are various bodies right now collating information on the CASA evil and are supported by many private, independent, experts with the ability to refute CASA expertise in court. They need ongoing support.


Until the CASA “expert” has been proven to be patholigically and habitually incompetent however, they will remain “the expert”- or until the poor bloody fare paying public feels his/ her life could be at risk.


The fact that it has taken so long to carry out a Regulatory Review is one such proof of incompetence supported by the corporate psychopaths and their dogsbodies litany of indictable offences rewarded with golden handshakes as a measure of last resort.

[Wallsofchina]

I think it goes without saying that CASA appears to have come up a little short on this one, so repeating their alleged deficiencies, colourful as these posts are, is preaching to the converted and not moving John's position forward.

[Sarcs]

So Wallsofchina have you got any suggestions to how John can move his position forward?

[Wallsofchina]

I did make some suggestions Sarcs, and we were going well but then lost our direction again.

[jandsquadrio]

Thankyou for all your overwhelming support guys it really has helped my healing process.

Reading your posts I see there is one issue that needs clarification. With regards to the turns we proved in court that they were not illegal steep turns (ie aerobatic) and we also brought up the fact that the low flying law specifically states it applies over terrain. The judge decided that in this instance terrain actually included water and I was unfit because he thought my suggested reason for turning in such a manner due to birds was risable (laughable) because he could not see any birds in the footage. But none of them ever bothered to go out to the reef to see how many birds there actually was in that area.

[Frank Arouet]

Until the CASA “expert” has been proven to be patholigically and habitually incompetent however, they will remain “the expert”-

The key to the answer is "INCOMPETENT".

Prove this is an habitual fact of life and you may see the simple answer to the problem. The public who outnumber us in the industry 1000/1 will then solve it for us.

JQ simply needs to keep his action alive.

[Sarcs]

John I don't think you'll have anyone disagree with you about the birdlife out on the reef structures, especially near the pontoons or old wrecks (Emily reef comes to mind!).

Wallsofchina, I'm sorry I missed your post #137! So in what court do you suggest JQ continue his fight to regain his license?

[aroa]

w.o.c. Casa havent just come up "a little short" in this example they are WELL short of any norms of due process that the citizen should expect from
a Commonwealth authority.
CASA has a "code of conduct" which is supposed to apply to its staff, but as we see, they just think its a load of old bollocks that doesnt apply to them.

Who's to give Compliance and Enforcement to the enforcers? Nobody. :{

If you read the CAC Act 1997, Commonwealth Authorities and Companies Act,
there are very serious penalty provisions for criminal behaviour.

I hope that Mr Quadrio can eventually kick their ar$e, with hobnail boots on when the time comes. :ok:

CASAs read on a "just culture" as I know it is ...
JUST fit this guy up, JUST do whatever it takes, 'coz we JUST dont care how much it might cost. JUST do it.

[jas24zzk]

....... because he thought my suggested reason for turning in such a manner due to birds was risable (laughable) because he could not see any birds in the footage.

Now this part of the transcript I found highly offensive.

The men in funny suits, declare that we must show them the utmost respect, and if we don't, then they toss us in the can for a bit.

But this same person sitting there demanding the utmost respect, can sit on his fat overpaid laurels and call a persons honest testimony Risable is a disgusting abuse of power. It tells me our 'learned' man on the bench finds it amusing. :eek:

He either agree's with a persons testimony, or he doesn't. His position is not there to rate its comedy level.

This muppet should be keel hauled! :E

[Biggles78]

The best one to fly it would be John himself.....oh the licence issue:ugh:
Instructor in the LHS pretending to be a QF F/O imposter would solve that issue.

If there is going to be a "fighting fund" then please post it in this thread coz I'm in.

[Sunfish]

With respect to the birds thing, it is pointless to argue. What we need is current video proof that the $#%ing birds exist on platforms, that they are a hazard to navigation, and that they must therefore be avoided or scared away.

That evidence needs to be of legal evidentiary quality. Anything else is just conjecture. A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Sarcs]

I know of one or two webcams in the area. What would be even better would be to place a webcam on the HLS at Hastings reef, get some footage of birds on the platform and a few arrivals of choppers etc.

[Wallsofchina]

Footage of birds isn't going to carry any weight.

Footage of birds there that day in the way AND requiring a bank angle of at least 62 degrees to scare them away, along with whatever extreme attitudes occurred may help, but if they would have been scared away by a cautious approach of say 10 knots, his justification falls away.

Same applies if prudent action by the operator in response to constant birds was a mustering horn.

Sunfish makes a good point about real evidence.

[Jamair]

With respect to the birds thing, it is pointless to argue. What we need is current video proof that the $#%ing birds exist on platforms, that they are a hazard to navigation, and that they must therefore be avoided or scared away.

That evidence needs to be of legal evidentiary quality. Anything else is just conjecture. A picture is worth a thousand words.

You mean a picture like this?

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p271/jamair_photos/0918081244-00.jpg

Hands up all those who would manoeuvre to avoid this lot?

[jandsquadrio]

You would have thought that the experts (CASA) would have went out to the area, but no they have the video that is all they need.
They cancelled my license before they conducted a thorough investigation.
WHY DID NONE OF THESE EXPERTS GO OUT TO THE AREA AND CONDUCT A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION.
GULLTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT.

[Wallsofchina]

The last two posts make me nervous. Have we been led up the garden path here.

[bankrunner]

The answer to that is easy: CASA knew exactly what they'd find there, and they knew this evidence would affect their case.

[Sarcs]

So Wallsofchina you are saying that the only 'real evidence' is the video footage taken on the day. Therefore that footage has to be analysed frame by frame, presumably by helo experts etc..etc and then draw conclusions about the illegalities of that flight?

The last two posts make me nervous. Have we been led up the garden path here.

I'm not sure what you mean? Other than banging on about the birds!

[Arrrj]

So John did a few steep turns getting his pax into the floating pad. Big deal. Sure, these turns are probably silly (someone might chuck), but dangerous - I really don't think so. Whether there were birds around or not is not (IMHO) worth discussing. (Although I do well understand why that topic is needed...).

No one complained, no one got hurt and John got fried (and fired) for being (at best) over enthusiastic.

You HAVE to be kidding. :ugh:

These are the same public servants that brought us pink batts, the NBN and other ridiculous ideas. := Don't you guys have something better to do ?

Some of the crap I have read here is ridiculous - does everyone here fly a helicopter or (perhaps) a desk ? Desk jockeys don't get a right to comment !

Fair dinkum.

Chin up John.

Arrrj

PS - I fly a helicopter - not a desk, and I will have to be careful not to make a turn that is too tight for the authorities in future ! :cool: (Of course I will now have to study all the crap from Canberra to find out what the max angle turn I am allowed to make !).

[Sunfish]

Talked to a very experienced former helicopter driver yesterday. Steep turns (2G) are most definitely OK.

[gobbledock]

Taking a CASA representative out to the reef would serve no purpose, neither does submitting birdlife/helicopter photos that aren't related directly to John's case because CASA would say that any later visit or follow up plus any photos supplied that is not directly related to the incident in question in John's case (i.e photo's taken today, next week or next June) does not accurately replicate the circumstances that actually took place in John's case. They would hang their hat on things such as different weather patterns, temperatures, food sources for the birds, cloud formation, jeez even the moon phase...........
John has been dealt a cruel hand, persecuted for rubbing somone's ego the wrong way. Its a disgrace.

[aroa]

the person JQ .."rubbed up the wrong way" was an ex AFP "person", right?
There's the answer.

The new to CASA guy that did my "investigation" was an ex NSW cop.
At least his move was a benefit for NSW citizens, but not to us, sadly.

Employing this personality type are all part of CASA's punitive approach to aviation "safety",... getcha and flogya.!

And the mind set of plods is that nobody can be doing anything.! without them thinking there is a criminal element in it. For them, brownie points for a 'knock -off' are the order of the day. :uhoh:

My !##@#!! was full of bluff and bullsh*t, and he's also got ideas WAY above
his station.
eg three of his reasons why a prosecution should proceed were..
1..Would not do an interview. Hullo? do I have a right to remain silent ?
2.. Showed no remorse.! Is this wacker a judge or something? HTF can you be remorseful about something that is a false accusation! And I never saw/met the bugger, so how would he know ? anything?
Nothing...JUST make it up.
3, Denied he did anything wrong. CASA: presumption of innocence does not apply here.
They know you are 'guilty' even before an "investigation" so denying it only makes it worse.
Oh dear!!! JUSTAR$E.. the CASA way :mad: :mad: :mad:

[jandsquadrio]

Any one who has been treated the same way as me with the CASA email me.
I want an enquiry into how the CASA can conduct themselves in this manner.
I am getting a lot of support within the industry from fellow aviators and engineers alike.
We need to be united and stand together,it is only a matter of time before they pick on you if not already.
i believe they have a much bigger agenda than just small pilots.
Even if i never fly again i will not quit until theCASA are accountable for the way they waste tax payers money.

[Kharon]

I agree - completely.

Where john’s story is sad and I have a great deal of sympathy for him, the real tragedy here is that John’s cautionary tale is only the tip of the iceberg.

Paul’s article serves to illuminate one easily understood AAT hearing. There have been many such travesties conducted over the last couple of years, much in the same style with the same result; a life, career and bank account decimated.

Solutions to John’s problem are thin on the ground and apart from lengthy, expensive court battles, which will end up back at the AAT there is nowhere else to go and no one to appeal to. Politicians mean well, but they are of little practical value, it’s too complex for the press to convey to the public and the industry seems incapable of getting behind even a simple issue like this and ‘sitting’ CASA on it’s well fed, tailored rump.

Almost everyone in GA has a CASA horror story, perhaps it’s time the industry fought back.

The skills, talent and horsepower required are available; I will start the ball rolling by volunteering my own.

I know, I know. Help I'm melting. :D

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Regulation bullying is where a serial bully forces their target to comply with rules, regulations, procedures or laws regardless of their appropriateness, applicability or necessity. Legal bullying - the bringing of a vexatious legal action to control and punish a person - is one of the nastiest forms of bullying.

Quote from What is bullying? Types of bullying, bullies tactics, how bullies select their victims, the difference between bullying and harassment (http://bullyonline.org/workbully/bully.htm)

[gobbledock]

Kharon, about bloody time you came back !!

[Sarcs]

hmhb after reading that article I've changed my mind, I think CASA are just reflecting the actions of the industry they are supposed to regulate!

Not sure about anyone else but a lot of that article reflected several past and present employers that I've worked for!

[Kharon]

JQ may well be as guilty as sin, he may well be as pure as the Lamb. Who knows, or, better still, who cares.

This is not the question, not by a bloody long shot.

I would be the first to support a properly orchestrated CASA investigation and with proof positive (beyond reasonable doubt) as an acknowledged expert in the industry, fully support a safety related action. Indeed, there almost should be no need for the clever workings of skilled lawyers to argue the 'technical' malpractice. Perhaps the sentencing, perhaps the severity of the punishment and certainly the mans rights. This guy, right or wrong got stitched by the system, not the crime.

As has been said; a weak, vacillating industry gets exactly what it deserves.

You have got the regulator and the regulation suite you deserve, the question remains; what ?, in all the hells, are you going to do to fix this bloody awful mess. Eh?.

What ?. Whine on Prune, arrgh spare me. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

Selah.

PS. Tks GDock, may the force be with you. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Glad you held the fort. :D

For the fans (and critics). Henry VI, scene ii, Blacheath.

CADE. I thank you, good people: there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers and worship me their lord.

DICK. The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.t

[Frank Arouet]

NEM Project 11 looks good mate.

[jandsquadrio]

I have had so many phone calls emails from fellow aviators engineers and many people that i have flown over the years including government jobs.
I am so amazed by the support i am getting,it makes me realise there is nice people out there.I am amazed by the stories that i am being told by people who have been in the same situation as me.
I am gathering information to give to higher authorities so we can have a good look at the controlling bodies.
Any one who feels they have a story can email me.
Cheers John Quadrio

[gobbledock]

John there are certainly many many cases out there that mimic what you have been put through. I wish I could say you are the first and the last, but sadly that is not possible.
Hopefully Messr Phelan has been in personal contact with you, and by now you would be aware of who in the political world will actually take interest in your plight, there would be less than a handful of genuine politicians in Australia that have the testicular fortitude to be interested in your case, but it is something. There are also what I would call 'justice seeking champions' out there like Shane Urqhart and family members of some of those killed in the seaview accident who silently and sometimes not so silently let it be known that the fish has been rotting from the head for decades.

And that is the ironic twist isn't it? Lives have been lost, both physically, and materially (as in Johns case) and it would seem not a nights sleep is lost by those accountable and entrusted with upholding safety within Australian aviation. Human lives and people's dignity and reputation should not be allowed to be destroyed for no better reason than a mob of limp dick gutless vermin not having the strength and character to admit to being wrong or making a mistake.

The power does lay with the people, there would have to be at least 30 000 people alone directly employed within Australian aviation, and only 650 Fort Fumble incompetents, it is time for the people to gather enmass and force a change.

[Kharon]

Been thinking and talking with 'grown ups' about the JQ case. I have tried to define why it deeply offends so many people, in so many ways.

For my money it's the 'manner' in which it was managed and prosecuted. This case should have been sorted out over a 'tea and biccies' chat between CP the FOI. If, (big if there) the FOI and CP believed there was a case to be answered perhaps it may have gone to the local manager; but it should have been sorted out long before an expensive 3 ring circus rolled into Dodge.

Since the current director has been in charge, managers are reaching for the RCA/ Show cause book when a mouse farts in hanger 13; are they on a quota or what?.

It's time the industry signed up on a single, short document. An industry wide call for the resignations of the people responsible for the management of the CASA. Not the clowns in the front office, they have to earn a living somewhere and good sheltered workshops, are hard to come by.

How about it ?. A simple petition signed by all would do the trick. Money where your hearts, minds and mouths are, or do 'they' have you by the balls.

Selah.

[Jabawocky]

I agree. One of your posts I can follow, less cryptic :ok:

As you have a way with words, draft away. If it is good enough there will be huge response.

Safety is a state of mind, not a book of regulations.

I think the modern world has lost sight of that.

[kimwestt]

I'm with you Jaba - Kharon old son, draft (not draught)away. The KISS principle will do fine, keeping in mind the last para from your second last post.
It seems that most have "talked the talk", now time to write the write.
I'll put me two bobs worth in, or out, as the case may need.
I'm told there are some bargain priced sheltered workshops coming up shortly,
uniforms supplied (including boots with loud,clicking heels), pens and paper, paper clips etc available.:mad::D

[aroa]

since they have to be formally preambled.? and correctly laid out or they go in the bin... how about those of legal mind set too, and make up the appropriate page/s that can be emailed to everybody in the GA industry, pilots, owners, engineers for signature.

Since we are all spread across the GAFA, the page/pages can be downloaded and signed by individuals or groups of, sent to a central location for collection, registering, collation, whatever and a full set sent off to....
the Governer-General
the Prime Minister
the Minister for Transport
the Senate... to be tabled
the House of Reps... to be tabled
and a precis detailing the demands of the Industry to every damned politician in the country, State and Federal.
At least then none can say "we didnt know what was going on"

And maybe delivered to Parliament House with a mass protest.

"WE the people of the Aviation Industry, having lost all faith in the regulator, due lack of governance, integrity or morality, and without practical sense or sanity in the regulatory laws, hereby demand.......etc, etc , whatever.

Kharon..? Anyone..? ps. Its very urgent.!

People out there more computer savvy will know a quicker way to get responses back.

Donations to where?

[Frank Arouet]

Be patient grasshopper, people are working on it.

I've found donations to be a lost cause if collecting for any action of any consequence against a regulator who is prepared to spend the last cent in the taxpayers purse to defend the indefensible.

If one were to use it to attack individuals cast out from under the CASA umberella, well that may be a different thing. It may teach some that once out, you are fair game. It may help moderate their actions whilst in uniform. "Following orders" was chucked out as a defence at Nuremburg in 1945-46.

[LeadSled]

John Q,
Senator David Fawcett of SA is a helicopter expert par excellence, drop him a short note, and a copy of Paul Phelan's article, then talk to him direct --- if you have not already done so.
He WILL understand all the technical issues, that CASA and the AAT did not!
Tootle pip!!

[jandsquadrio]

I am still coming to terms that the AAT did not stand up to the CASA.
I always thought Australia had a fair legal system.
I have always conducted myself in a safe and professional way as a pilot.
The extent that this incident has hurt my family is unreal.
All that i can say is i will fight the CASA all the way and i now realise it is not only me they have picked on.
The amount of support that i am receiving overwhelming.
Anyone else with similar stories please contact me so we can be united and stand up against the CASA.

[Kharon]

Data base ?????

Support for John can be offered on - No Confidence - Vote here. There seems to be a data base problem but, no doubt Pprune will sort it out.

[MACH082]

Guys,

Has anyone thought about putting a camera on an RC helicopter and doing steep turns and wing overs, then comparing the footage?

I'd be reluctant to do it in the real thing in case Casa came after me, but the laws of aerodynamics are still the same?

I'm sure there are plenty of fellas on here into RCs.

The results would be interesting as I suspect you will turn through 60 degrees in a wing over however it is not sustained.

As for the low flying, as per the CARs you are exempt from the 500ft minima when in the process of taking off and landing. Wasn't this helicopter attempting to land?

Cheers

[gobbledock]

Better still, you could break every rule in the book, make sure you are on your own with a mounted camera postioned in a way that doesn't reveal your actual identity or the identity specifics of your vehicle, then film your mischief, perhaps even topping it off with a 'brow-eye' at the end of the footage (make sure you don't have a recognizable ass!!).
Then post it to Fort Fumble and put it on the Tube. A bit like Brendan 'the postcard bandit' Abbott', taunt the nupty's. F:mad:k em.

It's not very mature, but neither is CASA.

[jandsquadrio]

They do not need any other evidence they have the video.
They were not interested in going to the area, but they were interested in believing the evidence of a criminal which they knew spent 1 year in jail on 100 charges. Even after the DPP dropped the charges CASA still tried and make evidence up.
The only rules for .......... is there is no rules they make up the rules as they go.They dug themselves a hole and tried to make up ..............

[Kharon]

Wiser heads suggest that a 'secret' ballot may be preferred by Pruners 'a feared of incoming Flak".

The numbers seem to confirm this. Want to support John, but not here??.

Use the PM system either to me or John. Just need the numbers, not the names.

It could be your turn tomorrow.

[thorn bird]

Guys and girls,
dont be complacent, this could be you tomorrow, if you feel as bad as I do about John's situation go to the no confidence vote...what have you got to lose??..except your industry!!

[Brian Abraham]

The Aviation Advertisers web site is down and Paul Phelans article there for not available. Conspiracy theorists have any clues? Any old cynic will do. :E

BTW, can any one tell me if torque turns are part of the syllabus of training for helo drivers to get a licence? For you plank drivers it's the equivalent of a stalled turn - sort of.

[gkpilot]

Hi John,contact Paul Phelan, he will give you the name of a good fighter against casa, & his string of lawyers, he had his licence pulled for flying a sea plane off a trailerdown runway,they did not do any investergations etc,, he has always beaton casa & now sueing for over 7 mil casa staff included ,some will lose their houses,,
He is just starting a class action also against, casa & staff & however are involved ,messing up other peoples lives

cheers

[bankrunner]

gkpilot,

Is there any public information about this case around at the moment?

It'd be excellent to see some real accountability hit the regulator, and for those responsible to be on the other side of the counter asking if I want a coke and fries with my Big Mac, where they belong.

[gkpilot]

yes last time he went to court was 29 oct 10 note that was day of hearing on medical,the sea plane was i think in june july 2004 and nov 2005, or maybe 2003 not 2004 but in WA ,AAT,,,it,s very intresting reading ,the ex casa now #2 should be ashamed of them selves ,not these fellows,from nazi germany I think

[004wercras]

As I mentioned back in post #68:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/467879-paul-phelan-s-latest-4.html#post6803009
If you compare the two mentioned flights there is no comparison.

John's flight manoeuvres are probably legitimate in the context of an approach to a bird ladened HLS.

Whereas the other flight was a training flight conducted in a transport category, non-aerobatic aircraft with full crew on board.

Both pilots were investigated by the regulator. The difference being JQ loses his license and the other bloke continues to operate with impugnity!:ugh:

That would be a "yes" for me in regards to the petition.

[aroa]

gkpilot.... methinks you have some things mixed up there..

The seaplane/trailer event was the (in?) famous Gerald R... the guy that WA CASA just loved to hate.!
3 cheers for him that has the balls to kick back.! :ok:

You are certainly correct about the National Socialist/Nazi/SS style of some of those CASA:mad::mad:persons.

They would have been right at home during Kristallnacht, smashing up people and businesses....as they do. :(

[insydney]

dont just sit there, add your signature to the 'no confidence petition' in the DG&P Reporting section... go here:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/469935-no-confidence-vote-here-2.html#post6834997'

[gkpilot]

every one needs to submit a complaint to every minster /as the now aviation minister & shadow minister ,do not want to know anything about aviation,, as it is to hard,to revamp CASA
I spoke to the top man J.Mc C about the good job 2 U.S pilos did, on landing a 737 at Jandakot ,on min weght & fuel,as the runway is only light ashpalt..He went made saying how he is trying to have their
lic pulled plus the engineers who put the aircraft back on U.S rego
as gov training school had seek permission on VH rego
the yanks laugh ,about Mr J McC well CASA is a laugh

[Kharon]

Aviation Advertiser is carrying a story on the petition, wonder how long it will be before Paul gets His letter, from 'them', the 5 o'clock Friday afternoon one, you know.

Anyone silly enough to bet a slab on the words "appolgy" and "defamation" being mixed in there along with a load of legalease pony pooh?.

[blackhand]

The seaplane/trailer event was the (in?) famous Gerald R... the guy that WA CASA just loved to hate.!
3 cheers for him that has the balls to kick back.!
Launching a seaplane off a trailer is not an indication of a safe operation.

[Sarcs]

Kharon have you recieved any feedback from Fort Fumble or Minister Fumblenese's office yet?

Reading Paul's article here:Industry group calls for Senate enquiry (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au/news/2011/11/industry-group-calls-for-senate-enquiry/) , I don't think he has too much to concern himself over in the defamation dept! Paul also provides a link to the petition, I wonder if it would be worthwhile approaching Ben Sandilands for a similar article with link provided?

[Jabawocky]

Kharon

If they do, it will add fuel to the fire. Paul is not exactly in his 30/40/50's any more and what do they think that would achieve? He has nothing to lose. Not a good target IMHO.

He has the pen on his side and we all know the mightier of pen and sword.

CASA need to understand all this built up frustration and anger in some cases is well founded and going to boil over at some point.

Myself personally? I have never had a problem with them, apart from one time where left hand had no idea about right, nor the requirements. When I know more about the rego process than hey do it is a funny day.

My biggest concern is the future of the industry. Seen a few folk being being done over, yet others who really need it get ignored.

I see Casa trying hard to make positive steps, the aging aircraft study for example, but honestly how many folk will welcome heir team into their hangar for some serious one on one fact finding? Very few. Why is that?

Why when word is around that RAA and or CASA folk will be attending an event a large number of folk run and hide. And not because they are cowboys, just that we all know, every time you fly some rule hidden somewhere is bound to be broken.

Yet on the other hand the Langley Park fly in right in the middle of Perth went really well, close work with CASA and during the event they relaxed and said effectively, you guys have this nailed, you don't need us watching over your shoulder.

There are glimmers of hope, but they need to market he selves better, and fix their product. To do that they need to quite the BS like prosecuting the JQ'S of this world perhaps go back and right some wrongs and show some good faith, be seen to be fixing their mistakes. Of course they will be afraid of law suites left right and centre if they do that ..... But they have to face up to the music for a change. An Amnesty is what they need to get out of that one.

Enough ranting, for now. Get behind fixing up our regulator folks:ok:

[Sarcs]

Good post Jaba! I like you have never had much issue with the CASA.

Although I was somewhat amused (or bemused) when getting ramped one day at Meeka. The FOI after going through all my paperwork, proceeded to quiz me on my printed SIGWX chart. When I asked what was his reasoning on the quiz, he told me that I'd be surprised how many people carry them around and don't know what they are supposed to depict, go figure!

Another instance I had dealing with the regulator was being interviewed (taped) in Meeka. The investigator questioned me about a flight I had conducted (some two years before) in the Straits with a certain Mr Mick Toller in the RH seat (Torres will remember that one!).

So besides the occasional ramping and a CP interview, all of which were quite amicable, I personally haven't had any real issues with the regulator.
However the same cannot be said about a lot of my colleagues, some of which have some horror stories to tell!

I also believe that the regulatory review and the morass of over complicated regs/rules is a major embarassment and needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

The double standards is also a huge bugbear of mine, JQ's case versus a certain SAR operator is a 'case in point'!

Related to that SAR operator is the 'politically correct' manoeuvrings to try to shelve a legitimate investigation, meanwhile a person in authority continues to thumb his nose at the regulator.

Meanwhile one of the most honest, true gentleman FOIs has had his audit (2010) of said company quashed as it is not 'politically correct'.:=

While these shennanigans are going on the good FOIs and AWIs are constantly hamstrung from doing their jobs properly.:ugh:

No, now is the time to stop the rot!:ok:

[aroa]

bh....whats yre problem?
Many straight float planes land on the grass at an airfield for maintenance and depart later on a truck or trailer assisted take-off.
Quite a common practice in the USA.

But over there, they dont see every aviation action as a threat to mankind!

What do you reckon would be the outcome for the pilot of a Super Cub, having been ripped up by a bear, and flown out of a remote area, all strapped up with duct tape. And land back in civilization for repair...in front of some CASA AWIs.!! (horrible thought):eek:

I dont think it would be congratulations all round for such a ballsy and clever way of salvaging his aircraft. His aeroplane, his "fix", his risk.
It would be down into the dungeon for him.
Commonsense and initiative have been regulated out of existence in this country.. for "safety' reasons.

And what is the indication of a 'safe' operation? All aviation endeavours have a risk. Life is a risk.
GR would have been aware of the risks, but sucesfully flew the mission.
Onya Gerald.!:ok:

[Kharon]

Here is the first entry again. The problem, from my study of public information, lies at the top, the FOI and AWI are hidebound to enforce compliance with every iota of a Reg, no matter if that Reg is "bad law". It's the KGB style of legal administration, supported at the top which is removing the 'Judgement" part of FOI and AWI task. This ethos is enhanced when 'known' bad apples are given powers which they would not ordinarily be given, under sensible direction from the top.

Peace cannot reign until the screaming stops.


I wonder if the “director” understands the effect of his words on the lower ranks he commands ?; the level of support he offers his 'troops' is admirable, laudable and infinitely sensible. I just wonder if he is aware of the travesties and injustices committed 'in his name'.

If he is not, then he should examine some of the cases with the same energy he would apply 'to the letter of the law' (even bad law) matters placed in front of him. If he is, then resignation, with apology is the only option available to him.

[gkpilot]

You certinly donot know anything about seaplanes , or maybe flying ??only a handfull of seaplanes in OZ ,,embarrising,, Alaska have 12,000 + planes 8,600 seaplanes over half without radio,s
86,000 + s/p in the states, Yanks do it well..

[blackhand]

Many straight float planes land on the grass at an airfield

Really:eek:
Is that after hovering:confused:

You certinly donot know anything about seaplanes

what is there to know, you have the sea, then you have a plane.

What do you reckon would be the outcome for the pilot of a Super Cub, having been ripped up by a bear, and flown out of a remote area, all strapped up with duct tape.
You shouldn't believe everything on the intywebs mate, that was a scam

[Frank Arouet]

Quiet a regular occurrence even here in Aust.

Float Plane Landing on Grass - YouTube

[aroa]

Kharon... from your paste.
Re: the Skull is very much aware of what is going on, but protecting the staff is the name of the game... whatever it takes.
Dismiss the finding of the ICC, have an external investigation instead.."fairer to the staff" (quote), change the target finding of criminality to breaches of the 'code of conduct', and upchuck an "Ethics and Conduct Commmittee",(sic... very sick) to oversee the result. :uhoh:
Excuse me while I convulse with laughter on the floor.!
And we are suposed to take all this as fair and appropriate, FFS ??? :mad:

I would say... reading from the CAC Act 1997...that all this would be a serious breach of the 'Foundations af Governance' and the responsiblities of a Director.
".Directors duties help ensure that bodies under the CAC Act 1997, use the resources in good faith,in the best interests of the relevant body, and for a proper pupose."
Yeah, well...just fancy words ????

So you are right..Peace cannot reign until the screaming stops.

gk. Nah.. dont know much about flying, only been at it since 1955, so I'm still learning, as in building a set of floats to go on the J2...so Ive got a lot to learn in that regard...flying floats.
Must be a hellava lot of trailer take-offs in Alaska & the US then.?
Might have to do one myself..!! Exciting! :ok:

[Frank Arouet]

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[T28D]

Black Hand so you get the full picture it is possible to land floats on a bitumen surface without problems all Edo floats have a skeg of solid sacrificial aluminium hat will allow this, it is not general practice but it can be done in situations where a landing is necessary and doesnt wreck either the floats or the attachment to the airframe.

Landing on wet grass is a snap and is SOP for Edo floats.

[blackhand]

@Frank and T28
Thats great stuff, hadn't thought of lighter aircraft and floats.
Have been involved with Otter and Beaver which are probably too heavy and fast to attempt it.
Cheers
BH

[Checkboard]

De Haviland Beaver floatplane landing on grass:

Graslandung Wasserflugzeug Grasslanding Seaplane - YouTube

Also:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k51/dcogger/Airlpanes/Otter2.jpg?t=1260480528

Our chief pilot landed this Otter with the wheels up on this runway, Bettles AK, We picked it up with fork lifts and put the gear down. No obvious damage to floats.... (http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=70&start=20)

No problem for the Twin Otter either - however you usually don't see it as amphibious floats are more common.

:rolleyes:

[T28D]

Black Hand both the Beaver and the Otter had EDO floats, weight is not a limiting issue.

[gkpilot]

Bankrunner,, Q on seaplane ,,,CASA @ AAT ,,, looked for awhile June -July
2003 ,,paper work go,s on & on intresting reading, makes CASA look like clowns :ok: :D:D

[Bashinabout]

I flew with John a few times back in his fixed wing days, and can honestly say he was a good pilot, sensible and took his flying very seriously. Really nice guy too.

Good luck John and Sophie, bummer decent people have to go through this..

:ugh:

[Frank Arouet]

As Bart Simpson would say, "I can't help but feel partly responsible for the thread drift".

Be that as it may the thread topic is important, so the floatplanes stuff should have been put under another thread like "Ripley's believe it or not", also worthy of importance if only for education.

May I suggest moderators, you move the drifted floatplanes stuff to a new truly "Australian" version of Ripley's to a thread called "Your'e fkucking joking" and leave Mr Phelans efforts to the serious debate it deserves.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Quick note to say Paul Phelan won an award in the Technical category at the Australia and New Zealand Aviation Press Club awards last Friday for his 'Birds? What Birds?' story. :ok:

[Kharon]

I reckon everyone who enjoyed (or didn't) Paul's article should send a 'well done o'gram' to him. It was good work and had a record "read" on AA, so the award was well deserved. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

A mate sent me a 'limerick' which made me smile, inspired apparently by the article. Not my own work, but I like it:

There was a young fellah named for Adam,
Who cried, argh stuff all these birds; I've had 'em.
They shat on me head, and then on me bed; and they'll do in me statue post mortem. :D. It is sort of topical.

[Kharon]

The crowd breathlessly awaits the unvieling of Adam's Statue.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg855/scaled.php?server=855&filename=pigeoins.jpg&res=medium

[Frank Arouet]

Well done Mr Phelan.

:)

[Jabawocky]

D&G ppruner of the year award :D

J:ok:

[Kharon]

The stats and an update for this and the petition are on the "Sticky" for those interested.

Thing is, what to do next ??. All sensible suggestions accepted here. Perhaps some of the more ''politically savvy" members could assist.

John's case and 3 similar are now being reviewed by "interested" parties, there is a slim (probably anorexic) hope, but it's better than staring into the abyss of perdition.

[Sarcs]

Not sure if anyone cared to read some of the comments in Paul's original article, some of them are very good! However I believe Maurie Baston's says it all really:

Maurie Baston November 4, 2011 8:13 am (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au/news/2011/10/5328/#comment-859)
Dear Mr. Phelan,
How can this be? I refer to your article regarding the prosecution of Mr Quadrio.
CASA is a Regulator and its role is clearly defined in the Act, Regulations, Orders etc, but there is a fundamental lie in the way Mr. Quadrio has been hounded. This has now resulted in the AAT’s upholding a decision, an administrative decision by CASA, the basis of which had been rejected by the public prosecutor.
How can any person or operator, without matching financial resources to CASA’s, ever seek protection from the abuses of power and privilege, or receive justice, against the methods employed by CASA as you have described in your article?
The procedures described in this case can only be described as draconian and applying administrative persecution of an individual until CASA’s agenda has been satisfied i.e. win at all costs, regardless of the safety result.
This win, I doubt would have provided little, if anything, in the way of an improvement in flight safety. Certainly it would have caused much heartache and financial loss for Mr.Quadrio. Here is another pilot forced from the industry due, in the main, to the procedures applied by several CASA persons.
In my time as Regional Manager in the previous, CAA, reporting to the then CEO, now renamed “Director”, we battled, sometimes successfully, at times unsuccessfully, several minor “Fiefdoms” that evolved during a restructure. I lament what I now see what CASA has become – one very large “Fiefdom” and one that seems to have unlimited legislative manpower resources and what can be perceived as an almost fanatical desire to use them.
Regardless of what the Director advises in his monthly newsletter, some of the staff identified in your article have become corporate bullies, seemingly protected and allowed by senior management to intimidate the industry with little regard for the real issues of flight safety. Tactics born from dictatorial attitudes, dogmatic agendas, innuendos and intimidation, not to mention threats to an employee’s employer, create nothing but contempt for the individuals. Furthermore, those attitudes tarnish those staff trying to operate professionally and in accordance with the published Government and CASA Charter.
Indeed, the good personnel in CASA all become typecast and stereotyped when the poor behaviour and processes you describe are placed in the public arena.
In respect of the CASA Charter, I wonder how many staff, managers especially, actually know of it and how it describes clearly the methods CASA staff are to conduct business? Here is the link for those who would like to acquaint, or reacquaint themselves with the document.
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_92927 (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_92927)
I wonder also how the industry feels about the value of the monthly advisories of Director Mr McCormick, compared to the actions of some staff and the Charter? It would surprise me if many did not reach a conclusion where one or both documents were classified as meaningless Spin.
I would hope that not to be the case.
In my own CASA executive life I sought to achieve clear objectives, the first being to seek out the “cowboys”. The good operators actually needed little regulation – only communication and some education as to both organisation’s responsibilities. There are still policies mandated by CASA either as Regulations, Orders and/or Policies that are counter-productive to safety.
Power can be a seductive influence; but with power there must also be responsibility, accountability, reasonableness and a focus on real aviation issues. It should not be used as a cloak for a near paranoid legislative determination in the false name of safety.
Yours sincerely,
Maurie Baston

[Kharon]

Good man, good administrator and a bloody good post.

But tell me, who got the pigeons gag ?. Seriously??. It's very good. :D :D

[Frank Arouet]

I believe the original was for some Canberra pilick but probably now for any smart aleck in the same arena of combat. Could be wrong but adam probably came from the same town in middle Europe or thereabouts.

[Jabawocky]

I did.....one of your easier gags to get ;)

[Sarcs]

I did too! Here's a story that'll give you a laugh :cool::


When you occasionally have a really bad day, and you just need to take it out on someone, don't take it out on someone you know, take it out on someone you don't know.

I was sitting at my desk when I remembered a phone call I'd forgotten to make. I found the number and dialed it. A man answered, saying "Hello."

I politely said, "This is Chris. Could I please speak with Robyn Carter?"

Suddenly a manic voice yelled out in my ear "Get the right f***ing number!" and the phone was slammed down on me. I couldn't believe that anyone could be so rude. When I tracked down Robyn's correct number to call her, I found that I had accidentally transposed the last two digits.

After hanging up with her, I decided to call the 'wrong' number again.

When the same guy answered the phone, I yelled "You're an asshole!" and hung up. I wrote his number down with the word 'asshole' next to it, and put it in my desk drawer. Every couple of weeks, when I was paying bills or had a really bad day, I'd call him up and yell, "You're an asshole!" It always cheered me up.

When Caller ID was introduced, I thought my therapeutic 'asshole' calling would have to stop. So, I called his number and said, "Hi, this is John Smith from the telephone company. I'm calling to see if you're familiar
with our Caller ID Program?"

He yelled "NO!" and slammed down the phone. I quickly called him back and said, "That's because you're an asshole!" and hung up.

One day I was at the store, getting ready to pull into a parking spot. Some guy in a black BMW cut me off and pulled into the spot I had patiently waited for. I hit the horn and yelled that I'd been waiting for that spot, but the idiot ignored me I noticed a "For Sale" sign in his back window, so I wrote down his number.

A couple of days later, right after calling the first asshole (I had his number on speed dial,) I thought that I'd better call the BMW asshole, too.

I said, "Is this the man with the black BMW for sale?"

He said, "Yes, it is."

I asked, "Can you tell me where I can see it?"

He said, "Yes, I live at 34 Oaktree Blvd, in Fairfax . It's a yellow rambler, and the car's parked right out in front."

I asked, "What's your name?"
He said, "My name is Don Hansen,"

I asked, "When's a good time to catch you, Don?"

He said, "I'm home every evening after five."
I said, "Listen, Don, can I tell you something?"
He said, "Yes?"

I said, "Don,you're an asshole!"

Then I hung up, and added his number to my speed dial, too. Now, when I had a problem, I had two assholes to call.

Then I came up with an idea. I called asshole #1. He said, "Hello."

I said, "You're an asshole!" (But I didn't hang up.)
He asked, "Are you still there?"

I said, "Yeah,"

He screamed, "Stop calling me,"

I said, "Make me,"

He asked, "Who are you?"

I said, "My name is Don Hansen."

He said, "Yeah? Where do you live?"

I said, "Asshole, I live at 34 Oaktree Blvd, in Fairfax, a yellow rambler, I have a black Beamer parked in front."

He said, "I'm coming over right now, Don. And you had better start saying your prayers."

I said, "Yeah, like I'm really scared, asshole," and hung up.

Then I called Asshole #2.

He said, "Hello?"

I said, "Hello, asshole"

He yelled, "If I ever find out who you are..."

I said, "You'll what?"
He exclaimed, "I'll kick your ass,"

I answered, "Well, asshole, here's your chance. I'm coming over right now." Then I hung up and immediately called the police, saying that I lived at 34 Oaktree Blvd, in Fairfax, and that I was on my way over there to kill my gay lover.

Then I called Channel 9 News about the gang war going down in Oaktree Blvd. in Fairfax .

I quickly got into my car and headed over to Fairfax. I got there just in time to watch two assholes beating the crap out of each other in front of six cop cars, an overhead news helicopter and surrounded by a news crew.

NOW I feel much better.

Anger management really does work.
:ok:

[Cactusjack]

Sarcs, that is absolute gold! Funniest example of a sociopath at work that I have read in quite a while.

[jandsquadrio]

Thy to the person who sent me the picture of the F4uCorsair my favourite plane

[Kharon]

JQ - any thing worthwhile reporting, update would be nice for the guys and guyettes.

[Socket]

Sarcs, that was about the best post I have seen in ages. Absolute crack up. Back to the thread though, where is Phelans report on the results of Polars latest court appearance? Is it possible he will only write negative articles about CASA? Is it possible he, as a supposed journalist, has a bias and writes to that bias? Is there no story in CASA being vindicated?

[Frank Arouet]

There is a lot of difference between researching an article and obsfucating a CASA case history. Something a twice recipient of a literary award would be well aware of and not prone to answering posts such as your's.

supposed journalist

Indeed! And your literary achievements are?

The CASA vindication..... lets hear about that one.

[Socket]

So Frank I guess the answer is, awards excuse everrything, including following up and reporting on a news item the protagonist has spent considerable time telling us all about.

[Socket]

Frank, my literary achievements are few. I can string a few words together and hope that others can make sense of them. That is about it. I have never claimed otherwise. So now tell me why you are all of a sudden the judge of literary excellance. One would think that your ability to spring up in ANY thread with rant after rant against Casa you would eventually come up with a logical and well considered argument, guess not. You are just another guy who believes the regs are for everyone else, cause " i just do my own thing, why should they bother me".

[Arnold E]

Is there no story in CASA being vindicated?

Lets hear the facts then.

[jandsquadrio]

I have asked casa under the foi act for my entire case,I bet I do not get all of it.because then we will see the truth and extent that they went to.

[Kharon]

Sock (pup) et. I believe Phelan would be the happiest man in the world, if once, just one time the CASA would give him something positive to write about. No awards then, just brass bands, flags, dancing girls, free beer in the streets and an industry party that would last for days.

Just ONE TIME, what a change that would be.

You are just another guy who believes the regs are for everyone else, cause " i just do my own thing, why should they bother me". Sounds very much like a FOI work order description to me, the old "I interpret the regs in my own way, sure as hell they don't apply to me. I am a fully supported, expert CASA "skygod". http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif := http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

[tolakuma manki]

The Charon has left the shore of Akheron
And now seeks shades in the upper world.
Hermes will not be pleased.
Beware ye all and not be misled by this hideous daimon.
Beware ye without the obolos coin, to wander as lost souls you remain.

[rutan around]

SOCKET-Mrs RA reckons my tool kit should contain only 2 items. Duct tape & WD40. If it moves and shouldn't-- use duct tape. If it doesn't move and should then use WD40.
Why Frank and others have such a pathological hatred for certain CASA people (mainly members of the Cathy Pacific club) is that they applied their considerable powers in reverse to the tool kit story. Cathay Pacific er sorry CASA chose to draw up the wagons to protect their "little mates" rather than right grievous wrongs. If you're so keen about transparency perhaps you can use your influence to persuade CASA to publish the contents of the non disclosure clauses and settlement terms in cases like Franks.

[Frank Arouet]

This could get interesting;

Perhaps he and his other three recently registered PPRune mates can also come up with my confiscated and then destroyed evidence which would have put paid to the Cathay Club. If would certainly vindicate CASA in Senate Estimates. It would similarly give credibility to the CASA crony's who are still signing out maintenance releases which were usually done by mail.

Think about it before you reply, I have all the paperwork here from Ministerial level down. Do you really want me to open that box?

[aroa]

hey, socket while you're at Fort Fumble gathering all the material for the above posts, ask CASA how much taxpayers dosh they have pissed away in playing charades to protect the (perjuring, conspiring) staff.?

Also, while yre at it, see if you can find out how much the Tvl SAWI got paid to be let out the front door, with NO investigations into the VERY serious allegations that I had noted.

Inconsistency is their hallmark. I look at my aeroplane and they want to put me in jail. This CASA guy did some things in association with others, (it is alleged) and really should be in jail.!!

But there you go. Corruption and cronyism with gay abandon! :mad::mad:

Now that he is no longer under the CASA umbrella/taxpayer funded, maybe I will have some of that exit fee.:ok:

[Sandy Reith]

Sarcs, you say that Maurie Baston, ex CASA emplyee, said it all.

Without a doubt he did go right to the nub of the disastrous state of affairs when a man's livelihood can be smashed without a proper recourse to law. Let alone the dreadful malaise that has overtaken GA.

With apologies to Maurie he hit the nail right on the head when he said that they used to try and get the "cowboys" and leave the others alone.

Thia attitude, the CASA MO now of many years, to "get the cowboys" is a complete anathema to the rule of law and the good governance of a civilised nation. Unfortunately this attitude is even given some credence within the industry, often by those who's skills are still in formation. It is so easy to sling off about someone you hardly know, "oh, that cowboy, he doesn't know how to fly safely like me", or some such ego driven remark.

The duty of those who are charged with maintaining compliance with the law is to apprehend those in breach of those laws and have them dealt with in law. It is not, repeat not, their role to seek out those who are in their opinion "cowboys". Because CASA has been let loose with almost zero supervision or accountability they have taken on themselves not to worry about the law but simply to"get" the cowboys.

In other words, rule by personalities instead of rule by laws. Rule by law is a precious commodity and we should all stand up for it.

Its just too bad that FOI's or the hierarchy have little or no understanding or proper training in legal theory, methods of policing and patently have no idea about the efficacy of their methods. It really has become very bad when commercial pilots will not go to airshows because they are liable to be hounded by the zealous "let's find a cowboy" posse of CASA inspectors. Reading the thread there are examples of this. I have heard first hand the same sad circumstances.

In regards to John and Sophie Quadrio, they are the victims of the "get a cowboy" mentality. John and Sophie should be supported to the hilt. I hear that we should get publicity but not go into technicalities. I believe we should get publicity anywhere we can, but I also believe that John's case would make a great TV one hour special. His case has all the ingredients, The little bloke doing his job gets clobbered, on the video evidence of a jail-bird, by the bullying so called experts who are only expert at keeping their noses in the public trough. Nine of them sitting smugly at the AAT hearing? Then along comes Paul Phelan's expose and finding "The Birds" ...Wot birds?? Er.. Um... as well as Paul's "angle" models, are in keeping with CSI, Poirot or Inspector Morse. And now the aftermath, with so many stories of wrongdoing by the out-of-control CASA, all the court cases, dismissals, reappearances as consultants, and the whole sorry saga of an industry in decline and distress to Australia's detriment.

And finally, here's a thought for grand final year 2021 at the MCG.

(Headline) FOOTY FANS SWAMPED BY POLICE
The MCG today; 3000 police checked all vehicles arriving at the MCG and found drivers without properly updated maps, many without logbooks, service dates overdue, vehicles with under-inflated tyres, overloaded, loose articles and some with Suspicious Attitudes. Police advised that these latter types, referred to as "cowboys", were dealt with summarily to save wasting time in court because they certainly were guilty of something.

The Premier was unavailable for comment but reliable sources close to government said that it was regrettable there may have been a few that were shot without due process but it is for the safety of the majority and the law must be upheld.

[Frank Arouet]

Wren old mate;

Yes, it is less than subtle that "rule BY law" and "RULE OF LAW".

When the government of the day allows the RULE OF LAW to be so abused they have serious questions to answer. However don't hold your breath with this current lot, (or for that matter, the Opposition Transport guy who is more trussed up with party politics to bother with such frivolous stupidity).

The Australian Constitution guarantees free trade between the states, however Reg 206 probably is also unconstitutional if you can't take your toolbox with you, as is the concept of The Rule of Law.

God help us all.

[rutan around]

Frank: It would appear CASA is very careless with evidence. Including your case I know of 4 where evidence detrimental to CASA's case has gone missing. I wonder if they've ever lost any which would assist their case. Does anyone reading this know of any instance where CASA have lost evidence which was going to help them? I strongly suspect they are selectively careless.
I wonder what interesting information is contained in "lost" files relating to the Mobil fuel contamination case. How many years had CASA ignored aircraft engine failures (blaming pilot error)when they knew there were fuel problems with Mobil. When did they first become aware of the problem in the US with Mobil which preceded the huge contamination debacle in Australia. All these questions and more while Minister Albanese and the rest of government sleeps.Perhaps this losing evidence is why CASA got into the business of manufacturing replacements.

[Sarcs]

Including your case I know of 4 where evidence detrimental to CASA's case has gone missing

I wonder if a Wikileaks style of probe maybe able to find these so called 'missing files'....just a thought!

[rutan around]

Yes a Wikileaks type probe might work. What would definitely start the ball rolling would be a smoking hole in CB half full of Pollies on their way to work. Unfortunately given the nature of the fickle finger of fate it would be an airliner full of P-Pruners going to a protest rally and CASA would receive a performance bonus.

[Sandy Reith]

Frank, I've been trying for years to get some political interest going for GA. Led a deputation to the then Minister Truss in 2006, he was not interested enough even to listen.

Three days before the last election I looked on the Lib/Coalition website for a GA policy position. None, not one word. Collectively and individually we have to engage our MPs.

[Frank Arouet]

Or encourage them to develop a GA policy.

The industry is clearly in decline. CASA are just one obstacle to overcome. There are many other things that need addressing to make it right. With the right approach these could be used by any politician to further his/her career as positive contributions. CASA as noted are a negative and nobody wants to have this scalp on their resume.

I would push this to the extent of pragmatism or whatever you call dealing with Greens and Independents who have nothing left to loose.

That threat alone may help them develop a policy.

[Up-into-the-air]

Fuel Debacle and Reports to CASA

I only became interested in fuel issues, when I had a stopped engine due to fuel filter blockages, on and off for about 18 months prior to the Xmas announcement. The announcement caused me and a lot of others whose aircraft usage for private purposes peaks across the Xmas period.

I had contacted CASA about the matter during the previous period and after the announcement.

I am still waiting for the reply.

Mobil still have not replied either, although I had their cohorts in my office denying any complicity in the matter at all.

I was able to trace the fuel problems to a brown "stuff", bacteria and water. The solution of killing the "bugs" with an appropriate additive worked with the assistance of a fuel specialist engineer, who had never seen this type of issue before in AVGAS, but had seen it in AVTUR.

The fuel all came from a bowser, which Mobil claimed had never had any of their "batch-related" fuel in it.

It is interesting to now bump into people who had issues prior to the "grounding" of bad fuel, brown stuff, blocked filters, stopped engines.

I reported the problem and solution to CASA with the usual nil-response.

A cover up??, malfeasance???, just incompetence?? - whatever it was, the regulator still has a lot of answers to give.

How can we be sure that reported incidents, prior to the event are properly followed up, without the reporter being ignored or in some cases, actively acted against.

The SDR system for example is not bullet proof, which, when properly acted upon, gives good industry warning and the issuance of AD's and AWB's, much less a report that may well warn people of a problem that may have seen, but not related as a wider problem, or thought to meet CASA's SDR system.

There is a recent case where a SDR report, has been wrongly indicated as "maintenance" by CASA, rather than get to the real underlying cause.

[jandsquadrio]

Sophie and I would like to thank everyone for your support. We are touched by the number of emails, phone calls and letters we have received.

I recently received an email from one of my first instructors saying she was horrified by the allegations against me because I always showed professionalism and good airmanship and always took my flying seriously.

I am saddened to learn just how many other aviators have lost their jobs and businesses at the hand of an unfair and unjust regulator. They have to be stopped. It's time for a change. We need a fair and professional regulator.

[gobbledock]

up-into-the-air, the fools would not know how to fix or address the issue. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians. The chiefs are washed up has-beens, dinosaurs. They wouldnt consider your issue as relevant, mainly because they are pilot background management (term used loosely) and they are still living in the eighties and believe pilot focus is the only risk in aviation (wakey wakey boys). The rest are either legal gimps who don't know squat about aviation, safety and risk, plus a handful are RAAF imports (yeah, Defence and Commercial operations are the same aren't they ????)

When the Skull was appointed their was a huge brawl in Spamberra. Some poitical knobs were sick of ex pilots running the place and wanted someone more bureaucratic, Carmody came within a whisper of the top job. It was agreed that if Mr Skull failed and was ever to receive the pineapple then the next Director position would be held by a bureaucrat, hence the appointment of the Associate Director. The Assistant Director was not thrilled about this, but the reality is that between the three of them and a Board things have declined even further.
Australian aviation is in a pickle, the regulator is a poorly managed complete debacle that is out of control.

Australia's aviation industry, the travelling public and the taxpayer deserve better. This whole sloppy mess needs to be bulldozed. None of the bureaucratic name changing folly that they often pull out of the bag of tricks to deflect attention and feign change. The CASA requires a new structure, new experienced senior management, removal of the Board, accountability by the Minsister, a complete overhaul with accountability by CASA management for it's actions, training and upskilling of Inspectors, workable and relaistic risk reducing regulations, focus on ALL aspects of aviation - not just on the gents sitting up the pointy end of the aircraft, actual data base systems that work, removal of mates rates, industry involvement in voting on executive management, teaching staff people skills, accountabilty for every cent spent on projects, manpower and systems.

This is just the start of what is needed. Do we have a Senator interested in getting the ball rolling??
The clock has been ticking for some time now, if I were in government I would want to cure the disease now before a certain death occurs, government needs to start listening to those in the actual know, those out there who are seeing, breathing, smelling and tasting the impending lingeringstench of death in the air by way of an inevitable aviation disaster.
Tick tock tick tock

[aroa]

Tarmac t*rds rule OK.!

Just had word that some hapless aviator at Roma got a $200 on the spot fine
for not having his medical paper with his licence. Medical was valid.
Also a threat of another bust because no visible ELT. Was in the seat pocket.

As you can see this is heavy duty "safety" stuff to keep the world safe from falling aeroplanes.
IMO its counterproductive- the pissed off and stressed out pilot is distracted from the task at hand when he departs.

Yet another example of the "safety" mujahadeen swinging out of the wrong tree.

Its madness, its wrong..
And it has to STOP.!!!

[Frank Arouet]

Start a new thread that names and shames the FOI for all to see.

Just the facts Friday, just the unembellished facts!:cool:

[gobbledock]

Tarmac t*rds rule OK.!
Just had word that some hapless aviator at Roma got a $200 on the spot finefor not having his medical paper with his licence. Medical was valid.
Also a threat of another bust because no visible ELT. Was in the seat pocket.
As you can see this is heavy duty "safety" stuff to keep the world safe from falling aeroplanes.
IMO its counterproductive- the pissed off and stressed out pilot is distracted from the task at hand when he departs. Hilarious. Taxpayer money hard at work! Meanwhile the 'fare paying public' (meant to be the main focus of CASA's core activities??) which are numbering into their thousands travelling on a daily basis are left to the devices of larger operators who are being publicly named and shamed on an almost weekly basis for acting in a non safe manner are not getting a gournsey due to CASA resources (no doubt some crusty old GA FOI has-been who is counting the days til retirement and a nice fat super payout) pounding the red soil of Roma!!
A continuing example of stupidity and lack of risk ranking by the regulator.
My god will Senator X hurry up and push forward to give this department it's long over due colon cleansing, please!

Start a new thread that names and shames the FOI for all to see.
It was probably Noah or Moses, some dinosaur long in years.

[Kharon]

Hold up, have I missed a vital point or a change to Regs (easy done), but it seems to me, at face value that:-

Extract from a generic COM.
CASA Aircrew.
a) Operating aircrew will, as a SOP, carry Licence and Medical certificate and present these documents on request by authorised persons without delay, in any case no later than seven (7) days from the request. CAR 5.56 (1998).

N.B. Aircrew are advised that when logbook, licence or document presentation is requested, it is better not to leave the document (s) in CASA possession. Crew will request that the document (s) be made into a certified copy and retain the actual document in their possession. There are far too many instances of "lost" document events on public record. Consult the Chief Pilot prior to surrendering any logbook information.

Off the net, this AM.:-
5.56 Production of licence etc
(1) CASA may request the holder of a flight crew licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation to produce to CASA any or all of the following:
(a) his or her licence or certificate;
(b) his or her personal log book;
(c) his or her medical certificate;
for inspection by CASA.
(2)If CASA requests the holder of a flight crew licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation to produce a document under sub regulation (1), the holder must:
(a) produce the document without delay; or
(b) if the holder does not have immediate access to the document at the time the request is made — produce the document at the place specified by CASA not more than 7 days after the day of the request.
Perhaps not the full story told, http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif
Perhaps I'm out of date, anyone advise on LAW, not policy. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Sarcs]

Unfortunately Kharon (as is the way in this country) CASA are now going to be pre-occupied with this: http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/471706-jetstar-cadet-scheme-failing-produce-safe-pilots.html :ugh:

Or that could mean they leave the rest of us alone for a little while!:E

[aroa]

Hunting up the source/victim. Will report asap.

[gobbledock]

Unfortunately Kharon (as is the way in this country) CASA are now going to be pre-occupied with this You reckon?? Isn't JQ part of the QF Group??? Correct. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving, must be some naughty pilot out there in GA with his shirt untucked or perhaps flying a 172 with a slightly worn nose wheel. Much more important.

[Sarcs]

Too true, gobbledock, too true! I suppose they have to get their end of year quota up to justify their midyear bonus!:ok:

It's a bit like the pollies getting a 30% payrise in a supposedly vain attempt to get better quality candidates! Pity the drongoes that are currently there still get the payrise!

[aroa]

Remember that you dont have to hand over anything that may be detrimental to yourself.
ie.. yr log book ...because ten pages back you havent completely filled in all the lines.
You are NOT obliged to incriminate yourself.

As far as I am away, it has happened in court that a CASA demand under 5:56
has fallen over on that basis.

Its a bit like yr right to remain silent. But of course our esteemed regulator just sees that as a black mark against you. :eek:

Yet another reason for prosecution..."Failed to avail himself to an interview"

When you know their case has no merit/is false but "Some people in Canberra think they can make this stick"... why would you want to talk with the fcukers!
So they can rewrite it so their words become your words. As they do /did

So....be careful

[jandsquadrio]

All i want for christmas is my life back and a job.

[jandsquadrio]

CASA do not think I am a fit and proper person to hold a commercial pilots license. Ironically Motorcycling Queensland think that I am such a fit and proper person they have awarded me Queensland Official of the Year because of my safety conscious approach towards Motorcycling. :D