AIPA President Drops the ball on Lateline 31/10/2011

[MonsterC01]

No disrespect to Captain Jackson, as he strikes me as a dedicated leader of the AIPA. I must say though, that after watching his performance tonight on Lateline (31/10/2011), I have to wonder if he's the person best suited to be publicly speaking on behalf of the AIPA.

While I'm sure he discharges the duties and responsibilities of his role as president of AIPA with all the integrity, intellect and diplomacy this post requires, one can only conclude that his presence on Lateline tonight was a lost opportunity for the pilot group to get their points of view across to the viewing audience.

He was clearly nervous, and that is understandable given the magnitude of the situation. However he lacked any clearly articulated answers to the questions put to him, and at times it seemed even the simplest of responses were vague, disjointed and fumbled through. There was no polish or sense of authority in his delivery.

The questions put to him were dollies, loaded with opportunities to articulate and expand on the pilots' positions on key issues, events and concerns. It was almost as if the presenter was deliberately feeding Captain Jackson the questions the pilots have been longing for the media to ask for all these past frustrating months. In short it was a chance to put the heat back on the company and apply the blow torch.

I'm sorry to say that by the end of the interview he looked like a man who had been searching for the truth and who wasn't comfortable with his answers. AIPA can't hold a press conference ever five minutes and expect the media to turn up. Qantas management can - and will! In the next few weeks they're going to take every opportunity afforded them to hammer home their position. Again and again and again.

This was one of the few opportunities you get to put across your position; where you're the only ones getting air time. No management shouting you down, or other unions fighting to get their members concerns heard over yours.

I'm not a huge fan of the TWU's man. He strikes me as the kind of person who has only enough RAM in his head to remember four sentences at a time. But by the time the interview is over you've heard those same four sentences repeated forty times. You know his position in no uncertain terms. By the end of Captain Jackson's interview tonight all you 'kind of knew' was that it's 'kind of not about the money', and 'kind of about engagement'............'kind of'. With lots of ums and ahs thrown in.

There's twenty days . . .. and counting . . .. unless the conciliation period is extended. There's only a small window of opportunity to change popular opinion. You can tell after Joyce's stuff up grounding the fleet there's a change in the prevailing wind, and a definite chance to win the masses over to our side. While I'm not a Qantas pilot, I do feel like we're all in this together. Every kick needs to be a goal though.

So my question is this - given that this is the end game and there is so much at stake - do you not feel that it would be prudent to dip into the war chest and employ some PR professionals? At the very least they would be able to create talking points and structure some pre-packaged answers and fall back points. This would then ensure that those who talk on behalf of the union membership stand the best chance of impressing the media, the public, (and maybe even the bosses), as to their professionalism, their coherence and their credibility.

There can be little doubt that the aviation industry in Australia continues to need a strong Qantas. Looking to the role of the pilots will play in contributing to this long term objective , I believe the union must be successful in securing Australian jobs for Australian pilots now. If not, they will be too weak in the future to stop management imposing their will on what will be left of the Qantas work force.

In short AIPA - it's time to bring out your A game!

The Monster!:ok:

[Me Myself]

Securing jobs at 530 000 AUD a year for a 380 Captain..............you have to be kidding. Not one airline can afford to pay this amount of money.
So if it's not about money but just jobs..............why don't you guys chip in a little. It still won't make you poor.
And if you're still not convinced, just watch this Late Line report about what the markets think.

Lateline Business - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/business/)

[muffman]

I have to agree. This interview was a silver platter of opportunity for AIPA to set itself aside from the other unions and crystalise what their position is. The interviewer even said "so it's not all about the money then?" as if to feed Barry the line. Unfortunately, it was a wasted opportunity. In the same way that leaders of large organisations are not expected to do their own PR, neither should Barry. It's simply not working. I say that as an AIPA member but non QF pilot.

I think AIPA are a victim of timing, and are being dragged down by the industrial action of other unions. Their public stance needs to distance themselves from this.

Some suggested points to drive home:

Red ties and inflight PAs have not disrupted anybody. Pilots are aviation professionals who take themselves, their profession and safety culture seriously. For Joyce & co to suggest Qantas pilots would be 'too distracted' to discharge their responsibilities safely is offensive. In the current climate, there is no point negotiating on anything other than job security because it is painfully obvious that the company intends to significantly downsize its international division. AIPA is not just another bully union, it is a professional association looking to secure a future for its professional members. Any refusal to negotiate on job security for international pilots by Qantas is a refusal to take safety seriously.

It looks like arbitration would put an end to any hope of job security being negotiated on, so the next three weeks are critical.

I think the Qantas flights / Qantas pilots thing is too simplistic. The rephrased version that Joyce prefers (paying JQ pilots the same as QF) is getting more air time. And it is effective - Barry Jackson was unable to successfully answer the question on Lateline about how much difference there actually is between JQ and QF pay. It looked really bad.

To crystalise the meaning of the job security clause, some more detail is required. To be honest, I'm not sure I believe in their current stance. I would tend to think that some commitments from the company about the future size of and investment in QF international would be more effective. I think we all realise the entire business model of JQ is based on lower wages.

Maybe it's worth leaping more on that bandwagon? 'This weekend, Joyce has shown his hand about wanting to run Qantas into the ground (figuratively). AIPA is now concerned about the continued existence of an Australian icon.' The general public have a propensity to protect the idea of Qantas the safe, Aussie airline, and AIPA needs to get on that bandwagon.

Just my 2c worth anyway. I want to get involved in some way other than ranting on PPRuNe but it seems like AIPA are intent on handling their own PR.

[muffman]

And what about the moral high ground? Why not get on that bandwagon too?

Unions are being accused of holding QF to ransom. AIPA needs to shoot that down. What Alan Joyce and the board are doing is wrong. It it just not right to destroy a good Australian company and off shore it. Why should Qantas go the way of Arnotts and vegemite? QF is one of Australia's biggest employers. If they are allowed to get away with not committing to keeping Australian jobs with the pilots, there will be no stopping where it goes after that. First it's the pilots, then it's the rest of the workforce. We are not holding Qantas to ransom, we are holding them to account. We will negotiate on anything, but we need to know our company wants us into the future.

Pull at the heart strings, guys. Come on! It's publicity A game time!

[muffman]

On another note, Bill Shorten was on-side and on-message in his interview on the same show I thought.

[Kangaroo Court]

Can anyone post a link to the interview?

[TBM-Legend]

bring back Brian McCarthy.....

[muffman]

Barry Jackson:
Lateline - 31/10/2011: Qantas needs to engage with workforce: Jackson (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352730.htm)

Bill Shorten:
Lateline - 31/10/2011: Not their only option: Shorten (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352726.htm)

[zoics88]

Lateline - 31/10/2011: Qantas needs to engage with workforce: Jackson (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352730.htm)

i'm just an observer, been watching from a tower near you for 30+ years...

not impressed with this performance but not surprised given the level of pr and media coaching available to AJ and his cronies

felt he could have nailed home a few key points: premeditation, cynical timing - AGM, CHOGM, spring carnival etc..
solidarity with TWU etc, real or not, would help in the pr war..

can't wait for comment from gruen planet on wednesday!!!

bon chance
Z

[Kangaroo Court]

I thought it was fairly positive for the union. I don't think it helps to berate a leader who has been thrown a curve ball of historical proportions over the last few days. He seems fairly humble and approachable, like somebody the public can trust, that's the most important thing.

[Me Myself]

Red ties and inflight PAs have not disrupted anybody. Pilots are aviation professionals who take themselves, their profession and safety culture seriously.

I beg to differ. When I fly, I am absolutly not interested in employee's rant. I just want to get home or wherever, hassle free and not pestered by PA annoucements other than what's expected from a normal airline.
I find this totally unprofessional.

There are other equally public ways to take your ( valid ) claims.
And please...........stop this " It's not about money " At 530 000 AUD for an A380 captain, this is totatlly indecent.
Your operation is losing 200 Millions a year. If your share of the cost is 4% this means 8 Millions for you to cut. Clear and simple.
Forget the pay rise !

[Kangaroo Court]

How about you ask Mr Joyce to give some of his dough back? The airline clearly can't afford that either.

[The Professor]

It appears to me that QF pilots are like most pilots; totally engaged during boom times of promotion and pay rise and yet grumpy and disengaged when the reverse happens. In other words, engagement is something the airline purchases.

What proposals have AIPA placed on the table to ensure QF remains competitive in a changing marketplace? Pay rises and better staff travel.

[Airbubba]

He was clearly nervous, and that is understandable given the magnitude of the situation. However he lacked any clearly articulated answers to any of the questions put to him, and at times it seemed even the simplest of responses was vague, disjointed and fumbled thru. There was no polish or sense of authority in his delivery.

He did seem still stunned by the recent events and somewhat puzzled that the $500,000 a year A380 pilots were swept up into the other unions' confrontation.

I agree, the questions were softballs. Hopefully he will be coached with better sound bites before the next interview.

Here on the other side of the world the headlines declare that the 'Qantas strike' is over:

Aussie court ends Qantas strike, fleet grounding - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9QMVVUO0.htm)

Aussie court ends Qantas strike that left tens of thousands stranded - Chicago Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/8506523-418/aussie-court-ends-qantas-strike-that-left-tens-of-thousands-stranded.html)

Qantas Strike 2011 Ends: Australian Court Puts Stop To Grounded Fleet, Labor Dispute (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/30/qantas-strike-2011-ends_n_1066353.html)

[SOPS]

Please Please Please give me a break...how many A380 Captaind actually earn $500000 a year?? J***us PLEASE get real:ugh:

[Airbubba]

Please Please Please give me a break...how many A380 Captaind actually earn $500000 a year?? J***us PLEASE get real

Well, average is more like $415,000 it is claimed:

The highest paid captain of an A380 gets $536,000 - an increase of more than $40,000 on last year - and the average A380 captain's wage is $415,000.

From: Qantas pilots on high flying wages | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/qantas-pilots-on-high-flying-wages/story-e6freuzr-1226165343157)

[Bankstown]

I'd hazard a guess that the A380 pilots who earn $500,000+ pa were never going to be locked out on Monday night anyway!

[Fantome]

Many valid points there MonsterC01.

Maybe Jacko should look into appointing you his briefing officer.

Please check your PMs.

[WorthWhat]

The leader of any union should be able to clearly present their members’ case publically without embarrassment. Last night, an opportunity to present the pilots’ case was missed.

If the president's preformance is typical of how the leadership of AIPA presented their case to investors and the parliament, is it little wonder!!!!

[standard]

@memyself, I'll bet you will be interested in what the pilot has to say when you hear a loud bang! The oxygen masks fall from the ceiling and the cabin starts filling with smoke.

When you walk off the aircraft in your urine soaked pants, don't forget to remind the pilot just how overpaid he is!

Get off your high uneducated horse!

[Kharon]

“Here we have a CEO who pocketed a two million dollar pay rise on Friday, stranded 68,000 passengers around the globe on Saturday, tried to pin the blame on the government on Sunday and then thinks he can claim victory and walk away scot-free on Monday". AIPA President Captain Barry Jackson.

Says all that needs to be said, very neatly for my 2 bobs worth.

[stillalbatross]

So Joyce's handling of the matter was risky. So he took an unprecedented step. So he needed the backing of the board to do it. So he put his reputation and his job on the line. So he forced the government to get involved? Sounds like a lot of work for a CEO.

I'm not surprised he got a pay rise. The markets put Qantas up around 5%, so they liked it.

[standard]

Be made a mockery of the government and took away workers rights to negotiate a fair deal

[73to91]

A pilot spoke on Ross Greenwood's 'Talking Money' show last night at about 19:15.

He, IMO, spoke well, put across to Greenwood some good points to which Greenwood agreed, then when he gave the example of the young new /manager's' straight out of Uni who come up with the 12 cups of tea from 1 tea bag rule to save money.......Greenwood laughed and basically finished the call.

My point though, there has to be guys out there who can tell the media what's going on, there are no doubt, plenty of pilots who can do it but as for doing it on camera.... not sure about that, surely a 2nd tier PR company could be used.

[AussieAviator]

I didn't realize that AJ wanted to be a pilot, earlier in his career. Here is the online article.
Pilot reject came up through ranks | Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/pilot-reject-came-up-through-ranks/story-fn6ck51p-1226180946568)

Pilot reject came up through ranks

by: Robyn Ironside
From: The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/)
October 31, 2011 12:00AM




http://w.sharethis.com/images/check-big.png0


http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/10/30/1226180/948156-alan-joyce.jpg
WORKING CLASS: Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce. Picture: AFP Source: AFP



THE man who is attempting to steer Qantas through the biggest crisis of its 90-year history is a mathematical whiz from a working-class Irish family.

Alan Joyce entered the aviation industry straight out of Trinity College in Dublin where he studied science, majoring in physics and maths.
The eldest son of blue-collar parents Maurice and Collette, Joyce dreamed of being a pilot when he started work with Ireland's national carrier Aer Lingus in 1988 but failed the vision test.
Instead he focused on management, and quickly moved up the ranks from his first job as operations research analyst.
After eight years with Aer Lingus, during which Joyce worked on an ultimately unsuccessful plan to match the aggressive budget airline Ryanair, he was headhunted by Ansett and moved to Melbourne.
He left before the airline went bust, joining Qantas in late 2000 as the head of network planning.

Just three years later, Joyce was made chief executive of Jetstar where he used chunks of the Ryanair business model to build a successful budget airline. This included the 25-minute aircraft turnaround policy, to get maximum use out of aircraft and reduce the cost of flight crew stopovers.
In 2005, Joyce was asked to head up Aer Lingus, but he stuck with Jetstar and in 2008 was rewarded with the plum position of Qantas chief executive, replacing Geoff Dixon.
Much has been made of the fact Joyce started in the job on a much-reduced salary to his predecessor, but has since increased his annual income to more than $5 million a year.
Joyce became an Australian citizen in 2004.
Now 45, Joyce is intensely private and has refused to even name his long-term partner - a New Zealand man - with whom he lives at The Rocks in Sydney.

[Amygdala1]

I met a man a few years ago, about early fifties and as a Captain, he was about to leave JS for SE Asia to fly. He had a recent experience that he was not comfortable with (and my job involved discussing that). He told me much about the 25 minute turnaround and how that business model did not fit with his training and career understanding of safe flight, planning, briefing, aircraft preparation aspects etc. I came from the same flying training regime as this as did many of us who learned to fly in the 70's. There have been many incidents associated with these issues and there will be many more as there is really only one way to prepare for flight. Sure aviation, especially high-end public transport, is safe but this safety is diminished by this business model. The fact remains that passengers see aviation as risky, probably because when it goes wrong, it is is really spectacular and the business model results are usually terminal. Sometimes the self-righteous, uneducated and narrow-minded means to an end by business managers is self-destructive. The management model should really include some strong operational and safety component that can balance this, otherwise there may be no business model to worry about as the supply and demand chain will diminish to zero very quickly; spectacularly in fact.

[DutchRoll]

I beg to differ. When I fly, I am absolutly not interested in employee's rant. I just want to get home or wherever, hassle free and not pestered by PA annoucements other than what's expected from a normal airline.
I find this totally unprofessional.
Unprofessional?

Do you find it unprofessional that couriers delivering lockout notices to pilots have stated that the delivery was booked before the AGM?

Do you find it unprofessional that the CEO of a very large company would say things on camera that are demonstrably false or exaggerated?

Do you find it unprofessional that a Qantas spokeswoman would complain that "you can't just switch an airline on and off" only a few weeks before its CEO did exactly that?

Do you find it unprofessional that a CEO would collectively punish tens of thousands of customers with virtually no notice at all, on a weekend?

Do you only complain about "professionalism" when it suits you? :confused:

[Capt Kremin]

Me myself and anyone else who believes QF propaganda... The QF LH EBA can be viewed online and the current hourly pay rates for pilots can easily be found and analysed.

Some notes for your research. A380 pilots are flying a fleet that is still developing so very few of the line pilots fly a full line... They are displaced for training. The current roster divisor is 160 hours and there are 6.25 roster periods in a year. This will get you a base rate. Add approx 20 hours of overtime for 5 of those roster periods. Add another 30 hours for simulator and ground duties.

That will give you the gross pay of an average line a380 captain. If you come up with a figure anywhere near 530000 dollars give me a call and I will refer you to a good calculator repair shop.

[V-Jet]

I watched Lateline. I was a little disappointed with some of the missed opportunities, but my wife thought he was great. He certainly did not come across as a militant evil unionist and did get good points across.

FWIW I was told by someone I trust that there ARE some management capts on the 380 earning over $500. I was staggered, no they certainly would never be the ones locked out, but it seems it is true.

When you consider relative salaries, I think one point is often missed. Qantas salaries from the -400 down are on par with the rest of the world. The 380 seems a bit higher, but remember the $AUD has 'never' been this high. If anything untoward happens in China, it is highly likely the $AU will fall quickly to its historical norms of .65c - .85c. That would adjust the pay scales considerably - as it would fuel.

[Xeptu]

Australians need to wake up. we are selling our country right across the board not just the airline industry.
The day is coming that australians in order to live and work in australia in any role other than a manager, will first have to have lived and worked in Asia.

[1a sound asleep]

but my wife thought he was great. He certainly did not come across as a militant evil unionist and did get good points across.

The aggressive militant tone of the other leaders is now doing damage. Your wife is correct.:ok: Barry was calm and conciliatory - this is the tone the public support in a pilot

Carry on Like Alan Joyce and you wont get any support from anybody

[TBM-Legend]

don't restructure the business and see what happens>>>

Swissair/Pan Am/SAS/TWA/Eastern/United/America West/PSA/Wardair/UTA/Ansett/nearly ANZ/Sabena/Olympic/etc etc

[Happy Gilmore]

Troll Alert !!!

[mince]

I agree, no disrespect to Barry Jackson, but he doesn't present well in interviews. Television or radio.

Ian Woodward is a much better choice to front the media, in my opinion.

[ernestkgann]

Why didn't you add MacAir to the list TBM?

[frothy]

Just a quick one, maybe it's time for Fatigue management on all players after the weekend dramas. Barry Jackson looked worn out to me, I wonder how long it is since he's had his wife's cold feet on his back in his own bed:zzz:

frothy

[Jabawocky]

TBM
don't restructure the business and see what happens>>>

Swissair/Pan Am/SAS/TWA/Eastern/United/America West/PSA/Wardair/UTA/Ansett/nearly ANZ/Sabena/Olympic/etc etc

Nobody doubts the place needs a restructure, but one obvious point you made suggests a vast contrast to the current boards approach. nearly ANZ

I wonder what they do different?:)

[Jetsbest]

- It's been the company saying "no" for >12 months,
- It's been the company which, through its own deceptive/misleading/disingenuous recent history and looseness with facts, has failed to clearly and unambiguously lead employees where they need to get to,
- It's been the company which failed to make a counter-offer to the contentious claims,
- It was the company's 'negotiating style' which prompted FWA to authorise specified and legal "Protected Industrial Action",
- It's been AIPA (& others in their way) which complied with every FWA requirement in 'ramping up' to wearing the incredibly disruptive red ties,
- It was AJ who grounded the airline with 3-hours notice. :hmm:

[TIMA9X]

uMpByV_yOMo


for the record.

[The The]

98% of shareholders don't support you

86% of shareholders (mums and dads) only hold 8% of the votes, they could never have a say.

It is likely that the majority of shareholders were against the resolutions with a minority of shareholders holding 96% of the shareholdings passing them.

Perhaps it's time that for interests sake, the results from individual shareholders votes be available.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Wow - there is a first. Some Jetstar pilots earn more than Qantas pilots and/or Jetstar pilots basically earn the same - as quoted by Barry

[Trent 972]

ALI MOORE: But does a Qantas pilot earn a lot more to fly the same aircraft than a Jetstar pilot?

BARRY JACKSON: Not necessarily. I mean, it's apples and pears, I guess, because Jetstar doesn't run A-380s. On the A-330, it's similar.

ALI MOORE: What, similar wage rates?

BARRY JACKSON: Similar wage rates. And in fact some Jetstar pilots are earning more than Qantas pilots at the moment because they're working harder. So it depends on how much work is done.

Actually T-Vasis, that is the quote. You seem to have missed the reason why.

[unionist1974]

Well , I disagree with most posters , Barry comes across as a honest , genuine bloke . He can look the at the camera without shifting his eyes unlike our mate from the ALAEA . I thought he did ok , did not rant threaten or abuse anyone . Well done Barry.

[gobbledock]

So Barry dropped the ball hey?

Did he word all his responses as well as could be? Maybe not.
Did he articulate things from an employee's perspective as best as possible? Maybe not.
Did he at least have the balls to defend his troops, to try his best to explain things from a workforce perspective, did he try to remain professional while placed in a position where every word, movement and facial twitch is analysed by the enemy???? Absolutely !!!

So you know what, he has my support, and he has the support of many members. Perhaps those who are so critical of his performance would like to step up to the plate and have a go themselves?

[peuce]

You can't blame the Union reps, there's so much going on, so many side issues and so much confusion.

What you have to do, and I'm sure your Union leaders are looking at it, is to decide on ONE message ... and then try and sell it.

Qantas is doing it ... we have the right to run our business and we need to reduce costs to run it at a profit.. Much of the public agree with this, and the corporate world certainly does. In fact, logically, who wouldn't agree with it?
How do you counter that message?

First, get rid of all the peripheral messages ... like we deserve a wage increase because of how well we work, or how we do it better than anyone else. We all feel like that.

For me, this is the message ....

Yes, corporations, in principle, have the right to decide their own direction. However, there are certain corporations that have an additional national responsibility?

Qantas, because of how its present entity was formed, and because of the additional responsibilities attached to that creation, is such a corporation.

Although those responsibilities may be more onerous than those of other public companies, they were known or implied, and accepted, at the time of creation.

Those responsibilities mean that Qantas is, in fact, owned not only be the shareholders, but by every Australian.

Yes, the shareholders own the profits, however, every other Australian is entitled to the employment opportunities, the supply opportunities, the training opportunities and the prestige offered by the Qantas brand being wholly based within Australia.

Moving any of those opportunities offshore is stealing from Australian pockets.

[teresa green]

The poor bloke was probably buggered, fair dinkum, these blokes have been up for days, give him a break, he probably needs to hit the sack for a few hours, and then have a few beers, before he goes back to the circus.

[KRUSTY 34]

So, Joyce is a failed pilot!

No greater enemy to professional aviators.

[SilverSleuth]

I didn't think he did that bad. He is exhausted I think.
I just got the impression he thinks what most do now. Its pretty much game over.
Qantas have to only drag it out now and then they know that a FWA panel will highly unlikely make the company sign any security clauses. And thats all Joyce wants! Who cares about a 2-3% pay rise when those people wont be around to get it in 5 years and the new asia world workers are on 60% less. I hope i'm wrong mind you, but I think Barry looks a bit like another past defeated pilot/spokesman from 1989.
Good on ya Barry for taking a stand though. Take a bow!

[Capt Kremin]

Barry has been run ragged the last few months. He was flying home the night before the AGM, (actually flying Qantas customers instead of plotting to cynically disrupt them like some others..) and I doubt he has had much sleep in the intervening few days.

He has done everything he could. Give him a break.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Barry has done a fine job, he must be very very tired, as must the other Union Officials.

[Taildragger67]

Barry has done a fine job, he must be very very tired, as must the other Union Officials.

Fine, but if there is a message to be got across, then have a reserve who isn't tired and wheel them out.

[SimonBl]

Well, many thanks to TIMA9X for posting the video. If I hadn't watched it, I would have believed the view that MonsterCO1 (IIRC) presented.

I now think that that view was overly harsh and I think that Barry did as well as can be expected for someone in the hot seat, without it being his full time job responding to media interviews (I presume). Yes, there were a few ummms and arrrrghs, but it's not easy (having done it on one or two occasions) being interviewed and thinking on your feet.

So, from me, well done Barry, you did AIPA proud.

[DutchRoll]

All union supporters need to realise that 98% of shareholders don't support you. Never fight against the market and we have now seen strong support from the equity market for QF stock and effectively AJ. Best advice is to get back to work and do your jobs, if you don't like it, you know where the door is. Rest assured that on the other side of that door, there are plenty waiting to take your job!!

Gee you're everybody's favourite boss eh? I bet your workers absolutely adore you and go that extra mile to do their best for you. :rolleyes:

And it's not "98% of the shareholders". It's "98% of the votes". They're not the same thing. Everybody knows that, and treating us all like idiots will do you no favours. Voting in listed companies' AGMs is heavily skewed towards institutions. 10,000 individual shareholders can vote against a motion because they think it's a disgrace, but a couple of big institutions can wipe that vote totally off the map. It has always been that way.

And institutions generally don't care what a company does, or how it does it, as long as it makes them money, or they are promised it'll make them money.

Yeah yeah, I know. Don't feed the trolls. But it's like seagulls. Sometimes you just can't help but chuck them a couple of chips just for amusement.

[Howard Hughes]

Joyce dreamed of being a pilot when he started work with Ireland's national carrier Aer Lingus in 1988 but failed the vision test.
Now it all makes sense...:rolleyes:

PS: From what I have seen, I think both Barry Jackson and Richard Woodward have done a great job speaking on behalf of AIPA.:ok:

[TIMA9X]

Barry has been run ragged the last few months. He was flying home the night before the AGM, (actually flying Qantas customers instead of plotting to cynically disrupt them like some others..)

I have to agree, please guys don't start beating each other up at this stage of events, BJ is a pilot first then a TV personality. He did a good job last night considering all the events over the weekend... Don't feed the trolls on here with the notion that we are fighting each other... at the end of the day AJ is on the nose with the punters and many in the media. I believe AJ will be under a lot of pressure in the next month or so explaining the poor performance of all departments within the Q group, and it will not be just long haul.. every dog has his day, ours is coming.

[clotted]

Capt Kremin,
there are 6.25 roster periods in a year.365 divided by 56 equals 6.5178571 so is it not true that there are approximately 6.5 bid periods in a year therefore your calculations of an annual salary is 4% less than it really is. I understand that there are 56 days in each roster period, is that not true?

[Capt Kremin]

Clotted, 6.5 is correct. My mistake. NP..as I add you to my ignore list...blow it out your @r$e!

[What The]

NewPiper,

I put on the uniform as often as the company rosters me to put it on. If the frequency doesn't thrill you talk to the company for their rostering, the regulator for daring to impose legal limits or management for daring to create great inefficiencies in the business to suit an ideology.

[adsyj]

NewPiper

You are just plain ignorant.

[Me Myself]

Standard

A ride around te paddock on my educated horse would do you a world of good by the sound of your very graphic post.

How many times have heard this lame excuse ?
My point is.............I do not give to figs about your dispute when travelling.........and probably even less when home.
What have we heard so far ? :
1/ It's not about money...........it's about jobs ! 2,6% pay rise, although far from being astronomical, is a nogo in a 200 Million losing operation. Your share of cost cutting is 8 Million and top this with what Joyce should put into the pot instead of a pay rise which, I'm sure, he will come to regret.
Don't get me wrong. If your airline was able to pay you 1000 000 AUD to fly the A380 and still make money, I would only say lucky you. No pangs of jealousy. I am very happy with my life thank you very much.
Do not make the mistake everyone contributing on this threads and not sharing your opinion is either jealous or a frustrated pilot who didn't make it to Qantas. Just for the record.

Then this spoiled brat claim about better staff travel. I have no recollection of Qantas being greedy with staff travel.

But then, the market seems to have liked the lock out, Qantas share up 4 % and where does the money to buy planes come from ????

You want to keep the jobs in Australia ? Well then, adapt to what the competition does..............or renationalize Qantas and let the tax payer chip in.
You will discover that it takes a lot more than wearing a red tie or make unnecessary PA annoucements, to impress a very fickle travelling public to which I belong.You are surely just as fickle and greedy when it comes to spending your money when you buy a car or whatever.
I want the price to be right, not risk my life and get home on time. Some others than QF seem able to achieve just that at a lower cost.
No one wants to see QF disappear, but it seems you and Joyce are doing a pretty good damn job to achieve just that.
It's high time arbitration sets in and stops you guys from clubbing each other to death.


And please, do not use one event to sugar coat your claims. I would take your remark from Richard de Crespigny............certainly not from you.

[Jetsbest]

Are you also factoring in the 'value' of missing:
- important events at home,
- public holidays,
- time wasted in places while obligations/people at home need you?

Allowances? Are you suggesting that people absent on duty should pay for the privilege too? Public servants, military, pollies, businesses and, I bet, even you wouldn't do it so what's your point?

Have you walked a mile in the shoes, or just like to imagine you have? You're sounding like some 'rubber desk Johnnie' who thinks crew go on a holiday every week! :rolleyes:

[Capt Fathom]

Hey Piper, did your wife leave you for a Qantas pilot. :uhoh:

[paulg]

Peuce: Yes, corporations, in principle, have the right to decide their own direction. However, there are certain corporations that have an additional national responsibility?

Qantas, because of how its present entity was formed, and because of the additional responsibilities attached to that creation, is such a corporation.

Although those responsibilities may be more onerous than those of other public companies, they were known or implied, and accepted, at the time of creation.

Those responsibilities mean that Qantas is, in fact, owned not only be the shareholders, but by every Australian.

Yes, the shareholders own the profits, however, every other Australian is entitled to the employment opportunities, the supply opportunities, the training opportunities and the prestige offered by the Qantas brand being wholly based within Australia.

Moving any of those opportunities offshore is stealing from Australian pockets.


YES THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE TOLD OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!

[Oakape]

Your operation is losing 200 Millions a year.
I am reading & hearing this more & more in regards to the QF situation. It is becoming obvious that the $200 million figure for QF long haul losses is becoming an accepted fact, by a large percentage of the press & the general public at large.

People need to remember that this figure is simply the figure announced by QF to support their position & has not been proven to be fact by QF in any way, shape or form.

Actually, the accuracy of the figure has been questioned by many, ever since it was announced by AJ.

This is a perfect case of unsubstantiated information becoming fact. You put the information you want out there & then repeat it as often as you can. Eventually the press picks it up as fact & runs with it & then the general public start to consider it as fact as well.

The only way to reverse the perception is to do the same process in reverse. Question the accuracy of the figure over & over again. Ask for QF to justify the figure over & over again. Ask the questions regarding JetStar costs being transferred to the QF long haul accounts over & over again.

Eventually the mainstream press will pick it up & run with it & then the public will be asking the same questions in their minds also. Particularly now, as both the press & sections of the public are ready to go after QF & AJ.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Yeah agree he came across a bit disheveled and awkwardly, although you have to forgive the man given he was up till 2am for the FWA verdict- he clearly looked exhausted from my tv set at what was a 2200 interview after a few very long days....

Woodward does seem to have a better finesse to his speech as well as manerisms , evident on the 7pm project other night where he was faced with what id rate one of the dumbest questions of the year by George Negus equating pilots to bus drivers- Woodwards response " I fly a 327 million dollar plane insured for 5 billion with 457 lives onboard' and that sir is called ownage!

[victor two]

Ive said it before on other threads but here we go:

There are many in Qantas, and I am talking directly about engineers and pilots, who are grossly overpaid and grossly under worked and who are also represented by some of the dumbest, most backward unions on the planet. These union meatheads still talk about the Eureka stockade like it was their finest hour.... when all that happened was their smelly-bearded union forefathers were mowed down in a hail of musket balls and life went on as usual the next day. Is that still your gauge of a successful IR campaign?

You clowns dont stand a chance of winning and will still have your bottom lips stuck out in another 20 years about this issue, just like those who frequent these pages still carping about the big strike of '89. Yep, that should have taught you a lesson but obviously you are slow learners!

Pathetic!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The only way to reverse the perception is to do the same process in reverse. Question the accuracy of the figure over & over again. Ask for QF to justify the figure over & over again. Ask the questions regarding JetStar costs being transferred to the QF long haul accounts over & over again. Interesting point. Now the company will almost inevitably get the Workplace Determination they were so desperately seeking, understanding the process becomes important.

A workplace determination is where a full bench of FWA formally hears supporting arguments from both sides regarding the issues in dispute. I recall writing to Qantas a letter with 61 questions regarding the announced 200 million International loss. They never answered them.

The answer to these questions and the supporting evidence will most certainly be subpoenaed in view of the full public in about a months time as part of the determination hearing. If anyone here thinks that the facts about Qantas can be hidden forever, please think again. This dispute (which is not just about 3 EA Agreements) has a long way to run yet. We won't win every battle. Not every day will be a good day. Your union Reps will make mistakes but the truth will set us all free.

[Oakape]

The other thing that annoys me is QF management, the press & even some of the posters here, crapping on about pilot salaries.

Forget about the individual salaries for a minute & take a look at the cost impact on ticket prices. As Barry Jackson pointed out in his interview, pilot costs are about 2% to 4%. So if you take a $4,000 international ticket for example & use the higher figure of 4%, the cost of both the captain & first officer in that ticket is just $160. Using a 50% savings on pilots salaries (and they are not going to get anywhere near that by offshoring or anything else), saves a mere $80 on that ticket!

Putting the individual salaries out there, along with quoting the highest salary they can get away with, is a smokescreen to hoodwink the public, the politicians & the press into believing that pilot salaries are a major factor in the cost issues the company claims it is having.

[Captain Gidday]

Here's another thing that is in danger of becoming fact if it is repeated often enough:

New Piper said:
The restructuring of LH will and must occur, 98% of shareholders approve of it

The shareholders were asked to approve the CEO's salary increase. 98% of votes cast were in favour of that. The shareholders were not asked to vote on any restructuring plan.

[kotoyebe]

Fed Sec,

As much as I love reading your posts, it maybe worthwhile keeping a low profile at the moment regarding your plans and tactics?

You don't want to be giving the other side any free kicks.

I'm sure all 3 unions have a plan mapped out with multiple scenarios, which included the lockout. So don't give them any information via this forum. We know they read it!

[Whiskery]

You guys still feeding this management troll "oldPiper" :ok:

[DutchRoll]

NewPiper, victor two and Me Myself:

It is a beautiful sunny day outside here (in Sydney at least). It is not safe for you to venture out, or as you well know, you will turn to stone.

I just have your best interests at heart, that's all........

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

As much as I love reading your posts, it maybe worthwhile keeping a low profile at the moment regarding your plans and tactics?

You don't want to be giving the other side any free kicks.

I'm sure all 3 unions have a plan mapped out with multiple scenarios, which included the lockout. So don't give them any information via this forum. We know they read it!

Yes I agree buddy and have been extremely tight lipped about what will happen next. The post you refer to was well thought out and discussed beforehand. Qantas do read this forum it important for them to understand that these things will come out one way or another.

[gobbledock]

Steve,
I agree with kotoyebe. Time to enact 'stealth mode', go to ground, plan the next movements and not give the parasites anthing they can use against you.
Besides, you hardly have to utter a word at the moment, AJ's actions have brought enough attention on themselves from a variety of individuals. Sit back and watch the ball of string unravel at their own hands.

[neville_nobody]

You want to keep the jobs in Australia ? Well then, adapt to what the competition does..............or renationalize Qantas and let the tax payer chip in.

You obviously don't understand the issues at play here by that comment. The competition are government sponsored airlines which aren't real competition. Geoff Dixon was always bitching about this problem but it fell on deaf ears in Australian government circles.

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

jetbest

yeah buddy, missing important occasions and home family time is why airline pilots, especially longhaulers earn good bucks generally.

We all miss out on the things you mention - the argument is why a QF pilot thinks he needs to be paid more than a singair/thai/china/NZ pilot to suffer the same lifestyle problems.

If it sucks being away from home, will more money really help. And if more money aint forthcoming, then aint market forces speaking to you?

[DutchRoll]

.....the argument is why a QF pilot thinks he needs to be paid more than a singair/thai/china/NZ pilot to suffer the same lifestyle problems.
Well leaving aside tax and cost of living issues which make that a grossly oversimplified comparison, most LH QF pilots are not in dispute with Qantas because they "think they should be paid more than everyone else".

To most QF LH pilots including myself it doesn't matter a rat's (pardon the pun) what we get paid if Alan Joyce is hell bent on sending our jobs offshore, shrinking the premium brand significantly, and causing our Qantas career prospects to grind to a complete halt (which they already have right now). It just doesn't matter what we get paid. I don't care a fig what I get paid until the above problems get addressed because until I have a career and long term job, pay is entirely "notional"!

It wouldn't matter if I took a 50% pay cut. Joyce wants to wind up mainline as much as he can and send the jobs to Asia regardless. There is no point in negotiating anything at all if he is going to do that. If he decides not to send mainline business across to Asia, then we can start talking efficiencies, working harder, who gets paid what, etc. But until then, it simply doesn't matter. You're debating pay scales for an Australian job which is about to cease to exist!

[Tankengine]

How come I can earn more flying for China Southern base here in Australia?:confused:

A330 Captain.

My mates overseas on similar aircraft earn more than I do.:ugh:

The whole pay argument is a furphy!:hmm:

Esp if $US rate changes back to 75cents [or 50 cents!:eek:]

[peuce]

You're all making this too complicated.

It costs Overseas Airline Alpha $x per pilot (or engineer, or cabin crew).
It costs that pilot $y to live in Alpha ... and he walks away with $z left over

It costs Qantas $2x per pilot (or engineer, or cabin crew).
It costs that pilot $2y to live in Australia ... and he walks away with $z left over

So, generally speaking, the staff of all airlines have a similar financial outcome.

However, Qantas doesn't want to pay $2x ... it only wants to pay $x ... and play in the same playpen as all the other cheap airlines.

However, we are saying to Qantas that they can still pay $2x and make a decent profit ... IF, they continue to accept nothing less than technical and operational excellence. That is what will RE-build the brand and what will warrant a premium fare price.

History has proven that many people WILL pay a premium for excellence.

[oicur12.again]

Tankengine,

QF A330 Captain?

[Tankengine]

"QF A330 Captain?"

Yes, unlike some, I am open as to what I am.:)

[oicur12.again]

The CA 330 contract is considerably less than what a QF skipper would earn. The CS contract is only several thousand more than CA - depending on which version you read.

I would be very surprised if you could earn more with CS than QF.

[neville_nobody]

So, generally speaking, the staff of all airlines have a similar financial outcome.

That is not actually true. Asian pilots generally have the entire cost of training paid for by the airline. Additional to that their pay relative to the local cost of living is much higher than Australia. You will always be better off as a pilot being a local and working for the likes of Sing Air or Thai than being an Aussie, going through GA, and then working for QF

[Tankengine]

Oicur12.again,

CS Sydney based contract as currently advertised is a higher pay than I personally have earned over the last three financial years.:{

Fact!:ooh:

[aroniyang]

@peuce maybe not that easy, i plug in some numbers to x and y and get 2z left over for the Aussie pilot :8

[peuce]

It's a generalisation ....

The point I was trying to make was that ... Qantas don't want to pay an Australian salary, no mater how big or small it is. They don't care if it's bigger than Cathay or smaller than Emirates. that's all just smokescreen. They just don't want to pay it.

They want to pay an Asian salary..

If the Qantas pilots said to management right now ... "we don't want a pay rise, in fact, we'll take a 2% decrease" ... Qantas would still not want to pay it.

[clotted]

Peuce,
It appears that you have swallowed the stuff that is being pedalled in the media. I cannot find anywhere in reliable sources as opposed to assertions that Qantas is in any way attempting to reduce their pilots pay.
I can find quotes by union reps stating that they believe that if the Qantas pilots offered to work for nothing Qantas would still not agree to their job security claims. They are 2 entirely different things.
That is in the same boat as Tony Sheldon stating that Qantas is trying to transfer 35,000 good Australian jobs to Asia. I cannot imagine how a bag slinger based in Asia can load and unload bags at Sydney airport. If Qantas was successful in basing 35,000 employees in Asia, that would mean that all current employees including Joyce would need to be based in Asia to get to 35,000 in total.

[peuce]

I agree it's all supposition at this stage, as Qantas won't/can't publish their End Game.

All we do know is that 1000 jobs are definitely going, Qantas is establishing another Asian Airline, Qantas constantly laments the misfortunes of it's International Division, Qantas refuses to guarantee job security and Qantas continually prattles on about how "other airlines can pay less, why can't we?".

I guess we could all sit around and play tiddly winks waiting for Qantas to tell the world what it has in mind ... or we could put two and two together.... and ask some questions.

And, for mine, it isn't about the money anymore. I don't think Qantas really cares what the staff get given at the inevitable FWA hearing... as the plan is to eventually replace as many of them as is practicable, and is allowed under the Qantas Sale Act.

My prediction is that either:

More and more Qantas International flights will spawn from international ports, in internationally registered aircraft with international crews;or
Australian registered and crewed aircraft will be relegated to feeding an international hub ... from which the aforementioned international aircraft will take over.

[ga_trojan]

The ideal end game will be along the lines of:

Major base in SIN with Jetstar Asia and the premium carrier operating A320/A330 flying from there to all major cities in Australia. The ground staff will be contractors in Australia abolish the TWU influence.

Unlimited rights from SIN to fly wherever they want.

Destroy mainline international. The premium carrier will replace that. Codeshare with other carriers. Possibly get American to pickup the Pacific or if they can get the Premium Asian carrier to do it. Maybe Jetconnect with 777?

Abolish mainline domestic by playing the 'it's to expensive card'

Once they're all gone they go and repaint/rebrand Jetstar to Qantas and have
everyone in QF uniforms working on Red Tail aircraft again.

On the Red Tail the setup will be:
Jetconnect doing the Tasman/Pacific
What is now Jetstar Australia rebranded as Qantas Domestic.
The premium carrier in SIN picking up all the International flying hubbing through SIN.

There could also be a breakup in play too by where they supposedly run down QF mainline then flog it off to a private company who then either does a Gordon Gecko and sells it off or miraculously turns around QF mainline and paysoff Alan Joyce and Dixon in the process as with the last private equity bid.

[Oakape]

I cannot find anywhere in reliable sources as opposed to assertions that Qantas is in any way attempting to reduce their pilots pay.

Refusing to accept "Qantas pilots flying Qantas planes" (what has been called the job security clause) & therefore protect the offshoring of pilot jobs that has already begun, and then the same breath say that QF need to reduce costs, is just another way of saying that they want to reduce pilot salaries. Why else would they be disclosing how much pilots earn & why else would they be factoring in staff travel & other benefits, using questionable costings, to say that pilots are after an almost 30% increase, unless they want to keep downward pressure on pilot salaries & justify their assertion that they need to offshore jobs in order to cut costs?

However, I believe that the main thrust here is to get rid of as many of the pilot body as possible, along with anybody else they can offshore & their EBA's with them. This is so they can get around Australian labor laws, CASA regulation & the Australian taxation system as much as possible. Flight & duty times, reduced taxation, little or no redundancy provisions, along with many other factors, go hand in hand with overall direct cost reductions (salaries, etc), in the never ending quest for greater & greater profits.

[Fliegenmong]

All good points GA Trojan

BUT....Why would I pay for a ticket with an outfit(s) like that!

[clotted]

their assertion that they need to offshore jobs in order to cut costs?
I challenge you to produce a direct quote from Qantas [I emphasise Qantas not anyone else], that this is their agenda.

[TIMA9X]

I guess we could all sit around and play tiddly winks waiting for Qantas to tell the world what it has in mind ... or we could put two and two together.... and ask some questions.

phase two of the big plan, "Joyce now makes up to Canberra, after last weekend" it's starting to feel like it is starting today.. hope AIPA are ready for this....

Qantas will weather turbulence coming out of Canberra

The attacks on Qantas over who got told what when about the group's decision to ground its aircraft on Saturday is a confection.
To borrrow from Sherlock Holmes, the dog hasn't barked - there is no evidence that the Qantas chief executive, Alan Joyce, has terminally damaged his group's relations with the government.
He's dented Qantas's reputation, and is pedaling hard now to repair it.


But the restructuring of Qantas that Joyce has begun is unlikely to be fatally undermined by what happened on the weekend. The government understands what Joyce is trying to achieve and it supports it.
Senior Labor figures including the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, the Assistant Treasurer, Bill Shorten, and the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, have criticised Qantas for not informing the government of the shutdown sooner.
But even as he said again yesterday that Qantas had not told the government that a full grounding was imminent, Albanese acknowledged that Qantas had been talking ''very clearly and publicly'' that if industrial action continued there would be groundings.
The ''logical extension'' was that ''it would reach a point whereby the airline would make a decision because of the proportion of the fleet that was grounded, that it was time to ground the entire fleet,'' he said.
Translation: Alan Joyce didn't tell government ministers several weeks ago to set their phone alarms to remind them at 5pm on Saturday, October 29, that Qantas would be announcing a decision to lock out its pilots, engineers and ground crew and, as a consequence, immediately grounding its fleet.

Read more: Qantas will weather turbulence coming out of Canberra (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-will-weather-turbulence-coming-out-of-canberra-20111102-1mvts.html#ixzz1cZufJwKZ)

[mohikan]

Those that hold hope that the attacks on Qantas by Gillard / Albanese and Shorten in parliament question time over the last three days mark a sea change in government sentiment towards this dispute should read the above SMH article carefully.

Remember that Joyce and the board are currently being advised by Bain & Co and Freehills Lawyers - they are experts engineering industrial relations disputes so that the outcome always falls in the employers favour.

There is no question that the reaction of the government to the grounding would have been factored into the plan. They are on the glide path perfectly in my view

On other matters, there have been a number of very disturbing incidents within Qantas flight operations over the last few days. By this I mean the behaviour of certain member of flight ops management towards line pilots.

For those QF pilots in the process of seeking new jobs, it might be a good idea to disguise the identity of your new employer if possible. I believe that it is well within the realm of possibility that we may see a repeat of the "political dissidents" episode that dogged some of the guys in Europe post 1989.

The company has gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure that mainline pilots do not have other employment opportunities elsewhere in the Qantas group.

Despite being significantly short of crew, only a handful of QF guys have been able to transfer to JQD, JQI, JQA and JQP. Whilst I have heard the arguments about 'pollution' before, the reality is that the endgame is now well in process, and Qantas (if it had any brains) would be facilitating the process for guys and girls to leave mainline without paying redundancies as much as possible.

The reality is opposite. The only conclusion I can come to is that Clifford and Joyce not only want to run Qantas pilots out of the company, but they want to inflict maximum personal and financial damage on each individual pilot in the process.

We all need to be aware of this and proceed accordingly.

[teresa green]

The way I see it is, in this relentless push to Asia by Joyce, and going into a already over saturated market, with the bones of already failed companies both in Aviation and other types of business littering the place, the chance of success for QF is not very high especially in Japan. So what then happens to the Mother Company? What last weekend showed us in no uncertain terms was despite the mutterings of Qantas being finished, it is anything but. It showed how much Australians rely on their National Carrier, it also showed how much Australian business and tourism relies on their National Carrier, and the outrage of it being taken away was palpable. Yet Joyce is prepared to risk all this, and sail the company into uncharted waters, and risk the welfare of all its employees and their families. If Qantas fails in Asia, as it surely will, what will be left to salvage? Can it continue to fly in Australia if there is anything left, or will JQ take up the slack, and do what we all thought it would do in the future anyway. So many questions, so few answers, but I fear for the company and its people, and I fear for the future under this bloke and Clifford. What a sad day for this country it will be when the future generation cannot further their dreams of being a Qantas pilot or Engineer, then for no other reason than the positions have been filled from those from Asia.

[DutchRoll]

The only conclusion I can come to is that Clifford and Joyce not only want to run Qantas pilots out of the company, but they want to inflict maximum personal and financial damage on each individual pilot in the process.

I don't know that they want to intentionally inflict personal damage. I just think they want Qantas mainline out of their life, and don't particularly care how it happens.

As far as getting jobs with other airlines goes, I don't think it's a problem and certainly there is a considerable exodus from mainline Qantas at the moment, the likes of which I never thought I'd see. Qantas will of course distort those figures as most of them are using leave-without-pay provisions, though I suspect the majority will probably not come back. Therefore Qantas can truthfully (though misleadingly) say there have been very few resignations.

There aren't many airline CEOs who'll lose sleep over taking Joyce's qualified and experienced employees. Least of all Borghetti, as he moves to fill the void Joyce is gifting him while he goes off on his majority asian-owned and operated adventures (misadventures?) using Qantas capital and gradually feeds the remnants of his premium carrier to his bouncing, low-cost silver & orange baby boy.

Geoffrey Thomas and certain other creatures inhabiting this forum might say that it's "necessary for the survival of Qantas" but this line of thinking is very reminiscent of the famous "it was necessary to destroy the town to save it" quote regarding the town of Ben Tre during the Vietnam War.

[V-Jet]

I don't know that they want to intentionally inflict personal damage. I just think they want Qantas mainline out of their life, and don't particularly care how it happens.

Precisely.

1) They are incompetent and cannot run a premium airline themselves so logically it is impossible for ANYONE to do it. **
which leads to:
2) The genuinely believe that Qantas has to die and these nasty unions are ruining all hope of success.

Unfortunately there is no one in management with any operational experience in airlines (only management experience) and as all are 'yes-men' there are no dissenting opinions - especially since JB left. Therefore they KNOW they are correct. They just do not understand airlines in any way so they have no clue about the damage they have done. Being fair to them, having never worked (operationally) in one, how could they possibly understand what idiots they are managing one? An arts or management degree at 24yo in this line of work is a hardly going to be of any assistance, yet these are the incompetent yes men and women that management listen to.

The one fly in the ointment for them must be that the one person with any clout who realised what a bunch of utter morons these guys are and had the gumption to disagree with them, actually left and then busily set about creating an 'impossible to make money' premium carrier from a half baked LCC Virgin. Obviously a fluke, he is still wrong and Qantas management is correct. There will be a powerpoint presentation to support the view somewhere..


** Another way to look at it is this (if you are wise in the ways of management and didn't understand previous):
If Qantas weighs the same as a duck, it is a witch and therefore we must burn it.

Very simple really.

[neville_nobody]

as all are 'yes-men' there are no dissenting opinions - especially since JB left

Exactly. JB took everyone who actually knew what they were doing to Virgin.